The Half-Troll (Concept)

[Lrbearclaw]

So, because I have a Half-Troll Paladin (long story, but love the character), I had wanted to play him in 5e. However, no such race/template exists that is not stupidly broken one way or the other. So, I came up with a very basic idea and wanted opinions on the Half-Troll Template, now over the course of the thread it has been retooled into its own race. I just have to write up the flavor text to delve into them as a people.


Half-Troll

Ability Score Increase. Your Strength score increases by 1, and your Constitution score increases by 2.

Darkvision. Thanks to your troll blood, you have superior vision in dark and dim conditions. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if you were in bright light. You can't discern color in darkness, only shades of gray.

Size. Half-Trolls are bulkier and larger than humans, easily hitting 6 to 7 feet tall. Your size is Medium.

Menacing. You gain proficiency in Intimidation

Keen Smell. You gain proficiency in Wisdom (Perception).

Regeneration. Because of your troll blood, whenever you spend Hit Dice at the end of a short rest, you can restore double what you rolled before adding your Constitution modifier. Can regrow a lost limb during a long rest.

Languages. You can speak, read, and write in Common and Giant. Giant is written in the Dwarven script.


============
Original (for conversation):
Half-Troll Template

Senses: Darkvision 60'

Languages: The half-troll speaks Giant in addition to any other languages known.

Keen Smell: The half-troll has advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on smell.

Regeneration: The half-troll regains 10 hit points at the start of its turn. If the half-troll takes acid or fire damage, this trait doesn't function at the start of the half-troll's turn.


Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: (Can be used as a Bonus Action.)
1d4 piercing damage

Template 2.0:
Half-Troll Template

Subtype: Giant

Senses: Darkvision 60'

Vulnerability: Fire and Acid

Languages: The half-troll speaks Giant in addition to any other languages known.

Keen Smell: The half-troll has advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on smell.

Regeneration: At the start of your turn, you regain a number of hit points equal to your Constitution modifier (minimum 1). If you take acid or fire damage or are unconscious, your regeneration won't function on the start of your next turn.

Everything started by being pulled off the Troll in the MM because honestly, after 2nd MAYBE 3rd level, the regeneration will be a joke. Either by damage taken, or the fact you will run into more spellcasters. (Not to mention you will either neuter it or make it broken as hell.)

Personally, I feel this is fair because it gives a flavor of the Troll but.. less. The part I foresee people having issue with is the regen, but again, it is neutralized by acid/fire for that round. Bite was scaled as if based on a Medium creature, but I am totally fine dropping it. *shrugs*

[Mith]

So, because I have a Half-Troll Paladin (long story, but love the character), I had wanted to play him in 5e. However, no such race/template exists that is not stupidly broken one way or the other. So, I came up with a very basic idea and wanted opinions on the Half-Troll Template.



Everything is pulled off the Troll in the MM because honestly, after 2nd MAYBE 3rd level, the regeneration will be a joke. Either by damage taken, or the fact you will run into more spellcasters. (Not to mention you will either neuter it or make it broken as hell.)

Personally, I feel this is fair because it gives a flavor of the Troll but.. less. The part I foresee people having issue with is the regen, but again, it is neutralized by acid/fire for that round. Bite was scaled as if based on a Medium creature, but I am totally fine dropping it. *shrugs*

Bite I would do 1d4 + STR or Dex.(choose for the template as a shole, not a player choice.

As for regen, maybe do regen 5+CON (minimum 5) per round as it is a huge boon at low levels, but gives character investment a reward up to 10 HP/round which can be useful as you noted.

To me the usefulness of the template is that it has a fun interaction with death saving throws, as you auto stabilize unless you take acid or fire damage.

[Lrbearclaw]

First, thanks for the input! I figured the Bite d4+STR went without saying since it was a melee attack (and not Finesse). Which was why I left it out.

Secondly, I thought about the Regen being 5HP or 5+CONm for the same reason.

