Unintended Builds

[Easy_Lee]

This is a thread dedicated to builds that the designers probably did not intend. When game mechanics combine to allow a character to do things not normally possible and likely not intended, that's an unintended build.

Some "unintended builds" may actually be intended, or partially intended - using Polearm Master and the Dueling fighting style with a one-handed quarterstaff is a popular example. But they may still qualify if the feature combination is non-obvious or has the appearance of an exploit.


Unintended mechanics are a sensitive topic. Some feel that the game should be played only in the way the developers intended. Using only the rules as intended, RAI, is common on forums and may also be common in play.

The point of this thread is not to offend, insist that these builds are valid in any game, or tell others how to play the game. All methods of play are valid; please be respectful of others' opinions and play styles.
To start the thread, here are three unintended builds.

Rogue: Magic Stone Sneak Attack
One normally cannot sneak attack with a ranged spell attack. Sneak Attack requires one to use a finesse or ranged weapon to deliver the attack, and spell attacks cannot normally be delivered with a ranged weapon.

But rogues can use Magic Initiate or similar to pick up the spell Magic Stone, then deliver the rocks with a sling. This qualifies for sneak attack but counts as a ranged spell attack using Wisdom. Depending on one's build, this opens up new possibilities for a SAD character. Notably, an Inquisitive Rogue who does this on a wisdom build with expertise: perception and the Observant feat can make some truly spectacular Perception checks.

Ranger Beast Master: Mounted Combat
The beast master ranger normally must use his action or bonus action to command his companion to take any action. However, the mounted combat rules allow the rider to command the mount to dash, dodge, or disengage without consuming any of the rider's actions.

Beast masters are limited to medium and smaller beasts, but a small character can ride a medium beast. There is lore support for this: see halflings and mastiffs. If the ranger puts an appropriate saddle on his medium-sized companion, he can ride it into combat and command it to take these actions without consuming his own actions.

Coffeelock / Javalock / Insomnia Sorlock
Everyone on the forum should know this one by now. By combining warlock short rest spell slots with the sorcerer's Flexible Casting feature, one can create additional sorcerer spell slots (up to 5th level) using warlock slots. There is no level requirement for creating spell slots, only a Sorcery Point requirement. A sorcerer can create 5th level spell slots by sorcerer level 6 7.

These slots disappear after you take a long rest. If you add the new Pact of Tome invocation Aspect of the Moon, your character no longer needs to sleep. As a result, this character can create an unlimited number of new spell slots which last indefinitely.

What unintended builds have you used?

[Dualswinger]

I'm partial to the "Tensers Transformed Transport"

Using Magical Secrets from a bard (or wish with a wizard) to "Find Greater Steed" and then use Tenser's Transformation on both yourself and your mount.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Arcane Trickster + Booming Blade (and to a lesser extent, Green Flame Blade) seems a little fishy to me-- the cantrips are fine when augmenting a single-attack-with-minor-boosts class like a Draconic Sorcerer or Cleric, but I suspect no-one thought of the single-attack-doing-damage-like-multiple-attacks Rogue.

Wish-Simulacrum loop should also qualify.

[JNAProductions]

Wish-Simulacrum loop should also qualify.

That's less a build and more a singular trick. But agreed, overall.

[nickl_2000]

I'm partial to the "Tensers Transformed Transport"

Using Magical Secrets from a bard (or wish with a wizard) to "Find Greater Steed" and then use Tenser's Transformation on both yourself and your mount.

I think most offensive spells usable on both you and your mount were un-intended. For example, fire breathing or polymorph with Find Greater Steed.



Honestly, I think most of the "power" builds weren't intended initially by the developers. The Sorcerer/Paladin for example.

[LeonBH]

A sorcerer can create 5th level spell slots by sorcerer level 6.

Sorcerer level 7, actually. They can create 4th level slots at level 6.

Here's an exploitative build: the Spike Growth Grappler. Take two levels of Rogue to gain expertise in Athletics as well as Cunning Action. Take three levels of Druid to gain Longstrider and Spike Growth. Max out your Strength. You should be able to get at least a +7 by level 4.

Have Longstrider on you as a buff, since it lasts 1 hour. Cast spike growth with your action at your opponent's feet, but exclude yourself from the area of effect (it creates an area of difficult terrain, which you do not want to cross).

