Ghoul Boss

[Afrodactyl]

Hi all,

I'm drawing up a ghoul/undead themed campaign, and I'm working on the "boss" for the first arc of the story. Would anyone be willing to help stat up my monster?

I'm not sure about the number of attacks it's making (two seems too few, and three seems like too much), and I can't wrap my head around the CR (the DMG is saying it's around the CR 5/6 mark, is that right?).

The idea behind the boss is that you would fight it in a cave system after driving back the undead horde thats ravaging the town and taking the fight to them; it then smashes it's way through a cave wall leading a pack of ghouls and ghoul "blight shamans" (ghouls with some spells). The bite attack is fluffed like the ghoul unhinging it's jaw and just enveloping the target.

Thoughts?

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/HyrAFbQbM

[JNAProductions]

DCR: 6 base, for HP and Regen, effective AC is 18 (save bonuses), for +1. DCR is 7.

OCR: 45 DPR, for base 7, at +6 to-hit, so just 7.

That being said! Paralyzed and Restrained are VICIOUS conditions. The save is low, but the conditions are quite brutal-disadvantage on everything combat relevant for Restrained, and AUTO-CRITS on Paralyzed. Definitely at least CR 7, maybe a bit higher.

[Afrodactyl]

Definitely at least CR 7, maybe a bit higher.

Thank you!

Does anything else need changing in your opinion? Should I tone down the bite to just grappled?

I ideally want to keep the paralysis in because its an innate ghoul thing.

[Requilac]

So lets see what CR it would be...

Defensive CR: 10.25
HP: 119, but effective HP would equal 149 due to regeneration (CR 6)
AC: 16, but effective DC would equal 18 due to having three saving throws (CR 13-16, lets call it 14.5 for simplicity)

Offensive CR: 6.5
Attack bonus: +6 (CR 5-7, lets call it 6 for simplicity)
Save DC: 12 and 15, lets call it 13.5 for simplicity (CR 3-4, lets call it 3.5 for simplicity)
DPR: up to 45 (CR 7)

Total CR: 8.375, lets call it CR 8 for simplicity. I did not get the same as JNA though, so we must have been doing it slightly differently. I checked over my work though and I am almost certain I am correct, so she might have made an error or did not use as much averages and decimals as I did.



I have massive experience home brewing monsters though, and what I always think helps when creating them is that you should base its statistics off of its CR then create the monster. Creating the monster then calculating the CR becomes tedious over time, so I would reccomned determining what all the stats need to be for it be of a certain CR then create the monster statblock. Typically I start out out by recording the CR and the average stats for each, then adjusting them accordingly to make it the monster more defensive or offense, and finally adding in all the other side features and stats. It has helped me immensely in the past.

I do not see anything wrong with giving it a paralyzing attack, but I would put some kind of limitation on it. How I would personally handle it is I would give them three attacks; two normal ones and a paralyzing attack that does 75% normal damage. I would not include the bite attack though, paralyzing is already a deadly condition and supplementing it with a restrain attack would be much too overboard.

Side question; what language is darakhul?

[JNAProductions]

If AC is 2 points higher, increase DCR by 1. That's why you got the different numbers.

[Requilac]

If AC is 2 points higher, increase DCR by 1. That's why you got the different numbers.

What are you talking about? Don't those rules only apply if he had an expected CR to begin with? The OP did not seem to have much more than a general idea of what its CR would be, so i was just comparing it to what CR monsters have those stats. CR 13-16 monsters have an AC of 18, so its CR for AC would be 13-16 (or 14.5). Those "AC is 2 points higher, increase DCR by 1" rules only apply if we know what the expected CR was to begin with. He gave us "a probably 5 or 6 mark", i would hardly consider that a decent estimate. I guess that is where our discrepancy was then, we where using entirely different systems. I would have used what you did had he given us an expected CR, but seeing as how he didn't i had to do my best with the knowledge i knew.

What numbers were you using for the expected CR; 5, 6 or something else?

