[3.5] Archery Gish

[lylsyly]

Considering taking a stab at an Archery based gish. How does this build stub sound?

Fighter 1/Battle Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 1/Arcane Archer 2/Abjurant Champion +4/Legacy Champ 7 (advancing Abj. Champ.)

I know I miss out on 9ths but feel that imbue arrows may be worth it. DM will let me build a Legacy Bow as well.

[Buddy76]

Are you taking Legacy Champion for rp reasons and/or for the gp cost reduction on the legacy rituals?

Because you can get least/lesser/greater legacy as bonus feats by completing the weapon's rituals (and you don't need Legacy Champion levels for that). I'm asking because LC gives you 3/4 BAB and 7/10 caster progression, and there are better gish prcs out there. Just by topping off your build with Eldritch Knight 7 (instead of LC 7) you'd be getting +19 BAB and 16/20 caster progression (instead of +17 BAB and 15/20 caster progression). And you could still pay for the rituals and get your cool legacy bow.

Personally, the build I'd go with would be: Battle Sorcerer 7/ Dragon Slayer 1/ Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 3/ Arcane Archer 2/ Abjurant Champion 2/ Sacred Exorcist 4. You'd end up with +17 BAB (same as your original build) and 18/20 caster progression (9 level spells). Plus a legacy bow.

This assumes you are good aligned, but you can replace sacred exorcist with any prc(s) you can find with 3/4 BAB and full caster advancement. If your DM allows (and you have the money) you can pay 3k for an otyugh hole (complete scoundrel, page 151) and get Iron will as a bonus feat, thus entering Arcane Archer three levels earlier and opening up a feat slot.

Also, ask your DM if you can model your legacy bow after Hank's Energy Bow: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a . Even if you don't want all of it's features, at least try to give your bow the ability to fire power shots and adjust to your strengh score.

[A.A.King]

If you take 1 Fighter Level, 2 Arcane Archer Level and Levels 1 and 7 of Legacy Champion you don't just miss out on 9th level spells, you also miss out on 8th level spells (losing 5 spell levels in total).

Seeing as you're taking levels in Arcane Archer, I assume you are an Elf. How married are you to the idea of Sorcerer? Is it there because Battle Sorcerer gives more BAB or because you want spontaneous spells?
Does your group play with fractional BAB?

[Rebel7284]

I feel that Persisted Draconic Polymorph into an Arrow Demon is a staple of any archery gish.

[A_S]

Why are you taking Legacy Champion 7? It doesn't advance class features on that level; you could stick with Legacy Champion 6 and either get an extra feat (with Fighter 2) or 8th level spells (with Sorcerer 5 or a dip that advances casting like Mindbender 1); you'd even still hit 16 BAB with the latter.

[Hellpyre]

Are you taking Legacy Champion for rp reasons and/or for the gp cost reduction on the legacy rituals?



I'm almost sure it's to cheat up the class levels for swift abjuration. Still shouldn't be taking the 7th level, but Legacy Champion is rarely taken except for cheese.

[Eladrinblade]

I'd get 8 levels of swiftblade in there instead of legacy champion and the 2nd level of arcane archer.

[heavyfuel]

Something I build once was along the lines of:
Fighter 1 / Martial Conjurer Wizard 5 / Swiftblade X / Abjurant Champion 5 or
Martial Conjurer Wizard 6 / Swiftblade X / Abjurant Champion 5

Use Alacritous Cogitation to qualify for Swiftblade since you're a Conjurer, and get Abrupt Jaunt.

You're this ranged menace that's near impossible to hit due to high AC (abjurant champion), miss chance to both attacks and spells, high move speed (all 3 from swiftblade), and Abrupt Jaunt (wizard)

[Eldariel]

If you want Charisma-based Archery Gish, I heartily recommend Bardcher instead. Bard 8/Arcane Archer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 4/Abjurant Champion 4. 16 BAB, 9th level spells on level 19, access to Divine Might from Sacred Exorcist for Cha to damage (also if you can wing the Fey-type through Unseelie Fey, Half-Fey or whatever Fey-template, you can get Charm the Arrow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a) for Cha to hit), no lost casting to Arcane Archer and all the good stuff. You can even optimise Inspire Courage a bit to hit +8d6 or something (+2 base, Inspirational Boost, Song of the Heart, Words of Creation, Dragonfire Inspiration) if you want some extra damage, though that's strictly optional. But no, while good, Imbue Arrow is definitely not worth losing 9th level spells for. One kills people. The other remakes the universe as your image. They're not even remotely the same thing. Thus, pick both.

Star Elf conveniently gets +2 Cha too so you can get a boost to your primary casting stat in lieu of all this.

[lylsyly]

@Buddy76

“Are you taking Legacy Champion for rp reasons and/or for the gp cost reduction on the legacy rituals?”

