So 1 spell per turn only (including cantrips) if the casting time is 1 bonus action?

[samcifer]

So during the final battle last night against a whale while we were at sea trying to reach a new island as a manipulative npc took over the citadel we called home and is now the ruler who wants to execute us for stopping another bigoted npc who was killing rioting citizens and the homeless who were surrendering, I had a sad reality come to me when I took my first turn.

So apparently, even if the casting time is 1 bonus action, if I cast a spell like Hex, I can't even cast a cantrip on the same turn unless I use quicken, and I was a lv. 2 sorc, so not mm yet. The problem is, Hex is a bonus action to cast and you only get one bonus action per turn, so leveled spells that are bonus action can apparently never be cast during the same turn as any other spell, even with quicken. If this is so, as a spellcaster, there's no point in having non-damaging bonus action to cast spells in my list if I want to do damage every turn and Hex is effectively a dead spell for me unless I want to lose a turn of combat, which is a really bad idea as a blaster because most battles for us last two rounds, maybe three if a second wave of foes comes in. (Our battles go very quickly).

IS is this true? You can cast a bonus action to cast spell or you can cast a cantrip and a quickened cantrip or leveled spell with a casting time of 1 action if you use quickened metamagic and that's it?

:(

[techsamurai5000]

No, that is not true. If you cast a bonus action spell, you can cast a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action in the same turn. See page 202 of the Player's Handbook under the section "Bonus Action."

"You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."

[techsamurai5000]

However, that also means you can't cast 2 spells with a casting time of 1 bonus action in a turn (so quickened spell won't help you here). You only get 1 bonus action and you can't use an action to cast a bonus action spell.

[samcifer]

No, that is not true. If you cast a bonus action spell, you can cast a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action in the same turn. See page 202 of the Player's Handbook under the section "Bonus Action."

"You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."

When I asked that very question of the dm, he sited the new spellcasting rules from XGtE and said I couldn't use Hex then a cantrip (Eldritch Blast) during the same turn. Note: I did not use quicken metamagic as I didn't have access to it yet.

[Unoriginal]

You killed a whale in 2-3 rounds at level 2?


When I asked that very question of the dm, he sited the new spellcasting rules from XGtE and said I couldn't use Hex then a cantrip (Eldritch Blast) during the same turn. Note: I did not use quicken metamagic as I didn't have access to it yet.

There is no new rules about this in the Xanathar's.

[samcifer]

You killed a whale in 2-3 rounds at level 2?

Total character Lv. was 4. I'm a Divine Soul 2 / Hexblade 2. Just reached DS 3 after that battle (character level 5).

[samcifer]

However, that also means you can't cast 2 spells with a casting time of 1 bonus action in a turn (so quickened spell won't help you here). You only get 1 bonus action and you can't use an action to cast a bonus action spell.

Right. I used my bonus action to cast Hex, then when I tried to use my regular action to cast EB, the dm said no. I can only cast 2 spells per turn if I quickened one of them, which can't work when a bonus action spell like Hex is one of them because it's not also a normal action.

[Unoriginal]

Right. I used my bonus action to cast Hex, then when I tried to use my regular action to cast EB, the dm said no. I can only cast 2 spells per turn if I quickened one of them, which can't work when a bonus action spell like Hex is one of them because it's not also a normal action.

Your DM is not following the rules.

[LeonBH]

I had a hard time parsing your question, so I will break it down and try to answer it carefully.


So apparently, even if the casting time is 1 bonus action, if I cast a spell like Hex, I can't even cast a cantrip on the same turn unless I use quicken, and I was a lv. 2 sorc, so not mm yet.

If you cast Hex (a bonus action spell), you can cast a cantrip as an action, but not another spell of level 1 or higher.

Also, if you cast Hex, you've used your bonus action on that round already. You cannot use Quicken Spell anymore because you have no bonus actions left to spend.


The problem is, Hex is a bonus action to cast and you only get one bonus action per turn, so leveled spells that are bonus action can apparently never be cast during the same turn as any other spell, even with quicken.

This is correct. For example, you cannot Quicken Cure Wounds and also cast Healing Word, because that requires two bonus actions.


