What are the current meta's in the game with XGtE out now?

[Trey Bright]

So now that Xanthar's Guide to Everything has been out for a while now, what are the new most powerful builds?

A. What class and subclass:
1. have the highest damage out put?
2. can tank the most damage?
3. have the greatest advantage in social situations?
4. are just the toughest to kill?
5. are just the best in your opinion (and why?)

B. What multi-class combination:
1. have the highest damage out put?
2. can tank the most damage?
3. have the greatest advantage in social situations?
4. are just the toughest to kill?
5. are just the best in your opinion (and why?)

And what races/race-variants would you usually use to go with these builds?

EDIT: I'm more of a story trumps rules kind of guy, but I have a friend that's pretty big on mechanics. Because of this, he prefers 3.5 to 5e. Because of that, I'm trying to find something to get him to like 5e. That's the reason for my question.

[Lombra]

"Meta's" what? :tongue:

Hexblade is vastly considered to be the subclass with the most impact of the book, it gives damage and SADness to melee gishes, and there's an half-elf elven accuracy polearm master great weapon master darkness-devil's sight combo out there.

But I wouldn't bother with the "best" options, any option is viable in this edition, so the meta really revolves around having fun.

[Unoriginal]

Toughest to kill is probably the Zealot Barbarian

[rigsmal]

Haven't touched 5e in a while, sorcadin still a top-tier build or have things surpassed it significantly?

[LeonBH]

Haven't touched 5e in a while, sorcadin still a top-tier build or have things surpassed it significantly?

Things have not yet surpassed it significantly, but I think it's getting rivaled.

[Talamare]

2. can tank the most damage?
4. are just the toughest to kill?

Bearogue is the most survivable
Ancestrogue can probably reduce the team's damage by more tho

[Trey Bright]

Bearogue is the most survivable
Ancestrogue can probably reduce the team's damage by more tho

Bearbarian and Rogue? Would you play a dex-barb to mesh with the rouge levels?

[Talamare]

Bearbarian and Rogue? Would you play a dex-barb to mesh with the rouge levels?

No
Rage works on Strength based Attacks
Sneak Attack works on Finesse based Weapons, Not Dex based Attacks.

[tomato]

No
Rage works on Strength based Attacks
Sneak Attack works on Finesse based Weapons, Not Dex based Attacks.

There's a methodology that picks up rogue/barbarian as means to avoid damage. You play a dex-focused character so you can be SAD, then tack on damage resistance, then pickup uncanny dodge to further reduce said damage. Usually it goes Barb 5/rogue X for extra attack and more rages/day, but there are barb 3 or even barb 2 variations.

Personally, I think its kind of a pointless build. If you want to be unkillable or have infinite HP, I always feel like going straight barbarian or going with an armor of agathys-based build is just always better.

[Talamare]

There's a methodology that picks up rogue/barbarian as means to avoid damage. You play a dex-focused character so you can be SAD, then tack on damage resistance, then pickup uncanny dodge to further reduce said damage. Usually it goes Barb 5/rogue X for extra attack and more rages/day, but there are barb 3 or even barb 2 variations.

Personally, I think its kind of a pointless build. If you want to be unkillable or have infinite HP, I always feel like going straight barbarian or going with an armor of agathys-based build is just always better.

160 damage Dex Save Fire Spell

Save Failed -
Pure Barb - 160 damage, Probably Dead
AoA Lock - 160 damage, Probably Dead
Bearbarian - 80 damage
Bearogue - 40 damage

Save Success
Pure Barb - 80 damage
AoA Lock - 80 damage
Bearbarian - 40 damage
Bearogue - 0 damage

[LeonBH]

There's a methodology that picks up rogue/barbarian as means to avoid damage. You play a dex-focused character so you can be SAD, then tack on damage resistance, then pickup uncanny dodge to further reduce said damage. Usually it goes Barb 5/rogue X for extra attack and more rages/day, but there are barb 3 or even barb 2 variations.

Personally, I think its kind of a pointless build. If you want to be unkillable or have infinite HP, I always feel like going straight barbarian or going with an armor of agathys-based build is just always better.

The synergy between Reckless Attack and Sneak Attack means you can always get your advantage/sneak attack off every round.

