How does one build a night-gaunt PC race? (a blind but flying humanoid)

[Requilac]

I have been working on a project now to create a lovecraftain bestiary and I decided that it might be interesting to add a small amount of PC races to it. Very few cthulhu mythos monsters are suitable to be a PC race, but so far i thought that the ghoul, deep one and night-gaunt would be possible to make. Deep-one and ghoul are easy, but the night-gaunt is an entirely different problem altogether. The biggest road block; determining a mechanism for sensing things that could work while blinded which is viable for a flying character.

It is rather obvious that the night-gaunt should gain a flying speed, some-thing to assist with stealth, a feature revolving around their lack of a face, and another trait based around how they can sense their surroundings without being able to see. The easiest way to incorporate their blindness in without crippling the race is to give them blindsense, but the only issue is that for a flying creature to be of great use they need to be able to see far away, so the only way to make that viable would be giving them a ridiculously long blindsight radius which is possibly up to 600 feet. It goes without saying that a PC should not have blindsight out to such a massive range, so i started to wonder how you would be able to make a replacement for it. I have considered possibly making something like an echolocation feature, but the current monster feature for that just makes it so that the blindsight is cancelled if the creature is deafened, so i do not know where to begin to create such an ability. To add on, the night gaunt has no mouth so relying on echolocation is kind of strange. It is has been rather hard to come up with something siutable, so i have an important question to pose to you all...

In D&D 5e mechanics, how would a flying PC race that is blind be able to sense a long distance away?



That is not the only issue though, i have also been confused over how to represent the night-gaunt's facelessness. Clearly this means that they could not speak a language, but how would you represent this in D&D terms? Would they simply be unable to speak any languages and instead learn a kind of sign language that would take take longer to convey messages? They would probably be immune to being blinded, seeing as they have no eyes, but depending on the way that their senses work it could still be perfectly possible that they could be blinded. The fact that they still need to provide verbal components for spells too makes this one hard to come up with.

And here is another important question, is it even balanced for a PC to use some sort of blindsight and be unable to speak a language, or would these traits make the race so deviated from the rest of the other adventurers that no one would ever want to play as or with one?

You can find the rough draft form of the race in this link (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/rJHtMwFQbz).

Any suggestions on how to handle any of these issues are appreciated, even if all you are saying is that you would never want to see such a race in play. Thank you in advance for anyone who helps me find a solution to this problem!

[Nifft]

Blindness, but can sense nearby stuff => Blindsense / Blindsight (like an Ooze or Grimlock or Yrthak or Grell or Dragon)

Blindness, but can sense prey via emotions and/or thoughts => Telepathy + Mindsight

No face but can talk => Telepathy or "it's magic"

[Requilac]

Blindness, but can sense nearby stuff => Blindsense / Blindsight (like an Ooze or Grimlock or Yrthak or Grell or Dragon)

Blindness, but can sense prey via emotions and/or thoughts => Telepathy + Mindsight

No face but can talk => Telepathy or "it's magic"

The issue is that for a flying creature to be viable at all it has to see more than just nearby stuff. All the creatures you mentioned can at maximum see out 60 feet. Do you have any idea how crippling it would be for a PC to only be able to see out to 60 feet? No one would ever want to play the night-gaunt with blindisight unless i highly extended the sensing range, probably up to about 600 feet or so, and i am concerned about what would happen if i did so.

And telepathy is an interesting path to go down I suppose, but it is not anything close to how they communicated in the original lovecraft books. I guess i could always take "artistic liberties", but giving them telepathy is a bit of stretch. I would much rather avoid this if i can.

Edit: also, I need to find a way so that they can provide the verbal components to spells.

[Nifft]

The issue is that for a flying creature to be viable at all it has to see more than just nearby stuff. All the creatures you mentioned can at maximum see out 60 feet. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/yrthak.htm

Huge, Blind, blindsight 120 ft., fly 60 ft.

EDIT: Wrong edition, but shows what is considered viable by some monster designers.


Do you have any idea how crippling it would be for a PC to only be able to see out to 60 feet? No one would ever want to play the night-gaunt with blindisight unless i highly extended the sensing range, probably up to about 600 feet or so, and i am concerned about what would happen if i did so. There's a guy in the 3.5e forum asking for advice on building a blind swordsman who will have Blindsight 30 ft.

