Template for a changeling

[LaRayna]

Hey guys, I have a question for you. We have a new campaign coming up and I want to play a changeling rogue. We're allowed up to a two level adjustment template and I'm torn between shadow creature and dark creature because of shadow blend and hide in plain sight. Shadow blend sounds a little better than normal hide in plain sight, plus the extra abilities per four hit dice. Though my dm said if I take the dark creature only level adjustment one, I can add a plus two bonus to an ability score. What would you do?

[weckar]

Would you be allowed two +1 LA templates? That usually works out to be more powerful than a single +2 LA.

[Nifft]

Do you get the LA +2 template for free (i.e. without level adjustment)?
Or are you allowed to take it, but you have to pay for it (i.e. you get less experience and need more XP to level up)?

If it's free, then the Shadow Creature (LA +2) template is great. You're effectively invisible outside of direct sunlight. That's amazing. You also get a perk every 4 HD, which can be good stuff like Fast Healing or plane shift.

Shadow Creature gets +50% base speed; Dark Creature gets +10 ft.

[LaRayna]

We only get one template regardless if level. And yes, we get it for free

[Nifft]

We only get one template regardless if level. And yes, we get it for free

Then getting +2 to an ability score is nothing compared to the goodies that the Shadow Template grants.

What level are you going to be starting? (Also what class?)

[ShurikVch]

Which versions of Dark Creature, and of Shadow Creature you use?

Also, if you can take two +1 templates, then I suggest to take Dark Creature (Tome of Magic) and Chameleon Creature: +18 to Hide and +10 to Move Silently checks...

[LaRayna]

Then getting +2 to an ability score is nothing compared to the goodies that the Shadow Template grants.

What level are you going to be starting? (Also what class?)

We're starting at level six and I'm going rogue, avenger, and guild thief or cabinet trickster

[LaRayna]

Though I just realized that the avenger gets hide in plain sight naturally... Would be a bit redundant

[Nifft]

Though I just realized that the avenger gets hide in plain sight naturally... Would be a bit redundant

Yeah that's the problem with picking by theme -- you end up with redundant abilities.

Going against theme might be cool. Be a Bard whose dragonfire inspiration lights up the darkness, but light never touches you.

Being a spy might be cool: Changeling racial sub Rogue 5 / Chameleon 10 / Cabinet Trickster 5


Or you could go deep with the Changeling-specific shadow magic: Changeling racial sub Wizard 5 / Recaster 5 / Escalation Mage 6 / Fatespinner 4

[LaRayna]

Yeah that's the problem with picking by theme -- you end up with redundant abilities.

Going against theme might be cool. Be a Bard whose dragonfire inspiration lights up the darkness, but light never touches you.

Being a spy might be cool: Changeling racial sub Rogue 5 / Chameleon 10 / Cabinet Trickster 5


Or you could go deep with the Changeling-specific shadow magic: Changeling racial sub Wizard 5 / Recaster 5 / Escalation Mage 6 / Fatespinner 4

Idk, neither of those builds really sound fun to me. Not that they're bad builds, just not my thing. Plus you have to be human or doppelganger for chameleon, which wouldn't be allowed. Our dm is strict on requirements

[MaxiDuRaritry]

There's a magic item in Tome of Magic that gives you the Dark template. I wouldn't bother with anything that overlaps much with it, since you can literally just buy the template.

How about Psionic Creature, from the original Psionics Handbook? It's better than Phrenic in a number of ways, not the least of which is because you get to choose your powers, which can be a good mix of utility, offense, defense, and sneaky stuff. Use that to gain powers from the 3.5 XPH, pick some really good powers (and use the attack and defense modes from Hyperconscious), and you're golden.

[Nifft]

Idk, neither of those builds really sound fun to me. Not that they're bad builds, just not my thing. Plus you have to be human or doppelganger for chameleon, which wouldn't be allowed. Our dm is strict on requirements

Oh that's too bad. Chameleon can be a great class for a Changeling.


Cabinet Trickster is also really good, though you need to be level 6 before you get in -- so you can't start as one.

Here's a weird idea: use Warshaper for one or two of your levels. With morphic weapons, you'd never be unarmed -- good for an assassin. You need BAB +4 to enter, so either Rogue 3 or 4 and then Ranger or (Sneak Attack Thug) Fighter 2 or 1.