The synergy between Danger Sense and Evasion means you are better at dex saving throws than either the rogue or the barbarian.

The synergy between Rage and Uncanny Dodge means you are incredibly tough to kill, dividing the damage from a single attack by 4.

There are other synergies between the two classes. Rage + Expertise for superior grappling, Fast Movement + Cunning Action for superior mobility, Feral Instinct + Brutal Critical + Assassinate means nastier surprise rounds...

[Naerytar]

"Meta's" what? :tongue:

You say it sarcastically, but I really really hate that term. It's used in competitive games and doesn't translate to a cooperative games like D&D at all.

Firstly, there isn't a cohesive community or tournament scene in D&D like in online games, tabletop wargames, TCGs, etc. It's a loosely coupled collection of individual gaming groups, each with it's own DM and probably own set of house rules.

And secondly, metagame doesn't mean "trends" or "current releases and it's consequences". It's literally a different level of game, that you are trying to win, to get a competitive advantage. And if you're trying to win D&D, you're going against the core spirit of the game.

Keep competitive slang in competitive games, please.

[KorvinStarmast]

Keep competitive slang in competitive games, please. I would suggest directing your comments to the OP, rather than the blue text response. (I mostly concur with your sentiments).

[Silkensword]

Gloom stalker 3 / fighter 11 has a ****ton of Nova :)

[Caelic]

Paladin/Warlock also has a substantial nova capability, thanks to the potential for double-smiting.

[Lombra]

You say it sarcastically, but I really really hate that term. It's used in competitive games and doesn't translate to a cooperative games like D&D at all.

Firstly, there isn't a cohesive community or tournament scene in D&D like in online games, tabletop wargames, TCGs, etc. It's a loosely coupled collection of individual gaming groups, each with it's own DM and probably own set of house rules.

And secondly, metagame doesn't mean "trends" or "current releases and it's consequences". It's literally a different level of game, that you are trying to win, to get a competitive advantage. And if you're trying to win D&D, you're going against the core spirit of the game.

Keep competitive slang in competitive games, please.

I was actually pointing out the grammatical error in the title (he should have written "metas", the plural of meta, not "meta's" which means "of the meta", apostrophes matter :smallsmile:), but I 100% agree with you.

[BigONotation]

There always seems to be one obviously broken option in each new book and in this one it's the Hexblade. I've already eliminated it from the realm of possibility at my table. A homebrew-buffed Pact of the Blade already does everything the Hexblade is intended to.

[poolio]

So far just from play i can tell you the new gloom ranger (i think that's what it's called, I'm afb right now) is completely op, at least in the OotA campaign I'm running, the guy is literally invisible all the time!

[Oramac]

Worrying about a Meta is, imo, dangerously close to treating D&D like World of Warcraft. If that's your thing, I guess it's cool, but to me it just feels wrong.


[COLOR="#0000FF"]But I wouldn't bother with the "best" options, any option is viable in this edition, so the meta really revolves around having fun.

This. Have fun.


Toughest to kill is probably the Zealot Barbarian

I was going to say Oath of Conquest Paladin, so long as the enemies aren't immune to being Frightened.

[Trey Bright]

Worrying about a Meta is, imo, dangerously close to treating D&D like World of Warcraft. If that's your thing, I guess it's cool, but to me it just feels wrong.



This. Have fun.



I was going to say Oath of Conquest Paladin, so long as the enemies aren't immune to being Frightened.
I'm more of a story trumps rules kind of guy, but I have a friend that's pretty big on mechanics. Because of this, he prefers 3.5 to 5e. Because of this, I'm trying to find something to get him to like 5e. That's the reason for my question.

[Trey Bright]

So far just from play i can tell you the new gloom ranger (i think that's what it's called, I'm afb right now) is completely op, at least in the OotA campaign I'm running, the guy is literally invisible all the time!

XD I never thought of that! It'd probably start out OP, but I imagine it would get annoying fast.


There always seems to be one obviously broken option in each new book and in this one it's the Hexblade. I've already eliminated it from the realm of possibility at my table. A homebrew-buffed Pact of the Blade already does everything the Hexblade is intended to.

What homebrew are you using? And what problems exactly do you have with it?


You say it sarcastically, but I really really hate that term. It's used in competitive games and doesn't translate to a cooperative games like D&D at all.

