Paladin Barbarian Multiclass

[S_A_M I AM]

Barbadin? Palarian? Bight? (Barbarian/ Knight)

The right portmanteau is obviously the most important question.

So I'm throwing some characters around for an upcoming campaign. Partially because I'm bored, partially because I'd like to be able to slot into anything fun for the sake of everybody having the best time possible.

The campaign premise as I understand it is:
The PC's are playing the reincarnations of six legendary warriors from the beginning of time. The people who partially drove the gods from the face of the prime material and set up the current divine status quo of indirect action through clerics and the like. (Custom setting.)

We were all children together in an orphanage and are being called back home by the death of our collective mother figure. Without having our magical avatar reincarnation-ness revealed to us yet.

So the premise that I was hoping I could get some advice on is:
Mei Dwiin. Brass Dragonborn.
-Was delivered to the orphanage as an egg and despite being the youngest of their clutch of friends, matured quickly enough that they were kinda the elder brother to most of the group.
-Fell beneath the ice of a nearby lake/ river during one of the harder winters the extended family went through and came out with minor brain damage.
-Was the last of the kids to leave, eventually the Mother Figure sent him away to a nearby quarry/ mine to work.
-While working there, he received a series of intricate tattoos from a shaman who was aghast that Mei wasn't familiar with his clan heritage or any of that Dragonborn stuff.
-The clan spirit/ spirits that were summoned by the magic ancestral guardian were not in fact of his dragonic people. Its a manifestation of his own reincarnated spirit. Cazaly the Elven Paladin, one of those Legendary Heroes. (Who IS the person who she was, without the memories that shaped her to be who she was, to avoid spoilers.)
-Cazaley (Who loves to fly :smalltongue:) from then on, acted as his Jimminy Cricket.

Which brings us to the start of the campaign: Mei the never slovenly, affectionate dullard who gives hugs so good that they cure syphilis.


The build as a whole is expected to be: Ancestral Guardian Barbarian 6 (Minimum), Paladin X
I believe we're starting at first level.

Strength 17
Dexterity 12
Constitution 14
Inteligence 7
Wisdom 13
Charisma 11
(After racial modifiers.)

I've never actually played either a paladin or a barbarian before:
Where are good breakpoints to multiclass?
If my initial weapons are from work; a warpick (pickaxe) and warhammer (Sledgehammer) what would be good feats to take that will overlap with them when I'm actually geared up later in the campaign?
There don't seem to be many potential pitfalls within the Paladin subclass, which one would work best? (Paladin of the Crown looks like a flavour win, since we literally built the social order he would be swearing to protect.)
I like to optimise within character concept: Is there anything more likely to make myself useful with than a -5/+10 two handed fighter+ the two handed fighting style?
Am I right in thinking that spells without a save are basically my only option here?

Edit: I'm going to want at least one bump to my Dex, possibly no more if I start wearing medium armour. Are any of my stats inadequate?

[MeeposFire]

You will need to switch your wis and cha scores as you need a 13 cha to multiclass into or out of paladin.

Personally not a big fan of two handed style even if using a two handed weapon. I actually prefer defense in that instance. A slight increase in average damage with no increase in max damage and a low but potential decrease in damage just does not work for me.


Is there something specific you really want from paladin? Even if we get your cha up to allow this you are not going to be able to get that much from paladin. Some smiting to be sure but to get the most of going heavily into paladin you really want a higher cha and you are going to be having a hard time of it if you are going to raise your str, raise your dex at least once, and trying to do a character that sues feats. I think you are going to have to make a choice on something to give up.

[Laserlight]

Palabarian, I would say.

The Ultimate-Optimizer's-Multiclassing-Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502248-Ultimate-Optimizer-s-Multiclassing-Guide) has breakpoints and discussion.

As I recall, you'll need a 13CHA for multiclassing Paladin.

[Malifice]

Vengance Paladin + Frenzy Barbarian.

Call yourself 'Jules'

Before rolling initiative make sure you say:

"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-2HXqC76wDkc/UNnEfC4iXYI/AAAAAAAABHg/0CGBxq7avto/s1600/pulp+fiction+jules.jpg

[S_A_M I AM]

I think I've settled on Palarian cause it feels better in my mouth.


Personally not a big fan of two handed style even if using a two handed weapon. I actually prefer defense in that instance. A slight increase in average damage with no increase in max damage and a low but potential decrease in damage just does not work for me.
Is that your final answer or does a potential larger upkick to the minimum damage from smiting/ enlarging make it feel a little more tennable to you?