Or one level of each -- Rogue 3 / SAT Fighter 1 / Ranger 1 / Warshaper 1 >> Cabinet Trickster.

[LaRayna]

There's a magic item in Tome of Magic that gives you the Dark template. I wouldn't bother with anything that overlaps much with it, since you can literally just buy the template.

How about Psionic Creature, from the original Psionics Handbook? It's better than Phrenic in a number of ways, not the least of which is because you get to choose your powers, which can be a good mix of utility, offense, defense, and sneaky stuff. Use that to gain powers from the 3.5 XPH, pick some really good powers (and use the attack and defense modes from Hyperconscious), and you're golden.

What item is that? And a lit if these builds confuse me a bit.

[Nifft]

What item is that?

Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis.

[LaRayna]

Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis.

Nice item but we won't have enough gold for me to buy it. Was thinking about breaking up the avenger by going avenger 7/ unseen seer 3 and getting hunters eye

[Nifft]

Nice item but we won't have enough gold for me to buy it. Was thinking about breaking up the avenger by going avenger 7/ unseen seer 3 and getting hunters eye

Which Avenger (what's the source)?

[Thurbane]

Which Avenger (what's the source)?

Unless it's Pathfinder, maybe this one: The Avenger (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a); HiPS at 8th?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Nice item but we won't have enough gold for me to buy it.You can always get more moneys later on. Buy the lesser collar as soon as you can, then upgrade to the greater version later. In the meantime, use whatever powers you get from the Psionic Creature template to give you more sneakiness.

[LaRayna]

Unless it's Pathfinder, maybe this one: The Avenger (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a); HiPS at 8th?

Yes, that is the one I was referring to

[Nifft]

Unless it's Pathfinder, maybe this one: The Avenger (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a); HiPS at 8th?


Yes, that is the one I was referring to

Huh, I'm not really a fan of the Assassin class. It's good for NPCs but it's a bad fit for team play -- and it's weak in the face of sustained adventuring.


@LaRayna, who else is in your party?

If you're familiar with the tier system, what tier of play are you aiming for?

[LaRayna]

Huh, I'm not really a fan of the Assassin class. It's good for NPCs but it's a bad fit for team play -- and it's weak in the face of sustained adventuring.


@LaRayna, who else is in your party?

If you're familiar with the tier system, what tier of play are you aiming for?

I'm not familiar with it, and I don't know. We're not starting for about a month and no one else really has team coordination on their minds. One person usually plays a ranger. One usually plays a straight rogue. One fluctuates between a healing only cleric, or a beguiler. The other option I had in mind was a changeling master transmogrifist. And also, I'm the only one who builds characters more for combat than role-playing

[The Viscount]

For what it's worth the chameleon prestige class does address changelings under the adaptation section on page 116. Here's the relevant text for reference

If you’re using the EBERRON Campaign Setting, the chameleonprestige class should be available to changeling playercharacters as well as humans and doppelgangers. In this case, the Able Learner feat extends to changelings as well.

For a changeling rogue I cannot recommend the racial substitution levels strongly enough, unless your campaign is filled with traps and you are the only one capable of finding them.

Between Shadow and Dark I would definitely recommend shadow. Fast healing is a hard ability to get. You might also take a look at half-fey, which gives flight, immunity to enchantment, and a smattering of SLAs.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Necropolitan is a template that has no LA (but the way it works is basically +1 LA that's already paid off via LA-buyoff), so if you can count that as +1 LA, the +1 LA evolved undead template goes really, really well with it. Of course, you'll need to spend a few resources on making up for undead weaknesses and no Con bonus to hit points, but you get a ton of immunities AND fast healing.

[LaRayna]

I did some asking and apparently we don't have a tank, so I'll be looking to get a lot of sneak attack damage now. I think I'll go with shadow template for stealth. What are good non template ways to boost hide?

[weckar]

I did some asking and apparently we don't have a tank, so I'll be looking to get a lot of sneak attack damage now. I think I'll go with shadow template for stealth. What are good non template ways to boost hide?

I'm confused - you DON'T have a tank so you're going to build a DPR build that mostly relies on having a flanking buddy?

[LaRayna]

I'm confused - you DON'T have a tank so you're going to build a DPR build that mostly relies on having a flanking buddy?

Yes. Our dm told us play what we wanted and he would set up the challenges accordingly.