Firstly, there isn't a cohesive community or tournament scene in D&D like in online games, tabletop wargames, TCGs, etc. It's a loosely coupled collection of individual gaming groups, each with it's own DM and probably own set of house rules.

And secondly, metagame doesn't mean "trends" or "current releases and it's consequences". It's literally a different level of game, that you are trying to win, to get a competitive advantage. And if you're trying to win D&D, you're going against the core spirit of the game.

Keep competitive slang in competitive games, please.

I'm more of a story trumps rules kind of guy, but I have a friend that's pretty big on mechanics. Because of this, he prefers 3.5 to 5e. Because of this, I'm trying to find something to get him to like 5e. That's the reason for my question and the wording.

[Trey Bright]

The synergy between Reckless Attack and Sneak Attack means you can always get your advantage/sneak attack off every round.

The synergy between Danger Sense and Evasion means you are better at dex saving throws than either the rogue or the barbarian.

The synergy between Rage and Uncanny Dodge means you are incredibly tough to kill, dividing the damage from a single attack by 4.

There are other synergies between the two classes. Rage + Expertise for superior grappling, Fast Movement + Cunning Action for superior mobility, Feral Instinct + Brutal Critical + Assassinate means nastier surprise rounds...

Holy s***! That's crazy! I would love a gestalt 5e as an assassin zealot!

[Mikal]

The synergy between Reckless Attack and Sneak Attack means you can always get your advantage/sneak attack off every round.

Just remember you still have to make the attack with Strength for it to qualify for Reckless Attack, so you're either MAD (Needing Dex, Str, AND Con potentially) or you're going as a Strength based Rogue/Barb with 14 in Dex. Which is a thing. See: Conan the Barbarian

[GlenSmash!]

Just remember you still have to make the attack with Strength for it to qualify for Reckless Attack, so you're either MAD (Needing Dex, Str, AND Con potentially) or you're going as a Strength based Rogue/Barb with 14 in Dex. Which is a thing. See: Conan the Barbarian

I don't see this as too much of an issue. Every Barbarian Needs Str, Dex, and, Con.

They also benefit highly from having a decent Wis.

Welcome to the MAD world of Barbarians.

[Mikal]

I don't see this as too much of an issue. Every Barbarian Needs Str, Dex, and, Con.

They also benefit highly from having a decent Wis.

Welcome to the MAD world of Barbarians.

That's why I love Hexblades.
Speaking of, I think the following Hexblade combinations will be extremely viable, and can combat Sorcadins on the power curve. Note I'm trying to actually make these Hexblade builds, not just Hexblade dips since those are very well known:

1) Hexblade 12/Oathbreaker Paladin 8: Your new capstone is Charisma to damage on your chosen weapon 3 times- Hex Warrior, Lifedrinker, and Aura of Hate. And you get it at 19th level! You can smite all day long with Paladin slots for Paladin smites and Warlock slots with Eldritch Smite, your saving throws are nasty, and you can boss some undead around for fun.

2) Hexblade 12/College of Swords Bard 8: You gain Second Attack, pseudo-Fighter maneuvers, and a good selection of Bard spells to add to your repertoire while keeping your HD the same. Limited fighting style choices do lock you into TWF or Dueling if you want to make the most of it. Plus an additional 10 ft. of movement whenever you take the Attack Action (regardless if you use a bardic inspiration die)

3) Hexblade 12/Battlemaster 8: Similar to the above, except you trade in Bard spellcasting and better DCs on your maneuvers for more maneuvers per day with better synergy (short rest refresh), more HP, Action Surge, and free rein on fighting styles, and an additional Feat/ASI. You can mitigate the lower DCs by using maneuvers that don't require them often or at all.

and what is slowly becoming my personal favorite idea (though have to see it in action...)
4) Hexblade 12/Battlemaster 4/College of Swords 4: You get both types of maneuvers (though the Blade's are slightly weaker since you're using d6's instead of 8s)- 5 per long rest, 4 per short, Action Surge, some Bard casting and slightly better HP. You also gain two fighting styles, giving you some versatility. You lose out on class-based Second Attack, so you have to keep Thirsting Blade as well as the extra movement when you attack.