He wants to play that character.

You are wrong about what players will accept.

But hey, if nobody wants to play that race, then nobody will choose to play it. It's harmless to offer as an option.

[Requilac]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/yrthak.htm

Huge, Blind, blindsight 120 ft., fly 60 ft.

That is not even a 5e monster though, nifft.




There's a guy in the 3.5e forum asking for advice on building a blind swordsman who will have Blindsight 30 ft.

He wants to play that character.

You are wrong about what players will accept.

But hey, if nobody wants to play that race, then nobody will choose to play it. It's harmless to offer as an option.

It is not that people do not want to play blind characters, it is that they do not want to play a blind flying character. The main purpose of flying is being able to scout and being a lot more mobile, and having 60 feet of vision compromises both of those factors. It is nearly impossible to be a scout with terrible vision and it is even more difficult to be mobile if you cannot navigate for the life of you. You cannot really even use your flying to overcome most obstacles; flying to the top of a cliff you cannot see is tedious, flying across a river which you cannot see the other side of without someone with decent vision is incredibly risky, and forget about flying up to get the thing caught in a tree above you; no way your finding it unless you spend like 10 turns searching. At that point flying becomes a bad decision, which kind of defeats a major purpose of the race. The only way you could function well is if you constantly had someone aid you and just hope that they give you good directions. And the second you find yourself alone, well, then you are not exactly going to have much time left for you. For a swordsman it is perfectly viable to have weak blindsight, for a flying character it is utterly devastating.

[Nifft]

EDIT: Wrong edition, but shows what is considered viable by some monster designers. ^^^^^ edit was 15 minutes before vvvvvv

That is not even a 5e monster though, nifft.
You are correct.


It is not that people do not want to play blind characters, it is that they do not want to play a blind flying character. The main purpose of flying is being able to scout and being a lot more mobile, and having 60 feet of vision compromises both of those factors. Gosh, a reason to stay with the party. How terrible. It would be much better if the flying guy could find & solo encounters without the other deadweight characters.


It is nearly impossible to be a scout with terrible vision and it is even more difficult to be mobile if you cannot navigate for the life of you. You cannot really even use your flying to overcome most obstacles; flying to the top of a cliff you cannot see is tedious, flying across a river which you cannot see the other side of without someone with decent vision is incredibly risky, and forget about flying up to get the thing caught in a tree above you; no way your finding it unless you spend like 10 turns searching. Gosh, a reason to stay with the party. How terrible. It would be much better if the flying guy could find & solo encounters without the other deadweight characters.

(But many trees aren't more than 60 ft. tall so that's a bit of a canard.)


At that point flying becomes a bad decision, which kind of defeats a major purpose of the race. The only way you could function well is if you constantly had someone aid you and just hope that they give you good directions. And the second you find yourself alone, well, then you are not exactly going to have much time left for you. Gosh, a reason to stay with the party. How terrible. It would be much better if the flying guy could find & solo encounters without the other deadweight characters.


Seriously, you keep bringing up "problems" which actually look like perfectly valid inter-party balance mechanics. This is a good reason to NOT send one guy out alone, but rather all travel together. Very different sense modalities complement each other -- one guy can "see" hidden ambush attempts within 60 ft., the other guy can see further than 60 ft. but doesn't auto-detect ambush monsters. They work better together. That doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.


But it doesn't really matter what I think -- you have been given what help I could give, now good luck with your homebrew.

[Requilac]

I am sorry Nifft if I seemed too aggressive, I really did value and consider your suggestions, I just wanted to state my reasons. You have made me think about this on a deeper level and helped me out though so I am sorry if I did something to offend you. I may add what you are proposing in, unless someone else thinks that they can come up with something better. Perhaps you were on to something. Part of me really does not like the idea of having them be so disabled, but I suppose not everyone has the same thoughts as me. I will need to think on it, I am doubtful, but you have regardless brought up some good points.

[Potato_Priest]

I'd gladly give up vision for a sweet 30 feet of blindsight.

Ignoring invisibility and illusions, being able to see ***** sneaky enemies in magical darkness, fog clouds, any other thing that obscures vision... it's a great ability, and with a sighted party you don't have to worry too much about not knowing what is going on at greater ranges.

