Can Xykon Make Redcloak Love Him?

[Vinyadan]

You know, from a 3.5 mechanics point of view. Xykon as a character probably doesn't want anyone's love. He seems to prefer having people hate and fear him. I can see him being evil enough to actually be happy at the thought of controlling someone who hates him, because it's a way to make his subject suffer even more. I mean, willing servants are happier than slaves: why should Xykon make them this favour?

And yet I wonder, could Xykon theoretically make Redcloak love him? Be it a charisma thing (which is probably sky-high, and enhanced), or a spell? Counting SoD events too.

Love both as "love love" and "enjoy". But "love love" is the more interesting option, mostly because it's extreme.

BTW, this isn't meant to be fanfiction. It's a question about 3.5 mechanics.

[Deeds]

Can an epic level sorcerer use charisma or spells to make an underling love them?

Yes.

EDIT: Enter the 9th level spell, Mindrape: https://dndtools.net/spells/book-of-vile-darkness--37/mindrape--165/

[Fyraltari]

Can an epic level sorcerer use charisma or spells to make an underling love them?

Yes.

EDIT: Enter the 9th level spell, Mindrape: https://dndtools.net/spells/book-of-vile-darkness--37/mindrape--165/

Reminds me of what C'baoth did to that Imperial general in the Thrawn Trilogy...

[Darth Paul]

The question isn't, "Can you make someone love you?" but, "Can it last?"

Kind of like real life, really...

[PopeLinus1]

[QUOTE=Deeds;22625524]Can an epic level sorcerer use charisma or spells to make an underling love them?

Yes.

EDIT: Enter the 9th level spell, Mindrape:

Well... what if the Crimson Mantle has an ability that makes Redcloak immune to mind control or other effects that would deviate attention from “the plan”

[Gift Jeraff]

He already has.

[Keltest]

He already has.

In fairness, "Redcloak decides to put The Plan on the backburner because it isn't working and he has no real way to make progress at it" is an entirely different scenario from "Redcloak is forcibly compelled to abandon The Plan via magic" and would require different magical effects to counteract.

[martianmister]

He already has.

Xykon: "Hey Redcloak...we really had a shot at the prize there for a minute, didn't we?"
Redcloak: "Yeah. Yeah, we did."

Truly the most touching scene in this comic.

[wumpus]

In fairness, "Redcloak decides to put The Plan on the backburner because it isn't working and he has no real way to make progress at it" is an entirely different scenario from "Redcloak is forcibly compelled to abandon The Plan via magic" and would require different magical effects to counteract.

I could see an event similar to Miko's fall with the Dark One claiming Redcloak's soul if he ever simply gave up the plan (even if only thanks to a blown save/compulsive magic).

There is the additional difficulty of using mindrape in a fictional narrative. Something is just wrong by one character deciding to replace another character's characterization at whim, not just the evil in the character, but the "cheating" by the author. I'd expect the Giant to lump such spells with True Resurrection as narrative-damaging spells.

[137beth]

Can an epic level sorcerer use charisma or spells to make an underling love them?

Yes.

EDIT: Enter the 9th level spell, Mindrape: https://dndtools.net/spells/book-of-vile-darkness--37/mindrape--165/

There's also another 9th level spell called "Programmed Amnesia," which is almost identical to Mindrape but doesn't have the [Evil] descriptor. Consistency isn't really a strong point of the Alignment system:smallwink:

[dps]

Xykon would never do something like that. He isn't one of those disgusting biophiliacs.

[goodpeople25]

There's also another 9th level spell called "Programmed Amnesia," which is almost identical to Mindrape but doesn't have the [Evil] descriptor. Consistency isn't really a strong point of the Alignment system:smallwink:
Well clearly that spell is not evil, it's got a ten minute casting time meaning you pretty much either use it on a wlling subject (which I think mindrape could do too?) for whatever reason or on someone you've already managed to restrain (so plenty of time to let your victims stew in the knowledge or suspicion of what your doing to them, definitely a big plus to being non evil) or unconscious. (Yup I see no issues here either...) The mere possibility of being used in immediate self defence is clearly what makes mindrape evil. :smallwink:

I mean flavour and balance considerations exist, but the differences between those two spells still always stuck with me.

[Vinyadan]

The image of Xykon creeping in and looming ten minutes over the sleeping Redcloak in his bedroom to change his memories is pretty creepy...

[MReav]

Well... what if the Crimson Mantle has an ability that makes Redcloak immune to mind control or other effects that would deviate attention from “the plan”

Can Redcloak even stop Xykon from taking the Crimson Mantle from him by force? If no, then Xykon beats the stuffing out of him, takes the cloak, then starts the various forms of magical reprogramming.

[TheNecrocomicon]

The question isn't, "Can you make someone love you?" but, "Can it last?"

Kind of like real life, really...

That's the question of the day,
Who knows how to make love stay?

[RatElemental]

The answer to any question that starts with "Can [an epic level spellcaster]..." is yes.

Given enough time, money, experience, and or minions to help them with a ritual, an epic level spellcaster can research a spell that does anything from create a living lightning bolt spell (as in the spell is alive, not the lightning) (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Living_Lightning), annihilate someone's soul (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Power_Word_Annihilate_(3.5e_Epic_Spell)), steal themselves from the future (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Time_Duplicate), send someone into orbit (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Nailed_to_the_Sky), destroy the ear drums of everything in existence all at once (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21720205&postcount=29), kill an entire family (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html), and pretty much anything else you care to imagine. By the time you've hit epic levels balance has long since left the building and there are literally open ended rules that let an epic level caster make any spell they want to, given DM approval for the ad hoc spellcraft DC modifiers for nonstandard effects.

I should also point out, half of the spells I linked are SRD spells the designers created as examples of the epic spellcrafting rules being used correctly.