If this is so, as a spellcaster, there's no point in having non-damaging bonus action to cast spells in my list if I want to do damage every turn and Hex is effectively a dead spell for me unless I want to lose a turn of combat

Casting Hex does not preclude Eldritch Blast. So you will not be skipping a round of damage.

[LeonBH]

Right. I used my bonus action to cast Hex, then when I tried to use my regular action to cast EB, the dm said no. I can only cast 2 spells per turn if I quickened one of them, which can't work when a bonus action spell like Hex is one of them because it's not also a normal action.

Quicken Spell does not enable you to cast two spells per turn. You can always cast two spells per turn if you have the spells to do that with. Quicken Spell lets you cast a combination of two spells in the same turn that you otherwise would not have been able to combine.

Fireball and Firebolt nomally cannot be cast in the same turn. Quicken Spell makes it possible. But if the spell already has a bonus action cast time, there is no need to Quicken it. Think of it as an always-on-Quickened spell.

Did you know you can cast two leveled spells in the same turn if you have Action Surge, as long as you don't also cast a bonus action spell? A Fighter 2/Wizard 5 can cast two Fireballs in the same turn, once per short rest.

But when you have a Fighter 2/Wizard 5 who tries to cast Fireball, Fireball, and Misty Step, the turn becomes illegal due to Misty Step. You would only be able to cast two cantrips along with Misty Step.

[techsamurai5000]

When I asked that very question of the dm, he sited the new spellcasting rules from XGtE and said I couldn't use Hex then a cantrip (Eldritch Blast) during the same turn. Note: I did not use quicken metamagic as I didn't have access to it yet.

Get him to SHOW you the rules. The only new rules in XGtE are about the following:

Perceiving a Caster at Work
Identifying a Spell
Invalid Spell Targets
Areas of Effect on a Grid

Nothing about casting times or number of spells.

[samcifer]

I had a hard time parsing your question, so I will break it down and try to answer it carefully.



If you cast Hex (a bonus action spell), you can cast a cantrip as an action, but not another spell of level 1 or higher.

Also, if you cast Hex, you've used your bonus action on that round already. You cannot use Quicken Spell anymore because you have no bonus actions left to spend.



This is correct. For example, you cannot Quicken Cure Wounds and also cast Healing Word, because that requires two bonus actions.



Casting Hex does not preclude Eldritch Blast. So you will not be skipping a round of damage.

Okay, so the clarify my dilemma:

During my first turn of combat as a sorc 2/warlock 2, I began the turn by using my bonus action to cast Hex on the whale. Then as I still had my regular action left to use and knowing only 1 spell of level 1 or higher can be cast per turn, I wanted to use my normal action to cast Eldritch Blast cantrip on the whale during the same turn, but the dm said I could only do that if I quickened one of the spells and as I didn't have access to metamagic yet, I couldn't do so anyways.

Since Hex is 1 bonus action to cast and quicken makes a spell with a cast time of 1 action into a cast time of 1 bonus action and you only get one bonus action per turn, the combo wouldn't be legal with quicken anyways. I was going off the PHB rule that you can only cast one leveled spell per turn and any other spells you cast during a turn must be a cantrip. I had thought my tactic was legal, but the dm said it was not and said he was going off the new spellcasting rules in XGtE, but there's no mention of not being able to cast a cantrip and a leveled spell during the same turn, metamagc or no.

I know quicken can let you turn a 1 action leveled spell or cantrip into a bonus action and also use a cantrip (a second one of the quickened spell was also a cantrip) during the same turn, such as quickening Chromatic OOrb to cast as a bonus action, then use your regular action to cast the Fire Bolt cantrip during the same turn.

Since Hex is a bonus action to cast, it cannot be quickened and it uses the only bonus action, so quickening a cantrip wouldn't work since you already used your bonus action for the turn.

I had thought that a leveled spell that is normally cast as a bonus action would allow me to cast a cantrip as my normal action during the same turn, but the dm said no to that.