[Requilac]

I'd gladly give up vision for a sweet 30 feet of blindsight.

Ignoring invisibility and illusions, being able to see ***** sneaky enemies in magical darkness, fog clouds, any other thing that obscures vision... it's a great ability, and with a sighted party you don't have to worry too much about not knowing what is going on at greater ranges.

Really? am I the only one who thinks it is debilitating for a flying creature to have low ranged vision?

I am now suddenly gaining the feeling that perhaps I might be overthinking this...

[Potato_Priest]

Really? am I the only one who thinks it is debilitating for a flying creature to have low ranged vision?

I am now suddenly gaining the feeling that perhaps I might be overthinking this...

It's certainly anti-synergetic with flight, but it's great on its own.

Most DMs won't allow flying races because they're scared that flight is too good for a racial ability, but this combines two awesome abilities in a way that they kinda neutralize each other a lot of the time (especially in combat) while remaining individually valuable in certain scenarios. I actually think that's really cool.

[Requilac]

It's certainly anti-synergetic with flight, but it's great on its own.

Most DMs won't allow flying races because they're scared that flight is too good for a racial ability, but this combines two awesome abilities in a way that they kinda neutralize each other a lot of the time (especially in combat) while remaining individually valuable in certain scenarios. I actually think that's really cool.

I am going to see what other people have to say on the matter, but I am beginning to like this idea more and more. It definitely seems interesting enough to me now that people point it out I may have inadvertently been on to something rather creative. Hooray for untintended consequences!

[MoleMage]

You could add some flavor ability specifying that in addition to their normal blindsight, they automatically know the layout of terrain or distance to the ground in a much wider radius. Or give them Blindsight 30ft and Blindsense (location of objects and creatures, no details) with a larger radius.

In DnD terms (especially in 5th ed), 600 feet is a lot more than it would be in real world terms. That's the maximum possible range of the longest range mundane weapon, for example. Most spells have ranges of 200 feet or less.

As an entirely alternate direction, you could instead of giving them blindness and a special sense, you could give them a "partial blindness", by specifying in what ways their vision doesn't work, but assume that their 'vision' works as normal except where noted.

[Requilac]

You could add some flavor ability specifying that in addition to their normal blindsight, they automatically know the layout of terrain or distance to the ground in a much wider radius. Or give them Blindsight 30ft and Blindsense (location of objects and creatures, no details) with a larger radius.

In DnD terms (especially in 5th ed), 600 feet is a lot more than it would be in real world terms. That's the maximum possible range of the longest range mundane weapon, for example. Most spells have ranges of 200 feet or less.

As an entirely alternate direction, you could instead of giving them blindness and a special sense, you could give them a "partial blindness", by specifying in what ways their vision doesn't work, but assume that their 'vision' works as normal except where noted.

The first option about the “blindsense” idea which can perceive basic terrain details is definitely an interesting thing to look into. I specifically suggested the idea of 600 feet precisely because that is how far a longbow can shoot, but that is definitely way too much I am aware. The second idea is not very applicable because the monster I am working with does not have useless eyes or something that would grant partial blindness, it simply has no eyes or face at all. Here is an artistic representation of them I found online.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-hbdg6YfnYSo/TzH4keS0qxI/AAAAAAAAAFQ/12av5HHfVvM/s1600/nightgaunt%2B900p.jpg

I do not quite know how this blindsense would work, but I suppose I could base it off of detect magic or locate object. I will definitely consider it and see if I can implement it in.

[MoleMage]

The first option about the “blindsense” idea which can perceive basic terrain details is definitely an interesting thing to look into. I specifically suggested the idea of 600 feet precisely because that is how far a longbow can shoot, but that is definitely way too much I am aware. The second idea is not very applicable because the monster I am working with does not have useless eyes or something that would grant partial blindness, it simply has no eyes or face at all. Here is an artistic representation of them I found online.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-hbdg6YfnYSo/TzH4keS0qxI/AAAAAAAAAFQ/12av5HHfVvM/s1600/nightgaunt%2B900p.jpg

I do not quite know how this blindsense would work, but I suppose I could base it off of detect magic or locate object. I will definitely consider it and see if I can implement it in.

That's why I put vision in scare quotes in my original post. There's nothing about DnD mechanically that ties being able to see to having eyes, so you could just specify that they have specific visual deficiencies as a flavor due to not having eyes.