Next turn, grapple someone with your action. If you succeed, use Cunning Action to Dash. You have 80ft of movement this round, but halved to 40ft since you're grappling someone.

Spike Growth deals 2d4 damage per 5ft moved, whether willingly or not. Run back and form between two squares until you've used all 40ft of movement to deal 16d4 (~40) magical piercing damage with no attack roll or saving throw.

On the next round, triple dash to dash 120ft, halved to 60ft. You get to deal 24d4 (~60) damage. Or grapple someone else and deal 16d4 damage to both of them.

Obvious buffs: Wood Elf, Mobile feat, Monk levels (Step of the Wind), Haste buff from ally.

[krugaan]

I'm partial to the "Tensers Transformed Transport"

Using Magical Secrets from a bard (or wish with a wizard) to "Find Greater Steed" and then use Tenser's Transformation on both yourself and your mount.

That's a neat idea, but i don't think range self spells actually "target" you, making them ineligible for twinning.

[nickl_2000]

That's a neat idea, but i don't think range self spells actually "target" you, making them ineligible for twinning.

It's not twinning, it's a find steed/greater find steed rider on that spell. The find X steed has something in there where any spell that you cast on yourself is also cast on the steed. The intent of this is basically, if I heal/buff myself I can do the same to the steed at the same time. Since you cast this on yourself, you will also do it to the steed.

[Potato_Priest]

Sorcerer level 7, actually. They can create 4th level slots at level 6.

Here's an exploitative build: the Spike Growth Grappler. Take two levels of Rogue to gain expertise in Athletics as well as Cunning Action. Take three levels of Druid to gain Longstrider and Spike Growth. Max out your Strength. You should be able to get at least a +7 by level 4.

Have Longstrider on you as a buff, since it lasts 1 hour. Cast spike growth with your action at your opponent's feet, but exclude yourself from the area of effect (it creates an area of difficult terrain, which you do not want to cross).

Next turn, grapple someone with your action. If you succeed, use Cunning Action to Dash. You have 80ft of movement this round, but halved to 40ft since you're grappling someone.


Even better:Ride a horse while grappling. You experience the speed penalty, not your mount, so you can command your horse to dash (move 120 ft) as a free action for 48d4damage.

[Easy_Lee]

It's not twinning, it's a find steed/greater find steed rider on that spell. The find X steed has something in there where any spell that you cast on yourself is also cast on the steed. The intent of this is basically, if I heal/buff myself I can do the same to the steed at the same time. Since you cast this on yourself, you will also do it to the steed.

The Find Steed language also uses the word "targets," as in a spell you cast that targets only you. That said, the idea of having this argument with a DM is abhorrent. Plain language ought dictate that a spell you cast on yourself only "targets" you.

[LeonBH]

Even better:Ride a horse while grappling. You experience the speed penalty, not your mount, so you can command your horse to dash (move 120 ft) as a free action for 48d4damage.

Very true. You can give your horse Longstrider to eke out an extra 20ft of movement, an extra 8d4 (~20) damage.

[Easy_Lee]

Even better:Ride a horse while grappling. You experience the speed penalty, not your mount, so you can command your horse to dash (move 120 ft) as a free action for 48d4damage.

I'm not sure if this would work unless you can avoid the damage your mount would take. Wouldn't a grappled target follow directly behind the target dragging him? I'm unsure if there is a RAW answer, meaning it would be up to the DM.

However, you might be able to do this while flying. Makes me think of that scene where Broly drags Vegata's face across a wall.

[Potato_Priest]

Very true. You can give your horse Longstrider to eke out an extra 20ft of movement, an extra 8d4 (~20) damage.

That brings the average damage from one round’s movement to 140. Very tidy for a 3nd level spell and no save, I think.

[krugaan]

The Find Steed language also uses the word "targets," as in a spell you cast that targets only you. That said, the idea of having this argument with a DM is abhorrent. Plain language ought dictate that a spell you cast on yourself only "targets" you.

This I think was intended, since a lot of self only spells are rather powerful buffs.

[LeonBH]

That brings the average damage from one round’s movement to 140. Very tidy for a 3nd level spell and no save, I think.

It's only a 2nd level spell, which is even better.