[Dalebert]

It's already clear what happened and your DM doesn't understand the rules. Hex is already a bonus action. It doesn't need to be quickened. Quicken turns a 1 action spell into a bonus action to cast. It's not needed.

The rule he's messing up is this:
When you cast a bonus action spell (such as Hex) the only other spell you can cast that same turn is a cantrip with a casting time of one action (such as Eldritch Blast).

Hex is intended to be cast right before Eldritch Blast during the same turn. It can be used in other ways of course, but that's exactly how they expected warlocks to use it the most.

[techsamurai5000]

Okay, so the clarify my dilemma:

During my first turn of combat as a sorc 2/warlock 2, I began the turn by using my bonus action to cast Hex on the whale. Then as I still had my regular action left to use and knowing only 1 spell of level 1 or higher can be cast per turn, I wanted to use my normal action to cast Eldritch Blast cantrip on the whale during the same turn, but the dm said I could only do that if I quickened one of the spells and as I didn't have access to metamagic yet, I couldn't do so anyways.

Since Hex is 1 bonus action to cast and quicken makes a spell with a cast time of 1 action into a cast time of 1 bonus action and you only get one bonus action per turn, the combo wouldn't be legal with quicken anyways. I was going off the PHB rule that you can only cast one leveled spell per turn and any other spells you cast during a turn must be a cantrip. I had thought my tactic was legal, but the dm said it was not and said he was going off the new spellcasting rules in XGtE, but there's no mention of not being able to cast a cantrip and a leveled spell during the same turn, metamagc or no.

I know quicken can let you turn a 1 action leveled spell or cantrip into a bonus action and also use a cantrip (a second one of the quickened spell was also a cantrip) during the same turn, such as quickening Chromatic OOrb to cast as a bonus action, then use your regular action to cast the Fire Bolt cantrip during the same turn.

Since Hex is a bonus action to cast, it cannot be quickened and it uses the only bonus action, so quickening a cantrip wouldn't work since you already used your bonus action for the turn.

I had thought that a leveled spell that is normally cast as a bonus action would allow me to cast a cantrip as my normal action during the same turn, but the dm said no to that.

You are right, your DM is wrong. There are no new spellcasting rules regarding bonus actions/actions/# of spells per turn in XGtE.

[samcifer]

Another possible scenario:

Enemies are near me and I want to attack as well as escape to safety during thee same turn. The only way to get out safely is to use Misty Step to teleport away. Misty Step is a lv. 2 spell with a casting time of 1 bonus action.

Couldnt't I cast MS to get clear, then as my regular action cast a cantrip like Fire Bolt or Eldritch Blast during the same turn after I MS away?

[Dalebert]

Couldnt't I cast MS to get clear, then as my regular action cast a cantrip like Fire Bolt or Eldritch Blast during the same turn after I MS away?

Yes, absolutely. In fact that's possibly the most common tactic when using Misty Step.

[Unoriginal]

Okay, so the clarify my dilemma:

During my first turn of combat as a sorc 2/warlock 2, I began the turn by using my bonus action to cast Hex on the whale. Then as I still had my regular action left to use and knowing only 1 spell of level 1 or higher can be cast per turn, I wanted to use my normal action to cast Eldritch Blast cantrip on the whale during the same turn, but the dm said I could only do that if I quickened one of the spells and as I didn't have access to metamagic yet, I couldn't do so anyways.

There is no dilemma. You can cast Hex with your bonus action and Eldritch Blast as an action.




Since Hex is 1 bonus action to cast and quicken makes a spell with a cast time of 1 action into a cast time of 1 bonus action and you only get one bonus action per turn, the combo wouldn't be legal with quicken anyways. I was going off the PHB rule that you can only cast one leveled spell per turn and any other spells you cast during a turn must be a cantrip. I had thought my tactic was legal, but the dm said it was not and said he was going off the new spellcasting rules in XGtE, but there's no mention of not being able to cast a cantrip and a leveled spell during the same turn, metamagc or no.


Yes, it is legal. Your DM is not following the rules, and there is nothing in the Xanathar's Guide to everything that would justify that.

As everyone has been saying.



