So, who thinks Elan is one of the most 3D characters of the stick comic strip?

[Charles Phipps]

*raises hands*

I do.

For me, it's always been about the Elan. All of the characters started as archetypes in the storyline. Roy is the long suffering B.A. Felton (KOTDT) party leader/Charlie Brown type who has to deal with being the only guy to take adventuring seriously, Elan is the useless player character more interested in acting out than adventuring, Belkar is the guy interested in killing things, Haley is the rogue who screws the party, Var is the Wizard Rules-Lawyer.

Elan for me, slowly started evolving with the arc where he was lost. I then realized that his dynamic was independent of how he interplayed with everyone else but had a powerful effect on the others. He won me over as my favorite character because of his handling of the Sorceress Bandit Leader. I almost (and I mean almost) wish he wasn't attached to Haley because I would have loved some more Elanmantic episodes.

But what is Elan's character?

I mentioned Elan is Luke Skywalker. I believe that's because I think he's probably the only amongst the Order of the Stick whose an adventurer by choice. It's what he no doubt wanted to be from the moment he left his bar maid mother and he probably fully intended to go out and save the world. Now, I'm not denying Elan is a dumbass but I've met plenty of people in both college and the army who were stupider than Elan in real life. I often think he'd make a better NG than a CG because he's the embodiment of it in my mind.

Elan is probably the most well adjusted of the Order of the Stick emotionally. He's aware he's a hero and that it damn well may cost their lives but he's okay with that because who would not want to be a hero? It's sort of like he's a Silver Age comic book hero thrust into the Modern Age with all of the "Golly Gee whiz, I can FLY and isn't it nifty to beat up badguys?" He's incapable of angst and that's a rare enough quality in heroes because he's happy with what he's doing. Does this mean hes' incapable of anger or disgust? No, I don't think it is.

However, it seems it more alarms him on how it might do troubles to others than it does to others.

No, my travails with Roy are well known on these boards because I'd love to see Elan replace the Fighter Jockey but I think the chief guiding influence with our Bard is probably the Meatshield. Elan wants to be a genuine hero and having never met one before Roy, measures himself up to his friends' standards. Is he aware that Roy is disgusted with him? Probably in the same way my friends seem to utterly ignore I want to kill them, chop up their bodies, and hide the pieces in seven states. Roy has taken Elan into his party and has never outright kicked him out so I suspect he recognizes actions speak louder than words.

I think the word "naive" describes Elan more than "stupid." The character is built from a loving home environment that somehow kept him from being jaded to the rest of the world. He continues to believe the best in people, even when his brother is at his most villainous. The rejection of pragmatism in the face of ideals is probably one reason that so many people are divided in his usefulness.

Elan the Romantic is an element that also appeals to me a great deal. Cool stupid dudes get laid all the time in real life, so I doubt that Elan has no trouble with that. Clearly, he's more experienced than anyone in the group save probably Haley. However, it's a rare enough quality that Elan truly believes in love in its old fashioned wuggiest. Somehow, he manages to pull off cliche after cliche because he recognized what Shakespeare did in that it didn't matter whether they were overdone so long as they were done sincerely.

It's ironic that Elan is also the Trickster of the Group. I think Illusions have to appeal to Elan because the idea of forcing someone to like him through charming would be abhorrent to him. They are also a fairly non-violent way to deal with opponents. While he's stuck probably thousands of goblins in his time, Elan seems a fairly non-violent sort by nature by the fact that he did the unthinkable in D&D and SPARED his brother.

So, here's to Elan. The best of the rest!

[Dinkyass]

*claps* :smallsmile:

[Setra]

Nah, he's far too skinny to be 3d, I mean look! He's flat.

[Dunamin]

Elan has definitely deepened as a character, though I would not put him above Roy in terms of being a "fleshed out" character.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Elan *seems* like he was designed as the sterotypical stupid guy, and, sterotypically, of course, everyone loved him, so he got more charecter depth.

[yoshi927]

Well, not me. Your reasoning does have some merit, but I've never liked Elan. The day he takes over for Roy is the day I stop reading the comic. :smallbiggrin:

[Tirian]

I'd give Elan credit for "Most Improved" in terms of his characterization, but that's only because he was such a waste of air in Durokan's dungeon. As far as understanding his motivation for doing anything or his capacity for doing those things badly, I think that you're filling in your own characterizations more than taking anything that Rich has shown to us.

[TheNifty]

Well Charlie, as you know, I'm not quite as keen on Elan as you. To be more precise, it isn't so much that I dislike him as I think he's a very one-dimensional character, and doesn't have very much storytelling potential as a result of that. Heck, he isn't really a character at all. His personality changes from comic to comic, dependent on what the punchline is going to be, and I think you read a lot of characterization into Elan that just isn't there. What is his personality?

He has no motivations, no goals, no conflicts, no dreams, no secrets, no depth, no ANYTHING. His function is comic relief, and he serves it well, but he just isn't a well developed character, and as a result he doesn't work well in dramatic plotlines, except to reduce the tension.

As I said in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53609&page=4), he's the anti-Miko - a character I hated, but was sad to see die because of her excellent dramatic potential. Elan is likeable enough, but he’s so shallow that Elan-centric storylines are always going to be weaker than normal for the comic.


I mentioned Elan is Luke Skywalker.
I'm not going to quote the whole paragraph, but this is the worst example of what I was talking about earlier. You are reading a LOT of characterization into Elan that isn't present in the script. I can't think of any hint of an example of him being shown to be "the only [one] amongst the Order of the Stick whose an adventurer by choice." or "he probably fully intended to go out and save the world." It just isn't there. This next one is most egregious:


I often think he'd make a better NG than a CG because he's the embodiment of it in my mind.

But... he's a very chaotic character. There's dozens of examples in the comic of him behaving very chaotically, and nearly none of him reacting to a situation in a NG way. This is, I think another example of you reading things into his character that just aren’t there.


No, my travails with Roy are well known on these boards because I'd love to see Elan replace the Fighter Jockey

You really think anyone would follow him? he can't plan, has no grasp of tactics and is held in a sort of amused contempt by everyone except Hayley. He has no leadership ability, and the rest of OOTS have no confidence in him.


It's ironic that Elan is also the Trickster of the Group.

What? Why is that ironic? He's a chaotic good bard. It would be ironic if Durkon was the trickster, because he's innately humorless and lawful. Why is an inherently chaotic, immature and silly character as the trickster even slighty ironic? Once again, I think you are projecting a little on Ethan's character.

[Alfryd]

I believe that's because I think he's probably the only amongst the Order of the Stick whose an adventurer by choice.
Actually, there is evidence to suggest that Roy intended to embark on an adventuring career from a fairly early age.

Elan is probably the most well adjusted of the Order of the Stick emotionally.
Actually, Elan suffers from latent insecurity over his tactical inadequacies in planning and forethought, which is partly why he's desperate for Roy's approval. This, naturally, stems from the fact he's come darned close to killing his entire party several times over, which also makes him feel slightly guilty. And yet, not quite guilty enough to stop doing it.

The thing that has always irritated me about Elan is that he seems, effectively, to place his desire to have fun above and beyond the safety of those he cares about.

However, I wouldn't say that Elan is a particularly 3-dimensional character. He is somewhat more complicated than cursory inspection suggests, but a mind that underdeveloped simply can't have that many layers to it. You need a respectable intellect to fuel a good, convoluted, warping neurosis- Miko being the case in point par excellence.


Probably in the same way my friends seem to utterly ignore I want to kill them, chop up their bodies, and hide the pieces in seven states.
...Come again?

[Wolfman42666]

Two things, apart from Elan taking over I like your post.
The two things:
Roy isn't a jock, how did you come to that conclusion. If not for V he'd be the neediest of all of them. And I wouldn't count V as a nerd, ever.
Second "he continues to believe in the best of people" I direct you to the current comic and the reference to Belkar, I mean really. (Or are you implying that you subscribe to V's theory and therefore Belkar is not truly a person?:smallamused:)

[SurlySeraph]

I have to agree with TheNifty on pretty much everything that he said. Elan's certainly not one-dimensional, but he's a far less deep character than Miko, or Roy, or Haley. You're right to say that Elan is more naive than stupid, but doesn't that contradict your claim that he is more "experienced" than the rest of the party? Even if you meant "experienced" in a wink wink, nudge nudge, implied sexuality way, large amounts of sexual experience generally isn't associated with naive behavior, either in fiction or in the real world. Besides, I don't think someone can be simultaneously naive and "well-adjusted"; being naive implies that you simply haven't adjusted to the world yet. Elan is admirable in many ways - as you said before, he adventures out of unusually pure motives (to have fun, as opposed to his duty, to get money, to achieve ultimate power, or to become strong enough to massacre his home village), he always believes the best of people, and he is reluctant to hurt people. Unfortunately, his innocent well-meaning often nearly gets the party killed. He's innocent, but he doesn't have common sense yet. Elan is a very good person, but he's definitely not ideal; an ideal person wouldn't risk the lives of his friends (or his own life) just to have fun.


