Thoughts on Cavalier?

[Josato]

Ive always had a liking to the cavalier class and was wondering what everyone elses thoughts were.

[saeval]

I'm currently playing one and having a blast. Gonna have a triceratops soon that is missing a horn... it's finn is damaged in just such a way to make couching a lance ideal. His name will be sir lancitops!

[Josato]

Awesome. When pathfinder was around i played one. Have you gone to a dungeon yet?

[Malifice]

Awesome. When pathfinder was around i played one. Have you gone to a dungeon yet?

Totally different classes this time around.

5E one is a sticky controller, not the striker Pathfinders is.

It's also not dependent on a horse.

[GlenSmash!]

Totally different classes this time around.

5E one is a sticky controller, not the striker Pathfinders is.

It's also not dependent on a horse.

Indeed. In theme, and somewhat in mechanics 5e Cavalier reminds me of the 4e Knight.

[Specter]

Haven't played one, but this is what jumps to the eyes:

- You want them in a party where the other members are more fragile than yourself. In a party full of Paladins and Barbarians, there are less opportunities for them to shine.
- Level 18 ability is underwhelming. Having the chance for more than one opportunity attack will seldom come into play. Other fighters (except Battlemaster) have much better stuff going on for them at that level.

[Josato]

Haven't played one, but this is what jumps to the eyes:

- You want them in a party where the other members are more fragile than yourself. In a party full of Paladins and Barbarians, there are less opportunities for them to shine.
- Level 18 ability is underwhelming. Having the chance for more than one opportunity attack will seldom come into play. Other fighters (except Battlemaster) have much better stuff going on for them at that level.

Wow. Didnt expect you to post but thank you for the highlights. Found your social god thread online and ended up here! Was thinking to multiclass the cavalier with bard college of valor. Very helpful infomation! Thanks again!

[HolyDraconus]

It's sentinel the class. I personally dislike it cause of that, and will stick to ak or BM. But some will love it.

[Unoriginal]

Having the chance for more than one opportunity attack will seldom come into play

What do you mean? Several NPCs leaving the space you control must happen relatively frequently in a combat with lots of people, no?

[Khrysaes]

What do you mean? Several NPCs leaving the space you control must happen relatively frequently in a combat with lots of people, no?

It isn't even just people leaving your control, but thanks to the level 10 feature, moving within it.

With polearm mastery you can OA when they enter, move through, or leave your space. With a reach weapon it just increases the space you cover.

[Josato]

It isn't even just people leaving your control, but thanks to the level 10 feature, moving within it.

With polearm mastery you can OA when they enter, move through, or leave your space. With a reach weapon it just increases the space you cover.

My goodness. Sounds like a lu bei combat scene.

[Khrysaes]

My goodness. Sounds like a lu bei combat scene.

Without level 18. The UA tunnel fighter feat, or the mark optional rule in the dmg page 271, you are still limited to 1 OA per round. Tunnel fighter is the most broken, as it is the only one that doesn't specify once per turn.

One of my classmates is Dming and allowing ua. I'm taking tunnel fighter. Also thinking of combining with 7 paladin of vengeance(move half speed on oa) and 1 mystic(giant form increases reach and grants an enlarge spell).

[Specter]

What do you mean? Several NPCs leaving the space you control must happen relatively frequently in a combat with lots of people, no?

Ok, maybe I expressed myself poorly. It's good. But is it as good as healing until you are at half HP, casting a spell and attacking or taking an extra turn when you drop to 0hp? No. Fighter's fnal ability is supposed to be wow material, not something that relies on the battle's layout and number of enemies.

[thepsyker]

Maybe not entirely on topic for the direction the thread has gone, but I have to say that my main thought is frustration. If you just dropped the Born in the Saddle ability and the tacked on Cavalier fluff, you would have the perfect class for representing a line infantry type character like a Roman Legionaire, Greek Hopolite, or Swiss Halbreder.

I mean Unwavering Mark and Warding Maneuver are perfect for representing the teamwork of formation fighting. The thematic link between line infantry and Hold the Line is, to me at least, self explanatory and Vigilant Defender is basically an extension of that ability. Even Freocious Charger can work as well depicting an infantry charge as a cavalry charge.

To compound the matter if you were to move the Born in the Saddle ability over to the Samurai class and give it a slightly more generic name you would have pretty much exactly what I, personally, would want in a Cavalier class. Sure it is possible to ignore Born in the Saddle when making a character, but the whole thing just misses the mark, in my view, so narrowly that it is extreamly frustrating.

[Pex]

I appreciate you don't have to be on a mount to use your class features. That has always been a problem in previous edition incarnations of the Cavalier. When campaign circumstances require you not to be on your mount the Cavalier couldn't do anything but "I attack."

