Pathfinder Bloodrager multiclass question.

[Tjlee003]

I am going to be in a pathfinder campaign that the GM is planning on going to level 30 starting from 3. I am having issues with multiclassing. I want to start with an ifrit Bloodrager (Aberrant\Abyssl) Spelleater. I was thinking of taking sorcerer to get more spell slots early and access to more spells. Nothing is set in stone and it definitely feels like it could be better. Help before I go insane digging through these books.

[Geddy2112]

I am assuming you are needing to multiclass because you will cap out a single class by 20.

Most bloodragers do well with armor and more beatstick, less spells. I would probably not go sorcerer. You also have the option of prestige classing, which would net you 5-10 levels depending on the prestige class.

I would suggest paladin on top of bloodrager-the stacking charisma based boons and being a heavy armored melee class makes for very good synergy.

[ATHATH]

What do you want your character to do?

What does the rest of the party look like?

How new is your GM?

[grarrrg]

Since you're going to level 30:
I'm assuming classes 'stop' at level 20?

How is spellcasting being treated?
Is the only benefit past 21 (PrC's) an increase in Caster level? Are spell slot/known tables being extended?


I want to start with an ifrit Bloodrager (Aberrant\Abyssl) Spelleater.

Are you using Crossblooded for both? Or on the fence which Bloodline to take?
If Crossblooded, be VERY wary of your Will Save. Bloodragers have poor Will Saves, Ifrit take a penalty to WIS, and Crossblooded drops you another -2 Will Save and drops your Bloodrage boost by -2 as well.
So when picking a Multiclass, keep an eye out for Good Will save, and other possible bonuses.

Also note that Enlarge Person doesn't work on you normally (bonus spell from Aberrant). Abyssal 4th level Bloodrage power DOES Enlarge you normally (and there is an alternate Race option for Ifrit to count as Humanoid/Human as well).



Mad Magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/mad-magic-combat/) is nigh mandatory if you multiclass into a caster.

If going Sorcerer, you will need to pick the same bloodline (but not necessarily the Crossblooded archetype), and niether Aberrant or Abyssal are all that great (not bad, just not great).

Would suggest PrC Dragon Disciple, but then your bloodline would have to be (part) Draconic. Which bring up an interesting question if you did go Bloodrager+Sorc+Dragon Disciple. It -can- stack for either class's bloodline, but would your DM allow it to stack for -both-?

[Kurald Galain]

Have you considered the Magus? It's essentially a bloodrager with more spells. Plus you get to take the bloodlines anyway, there's an archetype for that.

Magus guide. (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423754-Myrrh-Frankincense-and-Steel-Kurald-Galain-s-Guide-to-the-Magus)

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Bloodrager 20/Dragon Disciple 10 is nice and simple

[Tjlee003]

What do you want your character to do?

What does the rest of the party look like?

How new is your GM?
My GM has been doing this a while. This is his favorite set up for campaigns because it forces us out of the standard roles giving us more challenges at high levels.

Party is a 10 y/o human sorceress, a human kinetic knight, a tiefling Shaman, an insane elf wizard, and myself whatever that might be

I have decided that I want my character to be a self loathing being. That when pushed goes into a rage. I figured I would take bloodrager.

[Tjlee003]

Since you're going to level 30:
I'm assuming classes 'stop' at level 20?

How is spellcasting being treated?
Is the only benefit past 21 (PrC's) an increase in Caster level? Are spell slot/known tables being extended?

I have never be a character under this GM before. The way they explained it it was a multiclass or die situation. Meaning you gained no more caster levels unless you branched out into another caster class. I thought it was weird. I will ask him how it will work.


Are you using Crossblooded for both? Or on the fence which Bloodline to take?
If Crossblooded, be VERY wary of your Will Save. Bloodragers have poor Will Saves, Ifrit take a penalty to WIS, and Crossblooded drops you another -2 Will Save and drops your Bloodrage boost by -2 as well.
So when picking a Multiclass, keep an eye out for Good Will save, and other possible bonuses.

I was thinking of taking Aberrant due to being a Souleater. It gives me Aberrant tumor access that I was going to take protector on, but I don't think that works. I can't find the familiar archtypes in the Master tools app to confirm that, so I am going to have to find them in the books. Other than that my blood lines were fair game. I figured Abyssl for the bonus STR.