Probably in the same way my friends seem to utterly ignore I want to kill them, chop up their bodies, and hide the pieces in seven states.

What do you want to do to your enemies? Wanting to kill your friends, and "utterly destroy them" in this way makes me question your argument that Elan is Neutral Good, because it implies that you don't fully understand good. Good people don't want to kill their enemies, much less their friends. Are you implying that Elan is good because his desires are the opposite of yours?

[Kinneus]

These arguments strike me as silly. Even if Elan did take over, his first act as official leader would be to do everything in his power to get his surrogate big brother Roy ressurected.
The end result's the same.

[yoshi927]

These arguments strike me as silly. Even if Elan did take over, his first act as official leader would be to do everything in his power to get his surrogate big brother Roy ressurected.
The end result's the same.No, that'd be his second act. His FIRST act would be to hit himself on the head with a hammer. Repeatedly. :smallbiggrin:

[Charles Phipps]

I'm not going to quote the whole paragraph, but this is the worst example of what I was talking about earlier. You are reading a LOT of characterization into Elan that isn't present in the script. I can't think of any hint of an example of him being shown to be "the only [one] amongst the Order of the Stick whose an adventurer by choice." or "he probably fully intended to go out and save the world." It just isn't there. This next one is most egregious:

Actually, it seems fairly clear that Elan operates fully from the idea that he is an adventurer. Haley is there to rescue her father by raising his ransom, Durkon is because he's an exiled religious leader of a battle god, V is there for magic and loot, Belkar to kill stuff, and Roy to destroy Xykon. Elan has shown repeatedly no sign of being here for anything but to be a Bard and an adventurer.


But... he's a very chaotic character. There's dozens of examples in the comic of him behaving very chaotically, and nearly none of him reacting to a situation in a NG way. This is, I think another example of you reading things into his character that just aren’t there.

???

Chaotic characters rebel against Laws and refuse to follow anyone's lead but their own. Haley and Belkar are Chaotic Characters. Elan consistently follows Roy's lead and worries about the legal ramifications of things except when there's a greater good (rescuing Haley). Acting in an eccentric manner is not a sign of Chaotic good unless you count Albert Einstein as it.


You really think anyone would follow him? he can't plan, has no grasp of tactics and is held in a sort of amused contempt by everyone except Hayley. He has no leadership ability, and the rest of OOTS have no confidence in him.

I said "Fighter Jockey" not leader. Still, one of my favorite moments from the OOTS was where Roy assumed that Thog would be the leader because he's the Fighter. My reaction was "Duh, of course in any reasonable party, the Bard would be the leader!" Nale's Enchanter/Fighter/Rogue nature being amusingly just a Bard with the numbers filed off.


What? Why is that ironic? He's a chaotic good bard. It would be ironic if Durkon was the trickster, because he's innately humorless and lawful. Why is an inherently chaotic, immature and silly character as the trickster even slighty ironic? Once again, I think you are projecting a little on Ethan's character.

He seems to honest and guileless to be a Trickster to be honest.


...Come again?

My friends suffer what I like to term "Once they get on a roll, they refuse to stop when it well stops being amusing....if it ever was." This is especially true in regards to what they think passes for humor in a variety of jokes that aren't particularly funny the first time around but amount to acting strange.

After the 11th hour of it in a car ride, I dare you to just silently wish their deaths ;-)

In other words, against all people's assumptions, I sympathize with Roy's plight in the early comics very much.


Actually, there is evidence to suggest that Roy intended to embark on an adventuring career from a fairly early age.

I always assumed that was because of his father's quest against Xykon but I remember that Roy attended Fighter School so I assume it's a valid career choice in his hometown. I stand corrected on that end.


You're right to say that Elan is more naive than stupid, but doesn't that contradict your claim that he is more "experienced" than the rest of the party? Even if you meant "experienced" in a wink wink, nudge nudge, implied sexuality way, large amounts of sexual experience generally isn't associated with naive behavior, either in fiction or in the real world.

Again, going with some of my "Cool but Stupid" friends, I find that there's plenty of them that would trust their car keys to a guy off the street who asked to borrow their car but get laid every weekend.

So maybe, knowing Elans in real life helps me appreciate the character.

[TheNifty]

Chaotic characters rebel against Laws and refuse to follow anyone's lead but their own. Haley and Belkar are Chaotic Characters. Elan consistently follows Roy's lead and worries about the legal ramifications of things except when there's a greater good (rescuing Haley). Acting in an eccentric manner is not a sign of Chaotic good unless you count Albert Einstein as it.

*Dies a little inside* This is due more to a very very common misunderstanding of what "Lawful" and "Chaotic" mean in the D&D system, then.

The third edition D&D rules define law and chaos as follows:

Law implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.

Chaos implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them.

That's quoting verbatim. As you can see, Elan is clearly a chaotic character under these guidelines (as is Albert Einstein). This is a very very very common mistake. We have this argument frequently in the D20 forum, probably because it's using the words in an unusual way. For instance, under a strict interpretation of these rules, Frank Castle, the freakin' Punisher, is a Lawful character, whilst Captain America is Chaotic. Considering the respect the latter and contempt the former have for the law, you can see why this is bizarre.

[Dr._Weird]

(KOTDT)

King of Town da Third? :smallconfused:

[theinsulabot]

not even one tiny bit actually. his has always been pretty darn 2d, he has been bi polar, alternating from happy go lucky to pessimistic and sullen, which gives the illusion of the third dimension, but its not. and its a pretty poor substitute to

[Aris Katsaris]

When have we seen Elan *ever* be "pessimistic and sullen"?

Elan's a very well written character. I won't argue whether he's "deep" or "three-dimensional" because IMO people use these words quite confusingly and with different meanings -- as if a character that wears his heart on his sleeve is somehow inferior to a character with secrets and silences.

Elan's basic attitude of straightforwardness and simplicity has been used to great effect. E.g. One of Elan's most admirable qualities is his ability to cut straight through bull**** -- see http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0400.html as the most obvious example, but also things like http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0478.html or http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html

It's kinda obvious what would make Haley fall in love with him. When he tells her something like "I'm proud of you", http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0223.html, she knows it has worth.

[Yoritomo Himeko]

*raises hands*

I do.

For me, it's always been about the Elan. All of the characters started as archetypes in the storyline. Roy is the long suffering B.A. Felton (KOTDT) party leader/Charlie Brown type who has to deal with being the only guy to take adventuring seriously, Elan is the useless player character more interested in acting out than adventuring, Belkar is the guy interested in killing things, Haley is the rogue who screws the party, Var is the Wizard Rules-Lawyer.

Elan for me, slowly started evolving with the arc where he was lost. I then realized that his dynamic was independent of how he interplayed with everyone else but had a powerful effect on the others. He won me over as my favorite character because of his handling of the Sorceress Bandit Leader. I almost (and I mean almost) wish he wasn't attached to Haley because I would have loved some more Elanmantic episodes.

But what is Elan's character?

I mentioned Elan is Luke Skywalker. I believe that's because I think he's probably the only amongst the Order of the Stick whose an adventurer by choice. It's what he no doubt wanted to be from the moment he left his bar maid mother and he probably fully intended to go out and save the world. Now, I'm not denying Elan is a dumbass but I've met plenty of people in both college and the army who were stupider than Elan in real life. I often think he'd make a better NG than a CG because he's the embodiment of it in my mind.

