"Useless" character concepts

[krugaan]

So someone in another thread suggested that "you really have to try to make a useless character in 5e."

So ... lets try!

The Rules(tm):

- you must provide some kind of flavor here. There has to be a story (orc barbarian decides to be a bard instead after hearing a siren, has low cha and refuses to use weapons)
- the mechanics must fit the story
- the character can't literally be useless (i.e. a single class fighter with 2 str / dex / con or a wizard with no arms and legs).
- you can ignore all the other rules if the character you create is funny anyway (armless, legless wizard is a divinator that the barbarian carries around on his back so he can alter two rolls a day.)
- you get points for builds OR showing how someone else's build is more useful than it appears

[Easy_Lee]

I'll try to keep these pure-classed so it's fair.

TWF Strength-based Purple Dragon Knight with the criminal background (drafted in to PDKs due to his pure heart and "potential"): this character is not so much useless as far behind the curve. TWF does not work well with action surge and competes with second wind for the bonus action.

There are also few feats that a strength-based TWF character can take to differentiate himself. He'll have 19 AC, some DPR, and that's about it.

Fire Dragon Origin Sorcerer with all of the fire spells: the key to playing a dragon sorcerer well is to diversify your spell list. We're not going to do that. We're going to take firebolt, burning hands, scorching ray, fireball, and never replace any of them. We're also going to take Empowered and Quickened, pretty standard for a blaster.

Our character is a pyromaniac, full stop. And any time enemies are immune to fire, he's useless and can't do anything about it. Now let's put the nail in the coffin: the antagonists in the campaign are fire giants, fire elementals, and red dragons.

[Aett_Thorn]

Paladin 1/Monk X

Wear heavy armor and fight unarmed anyways. Dump Wis and go Open Hand Monk so that your subclass abilities almost never work.

[sir_argo]

Not in D&D, but a game system where dwarves live almost exclusively underground. I made an NPC dwarf that was claustrophobic. He had to leave his clan and live above ground and most of his dwarven abilities only work underground.

The same theme could be used for certain D&D classes. Imagine an half-elf that got sick of living in the city, went out into the woods and became a druid. Got to a decent level but then started really getting tired of being in the woods. He moved back to the city and has no interest in nature.

[Bahamut7]

http://elgrandepics.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Minotaur-Bard1.jpg

[krugaan]

http://elgrandepics.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Minotaur-Bard1.jpg

Now I'm imagining a minotaur bardbarian whose weapon is a huge bell.

And uses only sound spells.

Although any flavor of monk-barian is exceptionally bad.

[Kane0]

Meet Squeeb.

Squeeb is a Kobold bard. He was raised in a normal kobold den and led by a typical tyrannical dragon, one that took a liking to Squeeb and used him for entertainment. Squeeb, ever fearful of a toothy demise, learned quickly and kept his master amused despite his poor kobold mental capacity. At least he did until roaming adventurers found the warrens and wiped out the kobold population as well as the dragon that Squeeb had been underfoot. The years of jestering for the dragon had developed some severe Stockholm Syndrome in Squeeb (which is pretty normal for kobolds serving dragons when you think about it) and so after a bit of begging for his life attached himself to one of his 'saviors', where he remains to this day despite all efforts to dispose of him.

Here is Squeeb statistically speaking:
Lore Bard 1-20, Entertainer background
Standard array Str 11 Dex 17 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8
Skills/Expertise: Cha skills to counteract his low Cha bonus, then Dex/Wis skills
Preferred/ spells: Heals (Healing Word, Cure Wounds, Lesser Restoration), Buffs (Bless, Aid, Invisibility), Utility (Sleep, Silence, Rituals)
Preferred ASIs: Cha increases, one Dex/Str increase, maybe Actor and Lucky feats.

Squeeb is a coward and will use his Grovel racial ability at the first sign of trouble, followed up by Bardic inspiration on the party member he has attached himself to. He will cower behind his chosen party member at all times unless it would be hazardous to do so, in which case he likes to hide in the dark (or at least the shade). Squeeb's musical talent isn't very impressive, but at least he can distract people if commanded to do so. He's also not a terrible healer, and his spells are helpful to his master even if they aren't effective against anyone hostile to him.

TL;DR Squeeb is a low Cha buff & heal bot, abusing abilities and spells that don't rely on his rolls or DC. Great support with moderately good AC & HP but can't do much himself.

[Unoriginal]

Squeeb seems pretty useful, though.

[krugaan]

Meet Squeeb.

Squeeb is a Kobold bard. He was raised in a normal kobold den and led by a typical tyrannical dragon, one that took a liking to Squeeb and used him for entertainment. Squeeb, ever fearful of a toothy demise, learned quickly and kept his master amused despite his poor kobold mental capacity. At least he did until roaming adventurers found the warrens and wiped out the kobold population as well as the dragon that Squeeb had been underfoot. The years of jestering for the dragon had developed some severe Stockholm Syndrome in Squeeb (which is pretty normal for kobolds serving dragons when you think about it) and so after a bit of begging for his life attached himself to one of his 'saviors', where he remains to this day despite all efforts to dispose of him.

Here is Squeeb statistically speaking:
Lore Bard 1-20, Entertainer background
Standard array Str 11 Dex 17 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8
Skills/Expertise: Cha skills to counteract his low Cha bonus, then Dex/Wis skills
Preferred/ spells: Heals (Healing Word, Cure Wounds, Lesser Restoration), Buffs (Bless, Aid, Invisibility), Utility (Sleep, Silence, Rituals)
Preferred ASIs: Cha increases, one Dex/Str increase, maybe Actor and Lucky feats.

Squeeb is a coward and will use his Grovel racial ability at the first sign of trouble, followed up by Bardic inspiration on the party member he has attached himself to. He will cower behind his chosen party member at all times unless it would be hazardous to do so, in which case he likes to hide in the dark (or at least the shade). Squeeb's musical talent isn't very impressive, but at least he can distract people if commanded to do so. He's also not a terrible healer, and his spells are helpful to his master even if they aren't effective against anyone hostile to him.

TL;DR Squeeb is a low Cha buff & heal bot, abusing abilities and spells that don't rely on his rolls or DC. Great support with moderately good AC & HP but can't do much himself.

Hah, anytime I hear kobold bard, I immediate think of Deekin from Neverwinter Nights. And actually, this might be a decent description of his role in the game, lol.

[Kane0]

Indeed, he was the inspiration. Turns out pretty well in a balanced party, especially if you have two or more heavy hitters you can support.

[sithlordnergal]

I'll try to keep these pure-classed so it's fair.

TWF Strength-based Purple Dragon Knight with the criminal background (drafted in to PDKs due to his pure heart and "potential"): this character is not so much useless as far behind the curve. TWF does not work well with action surge and competes with second wind for the bonus action.

There are also few feats that a strength-based TWF character can take to differentiate himself. He'll have 19 AC, some DPR, and that's about it.

Fire Dragon Origin Sorcerer with all of the fire spells: the key to playing a dragon sorcerer well is to diversify your spell list. We're not going to do that. We're going to take firebolt, burning hands, scorching ray, fireball, and never replace any of them. We're also going to take Empowered and Quickened, pretty standard for a blaster.

Our character is a pyromaniac, full stop. And any time enemies are immune to fire, he's useless and can't do anything about it. Now let's put the nail in the coffin: the antagonists in the campaign are fire giants, fire elementals, and red dragons.

O-O So, I actually know someone who made the pyromancer build. Only instead of a Sorcerer, he went Evoker Wizard and woukd only take fire spells. It was really fun for Storm King's Thunder...until we reached the Fire Giant section. Then he was useless.

[Kane0]

He didn't have Elemental Adept by that point?

[Hyde]

He didn't have Elemental Adept by that point?

(Elemental adept does nothing against immunity, sadly)

[krugaan]

(Elemental adept does nothing against immunity, sadly)

Huh, I didn't realize that.

[Bahamut7]

Now I'm imagining a minotaur bardbarian whose weapon is a huge bell.

And uses only sound spells.

Although any flavor of monk-barian is exceptionally bad.

Glad that could inspire you.