I had thought that a leveled spell that is normally cast as a bonus action would allow me to cast a cantrip as my normal action during the same turn, but the dm said no to that.

Once again, yes you can. Your DM is not following RAW. Which is something they can do, but they don't get to pretend it's RAW.

[LeonBH]

Okay, so the clarify my dilemma:

During my first turn of combat as a sorc 2/warlock 2, I began the turn by using my bonus action to cast Hex on the whale. Then as I still had my regular action left to use and knowing only 1 spell of level 1 or higher can be cast per turn, I wanted to use my normal action to cast Eldritch Blast cantrip on the whale during the same turn, but the dm said I could only do that if I quickened one of the spells and as I didn't have access to metamagic yet, I couldn't do so anyways.

Since Hex is 1 bonus action to cast and quicken makes a spell with a cast time of 1 action into a cast time of 1 bonus action and you only get one bonus action per turn, the combo wouldn't be legal with quicken anyways. I was going off the PHB rule that you can only cast one leveled spell per turn and any other spells you cast during a turn must be a cantrip. I had thought my tactic was legal, but the dm said it was not and said he was going off the new spellcasting rules in XGtE, but there's no mention of not being able to cast a cantrip and a leveled spell during the same turn, metamagc or no.

I know quicken can let you turn a 1 action leveled spell or cantrip into a bonus action and also use a cantrip (a second one of the quickened spell was also a cantrip) during the same turn, such as quickening Chromatic OOrb to cast as a bonus action, then use your regular action to cast the Fire Bolt cantrip during the same turn.

Since Hex is a bonus action to cast, it cannot be quickened and it uses the only bonus action, so quickening a cantrip wouldn't work since you already used your bonus action for the turn.

I had thought that a leveled spell that is normally cast as a bonus action would allow me to cast a cantrip as my normal action during the same turn, but the dm said no to that.

The issue is that your DM thinks you have to use Quicken Spell to allow a leveled spell and a cantrip in the same turn, and he is apparently referencing Xanathar's Guide for this.

There is no rule in Xanathar's Guide that changes the core spellcasting rules. In short, your DM was wrong.

You should ask them to clarify where it was in the book. They shouldn't be able to show you a section, since it doesn't exist... but if they do, let us know, because that's an interesting discussion.

[Tanarii]

Get him to SHOW you the rules. The only new rules in XGtE are about the following:

Perceiving a Caster at Work
Identifying a Spell
Invalid Spell Targets
Areas of Effect on a Grid

Nothing about casting times or number of spells.
Xanathar's page 5 reiterates the PHB rule on bonus action spells.

Bonus Action Spells
If you want to cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 bonus action, remember that you can't cast any other spells before or after it on the same turn, except for cantrips with a casting time of 1 action.

It does not change the rule. DM in question has the rule wrong. A Eldritch Blast is a cantrip with a casting time of one action, so PCs can cast it before or after casting Hex on the same turn.

[Puh Laden]

Okay, so the clarify my dilemma:

During my first turn of combat as a sorc 2/warlock 2, I began the turn by using my bonus action to cast Hex on the whale. Then as I still had my regular action left to use and knowing only 1 spell of level 1 or higher can be cast per turn, I wanted to use my normal action to cast Eldritch Blast cantrip on the whale during the same turn, but the dm said I could only do that if I quickened one of the spells and as I didn't have access to metamagic yet, I couldn't do so anyways.

Since Hex is 1 bonus action to cast and quicken makes a spell with a cast time of 1 action into a cast time of 1 bonus action and you only get one bonus action per turn, the combo wouldn't be legal with quicken anyways. I was going off the PHB rule that you can only cast one leveled spell per turn and any other spells you cast during a turn must be a cantrip. I had thought my tactic was legal, but the dm said it was not and said he was going off the new spellcasting rules in XGtE, but there's no mention of not being able to cast a cantrip and a leveled spell during the same turn, metamagc or no.

I know quicken can let you turn a 1 action leveled spell or cantrip into a bonus action and also use a cantrip (a second one of the quickened spell was also a cantrip) during the same turn, such as quickening Chromatic OOrb to cast as a bonus action, then use your regular action to cast the Fire Bolt cantrip during the same turn.