I'm AFB right now so I'm pretty sure that the other fighting style options could be Protection, Defence and Dueling? (Being AFB is also why I got my Wis/ Cha mixed up. Thank you all for correcting me.)

There's a small chance I'm not gonna be wearing armour at all until pretty late in the game, if at. Any advice? (Protection and dueling both seem like a waste too. I'm gonna have that "ghosts protect party members" thing to take up my action so having a shield, at all, seems like it has an opportunity cost.)


Is there something specific you really want from paladin? Even if we get your cha up to allow this you are not going to be able to get that much from paladin. Some smiting to be sure but to get the most of going heavily into paladin you really want a higher cha and you are going to be having a hard time of it if you are going to raise your str, raise your dex at least once, and trying to do a character that sues feats. I think you are going to have to make a choice on something to give up.
Well theirs a pair of reasons for it:
Paladin seems like the biggest leap from Barbarian in terms of getting in touch with ones past self and becoming more wise/ whole. (So a flavour win.)
The paladins spell list+ smiting seemed like a good fit for somebody with relatively low stats, not a lot of offensive stuff.

And I know I'm leaving a lot of power on the table, even in terms of missing out on the BIG bump to saves that I could pickup.

Would anybody suggest an arcane knight or a cleric of some description if I'm wedded to multiclassing? (And I kinda-sorta am: I'd rather reflect his potential character development mechanically if I could.)


Vengance Paladin + Frenzy Barbarian.

Call yourself 'Jules'

Before rolling initiative make sure you say:

-snip-

I'm not saying no: I don't even know who the gods are in this setting yet. (I do know they're all dragons and there are 20 of them.)

But that is still cool as heck and I may, in fact, steal the bejesus out of that in future.


Palabarian, I would say.

The Ultimate-Optimizer's-Multiclassing-Guide has breakpoints and discussion.

As I recall, you'll need a 13CHA for multiclassing Paladin.

Hand to god: I googled "multiclass optimization" and I didn't spot that one.

Thank you! :smallamused:

[Lombra]

Paladin + Barbarian sounds really a lot like Zealot from Xanathar's. You can fluff it the same, and you'll be a shirtless smiting guy.

[S_A_M I AM]

Paladin + Barbarian sounds really a lot like Zealot from Xanathar's. You can fluff it the same, and you'll be a shirtless smiting guy.

...

That straight up did not occur to me...

But after thinking about it? It has a certain mechanical consistency that would probably make it actually more powerful but a consistency that I'm actively trying to subvert.

[Lombra]

...

That straight up did not occur to me...

But after thinking about it? It has a certain mechanical consistency that would probably make it actually more powerful but a consistency that I'm actively trying to subvert.

Randomly raging for RP reasons removes the mechanical consistency, you can play it as consistent, or inconsostent, as you want it to be :)

[ChampionWiggles]

With Xanathar's Zealot option, the Barbarian/Paladin multiclass can fit in thematically very well. Oaths that would fit with the Zealot's fluff are Vengeance and Conquest, but I suppose Crown would work well too. With Zealot + Paladin, you'd be a hard to kill, damage dealing machine! Your spell slots would mostly be used for smiting, since you can't cast or concentrate on magic while raging, but in the chance that you don't have rages or don't want to, having some spells gives you a little bit more options.

[DarkKnightJin]

With Xanathar's Zealot option, the Barbarian/Paladin multiclass can fit in thematically very well. Oaths that would fit with the Zealot's fluff are Vengeance and Conquest, but I suppose Crown would work well too. With Zealot + Paladin, you'd be a hard to kill, damage dealing machine! Your spell slots would mostly be used for smiting, since you can't cast or concentrate on magic while raging, but in the chance that you don't have rages or don't want to, having some spells gives you a little bit more options.

..I'm gonna steal this idea and combine it with Jules, and the Aasimar Zealot I already had planned.
No, none of you are getting credit for this. I will claim it was my idea alone! Muahahaha*cough* 🧐

[Lombra]

..I'm gonna steal this idea and combine it with Jules, and the Aasimar Zealot I already had planned.
No, none of you are getting credit for this. I will claim it was my idea alone! Muahahaha*cough* 🧐

I too am planning an aasimar (scourge) zealot, albeit single-classed, the flavour fits too damn well.

[DarkKnightJin]

I too am planning an aasimar (scourge) zealot, albeit single-classed, the flavour fits too damn well.

Haven't decided if I want to stay single classed, or split between Pal and Barb.

[PeteNutButter]

Palabarian, I would say.