[Requilac]

That's why I put vision in scare quotes in my original post. There's nothing about DnD mechanically that ties being able to see to having eyes, so you could just specify that they have specific visual deficiencies as a flavor due to not having eyes.

What do you mean by that? Vision is still tied to having eyes in D&D, as creatures that don’t have eyes typically gain blindsight, at least in my experience. Do you have any specific examples in mind. And I honestly doubt that the whole lack of eyes things can be successfully represented by flavor texts. There is no way that having no face is not going to have no mechanical effect on the game, at least in my opinion.

I did add in your blindsense out to a longer radius than blindsight though to the document, so thank you for helping me out with that.

[Aniikinis]

I have a very simple question: Why does it need Blindsense/Blindsight at all? Just because it lacks sensory organs doesn't mean that it cannot see normally, after all this is a beast native to madness and the void beyond the stars.

Why not give it darkvision 60 ft., an immunity to gaze attacks and blindness, and blindsense/sight for a very limited area (like 15 feet per character level or something)?

[Requilac]

I have a very simple question: Why does it need Blindsense/Blindsight at all? Just because it lacks sensory organs doesn't mean that it cannot see normally, after all this is a beast native to madness and the void beyond the stars.

Why not give it darkvision 60 ft., an immunity to gaze attacks and blindness, and blindsense/sight for a very limited area (like 15 feet per character level or something)?

Umm, I am pretty sure the definition of lacking sensory organs is that you cannot see normally. One can sense things without eyes for sure, but not the same way. We are trying to come up with a mechanical representation of that, and to me it seems rather strange if there would not be one. I had better add in that clause about gaze attacks though, I forgot entirely about it.

[Aniikinis]

Umm, I am pretty sure the definition of lacking sensory organs is that you cannot see normally.

Just gonna point out, I read that as super rude in my head. Not sure if that's what you were going for, but yeah. :smallannoyed:


One can sense things without eyes for sure, but not the same way. We are trying to come up with a mechanical representation of that, and to me it seems rather strange if there would not be one. I had better add in that clause about gaze attacks though, I forgot entirely about it.

What I'm saying, is that it doesn't need to conform to normal physics, commonalities, or anything like those. This is a creature from the Far Realms, a place where reality doesn't work the way it does normally. Just because it doesn't have sensory organs does not necessarily mean that it cannot see normally. From what I'm gathering, you're thinking in a way that assumes that these creatures work as though human beings and our native creatures do, even though these are creatures that do not work on the same sense of reality that we do.

Also: Pathfinder's version of the Nightgaunt (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/nightgaunt/).

[Requilac]

Just gonna point out, I read that as super rude in my head. Not sure if that's what you were going for, but yeah. :smallannoyed:

Oh, I am very sorry for that, I did not mean to sound rude at all. I can see where you might think that though. I apologize for saying that, I really do value your input on this and did not mean to be aggressive. I am not mad or disdainful towards you at all, i just sometimes do not easily catch on to what others may find insulting. Please do not take that personally, I really did not mean anything like that. I am sorry for insulting you like that, I did not mean to hurt your feelings.



What I'm saying, is that it doesn't need to conform to normal physics, commonalities, or anything like those. This is a creature from the Far Realms, a place where reality doesn't work the way it does normally. Just because it doesn't have sensory organs does not necessarily mean that it cannot see normally. From what I'm gathering, you're thinking in a way that assumes that these creatures work as though human beings and our native creatures do, even though these are creatures that do not work on the same sense of reality that we do.

Also: Pathfinder's version of the Nightgaunt (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/nightgaunt/).

Hmm, I suppose that is true, they do not really need to run on earthly biology principles. To me it seems kind of odd if my explanation for the phenomenon though is “it’s magic” or “it’s weird”, but in hind sight that is exactly how lovecraftian logic works. It is definitely possibly to just give them normal vision. People seem to be liking the whole blindsight and blindsense concept though, so for now I shall go with that. As potato priest already stated, it is a unique way for two normally overpowered features (flight and blindsight) to effectively “cancel each-other out” (that is a poor phrase to use but I can’t find a better word). That approach is definitely an interesting one to look into though. Thank you for offering that suggestion.