Elan is probably the most well adjusted of the Order of the Stick emotionally. He's aware he's a hero and that it damn well may cost their lives but he's okay with that because who would not want to be a hero? It's sort of like he's a Silver Age comic book hero thrust into the Modern Age with all of the "Golly Gee whiz, I can FLY and isn't it nifty to beat up badguys?" He's incapable of angst and that's a rare enough quality in heroes because he's happy with what he's doing. Does this mean hes' incapable of anger or disgust? No, I don't think it is.

However, it seems it more alarms him on how it might do troubles to others than it does to others.

No, my travails with Roy are well known on these boards because I'd love to see Elan replace the Fighter Jockey but I think the chief guiding influence with our Bard is probably the Meatshield. Elan wants to be a genuine hero and having never met one before Roy, measures himself up to his friends' standards. Is he aware that Roy is disgusted with him? Probably in the same way my friends seem to utterly ignore I want to kill them, chop up their bodies, and hide the pieces in seven states. Roy has taken Elan into his party and has never outright kicked him out so I suspect he recognizes actions speak louder than words.

I think the word "naive" describes Elan more than "stupid." The character is built from a loving home environment that somehow kept him from being jaded to the rest of the world. He continues to believe the best in people, even when his brother is at his most villainous. The rejection of pragmatism in the face of ideals is probably one reason that so many people are divided in his usefulness.

Elan the Romantic is an element that also appeals to me a great deal. Cool stupid dudes get laid all the time in real life, so I doubt that Elan has no trouble with that. Clearly, he's more experienced than anyone in the group save probably Haley. However, it's a rare enough quality that Elan truly believes in love in its old fashioned wuggiest. Somehow, he manages to pull off cliche after cliche because he recognized what Shakespeare did in that it didn't matter whether they were overdone so long as they were done sincerely.

It's ironic that Elan is also the Trickster of the Group. I think Illusions have to appeal to Elan because the idea of forcing someone to like him through charming would be abhorrent to him. They are also a fairly non-violent way to deal with opponents. While he's stuck probably thousands of goblins in his time, Elan seems a fairly non-violent sort by nature by the fact that he did the unthinkable in D&D and SPARED his brother.

So, here's to Elan. The best of the rest!

I like him because he's one of those people who try to look for the good in everyone. Unless they give him a very good reason not to, he likes everyone he meets. He's got a great heart and is willing to help everyone.

I'm almost positive this next story arc is going to revolve around Elan. He has been really improving his spellcasting abilities lately and is getting some more character development. It'll be worth the wait. :smallsmile:


:elan:

[RAGE KING!]

W00T!

I still like Xykon's personality more, but i cant deny what you said.

[Tulisin]

*raises hands*

I do.

For me, it's always been about the Elan. All of the characters started as archetypes in the storyline. Roy is the long suffering B.A. Felton (KOTDT) party leader/Charlie Brown type who has to deal with being the only guy to take adventuring seriously, Elan is the useless player character more interested in acting out than adventuring, Belkar is the guy interested in killing things, Haley is the rogue who screws the party, Var is the Wizard Rules-Lawyer.

...Durkon is the guy nobody ever remembers to mention...

[theinsulabot]

When have we seen Elan *ever* be "pessimistic and sullen"?

Elan's a very well written character. I won't argue whether he's "deep" or "three-dimensional" because IMO people use these words quite confusingly and with different meanings -- as if a character that wears his heart on his sleeve is somehow inferior to a character with secrets and silences.

Elan's basic attitude of straightforwardness and simplicity has been used to great effect. E.g. One of Elan's most admirable qualities is his ability to cut straight through bull**** -- see http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0400.html as the most obvious example, but also things like http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0478.html or http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html

It's kinda obvious what would make Haley fall in love with him. When he tells her something like "I'm proud of you", http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0223.html, she knows it has worth.

you know, those really werent the words i wanted to use, but they were the closest to a few simple switches he goes through, so i fit em in. basically, you seem him get down on himself for things that weren't any of his business nor within his ability to alter, and he has a real desire to worry about any situation he isn't mixed up in, as if his mere presence would be a miracle cure for everything from a horde of goblin's to another of nale's plots.

at any rate, if he is as deep or deeper in trouble he is that normal happy go lucky fellow we all barely tolerate, but if he has to watch from the sidelines, he changes modes. i don't think thats really 3 dimensional at all, and its the only real shift he has from his standard cliche 2 dimensional personality

[The Wanderer]

So, who thinks Elan is one of the most 3D characters of the stick comic strip?

... no. Just no.

For so many reasons.

[Elandegenerate]

how can you NOT like elan?

and dont do that....(lets be nice) silly thing of describing his character but with only the perspective of someone who dislikes him (the latter part of that bringing bias into the picture)

Elan is who he is and he is himself perfectly.

its like those fools who think they are a fan of dynasty(or samurai) warriors, and hate a character cus he is stupid and or loud. Thats what they are and they are themselves well. Not saying you can dislike people cus they are stupid and loud, but these people dislike them as a character. It would be live me hating Xykon cus he is evil. He is evil, very evil, and i love him for it, cus he is a perfect villian, because he has everything i dislike.

[Mr.Ace]

Elan is a perfect character-he's an idiot, so he's completley crucial to making side, sub, and even main plots. His sheer luck seems to get him out of everything, and his love for his teammates (even Belkar, I think, even though the feelings aren't mutual) are complete.

.....

Besides all that crap, he's a lady's man! He snook out of the bandit camp just so he could make out with the leader! Bitc*in'!

:elan:+:haley:+:miko:+:sabine:=Elan's plan.

[TheNifty]

how can you NOT like elan?

I like Elan, I just don't think he is, according to the thread title; "one of the most 3D characters of the stick comic strip".

He's quite a shallow character, and while that isn't always bad (lots of popular fictional characters are quite shallow, it lets the reader project their own feelings onto them*), it does mean that he isn't as good at evoking drama as some of the other characters.


* the main character in a lot of action movies, comedies, etc is the "everyman" - easy to empathize with, not much depth, no hidden secrets or hard to understand motivations.

[Kish]

King of Town da Third? :smallconfused:

Knights of the Dinner Table.

[Krytha]

I think it's fairly clear that this thread is attracting people who looooove Elan and then those who don't. Elan isn't a well rounded character just yet however (which means he's taking more time than other characters despite having an intense amount of screen time - which in turn implies that most of his screen time is useless). When I see Elan, I think "oh boy, what's the joke this time" with all the words and none of the enthusiasm. That's what he is. Comic relief. And in light of that, there aren't a lot of other things to look for in him. Generally, it goes "awww Elan's so cute trying to be all grown up" and then "haha Elan's really messed up this time and everyone is in trouble so Roy is going to be mad". Tell me it doesn't.

[Hushdawg]

I like Elan because he reminds me of myself... when I was 16...

[Aris Katsaris]

And in light of that, there aren't a lot of other things to look for in him. Generally, it goes "awww Elan's so cute trying to be all grown up" and then "haha Elan's really messed up this time and everyone is in trouble so Roy is going to be mad". Tell me it doesn't.

It doesn't.

Honestly it seems to me like you've just gotten a general impression from Elan from the first 10 strips of the comic. Since then Elan has often proven *more* grown up than much of the other cast.

Just recently he justly berated Varsuvius for not even trying -- and he was *right*.

He accused Roy about how he "liked liked" Miko despite the way she treated them -- and Elan was *right*.

He cut straight through Haley's nonsense with the simple and perfect and plain smooch followed by a "wanna make out?" -- and he was *right*.

So, yeah, I'm telling you it doesn't. Elan messes up from lack of intelligence or forethought, but he's also the one who helps clean up the messes that other characters help create through deeper characterization issues -- Roy's shallow attraction, Varsuvius' overreliance on the arcane and disparagement of everything else, Haley's insecurities.

*Those* characteristics are more typically "juvenile" than the characteristics Elan displays ; so it's kinda of an unjust belittling of the character to say that Elan "tries" to act grown up. If that's true of him, then it's doubly true for every other character in OotS -- even though age-wise he's actually indeed younger than the rest of the cast.

[TheNifty]

Since then Elan has often proven *more* grown up than much of the other cast.


And your evidence for this is: Elan has been right three times out of nearly five hundred strips*, so therefore he's grown up and mature. Well, color me impressed. Once again, I have to ask; is there a secret comic you guys are reading? 'Cause it clearly isn't OOTS.


*Two of which were fairly trivial; Everyone not just Elan, criticized Roy over his siding with Miko, and Hayley obviously wanted him to move on her (she only told him so like three times). Berating V was the right thing to do at least.

