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MrNexx
2007-08-20, 12:44 PM
The thread about gishs got me thinking about a variant wizard who's designed to be a gish.

I was thinking that, like a Battle Sorcerer, he'd have 1 less spell per spell level (to a minimum of 0, allowing them to cast if they have bonus spells of that level), would lose the spells learned per level (or maybe cut it to 1, or just when a new spell level is gained?), and would have fighter feats instead of wizard feats. They'd lose Scribe Scroll, replacing it with Martial Weapon Proficiency and Simple Weapon proficiency, and would be Light Armored Casters with a d8 HD and 3/4 BAB.

yango
2007-08-20, 12:48 PM
IMO losing spells learned wouldn't be enough of a trade-off for Wizards, because of the infinite potential for learning from other spellbooks/scrolls. However, since Wizards lack spells-per-day more than sorcerers, losing spells-per-day could be altered to be fair.

dyslexicfaser
2007-08-20, 02:10 PM
I think you just described the Warmage from... was it Complete Adventurer? One of the Completes.

The Glyphstone
2007-08-20, 02:24 PM
No, Warmages are much closer to Sorcerers. They have the same spontaneous casting with lots of spell slots, and automatically know almost all damage-dealing spells from the Sorc/Wiz class list (pre-SC, mostly), but almost no other spells, and it's extremely hard for them to learn any sort of utility magic. Complete Arcane, btw.

AtomicKitKat
2007-08-20, 11:09 PM
To be fair, he almost described the Warmage anyway. Just drop some of the spells from the Wizard's list(not really sure what. I guess keep battlefield control and self-buffs, lose debuffs), possibly forced specialisation(think Beguiler), and you've more or less got it. The main reason a Battle Wizard doesn't quite work as well as a Spontaneous Caster is because the Wizard's schtick is that he finds out what he needs(Divination), then prepares for it.

MrNexx
2007-08-21, 12:12 AM
I can't think of many ways more ways in which this is different from a Warmage.

Warmage
d6 HD
1/2 BAB
Spontaneous Caster
Gets all of spell list as soon as can cast spells
Several abilities to improve spellcasting (largely specified bonus sudden metamagic feats)

Battle Wizard
d8 HD
3/4 BAB
Prepared Caster (-1 spell per level from wizards)
Gains one spell per level, can learn more.
Gains 4 fighter feats as advances
Familiar

What they share is Strong Will Saves, 2 sp/level, light armored caster, and their weapon proficiency (all simple and one martial).

Ikkitosen
2007-08-21, 03:01 AM
The problem you have is that you're giving up one spell slot per level for a 2 step increase in HD, a one step increase in BAB and armoured casting. Oh, and all simple/martial weapons. Seriously?

So ok, you lose one automatic spell known per level. Whoop-dee doo. That is a tiny deal compared to the benefits you're suggesting considering how wizards learn new spells.

Wizards are already powerful. In fact, if you notice, the most powerful classes are the prepared casters (cleric, druid, wizard). Upgrading them may be a bad idea.

The Glyphstone
2007-08-21, 06:54 AM
I can't think of many ways more ways in which this is different from a Warmage.

Warmage
d6 HD
1/2 BAB
Spontaneous Caster
Gets all of spell list as soon as can cast spells
Several abilities to improve spellcasting (largely specified bonus sudden metamagic feats)

Battle Wizard
d8 HD
3/4 BAB
Prepared Caster (-1 spell per level from wizards)
Gains one spell per level, can learn more.
Gains 4 fighter feats as advances
Familiar

What they share is Strong Will Saves, 2 sp/level, light armored caster, and their weapon proficiency (all simple and one martial).

You did forget the one thing that (IMO) really makes a Warmage a Warmage - his near-total inability to anything except blow stuff up as a blastercaster. Wizards "can" be Batman, this theoretical Battle Wizard would be a less effective Batman who can stand up in a fight better. Warmages can never be Batman.

Droodle
2007-08-21, 07:10 AM
Warmages can never be Batman.Well, with Eclectic Learning, he can come close enough.

MrNexx
2007-08-21, 09:21 AM
The problem you have is that you're giving up one spell slot per level for a 2 step increase in HD, a one step increase in BAB and armoured casting. Oh, and all simple/martial weapons. Seriously?

One martial weapon only.


So ok, you lose one automatic spell known per level. Whoop-dee doo. That is a tiny deal compared to the benefits you're suggesting considering how wizards learn new spells.

That was part of what I wasn't sure about. I asked about it in the OP, before people became convinced I was recreating the Warmage.

So, what else would you suggest? Require them to sacrifice a school of magic? Learn no new spells on level up?

yango
2007-08-21, 09:23 AM
So, what else would you suggest? Require them to sacrifice a school of magic? Learn no new spells on level up?

Learn 2 spells on level up, reduce number or slow rate of spells per day progression. Oh, and drop familiar and go to d6 hit dice. d8 is just too much.

Ikkitosen
2007-08-21, 09:53 AM
One martial weapon only.

I noticed, but the board wouldn't let me edit my post at the time. One isn't such a big deal, I agree.


So, what else would you suggest? Require them to sacrifice a school of magic? Learn no new spells on level up?

Well, ask yourself; what's better, 1 extra spell per level or one fewer spell plus D8 HD plus medium BAB plus armour plus weapon profs? 1 extra spell is worth 2 schools. I think what you have is, on balance, better. Banning 3 schools might be the right way to go, or 4 but divination can be one of them.

The main drawback of the battle sorc is the reduction in spells known - you'll need to go a long way to balance your guy since you're effectively dodging this.

You'd have to playtest it mind, but I reckon you'd still be butt-kickingly good. What type of game would you want it for - CoDzilla, Beguiler, Druid, this guy or Rogue, Fighter, normal Cleric, this guy?

GNUsNotUnix
2007-08-21, 10:52 AM
I think banning schools is probably the way to go. Keeping the more battle-focused schools (Abjuration, Evocation) makes sense, but I'd drop the . . . uh, "wizardy" stuff. I'd ban Enchantment, Illusion, Divination, and Necromancy, for thematics and balance. A half wizard with half the wizard spell list.

yango
2007-08-21, 11:03 AM
I think banning schools is probably the way to go. Keeping the more battle-focused schools (Abjuration, Evocation) makes sense, but I'd drop the . . . uh, "wizardy" stuff. I'd ban Enchantment, Illusion, Divination, and Necromancy, for thematics and balance. A half wizard with half the wizard spell list.

I'd keep Divination, since there are a bunch of combat-oriented spells that would fit the bill there (True Strike anyone?).

So a combat Wizard gets Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, and Evocation?

Ikkitosen
2007-08-21, 11:03 AM
I'd keep Divination, since there are a bunch of combat-oriented spells that would fit the bill there (True Strike anyone?).

So a combat Wizard gets Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, and Evocation?

And transmutation. Never forget transmutation.

axraelshelm
2007-08-21, 12:11 PM
What you want can simply be done with multi-classing though.
2 levels of fighter with 18 levels of wizard depending how high you want your spells to go. When in doubt 2 levels in barbian to get the extra hit points to even the hitpoint total.