How to make wish more powerfull?

[ayvango]

Wish spell effects should always be adjudged by master. And what should she do when player wishes for too powerful effect?

I know two precedents. pre 3.5 Savage Species depicts a ritual that require wish spell and spellcraft check to attain spell effect that exceed normal wish power.

SRD wish description suggested another way. If you would like to get powerful wish effect then you should cast consequently number of wish spells. If you would like to simulate true resurrection you required to cast two wish spells. To get +4 inherited bonus on single attribute you need 4 consequent wish casts.

So the question is. If player wants a powerful effect what could I suggest her? Several casts or spellcraft DC or both? What is consistent way to alter reality in significant way?

[Kayden Prynn]

The reason wish has limits is that reality doesn't like bending to the will of mere mortals. If you push to far, either it doesn't work or it goes catastrophically wrong. If you, as the DM, choose to ignore this, that's entirely up to you. You can just remove all limits on wish if you want. It's your game.

That said, if you're looking to allow things above what wish can do RAW, without making them automatic, the spellcraft check is probably the best way. It represents the caster's ability to manipulate whatever the source of all magic in the world is, allowing them to draw more power. But make sure the penalty for failure matches how common you want this to be. If you want anyone who casts wish to be able to pull it off most of the time, it might be better as a simple percentile roll with a low chance of failure, and have that failure be small, like doing a moderate amount of damage, or something purely narrative. If you want it to be possible, but difficult, make it a DC upwards of 35 or even 40, and make the penalty level loss, or even death. It really depends how often you want it done, and how dangerous you want it to be.

[flappeercraft]

I would leave the DC honestly at over 50 with a spellcraft check. With no optimization in Core you can cast wish at level 17, 20 spellcraft ranks and +12 Int gets you +32. A DC 35 is basically automatic and 40 is still pretty easy. With a DC 50 for more powerful effects, that seems reasonable to me.

[weckar]

+12 Int That's... 34 INT score? Sure, that's not impossible but you can hardly put that within the expected measures? Certainly not for a non-int-based caster?

[Kayden Prynn]

I would leave the DC honestly at over 50 with a spellcraft check. With no optimization in Core you can cast wish at level 17, 20 spellcraft ranks and +12 Int gets you +32. A DC 35 is basically automatic and 40 is still pretty easy. With a DC 50 for more powerful effects, that seems reasonable to me.

+12 int is a little nuts, although I do see your point, since, with your only optimization being "pump int at every opportunity" I can easily see int getting up to a 28, or +9, and adding synergy bonus (because this is theoretically a wizard, and what wizard doesn't take Knowledge (Arcana)?) brings it to +31, only 1 less than you had, so still a fair point. DC 50 might be a little high, depending, but definitely no lower than 45 if you want it to be a challenge.

[weckar]

It still assumed you're going to max out spellcraft. If you go that far; while not trivial, this should in no way be a near-impossible task for the dice - you are a specialist, after all.
DC 45 seems right if the consequences for failure aren't too bad.

[Malimar]

That said, if you're looking to allow things above what wish can do RAW, without making them automatic, the spellcraft check is probably the best way. It represents the caster's ability to manipulate whatever the source of all magic in the world is, allowing them to draw more power. But make sure the penalty for failure matches how common you want this to be. If you want anyone who casts wish to be able to pull it off most of the time, it might be better as a simple percentile roll with a low chance of failure, and have that failure be small, like doing a moderate amount of damage, or something purely narrative. If you want it to be possible, but difficult, make it a DC upwards of 35 or even 40, and make the penalty level loss, or even death. It really depends how often you want it done, and how dangerous you want it to be.
I've got a related house rule:

When a spell almost can but can't quite achieve a desired effect, or achieves the desired effect with the most generous reading but not a narrower reading (for example, using heal to cure natural insanity, or using protection from evil to ward off a [compulsion] that only grants control over the target in the broadest sense), a caster of spells or SLAs can alter a spell's effect slightly on the fly. This requires a caster level check or spellcraft check at a difficulty of 15 plus twice the level of the spell to modify.
This of course takes a lot of DM adjudication -- what's "almost but not quite" and what's just "no"? So it's barely better than base wish in that sense. And it's a relatively easy DC for somebody who's invested in Spellcraft to make. Still, it's the baseline I use in my game to solve "can this spell do that?" disputes, and would therefore apply to certain broad-but-not-too-broad wishes.