[Mugen Nightgale]

Elan is a good character but all oost's are. People just say that he grew up faster because he took that prestige class and was part of the process of healing of Haley's voice and that was main theme of many comics. But every oost has lvl and improved as a character. U just see Elan because he is always saying "look im useful!". I mean, look at Belkar making his way around hundreds of hobbos as the "Sexy shoe less flame thrower avatar of death" or Roy being a diplomatic leader always saving their asses without using his sword. Haley, V and Durkon too they grew up but in a most discreet way.

[Krytha]

So you got 3 moments out of 482 strips? I seem to recall putting a "generally" in there somewhere. People have compiled lists in the past of Elan's foolishness and they have far exceeded any of those events, so I could turn around and say you've jumped to a conclusion about Elan in the face of overwhelming evidence.

Your examples of Elan "solving" problems are due to his lack of forethought and not some amount of conscientiousness. If you don't even understand the problem at hand, how can you say Elan is actually doing anything? He's just bumbling along, being his one-dimensional self and they just HAPPEN to coincide with a positive result. That doesn't make him a deeper character.

Elan wasn't right about V, he didn't even understand the problem V faced. Was he expecting V to go after those goblins with his dagger (assuming he has one)? Probably! If Elan hadn't announced that he hadn't used the vast majority of his spells (as usual), V would've turned around and resumed his imitation of a NPC. So it isn't that Elan berated V into doing something constructive, V was the one who had Elan do something useful because he knows how to make things work in any given situation. Left alone, Elan probably would've found a way to sink the ship with his rapier.

The other examples are demonstrations of naivety which is perfectly in line with his straight forward "kid" characterization. There's no deep motivation in there when he kisses Haley (he wants to) or when he's talking to Roy (Miko mean to me! Roy not nice to me! WAaaahh). And these are the highlights of Elan's career in solving interpersonal problems? None of these things make him a deeper character, they're just situations that didn't have that much potential to go explosively wrong ( barring the dwarf and his barrels of TNT).

[Hushdawg]

I still say that my favorite Elan moment EVER is when he taught everyone to ride the horses.

That was THE best EVAR.

[The Wanderer]

It doesn't.

Honestly it seems to me like you've just gotten a general impression from Elan from the first 10 strips of the comic. Since then Elan has often proven *more* grown up than much of the other cast.

Just recently he justly berated Varsuvius for not even trying -- and he was *right*.

He accused Roy about how he "liked liked" Miko despite the way she treated them -- and Elan was *right*.

He cut straight through Haley's nonsense with the simple and perfect and plain smooch followed by a "wanna make out?" -- and he was *right*.

So, yeah, I'm telling you it doesn't. Elan messes up from lack of intelligence or forethought, but he's also the one who helps clean up the messes that other characters help create through deeper characterization issues -- Roy's shallow attraction, Varsuvius' overreliance on the arcane and disparagement of everything else, Haley's insecurities.

*Those* characteristics are more typically "juvenile" than the characteristics Elan displays ; so it's kinda of an unjust belittling of the character to say that Elan "tries" to act grown up. If that's true of him, then it's doubly true for every other character in OotS -- even though age-wise he's actually indeed younger than the rest of the cast.

In addition to the way everyone else has already debunked your points, you must be working with rather different definitions of berate and accuse than normal.

Saying "Oh V, now you're just being silly! If I let myself get hung up on doing things that only had any actual chance of success, I'd never do anything! I mean, I cast a spell today, and it worked! And we all know how much my illusions suck!" is not berating someone.

On the other hand, saying "Look you selfish, arrogant elvish prick, there are people who are going to die if you don't help us, because regardless of what you think you can still help out. So are you going to sit here feeling sorry for yourself and sulking about your wounded pride, or are you at least going to try?!!" would be berating someone.

Similarly, saying "I was thinking, why would Roy like a girl who is so mean to his friends, and I can't figure it out. Unless you like her more than us. Is that it Roy? Do you like Miko more than you like me?" isn't an accusation.

Saying something like "Look Roy, we've all fought beside, some of us have almost died doing it. We're you're friends, we care about you, we've been through a lot together and we've put it all on the line for each other, and you're throwing it away Over a nutcase who doesn't even like you. At all. Don't you realize this? Don't you care about what you're doing here?" would be closer to a true accusation.

Elan did show any extra depth or sign of being rounded, he did what he always did: bumbled along as the innocent, naive and silly comic relief and just happened to say something that worked instead of sticking his foot in his mouth.

Also, you seem rather hung up on the idea that being right makes someone a better character or such. I want to refer you to an old, pre-digital clock saying "Even a stopped clock is right twice a day".

[Aris Katsaris]

And your evidence for this is: Elan has been right three times out of nearly five hundred strips*,


So you got 3 moments out of 482 strips?

No, three times are the examples I *showed* you, if you are asking for more examples, then please ask for them, rather than assume that I don't have more to show. I chose the ones that concerned deep problems faced by other other characters.

If you want three more examples of Elan being significantly "right" (about lesser matters), I could point to http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html,
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0199.html


Everyone not just Elan, criticized Roy over his siding with Miko

No, some people (Haley mainly) criticized Roy for dragging them along to Azure City because of his attraction to her. Elan is the only one that challenged his attraction to such a nasty person itself. Elan cut to the point, as wisely as ever.


Elan wasn't right about V, he didn't even understand the problem V faced.

The problem V faced was thinking he/she was useless. Elan was completely right about that, and V was completely wrong about it.


Was he expecting V to go after those goblins with his dagger (assuming he has one)? Probably!

Sorry, I'm not discussing silly hypotheticals here. Elan expected V to try, when V had given up. V ended up figuring out that his INT can be used for more than to cast arcane spells with.

Elan was on the right and V was on the wrong, perhaps not because of Elan's intelligence but because of Elan's will. No amount of babble will avoid this pesky little fact.


If Elan hadn't announced that he hadn't used the vast majority of his spells (as usual), V would've turned around and resumed his imitation of a NPC.

More hypotheticals? Fine, I'll oblige. If V had done that, then he'd still have been on the wrong, and Elan would still have been on the right.


Left alone, Elan probably would've found a way to sink the ship with his rapier.

More hypotheticals, cutie? Can't you argue using only the facts themselves?


He's just bumbling along, being his one-dimensional self and they just HAPPEN to coincide with a positive result.

No, straightforwardness, honesty and simplicity is not coincidence, any more than Samwise's devotion to Frodo and the happy results of such was a coincidence.

INT is not the only significant attribute a character can have.


There's no deep motivation in there when he kisses Haley (he wants to)

More importantly *she* also wants to. And Elan recognizes that, despite Haley's silly babble about putting the whole affair behind them and going on with business as usual.


(Miko mean to me! Roy not nice to me! WAaaahh)

I don't remember the Waah. But point is that Elan's wise enough to put the situation in plain black and white for Roy to see.


And these are the highlights of Elan's career in solving interpersonal problems?

Yes. Given that he managed to resolve lengthy frustrating dead-end situations to the benefit of all involved, I'd not call it a bad resume.

[Aris Katsaris]

In addition to the way everyone else has already debunked your points, you must be working with rather different definitions of berate and accuse than normal.

Saying "Oh V, now you're just being silly! If I let myself get hung up on doing things that only had any actual chance of success, I'd never do anything! I mean, I cast a spell today, and it worked! And we all know how much my illusions suck!" is not berating someone.

On the other hand, saying "Look you selfish, arrogant elvish prick,

Berating is relative. "silly" is the equivalent Elan berating for your "selfish, arrong elvish prick".


"Do you like Miko more than you like me?" isn't an accusation.

I'd argue that it is, and I think that Roy certainly saw it as such.


Also, you seem rather hung up on the idea that being right makes someone a better character or such. I want to refer you to an old, pre-digital clock saying "Even a stopped clock is right twice a day".

Except Elan's not a stopped clock, he's not right by coincidence at all, he's very consistently right on two very important issues -- on how people should behave, and how best to have fun.

He's also consistently right on a third (lesser) issue, the conventions of the genre.

If all these are coincidence, then it's a very bizarrely consistent coincidence.

[Lamoid]

3-D characters don't belong in 2-D comics... they're less funny is all.