The death throws would be the only real problem (true with Trolls if the DM does Monster saves, which I have encountered as a player) but again only REALLY at low level. Later on running out of HP is less likely than Death Magic. But, the weakness to fire/acid is a balance I think.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Any amount of always-on regen obviates most dangers of being KO'd and a key element of the game's resource management. The fact that it's regen 10 means it's actually relevant combat healing for quite a while, especially on a more defensive character. You're somehow trying to sell this ability as not that big of a deal by level 4, when a 16 CON paladin is going to have a total of 40 HP.

And what is the drawback of taking such a template?

[zylodrizzt]

Encounter designs are based off of resource management. Many characters are keyed of long or short rests. Regaining hp is based off of both. Bouncing back up after every round just seems silly. I'd suggest maybe temp hp every round not reduced by acid or fire (unless you really wanna) or maybe an activated ability that recovers hp possibly triggered by being brought to 0 hp. Maybe it uses the hd like for a short rest. Maybe when they expend hd to heal its maxed and doubled. In this way your paladin in this case must still expend resources just not nearly as much to heal rather then negating the need entirely. Not even the champion let's the fighter heal 100%

Some ideas.
Like the mystic every round you gain con mod temp hp.
Or
Whenever you expend hd during a short rest you maximize and double the roll (other variants exist im sure)
Or
Once per short rest you gain regen equal to com mod for 1 min negated by fire and acid. This is a bonus action.
Or
When reduced to 0 hp you gain regen 10 for a min negated by fire and acid
Or
As a reaction to being hit you can expend a hd to reduce the damage by that amount. You cannot reduce fire or acid damage in this way.

Insure there are a ton of ways to do it but you are not a full troll and therfore should not have a full trolls power either.

[Lrbearclaw]

Any amount of always-on regen obviates most dangers of being KO'd and a key element of the game's resource management. The fact that it's regen 10 means it's actually relevant combat healing for quite a while, especially on a more defensive character. You're somehow trying to sell this ability as not that big of a deal by level 4, when a 16 CON paladin is going to have a total of 40 HP.

And what is the drawback of taking such a template?
That's kind of what I was asking about.

I was leaning on a Vulnerability to Fire/Acid making them deal double damage. Also gain the Giant subtype.

Though, I had a flash of insight, made the regen only work if the Half-Troll is conscious. Sleeping/KOed means, no regen. Seems fair to me because then it isn't auto-win vs Death Saves.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Back in 3e, troll-like templates and features were balanced by the fact that out of combat healing was less of a central game mechanic (wands of lesser vigor, healing belts, etc), and the better features had massive Level Adjustment penalties (Half Troll was +4 LA IIRC). In the case of 5e, a creature with the template basically has to be just as effective as a creature without the template due to the drawbacks. To that end I'd make the template more like the Troll Blooded feat in 3e. You get regen 1, occurring at the end of the troll's turn, and you get the vulnerability to acid and fire. Without any other features that's still probably too good due to how important attrition is in this edition, but it is in keeping with the troll theme.

Edit: It should also have advantage on charisma checks to cause arguments.

[Greywander]

How about a compromise between temp HP and real HP using the Champion's regen as a base?

Regeneration. At the start of each of your turns, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier (minimum 1). If you have no more than half your hit points left and are not at 0 hit points, then you also regain a number of hit points equal to your Constitution modifier (minimum 1). If you take acid or fire damage, your regeneration won't function on the start of your next turn.

Functionally, this is the same as getting 10 extra HP per round (at 20 CON), but with enough restrictions that it doesn't become game breaking. Of course, the only way to see how this balances will be to playtest it. You might find that regeneration isn't that overpowered after all, or is even more overpowered than you thought.

Also, is there a reason you're doing it as a template rather than a race? We already have plenty of half- races, what's one more?

EDIT: Also, if you're into homebrewing races, I suggest checking out https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ViqLSEN67mmd2Lo_OJ-H5YX0fccsfI97kFaqx7V1Dmw/edit
When I'm homebrewing, I often want to add an ability that isn't in the guide, so I just do my best to guess. I'd probably rate regeneration as 2 points -ish.

