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Doc_Outlands
2007-08-20, 02:06 PM
originating thread found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54367).

Swooper would like to keep his thread for just presenting the facts we know/can surmise/infer about the 4ed system. Naturally, folks want to discuss things. Therefore, I'm starting this as a companion-thread to his, wherein we can discuss the facts as we learn them. (yeah, another useless 4ed thread!) I would like to keep this thread down to discussions only of facts as learned and presented on Swooper's original thread, please. Speculation, unless tightly tied to a known fact, or "wish-listing" should be done on a more appropriate thread, thanks!



The PHB will come out in May 2008, the MM in June and the DMG in July.
The core will include rules for up to level 30. This likely means something like the epic rules will be a part of core.
Tieflings will be a part of the 'core' races. Either half-orcs or gnomes will not be.
Races will aquire more racial abilities as they gain levels, maxing out around 10th level.
The fighter class will specialize in a weapon or a group of weapons, gaining ToB-like attack manouvers based on his chosen weapon(s).
Monster races will be available later, but will not necesserally (I can't spell that word >_<) have the same stats as the monster.
Vancian casting will be mostly gone
Wizards will be able to cast 25th level spells, suggesting a complete revamp of the magic system.
Hellish Paladins of Asmodeus.
The feat system is getting completely redone.
Their primary concern is making the power levels equal and keeping them equal throughout all of the levels, so that casters don't dominate high levels and melee'ers don't dominate at low levels.
The grapple system is getting redone to make it less messy and less confusing.

Tormsskull
2007-08-20, 02:09 PM
I know the bigger threads can overwhelm some people, but many posters are already discussing the facts on several different specific avenues (see 30 levels thread, Vancian casting thread, etc).

Discussing the facts in a global sense would be too cumbersome of a thread, which is why the "4th Edition!" thread splintered off as it did. If you happen to get everyone to post here who wants to discuss the facts, it will get too huge, and someone will start up they "4th Edition: A dicussion of facts - Spellcasters" thread.

Summary: Read the other threads :smalltongue:

Doc_Outlands
2007-08-20, 02:30 PM
Races will aquire more racial abilities as they gain levels, maxing out around 10th level.
One poster appeared to "complain" that this feels more like bloodlines. Personally, I say "Excellent!" I liked the idea of bloodlines when I saw them in Unearthed Arcana[/a] and I think this could work well with the base races.

[I]The fighter class will specialize in a weapon or a group of weapons, gaining ToB-like attack manouvers based on his chosen weapon(s).
I don't typically play a Fighter, so my comments are more along the lines of what my group likes. My Players who run fighters really like TOB. I thought the idea of weapon-groups presented in UA had merit when I saw it, but haven't implemented it in any of my games yet.

Vancian casting will be mostly gone
This is my wife's primary complaint against D&D. She hates the standard magic system. She is now resigned to upgrading to 4ed. :smallbiggrin: I've pointed out to her that there is a plethora of other magic systems out there for D&D already - and we own most of them. :smalltongue:

Wizards will be able to cast 25th level spells, suggesting a complete revamp of the magic system.
I would say it suggests a "major" or "significant" revamp if this were all we knew about the magic system. Perhaps this will allow the use of metamagics on higher-level spells?

The grapple system is getting redone to make it less messy and less confusing.
GOOD!! Heck, even if all they do is include an example of a grapple-combat, it would be an improvement!

RiOrius
2007-08-20, 02:37 PM
Might I request sources for these bullet points? I've been trying to keep up with the stuff WotC's been releasing, yet some of them are new to me, and it'd be nice to see the full article/press release/whatever instead of just the distilled point.

Tormsskull
2007-08-20, 02:46 PM
Might I request sources for these bullet points? I've been trying to keep up with the stuff WotC's been releasing, yet some of them are new to me, and it'd be nice to see the full article/press release/whatever instead of just the distilled point.

Try this other 4e thread:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54367

DraPrime
2007-08-20, 02:59 PM
I don't know if I should be happy or sad about the new magic system. I never had too many problems with the normal one so as long as the new one works I'll be happy.

