Has optimization gone too far?

[Adrunkpotato5]

Okay I'm kinda new to dnd 3.5 but I have a knack for optimization. I have recently found some dumb stats that I believe work by RAW but I'm not quite sure.

Taint (heroes of horror)
Corruption
Mild symptom (gums swell)
Moderate symptom (bones swell)
Severe symptom (lich eyes)
Depravity
Severe symptom (severe phobia -spiders- [who isn't?])

Pact insideous
9 points
4 points feat twice
1 point (some skill buff)

Worship elder evil

2 flaws (not terribly familiar)

9 free feats at level one? I'm not planning on running this but I enjoy speculation on powerful builds and personally have no life. I would greatly appreciate feedback and potential suggestions for further cheese. I can't say I don't enjoy extra cheese on my pizza so if you gave me some I would love it!

(Lv 1 limited)

EDIT:
This is specifically heroes of horror not unearthed arcana, they are different and I should have mentioned it earlier I was just unaware

EDIT: in case anyone has the wrong idea I will reiterate this is theoretical, if I were to even consider running anything like this it would be to support obscure or ultra weak builds

[Jack_Simth]

There is no optimization ceiling in D&D 3.5 since shortly after they printed Serpent Kingdoms. Additionally, balance is really only relevant relative to a given gaming table. A team of four level 10 Wizards that can all individually solo Great Wyrm Red dragons with ease can be fun. A team of four level 10 Monks that have difficulties with Goblin Warrior-1's can be fun. Problems exist, however, when one of the monks goes to the Wizard's table, or one of the Wizard's goes to the Monk's table. It's not that weak characters are bad. It's not that strong characters are bad. It's that a significant power discrepancy between players at the same table is bad.

As a result, though, "how much is too much?" is a question that can't be answered outside of the context of individual gaming tables and individual gamers' tastes.

Also: Those aren't "free" feats, because flaws do bad things to your character, as does taint, as do pacts.... however, that's a lot of min/maxing.

[JNAProductions]

Yeah, that's peanuts compared to some of the shenanigans you can pull off.

To answer the thread title, though, no. Not in a UNIVERSAL sense. However, at any given table, it might go too far.

[Serin]

I wouldn't say this, or optimization in general, has gone too far.

In support of that, I direct you to the rest of the rules you are invoking. I have invoked taint rules before as a player in a campaign where the GM had not even started using them, I asked for them.

First off, in order for this to be manageable as a player you will need to be either some form of undead or pick up the feat that helps mitigate taint penalties. I think it was Tomb Tainted Soul. Without such a lot of the corruption and depravity symptoms can be crippling. Per RAW you don't get to pick how your taint manifests, so unless a GM is very permissive you probably will not get to min max your symptoms.

Even if you can min max your symptoms, or otherwise negate them via above methods, you are still a walking death machine that is not compatible with NPC life. As a tainted individual you will exude taint and if you remain in an area long enough can even taint the landscape. Any PC or NPC that spends time with you will accrue taint as well unless they are undead or have the feat. Ultimately this means you will literally be driving NPCs insane and that will at least hamper your adventuring if it doesn't get a mob after you with pitchforks.

As far as a pact insidious is concerned, you're bargaining with a devil. Sure its not as big of a risk as the pact certain, but devils generally design a pact insidious the same way a casino designs its floor. The pact insidious gives you a taste of power and pushes you to ever increasing depths of evil to get more, with the ultimate goal of getting you to sign a pact certain.

Pacts are pure GM fiat and you are inviting the GM to basically screw with your character in exchange for feats. As such, the same thing I said before applies here. If the GM is particularly lax or forgiving it may never come up and you get free feats. If the GM plays it as they should this character will be embroiled in a constant battle for their soul from the very outset of the campaign. That may make for a good story, but its a high price to pay for a few feats.

There are far cheesier ways to become far more powerful in this game that involve less fiat and less risk.

[Necroticplague]

9 free feats at level one? I'm not planning on running this but I enjoy speculation on powerful builds and personally have no life. I would greatly appreciate feedback and potential suggestions for further cheese. I can't say I don't enjoy extra cheese on my pizza so if you gave me some I would love it!

(Lv 1 limited)

Not seeing how you're getting 9 from that. That's two from Taint (for severe taint), 2 for Pacts, 2 for flaws, and 1 for Elder Evil. That's only 7, one of which is limited in what you can select with it.

Also, I hardly call 'I owe Hell a few favors', 'I have outright penalties to somethings' and 'severely mutated by exposure to great evils' to be 'free'. Keep in mind, a player doesn't select Taint affects, it's rolled on a table.