[Nifft]

I did some asking and apparently we don't have a tank, so I'll be looking to get a lot of sneak attack damage now. I think I'll go with shadow template for stealth. What are good non template ways to boost hide?

Two levels of Totemist gets you access to some Soulmelds which can boost Hide.

Two levels of Swordsage gets you access to Shadow Hand stances, one of which gives you shadowy concealment when you move -- for you, this means you're invisible while moving even in direct daylight.

Rogue levels; Dex boosters.

Gear -- there's a few armors which boost Hide.

Spells -- chameleon gives you +10 or so.

[LaRayna]

Two levels of Totemist gets you access to some Soulmelds which can boost Hide.

Two levels of Swordsage gets you access to Shadow Hand stances, one of which gives you shadowy concealment when you move -- for you, this means you're invisible while moving even in direct daylight.

Rogue levels; Dex boosters.

Gear -- there's a few armors which boost Hide.

Spells -- chameleon gives you +10 or so.

Not familiar with sword sage, so I'll look at it.

[Nifft]

Not familiar with sword sage, so I'll look at it.

Swordsage also gets Assassin's Stance at level 5, which is +2d6 sneak attack.

[LaRayna]

Swordsage also gets Assassin's Stance at level 5, which is +2d6 sneak attack.

can you explain to me exactly how soulmelds and such work? The book is a little confusing

[LaRayna]

Swordsage also gets Assassin's Stance at level 5, which is +2d6 sneak attack.

Also, assassins stance says swordsage 3...

[Nifft]

can you explain to me exactly how soulmelds and such work? The book is a little confusing

Soulmelds have nothing to do with Swordsage, of course.


Here is a thread with a good explanation: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?321557-The-World-in-One-Feat-A-Shape-Soulmeld-Handbook


The basic idea is that you'd either take levels in a meldshaping class (Incarnate or Totemist, don't take Soulborn), or you could take the Shape Soulmeld feat for one specific soulmeld.

Here's a summary of what different soulmelds do: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?217064-Soulmeld-List-by-Class-and-Slot


A good one for Hide checks might be Kruthik Claws for +4 to Hide and Move Silently, plus if you're a Totemist 2 that also give you 2 claw attacks which can inflict extra acid damage.


One fun build: Totemist 2 / Psion 3 / Soul Manifester 10

You can also do really fun things as a Totemist / Wizard / Soul Caster and the Share Soulmeld feat (allowing your familiar to use your Soulmelds).


EDIT:

Also, assassins stance says swordsage 3...

It is a 3rd level stance.

What level is the Swordsage when she gets access to 3rd level stances?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

One fun build: Totemist 2 / Psion 3 / Soul Manifester 10
Soul manifester is here. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a)

[LaRayna]

So I have a question. Just took a look at Umbral disciple. Their third level shadow concealment ability... Would that work with shadow blend from the shadow creature template to always, even in daylight, be able to hide in plain sight since you're literally cloaked in shadow?

[The Viscount]

I'd say that would do it.

You could also accomplish it by carrying a dark lantern (ToM) with you to constantly be in shadowy illumination.

[Thurbane]

I'd say that would do it.

You could also accomplish it by carrying a dark lantern (ToM) with you to constantly be in shadowy illumination.

Now I want to play a Dark Lantern (Five Nations p.69) with a Dark Lantern (ToM p.156). :smalltongue:

[LaRayna]

Ok, so I pretty much have my character down pat except for feats and ability scores. And note, this character is meant for stealth and the like. Shadow creature changeling with rogue 3/ totemist 2(with kuthrik claws bound to totem Chakra)/ avenger 7/umbral disciple 5(amd with their shadow concealment I can use hide in plain sight anywhere)/unseen-seer 3 or soulcaster 3. I'm guessing more towards unseen seer for more sneak attack damage. I just need feats and good ability scores. We're using a 32 point buy. So if you guys could help me finish it off, I'd appreciate it. Note, while there may be better options, this is the class set up I want to stick with.

[The Viscount]

Darkstalker is a feat you're going to want starting as early as possible so you can hide from all monsters, not just some.

Are you using any alternative class features or racial substitution levels? I'd recommend the changeling rogue racial substitution level at 1, and penetrating strike at 3.

Craven is a good feat to put more focus on sneak attack damage.