The Ultimate-Optimizer's-Multiclassing-Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502248-Ultimate-Optimizer-s-Multiclassing-Guide) has breakpoints and discussion.

As I recall, you'll need a 13CHA for multiclassing Paladin.

The main problem with the paladin barbarian is it MAD needing str, con, cha and a 14 dex for optimal medium armor. My example build on the guide above used a tortle to negate the dex reliance.

For any other human type build, I’d recommend a stat array of something like 16, 14, 14, 8, 9, 13. EDIT: with your stat array, you should be fine, provided you can swap cha and wis for MC requirement. You lose one point of AC. It hurts, but won’t kill you (hopefully) especially if recklessly attacking anyways.

You don’t want more than four levels in barbarian, as you double up on extra attack. Best if you take just one before paladin 5, so you don’t delay extra attack any further. Paladin has much better feature post-level 5.

It’s quite powerful smiting and raging, just don’t delay extra attack too long. By level 10 barb 4/paladin 6 is solid. Rage is WAAAAAY better than any spell you’d be concentrating on if you plan on taking hits. Reckless attack ups the chances at crits for big smites.

[Lombra]

Haven't decided if I want to stay single classed, or split between Pal and Barb.

It's tricky because you don't want to take extra attack twice, the concept fits, but the choice is: barb3-4 for the subclass/feat and the rest paladin, or paladin 4 for the extra smites and barbarian for 16 levels?

I personally prefer staying single classed because I want to reach the "I don't die. Period." Ability ASAP.

[Laserlight]

Would anybody suggest an arcane knight or a cleric of some description if I'm wedded to multiclassing?

Are you thinking of EK or cleric as a dip for your paladin side (in which case the answer is "no") or for the barb side (in which case the answer is "NO")?

If paladin, go sorcadin because they're both CHA based and you get more slots to smite with. Hexadin may be viable.

If barb, dipping EK or cleric gets you essentially nothing for combat. You could gain some out of combat utility, but you'd do better to recruit a wizard, bard, rogue, or such, and you concentrate on smashing faces.

[DarkKnightJin]

It's tricky because you don't want to take extra attack twice, the concept fits, but the choice is: barb3-4 for the subclass/feat and the rest paladin, or paladin 4 for the extra smites and barbarian for 16 levels?

I personally prefer staying single classed because I want to reach the "I don't die. Period." Ability ASAP.

Yeah. I might stay single classed Zealot, and fluff 'em like a demented Paladin. No Smites, but honestly.. that's not really what we're going for, anyway.

[S_A_M I AM]

Randomly raging for RP reasons removes the mechanical consistency, you can play it as consistent, or inconsostent, as you want it to be :)

I meant consistent in terms of "Doesn't have a discrete moment of mechanical change that ties in with character development." cause language is screwy and I'm not great at communicating things. :p

Also: Was mostly expecting to be popping my rage in pretty minor fights, when his friends/ surrogate family gets hurt.

Now that I've said that out loud: Kinda hoping the game isn't too dangerous.


-Snip-

Nice to see people mechanically justifying my terrible decisions. :smallsmile:

How much of a hit is a dead level if I go to Barbarian six? Because the aesthetic and thematic parts of the Spirit Shield ability are a big part of why I wanted to play the character.

How much of a hit is it putting back a second attack until level nine or ten? Because it feels like a BIG one.

(Though getting my reaction back, particularly with two freer levels, opens up the weapon choice and feat playing field a whole bunch.)


Are you thinking of EK or cleric as a dip for your paladin side (in which case the answer is "no") or for the barb side (in which case the answer is "NO")?

If paladin, go sorcadin because they're both CHA based and you get more slots to smite with. Hexadin may be viable.

If barb, dipping EK or cleric gets you essentially nothing for combat. You could gain some out of combat utility, but you'd do better to recruit a wizard, bard, rogue, or such, and you concentrate on smashing faces.

I was mentioning a full swap for a Cleric/ Barbarian or the EK/ Barbarian. Discarding the Palarian entirely. Both classes would serve a similar storytelling purpose.

And thinking about the EK in particular? Yeah. Dropping three levels for some not particularly useful first level spells, cast with an off stat is a BIG hit, if they're not doing much else for me.

What makes a full investment or a dip into cleric such a bad choice though? Channel, some low/ mid level healing and buffing without concentration (for a very limited selection of spells) doesn't seem terrible.

[Quoxis]

I meant consistent in terms of "Doesn't have a discrete moment of mechanical change that ties in with character development." cause language is screwy and I'm not great at communicating things. :p

Also: Was mostly expecting to be popping my rage in pretty minor fights, when his friends/ surrogate family gets hurt.

