Building a Bard as a spellcaster

[AcerbicOrb]

Okay, so, basically, I want to create a spellcaster character for a Pathfinder game I'm playing with my friends. The only catch is - I want that character to be a Bard. Is it horribly unoptimised? Yes. Am I doing it anyway? Yeah.

Any ideas?

Ability scores are point buy with a 25 point budget.

Core preffered, but third party stuff might be allowed.

[weckar]

What are you asking, exactly? It seems that you've got it quite figured out?

[AcerbicOrb]

I'm just asking what feats, traits, stuff like that, I can use to make my Bard into more of a spellcaster.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, you've got a full caster level, and qualify for all of the magic item creation feats. This is useful, especially in pathfinder where missing a non-feat requirement is just a slight increase to the Spellcraft DC. You've also got UMD as a class skill. The Magician Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/Bard/archetypes/paizo-bard-archetypes/magician) could help with that by boosting your spellcraft, UMD, and KN(Arcana) considerably.

Craft Wondrous at 3rd, Craft Magic Arms & Armor at 5th, then Craft Construct at 7th lets you make some nifty things, the niftiest of all being the Trompe l'oeil (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/trompe-l-oeil-cr-1/), which in turn lets you make things that cast for you.

[AcerbicOrb]

I was leaning towards the Duettist archetype actually, for the familiar. Hmmm.

[Kurald Galain]

Is it horribly unoptimised?

No. No, it isn't.

As classes go, the bard is perfectly fine.

Now what level will you be playing? And do you see this bard as a buffer, debuffer, battlefield controller, healer, frontliner, or any particular combination thereof? That does impact the feat and spell choice, of course :smallsmile:

[AcerbicOrb]

No. No, it isn't.

As classes go, the bard is perfectly fine.

Now what level will you be playing? And do you see this bard as a buffer, debuffer, battlefield controller, healer, frontliner, or any particular combination thereof? That does impact the feat and spell choice, of course :smallsmile:

Ah, I'm not saying the Bard is a bad class - just that it isn't designed to be a primary caster. As for my exact role... I don't know what the rest of the party are playing, so I want him to be pretty versatile. Preferably a supporting role, buffing, healing, that sort of thing; but I'd like some offensive powers too.

[Kurald Galain]

Ah, I'm not saying the Bard is a bad class - just that it isn't designed to be a primary caster. As for my exact role... I don't know what the rest of the party are playing, so I want him to be pretty versatile. Preferably a supporting role, buffing, healing, that sort of thing; but I'd like soe offensive powers too.

So, I'm guessing level 20, yes? :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

I was leaning towards the Duettist archetype actually, for the familiar. Hmmm.

Familiar Bond (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/familiar-bond/) gets you the familiar without that archetype. It can't do performances, but can do all the other familiary stuff.

For a caster bard I would definitely do Magician Sound Striker.

[Geddy2112]

Bards are easily powerful enough to make full casters-the big caveat is that most of their magic is enchantment and illusion, so against enemies immune to these tricks, you need to have a backup plan.

Magician is strong as others have suggested, but it is not the only game in town. If your party is a bunch of magic types it rocks, but if they are all BSF sword swingers inspire courage gets way more mileage. If you want to focus on enchantment spells, lotus geisha gives you free spell focus(enchantment) and greater in exchange for bardic knowledge and lore master. If you throw lotus geisha on a kitsune which get a +1 to enchantment DC's and a racial bonus to charisma, you have a really strong enchantment debuffer encounter ender.

Animal speaker and voice of the wild get expanded spells-the former gets SNA if you want to be a mini summoner, the latter can grab any ranger or druid spells at 1st and every 3rd level after(up to 16) to help round out your spells. Dirge bard gets necromancy spells from any arcane list to round out and improve casting, as well as the ability to use mind affecting spells against undead so long as they are not restricted to humanoids. Mute musicians get bonus abjuration, conjuration(calling/summoning/teleportation) spells added to their list and eschew materials as a bonus feat. Flame dancer gets a few fire blast spells at level 8 and some fire based performances by trading out situational performances. Studious librarian gets a few times a day to cast spells off a scroll using a bard slot(but not destroying the scroll), and at level 20 can effectively pick and choose their spell list by using scrolls to permanently add spells to their spells known.

Sandman is good if you want to focus on stealthy spells-you can steal spells from enemies with a touch, and increase your DC's against targets denied their dex against your magic. Sandman and brazed deceiver also give you the ability to conceal your spells through performance, if casting in plain sight is something you are interested in. Brazen deceiver adds some extra utility spells to your list instead of granting versatile performance.