To Advance Abj. Champ. And I have to take the class if I want the Item (DM Rule)

@A.A.King

“If you take 1 Fighter Level, 2 Arcane Archer Level and Levels 1 and 7 of Legacy Champion you don't just miss out on 9th level spells, you also miss out on 8th level spells (losing 5 spell levels in total).”

You are right, I forgot about Leg Champ 7, Doh! But I will be fixing that.

“Is it there because Battle Sorcerer gives more BAB or because you want spontaneous spells?”

Yes to both, and no to Frac BAB.

@A_S

“Why are you taking Legacy Champion 7? It doesn't advance class features on that level; you could stick with Legacy Champion 6 and either get an extra feat (with Fighter 2) or 8th level spells (with Sorcerer 5 or a dip that advances casting like Mindbender 1); you'd even still hit 16 BAB with the latter.”

Because my silly ash forgot about Mindbender. Thanks for reminding me. Danged “sometimers.”

@Eladrinblade

Can’t use Swiftblade because it isn’t in a “book.” Don’t ask.

@Eidariel

Because we already have a bard, but you got Charm the Arrow right (don’t ask why I can use that but not swiftblade). I am building it based on a ½ fey wood elf(we buy off starting at 3 regardless of LA so I pay for at 3 and 6). That’s the whole reason for Archer/Gish, I’ve got flight from level one.

I really appreciate everyone’s responses. I need to spend a couple of weekends skimming books, I am starting to forget things. It’s a pain getting old.

Thanks again everyone.

[Eldariel]

You can do the same with Battle Sorcerer more or less as long as you get Bardic Music from somewhere (shapeshifting, Paladin/Cleric-levels with Initiate of Milil/From Smite to Song [Champions of Valor], etc.). Indeed, Cleric 8 or Paladin 4/Sorcerer 4 would work (though Sorc 4 needs Versatile Spellcaster to enter). Though frankly, two Bards have enough room to be very different (indeed, Gish Bard is far off the beaten path spell- and ability-wise) that I'd go with that anyways; if you want non-casting levels, Sublime Chord is just such a good way to bypass the pesky limits that causes you and taking 8 levels in 3/4 BAB class is the only way to get into Arcane Archer before 10 without losing more casting.

And let me tell you out of experience: all the fun in Arcane Archer is in using Imbue Arrow with the all sorts of high level spells. Disjunction arrows, Antimagic Field arrows, Black Tentacle arrows, Avascular Mass arrows, Maw of Chaos arrows, etc. Wings of Flurry is a brilliant arrow spell too, granted, but it's not outside the realm of possibility to access those as a Sublime Chord as well. Then there's the hilarity that is getting Erupt [Serpent Kingdoms] as an arcane spell; Wyrm Wizard can do it if you use Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell to qualify as being able to cast 10th level spells. Erupt has a long casting time but conveniently Arcane Archer fires a spell in a standard action completely bypassing that.

[lylsyly]

@Eldariel:

I think you have convinced me. Bard 8/Arcane Archer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/and something 3/4 or full bab and Full casting progression for the last three, I won't be back at my full collection of books till monday and for this I can't use Ebberron or FR.

[Eldariel]

@Eldariel:

I think you have convinced me. Bard 8/Arcane Archer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/and something 3/4 or full bab and Full casting progression for the last three, I won't be back at my full collection of books till monday and for this I can't use Ebberron or FR.

I definitely recommend Sacred Exorcist for the last 3-4 slots (I like Abjurant Champ 4/Sacred Exorcist 4 since Abjurant Champ 5 doesn't grant you much of substance while SE 4 self-qualifies you for the class freeing up the required qualification spell from Dismissal to whatever you please). Trivial to enter (doesn't cost feats which you're really short on), 3/4 BAB, full casting, grants Turn Undead which fuels Divine Might which adds Cha to damage (1 round per use) Cha+3 times per day alongside some minor boons (Detect Evil at will, Dispel Evil, Exorcism, skill/CL bonuses vs. a specific type - since you normally don't get any of those abilities, it's a rather convenient versatility buff). And your Cha is fairly high.

[lylsyly]

I definitely recommend Sacred Exorcist for the last 3-4 slots (I like Abjurant Champ 4/Sacred Exorcist 4 since Abjurant Champ 5 doesn't grant you much of substance while SE 4 self-qualifies you for the class freeing up the required qualification spell from Dismissal to whatever you please). Trivial to enter (doesn't cost feats which you're really short on), 3/4 BAB, full casting, grants Turn Undead which fuels Divine Might which adds Cha to damage (1 round per use) Cha+3 times per day alongside some minor boons (Detect Evil at will, Dispel Evil, Exorcism, skill/CL bonuses vs. a specific type - since you normally don't get any of those abilities, it's a rather convenient versatility buff). And your Cha is fairly high.

Sacred Exorcist it is. I really need to stick my nose back in the books again. Thank you.