[TheNifty]

If you want three more examples of Elan being significantly "right" (about lesser matters), I could point to

Lets see... in the first, I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to be looking at. Elan is wise because he doesn't care if people mock bards? is that it?
In the second, Elan rides a horse. Truly, his wisdom is like unto that of Solomon.
In the third, "Rain as a harbinger of the dramatic" is a freakin' 4th-wall-breaking joke.

Seriously, I'm trying not to dismiss your opinions out of hand, but give me a break here. Your first has him being easygoing and cheerful, your second has him riding a horse, your third has him pointing out storytelling cliches. This is the best you got?


No, some people (Haley mainly) criticized Roy for dragging them along to Azure City because of his attraction to her. Elan is the only one that challenged his attraction to such a nasty person itself. Elan cut to the point, as wisely as ever.


... I know we've joked about this before, but you really aren't reading the same comic as me, are you? Re-read that page and tell me if that is actually apparent, or something you are reading into it.



INT is not the only significant attribute a character can have.
And I never said it was. Just because Elan has low WIS and INT scores doesn't make him useless or a bad character, but it does make it more likely that he doesn't have hidden depths. What you see is what you get with Elan, and I'm a little surprised you think he's some sort of wise sage solving all interpersonal conflicts while pretending to be a dullard.

[Aris Katsaris]

Your first has him being easygoing and cheerful, your second has him riding a horse, your third has him pointing out storytelling cliches. This is the best you got?

Happiness, helpfulness and understanding, yes, though I'm not surprised that you disparage them.

I guess that Belkar is so very more "grown-up" for being constantly angry, or Varsuuvius for taking herself so seriously, or Roy for never being able to laugh at himself, or Haley for tying herself in knots over whether some guy likes her.

You know what? Nevermind. All the attributes that I consider infantile you obviously consider "grown-up" and vice-versa. Elan is grown-up for my definition of grown-up, Varsuvius/Roy/Haley/Belkar are grown-up for *your* definition of it, let's leave it at that.

[Senna]

I don’t like Elan personality-wise, let’s get that out of the way right off. (I also dislike Roy though, so at least I’m equal-opportunity J )But while I don’t think he’s the most well-rounded character in the strip, I don’t think he’s just comic relief as so many people seem to be assuming.

I look at Elan as kind of the humanizing element, the conscience if you will, of the OotS. He’s got good people skills (and this is NOT just an effect of being upbeat and happy. Happy people can be as clueless abut what makes people tick as angry people) Let’s take for one example him asking Roy why Roy likes Miko. Everyone else hates Miko because SHE annoys THEM. Elan doesn’t seem to care so much about her treatment of him, but seems more worried for Roy being with someone who’s flat-out mean to him. (Which I think sets up the counterpoint to Roy, who’s very smart and able but shown to be rather people-stupid on multiple occasions).

He’s also the most consistently GOOD character. I know we’ve seen both Roy and V seem embarrassed to be caught in certain actions by him (Roy’s willingness to abandon a party member, V’s hiding instead of trying to find/help his team). By all appearances he tries to do what is good, not just what is best (or what is best for him)

He’s also a simple person. Simple doesn’t have to mean shallow. He’s very aware of himself. That’s probably not the best way to say it, but… I guess, he seems to make decisions looking at what will let him sleep at night, at what's right or good. I don’t think that’s *inherently* bad. Not everyone’s goals need to be world-shattering and not everyone’s motivations need to be sweeping or "deep".

I think when you have characters with as big goals and motivations and flaws as most of the group, having ones with smaller and more simple goals and abilities is needed to just keep it from being Too Much. So… most rounded? No. One-trick pony? Also no.

Just my $0.02

[The Wanderer]

... I know we've joked about this before, but you really aren't reading the same comic as me, are you?

I think there must be a bunch of different OOTS comics out there. Because in one Miko's a hero who is going to join with the Order, in another Elan is wise, in a third Hinjo is a jerk, in a fourth Redcloak is Xykon's boss, etc.

We'll have to ask rich where he's posting all these universe strips, and why people keep commenting on them here. :smallwink:

[VanBuren]

I don't think berating is really the right word for that. The word means to scold angrily, and it didn't seem quite like that. Seemed more like that Elan was reassuring V that V was not useless.

[TheNifty]

Happiness, helpfulness and understanding, yes, though I'm not surprised that you disparage them.

So now we're moving on to personal attacks then? *sighs* You really expect me to dignify that with an answer?

[VanBuren]

Berating is relative. "silly" is the equivalent Elan berating for your "selfish, arrong elvish prick".

But berating requires anger. I don't believe there was any anger in what Elan said. Granted, we can't tell truly because it's written and not spoken, but since you're arguing the positive (he is angry) then the burden of proof rests upon you.

[TheNifty]

So now we're moving on to personal attacks then? *sighs* You really expect me to dignify that with an answer?

I will, cause I'm feeling generous. Just because I don't consider Elan to be a deep character, doesn't mean I think the ideals he has are wrong. Nor is there anything wrong with being idealistic; one of my favorite comic book characters is Captain America, whose possibly the most idealistic character in fiction. Idealism doesn't necessarily imply shallowness; the fact that Elan happens to be both idealistic and shallow is correlation, not causation.


You know what? Nevermind. All the attributes that I consider infantile you obviously consider "grown-up" and vice-versa. Elan is grown-up for my definition of grown-up, Varsuvius/Roy/Haley/Belkar are grown-up for *your* definition of it, let's leave it at that.

Then you are wrong. Sorry, but Elan is consistently immature throughout the story and I'm surprised even his fans don't see that. Immaturity isn't always a bad thing, you know. It's possible to like an immature character.

Also, when have I ever said the rest of OOTS are mature? They are more so than Elan (with the possible exception of Belkar), but that isn't exactly hard.

[Krytha]

No, three times are the examples I *showed* you, if you are asking for more examples, then please ask for them, rather than assume that I don't have more to show. I chose the ones that concerned deep problems faced by other other characters.

If you want three more examples of Elan being significantly "right" (about lesser matters), I could point to http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html,
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0199.html
-
No, some people (Haley mainly) criticized Roy for dragging them along to Azure City because of his attraction to her. Elan is the only one that challenged his attraction to such a nasty person itself. Elan cut to the point, as wisely as ever.
-
The problem V faced was thinking he/she was useless. Elan was completely right about that, and V was completely wrong about it.
-
Sorry, I'm not discussing silly hypotheticals here. Elan expected V to try, when V had given up. V ended up figuring out that his INT can be used for more than to cast arcane spells with.
-
Elan was on the right and V was on the wrong, perhaps not because of Elan's intelligence but because of Elan's will. No amount of babble will avoid this pesky little fact.
-
More hypotheticals? Fine, I'll oblige. If V had done that, then he'd still have been on the wrong, and Elan would still have been on the right.
-
More hypotheticals, cutie? Can't you argue using only the facts themselves?
-
No, straightforwardness, honesty and simplicity is not coincidence, any more than Samwise's devotion to Frodo and the happy results of such was a coincidence.
-INT is not the only significant attribute a character can have.
-
More importantly *she* also wants to. And Elan recognizes that, despite Haley's silly babble about putting the whole affair behind them and going on with business as usual.
-
I don't remember the Waah. But point is that Elan's wise enough to put the situation in plain black and white for Roy to see.
-
Yes. Given that he managed to resolve lengthy frustrating dead-end situations to the benefit of all involved, I'd not call it a bad resume.

Uh huh... ok, well condescending comments aside, you provided more insignificant examples (which you cheerfully admit). Blah blah, yep, I'm dealing only in conjecture while you state things like Elan does X wisely - as if that makes it a fact. I am using past evidence to look for future trends. I hear people in the financial district do that a lot, but I guess they are getting paid far too much money for guess work. Next... umm, no. Elan being his usual self in these situations isn't a sign of superior interpersonal skills. Where was his "wisdom" on New Years eve? Shouldn't he have magically sensed Haley's indecision then and just "cut through the bull****"? No. Elan is Elan is Elan. Circumstances change, but he doesn't act in a special way to cause problems to go away.

Most people will agree that your main man Elan is not all you make him out to be.