[Requilac]

This really should not be a template (which does not even exist in 5e for PCs), it should probably be a race. If half-orcs and half-elves are a race than half trolls should be a race too. Regeneration is incredibly overpowered in its current form too. The champion fighter gains a similar feature at level 18, but it only works if they are below half health. A racial feature should not be an improved version of a level 18 class feature. And keep in mind that this regeneration will work outside of combat, so a half-troll could go into battle with full health if given a minute or so to rest in between.

And I disagree that having fire or acid stop it is a good solution, because that way one of two things would happen. Either (a) the enemies always use acid and fire to counter it and then you have an extremely weak character or (b) enemies never use acid or fire and the feature is immensely overpowered. That is not a good fix for the massive amount of HP a half-troll is recovering every round.

I think that the only way you could really fix this is if you made the amount of HP regained really low, Like half proficiency bonus or something. That would make it much more manageable. Inside of combat it would do very little, by you would also be able to start every fight at full health so it is certainly not week.

[Lrbearclaw]

Actually, Templates are part of 5e. In the Monster Manual (page 180) you have the Half-Dragon Template.

As a Half-Dragon you gain:
- Blindsight 10' radius
- Darkvision 60'
- Resistance to element (based on color)
- Draconic added to Languages spoken/known
- Breath attack (based on size)


So, using that as a base, I gave the Half-Troll:
- Darkvision 60'
- Keen Scent
- Vulnerability to Fire/Acid
- Giant added to Languages spoken/known
- (Weakened) Regeneration


You can use the Half-Dragon as a Monster template OR a PC template. This doesn't make the Dragonborn redundant, but gives your world flavor. To make a Half-Troll race, you would risk making it broken easily because the regeneration is a Troll staple and you do not hamstring the Half-Orc for being able to still fight when it is at 0 HP (which is what people are most afraid of with the idea of Regenerate). Never mind that from a role-play stance, a HT would be viewed as more monster than man. No one would trust them, they would be viewed as an abomination. Add in they wouldn't be overly common, certainly not common enough to warrant being a race proper. This wasn't something I just threw together, I was looking at the given Template and sought out info for making a balanced 5e Template.

Now, I did tweak it a bit more because I can agree with either making the regen CON mod or a base 5 (since CON caps at 20/+5 anyway).(Gotta say, I kinda like Greywanderer's idea.) I also dropped the Bite because the character in question would NEVER do it as it is without honor and also seemed a bit too much.

[JNAProductions]

Yeah, the issue is not IN-COMBAT regen. That's a small amount-not NOTHING, but nothing too major.

The issue is going into every fight at full HP given pretty much ANY downtime.

In addition, the Half-Dragon is NOT meant as a player template. That's not a good example.

[Requilac]

The half dragon template was not meant for PCs at all, it was meant to be applied to monsters specifically. Players do not have “templates” on 5e, only monsters do. There is no precedent for PC templates in the game, and there is not even a way to get one. I suppose it could be a feat, that would be the closest thing to what you are suggestions. Dracolich is also a template too, so following your logic a PC could become an undead dragon too.

I would highly recommend making it a race or possibly a feat even, there is no way for PCs to gain these “templates” in 5e even. You need to make it fit something else or create your own template system, because I know for a solid fact that PC’s cannot gain monster templates.

[Lrbearclaw]

As recommended, I reworked it into a race (using Half-Orcs as a base). I made Regeneration into a boost to the short rest's (optional) heal to simplify it and remove the risk of being broken/breaking Death Saves. All in all, I think this is more in line with the spirit of Half-breeds and appreciate the advice.

Whatcha think? (Be gentle, this is my first Homebrew race....)

[Greywander]

Half-Troll

[3] Ability Score Increase. Your Strength score increases by 1, and your Constitution score increases by 2.

[0.5] Darkvision. Thanks to your troll blood, you have superior vision in dark and dim conditions. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if you were in bright light. You can't discern color in darkness, only shades of gray.

Size. Half-Trolls are bulkier and larger than humans, easily hitting 6 to 7 feet tall. Your size is Medium.

[0.5] Menacing. You gain proficiency in the Intimidation

[0.5?] Keen Smell. The half-troll has advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on smell.

[1?] Regeneration. Because of your troll blood, whenever you spend Hit Dice at the end of a short rest, you can restore double what you rolled before adding your Constitution modifier.