I'm not sure if this would work unless you can avoid the damage your mount would take. Wouldn't a grappled target follow directly behind the target dragging him? I'm unsure if there is a RAW answer, meaning it would be up to the DM.

However, you might be able to do this while flying. Makes me think of that scene where Broly drags Vegata's face across a wall.

They only need to move with you, not behind you.

"Moving a Grappled Creature. When you move, you can drag or carry the grappled creature with you, but your speed is halved, unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you."

So imagine Spike Growth is marked with "s", your grappled target is marked with "x", you/your horse is marked with "o", and regular ground is just "." Then you move this way:

1:
..ssx..
.....o..

2:
..sxs..
....o...

3:
..ssx..
.....o.

And repeat.

[NecroDancer]

The death from above/chain-lock build.

1. Be a small race

3. Play a chain-lock

4. Get eldritch blast

5. Summon an imp that carries you around while invisible

6. Anything the imp holds is invisible

7. You now can fly and be invisible without concentration while pelting the enemy with eldritch blasts

[Easy_Lee]

It's only a 2nd level spell, which is even better.



They only need to move with you, not behind you.

"Moving a Grappled Creature. When you move, you can drag or carry the grappled creature with you, but your speed is halved, unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you."

So imagine Spike Growth is marked with "s", your grappled target is marked with "x", you/your horse is marked with "o", and regular ground is just "." Then you move this way:

1:
..ssx..
.....o..

2:
..sxs..
....o...

3:
..ssx..
.....o.

And repeat.

Oh, I get it, don't get me wrong. But what I'm saying is that the text does not make it perfectly clear what happens to the grappled target who is dragged. That puts this in DM fiat territory.

[Avonar]

6. Anything the imp holds is invisible

Invisibility specifices equipment being carried. As you are not equiment I would say you would not go invisible from this.

[Potato_Priest]

Oh, I get it, don't get me wrong. But what I'm saying is that the text does not make it perfectly clear what happens to the grappled target who is dragged. That puts this in DM fiat territory.

This is pretty accurate. I can imagine a lot of DMs ruling that the target moves behind you, because it makes a fair bit of sense that way.

If they do, the build becomes more difficult, since you need a flying steed to pull it off well (or the ability to fly yourself).

I’d probably look into a bard. Take expertise athletics, and grab find greater steed and spike growth as magical secrets.

[LeonBH]

Oh, I get it, don't get me wrong. But what I'm saying is that the text does not make it perfectly clear what happens to the grappled target who is dragged. That puts this in DM fiat territory.

Hmm. There are several things going through my head.

The foremost thing is, asking for exploitative builds and telling people who participate that the builds don't work, is essentially a reverse advertisement to participate in the thread asking for ideas.

I'd rather not justify why it works, having just discussed with you why a CoffeeLock shouldn't be allowed in the game. It's strange to have to defend why an exploitative build works by RAW when I do not believe they should be introduced in a reasonable campaign.

I'll withdraw from this discussion. Happy idea collating.

[MrStabby]

The death from above/chain-lock build.

1. Be a small race

3. Play a chain-lock

4. Get eldritch blast

5. Summon an imp that carries you around while invisible

6. Anything the imp holds is invisible

7. You now can fly and be invisible without concentration while pelting the enemy with eldritch blasts

Any scope for the new invocation that pulls the target towards you? Any chance for getting some added falling damage on there?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Any scope for the new invocation that pulls the target towards you? Any chance for getting some added falling damage on there?
I like it >:D

[nickl_2000]

Any scope for the new invocation that pulls the target towards you? Any chance for getting some added falling damage on there?

That is an interesting concept. Levitate/fly 30 feet in the air above someone, hit them with two Eldritch blasts for 1d8+cha each. Both EBs pull them 15 feet in the air to you. Then let gravity take effect and drop them 30 feet to the ground for 3d6 extra damage.

Or if you really want to be cruel, attack at an angle and then you need to do geometry to figure out how far the person falls after being hit with EB

[JNAProductions]

That is an interesting concept. Levitate/fly 30 feet in the air above someone, hit them with two Eldritch blasts for 1d8+cha each. Both EBs pull them 15 feet in the air to you. Then let gravity take effect and drop them 30 feet to the ground for 3d6 extra damage.

Or if you really want to be cruel, attack at an angle and then you need to do geometry to figure out how far the person falls after being hit with EB

It's less than 30' down, though. So your most efficient damage is straight up.