[mgshamster]

http://elgrandepics.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Minotaur-Bard1.jpg

I... Am... The... MINOTARD!

(Cause it's a mix of minotaur and bard! :elan:)

[mgshamster]

I'll try to keep these pure-classed so it's fair.

TWF Strength-based Purple Dragon Knight
Fire Dragon Origin Sorcerer with all of the fire spells:

... I have both of those Characters. :(

However, they do fairly decent in game.

(Exception: my strength based twf is a champ, not a pdk)

[krugaan]

I... Am... The... MINOTARD!

(Cause it's a mix of minotaur and bard! :elan:)

Ouch.

Someone fluff a barbarimonk, my creative juices are not flowing atm.

Monkbarian? Monkian.

Hmmm.

[The Shadowdove]

Most anime and video game knockoffs, as players are so horrible at trying to capture their fangasm while trying to be as Chuck Norris from level 1 that it makes the character effectively useless.

[mgshamster]

Ouch.

Someone fluff a barbarimonk, my creative juices are not flowing atm.

Monkbarian? Monkian.

Hmmm.

Bonk. The barbarian monk is just totally Bonkers.

[krugaan]

Bonk. The barbarian monk is just totally Bonkers.

Goddamnit, I should have thought of that.

But really, Bonkers is barbarian / monk / fighter.

ZING.

How about this: the undecided major.

Keeps dipping in classes before finally settling on something.

I'm thinking son of a rich noble, gets pushed into the clergy (cleric) or something, but rebels and becomes a thug or thief for awhile (rogue). After months of stealing and brawling, get bailed out and joins a monastery (monk). The abbot (?) teaches him how to kung fu fight, but then due to him being crazy and wanting to blow up the world, the son flees and goes back home, where he figures out that he wants to fight bad guys instead of be an indecisive loser (paladin).

[Caelic]

Nebb Neblinson, The Lord of Cantrips.

Young Nebb Neblinson was a bright lad, interested in everything. He was particularly fascinated by magic. And so it was that Neblin sought to study the magical arts under a wizard of repute.

However, as he studied, Nebb became increasingly fascinated with cantrips. "Why," he pondered to himself, "Is it that cantrips, and only cantrips, do not tax a spellcaster's resources? Why can they be invoked over and over again? Surely, if we could unlock that secret, we could figure out how to apply it to spells of greater power!"

And so, Nebb devoted himself exclusively to the study of cantrips. He has not yet unlocked the essential secrets he seeks, but he sure does know a heck of a lot of cantrips at this point.

Forest Gnome Wizard (Illusionist) 4/Arcana Cleric 4/Bard 4/Druid 4/Celestial Warlock 3 (Pact of the Tome)/Sorcerer 1

This build is, of course, designed to maximize cantrips known. By the time he reaches the peak of his power at level 20, Nebb knows:

1. Minor Illusion
2. 3 Bard cantrips
3. 4 Cleric cantrips
4. 2 Wizard cantrips (known as cleric cantrips)
5. 3 Druid cantrips
6. 4 Sorcerer cantrips
7. 2 Warlock cantrips
8. Light and Sacred Flame (as Warlock cantrips)
9. 3 cantrips from any class's spell list
10. 5 Wizard cantrips (4 base plus one from Master Illusionist)

...for a grand total of 29 cantrips known, not including any gained from feats! Of course, he also has the spell slots of a 17th level caster with which to power his myriad of first and second level spells, but who cares? Cantrips are where the REAL power is, baby.

[krugaan]

Nebb Neblinson, The Lord of Cantrips.

Young Nebb Neblinson was a bright lad, interested in everything. He was particularly fascinated by magic. And so it was that Neblin sought to study the magical arts under a wizard of repute.

However, as he studied, Nebb became increasingly fascinated with cantrips. "Why," he pondered to himself, "Is it that cantrips, and only cantrips, do not tax a spellcaster's resources? Why can they be invoked over and over again? Surely, if we could unlock that secret, we could figure out how to apply it to spells of greater power!"

And so, Nebb devoted himself exclusively to the study of cantrips. He has not yet unlocked the essential secrets he seeks, but he sure does know a heck of a lot of cantrips at this point.

Forest Gnome Wizard (Illusionist) 4/Arcana Cleric 4/Bard 4/Druid 4/Celestial Warlock 3 (Pact of the Tome)/Sorcerer 1

This build is, of course, designed to maximize cantrips known. By the time he reaches the peak of his power at level 20, Nebb knows:

1. Minor Illusion
2. 3 Bard cantrips
3. 4 Cleric cantrips
4. 2 Wizard cantrips (known as cleric cantrips)
5. 3 Druid cantrips
6. 4 Sorcerer cantrips
7. 2 Warlock cantrips
8. Light and Sacred Flame (as Warlock cantrips)
9. 3 cantrips from any class's spell list
10. 5 Wizard cantrips (4 base plus one from Master Illusionist)

...for a grand total of 29 cantrips known, not including any gained from feats! Of course, he also has the spell slots of a 17th level caster with which to power his myriad of first and second level spells, but who cares? Cantrips are where the REAL power is, baby.

Hah, he's also have pretty rootin' tootin stats too, with full asi's, essentially.

... are there even 29 total cantrips?

[Caelic]

Hah, he's also have pretty rootin' tootin stats too, with full asi's, essentially.

Naturally! Think of the number of spellcasting stats he needs to pump up!


... are there even 29 total cantrips?

By my quick-count, there are 27 in the PHB. But...gah! There are ten more in Xanathar's, and four more in SCAG! Nebb is not yet the master of all cantrips. MUST...HAVE...MORE...CANTRIPS!

[Personification]

It wasn't my build and I'm pretty sure not 5E, but I know someone who made an abnormally tall and clumsy Halfling and took away Halfling related stealth type bonuses. He was named Bigsy Smalls. I'm pretty sure that this wouldn't work as well (poorly?) in 5E, but it is still funny.

[sithlordnergal]

Say hello to Bagook the Kobold Beserker Barbarian

Bagook's only claims to fame are his ability to Grovel, Cower, and Beg, and his ability to ignore the disadvantage imposed by using a Heavy Weapon and his Sunlight Sensitivity. So, let us start with abilities.

Str: 13
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 9

Thanks to Kobolds having a -2 strength, Bagook has to put a 15 in in his strength to have a nice 13. Also, despite being Small he insists on wielding a Greataxe, which is a Heavy Weapon. This instantly imposes disadvantage on all his attack rolls. Luckily, he can choose to attack recklessly or use pack tactics. So those disadvantages even out.

Next, we have a lovely Frenzy Barbarian, with all the pros and cons it brings. And you know how rage filled little Bagook is. If he enters a Rage, he'll likely enter a Frenzy. After all, exhaustion is no big deal for a mighty Kobold.

Finally, he could never use armor. He must be strong, like a true Barbarian, and wear no armor at all!! Giving him a lovely AC of 14.

Strengths: He can use Heavy Weapons as a Small creature by finding multiple ways to cancel out the disadvantage, he can Cower, Grovel, and Beg to give his companions a boost, much to his shame, he is a relativly tanky Kobold since all Barbarians are inherently tanky.

Weaknesses: only has a +1 mod to strength, only has a +2 con mod, daylight sensitivity and using heavy weapons automatically impose disadvantage, if he uses reckless attack the enemies have advantage while he can only cancel out his disadvantage, frenzy will constantly leave him exhausted, he will have low hp and low ac.

While he can hit something, Bagook is not very good at it...at all. While the Barbarian is a tanky class, the +2 con mod will hurt in the long run. Even with his rage ability, it isn't enough to bring Bagook up to even a regular level of competency.

[Caelic]

Not useless, but:

NOBB NOSEFINGER, WARLOCK EXTRAORDINAIRE

You've heard the saying "There's a village somewhere missing its idiot?" Yeah, that's Nobb. I won't say he's dumb, but he thinks "farm" is spelled "E-I-E-I-O." One day, Nobb went wandering into the woods while pondering one of his favorite philosophical questions: "How many flavors of porridge are there?"

While pondering, he got lost. This was not an uncommon occurrence; Nobb frequently got lost on the way to or from the privy.

