Optimizing a Blind Warrior

[tedcahill2]

This is piggybacking of my thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?543603-What-would-balance-this-flaw)about balancing blindness. Now I want to flesh out what else I would need.

I want to make a blind swordsman character. I'm thinking sword sage, but don't mind some light dipping (my group does use multiclass penalties and favored classes, so bear that in mind).

Through my other thread I determined that, based on the unseelie fae template, that having blindness with 30ft blindsight is a valid 0 LA trade; so I'm happy with that limitation.

What else would I need to make a blind swordsman a valid character? Feats like blind fight, keen eared scout? I'm not looking for anything to fully replace his sight, he has embraced his blindness fully.

[daremetoidareyo]

This is piggybacking of my thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?543603-What-would-balance-this-flaw)about balancing blindness. Now I want to flesh out what else I would need.

I want to make a blind swordsman character. I'm thinking sword sage, but don't mind some light dipping (my group does use multiclass penalties and favored classes, so bear that in mind).

Through my other thread I determined that, based on the unseelie fae template, that having blindness with 30ft blindsight is a valid 0 LA trade; so I'm happy with that limitation.

What else would I need to make a blind swordsman a valid character? Feats like blind fight, keen eared scout? I'm not looking for anything to fully replace his sight, he has embraced his blindness fully.

tremorsense?

[tedcahill2]

tremorsense?

From where?

[Inevitability]

tremorsense?

Tremorsense is kinda useless when you already have blindsense, though if you absolutely must have it the Scorpion's Sense feat from Sandstorm is probably the way to go.

[Eldariel]

Tremorsense is kinda useless when you already have blindsense, though if you absolutely must have it the Scorpion's Sense feat from Sandstorm is probably the way to go.

Far from useless! It works through basically all kinds of obstacles - if you have e.g. Earth Glide, Burrow or just simply operate in a dungeon settings it's indispensable, for detecting things through walls/doors/etc. One of the very few things in D&D that does that reasonably - if incorporeal things were able to have it (obviously it makes no logical sense) they'd be much more dangerous than they are now. Certainly a worthwhile addition to Blindsense.

[Inevitability]

Far from useless! It works through basically all kinds of obstacles - if you have e.g. Earth Glide, Burrow or just simply operate in a dungeon settings it's indispensable, for detecting things through walls/doors/etc. One of the very few things in D&D that does that reasonably - if incorporeal things were able to have it (obviously it makes no logical sense) they'd be much more dangerous than they are now. Certainly a worthwhile addition to Blindsense.

Fair point, I guess.

Still, I doubt it's worth two feats.

[Nifft]

If you have permanent inherent Blindsight, you don't need to spend more resources on stuff like Blind-Fight. You've got a better option already.

Tremorsense might be useful (depending on the game) but you don't absolutely need it if you've got Blindsight.


This is strictly worse than Unseelie Fey so go for that first, but if you can't get Unseelie Fey, you can still get Blindsense 30 ft. for one feat. First, get Willing Deformity (HoH) from your backstory (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22625099&postcount=4). Then take Deformity: Tongue (also HoH). In addition to that, you may want Blindsight 5' Radius (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#blindsight5FtRadius) (SRD).

You can identify foes within 30 ft. using Blindsense, and then have no miss chance in melee thanks to Blindsight 5' Radius.



So, the Blind part of your build is solid (thanks to Blindsight), now it's time to spend your resources on the other half of your build: Warrior.

What level are you?

[daremetoidareyo]

1 level dip in warlock for unlimited castings of darkness?

[A.A.King]

If you have permanent Blind Sight out to 30 ft than you don't really need anything that works within that same range.

"Blind-Fight" is a feat thatgives you a second attack if you miss because of concealment, but Blind Sight means that people don't get concealment against you, so it's irrelevant.
Similarly, something like the "Hearing the Air" stance only grants you Blind Sense out to 30 feat so it's useless when you already have the Blind-Sight for that same radius.

It is however worth it to get something like Blind Sense for a larger range, just so that you aren't incredibly weak against archers who are 31 feat away from you. If for example you got your hands on the scent ability and took the "Improved Scent" feat from Savage Species you'd be able to detect creatures up to 60 feet away from you (this is weaker than Blindsense because you don't know their location, just how many there are in each direction. It still means you have doubled the range of awareness you have in the world).

Another thing you might consider is going Druid or simply taking the Wild Cohort to get your sense a guide dog. You obviously want to pump your listen skill as well but sometimes it helps you have a loyal pair of eyes who can warn you when you're being approached by an Assassin who cast Silence and is now studying you at a nice 31 feet distance.

[tedcahill2]

If you have permanent inherent Blindsight, you don't need to spend more resources on stuff like Blind-Fight. You've got a better option already.