Also note that Enlarge Person doesn't work on you normally (bonus spell from Aberrant). Abyssal 4th level Bloodrage power DOES Enlarge you normally (and there is an alternate Race option for Ifrit to count as Humanoid/Human as well).

I have taken that option. Another question then, while being humanoid does the enlarge stack with the Abyssal enlarge?


Mad Magic is nigh mandatory if you multiclass into a caster.

If going Sorcerer, you will need to pick the same bloodline (but not necessarily the Crossblooded archetype), and niether Aberrant or Abyssal are all that great (not bad, just not great).

Would suggest PrC Dragon Disciple, but then your bloodline would have to be (part) Draconic. Which bring up an interesting question if you did go Bloodrager+Sorc+Dragon Disciple. It -can- stack for either class's bloodline, but would your DM allow it to stack for -both-?

Yes, I believe they would allow that. Is it really that beneficial to stack 3 classes like that? What shanagains would that make? Would we go straight Draconic?

[Tjlee003]

I am assuming you are needing to multiclass because you will cap out a single class by 20.

Most bloodragers do well with armor and more beatstick, less spells. I would probably not go sorcerer. You also have the option of prestige classing, which would net you 5-10 levels depending on the prestige class.

I would suggest paladin on top of bloodrager-the stacking charisma based boons and being a heavy armored melee class makes for very good synergy.

Due to my hatred of paladin, I would need some super shanagains to choose that class.

[grarrrg]

Yes, I believe they would allow that. Is it really that beneficial to stack 3 classes like that? What shanagains would that make? Would we go straight Draconic?

Exploring options right now mainly, "thinking out loud" as it were.

Bloodlines pretty much stop at level 20, and 20+ casting is doubtful, so Bloodrager20/DD10 isn't optimal.

But if DD will stack BOTH Bloodlines, then ending at Bloodrager 10/Sorc 10/DD 10 would get both Bloodlines to 20. There's a lot of overlap though (your element needs to match). But DD is worded loose enough that if you Crossblood it would progress both.
So (example) Cross Sorc Draconic/Abyssal, straight Bloodrager Draconic. Then grab mostly Abyssal stuff from the Sorc side of things.
You don't want both Crossblooded if you can help it, and Sorc Cross works better than Bloodrager Cross, as you don't get a 'double hit' on the Will save from losing the Bloodrage bonus.


I have taken that option. Another question then, while being humanoid does the enlarge stack with the Abyssal enlarge?
No. Size change things don't tend to stack, unless they very specifically state that they do.
You could benefit from Enlarge Person and the Abnormal Reach of Aberrant though for a +10ft. reach.

[upho]

I have never be a character under this GM before. The way they explained it it was a multiclass or die situation. Meaning you gained no more caster levels unless you branched out into another caster class. I thought it was weird. I will ask him how it will work.It's a bit weird, considering the system isn't designed for levels above 20, and isn't very good at handling levels beyond 15th or so. But of course, it can be done without requiring tons of complicated house rules, but the GM is gonna need to pimp the opposition a lot. Also, you and the other players might wanna consider optimizing more for practical playability than in a more typical game. You're bound to have an abundance of mechanical options available in higher levels, which may very well bring gameplay in general, and combat in particular, to a near halt if not counteracted through build choices and careful preparations before each session.

But more importantly, I really think you should ask the GM to try defining the mechanical power level they expect a PC to have in this game, especially since you haven't played with them before. This is important in order for you to plan your build properly, and for posters here to give relevant advice that won't have your build unintentionally ruin the fun of the game (a build based on the bloodrager can be made into the most efficient and powerful full bab damage dealer possible in the game, and a highly optimized sorcerer will easily break most games into a thousand little pieces). And what you've said so far about the other players' PCs unfortunately doesn't help very much, since at least the shaman, sorcerer and wizard could be virtually anything ranging from pathetic weaklings to god-like powerhouses, all depending on how well they're built and played. (The kinetic knight probably won't be quite as ineffective even if poorly built and played, but also won't have even remotely the same power potential as the other three party members' classes have if just decently optimized.)