Deep in the forest, he stumbled across a shrine made of bones. In the center of the shrine, surrounded by a ring of charred skulls, their bony features seeming contorted in unspeakable horror, was a large red gem, glowing with a sinister dark light that pulsated like blood through the black heart of a demon lord.

Nobb thought it looked like candy, so he licked it.

The shadows swirled and coalesced into a towering form of fire and darkness. It glared down at Nobb with eyes burning with unholy malevolence, and in a voice like tearing metal, spoke:

"DID...YOU...JUST...LICK ME!?"

Long story short: Bapalmodezub, the Evil Lord of Evilness, offered Nobb a pact: his immortal soul in exchange for a small sack of peanuts. Nobb, however, was far too smart for this: he demanded TWO small sacks of peanuts.

The upswing of this? Nobb is now a Pact of the Chain warlock with an Imp familiar named Irving. Irving spends his days trying to explain things to his master--complex concepts, like "Shoes are for feet, gloves are for hands." "The other end of the horse is forward." Things like that.

He's beginning to have regrets about the whole arrangement, and is frankly starting to get nostalgic for the Pits of Sulfurous Torment.

[Gritmonger]

Human Lore Bard who only takes spells that could plausibly be interpreted as just really good talking. Including any bonus spells and cantrips.

Actually played this - I was useless around undead...

[Easy_Lee]

... I have both of those Characters. :(

However, they do fairly decent in game.

(Exception: my strength based twf is a champ, not a pdk)

Sorry. Champ is better than PDK, though. The crits and remarkable athlete are generally useful. Better characters exist, but that's okay.

PDK is a cool concept but it's too difficult to make it work mechanically. Inspiring Leader and GWM only go so far.

[Bahamut7]

Naturally! Think of the number of spellcasting stats he needs to pump up!



By my quick-count, there are 27 in the PHB. But...gah! There are ten more in Xanathar's, and four more in SCAG! Nebb is not yet the master of all cantrips. MUST...HAVE...MORE...CANTRIPS!

Could give him the Magic Initiative feat and make him a Tome Warlock to boost his cantrips by 5 with that. Plus he could ask the DM to convert all his spell slots into cantrips.

[Hyde]

Could give him the Magic Initiative feat and make him a Tome Warlock to boost his cantrips by 5 with that. Plus he could ask the DM to convert all his spell slots into cantrips.

Tome Warlock has been noted. If you had a permissive DM that would let you take magic initiate multiple times, you could go variant human instead and pick up a net +9 cantrips, leaving us three short.

[SpamCreateWater]

Current character is a multiclass Wizard / Sorcerer / Cleric. Aiming for 4 levels of each and then swapping out to something else.

Still going strong at level 7. The other PCs have noticed nothing. Amusingly, I believe one or two suspect me of shenanigans - but not for being too weak :smallconfused: This is in a party with single classed a Cleric and Sorcerer.


Edit: Backstory.
I used every element of my background and starting gear (Cleric) to create a story. Character is a terrible conman (as in, bad at his job) but had a good friend that helped him out. Was telling porkies in a bar, trying to convince some people he was a High Priest of some obscure religion (that didn't exist) when a Noble came up and asked to hear more. One thing led to another - character panics in social situations sometimes - and he found himself as a spiritual and financial advisor to this noble. He was good with money, though, so that kept the questions away.
Friend got annoyed, framed him for murder of a Wizard. My guy panics as he's found over the body of said Wizard with staff and book in hand. He runs. Eventually, after a tonne of mishaps, finds himself hired for his accounting ability with a group of misfits.

[Knaight]

The Scholar-Monk
The concept here is of a monk, the sort who's a scribe and scholar at a religious monastery. This particular monk is a scribe and scholar of magic, as well as being effectively a sort of priest due to the religious ties; all in all a fairly grounded, normal character.

Then you just take the single most intuitive approach if you don't know the game for their mechanics. Solid wisdom, solid intelligence (they're a monk and a scholar after all), pretty bad physical stats including constitution (they're a scribe, not a field worker), and you alternate levels between Cleric and Wizard. At level 1 you're a level 1 cleric with bad stats for a cleric. At level 2, you're a Cleric 1/Wizard 1, which is where that multiclass is at its strongest. From level 3 onwards you are always at least one spell level behind, with a gap that just keeps growing. At level 17, where a single class character would have level 9 spells, you're rocking Cleric 9/Wizard 8, having just managed 5th level spells.

Magic is powerful enough for this to still not be completely useless, but it falls way behind the power curve.

[FabulousFizban]

squeeb sounds rad. i would love to RP squeeb

[Theodoxus]

Tiny Jim, the halfling barbarian!

Tiny Jim was the runt of the halfling litter. He never got any respect, and that made him mad and smashy. But he wasn't gonna be like the rest of his bigger, stronger littermates, oh no, he'll show them! Tiny Jim grabbed a maul from a local dwarven construction crew, and walked around the campsite quite proud of himself.

He named his maul "Smashy McSmashyface" and proceeded to miss all the things.

By the time Tiny Jim got to second level barbarian, he got quite good at taking dirt naps. He learned if he simply recklessly attacked, Smashy could actually hit quite often! But... he couldn't nimbly dodge out of the way of incoming attacks anymore... But his best friend Thorngold Aldercheese, the life cleric of Yondalla, always made sure Tiny Jim woke from his dirt nap, just in time to kill steal from Teribad Justicefist, the ignoble paladin of Ilmater who punched people to unconsciousness.

[krugaan]

The Scholar-Monk
The concept here is of a monk, the sort who's a scribe and scholar at a religious monastery. This particular monk is a scribe and scholar of magic, as well as being effectively a sort of priest due to the religious ties; all in all a fairly grounded, normal character.

Then you just take the single most intuitive approach if you don't know the game for their mechanics. Solid wisdom, solid intelligence (they're a monk and a scholar after all), pretty bad physical stats including constitution (they're a scribe, not a field worker), and you alternate levels between Cleric and Wizard. At level 1 you're a level 1 cleric with bad stats for a cleric. At level 2, you're a Cleric 1/Wizard 1, which is where that multiclass is at its strongest. From level 3 onwards you are always at least one spell level behind, with a gap that just keeps growing. At level 17, where a single class character would have level 9 spells, you're rocking Cleric 9/Wizard 8, having just managed 5th level spells.

Magic is powerful enough for this to still not be completely useless, but it falls way behind the power curve.

I'm not saying you're a nerd, but there's something .. thematically pure about a nerd joining a DnD campaign and making an accountant / non combat character, lol.

It's like if someone walked into a telephone booth and came out as Clark Kent instead of Superman.

[krugaan]

He named his maul "Smashy McSmashyface" and proceeded to miss all the things.


Obviously, he's aiming at the wrong target. He's a Halfling! He should have named his maul "Joe McToeFoe" or "Ham Matuthanee".

"An arrow to the knee? You got off *lucky*."

[opaopajr]

It was probably me who said it. And I stand by it. It takes a lot of effort to be worthless in 5e. One of my first posts here was taking a DEX 6 WIS 18 character and making a Rogue.

That sais, it's theoretically possible to do so if you allow random rolling and get a perfect spread of 1s, thus 3 in every stat. But we're looking at nadir level ineptitude. This game would be far more challenging with Point Buy as a limiter.

But let me play an alternate game: trying to make viable a perfect straight 3s. Here, I'll make it harder and only work off Basic 5e.

Wimple the Wimpy Nun
Lv 1 Human Life Cleric Acolyte
PB: 2. HD: 1d8. HP: 5.
AC: 18. Spd: 30 (20 in armor)

STR 4, DEX 4, CON 4, INT 4, WIS 4, CHA 4

Skill: History -1, Insight -1, Persuasion -1, Religion -1.
Tools: --
Language: Common +3 extra

Cantrips: 3. Sp Atk: -1. Sp DC: 7.
Sp Slots: 2/ . Sp Prep: 1. Focus: Yes. Rituals: Yes.

Cantrips: Guidance, Light, Resistance (gotta run back to her if you wanna another Resistance)
Prep Spells: (Domain - Bless, Cure Wounds) either Detect Magic (during exploration, to work off rituals,) or Healing Word.