[Zene]

I personally love the L18 feature. It is definitely slightly weaker than the others by itself, but it perfectly complements the cavalier’s earlier abilities:

-At level 3, the cavalier gets to make it so enemies have disadvantage on attacking other party members while they (the enemies) are next to you. Pretty cool, and scales as your number of attacks increase, but if enemies get away from you it no longer affects them. So you want them to stick close.

-At level 10, you can make an opportunity attack if they move around you, instead of away from you. And your opp attacks now reduce speed to 0, so you are locking them in place. Great for tank positioning and close fights, and makes your L3 ability way more useful. But you can still only lockdown 1 per turn.

-At level 18, that 1 per turn limit is removed. You can lockdown as many as you can reach. It’s a fantastic tanking feature, specifically because it massively empowers your L3 and L10 abilities.

(though probably less so if you play theater of the mind —for that matter this class would probably suck to play in theater of the mind, since it’s all about very specific positioning.)

[Sno]

Cavalier seems like a great and cool class, on par with battle master IMO.

With that said, I am conflicted about what to go for.

Sword and board: Seem like a great choice. He got lots of protection abilities, so survivability seems great (shield), feats like armor master and goes with that.

Two-Handed (Great Sword/maul/greataxe). Nah... I don't feel he need that little extra damage. Based on his class features, he will probably be the main target. A dead frontline = no frontline.

Polearm: Here we are talking. Polearm-mastery synergies great with the level 10/17 feature. Considering this.

Staff and Shield: My favorite. A little bit more defense with some of the bonuses of a normal polearm. As the Warding bond is limited to 5 feet, this is my favorite. Seems a bit akward and choice of weapon thou (staff), not to mention limited.

[Zene]

Cavalier seems like a great and cool class, on par with battle master IMO.

With that said, I am conflicted about what to go for.

Sword and board: Seem like a great choice. He got lots of protection abilities, so survivability seems great (shield), feats like armor master and goes with that.

Two-Handed (Great Sword/maul/greataxe). Nah... I don't feel he need that little extra damage. Based on his class features, he will probably be the main target. A dead frontline = no frontline.

Polearm: Here we are talking. Polearm-mastery synergies great with the level 10/17 feature. Considering this.

Staff and Shield: My favorite. A little bit more defense with some of the bonuses of a normal polearm. As the Warding bond is limited to 5 feet, this is my favorite. Seems a bit akward and choice of weapon thou (staff), not to mention limited.

That’s my biggest complaint about the subclass —no matter which weapon choice you go with, it conflicts with some aspect of the class.

It’s a tank, so it’ll get hit a lot, so you want a shield.
But
Its L10 and L18 abilities greatly benefit from increased reach, so you want a reach weapon.
But
The L10 and L18 also want to maximize chances for opportunity attacks, so polearm master (and the weapons that work with it) is something you want as well
But
Several of its abilities benefit greatly from being mounted, so a lance and shield combo would be optimal.
But
As a lockdown tank, you can really only lockdown one opponent next to you until L18, so the ability to free up a hand or two for a grapple will double or triple your lockdown capacity...and unfortunately shields take a full action to doff.

So no matter what weapon you choose, you are going to be hobbling yourself in some respect.

The best I can come up with is:
(Deep breath)
Take Polearm Master,
-use a shield and staff when higher AC is necessary and PAM attacks matter,
-use a polearm when reach is more important than higher AC and PAM attacks matter;
-use a lance and shield when higher AC is necessary, PAM attacks are less important than reach, and you’re mounted;
-use a whip and shield when higher AC is necessary, PAM attacks are less important than reach, and you’re not mounted.
Whew.

[thepsyker]

Several of its abilities benefit greatly from being mounted, so a lance and shield combo would be optimal.


What of its abilities benefit greatly from being mounted? Except for Born to the Saddle I'm not seeing it. Warding Defense and Ferocious Charge both work with being mounted, but not any better than they do on foot that I can see.

[Josato]

What of its abilities benefit greatly from being mounted? Except for Born to the Saddle I'm not seeing it. Warding Defense and Ferocious Charge both work with being mounted, but not any better than they do on foot that I can see.

Thats one thing ive noticed about the cavalier abilities. They do much on a mount. I recal the crit would be x3 for the pathfinder cavalier or i could be wrong.

[Unoriginal]

I hope they really will do a D&D cartoon for 5e. This class would be fun to watch.

[Malifice]

Maybe not entirely on topic for the direction the thread has gone, but I have to say that my main thought is frustration. If you just dropped the Born in the Saddle ability and the tacked on Cavalier fluff, you would have the perfect class for representing a line infantry type character like a Roman Legionaire, Greek Hopolite, or Swiss Halbreder.