[nickl_2000]

It's less than 30' down, though. So your most efficient damage is straight up.

Oh I understand that it's most effective straight up, the cruelity is to the players who have to do the geometry during combat

[Submortimer]

That is an interesting concept. Levitate/fly 30 feet in the air above someone, hit them with two Eldritch blasts for 1d8+cha each. Both EBs pull them 15 feet in the air to you. Then let gravity take effect and drop them 30 feet to the ground for 3d6 extra damage.

Or if you really want to be cruel, attack at an angle and then you need to do geometry to figure out how far the person falls after being hit with EB

Unfortunately, that doesn't work: Grasp of Hadar is a 1/turn kind of thing, unlike repelling blast.

Now, that said, I could see getting some falling damage by sliding under a creature and Repelling Blast -ing them straight up.

[JNAProductions]

Oh I understand that it's most effective straight up, the cruelity is to the players who have to do the geometry during combat

30' straight line is the hypotenuse. You're X feet up, so they go Square Root(90/X^2) feet over.

[Easy_Lee]

Unfortunately, that doesn't work: Grasp of Hadar is a 1/turn kind of thing, unlike repelling blast.

Now, that said, I could see getting some falling damage by sliding under a creature and Repelling Blast -ing them straight up.

There was a thread about that once involving a flying grappler bard and multiple warlocks holding their actions.

[Submortimer]

There was a thread about that once involving a flying grappler bard and multiple warlocks holding their actions.

Now, that might work. That said, I could also see that going like so:

Warlock 1: hits, pulls up, creature falls 10 feet.
Warlock 2: hits, pulls up, creature falls 10 feet.
Warlock 3: hits, pulls up, creature falls 10 feet.

and so on.

This is more "dribbling" the target instead of pulling them into the air and dropping them, but it's just about as effective and maybe even more amusing.

[krugaan]

Anyone else think that pushing things into walls should cause an equivalent amount of falling damage?

Like, if I repelling blast someone standing against a wall, they should take 1d6 "falling" damage?

[JNAProductions]

Anyone else think that pushing things into walls should cause an equivalent amount of falling damage?

Like, if I repelling blast someone standing against a wall, they should take 1d6 "falling" damage?

Logically? Maybe.

For game balance? No.

[Submortimer]

Anyone else think that pushing things into walls should cause an equivalent amount of falling damage?

Like, if I repelling blast someone standing against a wall, they should take 1d6 "falling" damage?

I generally use that as a house rule: if you're right next to a wall and get hit with repelling blast, you take 1d6 bludgeoning damage and maybe go through the wall.

[Easy_Lee]

I generally use that as a house rule: if you're right next to a wall and get hit with repelling blast, you take 1d6 bludgeoning damage and maybe go through the wall.

Well, if we're being super-technical, things like Repelling Blast that push a target don't specify what happens if the target encounters a barrier. Therefore, we can assume that by RAW, the barrier is ignored. So the target is instead pushed through the wall without leaving a hole, and must then move around the wall in order to rejoin the fight.

Sometimes RAW-only doesn't make much sense.

[Degwerks]

I've always just pictured repelling blast as a massive, staggering loss of balance and direction. Not so much as a superman hurling you 10 feet, but just like a Bruce Lee 1-3" punch. You take the blast damage but the damage just leaves you reeling and staggering in the opposite direction the force was applied. Almost like the invocation doesn't really allow it to do more damage, its just the target is in the "jet wash" of the force blast energy passing over him now. Kinda like being in a small slow going car and a fast semi-tractor trailer blowing by you on the highway, you get kinda yanked around a bit, but with EB/RB its on a slightlly bigger scale. This interpretation can explain away why the rules does not state damage taken from a wall being behind you. Just my view of it anyway.

Now knocking someone off a ledge, cliff, roof etc... now that is extra damage.

[SharkForce]

Very true. You can give your horse Longstrider to eke out an extra 20ft of movement, an extra 8d4 (~20) damage.

use a phantom steed. base movement 100. longstrider makes it 110. dash makes it 220. if someone else casts haste on it, that would be 420 feet, one of the few uses of haste where i'd be satisfactorily impressed by the effect. also, the damage in the first round will be the same as later rounds since it is the horse that is dashing, not you... and in later rounds, you can grapple a second person with your action :)

speak with plants i believe should allow you to tell the roots to get out of your way, while not offering any such protection to the person you're dragging along even if that person does need to be behind you (though how you'd accomplish that while dragging someone along using your bare hands while riding a horse is beyond me, seems like beside you would be the default). horseshoes of the zephyr would definitely allow you to drag someone through safely.