Bkrd Feature: Shelter from the Faithful.

Armor:
Chain Mail - AC 16 (str 13 or -10 Speed)
Shield - AC +2

Weapon:
Mace - atk -1, dmg 1d6 -3
Lt Xbow - atk -1, dmg 1d8 -3

Basically becomes a font for support, often using Bless, Guidance, Resistance, Healing Word, or Detect Magic. She has AC 18, because 20 Speed doesn't hurt her much as she's not going into the forefront of battle. And after casting any Concentration spells she should be Dodging and seeking Cover for another +2 or +5 AC (and DEX save). Oh, and life domain starts by adding +3 to each her heal spells, immediately wiping out the stat penalty.

It's an actual healbot (and linguist! and bless fountain!) in the shape of a wimpy nun. That's nadir Basic 5e Cleric. And yet AC 18, AC 20 or 23 with cover, and should be dodging to induce disadvantage on attacks. I've seen much worse in other RPGs.

[krugaan]

It was probably me who said it. And I stand by it. It takes a lot of effort to be worthless in 5e. One of my first posts here was taking a DEX 6 WIS 18 character and making a Rogue.

That sais, it's theoretically possible to do so if you allow random rolling and get a perfect spread of 1s, thus 3 in every stat. But we're looking at nadir level ineptitude. This game would be far more challenging with Point Buy as a limiter.

But let me play an alternate game: trying to make viable a perfect straight 3s. Here, I'll make it harder and only work off Basic 5e.

Wimple the Wimpy Nun
Lv 1 Human Life Cleric Acolyte
PB: 2. HD: 1d8. HP: 5.
AC: 18. Spd: 30 (20 in armor)

STR 4, DEX 4, CON 4, INT 4, WIS 4, CHA 4

Skill: History -1, Insight -1, Persuasion -1, Religion -1.
Tools: --
Language: Common +3 extra

Cantrips: 3. Sp Atk: -1. Sp DC: 7.
Sp Slots: 2/ . Sp Prep: 1. Focus: Yes. Rituals: Yes.

Cantrips: Guidance, Light, Resistance (gotta run back to her if you wanna another Resistance)
Prep Spells: (Domain - Bless, Cure Wounds) either Detect Magic (during exploration, to work off rituals,) or Healing Word.

Bkrd Feature: Shelter from the Faithful.

Armor:
Chain Mail - AC 16 (str 13 or -10 Speed)
Shield - AC +2

Weapon:
Mace - atk -1, dmg 1d6 -3
Lt Xbow - atk -1, dmg 1d8 -3

Basically becomes a font for support, often using Bless, Guidance, Resistance, Healing Word, or Detect Magic. She has AC 18, because 20 Speed doesn't hurt her much as she's not going into the forefront of battle. And after casting any Concentration spells she should be Dodging and seeking Cover for another +2 or +5 AC (and DEX save). Oh, and life domain starts by adding +3 to each her heal spells, immediately wiping out the stat penalty.

It's an actual healbot (and linguist! and bless fountain!) in the shape of a wimpy nun. That's nadir Basic 5e Cleric. And yet AC 18, AC 20 or 23 with cover, and should be dodging to induce disadvantage on attacks. I've seen much worse in other RPGs.

Its essentially the same as a Treatmonks mage guide, except for buffs.

Avoid anything with saves, attack rolls, or modifiers.

I'm wondering if moon druid would be even better for an extremely low stat roll.

[opaopajr]

Rogue can easily do the same due to Expertise.

If you're really good, you trade up for Background Languages, being a translator liaison, and then be an info broker with Thieves' Cant to the thieves guilds. All you need is Expertise Persuasion and Deception, (you assume Perception is not needed when you are being paid as an interpreter).

What is a challenge is Basic 5e Nadir Fighter.

[opaopajr]

Here's an attempt at "viable" Basic 5e Nadir Fighter.

Lance Driver, the Cheapest Transporter
Lv 1 Human Champion Fighter Folk Hero
PB: 2. HD: 1d10. HP: 7.
Spd: 30. AC: 18.

STR 4, DEX 4, CON 4, INT 4, WIS 4, CHA 4

Skills: Animal Handling -1, Insight -1, Perception -1, Survival -1.
Tools: Artisan Tools, Vehicles (Land)
Language: Common +1 Extra

Fighting Style: Protection
Second Wind: 1d10 +Fighter lvl

Bkrd: Rustic Hospitality

Armor:
Chain Mail - AC 16 (str 13 or -10 spd)
Shield - AC +2

Weapon:
Lance - atk -1, dmg 1d12-3
Lt. Xbow - atk -1, dmg 1d8-3

Bio: Famous for being the cheapest way to get in and out of hostile territory. Rides a cart or carriage, which allows him to Protect his charge with his shield while in danger. Rustic Hospitality can sometimes help him briefly hide his charge before setting off out of danger.

Skill focus so that you can ASI wisdom if you so desire, (or go for something else as you wish). Armor Speed penalty is irrelevant while riding. AC is good, Dodge is a good action while driving. Can easily run caltrops or flaming oil as needed during chases. Protection is for clients. Knows the common folk for some help. Not good, but good enough, and thus a cheap driver to hire.

[toapat]

At level 17, where a single class character would have level 9 spells, you're rocking Cleric 9/Wizard 8, having just managed 5th level spells.

Magic is powerful enough for this to still not be completely useless, but it falls way behind the power curve.

unless your DM is a vile monster and sandbagging you with less broken but less fair multiclass rules, you still get cleric lvl9 access at total lvl 17 because of how the "preparing spells" clause is laughably non-functional. Sure you dont get any 9th level wizard spells, but youre still effectively a full power cleric with only have your spells prepared from cleric

[Longman]

Chip Shoulder, Halfling duelist.

I've gone for a halfling fighter whose religion is all about the coming of a halfling champion that will stand up to the other races and beat them in individual combat using huge weapons. He's studied hard and worked on his calm mind and his public speaking at the expense of his physical attributes. It's all about the cool sililoquy with this guy.

Made using OrcPub.
Halfling Lightfoot.
Acolyte
Str 12
Dex 10
Con 10
Int 13
Wis 15
Cha 15

Fighter (Duelist). Carries several heavy two-handed weapons and a longbow, because he wants to be beat larger races using over sized weaponry, and a longbow. Can't use his duelist skills due to weapon choice and gets disadvantage due to size.

Skills - Athletics, History, Insight and Religion

AC 11 (leather).

[opaopajr]

unless your DM is a vile monster and sandbagging you with less broken but less fair multiclass rules, you still get cleric lvl9 access at total lvl 17 because of how the "preparing spells" clause is laughably non-functional. Sure you dont get any 9th level wizard spells, but youre still effectively a full power cleric with only have your spells prepared from cleric

I do not see how the Multiclassing Rules on 'Spells Known or Prepared' are superceded by the laughingly non-functional "prepared spells" clause.

Multiclassing
Spells Known and Prepared

You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.

You determine slots after. The Ranger 4/Wizard 3 example reinforces this in both the Multiclassing 'Spells Known and Prepared' section and in the Multiclassing 'Spell Slots' section. Deliberately reading the order backwards, and in isolation of the given example, seem wrong. A GM abiding by the PHB restriction does not seem monstrous but working as intended and sensible.

[mgshamster]

Regarding the spell slot and prepared spells discussion, I'm thoroughly confused about any of the points made here.

As far as I can tell, that Cleric 9/Wizard 8 character still has 9th level spell slots, they just only have access to 5th levels spells. They can still use their spell slots to upcast any spells they do have - which is quite a few. I don't see that as an unviable character. May not be the top dog in the fight, but it's certainly playable and will still be useful to a party.

So far, the only real thing I see as unviable is the halfling fighter who took dueling and uses heavy weapons. That's a character that deliberately took options that don't interact together.

[opaopajr]

I agree with you, the Cleric can prepare up to 5th lvl spells, and can upcast them to the 9th lvl slot.