Tremorsense might be useful (depending on the game) but you don't absolutely need it if you've got Blindsight.


This is strictly worse than Unseelie Fey so go for that first, but if you can't get Unseelie Fey, you can still get Blindsense 30 ft. for one feat. First, get Willing Deformity (HoH) from your backstory (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22625099&postcount=4). Then take Deformity: Tongue (also HoH). In addition to that, you may want Blindsight 5' Radius (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#blindsight5FtRadius) (SRD).

You can identify foes within 30 ft. using Blindsense, and then have no miss chance in melee thanks to Blindsight 5' Radius.



So, the Blind part of your build is solid (thanks to Blindsight), now it's time to spend your resources on the other half of your build: Warrior.

What level are you?
This is all for a hypothetical build, likely starting at low level, somewhere between 1 and 5. But I'd be curious how to build it through 20 levels, or maybe just 10 since my group rarely gets higher than that.

[tedcahill2]

Side question: can someone that's blind deflect an arrow (with the feat)?

[Nifft]

Side question: can someone that's blind deflect an arrow (with the feat)?



You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat. Once per round when you would normally be hit with a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed.
You have Blindsight, and someone attacks you with a bow.

Are you flat-footed or not?

Correct answer: sometimes you are.

[tedcahill2]

You have Blindsight, and someone attacks you with a bow.

Are you flat-footed or not?

Correct answer: sometimes you are.

Well if you have blind sight 5ft, when the arrow gets within 5ft you can "see" it, so you can deflect it. That's my thought.

[Nifft]

Well if you have blind sight 5ft, when the arrow gets within 5ft you can "see" it, so you can deflect it. That's my thought.

Sorry, nope.

Consider: if a Rogue who is successfully hiding shoots an arrow at an orc, is the orc flat-footed? Yes. The arrow isn't invisible, and within 5 ft. the orc has "sight-sight" which allows it to see things.



Now, thinking on your situation, the most important thing is probably the distance of the attacker, right?

So. What kind of attacks DO make you flat-footed?

[tedcahill2]

Sorry, nope.

Consider: if a Rogue who is successfully hiding shoots an arrow at an orc, is the orc flat-footed? Yes. The arrow isn't invisible, and within 5 ft. the orc has "sight-sight" which allows it to see things.



Now, thinking on your situation, the most important thing is probably the distance of the attacker, right?

So. What kind of attacks DO make you flat-footed?

So what would is take to be able to deflect and arrow, but also be blind?

[nolongerchaos]

Something to consider: you can find a way to pick up telepathy, Mindsight is a strong option, particularly since it can't be foiled by the Darkstalker feat.

[Psyren]

Touchsight, easy. The psionic power can get it, or you can splash some levels of Crystal Master if you want it up constantly.

[Demidos]

I've actually played this archetype a couple times now, first with an Unseelie Fey Paladin, and then with a Keen-Eared Scout, so you're on the right track :smallbiggrin:

I'd say you have three main routes to achieving this --

Special Senses -- things like Blindsight, Touchsight, Mindsight, and other similar senses might be similar to what you are interested in, but may or may not break your intent for the blind swordsman trope. One notable item here is the Blindfold of True Darkness, that gives you Blindsight 30 feet at the cost of losing your regular sight (while blindfolded). You could possibly work with your DM to start with the item, as that could lead to some interesting encounters if it is stolen or endangered.
Insane Listen -- things like Keen Eared Scout are great, and can be added to Fell Conspiracy (+2 Listen per ally in the area) and similar feats. Other relevant things could include playing an anthropomorphic bat and taking intuitive attack, which boosts your to-hit and listen, though that's starting to get more into optimization.
Allies -- your allies tell you where stuff is. It may be via an intelligent paladin mount leading you in the right direction, or just allies shouting. This is the least reliable, since it is not very well spelled out in the rules and can easily turn into DM fiat or a point of contention.


I have functioned well with...
1/3 -- A Blind Unseelie Fey Paladin/Witch who used his Drakkensteed mount (via a feat) and Blindsight to get around. He ended up drowning in the middle of the ocean, but is to date still my favorite character.

2/3 -- A Blind little girl who blinded herself after seeing horrible things. The DM and I worked together to make a custom flaw, which made her blind, but gave her full ranks in listen, skill focus (listen), and keen-eared scout in return.


Of the two, I found the Paladin to be more fun, as he truly did feel helpless if people were standing outside his 30 foot range of sight, while the little girl could hear well enough and the aiming rules for spells that we worked out ended up being vague enough that her blindness didn't really feel as relevant. That being said, using a stricter reading for her ability to target spells or going into melee might have functioned better.