Renegade Paladin
2007-08-20, 03:10 PM
Evil paladins as such make no sense in the first place, but I have to wonder, why specifically Asmodean "paladins?" :smallconfused:

Morty
2007-08-20, 03:12 PM
Evil paladins as such make no sense in the first place, but I have to wonder, why specifically Asmodean "paladins?" :smallconfused:

So that people can play such paladins and say "OMG I'm evil paladin of Asmodeus" and use it as an excuse to go on killing sprees. As for why specifically Asmodeus, I don't know. Besides, aren't demon lords as setting-specific as gods?

Renegade Paladin
2007-08-20, 03:17 PM
Actually, demon lords and archdevils tend to make it across settings far more than gods do, oddly enough. Almost all the Archdukes of Hell and demon princes of Greyhawk also appear in the Forgotten Realms, for instance.

Morty
2007-08-20, 03:21 PM
Huh. I didn't know that. Either way, this thing about "hellish paladins of Asmodeus" wasn't anything official, so I guess there will be possibility for evil paladins to serve other demon and devil lords as well. This doesn't change the fact that I don't see them as PCs, though.

Jothki
2007-08-20, 03:28 PM
Evil paladins as such make no sense in the first place, but I have to wonder, why specifically Asmodean "paladins?" :smallconfused:

By any D&D fluff that I've seen, locking Paladins into Lawful Good makes no sense. Why would Good have any special divine powers that Evil can never have? Sure there's the Blackguard, but that seems to be too focused on being a class for Paladins to fall into. Shouldn't fallen Blackguards be able to trade their Blackguard levels into Paladin levels?

Telonius
2007-08-20, 03:37 PM
I don't mean to be overly dense, but the "evil paladin" concept makes perfect sense to me. Fighting servant of an evil god, who tries to exemplify the god's alignment, gets an evil-looking mount, but needs to follow a code to stay in the god's favor... makes as much sense as a standard Paladin, to me.

Although they do have the "Blackguard" PrC currently, that's always seemed kind of a partial solution to me. Does no one start off worshipping Hextor (or Asmodeus, etc) from the beginning of their career? Does Hextor need to leach all of his paladin-like champions from Pelor's service? Can't he grant his own servants that same power? If you're going to have a Paladin, an equal and opposite evil base class would make sense.

Morty
2007-08-20, 03:39 PM
I don't mean to be overly dense, but the "evil paladin" concept makes perfect sense to me. Fighting servant of an evil god, who tries to exemplify the god's alignment, gets an evil-looking mount, but needs to follow a code to stay in the god's favor... makes as much sense as a standard Paladin, to me.


It's not about that. Someone completely devoted to doing evil is, in my opinion, unplayable. You'd have to do horrible things as a principle and sessions would easily turn into killing sprees. It's already hard to find a realistic evil character.

Xuincherguixe
2007-08-20, 04:09 PM
I actually like Paladins, if done well. Otherwise just annoying.

Evil is allowed it's champions too, but that is not the same thing as a Paladin.

It sounds like what's happening is that Paladin is becoming little more than an alternate Multiclass Priest/Fighter with some slightly different abilities. And I don't like that.

Now, if it actually comes right out and says that it's an alternative to Multiclassing that's a bit different.


Still, I can see the Paladin as it's own distinctive class easier than some kind of Dark Warrior. And even then? Very different things beyond the fact one is good and one is evil.

Maybe that Paladin is doing things just for the sake of good, but someone who fights just for the sake of evil makes no sense. Fighting for Evil because Evil has promised things to it's champion? Sure. Overwhelming him to the point he no longer has a say in things? Okay! His perceptions twisted and driven insane so that it's difficult to see the way things are? Also acceptable. But evil for the sake of evil? Doesn't really work in my mind.

Not that I don't play evil characters for the sake of playing evil characters. But that's something a bit different which not only makes a bit more sense, I embrace not making sense :P

Ramos
2007-08-20, 04:25 PM
It's not about that. Someone completely devoted to doing evil is, in my opinion, unplayable. You'd have to do horrible things as a principle and sessions would easily turn into killing sprees. It's already hard to find a realistic evil character.

That is not so. You do have to do horrible things. You are not devoted to doing evil though-just as a lawful good character is not devoted to doing good. A lawful good but not stupid character is devoted to doing good and upholding law so that the world becomes better and ppl in it live better. A character that upholds law or good for no reason than serving good or law becomes a Miko. Somewhat completely commited into serving only himself at the expense of everyone else is evil-not because of evil's sake-but to "serve the greater you" as Belkar's conscience says.