[TheNifty]

Quoted from "The Tao of Pooh":

One of the basic principles of Taoism is P'U, the Uncarved Block. The essence of the Uncarved Block is that things in their original simplicity contain their own natural power, power that is easily spoiled and lost when that simplicity is changed. This principle applies not only to things, but to people as well. Or Bears. Which brings us to Pooh, the very Epitome of the Uncarved Block. When you discard arrogance, complexity, and a few, other things that get in the way, sooner or later you will discover that simple, childlike, and mysterious secret known to those of the Uncarved Block: Life is Fun. Along with that comes the ability to do things spontaneously and have them work, odd as that may appear to others at times. As Piglet put it in 'Winnie-the-Pooh', "Pooh hasn't much Brain, but he never comes to any harm. He does silly things and they turn out right."

Remind you of anyone, Elan lovers? :amused:

[Daimbert]

It doesn't.

Honestly it seems to me like you've just gotten a general impression from Elan from the first 10 strips of the comic. Since then Elan has often proven *more* grown up than much of the other cast.

Just recently he justly berated Varsuvius for not even trying -- and he was *right*.

He accused Roy about how he "liked liked" Miko despite the way she treated them -- and Elan was *right*.

He cut straight through Haley's nonsense with the simple and perfect and plain smooch followed by a "wanna make out?" -- and he was *right*.

So, yeah, I'm telling you it doesn't. Elan messes up from lack of intelligence or forethought, but he's also the one who helps clean up the messes that other characters help create through deeper characterization issues -- Roy's shallow attraction, Varsuvius' overreliance on the arcane and disparagement of everything else, Haley's insecurities.

*Those* characteristics are more typically "juvenile" than the characteristics Elan displays ; so it's kinda of an unjust belittling of the character to say that Elan "tries" to act grown up. If that's true of him, then it's doubly true for every other character in OotS -- even though age-wise he's actually indeed younger than the rest of the cast.

Oddly enough, the problems that Elan fixes are BECAUSE he is juvenile and somewhat shallow as a character, not indications that he isn't. All of the examples you give above are of cases where the characters are OVERANALYZING the complexities of the situation. In Roy's example I believe that he even comments that it's more complicated than Elan is making it out to be. For Roy, as he himself puts it, she seems to be everything he ever thought he wanted -- although the attitude grates on him a bit and makes him, in some sense, dislike his supposed ideal woman. V's case is still more than just a disparagement of anything other than the arcane, and more a notion that since V is built to rely on and use the arcane, V is useless without it (it's hardly a solution to that problem to simply have V educate Elan on how to use HIS arcane power appropriately). And Haley's comments also have a lot to do not just with her insecurities -- even if they are spawned by them -- but with her belief that an unrequired situation (and heck, even a requited one) would be an awkward situation for the party and it might be better to just ignore it.

So what is Elan's response? Well, for Roy, it's to ask the overly simplistic questions about whether Roy likes Miko better than them, and he's willing to let Miko treat EVERYONE badly (one may wonder about that, since Elan himself annoys Roy no end). For V, it's to say simplistically that he should try anyway ... even if he has no chance of succeeding (and note again that it's V who realizes that he/she can actually BE effective ... in guiding Elan in HIS use of arcane power). For Haley, it's to simplistically ignore all the consequences and just go with what feels right. These are all simple and juvenile traits. Adults GENERALLY learn that things are generally not as simple as they may seem, but they get caught up in overanalyzing and inventing complexities sometimes. Sometimes, things are SIMPLER than they appear as well [grin].

So Elan is effective in these situations because he simply doesn't grasp the complexity of the situations ... which is good, since the complexity doesn't matter as much as the other characters thought it did. But that's simply a consequence OF his simple and shallow nature, not a refutation of it.

[TheNifty]

So Elan is effective in these situations because he simply doesn't grasp the complexity of the situations ... which is good, since the complexity doesn't matter as much as the other characters thought it did. But that's simply a consequence OF his simple and shallow nature, not a refutation of it.

Exactly! "While Eeyore frets, and Piglet hesitates, and Rabbit calculates, and Owl pontificates, Pooh just is."

I have no idea where I'm going with this.

[Daimbert]

Happiness, helpfulness and understanding, yes, though I'm not surprised that you disparage them.

I guess that Belkar is so very more "grown-up" for being constantly angry, or Varsuuvius for taking herself so seriously, or Roy for never being able to laugh at himself, or Haley for tying herself in knots over whether some guy likes her.

You know what? Nevermind. All the attributes that I consider infantile you obviously consider "grown-up" and vice-versa. Elan is grown-up for my definition of grown-up, Varsuvius/Roy/Haley/Belkar are grown-up for *your* definition of it, let's leave it at that.

Belkar's anger is another form of immaturity or a lack of wisdom, as evidenced by the strip where his Wisdom is boosted to allow him to heal Elan.

As for the others: For Roy and V, yes. Those traits are the consequences of growing up and taking things seriously. Yes, they've taken them too far, but they take life seriously, and not as a big joke like Elan (see http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html ; Elan upsets -- rightly in my opinion -- V by not taking his vocation seriously, which took V a lot of work to get to. And in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html , Elan doesn't even take his OWN vocation/class seriously).

Haley is an intermediate case; she's more serious and mature than Elan and Belkar, but up until the siege is still somewhat immature, even as evidenced by the very problem you bring up.

While some advances have been made in some characters (Elan is one, but not by that much; Haley is the biggest) this comic seems to sum it all up nicely:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0075.html

Neither Belkar, Haley, or Elan are considered responsible enough to take blame FOR FORGETTING ABOUT DURKON ... even Elan, whose goodness should at least make him CARE about Durkon ...

[Krytha]

Wow Daimbert. That's like... 5 gold stars right there.

[TheNifty]

While some advances have been made in some characters (Elan is one, but not by that much; Haley is the biggest) this comic seems to sum it all up nicely:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0075.html

Neither Belkar, Haley, or Elan are considered responsible enough to take blame FOR FORGETTING ABOUT DURKON ... even Elan, whose goodness should at least make him CARE about Durkon ...

Nicely put.

[Sir Conkey]

If standing in front of a exploding cave entrance for a dramatic scene isnt chaotic then I don't know what is. Or the idea to dress Thog up as a leprachaun, that was just weird.

[Lizard Lord]

Well Charlie, as you know, I'm not quite as keen on Elan as you. To be more precise, it isn't so much that I dislike him as I think he's a very one-dimensional character, and doesn't have very much storytelling potential as a result of that. Heck, he isn't really a character at all. His personality changes from comic to comic, dependent on what the punchline is going to be, and I think you read a lot of characterization into Elan that just isn't there. What is his personality?

He has no motivations, no goals, no conflicts, no dreams, no secrets, no depth, no ANYTHING. His function is comic relief, and he serves it well, but he just isn't a well developed character, and as a result he doesn't work well in dramatic plotlines, except to reduce the tension.

As I said in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53609&page=4), he's the anti-Miko - a character I hated, but was sad to see die because of her excellent dramatic potential. Elan is likeable enough, but he’s so shallow that Elan-centric storylines are always going to be weaker than normal for the comic.


I'm not going to quote the whole paragraph, but this is the worst example of what I was talking about earlier. You are reading a LOT of characterization into Elan that isn't present in the script. I can't think of any hint of an example of him being shown to be "the only [one] amongst the Order of the Stick whose an adventurer by choice." or "he probably fully intended to go out and save the world." It just isn't there. This next one is most egregious:



But... he's a very chaotic character. There's dozens of examples in the comic of him behaving very chaotically, and nearly none of him reacting to a situation in a NG way. This is, I think another example of you reading things into his character that just aren’t there.



You really think anyone would follow him? he can't plan, has no grasp of tactics and is held in a sort of amused contempt by everyone except Hayley. He has no leadership ability, and the rest of OOTS have no confidence in him.



What? Why is that ironic? He's a chaotic good bard. It would be ironic if Durkon was the trickster, because he's innately humorless and lawful. Why is an inherently chaotic, immature and silly character as the trickster even slighty ironic? Once again, I think you are projecting a little on Ethan's character.


I agree with you about Elan being a chaotic trickster, and in that regards I think the op is most likely looking too much into it.
However there are some things I must question here. Sorry if any of these have been addressed I am too lazy and impatient to read this whole thing.