ETA: Sure hope Jormungand doesn't mind me linking that...

[Chronos]

Xykon might be able to take the Crimson Mantle by force, but if he does so, then what he does to Redcloak afterwards is irrelevant, because Redcloak is only important by virtue of being the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle. And with it, well, my guess is that one effect of the Mantle is that it causes its wearer to automatically succeed on all saving throws. In any event, it has certainly already protected Redcloak from at least one epic spell effect.

Even without whatever the Mantle does, any spell (except possibly an overpowered custom epic spell) which would do this would offer a Will save, and Redcloak is high level in a class that offers good Will progression and has a high Wisdom. It'd be nontrivial for even an epic caster like Xykon to get past that.

[Keltest]

Xykon might be able to take the Crimson Mantle by force, but if he does so, then what he does to Redcloak afterwards is irrelevant, because Redcloak is only important by virtue of being the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle. And with it, well, my guess is that one effect of the Mantle is that it causes its wearer to automatically succeed on all saving throws. In any event, it has certainly already protected Redcloak from at least one epic spell effect.
Wait, it has? When was this?

[hroþila]

Wait, it has? When was this?
Lirian's virus spell.

[Vinyadan]

The virus though might have been a special case, like immunity to magical fear - you aren't immune to all debuffs, just fear effects.

I would be surprised if the mantle didn't kill unauthorized people who use it. Like those who don't worship the Dark One, or non-goblinoids.

[Keltest]

My personal theory is that the Mantle is an intelligent artifact that subverts the will of whoever wears it so that they want to further the Plan in some way, whether by causing it directly as with Redcloak or by manipulating them into passing it to a more worthy bearer.

[Chronos]

That sort of thing is pretty typical for artifacts in general (though of course, each artifact has a different Plan).

[Psyren]

They are both NPCs (as Redcloak himself states in the foreword of one of the books) so by RAW, Diplomacy will work. And since epic is a thing here, Epic Diplomacy will work. Bam, fanatic Redcloak.

Of course, the Crimson Mantle itself might block stuff like that.

[Chronos]

While Xykon does have a monstrously-high Charisma, he probably doesn't have any ranks in Diplomacy (it's not on the sorcerer class list, and they have few enough points to begin with). And while there are spells which increase Diplomacy checks, a sorcerer with limited spells known probably doesn't have any of them. So Xykon probably only has about a +14 total on his check, enough to take Redcloak from his initial Indifferent to Friendly or maybe Helpful, but nowhere near Fanatic.

[Emanick]

My personal theory is that the Mantle is an intelligent artifact that subverts the will of whoever wears it so that they want to further the Plan in some way, whether by causing it directly as with Redcloak or by manipulating them into passing it to a more worthy bearer.

While this is plausible on the evidence alone, from a metatextual perspective I doubt Rich would allow Redcloak the ‘out’ of having had his agency diluted by a mind-manipulating artifact. He has to own his decisions 100%, or his character arc will be undermined.

[wumpus]

While this is plausible on the evidence alone, from a metatextual perspective I doubt Rich would allow Redcloak the ‘out’ of having had his agency diluted by a mind-manipulating artifact. He has to own his decisions 100%, or his character arc will be undermined.

I think the whole "new spirit created to posses the vampire's body" rule is pretty telling. Ordinarily vampirism includes a sudden alignment change on a character [PC or NPC], but in the stickverse that never happens. The new alignment is provided by a newly created spirit rather than grossly manipulate the old character. I'd expect that similar magic not be available (or at least not work on named characters).

[Vinyadan]

I think the whole "new spirit created to posses the vampire's body" rule is pretty telling. Ordinarily vampirism includes a sudden alignment change on a character [PC or NPC], but in the stickverse that never happens. The new alignment is provided by a newly created spirit rather than grossly manipulate the old character. I'd expect that similar magic not be available (or at least not work on named characters).

You know, I had not thought about the fact that in every vampire dwarf we see there is an immortal soul trapped in the private universe of an evil spirit. And what a blasted f***er Malak was for knowingly imprisoning souls for making children for himself, not to say anything about his tragedy-befallen friend Durkon.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You know, I had not thought about the fact that in every vampire dwarf we see there is an immortal soul trapped in the private universe of an evil spirit. And what a blasted f***er Malak was for knowingly imprisoning souls for making children for himself, not to say anything about his tragedy-befallen friend Durkon.

Yes, the self-delusion was strong with Malack. I do honestly believe he did not realise, after centuries of existence, that he was a separate entity from the shaman soul he still had trapped within him. And therefore, that any and all children he created came at the cost of imprisonment. Mind you, I don't think he would've much cared if he had been aware of it, but the fact the thought he was going to get Durkon back post-vampirism is the tell of his delusion. He had no reason to lie about it, and he still did, indicating he was lying to himself.

Grey Wolf

[Chronos]

Did he think that he'd get Durkon as a child, or did he think that he'd get someone who was a lot like Durkon in some ways?

[Fyraltari]

Did he think that he'd get Durkon as a child, or did he think that he'd get someone who was a lot like Durkon in some ways?

A mix of both I think, he says "the Durkon that was" but the Vampire calls himself Durkon thundershield but still differentiatesbetween himself and "[his] dwarf" when relevant. Considering the original soul has no agnency and the vampire spirit probably has no existence before the vampirisation I guess that once the memory absorption is complete the difference ismostly academic anyways. Furthermore, if my theory that the normal three days before rising as an undead are normally spent absorbing pretty much all the memory of the host, thenin Malack's case there "never" was a difference.

[Keltest]

I think its also worth considering the lifespan differences between dwarves and lizardfolk. Durkon has almost certainly lived longer than Pre-Malack did, and he's barely a young adult.