For feats, spellsong is good if you want to use spells with duration(concentration) as you can spend rounds of bardic performance to concentrate, allowing you to fire off other spells. This is very strong for an illusionist. You can also use spellsong to cast in plain sight, masking it as performing. The conceal spell feat also allows this but is much easier to see through, although it is an at will bonus instead of costing perform rounds. Improved initiative is good for any caster, and if you are focused on a school of magic then spell focus for DC's. Spell penetration is never bad, but it depends on the type of spells you are throwing. Lingering performance is a must for almost every bard. For traits, irrepressible makes dumping wis incredibly safe as you add your CHA instead of WIS to saves against charm/compulsions(enchantments).

As a caster bard, you really only need to max charisma, then dex/con, and you can dump everything else as low as you see fit. If you take pageant of the peacock, you can dump intelligence and eschew ranks in INT based skills and perform when needed. The shadow conjuration and shadow evocation spells are key, as they can mimic a lot of spells you either have on your list but don't want to waste spells known on, or nab spells off other lists for utility. Shadow enchantment comes online a bit late and you generally have the enchantment spells already, but is good if you went illusion heavy.

Some of your big deal spells are grease, glitterdust, haste, slow, confusion, dispel magic, and black tentacles. You can find a use for at least 2 of these in pretty much any combat, and while a lot of bard spells are not that useful in combat, you generally only need to use 2-4 spells per combat and you can just spamcast as needed. Buffs like heroism, invisibility, and good hope are also handy. Arcane concordance is strong if you have other casters, but casting it just for your own use is never bad- it gives you free extend spell without need of a feat.

[Wartex1]

Well, you've got a full caster level, and qualify for all of the magic item creation feats. This is useful, especially in pathfinder where missing a non-feat requirement is just a slight increase to the Spellcraft DC. You've also got UMD as a class skill. The Magician Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/Bard/archetypes/paizo-bard-archetypes/magician) could help with that by boosting your spellcraft, UMD, and KN(Arcana) considerably.

Craft Wondrous at 3rd, Craft Magic Arms & Armor at 5th, then Craft Construct at 7th lets you make some nifty things, the niftiest of all being the Trompe l'oeil (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/trompe-l-oeil-cr-1/), which in turn lets you make things that cast for you.

I've been looking to make a construct crafter for quite some time, but the limiting factor was cost of production plus construct lifetime. Before I was considering Clockwork Animated Objects (Animated Objects are by far the cheapest Construct of each CR save Tiny ones, and Clockwork constructs are easily healed by Clockwork Servants), but the Trompe l'oiel template makes things super cheap, though more limited by CL, and opens things up to every other intelligent creature as well, so a CL 19 caster can make a Trompe l'oiel Banshee for only 11,500 gp, which is super cheap for a construct as strong as a Banshee, and any creature with manufactured weapons/armor gets a free enhancement bonus and the CR increase means nothing since the production cost is based off of HD!

Thanks. This makes a construct creator that much easier, especially if I can find other abilities that work off of a painter theme.

[Jack_Simth]

I've been looking to make a construct crafter for quite some time, but the limiting factor was cost of production plus construct lifetime. Before I was considering Clockwork Animated Objects (Animated Objects are by far the cheapest Construct of each CR save Tiny ones, and Clockwork constructs are easily healed by Clockwork Servants), but the Trompe l'oiel template makes things super cheap, though more limited by CL, and opens things up to every other intelligent creature as well, so a CL 19 caster can make a Trompe l'oiel Banshee for only 11,500 gp, which is super cheap for a construct as strong as a Banshee, and any creature with manufactured weapons/armor gets a free enhancement bonus and the CR increase means nothing since the production cost is based off of HD!

Thanks. This makes a construct creator that much easier, especially if I can find other abilities that work off of a painter theme.

Some notes:
Similar to magic items such as a Headband of Mental Prowess, the Caster Level is not a requirement for construction! It is, however, part of the DC you have to beat. So if you've got a good Spellcraft modifier (and the OP's bard, if going with that particular Archetype, would have a nice Spellcraft modifier), you can actually make paintings of creatures with more levels than yourself. If you don't have any of the spells (which you might not, on a bard), the DC becomes 15 + critter hit dice. For, oh, a Ghaele (13 hit dice), that'd be DC 28. 10 (taking 10), + 10 (ranks), +3 (class skill for bards) = 23. Think you can get +7 between Int, items, feats, alternate class features, and traits? The Archetype I mentioned would be good for +5 on that bard all by itself, and the Theoretical Magician (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/theoretical-magician/) trait is good for a +2.
It's generally assumed that a construct you make is under your control. Golems explicitly say this. The Trompe L'Oeil does not explicitly mention control one way or the other, nor does the construct type, nor does the craft construct feat. Yes, there's clear mention in the creature entry of them being built as spies and such, so it's a reasonable inference that the creator has control... but your mileage may vary depending on your DM. I'd suggest treating them nice and only giving them orders that are more or less in line with the base critter.