Since Hex is a bonus action to cast, it cannot be quickened and it uses the only bonus action, so quickening a cantrip wouldn't work since you already used your bonus action for the turn.

I had thought that a leveled spell that is normally cast as a bonus action would allow me to cast a cantrip as my normal action during the same turn, but the dm said no to that.

Your DM sounds new. It almost sounds like your DM didn't realize hex has a casting time of 1 bonus action. Even if you told him, it might not have registered. I suggest showing him the rules for casting spells with a bonus action, and then show him that hex has a casting time of 1 bonus action. If he still goes with his houserule after showing him the rules, I would personally look for a new DM. But then, not much rubs me the wrong way more than a DM who doesn't know the rules and then pridefully refuses to use them when shown he's wrong. (If a DM's upfront with houserules before character creation, or if he's using houserules that don't affect character builds that much, that's fine with me.) But then, you're not me.

[techsamurai5000]

Xanathar's page 5 reiterates the PHB rule on bonus action spells.

Bonus Action Spells
If you want to cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 bonus action, remember that you can't cast any other spells before or after it on the same turn, except for cantrips with a casting time of 1 action.

It does not change the rule. DM in question has the rule wrong. A Eldritch Blast is a cantrip with a casting time of one action, so PCs can cast it before or after casting Hex on the same turn.

Ahh, missed that. But my point (and everyone else's in this thread) still stands. :smallwink:

[Dalebert]

Link this thread for your DM perhaps. He can still make a house rule if he wants to but I would have a hard time understanding the point of that. Hex is intended to be cast right before making an attack with a cantrip. That's the point.

[samcifer]

Xanathar's page 5 reiterates the PHB rule on bonus action spells.

Bonus Action Spells
If you want to cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 bonus action, remember that you can't cast any other spells before or after it on the same turn, except for cantrips with a casting time of 1 action.

It does not change the rule. DM in question has the rule wrong. A Eldritch Blast is a cantrip with a casting time of one action, so PCs can cast it before or after casting Hex on the same turn.

Okay, so showed the dm this thread thru facebook and he agreed that I was right and he was wrong, so I can use such strategies in future battles. :)

Also showed him your quote from XGtE, Tanarii, so thanks for that to you and to everyone else for helping to verify this issue. :)

[LeonBH]

Glad to be helpful. Enjoy your campaign.

Out of curiosity, what is your sorcerous origin and who is your patron?

[samcifer]

Your DM sounds new.

It's more likely due to the fact that we drink during our games. We run rated M gameplay and content and whenever someone gets a crit, we drink and starting last night, we all also take a half-shot on a botch, which I did against the whale when I botched a lightning Chromatic Orb. ur bear-form moon druid got 5d8 damage due to the botch and the whale was unharmed. At least it botched it's attack roll to ram the ship, hit a piton another player had attached to the side of the ship instead, gouging it's head and taking critical damage from it. We also take a shot at the start of each battle.

Sometimes we're a bit out of it and that was towards the end of the night. No one passed out, but I was having balance issues by then, but still able to strategize fairly effectively. :)

To be clear, the dm has a lot of experience in running and even playing. He just missed the part of the XGtE ruling where it says cantrips can still be cast, which is the same as in the PHB, but more clearly worded now.

[samcifer]

Glad to be helpful. Enjoy your campaign.

Out of curiosity, what is your sorcerous origin and who is your patron?

Divine Soul sorc and hexblade patron for being versatile in combat. As for the specific patron, the dm only rp-ed the patron approaching me and a dream to forge the pact, then he whispered to me once during the same session and even though the dm mentioned having developed a better voice for him, the patron hasin't had any more appearances or interaction with me since. I'm nervous to remind him of it as he likes to 'have fun' with us at times. I can picture his evil dm grin now, come to think of it...

I'm scared. :(

[Christian]

Friends don't let friends DM drunk.

Or at least, friends accept that rulings get weirder the drunker the DM is.