Maybe that Paladin is doing things just for the sake of good, but someone who fights just for the sake of evil makes no sense. Fighting for Evil because Evil has promised things to it's champion? Sure. Overwhelming him to the point he no longer has a say in things? Okay! His perceptions twisted and driven insane so that it's difficult to see the way things are? Also acceptable. But evil for the sake of evil? Doesn't really work in my mind.

As mentioned above, good for the sake of good results into Mikos eventually. Evil for the sake of evil results into insanity eventually. As Miko=Insanity, both options are wrong-however, characters that are insane can still be roleplayed.
Evil so you can steal/extort more gold for the greater you? (NE)
Evil so the order you serve can acheive world domination? (LE)
Evil because it is fun killing stuff? (CE)
All the above are viable evil options for evil characters that are successful. So what's the problem with a LE emissary of Asmodeus that does evil for the sake of world domination?

Wehrkind
2007-08-20, 04:27 PM
Evil Paladins don't necessarily see themselves as "evil." They see themselves as pursuing power, and others as fools too weak to fully compete and thus are fit only for how they benefit the paladin's goals; otherwise they are to be crushed. Service to some Dark God makes the Paladin more powerful, and his patron encourages him to climb in power over the bodies of his enemies, as opposed to those namby pamby gods who complain when you kill those too weak and stupid to be worth your time.

That's one way of looking at it. Merely a rejection of the "good" alignment's morality, and recognition that they are rewarded for doing what they want to do anyway, with the resultant dedication.

Proto-Pally:"I think I should be able to murder and steal from anyone I am able to to further my ends."
Fell Overlord:"You know, you could earn reward points for murdering and stealing from people while telling people how cool I am. I can even help you find people who can be murdered and stolen from, at no cost to you (other than your immortal soul.)"
Proto-Pally:"Really!? I would love to join your club!"
Fell Overlord: "Here, I have brochures, and an informitive CD about how to make your own sacrifical alter to release your inner dark powers."

That's pretty much how every club or service gets sold: specialty credit cards, web site memberships, catalogues, cults, favored parents in a divorce, favorite teachers, video games... pretty much everything.

Altair_the_Vexed
2007-08-20, 04:50 PM
:smallsigh:
Whatever 4th Edition looks like, I know I'll still end up house ruling it to hell and back to have a game I'm happy with.
I've been tweaking the official D&D rules since 1984. 3rd Ed was an improvement and I plundered that thoroughly - but I still ported over core rules from the '80s.

I guess I'll just stick with my current material and look over the SRD v4 when it comes out. If it doesn't get SRD'd, then that'll be the parting of ways for me and WotC.

Lyinginbedmon
2007-08-20, 05:06 PM
Vancian casting will be mostly gone
Wizards will be able to cast 25th level spells, suggesting a complete revamp of the magic system.

25TH LEVEL SPELLS?! Are they completely insane!? Everyone knows that throughout the entire game's existence, there have been only ten levels of spells, eleven if you count the Epic (Or 10th level) spells. To change this would be blasphemy to the core of the game system's history.

Vancian casting, I don't mind it being reworked, but not completely rebuilt. I think it's a great move that Wizards and other casters will never run completely out of spells, because at that point they become largely useless without magic items, which is naturally unlikely/impossible at lower levels.

So many changes are necessary, but so many listed in the opening post are, for me at least, either superfluous, unnecessary, or mad.

Xion_Anistu-san
2007-08-20, 07:50 PM
originating thread found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54367).
Tieflings will be a part of the 'core' races. Either half-orcs or gnomes will not be.
Races will aquire more racial abilities as they gain levels, maxing out around 10th level.
The fighter class will specialize in a weapon or a group of weapons, gaining ToB-like attack manouvers based on his chosen weapon(s).
Vancian casting will be mostly gone
Wizards will be able to cast 25th level spells, suggesting a complete revamp of the magic system.
The feat system is getting completely redone.
Their primary concern is making the power levels equal and keeping them equal throughout all of the levels, so that casters don't dominate high levels and melee'ers don't dominate at low levels.
The grapple system is getting redone to make it less messy and less confusing.


OK. Let me get this straight. I have heard it said that Wizards wants to make D&D more "intuitive", so they're going to completely revamp the game??!? How will that make it more intuitive?