[opaopajr]

Disadvantage is roughly -4. And given Fighters are proficient in all armor, shields, simple and martial weapons, it still gets Proficiency Bonus. Doing a Wizard with delusions of being a Polearm Fighter would be worse.

The worst would be a Halfling (or other Small race) Wizard in Padded armor, using heavy two-handed weapons, and heavy negative Ability mods. The lack of armor proficiency gives disadvantage on STR or DEX Attacks, Saves, and Ability checks, can't cast spells. Padded gives lowest AC and Stealth disadvantage. Lack of weapon prof. just denies PB (+2) to hit. Heavy gives disadv to hit. Negative ability mods do the rest.

Wizard that can't cast spells, can't stealth w/o disadv., can't STR or DEX attack, save or ability check w/o disadv, doesn't get PB bonus with weapon, has disadv. from heavy to hit, and negative mods to ruin whatever else. Then you'd have to avoid Skills which Ability could benefit from racial bonuses, so they could only have -2 on 4 skills and -4 on everything else.

It takes effort, doesn' it? :smallsmile:

[krugaan]

Disadvantage is roughly -4. And given Fighters are proficient in all armor, shields, simple and martial weapons, it still gets Proficiency Bonus. Doing a Wizard with delusions of being a Polearm Fighter would be worse.

The worst would be a Halfling (or other Small race) Wizard in Padded armor, using heavy two-handed weapons, and heavy negative Ability mods. The lack of armor proficiency gives disadvantage on STR or DEX Attacks, Saves, and Ability checks, can't cast spells. Padded gives lowest AC and Stealth disadvantage. Lack of weapon prof. just denies PB (+2) to hit. Heavy gives disadv to hit. Negative ability mods do the rest.

Wizard that can't cast spells, can't stealth w/o disadv., can't STR or DEX attack, save or ability check w/o disadv, doesn't get PB bonus with weapon, has disadv. from heavy to hit, and negative mods to ruin whatever else. Then you'd have to avoid Skills which Ability could benefit from racial bonuses, so they could only have -2 on 4 skills and -4 on everything else.

It takes effort, doesn' it? :smallsmile:

Lol, but that's not plausible in the slightest. Unless...

/looksexpectantly

Is the wizard a diviner? Then we can lop off his arms and legs...

edit: that's /looks expectantly, not ... you know. the other thing.

[opaopajr]

Tragically the best you can do is Stout Halfling, because CON has no skills, however DEX has 3. Thus you are destroyed by having only -3 on the three DEX skills. Ruined I say, ruined!

[toapat]

Regarding the spell slot and prepared spells discussion, I'm thoroughly confused about any of the points made here.

As far as I can tell, that Cleric 9/Wizard 8 character still has 9th level spell slots, they just only have access to 5th levels spells. They can still use their spell slots to upcast any spells they do have - which is quite a few. I don't see that as an unviable character. May not be the top dog in the fight, but it's certainly playable and will still be useful to a party.

1: Clerics, paladins, and Druids know all class spells of all levels at the level they acquire spell casting.

2: the problem with the multiclassing rules is that they do not actually enforce their own sequential application/ because of how each Spells Prepared caster is actually worded in their function of preparing spells, the multiclass Spell Slots rule actually applies despite the Multiclass spells known and Prepared description because what you can prepare is based on what is your highest highest spell slots, which are not determined by your class level.

The rule says this:


You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a ranger 4/wizard 3, for example, you know three 1st-level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class. As 3rd-level wizard, you know three wizard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten wizard spells, two of which (the two you gained when you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can be 2nd-level spells.

it should say this


You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class of which no other classes contribute their caster level to. If you are a ranger 4/wizard 3, for example, you know three 1st-level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class. As 3rd-level wizard, you know three wizard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten wizard spells, two of which (the two you gained when you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can be 2nd-level spells.

[krugaan]

1: Clerics, paladins, and Druids know all class spells of all levels at the level they acquire spell casting.

2: the problem with the multiclassing rules is that they do not actually enforce their own sequential application/ because of how each Spells Prepared caster is actually worded in their function of preparing spells, the multiclass Spell Slots rule actually applies despite the Multiclass spells known and Prepared description because what you can prepare is based on what is your highest highest spell slots, which are not determined by your class level.


I don't see the disconnect here:

I'm a cleric 9 / druid 9:

By the RAW, I prepare spells as if i was a single class caster. In PHB:

"You prepare the list of cleric spells that are available blah blah ... The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots."

9th level cleric doesn't have 9th level slots, ergo i cannot prepare any 9th level spells.

[GreyBlack]

Goddamnit, I should have thought of that.

But really, Bonkers is barbarian / monk / fighter.

ZING.

How about this: the undecided major.

Keeps dipping in classes before finally settling on something.

I'm thinking son of a rich noble, gets pushed into the clergy (cleric) or something, but rebels and becomes a thug or thief for awhile (rogue). After months of stealing and brawling, get bailed out and joins a monastery (monk). The abbot (?) teaches him how to kung fu fight, but then due to him being crazy and wanting to blow up the world, the son flees and goes back home, where he figures out that he wants to fight bad guys instead of be an indecisive loser (paladin).

Soo.... Danny Rand from Iron Fist?

[krugaan]

Soo.... Danny Rand from Iron Fist?

Or, you know. Batman. It's pretty funny that the backstories are basically the same, but Batman is awesome and Iron Fist was terrible.

[SpamCreateWater]

I don't see the disconnect here:

I'm a cleric 9 / druid 9:

By the RAW, I prepare spells as if i was a single class caster. In PHB:

"You prepare the list of cleric spells that are available blah blah ... The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots."

9th level cleric doesn't have 9th level slots, ergo i cannot prepare any 9th level spells.

I think the disconnect comes in with that last part you quoted. Because you have the spells slots of an 18th level caster from the multiclass table. 18th level gives you a 9th level spell slot.

[krugaan]

I think the disconnect comes in with that last part you quoted. Because you have the spells slots of an 18th level caster from the multiclass table. 18th level gives you a 9th level spell slot.

Right, but you prepare each class individually as if they were seperate single classes, no?

[Mjolnirbear]

Nebb Neblinson, The Lord of Cantrips.

Young Nebb Neblinson was a bright lad, interested in everything. He was particularly fascinated by magic. And so it was that Neblin sought to study the magical arts under a wizard of repute.

However, as he studied, Nebb became increasingly fascinated with cantrips. "Why," he pondered to himself, "Is it that cantrips, and only cantrips, do not tax a spellcaster's resources? Why can they be invoked over and over again? Surely, if we could unlock that secret, we could figure out how to apply it to spells of greater power!"

And so, Nebb devoted himself exclusively to the study of cantrips. He has not yet unlocked the essential secrets he seeks, but he sure does know a heck of a lot of cantrips at this point.

Forest Gnome Wizard (Illusionist) 4/Arcana Cleric 4/Bard 4/Druid 4/Celestial Warlock 3 (Pact of the Tome)/Sorcerer 1

This build is, of course, designed to maximize cantrips known. By the time he reaches the peak of his power at level 20, Nebb knows:

1. Minor Illusion
2. 3 Bard cantrips
3. 4 Cleric cantrips
4. 2 Wizard cantrips (known as cleric cantrips)
5. 3 Druid cantrips
6. 4 Sorcerer cantrips
7. 2 Warlock cantrips
8. Light and Sacred Flame (as Warlock cantrips)
9. 3 cantrips from any class's spell list
10. 5 Wizard cantrips (4 base plus one from Master Illusionist)

...for a grand total of 29 cantrips known, not including any gained from feats! Of course, he also has the spell slots of a 17th level caster with which to power his myriad of first and second level spells, but who cares? Cantrips are where the REAL power is, baby.

I would play this so hard. But I don't think it's useless. Or rather, it can easily be not useless by choosing Agonising Blast and Hexing. Everything else is utility and rituals. Upcast the Dickens out of your Burning Hands spells and all those 'useless' high-level slots can be burned to Quicken more EBs.

Edit: didn't see you only had one level of sorcerer. I'd personally change that to at least three just for sorcery points.

[Beechgnome]

You know those annoyingly efficient people who get everything done Before they go to bed so they get a good night sleep and aren't rushing in the morning?