And the downsides for all of those are much harder on low-level characters than high-level ones.

The only one that's actually free is very limited (Elder Evil feats can only be taken from the table in that book).

However, on a note of free lunches, being a sadist, mascochist, or both does come with some minor perks, and there's no real requirements or restrictions. BoVD.

[Akal Saris]

Okay I'm kinda new to dnd 3.5 but I have a knack for optimization. I have recently found some dumb stats that I believe work by RAW but I'm not quite sure.

Taint (heroes of horror)
Corruption
Mild symptom (gums swell)
Moderate symptom (bones swell)
Severe symptom (lich eyes)
Depravity
Severe symptom (severe phobia -spiders- [who isn't?])

Pact insideous
9 points
4 points feat twice
1 point (some skill buff)

Worship elder evil

2 flaws (not terribly familiar)

9 free feats at level one? I'm not planning on running this but I enjoy speculation on powerful builds and personally have no life. I would greatly appreciate feedback and potential suggestions for further cheese. I can't say I don't enjoy extra cheese on my pizza so if you gave me some I would love it!

(Lv 1 limited)

I built a similar character optimized around corruption and elder evils feats (in particular the entire Dark Words feat line), going binder/wizard into Anima Mage. Binder is terrific because Naberius vestige can eliminate the ability stat damage from the elder evils bonus feats.

Have (evil) fun!

[Boggartbae]

Im not sure if everyone always plays the incredibly min/maxed characters that they talk about on the boards, or if that's just theory and they still enjoy a VoP monk every once in a while. The answer may be yes, but I don't think anyone wants to optimise all the time.

Also, Masochists generally have wounds that equal 10-30% of their hotpoint total.

Also also, cool build. I can think of some barbarian builds who would love those feats.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Try playing an elf for the six free Weapon Proficiency feats, then purchasing the embrace the dark chaos and shun the dark chaos spells from the Fiendish Codex I to swap them for other feats. You can do the same for the Armor and Shield Proficiencies from any class that has armor and shield proficiencies. (Check the Light/Medium/Heavy Armor Proficiency and Shield Proficiency feats for details on this.) All it costs is gp, which is easily replaceable.

[Nifft]

Im not sure if everyone always plays the incredibly min/maxed characters that they talk about on the boards, or if that's just theory and they still enjoy a VoP monk every once in a while. Even just plain Practical Optimization is beyond most games I've played or run.



Also, Masochists generally have wounds that equal 10-30% of their hotpoint total. :sabine: "Ooo, stab my hotpoint."

(Sorry.)

[emeraldstreak]

Okay I'm kinda new to dnd 3.5 but I have a knack for optimization. I have recently found some dumb stats that I believe work by RAW but I'm not quite sure.

Taint (heroes of horror)
Corruption
Mild symptom (gums swell)
Moderate symptom (bones swell)
Severe symptom (lich eyes)
Depravity
Severe symptom (severe phobia -spiders- [who isn't?])

Pact insideous
9 points
4 points feat twice
1 point (some skill buff)

Worship elder evil

2 flaws (not terribly familiar)

9 free feats at level one? I'm not planning on running this but I enjoy speculation on powerful builds and personally have no life. I would greatly appreciate feedback and potential suggestions for further cheese. I can't say I don't enjoy extra cheese on my pizza so if you gave me some I would love it!

(Lv 1 limited)

Are you supposed to cherrypick taint? Try rolling.

[ayvango]

Now you can take venerable dragonwrought kobold which has access to epic feats

[TotallyNotEvil]

No Dread Sorcerer King?

And you dare talk about optimization!

[ayvango]

Are you supposed to cherrypick taint? Try rolling.
Is there any way to avoid rolling? Could you use lesser wish or a full wish to say "I wish next d20 roll would be natural 20"?

[emeraldstreak]

Is there any way to avoid rolling? Could you use lesser wish or a full wish to say "I wish next d20 roll would be natural 20"?

It's not a d20, or in-game roll for that matter. Characters can't affect it anymore than they can affect the DM rolling on a random encounter table.

Cherrypicking the least harmful results doesn't represent the actual cost of taint.

[Boggartbae]

:sabine: "Ooo, stab my hotpoint."

(Sorry.)

Lol oops :smallredface:

I wonder how high Sabine's hotpoint total could go, given that she's a demonic shape-changer and all.


(even more sorry.)

[FocusWolf413]

No Dread Sorcerer King?

And you dare talk about optimization!

You should be hiding of your wizard builds unless you're brave enough to face certain defeat by the hands of invincible Sorcerer King! Better and improve!