[Wartex1]

Holy crap you're right. It's CL isn't listed under the requirements like most constructs, so you don't need to meet at as per usual.

[Jack_Simth]

Holy crap you're right. It's CL isn't listed under the requirements like most constructs, so you don't need to meet at as per usual.
Yeah... Pathfinder got Ice Assasin back, but accessible much earlier. Usually cheaper, and more ... recyclable... but there's caveats. Do pay attention to the second note as well.

[Psyren]

Yeah... Pathfinder got Ice Assasin back, but accessible much earlier. Usually cheaper, and more ... recyclable... but there's caveats. Do pay attention to the second note as well.

Hardly - unlike IA, nothing actually gives you control over it. You can certainly have an intent in mind when you create it, and it may even act in accordance with that intent, but as an NPC it is ultimately under the GM's purview.

Some specific constructs do grant you dominance, like golems and homunculi.

[Geddy2112]

so a CL 19 caster can make a Trompe l'oiel Banshee for only 11,500 gp, which is super cheap for a construct as strong as a Banshee,
"Creating a Trompe L’oeil

“Trompe l’oeil” is an inherited template that can be added to any corporeal creature that has an Intelligence score (referred to hereafter as the base creature)."

No incorporeals, but you could create a Trompe l'oeil of anything else which is pretty awesome.

[Wartex1]

"Creating a Trompe L’oeil

“Trompe l’oeil” is an inherited template that can be added to any corporeal creature that has an Intelligence score (referred to hereafter as the base creature)."

No incorporeals, but you could create a Trompe l'oeil of anything else which is pretty awesome.

No banshees kinda sucks, but with just how strong this is, I think I have a new idea for a BBEG in a campaign. Just a regular 5th level Expert who pumped Craft(Paintings) as a way to make some money who just happened to get a magic paintbrush which allows him to make Trompe L'oiels, and he considers his paintings his children.

[noob]

In addition he could possibly use that Master Craftsman feat that allowed to create magic items without being a caster.

[Jack_Simth]

Hardly - unlike IA, nothing actually gives you control over it. You can certainly have an intent in mind when you create it, and it may even act in accordance with that intent, but as an NPC it is ultimately under the GM's purview.

Some specific constructs do grant you dominance, like golems and homunculi.
You're stepping in a few posts into a conversation and apparently missing prior ones in the chain. Rewinding a bit and adding some emphasis, so you have exactly what I was referring to when I told Wartex1 to pay attention to the second note:


Some notes:
Similar to magic items such as a Headband of Mental Prowess, the Caster Level is not a requirement for construction! It is, however, part of the DC you have to beat. So if you've got a good Spellcraft modifier (and the OP's bard, if going with that particular Archetype, would have a nice Spellcraft modifier), you can actually make paintings of creatures with more levels than yourself. If you don't have any of the spells (which you might not, on a bard), the DC becomes 15 + critter hit dice. For, oh, a Ghaele (13 hit dice), that'd be DC 28. 10 (taking 10), + 10 (ranks), +3 (class skill for bards) = 23. Think you can get +7 between Int, items, feats, alternate class features, and traits? The Archetype I mentioned would be good for +5 on that bard all by itself, and the Theoretical Magician (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/theoretical-magician/) trait is good for a +2.
It's generally assumed that a construct you make is under your control. Golems explicitly say this. The Trompe L'Oeil does not explicitly mention control one way or the other, nor does the construct type, nor does the craft construct feat. Yes, there's clear mention in the creature entry of them being built as spies and such, so it's a reasonable inference that the creator has control... but your mileage may vary depending on your DM. I'd suggest treating them nice and only giving them orders that are more or less in line with the base critter. (emphasis added)

[noob]

You can make Trompe L'Oeil of amalgams of your creature and an homonculus under your control thus making a Trompe L'Oeil that obeys you.

[Psyren]

You're stepping in a few posts into a conversation and apparently missing prior ones in the chain. Rewinding a bit and adding some emphasis, so you have exactly what I was referring to when I told Wartex1 to pay attention to the second note:

(emphasis added)

You said that earlier but then concluded that it is "Pathfinder Ice Assassin" when that is not the case. I was pointing out the contradiction.


You can make Trompe L'Oeil of amalgams of your creature and an homonculus under your control thus making a Trompe L'Oeil that obeys you.

Amalgam is a third party template.

[Jack_Simth]

You said that earlier but then concluded that it is "Pathfinder Ice Assassin" when that is not the case. I was pointing out the contradiction.Ice Assassin with caveats. One of them being "Might not be under your control with some DM's" - it'll be a relatively short list (compared to the list of all DM's, though), though, as few DM's will look into it that fully. It doesn't say you don't get control, after all, and it's implied that you do (otherwise, they're hard to use as spies...). I thought I'd made that quite clear.