Why drop any races if any monster can be a PC? So for that matter, why make base races more complex for the sake of balance?

Speaking of balance, why do the classes HAVE to be balanced? When did this become an unspoken law or not being balanced an unconscionable evil? They have never been balanced, and IMO shouldn't be balanced. I also fail to see how changing the leveling of spells and how they are cast will balance any caster to a non-caster. That would mean that a Fighter should then be able to do somewhere in the neighborhood of 10d6 to 15d6 extra per round for a full-round attack at higher levels to equal a Wizard. I have a terrible feeling that the video-game-playing/MMORPG crowd of new players are overly swaying the direction of the game. IMO it seems that the out-spoken forum posters who complain about the game are forcing designers to turn D&D into a table-top version of Everquest/WoW/take your pick--where all races and classes are allegedly balanced and you can single-handedly take on a horde and survive.

And finally, why does it seem like everyone has this sheer loathing of grappling? It's no more cumbersome than some higher level spells. Do today's players have such a hard time remembering four steps? I find that simply too difficult to believe.

horseboy
2007-08-20, 08:04 PM
Speaking of balance, why do the classes HAVE to be balanced?

Because some of us would like to be able to play a higher level something other than Druid/Cleric/Wizard and matter? Silly us.

Weredwarf
2007-08-20, 08:28 PM
The PHB will come out in May 2008, the MM in June and the DMG in July.
The core will include rules for up to level 30. This likely means something like the epic rules will be a part of core.
Tieflings will be a part of the 'core' races. Either half-orcs or gnomes will not be.
Races will aquire more racial abilities as they gain levels, maxing out around 10th level.
The fighter class will specialize in a weapon or a group of weapons, gaining ToB-like attack manouvers based on his chosen weapon(s).
Monster races will be available later, but will not necesserally (I can't spell that word >_<) have the same stats as the monster.
Vancian casting will be mostly gone
Wizards will be able to cast 25th level spells, suggesting a complete revamp of the magic system.
Hellish Paladins of Asmodeus.
The feat system is getting completely redone.
Their primary concern is making the power levels equal and keeping them equal throughout all of the levels, so that casters don't dominate high levels and melee'ers don't dominate at low levels.
The grapple system is getting redone to make it less messy and less confusing.


.So, we have to wait a month to fight monsters, 2 if we want magic items.
.meh, i never liked epic level play
.I hope gnomes stay, half-orcs should be non-core
.sounds good
.I don't have ToBso i can't say anything about it.
.Always been a fan of monster races glad to see they returned
.Hope it's per encounter or spell points at will would suck.
.This can be very good or very bad
.I miss the anti-paladin can't wait to play one
.If this means more feat trees then:smallbiggrin: .
.I would buy 4.0 just for this.
.So i'll actully be able to grapple monsters:smallamused: .

Bosh
2007-08-20, 08:54 PM
It's not about that. Someone completely devoted to doing evil is, in my opinion, unplayable. You'd have to do horrible things as a principle and sessions would easily turn into killing sprees. It's already hard to find a realistic evil character.
Well it depends on what you mean by evil, if its "do horrible things as a principle" than that's the silly sort of cartoon evil I try to avoid. If its "getting what you want and not caring how you get it" that can be a lot of fun to play or GM. Basically having evil be thuggish instead of psychopathic.

Leto
2007-08-20, 08:55 PM
Evil paladins as such make no sense in the first place, but I have to wonder, why specifically Asmodean "paladins?" :smallconfused:

I think that the paladin class is being reworked into more of a "champion" of whatever God they idolize. So a "paladin" of Asmodeus tries to encompass all of the "ideals" of his demonic overlord by being a vicious murderer while a "paladin" of Obad Hai devotes himself to the balance of nature and society. A paladin of Pelor would still be the iconic paragon of justice and virtue.

So I can see elements of that class from the miniatures Handbook that was a spontaneous divine caster who also took on traits of their god being implemented. Likewise the alternate paladins of tyranny/freedom/slaughter from unearthed arcana seem to have been merged into the idea behind this reworked paladin class.

Hopefully this means that clerics will become less physically combat oriented and more fragile like wizards.

Roland St. Jude
2007-08-20, 09:11 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: I appreciate the percieved need for such a thread, but really, these points are already in mid-discussion on the various other 4e threads (general and specific) already in existence. Locked.