1.You said that Elan has no conflicts yes? I assume this means inner conflicts?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html Here Elan shows a conflict regarding his brother. Nale just tried to kill him, and Elan seems to realize that he would do so again if he had the chance (since in the next panel he asks Nale to surrender before pulling him up). So Elan is faced with a choice, does he let his enemy fall to his death or does he save his brother's life?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html

This conflict is not as large or hard to resolve for him as the last one, but Elan seems to have thought of this before Julio mentioned it. Thog is loyal to Nale, he will side with Nale. However Thog helped Elan escape and it would not be fair to abandon Thog now. The fact that Thog did not have a weapon helped end this conflict easier, so this may not be the best of examples.

Here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0468.html and here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0482.html Elan shows his concern for Haley. Elan knows he is needed elsewhere and he knows that Haley is allot tougher then him (granted these facts may have needed to be pointed out to him, but he still knew them while the conflict was still going on). Still he knows that Haley is in great danger and wants to do whatever he can to make sure she stays safe. This conflict isn't going to go away until Elan sees Haley again.

2.If I am reading this right you seem to think that Elan has no motives for traveling with the Order. You do not believe he chose to be an adventurer?
Please tell me you do not think the giant to of such poor writing skills that he would create a character that has no motive for risking his life on a daily basis. That would be an insult to the creator of this fine comic. Even the most 1 dimensional characters have some kind of motive. Thog fights out of his love of destruction and loyalty to Nale. Belkar fights out of bloodlust. Elan fights for the thrill of adventure and the love of going to new places and meeting new people. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html "It'll be fun and exciting to travel to the Southern Lands! I've never been there before, I bet they have all sorts of neat stuff to see and cool things to do. It'll be an adventure." If this doesn't say that Elan adventures for adventures sake then I don't know what does.

Anyways, with all that said I do believe Roy to have depth then Elan, though I also believe that Elan has plenty of depth himself.

[Aris Katsaris]

As for the others: For Roy and V, yes. Those traits are the consequences of growing up and taking things seriously. Yes, they've taken them too far, but they take life seriously, and not as a big joke like Elan (see http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html ; Elan upsets -- rightly in my opinion -- V by not taking his vocation seriously, which took V a lot of work to get to. And in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html , Elan doesn't even take his OWN vocation/class seriously).

I don't equate seriousness with maturity. Looking at my own self I consider my most immature moments to have been such as when I was angering at imagined slights -- just like Vaarsuvius, *not* like Elan, was doing.

Elan of course lacks the emotional maturity needed not to get harmed by Vaarsuvius' attack -- but comparing him with Vaarsuvius, again he comes out better, as at least V's attack was a *real* one, not a merely perceived slight.


Blah blah, yep, I'm dealing only in conjecture while you state things like Elan does X wisely - as if that makes it a fact.

Well, we probably need to define the word "wisely", and though I don't have an exact definition of "wisdom", I do consider part of it to be the ability to distinguish the significant from the trivial.

I also consider "ability to find personal happiness", and "trying to behave decently to other people" to be significant, and provided several examples where Elan's been consistently successful in those two (no counterexamples were ever provided by the people I was arguing with).

On the other hand things like "Taking chosen profession seriously", which other people seemed to provide as a criterion for maturity == not particularly significant in my book. Don't see why Elan shouldn't be making fun of his own profession, or why that makes him immature.

[Daimbert]

I don't equate seriousness with maturity. Looking at my own self I consider my most immature moments to have been such as when I was angering at imagined slights -- just like Vaarsuvius, *not* like Elan, was doing.

Elan of course lacks the emotional maturity needed not to get harmed by Vaarsuvius' attack -- but comparing him with Vaarsuvius, again he comes out better, as at least V's attack was a *real* one, not a merely perceived slight.

I DID say that Roy and V take their seriousness too far, thus showing that seriousness and maturity aren't always exactly the same thing. But part of maturing is indeed taking things -- and life -- seriously. Roy and V do that, as I said, to extremes. But as I also said, that's the result OF their maturity.

As for the example of 127/128, we interpret it differently. I take Elan's actions in that strip as being far worse than V's. V, in my opinion, is RIGHT to get upset at Elan's frank and utter mocking of the profession that V has already pointed out -- to Elan, no less -- took him much time, effort and studyto master. Elan thinks that he can be a wizard (and smart and cool and stuff) by simply spouting what even HE should realize are mocking nonsense and expects V -- a serious and arrgant person, we must admit -- to simply accept that with good graces. So, yes, V explodes with anger at the mocking that he perceives Elan as doing (and that I'm not convinced that Elan didn't intend at least some mocking there).

Things change in 128, which is what I think was done really well. V, in talking with Elan, understands that Elan just doesn't even take his OWN vocation seriously. He wasn't disparaging V's because he doesn't think that mocking the oddities of a class is disparaging. Once that's established, Elan also apologizes (at least in part) for mocking something that V takes very seriously. So BOTH are at fault in some way: Elan for not realizing that people make take things seriously that he doesn't, and V for overreacting to Elan's comments.

Again, this fits right into what I said the characters were: Elan simply doesn't take ANYTHING seriously, and doesn't really understand how people who DO take those things seriously can be bothered by that attitude, and V takes things TOO seriously, and can't even say "I'm not going to even bother with this", which Roy tends to do.

Hardly a ringing endorsement of Elan's depth and maturity.


Well, we probably need to define the word "wisely", and though I don't have an exact definition of "wisdom", I do consider part of it to be the ability to distinguish the significant from the trivial.

Well, the basis of one's ideal woman or the career that one carefully considered and spent years learning certainly seem like things that can be significant to some people, and reasonably so. Even in this, trivial versus significant can be subjective. Think of the reaction of people who have a treasured childhood toy ruined, and you can see why that might be the case.


I also consider "ability to find personal happiness", and "trying to behave decently to other people" to be significant, and provided several examples where Elan's been consistently successful in those two (no counterexamples were ever provided by the people I was arguing with).

So would you then call Durkon immature, who places duty above happiness?

In the real world, or even in the OOTS world, sometimes what one has to do is not what necessarily makes one happy. Ability to find personal happiness is nice; ability to be content with the way things are is better, while recognizing how things are.


On the other hand things like "Taking chosen profession seriously", which other people seemed to provide as a criterion for maturity == not particularly significant in my book. Don't see why Elan shouldn't be making fun of his own profession, or why that makes him immature.

Elan doesn't take ANYTHING seriously, or hardly anything. That's the point. He's a bard because he thinks it's fun. He wants to take a wizard because it's easy and he thinks it will make him "smart and cool". He doesn't take it because he thinks he'll be good at it, or because it fits who he is, or because it will help him do good things or be a good adventurer. The most he's ever done is take the "Dashing Swordsman" class because it would help him save Haley.

Look, taking the right things seriously is a key factor in maturity. As I said, Roy and V go overboard; they often take things seriously when they shouldn't. And that's what Elan provides, since he doesn't HAVE that maturity to be jaded and get reality. So he annoys the heck out of them because he doesn't even take the things that SHOULD be taken seriously seriously ... but at times he reminds them that sometimes life just has to be enjoyed.

(As an aside, I've heard people say that that is exactly what their children make them understand, in unvarnished moments [grin]).

I'm not saying that Elan is a BAD character, but that while Roy and V are too serious, he isn't serious enough. And so he becomes one of my least favourite characters, since I tend towards seriousness and so he annoys me like he does V and Roy.

[The Wanderer]

Perhaps the reason this talk is going nowhere is because such significantly different definitions are being used

Wise:


1. having the power of discerning and judging properly as to what is true or right; possessing discernment, judgment, or discretion.
2. characterized by or showing such power; judicious or prudent: a wise decision.
3. possessed of or characterized by scholarly knowledge or learning; learned; erudite: wise in the law.
4. having knowledge or information as to facts, circumstances, etc.: We are wiser for their explanations.
5. Slang. informed; in the know: You're wise, so why not give us the low-down?
6. Archaic. having knowledge of magic or witchcraft.
–verb (used with object)
7. Slang. to make wise or aware: I'll wise you, kid.
—Verb phrase
8. wise up, Slang. to make or become aware of a secret or generally unknown fact, situation, attitude, etc.: They wised him up on how to please the boss. She never wised up to the fact that the joke was on her.
—Idioms
9. be or get wise to, Slang. to be or become cognizant of or no longer deceived by; catch on: to get wise to a fraud.
10. get wise, Slang.
a. to become informed.
b. to be or become presumptuous or impertinent: Don't get wise with me, young man!
11. put or set someone wise, Slang. to inform a person; let a person in on a secret or generally unknown fact: Some of the others put him wise to what was going on.