You have been a rather great help to me too aniikinis, even if I don’t add in your proposed features you have got me to explore several alternative solutions. I am grateful for your assistance in the creation of this confusing little project. I never meant to hurt you in any manner, I am sorry if it sounded like that at all.

[Aniikinis]

Oh, I am very sorry for that, I did not mean to sound rude at all. I can see where you might think that though. I apologize for saying that, I really do value your input on this and did not mean to be aggressive. I am not mad or disdainful towards you at all, i just sometimes do not easily catch on to what others may find insulting. Please do not take that personally, I really did not mean anything like that. I am sorry for insulting you like that, I did not mean to hurt your feelings.

It's cool, I understand how hard it is for things to be transferred over text.


Hmm, I suppose that is true, they do not really need to run on earthly biology principles. To me it seems kind of odd if my explanation for the phenomenon though is “it’s magic” or “it’s weird”, but in hind sight that is exactly how lovecraftian logic works. It is definitely possibly to just give them normal vision. People seem to be liking the whole blindsight and blindsense concept though, so for now I shall go with that. As potato priest already stated, it is a unique way for two normally overpowered features (flight and blindsight) to effectively “cancel each-other out” (that is a poor phrase to use but I can’t find a better word). That approach is definitely an interesting one to look into though. Thank you for offering that suggestion.

I'm fully aware of what's going on in the thread, and I'm honestly wondering where it will all end up and how it will work together. It's a really useful way to de-OP two very useful abilities. And I can really see the annoyance behind those reasonings, but sometimes it works well, and especially, as you said, for lovecraftian creatures.


You have been a rather great help to me too aniikinis, even if I don’t add in your proposed features you have got me to explore several alternative solutions. I am grateful for your assistance in the creation of this confusing little project. I never meant to hurt you in any manner, I am sorry if it sounded like that at all.

It's alright, even the thought that you're looking at this in a slightly different way makes all the difference. Who knows, you might take the viewpoint on a ride later on if you decide to to even more outlandish races/creatures.

[Requilac]

This race is actually going to become part of a lovecraftian mini-supplement for D&D 5e, so I will be creating many outlandish races and creatures. Most of those are not going to be appicable for PC races though, just as monsters. The concept of vision working normally without eyes is something that can be applied to many lovecraftian creatures that I will be creating, and it may be helpful to balance out certain creatures. Lovecraft seems to have an obsession with partially sentient blobs of alien flesh that run on some weird physics, after all.

[Aniikinis]

I'm almost certain that he was terrified of the sea, animals, the sky, darkness, eyes, mouths, and nothingness more than he was of anything else. Although I will admit that it would be very awesome to see Dzéwà, even though he didn't really do much of anything.

[Requilac]

I'm almost certain that he was terrified of the sea, animals, the sky, darkness, eyes, mouths, and nothingness more than he was of anything else. Although I will admit that it would be very awesome to see Dzéwà, even though he didn't really do much of anything.

Yeah, Lovecraft has a decent amount of things to be afraid of. I did not say he was afraid of partially sentient blobs of alien flesh that run on anomaly physics though, I just said he liked to sue them. Slight difference between the two. And I do not even know dzewa is, so lets see my Google fu have to say on that.

Antoher testament as to why you should fear xiclotl i see. The thing about creating that though is that in my supplement I am creating the lower level monsters that could reasonably be fought, not the entire collection of great old ones and outer gods which would be over CR 20 by a long shot. One cannot really “fight” them persay, it is possible to stop their plans for sure, but physicaly fighting with them would be nearly impossible. Not necessarily because the thing would be too powerful, but because they would just run on such strange physics that the PC’s would not even know how to damage them (assuming they even find out how to hit them in the first place). And really, most people homebrew their BBEGs and over CR 20 monsters in the first place, so it seems like they would not get much use if I were to make them.

A star spawn of dzewa could be something worth making though. Bonus points if its name is Audrey.

[Aniikinis]

Yeah, Lovecraft has a decent amount of things to be afraid of. I did not say he was afraid of partially sentient blobs of alien flesh that run on anomaly physics though, I just said he liked to sue them. Slight difference between the two. And I do not even know dzewa is, so lets see my Google fu have to say on that.