Aside from that, yeah, I'd let people chain wishes together in the same way you have to do for an inherent ability score bonus beyond +1. Probably in the "I wish for my next wish to allow twice as powerful an effect" vein (any more than +1 wishpower per wish cast is too powerful and fails in the regular way).

[ayvango]

That's... 34 INT score? Sure, that's not impossible but you can hardly put that within the expected measures? Certainly not for a non-int-based caster?
PaO black ethergaunt

[Elkad]

Spellcraft (or any skill) is just WAY too easy to optimize.

Bonus squared x100 is only 40k for +20 competence.

And spellcraft is a thing that you occasionally want to buff crazy high, but don't usually need that way. Which means it's a perfect thing to have for rent at the local wizard's guild.

Out of core you add on a bunch of other types of bonus as well.
So the big city mages guild rents out "Spectacles of Spell Researching: This item provides a +60 bonus to Spellcraft checks (+20 Competence, +10 Enhancement, +10 Insight, +10 Luck, +10 Morale) when worn. Price 160,000gp" for 1-3k/day (security deposit required for full value of course).

[weckar]

Anything with a bonus that high would be an Epic item, Elkad. I forget where exactly the cutoff is, but you hit it.

[ayvango]

It is only 20 bonus at most. And all other bonuses are just 10. And you could stack them all.

[weckar]

I suppose if someone wanted to put that many resources into it, I'd just give it to them.

[icefractal]

If the game allows custom items, sure. Many don't, or only allow ones in line with published items, and I don't think any of those go past +5 for Spellcraft.

[flappeercraft]

Int boosting made easy (assumes level 17) 18 +4 leveling +4 Inherent +6 enhancement is already 32, 34 if grey elf or level 20 and instead get +5 on leveling and inherent. With both level 20 and grey elf that gets you 36. That is assuming no PaO tricks or similar which can get you way higher Int.

[Zancloufer]

Anything with a bonus that high would be an Epic item, Elkad. I forget where exactly the cutoff is, but you hit it.

+6 for Stat boosts, +5 for Enhancements on weapon/armour (though total +10 if you take effects that are effectively a +x enhancement), +5 AC/Saves and +30 for skills.

+30 is the pre-epic cut off for skill boosting magic items.


Also on the Int note: 18 PB/Roll +2 Int Race, +5 from wishes and/or tomes, +4 levels and +6 Item gets you 35. Add in aging and that last point at level 20 and you can hit 39.

[Bucky]

The spellcraft DC shouldn't be constant. It should scale depending on how far they're exceeding the normal guaranteed wishes.

[Cosi]

If I were to do this, I'd probably use the Epic Spellcasting rules. Figure out the DC for the effect they want (with no mitigation), require them to make that check, and either convert all costs to XP or have wish subsume the costs entirely. Honestly though, having it be a skill check is probably not ideal because level is a poor predictor of skill bonuses.

[Elkad]

Heck, I thought the limit was +20, not +30. That's why I built it the way I did. 20 Competence (at bonus squared x100gp), and then 10 on all the other bonuses (at ((bonus squared x100)*1.5 for addon power)*2 for non-standard bonus type).

And of course there are many more bonus types. And many of them could be on separate items, keeping the cost down. Circumstance bonus for consulting the "Library of Prior Wishes".

[Zanos]

Chaining together multiple wishes for more powerful effects is canon. Wish uses this in one of it's listed effects for up to +5 inherent bonuses but only when cast subsequently, and a canon villain uses thousands of castings of wish to siphon off the divine spark of a dead god and ascend in an adventure.


The reason wish has limits is that reality doesn't like bending to the will of mere mortals.
"Mere" mortals that bind the greatest of angels and demons to their will, effortlessly walk through planes, forge new planes from nothing, teleport armies, raise the dead, extend their lives indefinitely, transfer their souls into prepared clones, rip out and trap the souls of others, snap their fingers to create masterworks, divine secrets thought lost to the ages, and enslave the minds of others?