Meanwhile, I can offer a few pointers and more general advice regarding which options/combos typically give your character stronger mechanics. So please keep in mind that the following may not be suited for the game's expected power level.


I want to start with an ifrit Bloodrager (Aberrant\Abyssl) Spelleater.As other posters have said, the crossblooded bloodrager is very risky. And in most games, the spelleater archetype doesn't give nearly as much as it takes away. The fast healing it provides isn't even remotely high enough to be meaningful in combat. And even with sorcerer spells, I'd say unused bloodrager spell slots are typically easily ten times as valuable as 1d8 healing/spell level, and as the game continues all the way up to 30th, this ability likely won't even be much of an emergency button. Meanwhile, at least uncanny dodge is bound to be a life-saver more than a few times, and may be vital if you're going for a more "tanky" defender combat role and/or a AoO-reach combat style.


I was thinking of taking Aberrant due to being a Souleater. It gives me Aberrant tumor access that I was going to take protector on, but I don't think that works. I can't find the familiar archtypes in the Master tools app to confirm that, so I am going to have to find them in the books.Unfortunately, a tumor familiar explicitly cannot take the protector archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes/protector-familiar-archetype/).


Other than that my blood lines were fair game. I figured Abyssl for the bonus STR.The abyssal is a bit odd. It's generally not a very strong bloodline, but pretty great with natural attacks and archetypes such as the bloodrider and primalist, allowing your mount to become nearly as big a mountain of melee muscle as yourself. So if your aim is to be able to easily one-shot the tarrasque before 20th level, it's probably the best... Anyhow, if you do decide on abyssal, try to compensate for your low AC through other options increasing your durability in melee, such as the Increased Damage Reduction and Come and Get Me rage powers (via primalist archetype), Raging Vitality, Combat Reflexes, reach weapon, etc.

But I fully agree with Grarrrg that draconic with Dragon Disciple would be a much stronger option for your game. And if you want to seriously boost your Str without having to go crossblooded draconic/abyssal sorcerer, I'd recommend the Eldritch Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/greater-eldritch-heritage/) feat line for Orc bloodline powers, netting you even more muscle than the sorcerer's abyssal can (although its Power of Giants power won't stack with the DD's form of the dragon). And yes, with the Str boosts from bloodrage, DD and orc bloodline powers, your Str score can get pretty darn high.


Is it really that beneficial to stack 3 classes like that? What shanagains would that make? Would we go straight Draconic?Aside from what Grarrrg wrote, depending on the combat role(s) and melee combat style you decide on, there may be additional classes you should consider dipping one or two levels in.

As you can probably tell, both the bloodrager draconic bloodline and the DD PrC will give you strong natural attacks, ideal for a melee damage dealer focusing on such attacks. This in turn makes for example the following options very interesting:

Master of Many Styles Monk 1: +2 to all saves, free Improved Unarmed Strike (for prerequisites), Stunning Fist (for prerequisites) and Dragon Style (highly fitting flavor and useful)
Ragechemist Vivisectionist Alchemist 2: Not before your Will is sufficiently high to deal with the DC 15 save the ragechemist imposes! Nets you +6 alchemical bonus to Str, a little Sneak Attack damage, and especially alchemical discovery: Vestigial Arm.
Primalist archetype: Replace the 8th and 12th level Draconic bloodline powers with the Boar's Charge and Beast Totem rage powers for an additional pair of high damage claws and pounce.

Feats
Power Attack standard
Feral Combat Training (claws) your claws gain the benefits of Dragon Style
Dragon Ferocity add 2 x Str mod to your first claw attack's damage, 1.5 x Str mod to the following claw attacks each round, which also means your bonus from Power Attack increases to 3 x attack penalty, equal to that of weapons wielded two-handed!
Extra Discovery (second vestigial arm) with two vestigial arms, you can replace your monk unarmed strikes with claw attacks using your new arms.
Horn of the Criosphinx When it absolutely, positively has to be utterly annihilated: 2 x Str mod and the two-handed Power Attack bonus to all your attacks when you pounce.