Languages. You can speak, read, and write in Common and Giant. Giant is written in the Dwarven script.

Total Score: 5.5?, Average

(Again, I'm using this guide to grade your race: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ViqLSEN67mmd2Lo_OJ-H5YX0fccsfI97kFaqx7V1Dmw/edit)

Not bad, I usually tend to overshoot (6.5 or 7). For reference, mountain dwarves have a score of 8 and dragonborn have a score of 4.5, so it swings pretty wildly. I had to guess on keen smell and regeneration for the score. Also, I'm assuming a speed of 30 feet, since size is medium. If you want in-combat regeneration, how about something like this?

Regeneration. As a bonus action, you may spend one of your hit dice to regain hit points. Roll the die and add your Constitution modifier to determine how many hit points you regain. If you enter combat and don't have any hit dice remaining, you immediately regain one. Also, you may regain one hit die at the end of each short rest.

This way, regeneration is limited by hit dice. Restoring hit dice on short rests helps keep short rests appealing (since you can spend hit dice without a short rest) without being too over the top. Not sure how this would work in actual play, though. If you've got someone to play with, you should test it out.

[JellyPooga]

I can't help but think that refluffing a Goliath achieves largely the same end. Strong, tough, tall, heals more...even speaks Giant. *shrug* Then again, I prefer refluffing to homebrewing.

[Droodicus]

What about using damage reduction to simulate regeneration.
troll blood
Reduce damage, other than fire or acid, by your con modifier.

To make it weaker fire or acid could turn it off until the start of your next turn instead.

[Ivor_The_Mad]

Why go with a half troll when you can use a full one. I would much prefer the whole thing to just half.

[the_brazenburn]

Why go with a half troll when you can use a full one. I would much prefer the whole thing to just half.

Now everybody is picturing a troll's upper body and arms running around like a maniac. Thanks, Ivor.

[Willie the Duck]

I can't help but think that refluffing a Goliath achieves largely the same end. Strong, tough, tall, heals more...even speaks Giant. *shrug* Then again, I prefer refluffing to homebrewing.

As a general rule, I agree. The entire concept of regeneration seems to be an odd little mechanism to create an extremely resilient monster (despite there already being a mechanism for that--hit points) that seems to have taken on a life of its' own. Regeneration should not be an end in and of itself--it is simply there to represent resilience. Both the Goliath and the half-orc are great examples of well balanced PC races with abilities which capture the same goal.

Other ways to do it would include things that have been mentioned such as healing (but only if below 1/2 hp), or a half-orc-like rest-recharge death avoidance, or a hill-dwarf-like hp boost.

[Lrbearclaw]

Total Score: 5.5?, Average

(Again, I'm using this guide to grade your race: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ViqLSEN67mmd2Lo_OJ-H5YX0fccsfI97kFaqx7V1Dmw/edit)

Not bad, I usually tend to overshoot (6.5 or 7). For reference, mountain dwarves have a score of 8 and dragonborn have a score of 4.5, so it swings pretty wildly. I had to guess on keen smell and regeneration for the score. Also, I'm assuming a speed of 30 feet, since size is medium. If you want in-combat regeneration, how about something like this?

Regeneration. As a bonus action, you may spend one of your hit dice to regain hit points. Roll the die and add your Constitution modifier to determine how many hit points you regain. If you enter combat and don't have any hit dice remaining, you immediately regain one. Also, you may regain one hit die at the end of each short rest.

This way, regeneration is limited by hit dice. Restoring hit dice on short rests helps keep short rests appealing (since you can spend hit dice without a short rest) without being too over the top. Not sure how this would work in actual play, though. If you've got someone to play with, you should test it out.
I considered making the Regen like that rather than just boosting post-SR hit dice, but the thought I keep coming back to is "You don't just will yourself to heal, your body does it on its own."

I figured I could have easily added more to the race to give more WOW! but, honestly, I know most people would see "Troll" and "Regeneration" and freak the hell out. So I figured low-bar it and see how it goes. If the general consensus was "This is awesome, just seems a little weak", then I can see re-adding the Bite or something.