I present Prudent Proudfoot, a halfling 1st level Wizard, 7th level Divine Soul Sorcerer.

St 10
Dx 14
Cn 14
In 13
Ws 12
Ch 16

Wizard spells Snare, Alarm
Sorcerer spells Mage armor, Bless, Feather Fall, Darkvision, Aid, Suggestion, Meld into Stone, Death Ward, Guardian of Faith

Metamagic Extended Spell, Subtle spell

Some spellcasters like to get a good night's sleep and then, refreshed and recharged, go out and Actually Cast Spells in combat and while adventuring. Prudent thinks these mages are crazy.

A true master does all of his prep work Before going to bed.

He casts Mage armor, Darkvision, Aid and Death Ward all as extended spells before sleeping. (Duration 16 hours, no concentration).

He casts Guardian of Faith, Alarm and Snare all as Extended spells to guard the camp for 16 hours. Who needs a night watch?

Just to make sure, he converts one of his third level slots into 3 more sorcery points then casts two more snares and another alarm, extending them all.

He then casts extended Meld into Stone using his last slot and SP, and sleeps inside a rock.

When he wakes, he has AC 15, 5 extra hp, darkvision and Death Ward with him for another 8 hours of adventuring, and a camp few would want to investigate.

A good NPC to have if the party needs a safe night, But useless, oh so useless given all the investment he put into it.

Now if only he could take 5 levels of Ranger to get Cordon of Arrows...

[Joe dirt]

A character that is a Siamese twin... one twin wants to be a paladin of lawful good nature. the other wants to be an evil assassin or someone with multiple personality disorder... but has the same problem of being completely opposed to the others agenda.... could also work with a character that is possessed

[mgshamster]

I would play this so hard. But I don't think it's useless. Or rather, it can easily be not useless by choosing Agonising Blast and Hexing. Everything else is utility and rituals. Upcast the Dickens out of your Burning Hands spells and all those 'useless' high-level slots can be burned to Quicken more EBs.

Edit: didn't see you only had one level of sorcerer. I'd personally change that to at least three just for sorcery points.

Fun thing about the cantrip master is that they're truly a master of magic. They can cast a wide variety of spells all day long and never run out! They even have some potent damage because cantrips scale with level not class, and they have a variety of damage types to tailor it to the enemy.

[Knaight]

I'm not saying you're a nerd, but there's something .. thematically pure about a nerd joining a DnD campaign and making an accountant / non combat character, lol.

I mean, the inspiration there is literally the general phenomena of Irish monasticism in the 700's, adapted for a fantasy setting. I'm willing to cop to it being nerdy even by D&D standards.

[The_Jette]

A character that is a Siamese twin... one twin wants to be a paladin of lawful good nature. the other wants to be an evil assassin or someone with multiple personality disorder... but has the same problem of being completely opposed to the others agenda.... could also work with a character that is possessed

I played this character in a LARP. I was an Assassin half the time, and a Healer the other half of the time. The Assassin always wore a mask, so nobody knew the truth, even himself. Nobody even noticed that they had almost identical backstories, because they assumed I was just being lazy in my character creation. Turns out I was much better at character building than they assumed.

[jojo]

"An arrow to the knee? You got off *lucky*."

Now I'm picturing a halfling grappler-barbarian/bard focused on dexterity as a result of his ill-founded belief that he would grow up to thieve all the thieving thief's in the thiefdom through the use of his mighty, manipulative wits (high dexterity/intelligence, average constitution/charisma, low strength/wisdom) until a drunken tavern brawl revealed to him his love of gratuitous physical violence. (Background: Charlatan.)

Given his small size and relative physical frailty he's forced to rely exclusively on the single-leg takedown when fighting most creatures which, as with Fezzek of Princess Bride fame, impairs his ability to fight people of his own size. The ferocious joy that he experiences from a well struck blow of his forehead to the kneecap or groin of an opponent is sufficient to keep him alive when they kick him half-way across the dungeon.

Given that he always expected to spend more time dodging between legs in an attempt to escape the Watch he's naturally proficient in acrobatics, not athletics. The result of his greater than average intellect is that he cannot resist puns in the midst of combat leading him to have unintentionally multi-classed to bard.

In order to employ his sole maneuver of the single-leg take down with any hope of success even against your average ale-besotted human commoner he's taken to wearing a helmet which he uses to headbutt knees and groins in the hopes of imposing disadvantage on subsequent takedown attempts.

The end result being that one beautiful toss of the dice to land on the most unlikely natural 20 in the world as he attempts to execute a single leg takedown on something that's literally nine times his size and ends the round by knocking sardonically on his helmet as he utters the following dad-joke:

"It's a knee-cap, get it?"

[krugaan]

I mean, the inspiration there is literally the general phenomena of Irish monasticism in the 700's, adapted for a fantasy setting. I'm willing to cop to it being nerdy even by D&D standards.

My man! :smallcool:

[krugaan]

Now I'm picturing a halfling grappler-barbarian/bard focused on dexterity as a result of his ill-founded belief that he would grow up to thieve all the thieving thief's in the thiefdom through the use of his mighty, manipulative wits (high dexterity/intelligence, average constitution/charisma, low strength/wisdom) until a drunken tavern brawl revealed to him his love of gratuitous physical violence. (Background: Charlatan.)

Given his small size and relative physical frailty he's forced to rely exclusively on the single-leg takedown when fighting most creatures which, as with Fezzek of Princess Bride fame, impairs his ability to fight people of his own size. The ferocious joy that he experiences from a well struck blow of his forehead to the kneecap or groin of an opponent is sufficient to keep him alive when they kick him half-way across the dungeon.

Given that he always expected to spend more time dodging between legs in an attempt to escape the Watch he's naturally proficient in acrobatics, not athletics. The result of his greater than average intellect is that he cannot resist puns in the midst of combat leading him to have unintentionally multi-classed to bard.

In order to employ his sole maneuver of the single-leg take down with any hope of success even against your average ale-besotted human commoner he's taken to wearing a helmet which he uses to headbutt knees and groins in the hopes of imposing disadvantage on subsequent takedown attempts.

The end result being that one beautiful toss of the dice to land on the most unlikely natural 20 in the world as he attempts to execute a single leg takedown on something that's literally nine times his size and ends the round by knocking sardonically on his helmet as he utters the following dad-joke:

"It's a knee-cap, get it?"

/groan

That character ...

:smallamused:

... can solve a-knee problem with his head.

:smallcool:

Ok, that was terrible, I'll think of a better one later.

[Oramac]

Meet Jonathan the Jack of All Trades Classes.

Standard Human, 12, 12, 14, 12, 12, 12; +1 to all

He's interested in a little bit of everything and wants to try everything. His curiosity about the world rivals that of even the most curious of cats.

Starts as a Sorcerer, being innately born with a flair for some small magics, and eventually takes one level in every class.

[krugaan]

Meet Jonathan the Jack of All Trades Classes.

Standard Human, 12, 12, 14, 12, 12, 12; +1 to all

He's interested in a little bit of everything and wants to try everything. His curiosity about the world rivals that of even the most curious of cats.

Starts as a Sorcerer, being innately born with a flair for some small magics, and eventually takes one level in every class.

I think there was a thread about this before? It didn't turn out being that bad, IIRC, depending which classes you dip in more heavily than others.

Anything with warlock 2 / sorc 2 will give you really good at will ranged damage, you'll have proficiency in everything and likely expertise in half of those things.

I would play it as the regular joe who's the ultimate background character.

[Joe dirt]

I played this character in a LARP. I was an Assassin half the time, and a Healer the other half of the time. The Assassin always wore a mask, so nobody knew the truth, even himself. Nobody even noticed that they had almost identical backstories, because they assumed I was just being lazy in my character creation. Turns out I was much better at character building than they assumed.

So did u undercut ur own objectives? Did the two know about each other and if they did why didnt the good one lock up himself? Or was the good just a cover for the evil side?

[The_Jette]

So did u undercut ur own objectives? Did the two know about each other and if they did why didnt the good one lock up himself?