Now that I've said that out loud: Kinda hoping the game isn't too dangerous.



Nice to see people mechanically justifying my terrible decisions. :smallsmile:

How much of a hit is a dead level if I go to Barbarian six? Because the aesthetic and thematic parts of the Spirit Shield ability are a big part of why I wanted to play the character.

How much of a hit is it putting back a second attack until level nine or ten? Because it feels like a BIG one.

(Though getting my reaction back, particularly with two freer levels, opens up the weapon choice and feat playing field a whole bunch.)



I was mentioning a full swap for a Cleric/ Barbarian or the EK/ Barbarian. Discarding the Palarian entirely. Both classes would serve a similar storytelling purpose.

And thinking about the EK in particular? Yeah. Dropping three levels for some not particularly useful first level spells, cast with an off stat is a BIG hit, if they're not doing much else for me.

What makes a full investment or a dip into cleric such a bad choice though? Channel, some low/ mid level healing and buffing without concentration (for a very limited selection of spells) doesn't seem terrible.

The terrible thing is that he has to dump con for wis for yet another multiclassing requirement, which is wis...

Paladin 2/Sorcerer (thematically divine soul) up to 6/barbarian x is my offer:
It's a 7th level caster which gives access to one 4th level smite and multiple lower ones (and you can only use up to 5th level slots anyway, which would be wasteful...) as well as that divine spark you want - even some cleric spells, but cast with charisma for less MADness.

[S_A_M I AM]

The terrible thing is that he has to dump con for wis for yet another multiclassing requirement, which is wis...

There is no other multiclass requirement: I would parenthetically be dropping paladin entirely, in favour of the cleric multiclass. (Bleric? Clearian?)

I'm kinda new at this: Not dumb. :smalltongue:

Edit: I may also be dumb.

[HermanTheWize]

Vengance Paladin + Frenzy Barbarian.

Call yourself 'Jules'

Before rolling initiative make sure you say:

"The path of the righteous man.........

I love you

[PeteNutButter]

There is no other multiclass requirement: I would parenthetically be dropping paladin entirely, in favour of the cleric multiclass. (Bleric? Clearian?)

I'm kinda new at this: Not dumb. :smalltongue:

Edit: I may also be dumb.

Cleric isn’t the best combination with barbarian. In combat you want to rage and almost all the cleric spells you’d want to cast are concentration so it only helps out of combat. The reason cleric was suggested (I presume) was to help slot progression to make smiting with paladin more frequent. So something like barb 6/pal 2/caster x is a good idea. Divine soul sorcerer or celestial warlock are both cha based with similar flavor.

And to answer your earlier question, I would never double up on extra attack. Dead levels are bad.

[Nifft]

The main problem with the paladin barbarian is it MAD needing str, con, cha and a 14 dex for optimal medium armor. My example build on the guide above used a tortle to negate the dex reliance.

... or 20 Con / 20 Dex for fighting naked.

Which is one reason Barbarians are awesome.

[Quoxis]

There is no other multiclass requirement: I would parenthetically be dropping paladin entirely, in favour of the cleric multiclass. (Bleric? Clearian?)

I'm kinda new at this: Not dumb. :smalltongue:

Edit: I may also be dumb.

Whoops, in that case pretend i didn't say a thing.

[S_A_M I AM]

Cleric isn’t the best combination with barbarian. In combat you want to rage and almost all the cleric spells you’d want to cast are concentration so it only helps out of combat. The reason cleric was suggested (I presume) was to help slot progression to make smiting with paladin more frequent. So something like barb 6/pal 2/caster x is a good idea. Divine soul sorcerer or celestial warlock are both cha based with similar flavor.

And to answer your earlier question, I would never double up on extra attack. Dead levels are bad.

There are potentially two mitigating factors here:
1. It's not actually a dead level until 11th level. That's weather or not I commit myself to going Barbarian 6 first and I have no idea how long the game is even going to be going for.

2. Given that one of the reasons to keep investing in another spellcaster is for more spell slots without necessarily a lot of benefits coming from an increased spell list (particularly if I'm many caster levels behind the party and should be focusing on tanking and attacking: Being a specialist.)

So it's not actually a dead level. Going Sorcerer 1 instead of Paladin 5 still gets me +3 smites a day instead of +2 smites and lower level spells for the moments that I'm not going to be smiting and worse lay on hands and an opportunity cost for the Cha to saves later.

I'm not saying you're wrong: I just want to know if I'm off base here.