Antoher testament as to why you should fear xiclotl i see. The thing about creating that though is that in my supplement I am creating the lower level monsters that could reasonably be fought, not the entire collection of great old ones and outer gods which would be over CR 20 by a long shot. One cannot really “fight” them persay, it is possible to stop their plans for sure, but physicaly fighting with them would be nearly impossible. Not necessarily because the thing would be too powerful, but because they would just run on such strange physics that the PC’s would not even know how to damage them (assuming they even find out how to hit them in the first place). And really, most people homebrew their BBEGs and over CR 20 monsters in the first place, so it seems like they would not get much use if I were to make them.

Ahh, gotcha. And yes, yet another reason to fear xiclotl.


A star spawn of dzewa could be something worth making though. Bonus points if its name is Audrey.

Have you seen the Starborn(Old One Tainted Mortals) for pathfinder (http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/races/voyd-s-races/starborn)? It shouldn't take much to make them into a 5e race, and I've already made a subrace for Dzéwà called the Plantborn if you'd like a look at them, but that's really for another race and I feel that it'd derail the discussion far more than it already has.

[Requilac]

Ahh, gotcha. And yes, yet another reason to fear xiclotl.



Have you seen the Starborn(Old One Tainted Mortals) for pathfinder (http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/races/voyd-s-races/starborn)? It shouldn't take much to make them into a 5e race, and I've already made a subrace for Dzéwà called the Plantborn if you'd like a look at them, but that's really for another race and I feel that it'd derail the discussion far more than it already has.

I actually believe that these “starborn” would be closer to backgrounds in 5e than they would be to races, that is just my opinion though. And to be completely honest, I still think we are mostly on topic. We have still been talking about how to handle blindness for a lovecraftian creature for the most part, and when we weren’t talking about that we were talking about a heavily related subject, so for I would hardly call it detailing. The rules for derailing are also probably a little different if the OP is the one who triggers it too.

[Aniikinis]

I actually believe that these “starborn” would be closer to backgrounds in 5e than they would be to races, that is just my opinion though. And to be completely honest, I still think we are mostly on topic. We have still been talking about how to handle blindness for a lovecraftian creature for the most part, and when we weren’t talking about that we were talking about a heavily related subject, so for I would hardly call it detailing. The rules for derailing are also probably a little different if the OP is the one who triggers it too.

Good point. Ehh, I would be inclined to agree if it didn't warp the physiology of the race into something much different with different gods giving different effects.

[Requilac]

Good point. Ehh, I would be inclined to agree if it didn't warp the physiology of the race into something much different with different gods giving different effects.

A lot of the people from the Lovecraft books who came into contact with great old ones or outer gods were not very physically deformed afterward. The sailor that escaped the clutches of cthulhu from the call of Cthulhu came out a little deranged, but otherwise physically unchanged. The whateleys IIRC were unusually pale, but other than that normal. The people that banished the spawn of yog-shothoth In the dunwich horror came out without any physical change. The geologist and his buddy from at the mountains of madness were shaken by the experience, but once again no physical change. The old cat dude from the rats in the walls went insane but was still human physically. Curwen, Charles Ward, and ward’s father all siphoned power from yog-shothoth at least once over the course of the strange case of Charles dexter ward, but all of them were still recognizable as normal humans. The sailor from Dagon went insane but experienced no mutations. Randolph Carter never experienced deformations.

It was really only the deep ones and pickman that were physically altered in a major way that I can remember of the top of my head. And even then Pickman did not actually see any Eldritch deities, he just hanged out with the ghouls for a long enough period of time. I suppose the whateley boy that tried to get the neccronomicon could be considered a starborn too, but he is kind of a deviant considering the fact that he was actually a spawn of yog-shothoth, not merely human corrupted by its influence.

[Aniikinis]

A lot of the people from the Lovecraft books who came into contact with great old ones or outer gods were not very physically deformed afterward. The sailor that escaped the clutches of cthulhu from the call of Cthulhu came out a little deranged, but otherwise physically unchanged. The whateleys IIRC were unusually pale, but other than that normal. The people that banished the spawn of yog-sothoth In the dunwich horror came out without any physical change. The geologist and his buddy from at the mountains of madness were shaken by the experience, but once again no physical change. The old cat dude from the rats in the walls went insane but was still human physically. Curwen, Charles Ward, and ward’s father all siphoned power from yog-sothoth at least once over the course of the strange case of Charles dexter ward, but all of them were still recognizable as normal humans. The sailor from Dagon went insane but experienced no mutations. Randolph Carter never experienced deformations.