Actually, they did undercut their own objectives... sort of. They were completely unaware of each other. When one was in charge they had the strong desire to kill/protect the target of the other. There was a lot of "hey, guys, this assassin is after this person. We should protect them." And, part of the backstory was the assassin breaking into the healer's Monastery and killing off all the monks who lived there, causing the healer to leave the place, and the assassin to gain some status in the underworld. They think it's a coincidence that they keep ending up in the same space. The "end" of their story came about when the healer came across a person too damaged for him to save, and ended up sacrificing himself to save the person. His "soul" ascended to a higher plane, and left the body for the assassin, who picked up his skills with healing, and found that his body resisted him whenever he attempted to murder someone. He was essentially the same assassin, but with all of the "morals" of the healer. I retired the character after that, though.

[opaopajr]

:smalltongue:
The sad thing, even if you try with point buy, is you often get something intriguing to play.

See, even a Regular Human Barbarian Acolyte with 9,9,9,16,16,16 you end up with this:

Mother Superior
Lv 3 Human Beserker Barbarian Acolyte
HD: 1d12. HP: 23. AC: 8 (10 w shield, higher w med armor)
PB: +2. Spd: 30'.

STR 9, DEX 9, CON 9, INT 16, WIS 16, CHA 16.

Skill: Athletics +5, Insight +5, Perception +5, Religion +5.
Tools: --
Armor: light, medium, shields.
Weapons: simple, martial.
Language: Common +3 extra.

Rage - 3x
Danger Sense
Frenzy
Reckless Attack

Bkrd: Shelter of the Faithful.

Bio: She's the adventurers' parochial school disciplinarian. Cultured but with a nasty temper. Not too strong, lest she cripple her charges. But they learn to listen to her sooner than later. Her grapple is often a well placed pinch. :smallfrown:

I so wanna play this "useless" character in AL now... :smallcool:

[Caelic]

:smalltongue:
The sad thing, even if you try with point buy, is you often get something intriguing to play.

See, even a regular human barbarian acolyte with 9,9,9,16,16,16 you end up with this:

Mother superior
lv 3 human beserker barbarian acolyte
hd: 1d12. Hp: 23. Ac: 8 (10 w shield, higher w med armor)
pb: +2. Spd: 30'.




"Run! It's Attila the Nun!"

[krugaan]

"Run! It's Attila the Nun!"

Ouch, that hurts...

...my funnybone! Hyuckhyuckhyuck...

[SpamCreateWater]

Right, but you prepare each class individually as if they were seperate single classes, no?

If I'm reading it the same what that they are you prepare each class individually, yes, but your preparation is based on the highest spell slot you have (at least, as far as Clerics are concerned). As we're using the multiclass table our highest level spell slot is 9th.

[opaopajr]

Multiclassing
Spells Known and Prepared

You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.

This step. You calculate ignoring your Multiclassed Spell Slots value. :smallwink:

This is reinforced in the example given for both Multiclassing's "Spells Known and Prepared" section and "Spell Slots" section, to reinforce clarity and remove ambiguation. :smallsmile:

[krugaan]

Multiclassing
Spells Known and Prepared

You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.

This step. You calculate ignoring your Multiclassed Spell Slots value. :smallwink:

This is reinforced in the example given for both Multiclassing's "Spells Known and Prepared" section and "Spell Slots" section, to reinforce clarity and remove ambiguation. :smallsmile:

This. You can't "prepare as if you are singled classed" but then ignore that part when it comes to the "highest level slot" part.

[Laurefindel]

KROGG the fire-barbarian

Krogg is a half-orc barbarian (Berserker) of the frozen waste. Krogg's player gave him good STR and CON, half-decent DEX and dumped INT and WIS as low as he could. CHA is 12 because "hey, I have free Intimidate and that's a CHA skill".

Early in his adventurer's life, Krogg was impressed by wizards and sorcerers flinging fireballs, and came to the conclusion that FIRE! was the most powerful weapon there was. Krogg was to become a CASTER! Abysmal INT and WIS meant no Cleric/Druid/Wizard, so Trogg's player decided to go Sorcerer (Firebolt was not on the Warlock spell list). Unfortunately, now Krogg has to slug to 4th level to get his ASI to bring his CHA to 13. Krogg's player decides to go with the Actor feat, because why not?

A few levels later, Krogg is now a SORCERER (wild magic, because Krogg is a half-orc, not a half-orc/half-human/half-dragon). As the battle breaks, Krogg jumps into the fray, initiating Frenzy Rage (with one attack, because he didn't make it to level 5). Then, he remembers that FIRE! is the most powerful weapon, and casts a spell (with a disappointing spell DC of 12). Rage ends, Krogg gains an exhaustion level, and quickly runs out of spell slots (that's when his skin doesn't become a vibrant shade of blue or worse, when he becomes immune to alcohol for a week), because his group is now level 8th and fights are getting though. And that was the first encounter of the day...

[mgshamster]

KROGG the fire-barbarian

Krogg is a half-orc barbarian (Berserker) of the frozen waste. Krogg's player gave him good STR and CON, half-decent DEX and dumped INT and WIS as low as he could. CHA is 12 because "hey, I have free Intimidate and that's a CHA skill".

Early in his adventurer's life, Krogg was impressed by wizards and sorcerers flinging fireballs, and came to the conclusion that FIRE! was the most powerful weapon there was. Krogg was to become a CASTER! Abysmal INT and WIS meant no Cleric/Druid/Wizard, so Trogg's player decided to go sorcerer (Firebolt was not on the Warlock spell list). Unfortunately, now Krogg has to slug to 4th level to get his ASI to bring his CHA to 13. Krogg's player decides to go with the Actor feat, because why not?

A few levels later, Krogg is now a SORCERER (wild magic, because Krogg is a half-orc, not a half-orc/half-human/half-dragon). As the battle breaks, Krogg jumps into the fray, initiating Frenzy Rage (with one attack, because he didn't make it to level 5). Then, he remembers that FIRE! is the most powerful weapon, and casts a spell. Rage ends, Krogg gains an exhaustion level, and quickly runs out of spell slots (that's when his skin doesn't become a vibrant shade of blue or worse, when he becomes immune to alcohol for a week), because his group is now level 8th and fights are getting though. And that was the first encounter of the day...

A couple things wrong with this.

1) Casting doesn't end your rage; you just can't cast while raging. So he'd have to end his rage first and then cast.

2) Using rage or ending rage doesn't cause exhaustion. It's only when he also uses frenzy that he gains exhaustion. And if he's using frenzy, then he gets more than one attack. That's the whole point of frenzy.

This seems more weak due to play style than it does the build.

[Laurefindel]

A couple things wrong with this.

1) Casting doesn't end your rage; you just can't cast while raging. So he'd have to end his rage first and then cast.
True; that's what's Krogg's player is doing


2) Using rage or ending rage doesn't cause exhaustion. It's only when he also uses frenzy that he gains exhaustion. And if he's using frenzy, then he gets more than one attack. That's the whole point of frenzy.
Not on the first round; Krogg had to spend his bonus action to activate his rage and therefore cannot use it to gain bonus attack on the first round.


This seems more weak due to play style than it does the build.
Absolutely. It could be a viable built if done/player better. I guess that's a point in favour of 5e; it's actually hard to make a truly useless character unless you consciously sabotage it.

[SpamCreateWater]

This step. You calculate ignoring your Multiclassed Spell Slots value. :smallwink:

Please quote where it says this. It says nothing about "ignoring your Multiclassed Spells Slots Value :smallwink:" - which I'm not even sure is a thing because as far as you're concerned your "multiclass spell slots" are just "spell slots".