[Zene]

Sorcerer level 7, actually. They can create 4th level slots at level 6.

Here's an exploitative build: the Spike Growth Grappler. Take two levels of Rogue to gain expertise in Athletics as well as Cunning Action. Take three levels of Druid to gain Longstrider and Spike Growth. Max out your Strength. You should be able to get at least a +7 by level 4.

Have Longstrider on you as a buff, since it lasts 1 hour. Cast spike growth with your action at your opponent's feet, but exclude yourself from the area of effect (it creates an area of difficult terrain, which you do not want to cross).

Next turn, grapple someone with your action. If you succeed, use Cunning Action to Dash. You have 80ft of movement this round, but halved to 40ft since you're grappling someone.

Spike Growth deals 2d4 damage per 5ft moved, whether willingly or not. Run back and form between two squares until you've used all 40ft of movement to deal 16d4 (~40) magical piercing damage with no attack roll or saving throw.

On the next round, triple dash to dash 120ft, halved to 60ft. You get to deal 24d4 (~60) damage. Or grapple someone else and deal 16d4 damage to both of them.

Obvious buffs: Wood Elf, Mobile feat, Monk levels (Step of the Wind), Haste buff from ally.

Love this build. (Actually I love any grapple movement maximizing build.)

A few thoughts:
-Add in an Eagle Whistle and Boots of Speed on top of that Haste for some seriously ridiculous speed. There’s also a buld in the enWorld grappler guide 2.0 thread that uses druid wildshape and the quetzalcoatlus from volos to take it even further.
-As a DM, if I wanted to disallow the mount drag thing (and I’m not sure I would if it came up), it’d be pretty easy to do RAW. Anything that moves the grapplee out of the grappler’s reach breaks the grapple; and a mount moves its rider, not necessarily its rider’s grappled foe. So as soon as the mount moves, you could rule the grapple is broken. It’s rules lawyering for sure, but hey most of the 5e grappling game is super rules lawyery anyway.

[krugaan]

Love this build. (Actually I love any grapple movement maximizing build.)

A few thoughts:
-Add in an Eagle Whistle and Boots of Speed on top of that Haste for some seriously ridiculous speed. There’s also a buld in the enWorld grappler guide 2.0 thread that uses druid wildshape and the quetzalcoatlus from volos to take it even further.
-As a DM, if I wanted to disallow the mount drag thing (and I’m not sure I would if it came up), it’d be pretty easy to do RAW. Anything that moves the grapplee out of the grappler’s reach breaks the grapple; and a mount moves its rider, not necessarily its rider’s grappled foe. So as soon as the mount moves, you could rule the grapple is broken. It’s rules lawyering for sure, but hey most of the 5e grappling game is super rules lawyery anyway.

At level 18, use prismatic wall instead of spike growth.

[Arkhios]

Not sure if Goodberry + Life Domain counts, but there's that.

[Rynjin]

There was a thread about that once involving a flying grappler bard and multiple warlocks holding their actions.

I have also had fun doing this kind of thing as an Open Hand Monk on rare occasions. Punched a guy out of the water from below into the held attack actions of allies. Guy got skewered in midair.

[Zene]

At level 18, use prismatic wall instead of spike growth.

Yes!

I'm so psyched that with XGE's racial feats, I can now actually build a wizard with athletics expertise (without having to dip rogue). For exactly that kind of shenanigans.

(Shapechange while grappling is fun too)

[Finlam]

Invisibility specifices equipment being carried. As you are not equiment I would say you would not go invisible from this.
I am equipment. Please respect my life choices.

[krugaan]

Yes!

I'm so psyched that with XGE's racial feats, I can now actually build a wizard with athletics expertise (without having to dip rogue). For exactly that kind of shenanigans.

(Shapechange while grappling is fun too)

I find it amusing that prismatic wall doesn't require concentration, either.


I am equipment. Please respect my life choices.

Whoa ... whoa there.