[JNAProductions]

What are you talking about? Don't those rules only apply if he had an expected CR to begin with? The OP did not seem to have much more than a general idea of what its CR would be, so i was just comparing it to what CR monsters have those stats. CR 13-16 monsters have an AC of 18, so its CR for AC would be 13-16 (or 14.5). Those "AC is 2 points higher, increase DCR by 1" rules only apply if we know what the expected CR was to begin with. He gave us "a probably 5 or 6 mark", i would hardly consider that a decent estimate. I guess that is where our discrepancy was then, we where using entirely different systems. I would have used what you did had he given us an expected CR, but seeing as how he didn't i had to do my best with the knowledge i knew.

What numbers were you using for the expected CR; 5, 6 or something else?

Base DCR is determined by HP, and that's what you adjust off of.

[Requilac]

Base DCR is determined by HP, and that's what you adjust off of.

I am fairly certain that AC plays a roll in base defensive CR, i am AFB right now, but i could swear that it does. I know for a fact that you can adjust armor class to alter CR at the very least. Perhaps i am misinterpreting what you are saying though, because you are sounding utterly confounding to me right now.

[JNAProductions]

P. 274, DMG. Step 4. Final Challenge Rating.

You start off with HP, then adjust the DCR up or down by 1 for every 2 points AC is above or below the recommended amount.

Otherwise, the way you're doing it, a monster with 1 HP and AC 19 would be DCR 8.5, and that's obviously quite incorrect.

[Requilac]

P. 274, DMG. Step 4. Final Challenge Rating.

You start off with HP, then adjust the DCR up or down by 1 for every 2 points AC is above or below the recommended amount.

Otherwise, the way you're doing it, a monster with 1 HP and AC 19 would be DCR 8.5, and that's obviously quite incorrect.

Yes, i suppose you are right JNA. Sorry about that Afrodactyle, I have become so used to my method that does not involve expected CRs that i sometimes get rules mixed up. It seems like experience with making monsters does not necessarily mean I am good at guessing their CRs. Strange I guess.

[JNAProductions]

Yes, i suppose you are right JNA. Sorry about that Afrodactyle, I have become so used to my method that does not involve expected CRs that i sometimes get rules mixed up. It seems like experience with making monsters does not necessarily mean I am good at guessing their CRs. Strange I guess.

No biggie. Better to acknowledge when you goof and improve, than insist you're right.

Glad I could be of assistance.

[Afrodactyl]

Thank you for all the input!

With regards to the CR, I just can't wrap my head around it and always seem to end up way off.

I'll probably get rid of the restraint and grapple from the bite, and leave the CR at around the 8 mark or so. I can always have another ghoul or two spawn mid fight if it feels like the boss fight is going to wipe really fast.

Thank you!

:Edit:
Darakhul is a ghoul language, from kobold press' tome of beasts that I have incorporated into my game world

[endlessxaura]

Remember that the environment plays a role in the encounter as well. If the players don't know the cave system and the ghouls do, that puts the ghouls at a serious advantage. I remember running an encounter against a shadow demon in the middle of the night in the woods. The party was level 6 at the time and the shadow demon was only a CR 4, but because it knew the forest really well and had Incorporeal Movement and Shadow Stealth, it nearly downed one of the players. The ghoul boss has Howl of the Packmaster. If the ghouls are well-positioned, that could turn out to be really deadly! But, ghouls that use the environment to their advantage and crawl around through tunnels to flank the party would make the encounter super interesting, too.

If you're worried about him dropping too fast, the ghoul boss does have an Intelligence of 12. That makes him smart enough to know that engaging headfirst into a group of adventurers might get him killed. If I were running him, I would make him send in his ghouls first and abuse the **** out of Howl of the Packmaster to split their ranks. Then, use the cave system to get around the players to engage the weakest links.

EDIT: Oh, and because he can move while he has someone restrained with his bite, he could even drag players into the recesses of the cave to isolate them!