Wisdom:


1. the quality or state of being wise; knowledge of what is true or right coupled with just judgment as to action; sagacity, discernment, or insight.
2. scholarly knowledge or learning: the wisdom of the schools.
3. wise sayings or teachings; precepts.
4. a wise act or saying.

1. accumulated knowledge or erudition or enlightenment
2. the trait of utilizing knowledge and experience with common sense and insight [ant: folly]
3. ability to apply knowledge or experience or understanding or common sense and insight
4. the quality of being prudent and sensible [ant: unsoundness]
5. an Apocryphal book consisting mainly of a meditation on wisdom; although ascribed to Solomon it was probably written in the first century BC

Nothing in wise or wisdom says that a person has to be kind, happy, etc, although while it's assumed that mostly of the wise are kind to others, (not always a correct assumption), there's an old saying that those who increase their knowledge also increase their sorrow.

And do you really want us posting links to Elan being immature, foolish, or unwise? You would have to read most of the comic over again.

[Daimbert]

And do you really want us posting links to Elan being immature, foolish, or unwise? You would have to read most of the comic over again.

Heck, the bedtime scene alone (before Nale's message that he's kidnapped Julia) is kind of a "Case Closed" moment: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0336.html [grin].

[Elandegenerate]

well, now that i've said what i need to about elan, it think im just gonna wait for the next update so i can go read the comic instead of disecting it

<_<

[horseboy]

Elan's "wisdom" actually comes from his class. He is a bard, he recognizes cliches. Woman coming between two friends? cliche. Buddy feeling worthless, not realizing "the magic" is inside him? cliche. Sexual tension? cliche. Dark and stormy night? Oh a cliche. It's not that he's wise, he's just a high enough level bard that he's heard this story before. Then, in his child like innocence things of what happens next in the story. He's not some great Dr. Phil, he's just a story teller.

[Yoritomo Himeko]

well, now that i've said what i need to about elan, it think im just gonna wait for the next update so i can go read the comic instead of dissecting it.

<_<

But where's the fun in that? :smallbiggrin:

[Charles Phipps]

He's not some great Dr. Phil, he's just a story teller.

Given they're fictional characters in a world that operates by rules based to fulfill story tropes, you've just explained Elan has the highest wisdom score of them all.

Of course, he IS the Patriarch (20th level Cleric) of Banjo.

[Charles Phipps]

Remind you of anyone, Elan lovers? :amused:

Yeah, I think it's important to distinguish between well-realized and deep as versus COMPLEX. Elan is not a figure who suffers from angst and his motives are rather mundane. He's a bit like Roy's Samwise Gamgee in that respect in that he exists to enjoy the simple pleasures of a lady's company along with life itself (though Elan IS a traveler and explorer unlike Sam who is a Gardener)

[VanBuren]

Given they're fictional characters in a world that operates by rules based to fulfill story tropes, you've just explained Elan has the highest wisdom score of them all.

Of course, he IS the Patriarch (20th level Cleric) of Banjo.

Of course, since a lot of things that aren't tropes occur, Elan finds himself more than useless more than half the time.

Fickle wisdom indeed.

[mockingbyrd7]

Exactly! "While Eeyore frets Roy, and Piglet hesitates Haley, and Rabbit calculates Vaarsuvius, and Owl pontificates Vaarsuvius again, Pooh just is Elan."

I have no idea where I'm going with this.

:smallbiggrin:

[Setra]

How to put what I think.. I may mimic some earlier points but...

Elan, is not wise, or intelligent, or deep. He is Elan. This is not bad. Sometimes, it's the innocent people who make you see what is wrong.

For example, let's say you steal a car. Who would make you feel guiltier(Is this a word?), the small child who doesn't understand money problems, or some mature guy who berates you for stealing?

Elan fills a role in the party, even if he is not mature. No, he is not mature. He has moments of maturity, but it is easy to see he is not mature.

First off, instead of trying to leave a bandit camp, he decides to sleep with their leader, only for the reason of he thinks, forsome inane reason, he is supposed to. That is not maturity.

Running around a town during new years is not mature, though it's acceptable during Marti Gras :smalltongue: (Though still illegal).

While someone not too intelligent CAN be mature, and someone who is silly, can be mature, there is no proof Elan is really that mature. Saving your girlfriend is not maturity, that's practically common sense.

You don't need to be mature to love someone, so you can't really use that as proof Elan is mature. Also, saying it again, he doesn't need to be. Elan is Elan, even though shallow that doesn't mean he shouldn't be liked.

On another note, Durkon is probably the only one I consider that mature.

This topic reminds me of something along the lines of "Belkar isn't evil". People like Belkar, but they don't often want to like evil. You like Elan, but don't want to like a "shallow character", so you try to prove in your mind he is.

Somewhere along the line I forgot what I was typing.

[yoshi927]

I've seen some people saying that Elan is wise (has a high Wisdom score). This is proved wrong here;

#80 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html)

:roy: Elan, you need Wisdom to be a cleric. At least a smidgen.

[Blackeyed1981]

He's certainly the most 3D character to me, though I'm suspecting that might be because he's identical to Guybrush Threepwood, who we've gotten to know and love through four computer games already. I always tend to consider them the same person. :smallwink:

[Charles Phipps]

I've seen some people saying that Elan is wise (has a high Wisdom score). This is proved wrong here;

#80 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html)

:roy: Elan, you need Wisdom to be a cleric. At least a smidgen.

Hey, that was calling down a Smite!

He just rolled poorly on it.

:-)

[The UnderKing]

People speak out!!!!! Who is tired of these people argueing the same arguement on several different theards? Speak out now!! You must RISE NOW!!!!! Revolution!!!!!!!!

Anyway I think this is SOOOO annoying. In the end it is one group of people saying "I like Elan! And Roy needs to stay dead!" and another saying "I hate Elan! And I want Roy back!"

Wow. You may give these great long posts that "Once and for all decide this and proves on group wrong." But anybody who reads these and is not on one side should see right through it.

I agree that Elan is not a one-d character. He is way more than a punchline. But he is NOT the most 3-D. You guys either see to way much in Elan or ignore parts of him.

Now my Brothers (and Sisters) rise up and express your discontent with these leaders of their own war!!!!!!!

[Otto-Sieve]

I could not agree with The Underking more. He speaks the truth.

Please stop with the debate!!!!:smallfurious:





Join the Revolution!!! :thog:

[squidthingy]

YES, enough of this arguing, it's starting to llook ike miko dying all over again execpt a little more evenly sided

One group thinks one way, one group thinks another and they argue over who's right, there's no point to this, so instead of going :roy: over :elan: or :elan: over :roy: ,join the revolution and say neither

People are entitled to their opinions and are allowed to voice them but not like this. This thread would have been fine had the first post had been like this \/


*raises hands*

I do.


mabye a 3-4 line paragraph on why, but that's it

arguing in depth to why is just going to get people on the other side to do the same, it won't make them change their opinions, the end result is just going to be more pointless arguing; unless we act to stop it

[TheNifty]

arguing in depth to why is just going to get people on the other side to do the same, it won't make them change their opinions.

We don't do it to get the other side to agree with us, we do it because it's fun to argue. Try it sometime, you might like it. :smallsmile:

[squidthingy]

We don't do it to get the other side to agree with us, we do it because it's fun to argue. Try it sometime, you might like it. :smallsmile:

believe me, I have, I was (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47288)even the only one my side of the arguement, and I learned that it was just pointless arguing, which is alright if it is confined to one thread like the class and level geekery thread, but when it spills over all it does is clog the boards

[The UnderKing]

Yes join the revolution!!!

While I enjoy argueing, probably more than the next guy. But when it gets to the point where you all make the same points over, and over, and over again, on theards with different titles but the same idea its annoying!

Now I was aware that you guys wouldn't be changing the other groups Idea's, I was tired of the same arguement. Not the same type of arguement about the same things, the same arguement of the same type about the same things with the same points.

It would be fine if you brought up a new point, but you don't!

Posts for the People!!!

[yoshi927]

This is just derailing into an argument about the argument. If we could get back to how 3D Elan is or is not, that'd be great. :smallbiggrin: