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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Other Alternate Feat/Flaw System: Balancing Feat vs Feat



Lanth Sor
2017-12-05, 04:11 PM
Feats are unfortunately too diverse of a category to organize in the homogeneous way we do. As such I propose we reallocate how feats are acquired.
Step one throw out the old system entirely.
Step two rank the current feats, flaws, PF traits, and PF Drawbacks based on mechanical value(ie a tier list) I suggest 10 tiers. Feats and traits would cost their tier and flaws and drawbacks would grant their tier in points.
Step three define feat point gains.

Feat Points

Level3.5PathfinderFighterExpert (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?232639-The-Expert-D-amp-D-3-5-PC-Base-Class)Wizard
1st65+5+5+1
2nd77+10+6+2
3rd1010+12+7+3
4th1112+15+10+4
5th1215+17+11+5
6th1517+20+12+6
7th1620+22+15+7
8th1722+25+16+8
9th2025+27+17+9
10th2127+30+20+10
11th2230+32+21+11
12th2532+35+22+12
13th2635+37+25+13
14th2737+40+26+14
15th3040+42+27+15
16th3142+45+30+16
17th3245+47+31+17
18th3547+50+32+18
19th3650+52+35+19
20th3752+55+36+20


3.5 column reflects base 3.5 feat points that can spent on any feat you meet the requirement for.
Pathfinder column reflects base pathfinder feat points that can be spent on any feat you meet the requirements for.
Fighter/Wizard feat shows how many points a class with the fighter feat progression would gain in addition to the base list, of course the classes would be limited to feats on the class list. Class feats points can be spent with general feat points to grain feats on the class list but not the other way around.
Experts feat list is any feat they meet the requirement for so they are added to the general pool instead of a class pool.



Feat Tier list
10- Most Scaling feats, Epic Spellcasting, Epic Leadership, Redshirt [3.5 Flaw] (https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Red_Shirt_(3.5e_Flaw)), Vow of Poverty* [3.5 Feat, BOED]
9- Leadership [Feat]
8-
7- Roll With It[3.5 Feat, SS]
6- Skill Focus(Use Magic/Psionic Device)
5- Spell Focus(Evocation)[Feat], Improved Toughness[3.5 Feat, PHB2], Toughness[PF Feat] Spell Focus(Any)[Feat], Improved Initiative
4- Warded Against Nature [PF Drawback] (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/drawbacks/warded-against-nature/), Skill Focus(Any)[PF Feat]
3- Toughness, Trapfinder [PF Trait] (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/mummy-s-mask/trap-finder/), Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus, Spell Focus(Divination),
2- Duel Strike[Feat](CW), Shaky[3.5 Flaw] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm), Skill Focus(Any)[3.5 Feat]Reactionary [PF Trait] (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/combat-traits/reactionary/)
1- Precise shot. Any Weapon/armor/shield Proficiency

If (any) is listed then a specific one is listed the specific one is the exception and any is the rule.
CW=Complete Warrior, SS=Savage Species, BOED=Book of Exalted Deeds, PHB2=Player Handbook 2
*In standard game it counts as a flaw, in a mundane/low magic setting it is a feat


PEACH
Please Comment with additions and adjustments to tier list and common classes to add with odd feat progressions.

Lanth Sor
2017-12-05, 04:16 PM
Tier List Consideration

Tier 1 would be unreasonable to take other than fluff or fundamentally required to function.
Tier 2 provides a minor benefit or penalty that is negligible. Pathfinder traits that grant +1 to a skill and make it a class skill.
Tier 3 unlocks new avenues that do not shift character option majorly.
Tier 4 refined specialization that isn't required, but helps and doesn't change gameplay massively just moderate benefits.
Tier 5 impacts your ability to succeed or opens a new option of impressive power.
Tier 6 impact is seen by the entire party but not unbalancing.
Tier 7 provides major quality of life improvement or new option.
Tier 8 provides game changing modification to character or noticeable party change.
Tier 9 alters the game world on a noticeable scale at the local level or causes significant rise in character power.
Tier 10 alter the game world or party balance in major degrees.

noob
2017-12-05, 05:03 PM
I think wow of poverty should be a tier 10 flaw and not a tier 8 flaw.(yes it should count as a flaw: you are really harming yourself a whole lot due in particular to stuff like not getting flight on your own and not having the immunities appropriate to your level(like death ward or mind blank) built in the feat and a lot of difficulties getting them due to having no magic item: you will be at the mercy of the party spellcasters and if you are a spellcaster you will spend more spells than you get cool stuff)
Also spell focus evocation is way less useful than improved initiative in practice and theoretically(the best blasting spells does not have saves).
I think spell focus evocation should go down in tier: failing a save against an evocation spell is not usually a very bad thing and making your opponents fail saves against evocation spells do not change much.
And prcs that needs spell focus evocation are nearly all bad.
While spell focus conjuration is cool because it is a requirement for becoming a conjuration master specialist which is quite a good progression.
In fact due to feat taxes a lot of "low tier" feats are in fact surprisingly more useful than excepted due to them allowing to enter prcs.
(like skill focus(knowledge:religion) for entering divine oracle)

Lanth Sor
2017-12-05, 06:53 PM
I think wow of poverty should be a tier 10 flaw and not a tier 8 flaw.(yes it should count as a flaw: you are really harming yourself a whole lot due in particular to stuff like not getting flight on your own and not having the immunities appropriate to your level(like death ward or mind blank) built in the feat and a lot of difficulties getting them due to having no magic item: you will be at the mercy of the party spellcasters and if you are a spellcaster you will spend more spells than you get cool stuff)

I get where your coming from, but what do you get from the feats. Because it would literally grant exalted feats at the same rate as fighter -5, i have a hard time discounting it all the way to flaw.


Also spell focus evocation is way less useful than improved initiative in practice and theoretically(the best blasting spells does not have saves).
I think spell focus evocation should go down in tier: failing a save against an evocation spell is not usually a very bad thing and making your opponents fail saves against evocation spells do not change much.

Good Point


And prcs that needs spell focus evocation are nearly all bad.
While spell focus conjuration is cool because it is a requirement for becoming a conjuration master specialist which is quite a good progression.
In fact due to feat taxes a lot of "low tier" feats are in fact surprisingly more useful than excepted due to them allowing to enter prcs.
(like skill focus(knowledge:religion) for entering divine oracle)

While I tend to agree, what the feat is a prerequisite for should not reflect in the feat, it should reflect in the thing you gain access to. Namely all it takes is one feat or PRC to tilt the balance, if a class was made that required spell focus divination, and the class was wizard powerful then would be much higher by virtue of a niche thing.


I don't Meta-game so I need a lot of help with the tier list.

Jormengand
2017-12-06, 07:13 AM
There's something to be said for reinventing the wheel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?333370-Feat-Point-System-for-Pathfinder).

As for VoP, I like to assume that everyone who takes VoP unironically has a way to abuse VoP, such as Aya Shadowlight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22192864&postcount=76) who used shadow crafting to ignore VoP's prerequisites and put an enhancement bonus on splash weapons, allowing her to lob +5 liquid embers at people without having to own any "Material posessions", and the exalted bonuses to AC were higher than the armour bonuses she would have got in any armour she was proficient in anyway. Still, it's not an amazing option even when it's a good one.

Lanth Sor
2017-12-06, 01:19 PM
There's something to be said for reinventing the wheel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?333370-Feat-Point-System-for-Pathfinder).

As for VoP, I like to assume that everyone who takes VoP unironically has a way to abuse VoP, such as Aya Shadowlight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22192864&postcount=76) who used shadow crafting to ignore VoP's prerequisites and put an enhancement bonus on splash weapons, allowing her to lob +5 liquid embers at people without having to own any "Material posessions", and the exalted bonuses to AC were higher than the armour bonuses she would have got in any armour she was proficient in anyway. Still, it's not an amazing option even when it's a good one.

When the wheel is made of wood sometimes you have to apply steel. Also never seen that, thanx.

I have updated VOP to 10 with caveat.

Side note Tags are to denote source so people know what were talking about.

Jormengand
2017-12-06, 02:41 PM
Okay, let's get real here:

Leadership is a 10. Epic spellcasting is, quite frankly, not. No-one who isn't a theoretical optimiser is making the spellcraft check to do anything remotely useful any time soon, and the XP cost isn't worth it. Skill focus (literally any skill which is not called "Truespeak") is not worth very much, and UMD/UPD aren't really exceptions - dude, it's worth 3 skill points, and you don't care about a +3 to your skills if you're anything other than a truenamer. If you are, it's still not worth THAT much because it's more feat tax than flashy, useful feat.

If skill focus is terrible, toughness is more terrible. And frankly, I'm almost offended that you put weapon proficiency (All ranged weapons if you're in a real combat) in the same category as Skill focus (Nothing). It's like you just put every feat you could think of in a random place.

Lanth Sor
2017-12-06, 07:01 PM
Okay, let's get real here:

Leadership is a 10. Epic spellcasting is, quite frankly, not. No-one who isn't a theoretical optimiser is making the spellcraft check to do anything remotely useful any time soon, and the XP cost isn't worth it. Skill focus (literally any skill which is not called "Truespeak") is not worth very much, and UMD/UPD aren't really exceptions - dude, it's worth 3 skill points, and you don't care about a +3 to your skills if you're anything other than a truenamer. If you are, it's still not worth THAT much because it's more feat tax than flashy, useful feat.

If skill focus is terrible, toughness is more terrible. And frankly, I'm almost offended that you put weapon proficiency (All ranged weapons if you're in a real combat) in the same category as Skill focus (Nothing). It's like you just put every feat you could think of in a random place.

I agree toughness is a sad joke, and this is definitively a WIP. But breadth is a big thing I'm missing. Weapon Proficiency is kinda a joke as well(looks at Fighter), Skill Focus is of limited value, but compared to what.




Side note I have decided to discontinue project until I have further clarifications complete. Thanx for the input.

Jormengand
2017-12-07, 04:23 AM
To be clear "Weapon proficiency (all ranged weapons if you're in a real combat)" is my joking name for precise shot, because it prevents you from taking a -4 penalty to wield ranged weapons in a real combat, and why you wouldn't want to have it I'm not sure. Second, I don't see that "These evaluations are wrong" is really a personal attack unless you're personally offended by me critiquing your knowledge of game design in a thread about your knowledge of game design, in which case I can't really help you.