[Sorcerer pictures]

[MaxiDuRaritry]

We can only pray that you guys aren't pulling the equivalent of summoning Hastur, Pazuzu, or worst of them all, Red Fel. *Shudder*

[Nifft]

I wonder how high Sabine's hotpoint total could go, given that she's a demonic shape-changer and all.


(even more sorry.) Heh!

Like some kind of perversion-themed Warshaper.

'Morphic Weapons', indeed.

[Adrunkpotato5]

No Dread Sorcerer King?

And you dare talk about optimization!

What's dread sorcerer king?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

What's dread sorcerer king?It's best not to ask, honestly.

Please don't ask.

You might summon him.

[Adrunkpotato5]

Are you supposed to cherrypick taint? Try rolling.

I mainly made this as an example, I would definitely roll but I picked the least impactful as more a proof of concept

[Nifft]

What's dread sorcerer king?

There's a poster who has been repeatedly banned, yet who ban-evades just to re-post a specific thread.

IIRC, that thread's title is "something something Sorcerer King".

[Adrunkpotato5]

Are you supposed to cherrypick taint? Try rolling.


Try playing an elf for the six free Weapon Proficiency feats, then purchasing the embrace the dark chaos and shun the dark chaos spells from the Fiendish Codex I to swap them for other feats. You can do the same for the Armor and Shield Proficiencies from any class that has armor and shield proficiencies. (Check the Light/Medium/Heavy Armor Proficiency and Shield Proficiency feats for details on this.) All it costs is gp, which is easily replaceable.

The big point is doing crazy shenanigans like this at level one. That is none the less awesome and you could totally use this for an abundance of feats but it's expensive and requires build room as dumb as I may sound saying that.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The big point is doing crazy shenanigans like this at level one. That is none the less awesome and you could totally use this for an abundance of feats but it's expensive and requires build room as dumb as I may sound saying that.If you've ever heard of The Great And Powerful Pun-Pun (patent pending), he's also level 1.

[Adrunkpotato5]

There's a poster who has been repeatedly banned, yet who ban-evades just to re-post a specific thread.

IIRC, that thread's title is "something something Sorcerer King".

To get this right it goes
Step one: summon undead capable of worshipping you
Step two: make them and become a god?

I may have found the wrong forum

[Vizzerdrix]

I say optimization has not gone too far enough!

[Adrunkpotato5]

If you've ever heard of The Great And Powerful Pun-Pun (patent pending), he's also level 1.

I am aware I'm simply looking for other shenanigans

[ayvango]

Try playing an elf for the six free Weapon Proficiency feats
I always thought that elf has only 4 proficiency feats.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I always thought that elf has only 4 proficiency feats.1.) Longsword
2.) Rapier
3.) Longbow
4.) Composite Longbow
5.) Shortbow
6.) Composite Shortbow

At least, the elf monster entry says they have the Weapon Proficiency feats with those. Though the race entry says (including composite X). Your mileage may vary, I guess.

[Blue Jay]

1.) Longsword
2.) Rapier
3.) Longbow
4.) Composite Longbow
5.) Shortbow
6.) Composite Shortbow

At least, the elf monster entry says they have the Weapon Proficiency feats with those. Though the race entry says (including composite X). Your mileage may vary, I guess.

There aren't separate feats for standard bows and composite bows: a feat that applies to one applies to the other also. See the weapon entries (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#longbowComposite) for that rule.

[Jack_Simth]

We can only pray that you guys aren't pulling the equivalent of summoning Hastur, Pazuzu, or worst of them all, Red Fel. *Shudder*

Why would we worry about accidentally summoning Red Fel? He's lawful-evil, and in abiding by forum rules (while not out quietly manipulating the world to suit his own ends) he's quite helpful for roleplaying tips on that alignment. As I understand it, he's also quite knowledgeable about 3.5 rules in general.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Why would we worry about accidentally summoning Red Fel? He's lawful-evil, and in abiding by forum rules (while not out quietly manipulating the world to suit his own ends) he's quite helpful for roleplaying tips on that alignment. As I understand it, he's also quite knowledgeable about 3.5 rules in general.That's why he's so insidious...

[Adrunkpotato5]

However, on a note of free lunches, being a sadist, mascochist, or both does come with some minor perks, and there's no real requirements or restrictions. BoVD.

Can you give me a page number?

[Necroticplague]

Can you give me a page number?

Yes, I can.

[Adrunkpotato5]

Yes, I can.
And that page is?
*Not trying to be rude I'm like an over eager kid waiting for candy*

[Necroticplague]

And that page is?
*Not trying to be rude I'm like an over eager kid waiting for candy*

Page 10, BoVD, "Fetishes and Addictions".