[LeonBH]

Divine Soul sorc and hexblade patron for being versatile in combat. As for the specific patron, the dm only rp-ed the patron approaching me and a dream to forge the pact, then he whispered to me once during the same session and even though the dm mentioned having developed a better voice for him, the patron hasin't had any more appearances or interaction with me since. I'm nervous to remind him of it as he likes to 'have fun' with us at times. I can picture his evil dm grin now, come to think of it...

I'm scared. :(

Sounds fun, honestly. I can see you killing those hordes right now...

I'm playing a Favored Soul Sorc/Archfey Blade Pact Lock, which I think is similar enough to your build. It's super effective.

[samcifer]

Sounds fun, honestly. I can see you killing those hordes right now...

I'm playing a Favored Soul Sorc/Archfey Blade Pact Lock, which I think is similar enough to your build. It's super effective.

I'm primarily an 'armored turret spellcaster'. 19 AC from HB granting proficiency with chainmail and shields, +2 dex and a +1 ac amulet. I also have the shield spell and have been attacking from range, but have a +2 longsword I'd like to start using, but only have 32 HP at total character lvl. 5. Strongly considering getting the Tough feat at lv. 6 (sorcerer lv. 4) to boost my ac so I can get into melee for a bit of variety. (I know about concentration being possibly interrupted by being attacked and provoking OAs from attacking with ranged spells if in melee. Also thinking of the War caster feat later on once I have more HP to keep from being cut down too quickly. I really want to have versatility in combat and haven't swung my +2 longsword or any sword at all in combat as of yet and want the option to do so.

I'm mainly a blaster type, but want to be a bit of a Jack-of-all-trades type of character. This is my first time playing anything other than 4e and that was playing a wizard, but want to be able to melee AND spellcast from a low level. I know about Eldritch Knight, but that involves a limited spell list and waiting til lv. 3 to start getting decent at attacking.

[Tanarii]

Okay, so showed the dm this thread thru facebook and he agreed that I was right and he was wrong, so I can use such strategies in future battles. :)

Also showed him your quote from XGtE, Tanarii, so thanks for that to you and to everyone else for helping to verify this issue. :)Good for him. Being wrong as a DM isn't a crime, and a willingness to look at a online thread where everyone is saying you're wrong, and admitting it instead of hardening ones position indicates a reasonable person. Especially since comments in them can often be brutally direct and even insulting. (Not saying that happened in this particular thread, just that it's common for DMs that are wrong to be roundly lambasted.)


Friends don't let friends DM drunk.

Or at least, friends accept that rulings get weirder the drunker the DM is.
Lol yup. And DMing for drunk players gets weird or silly, and sometimes even just stupid, pretty fast. :smallbiggrin:

[LeonBH]

I'm primarily an 'armored turret spellcaster'. 19 AC from HB granting proficiency with chainmail and shields, +2 dex and a +1 ac amulet. I also have the shield spell and have been attacking from range, but have a +2 longsword I'd like to start using, but only have 32 HP at total character lvl. 5. Strongly considering getting the Tough feat at lv. 6 (sorcerer lv. 4) to boost my ac so I can get into melee for a bit of variety. (I know about concentration being possibly interrupted by being attacked and provoking OAs from attacking with ranged spells if in melee. Also thinking of the War caster feat later on once I have more HP to keep from being cut down too quickly. I really want to have versatility in combat and haven't swung my +2 longsword or any sword at all in combat as of yet and want the option to do so.

I'm mainly a blaster type, but want to be a bit of a Jack-of-all-trades type of character. This is my first time playing anything other than 4e and that was playing a wizard, but want to be able to melee AND spellcast from a low level. I know about Eldritch Knight, but that involves a limited spell list and waiting til lv. 3 to start getting decent at attacking.

Ooh, don't take too many feats too quickly. Max out your Charisma to 20 first or you'll find yourself falling back as the enemies get tougher. You'll feel that lack of bonus modifier to your DC and attack rolls as the level of difficulty gets high enough.

Being a jack-of-all-trades is very possible as a Sorlock (especially as a Divine Soul/Hexblade) but you have to wait til you're a high enough level to do so. But you need a maxed out stat to achieve that.