Edit: Additional Bonus- Blade Flourish and Maneuvers stack! You can do one of each per turn, so you can really pile it on. Just a few examples I can think of...
Precision Attack plus Defensive Flourish for Offense (attack AND damage) and Defensive (AC) buffs
Pushing Attack while also using Pushing Flourish to move them to a spot you want that can easily force them to Dash to get back into range for melee against others
Slashing Flourish plus Sweeping Attack to attack someone within 5 feet of you for 1d8+1d6 damage in addition to your regular attack
While the last option is kind of weak, the others do work well.

Unfortunately they don't mix with attack cantrips, else Slashing+Sweeping would be great with Green Flame Blade, and you could Riposte+Pushing Attack or even Riposte+Pushing+Booming Blade

...Who would have thought the true weaponmaster would be a Charisma SAD gish? You can use this with GWM. You can use it with TWF. You can even use it equally in ranged and melee attack (archery fighting style and duelist) with your pact weapon being the ranged option because Blade Flourish doesn't require melee.

I..I think I need to write a guide.

[Oramac]

Just remember you still have to make the attack with Strength for it to qualify for Reckless Attack, so you're either MAD (Needing Dex, Str, AND Con potentially) or you're going as a Strength based Rogue/Barb with 14 in Dex. Which is a thing. See: Conan the Barbarian

27 point buy: 15, 15, 15, 8, 8, 8

Loads of fun, and meets the MC requirements.

[Drayrs]

That's why I love Hexblades.

...


...Who would have thought the true weaponmaster would be a Charisma SAD gish? You can use this with GWM. You can use it with TWF. You can even use it equally in ranged and melee attack (archery fighting style and duelist) with your pact weapon being the ranged option because Blade Flourish doesn't require melee.

Check this out:
Eldritch Knight 7 / Hexblade 3
https://pastebin.com/sHPLa1GT

I wanted to mess around with Hexblade as an alternate character for a campaign I'm playing, and this is what I came up with. The goal was to use War Magic to combine Eldritch Blast and a Heavy Crossbow. Point buy, very SAD, only needs Dex for multi-classing and a bit more AC. Elven Accuracy is insane if your party can proc advantage somehow.

Hexblade is fun times.

[Mjolnirbear]

Hexblade isn't broken, but it is even more front loaded than other warlocks and bladelocks all cry looking at Hexblade. You can't SS or Polearm Master or GWM with it unless you go Blade pact. Problem, yes. Broken, no.

My personal homebrew fix is: take Hex Warrior, and give it to all bladelocks. It now requires a three-level investment for dips, fixes the other lock patrons for Blade, and its power level is now much closer to other patrons.

It's either that, or make it a blade-only invocation. The problem with that is it's another invocation tax for Blade, and bladelocks already suffer under suck taxes. There's the argument that straight up giving it to bladelocks flips the bird at the other pacts, but I disagree, because the other pacts have straight up more flexibility in their builds.

[Caelic]

The synergy between Reckless Attack and Sneak Attack means you can always get your advantage/sneak attack off every round.

...and leads to the highly amusing image of the roguebarian brandishing his dagger in two hands like a greatsword, charging forth, and wildly plunging it into his opponent while bellowing "I'M SNEAK ATTACKING YOU! RRRRAAAAAAAGGGGH!"

[guachi]

I think that'd be enough to disorient the opponent enough to allow a sneak attack. Good show!

[Silkensword]

Doesn't work, sneak attack requires finesse weapon be used

[GlenSmash!]

Doesn't work, sneak attack requires finesse weapon be used

What doesn't work?

A Barbarian/Rogue can Sneak Attack and Reckless Attack with a Rapier or any finesse weapon if using Strength.

[GlenSmash!]

27 point buy: 15, 15, 15, 8, 8, 8

Loads of fun, and meets the MC requirements.

Yup that works.

For me that's too many 15s, 14 will do just fine. 16, 14, 14, 10 12, 8 is a Fine Barbarian and works for the Rogue MC, and can be done with VHuman and Standard array.

If you're willing to go Standard Human 16, 14, 14, 12, 14, 9 is pretty great too. Or even 14, 14, 14, 14, 14 ,11. I find that with Reckless Attack that the difference between 14 and 16 in Strength becomes less significant, hardly even noticeable actually. You can still max Strength if you want.