True, however they were all human at the beginning of the adventure and from after birth. Starborn are formed from the manipulations of Old Ones during pregnancy/conception. They are likened to aasimar, dhampir, and tiefling, in that, while they are from human lineage, there is a very distinctly other intermingled with that human bloodline.


It was really only the deep ones and pickman that were physically altered in a major way that I can remember of the top of my head. And even then Pickman did not actually see any Eldritch deities, he just hanged out with the ghouls for a long enough period of time. I suppose the whateley boy that tried to get the necronomicon could be considered a starborn too, but he is kind of a deviant considering the fact that he was actually a spawn of yog-sothoth, not merely human corrupted by its influence.

Deep Ones were there alongside humanity and could even be a case for the corrupting nature of Dagon and Mother Hydra to humans within their cults. And with Pickman... To be fair, going by 3.5 ghouls I could see Pickman getting ghoul fever with a longer effect time and slow metamorphosis instead of instant death/resurrection. Wilbur Whateley would be considered a Starborn of Yog-Sothoth, due to yog-sothoth having a very (ahem) direct role in his existence.

[Requilac]

True, however they were all human at the beginning of the adventure and from after birth. Starborn are formed from the manipulations of Old Ones during pregnancy/conception. They are likened to aasimar, dhampir, and tiefling, in that, while they are from human lineage, there is a very distinctly other intermingled with that human bloodline.



Deep Ones were there alongside humanity and could even be a case for the corrupting nature of Dagon and Mother Hydra to humans within their cults. And with Pickman... To be fair, going by 3.5 ghouls I could see Pickman getting ghoul fever with a longer effect time and slow metamorphosis instead of instant death/resurrection. Wilbur Whateley would be considered a Starborn of Yog-Sothoth, due to yog-sothoth having a very (ahem) direct role in his existence.

Following that logic I think that starborn are much too broad to be a race. The great old ones and outer gods are very unique and don’t always perform the same mutations. In my opinion, each mutated form of human would be deserving of its own race. A ghoul and a deep one do not share enough similarities to be sub-races of the same base race. And if I am being honest, I have no idea what Wilbur Whateley would be like if he represented in a race. He really did not do anything that different from a normal person. The only trait I could really think of for someone like him would be something based around dogs/beasts taking a disliking towards people of that race. We don’t have enough information on his abilities to make a race out of it.

[Aniikinis]

Following that logic I think that starborn are much too broad to be a race. The great old ones and outer gods are very unique and don’t always perform the same mutations. In my opinion, each mutated form of human would be deserving of its own race. A ghoul and a deep one do not share enough similarities to be sub-races of the same base race. And if I am being honest, I have no idea what Wilbur Whateley would be like if he represented in a race. He really did not do anything that different from a normal person. The only trait I could really think of for someone like him would be something based around dogs/beasts taking a disliking towards people of that race. We don’t have enough information on his abilities to make a race out of it.

Understandable, however that race is mainly a basic sort of "Human but not!" race that can be very easily reflavoured by the player to fit a certain Elder God. And I wasn't trying to imply that Deep Ones and Ghouls would be subraces of any kind. I could see Yog-Sothoth Starborn having the Unnatural trait, making all animals more hostile to them and giving them slight bonuses towards them.

[Requilac]

Understandable, however that race is mainly a basic sort of "Human but not!" race that can be very easily reflavoured by the player to fit a certain Elder God. And I wasn't trying to imply that Deep Ones and Ghouls would be subraces of any kind. I could see Yog-Sothoth Starborn having the Unnatural trait, making all animals more hostile to them and giving them slight bonuses towards them.

Fair enough, but I still think it would be better to create separate races for each type of starborn than just reflavoring them.

I actually concede to my former statement, we are definitely getting off topic now. I will look into creating a separate thread labeled lovecraftian subraces or something like that fairly soon so we can discuss this more in depth outside this thread. Now I am fairly certain we are derailing this one thread. That is my fault really not yours, but still, the furtherment of this conversation should exist elsewhere. Look to see that thread sometime soon, possibly today or tomorrow.