Not saying I disagree with you that wish has limitations. Crudely enforcing your will on reality is difficult. But there's nothing "mere" about someone who can cast 9th level spells. In many cases, there's nothing "mortal" about them either.

[Feantar]

+30 is the pre-epic cut off for skill boosting magic items.

That is wrong RAW, although I think the intention was that this should be the case(RAI). The standard skill bonus that items give is competence, while the epic rules say that items that grant an enhancement bonus on a skill check greater than 30 are epic.

Which brings the limit on epic skill bonus items to the market price limit of 200,000 gp, which, using utter cheese that would cause a book shaped projectile to puncture one's gray matter would be:

5ft Square Rune Circle of Spellcraft that can only be used by Incantatrices:
(Unmodified Market Price) * 0.25(Rune Circle) * 0.5(Small Rune Circle) *0.7(Class Requirement) = 200000 <=>
(Bonus^2) * 100 * 0.0875 = 200000 <=>
Bonus = SQRT(22857.1428571) ~= 151.

So maximum non epic magic item bonus is 151. I cannot think of any more cost reductions to the actual market price. I am counting the full cost reduction of a rune circle, because most uses of spellcraft, especially for an incantatrix, are mobile (on the spot modifications for spells, identifying effects, etc). This just helps with a pre-planned wish. Which is really powerful, but niche.

I also have an inkling that I messed up the modifiers above.

[Zancloufer]

That is wrong RAW, although I think the intention was that this should be the case(RAI). The standard skill bonus that items give is competence, while the epic rules say that items that grant an enhancement bonus on a skill check greater than 30 are epic.

Which brings the limit on epic skill bonus items to the market price limit of 200,000 gp, which, using utter cheese that would cause a book shaped projectile to puncture one's gray matter would be:

5ft Square Rune Circle of Spellcraft that can only be used by Incantatrices:
(Unmodified Market Price) * 0.25(Rune Circle) * 0.5(Small Rune Circle) *0.7(Class Requirement) = 200000 <=>
(Bonus^2) * 100 * 0.0875 = 200000 <=>
Bonus = SQRT(22857.1428571) ~= 151.

So maximum non epic magic item bonus is 151. I cannot think of any more cost reductions to the actual market price. I am counting the full cost reduction of a rune circle, because most uses of spellcraft, especially for an incantatrix, are mobile (on the spot modifications for spells, identifying effects, etc). This just helps with a pre-planned wish. Which is really powerful, but niche.

I also have an inkling that I messed up the modifiers above.


Actually the Epic Magic item rules state that:



Epic Magic Items

While not truly an artifact, the epic magic item is a creation of such power that it surpasses other magic items. Epic magic items are objects of great power and value. The following are typical characteristics of an epic magic item. In general, an item with even one of these characteristics is an epic magic item.

Grants a bonus on attacks or damage greater than +5.
Grants an enhancement bonus to armor higher than +5.
Has a special ability with a market price modifier greater than +5.
Grants an armor bonus of greater than +10 (not including magic armor’s enhancement bonus).
Grants a natural armor, deflection, or resistance bonus greater than +5.
Grants an enhancement bonus to an ability score greater than +6.
Grants an enhancement bonus on a skill check greater than +30.
Mimics a spell of an effective level higher than 9th.
Has a caster level above 20th.
Has a market price above 200,000 gp, not including material costs for armor or weapons, material component- or experience point-based costs, or additional value for intelligent items.


So if you break either 200k OR +30 competence bonus it is epic. You are under both it is not an Epic Magic item.

[Feantar]

So if you break either 200k OR +30 competence bonus it is epic. You are under both it is not an Epic Magic item.

No, that's the point. Yes, if you break 200k it is epic but no, if you just break +30 competence, it's not; read the rules you quoted above. It says enhancement not competence. They specified the wrong type of bonus. And due to this you can get to +44 competence without reduction shenanigans or +151 competence with them (because at that point you hit the 200k mark).

In my eyes it's a clear mistake, but RAW, it's valid.

[Caelestion]

You're also liable to get hit by a flying book if you tried passing that one seriously. Anyone who keeps treating the magical item guidelines in the DMG as RAW is technically right, but it says very clearly that they don't work without healthy doses of RAI too.