I mean Unwavering Mark and Warding Maneuver are perfect for representing the teamwork of formation fighting. The thematic link between line infantry and Hold the Line is, to me at least, self explanatory and Vigilant Defender is basically an extension of that ability. Even Freocious Charger can work as well depicting an infantry charge as a cavalry charge.

To compound the matter if you were to move the Born in the Saddle ability over to the Samurai class and give it a slightly more generic name you would have pretty much exactly what I, personally, would want in a Cavalier class. Sure it is possible to ignore Born in the Saddle when making a character, but the whole thing just misses the mark, in my view, so narrowly that it is extreamly frustrating.

As a ribbon ability its easy to ignore, or simply replace with something else ribbony.

Pack Mule: At 3rd level your years of footslogging come to the fore. You treat your size category as one level higher for the purposes of encumbrance. In addition, you have advantage on saving throws to resist gaining a level of exhaustion when participating in a forced march.

[Zene]

What of its abilities benefit greatly from being mounted? Except for Born to the Saddle I'm not seeing it. Warding Defense and Ferocious Charge both work with being mounted, but not any better than they do on foot that I can see.

The benefits to a Cavalier of being mounted are a bit subtle, and a lot of them are small, but IMO they add up to make it worth it.

For one thing, the L3 feature (Born to the Saddle), is actually pretty nice for a tank, who cares a whole lot about reaching enemies and positioning. Compare a normal character (without this feature) to the Cavalier. Let's say they both have a base movement of 30. If they're both mounted on (let's say) warhorses, the warhorse can take its movement, or can even dash. The regular character then can dismount to move 15' further; the Cavalier can dismount and move 25' further. It may be rare that you need that extra 10', but 10' of extra movement sure is a nice ribbon.

Consider also that mounts can take the Disengage action, meaning a cavalier on a mount can weave their way through the enemies to the best target or optimal position in the middle of the enemy lines. Any other tank, as soon as the enemy drops their horse (which inevitably happens IME, unless you have some feature to redirect damage), will be prone unless they use their reaction. Cavaliers can save their reaction for something else due to the L3 ability (land on their feet).

Next, the L15 feature (Ferocious Charger). It can work mounted or unmounted, sure. But if you're next to your intended target, you'd need to back away to use it. If you're mounted, the mount can take the disengage action, allowing you to back up, not take opp attacks, charge, and still have your action to attack. Saves you an opportunity attack, while allowing you to charge.

Finally, the L10 and L18 abilities. They're both more effective the more area you can hit (I'll use the term "threaten"--though I know it's not a 5e term--for simplicity's sake). A character without reach, on foot, threatens 9 squares on a 5' grid (including the one he's standing on, again for simplicity's sake). If he's mounted on a Large creature (say, a warhorse), he now threatens 16 squares. If he's got reach, the change is even more dramatic. A polearm wielder on foot threatens 25 squares. A polearm wielder on a warhorse? 36 squares. (This is also true for the L7 ability, except for that one reach doesn’t matter, only adjacency).

A L18 Cavalier, mounted and wielding a polearm (so threatening 36 squares), with the Polearm Master feat? Could theoretically hold a horde back. A lot of creatures wouldn't have the movement to get around him, and every one that enters his reach is triggering an opportunity attack that drops their speed to 0 if it hits.

I admit, none of the mount benefits are game-changing. But I feel they add up to make it worth it for a cavalier to be mounted whenever he can.

[thepsyker]

As a ribbon ability its easy to ignore, or simply replace with something else ribbony.



Oh no, I totally get that it is a rather small detail that should be easy to ignore. It is just that it is that one out of place detail that stops the two classes from being exactly what I would want in a line infantry or cavalier class respectively that it nags at me if you know what I mean.


SNIP
That said this is a lot of synergy with mounted combat that I hadn't seen at first go over.

[Dr Forbin]

I appreciate you don't have to be on a mount to use your class features. That has always been a problem in previous edition incarnations of the Cavalier. When campaign circumstances require you not to be on your mount the Cavalier couldn't do anything but "I attack."
Not to play devil's advocate but that's akin to saying magic users should be able to cast spells in antimagic zones because they are terrible in that situation.

[Pex]

Not to play devil's advocate but that's akin to saying magic users should be able to cast spells in antimagic zones because they are terrible in that situation.

No. An anti-magic zone is a one time thing in a high level adventure, fighting a beholder, and one time low level adventure doing a prison breakout.

You don't use your mount when: traveling in a swamp, traveling in the mountains, traveling in a thick forest, traveling in the snow, doing a dungeon crawl, planar hopping, in the Black Market, etc. There are numerous places you cannot take your Mount with you.

[nickl_2000]

Thread Necro Ahoy! :smallbiggrin:

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: Closed for thread equimancy.