[Aniikinis]

Fair enough, but I still think it would be better to create separate races for each type of starborn than just reflavoring them.

Understood, and I can agree that it would be a more fulfilling character rather than just "this but not".


I actually concede to my former statement, we are definitely getting off topic now. I will look into creating a separate thread labeled lovecraftian subraces or something like that fairly soon so we can discuss this more in depth outside this thread. Now I am fairly certain we are derailing this one thread. That is my fault really not yours, but still, the furtherment of this conversation should exist elsewhere. Look to see that thread sometime soon, possibly today or tomorrow.

Alright, sounds good to me.

[Requilac]

Alright then, i have now created a thread which contains a collection of lovecraftian races that are in their rough draft form. Hopefully, we can move the former (slightly off topic) discussion to that thread. Here is the link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?544372-Lovecraftian-races-PEACH-(deep-one-ghoul-and-night-gaunt)) to it. So far i have made three races; the deep one, ghoul and night-gaunt, but i will take suggestions on new ones to add in.

[Nifft]

Two more quick thoughts on Night Gaunt senses:

Emotion Scent: You can smell the emotions of creatures around you. You can identify individuals by their emotional scent. This gives you Advantage on Insight checks and on Survival checks to follow or track an individual you know, or an individual who was especially emotional at the time the trail was made.

Eyes in the Dark: Whenever a creature with eyes stares at you with killing intent -- for example, when attacking you with a ranged weapon -- you are aware of this fact, and you can use your Reaction to know exactly where the creature was at the moment that the attack was made. For this moment, you see yourself from the creature's point of view.

[Requilac]

Two more quick thoughts on Night Gaunt senses:

Emotion Scent: You can smell the emotions of creatures around you. You can identify individuals by their emotional scent. This gives you Advantage on Insight checks and on Survival checks to follow or track an individual you know, or an individual who was especially emotional at the time the trail was made.

Eyes in the Dark: Whenever a creature with eyes stares at you with killing intent -- for example, when attacking you with a ranged weapon -- you are aware of this fact, and you can use your Reaction to know exactly where the creature was at the moment that the attack was made. For this moment, you see yourself from the creature's point of view.

Those all seem rather cool, but in all honesty, the night gaunt's blind senses is pretty powerful as is. I am doubtful of making a feature which could already very well be overpowered even stronger. The emotion scent is pretty cool, but i think it kind of clashes with one of the weaknesses i was attempting to create. Due to the way that their blind senses behave I was trying to make it so that they are inferior to normal vision when it comes to making checks that rely on examining minor physical details, such as when tracking something. While emotion scent is definitely thematically appropriate, i am kind of suspcious about its ability to mechanically effect the game. I may just be overthinking this a little bit too much though. Eyes in the dark is another awesome ability to have, but I am worried about the whole "seeing from the creatures' point of view" part. That does not seem like something that should be easy to do, and it seems highly unbalanced unless limited in some way. Perhaps i could make it a once per short /long rest ability, but even then I am still doubtful. All of things you said are great from a thematic perspective, but i am rather nervous about making their blind sense even stronger than it already is. Don't you think it might be a little too much, or is that just me?

[Nifft]

Yeah, if you wanted to use those as-is you'd probably want to remove something else.

Emotion Scent could also be reduced to merely identify individuals (so you get facial recognition) and read emotions no better than sight could (so you are allowed to make Insight checks into behavior, just like a sighted PC could).

They're more tools.

[Requilac]

Yeah, if you wanted to use those as-is you'd probably want to remove something else.

Emotion Scent could also be reduced to merely identify individuals (so you get facial recognition) and read emotions no better than sight could (so you are allowed to make Insight checks into behavior, just like a sighted PC could).

They're more tools.

Hmm, well I think they are fine as is. The only feature I could really remove and still be able to maintain the basis of the night-gaunt is night camoflouge. And my main concern with night camoflouge is that even if I did not give them that trait, most DMs who were familiar with the beast would probably give them something similar anyway. It’s kind of the weird position where it is racial feature that is probably going to get included whether I directly state it or not. I think the best way to limit their power is to keep it as is. Unless you can make a good case against it I do not believe I will add in either, if you don’t mind. Perhaps there is something I am not picking up on though that you have found out.