Why go with a half troll when you can use a full one. I would much prefer the whole thing to just half.
Would have had 5e given rules for a monster PC. Haven't found any, so.... (Never mind that regen as it is in the MM for trolls clearly concerns people.)


I can't help but think that refluffing a Goliath achieves largely the same end. Strong, tough, tall, heals more...even speaks Giant. *shrug* Then again, I prefer refluffing to homebrewing.
I already have a Goliath. (He is a fun character.) Actually I compared notes between the Half-Orc and Goliath for an idea of a monstrous race and a large one. However, this character is neither. Never mind that Goliaths don't heal, they reduce damage taken (by effectively sidestepping or turning away from the hit at the last instant). The troll-blood is a large aspect of the character. Trolls are always evil, they slaughter and destroy and eat everything. They tend to be hunted on sight or outright avoided.

So, what happens if a trollkin is raised outside of it? What happens if it is raised to know good versus evil? What if it takes an Oath of Devotion?

[GlenSmash!]

I can't help but think that refluffing a Goliath achieves largely the same end. Strong, tough, tall, heals more...even speaks Giant. *shrug* Then again, I prefer refluffing to homebrewing.

I'm more a fan of refluffing vs homebrew too, but I'd think in this case I'd use the Bugbear.

[Lrbearclaw]

I'm more a fan of refluffing vs homebrew too, but I'd think in this case I'd use the Bugbear.
Goliath is a race, Bugbear is a monster. Which reopens the reason it was shifted from a Template to a race. If I was going to refluff a monster into a PC race, why wouldn't I just use a full Troll?

[Caelic]

Goliath is a race, Bugbear is a monster. Which reopens the reason it was shifted from a Template to a race. If I was going to refluff a monster into a PC race, why wouldn't I just use a full Troll?

I would think the answer would be obvious: PC races are supposed to have rough parity with one another. A full troll would be so monstrously (pun intended) powerful compared to other PC races that it would dominate the game.

[Khrysaes]

This is the dwarven fortitude feat from Xanathar's. It could very easily simulate your Regeneration. Optionally, make it so they gain a max roll when healed, as like the warlock invocation in Xanathar's.

Dwarf
+1 con
Whenever you take the Dodge action in combat, you
can spend one Hit Die to heal yourself. Roll the die,
add your Constitution modifier, and regain a number
of hit points equal to the total (minimum of 1).

Warlock Invocation shortened.
treat any dice rolled to determine
the hit points you regain as having rolled their maximum
value for you.

Alchemest feat UA:
Over the course of any short rest, you can temporarily improve the potency of one potion of healing of any rarity. To use this benefit, you must have alchemist’s supplies with you, and the potion must be within reach. If the potion is drunk no more than 1 hour after the short rest ends, the creature drinking the potion can forgo the potion’s die roll and regains the maximum number of hit points that the potion can restore.

I would also make Keen smell grant proficiency in Perception.

Also check out the Trollkin from this Iron Kingdoms 5e conversion: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7VB7K-VkP2dYXk4MlY2VUVhUDQ (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7VB7K-VkP2dYXk4MlY2VUVhUDQ)

[Requilac]

Goliath is a race, Bugbear is a monster. Which reopens the reason it was shifted from a Template to a race. If I was going to refluff a monster into a PC race, why wouldn't I just use a full Troll?

There is actually a bugbear PC race in volo’s guide to monsters (VGtM). But they do not have a regeneration/resiliency feature either, so it would be a bad choice to model a half-troll off of. The VGtM actually has an entire section on monstrous races; they have the bugbear, goblin, hobgoblin, kobold, full blooded orc, and yuan-ti pureblood. None of them are even remotely troll like stats wise though so I would not use any of the races presented there as a model.

[Lrbearclaw]

Also check out the Trollkin from this Iron Kingdoms 5e conversion: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7VB7K-VkP2dYXk4MlY2VUVhUDQ (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7VB7K-VkP2dYXk4MlY2VUVhUDQ)
Hmmm had I know about this I wouldn't have even bothered with this entire thread. :smallconfused:Oh well! A lot of good advice on the whole. Thanks!