What it does say is that you prepare as a single-classed member of that class. Read Cleric's spell preparation section and it says that the spells you choose must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

In your reply please work with me as I'm not the person who originally started this. I don't need huge, bolded letters to read and I'm working from what I believe another person's view to be. :smallsmile:

[Friv]

Johann Fitzpatrick III

Level 5 Variant Human Noble Fighter (Battlemaster)

Strength 9 [-1], Dexterity 9 [-1], Constitution 15 [+2], Intelligence 15 [+2], Wisdom 8 [-1], Charisma 15 [+2]
Proficiency Bonus: +3, AC: 12. HP 44, Initiative -1. Strong Saves: Strength, Constitution
Proficient in simple weapons, martial weapons, all armour, shields, and dice.
Skills: Acrobatics +2, Athletics +2, History +5, Persuasion +5, Sneak +2
Equipment: Chain shirt, shortsword, shortsword, a light crossbow and an explorer’s pack.
Attack: Shortsword +2 [1d6-1] twice, Crossbow +2 [1d8-1]

Fighting Style: Two-Weapon Fighting: Add your Strength bonus to the damage of your off-hand attack.
Action Surge: Take an extra action once per rest.
Second Wind: Use bonus action once per rest to recover 1d10+5 HP.
Weapon Bond: You are bonded to your family longsword.
Feat: Mounted Combatant
Feat: Magic Adept
Extra Attack: When you take the attack action, attack twice.

Superiority Dice: 4d8
Maneuver Save DC: 7
Maneuvers Known:
*) Parry: When hit successfully, spend a die to reduce damage by 1d8-1.
*) Lunge: Spend a die to add 5 ft range. If you hit, add 1d8 damage.
*) Riposte: When someone misses you in melee, you can spend a die to make an attack. If it hits, add 1d8 damage.

Cantrips Known: Blade Ward, True Strike
Spell Known: Mage Armor

Johann Fitzpatrick is a member of the Fitzpatrick line of knights. He really wanted to be a wizard. Really, really wanted to be a wizard. But his father was convinced that he would be a KNIGHT. A true, brave, and loyal knight. He pushed Johann into physical training until he was ready to die, and then made it clear that Johann would be shaming the family if he ever stopped.

Johann is… not a very good knight. Despite his training with sword and dagger, he doesn’t really have what it takes to land a blow. He can hold his own against enemies without his extensive training, but that’s about it. What he does have is book smarts, natural charm, and endurance built up from years of pointless, garbage training, plus a tiny handful of scrounged spells originally designed by a wizard who wanted to be a knight, coupled with a lack of understanding of just how bad he really is. He never gives up. Unfortunately.

Johann isn’t totally useless. He has a couple of decent skills, and good HP. But of his three maneuvers, one relies on an Ability he doesn’t have, one makes him slightly better at making attacks that don’t usually hit, and one only works if someone misses him, which will almost never happen because his AC is 12. His HP is less great because nearly every attack is going to hit him. His Feat only works on horseback, and isn’t great even then. His Fighting Style is actively counter-productive. His spells reproduce things he already has or require him to stop fighting to set up combat ability. He is just generally going to be a millstone around everyone's necks.

(If you advance Johann, he'll probably pick up Resilient (Wisdom) at Level 6, the extremely terrible Know Your Enemy at Level 7 along with a fifth superiority die, and at Level 8 you can boost his Charisma to 17...)

[mgshamster]

I started a new thread on the spell casting topic.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?544172-Multiclass-and-Spells-how-does-it-work&p=22643347#post22643347

[SpamCreateWater]

I started a new thread on the spell casting topic.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?544172-Multiclass-and-Spells-how-does-it-work&p=22643347#post22643347

You are a straight classed Monk of the 4 Elements with only ASIs amongst munchkin Sorlocks with UA feats.

[toapat]

Please quote where it says this. It says nothing about "ignoring your Multiclassed Spells Slots Value :smallwink:" - which I'm not even sure is a thing because as far as you're concerned your "multiclass spell slots" are just "spell slots".

What it does say is that you prepare as a single-classed member of that class. Read Cleric's spell preparation section and it says that the spells you choose must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

In your reply please work with me as I'm not the person who originally started this. I don't need huge, bolded letters to read and I'm working from what I believe another person's view to be. :smallsmile:

can i please kiss you for being the first person ever involved in this argument who bothered opening their own PHB and looking at the Spell Preparation rules for Paladin/Druid/Cleric/Wizard and the Multiclass Rules and realized that they dont work?

[SpamCreateWater]

can i please kiss you for being the first person ever involved in this argument who bothered opening their own PHB and looking at the Spell Preparation rules for Paladin/Druid/Cleric/Wizard and the Multiclass Rules and realized that they dont work?

I'll check with my partner, but I'm sure that will be an acceptable action :smalltongue:

[opaopajr]

Very simple, the "Prepared and Casting Spells" section of a class (so too the "Spells Known" section of a class) is calculated 'as if individually'. This determines any restrictions to your spell lists. It determines which spell list you have access to, what spell levels you have access to, and what spells are accrued in your spellbook (if necessary). This explains why the Multiclassing example includes a definition of 10 known wizard spells, 2 of which are 2nd lvl.

Specifically, the second paragraph in that section provides formula on these values. The first value is Preparation: this is caster level + caster mod (minimum 1). The second is Spell Levels Known, which is contingent upon knowing the Spell Slots Available according to the single class table.

The only way to gain info from the single class table and discover Spell Levels Known is to find the Spell Slots Available. The only way allowed by multiclassing to calculate it is 'as if individually classed'. Thus you isolate the class levels from the total character levels. Then you can read the values from the single class table.

Once that is done, the 'as if individually classed' levels define what line to read on the single class table. Which in turn defines Spell Slots Available. Which in turn defines the Spells Levels Known. This is a nuclear process -- an unbroken chain necessary to finish the Prepared Spells section.

Only once you finish this step do you move into the Multiclass exception for Spell Slots. The exception was given to Spell Slots Known after the previous calculation, not before, so there is no interruption of the Spell.Levels Known contingent calculation. You only get to return to the Multiclassing chapter "Multiclassing Spell Slots" AFTER you finish completion of the previous clause "Spells Known and Prepared Spells" read specifically with 'as if individually classed' clause attached.

Order of operations is further disambiguated by the example given AND carried over through to the next clause section's step for further reinforcement of intent.

Here's the cleric's class' nuclear Prep and Casting Spells section for reference.

Preparing and Casting Spells

The Cleric table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.

You prepare the list of cleric spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the cleric spell list. When you do so, choose a number of cleric spells equal to your Wisdom modifier + your cleric level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

For example, if you are a 3rd-level cleric, you have four 1st-level and two 2nd-level spell slots. With a Wisdom of 16, your list of prepared spells can include six spells of 1st or 2nd level, in any combination. If you prepare the 1st-level spell cure wounds, you can cast it using a 1st-level or 2nd-level slot. Casting the spell doesn’t remove it from your list of prepared spells.

[Ivor_The_Mad]

I have a friend who is good at this. They made a mute bard. She pickpockets any one who doesn't tip her.

[Asmotherion]

I'll try to keep these pure-classed so it's fair.

TWF Strength-based Purple Dragon Knight with the criminal background (drafted in to PDKs due to his pure heart and "potential"): this character is not so much useless as far behind the curve. TWF does not work well with action surge and competes with second wind for the bonus action.

There are also few feats that a strength-based TWF character can take to differentiate himself. He'll have 19 AC, some DPR, and that's about it.

Fire Dragon Origin Sorcerer with all of the fire spells: the key to playing a dragon sorcerer well is to diversify your spell list. We're not going to do that. We're going to take firebolt, burning hands, scorching ray, fireball, and never replace any of them. We're also going to take Empowered and Quickened, pretty standard for a blaster.

Our character is a pyromaniac, full stop. And any time enemies are immune to fire, he's useless and can't do anything about it. Now let's put the nail in the coffin: the antagonists in the campaign are fire giants, fire elementals, and red dragons.

This is easy: You go and become friends with the red Dragons with your Dragonic Ancestry feature giving you expertease when you use Charisma skills with Dragons. Since you're a Pyromaniac, you're probably decended from Red Dragons (Chaotic Evil) and not anything north in the aligmental compass, so you're probably like cousins either way.

So, you go hang with your cousins, ask them to eat the Fire Giants for you (lore wise, Dragons Hate Giants either way, and the hate is mutual), and then you start a campfire ignoring the fire elementals, as you don't give a rat's @ss about what they're doing.

In this specific campain setting this build is not useless, it's more like the freaking Dovakin gone Miraak (before the betrayal of the dragons) all over again.