[PeteNutButter]

There are potentially two mitigating factors here:
1. It's not actually a dead level until 11th level. That's weather or not I commit myself to going Barbarian 6 first and I have no idea how long the game is even going to be going for.

2. Given that one of the reasons to keep investing in another spellcaster is for more spell slots without necessarily a lot of benefits coming from an increased spell list (particularly if I'm many caster levels behind the party and should be focusing on tanking and attacking: Being a specialist.)

So it's not actually a dead level. Going Sorcerer 1 instead of Paladin 5 still gets me +3 smites a day instead of +2 smites and lower level spells for the moments that I'm not going to be smiting and worse lay on hands and an opportunity cost for the Cha to saves later.

I'm not saying you're wrong: I just want to know if I'm off base here.

Aura of Protection is great, but +1/+2 to saves is just good. For a primary barbarian, I wouldn't recommend sorcerer, as none of it really helps you other than slots. You are correct in that.

Bard on the other hand could give you either cutting words, which is great because it's a reaction that is similar to shield while raging, or blade flourish and a FS, which is just downright fantastic. More AC? Aren't you wanting to be tanky? :smallbiggrin:

3 levels in warlock would give you a permanent +1 weapon if you didn't already have one. Plus the ability to "basically" healing word while raging if you go with celestial.

Both of those options make you better at what you're good at: swinging a weapon, while also giving you more smite slots.

[S_A_M I AM]

Aura of Protection is great, but +1/+2 to saves is just good. For a primary barbarian, I wouldn't recommend sorcerer, as none of it really helps you other than slots. You are correct in that.

Bard on the other hand could give you either cutting words, which is great because it's a reaction that is similar to shield while raging, or blade flourish and a FS, which is just downright fantastic. More AC? Aren't you wanting to be tanky? :smallbiggrin:

3 levels in warlock would give you a permanent +1 weapon if you didn't already have one. Plus the ability to "basically" healing word while raging if you go with celestial.

Both of those options make you better at what you're good at: swinging a weapon, while also giving you more smite slots.

I'm pretty sure that we're going to be using the magical weapon rules and I'd be almost existentially disappointed if we'd hit quite high levels without even a single magical,two handed piece of gear.

But a couple of levels of bard sounds sexy as heck. (Doublely so: It's only one level behind on feat/ stat progression and going to Paladin 6 costs me on that too. Should have realised.)

Though cutting words doesn't feel like a big gain: I'm still expecting to be using Spirit Shield as often as possible and only two uses of cutting words a day. A college of swords bard fits almost perfectly though. (Admittedly what has sold me is the +6 Smites by the time it rolls around.)

It's also pushing me further towards sword and board. Which feels like a good choice at the arse end of the character arc.

Everybody?
Thank you: This has actually slotted together VERY well and its been fun getting advice from you all.:smallsmile:

Final build:

Stats:
Strength 17
Dexterity12
Constitution 14
Wisdom 10
Intelligence 7
Charisma 14

Barbarian 4 (Ancestral Guardian.) Feat: Dragon Hide or Athlete to round up my strength mod a little with some benefit. (Admittedly: Benefit that goes away fairly soon afterwards with Dragon Hide. Probably athlete because of that.)

Paladin 2 (Defence style and so I can get a little smiting in a little earlier.)

Barbarian 6.

Paladin 4. (Order of the Crown.) Tough feat. (It's a larger boost than a bonus to my constitution would be.)

Bard X (Three levels minimum, four probable. College of swords. Duelling style.) Max my strength.

Paladin X (Probably two. Because I'll be around the curve with my number of smites per day and if we're this late into the game I doubt optimisation matters all that much anymore.)

Also: I am definitely staying with the Brass Dragonborn. I was chatting with another player last night and they're hoping to play the Pyromancer from the Kaladesh PDF possibly with a cleric dip so they can heal with holy fire. (Incorrigible wanker that she is.)

[Arkhios]

I'm partial towards the portmonteau "Palbarian" because it flows in same phonetic way as Barbarian does. Also, a highly charismatic Palbarian is every melee character's best Pal! :smallcool:

[Caelic]

I'm partial towards the portmonteau "Palbarian" because it flows in same phonetic way as Barbarian does. Also, a highly charismatic Palbarian is every melee character's best Pal! :smallcool:

Hey, so does "Barbaradin!" ;)

[MrStabby]

If you get good stats in your rolling I would be tempted by taking lore bard for expertise in athletics and taking shield master. Between rage for advantage, primary strength and expertise you should be able to shove mountains.