Items
Helm of the Mammoth Lord Gore, primary natural attack.
Fleshwarped Scorpion's Tail (attached) Sting, primary natural attack (with a bit of poison).
Furious Amulet of Mighty Fists +2 enhancement bonus while raging.

With a ridiculously high Str, several very accurate and damaging natural attacks (including a gore auto-crit) and pounce, each turn you take in combat is likely to result in a LOT of pain. I mean "anything I can attack will be fine red mist"-levels of pain...

Again, remember that it's a very bad idea to actually combine all the above unless your game actually expects this silly level of overkill potential. But it should be acceptable for you to take some of the options, as natural attacks can otherwise be kinda difficult to keep competitive with manufactured weapons in higher levels.

Hope this may at least give you some inspiration. And I'd be happy to help with the sorcerer side and better balanced suggestions once you have some more info about your game and your preferences.

[grarrrg]

Vestigial Arm.
Primalist archetype: Replace the 8th and 12th level Draconic bloodline powers with the Boar's Charge and Beast Totem rage powers for an additional pair of high damage claws and pounce.

...Feral Combat Training (claws) your claws gain the benefits of Dragon Style
Dragon Ferocity add 2 x Str mod to your first claw attack's damage, 1.5 x Str mod to the following claw attacks each round, which also means your bonus from Power Attack increases to 3 x attack penalty, equal to that of weapons wielded two-handed!
Extra Discovery (second vestigial arm) with two vestigial arms, you can replace your monk unarmed strikes with claw attacks using your new arms.


Clarifying: Vestigial arms (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9rc5) NEVER allow extra attacks with them. Whenever you go to make attacks, pretend 2 of your arms do not exist. Regardless of feats/abilities/claws etc...

Vestigial Arms can still be handy (lol) for casting Spells with full hands, or holding an item ready, but no attacks.

[upho]

Clarifying: Vestigial arms (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9rc5) NEVER allow extra attacks with them. Whenever you go to make attacks, pretend 2 of your arms do not exist. Regardless of feats/abilities/claws etc...

Vestigial Arms can still be handy (lol) for casting Spells with full hands, or holding an item ready, but no attacks.That's actually not entirely correct AFAIK. Like you said, the arms never allow for extra attacks. They can however be used to make attacks in place of attacks made with other limbs, according to RAW and related FAQ entry (my emphasis):

Vestigial Arm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/Alchemist/discoveries/paizo-alchemist-discoveries/vestigial-arm-ex): "The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting)."

FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9rc5): "Alchemist, Tentacle/Vestigial Arm: What does "extra attacks" mean for these discoveries? - It means "extra," as in "more than you would be able to make if you didn't have that discovery"."

Note also the monk's unarmed strike feature (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/Monk/#TOC-Unarmed-Strike): "A monk’s attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full."

In effect, a character with at least bab +6 (or TWF), one level of monk, two vestigial arm discoveries and two pairs of claws would typically have the following melee full attack options:

Not using vestigial arms 2 unarmed strikes +6/+1 and 2 claws (secondary) +1/+1 = 4 attacks

OR

Using vestigial arms 4 claws (primary) +6/+6/+6/+6 = 4 attacks

The PDT's intent may have been different, but AFAICT the current rules as written clearly allow for the above. Please let me know if I've missed something here.

[grarrrg]

It means "extra," as in "more than you would be able to make if you didn't have that discovery"
...
The PDT's intent may have been different, but AFAICT the current rules as written clearly allow for the above. Please let me know if I've missed something here.
You are interpreting "extra" as purely a number. I am interpreting it in a slightly broader sense of "Could you still do those attacks without the extra arms?", based on the sheer wordiness of the FAQ. If it was just a number it wouldn't necessarily be so cumbersome.
>4 Claw attacks is not normally possible, so it should not be possible with Vestigial Arms added.

The FAQ as a whole seems very much against you benefiting in any meaningful way attack-wise, and being able to turn a +6/+1/+1/+1 (with 2 of those at 1/2 STR) into a +6/+6/+6/+6 (all at full STR) seems very much beneficial and against the spirit of the FAQ.


I do admit the wording could be a bit clearer for either interpretation, and they could have saved themselves a bit of trouble if they had just made the arms "you get an extra arm, it can hold/cast/grab stuff, but can never be used to attack ever".