Blades or Valor for archer bard?

[JAL_1138]

Simple title, simple question.

Building an archer bard with a level of Fighter for Con save proficiency and Archery Fighting Style. Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter for feats, maaaaybe Elven Accuracy instead of one Dex ASI later on.

So, Blades or Valor? Valor doesn't have much use for its own Bardic Inspirations (but can pass them out to teammates for either a minor damage boost or more importantly and more usefully a poor-man's Shield spell versus a single attack), and Blades' flourishes don't specify a melee weapon, so they can be used with ranged weapons.

The way I read Blades flourishes, you can only use one flourish per turn (I've seen an argument that you can only use one type of flourish per turn, but can spend as many Inspirations as you have on that type of flourish, based on ambiguity in the term "flourish option"—any Sage Advice or errata on that out there?)

At level 14, Valor can use a bonus action to make a weapon attack after casting a spell. This seems like a point in Valor's favor to me--probably the only one--but it's somewhat mooted by the typical tactic of using Swift Quiver, since that allows two bonus action attacks per turn. On the other hand, you're not always going to have either the slots or the Concentration to keep Swift Quiver going. It can also be used with a cantrip learned as a Magical Secret (which would make said cantrip a Bard spell), like Eldritch Blast.


At 14, Blades gets the option to use a d6 as a flourish die without spending an Inspiration, so it can keep using it every turn. Not much extra damage, but the flourishes give some neat control, damage to another creature, or AC-buff options.

So, which Bard is best for an archer? Is Blades just flat-out better, or is Battle Magic useful enough to keep Valor bards in the running?

[Easy_Lee]

For your build, Blade is probably superior due to flourishes.

[Lombra]

Definately Valor. Blades' abilities are very melee-focused

[JAL_1138]

Blades' abilities are very melee-focused

Not really? Nothing in the wording of the Flourishes specifies a melee weapon. Just "a weapon attack." By RAW they work with ranged weapons (including Slashing Flourish, strangely enough).

The only melee-specific things they've got are two Fighting Style choices (and a Fighter dip for Archery style moots that, largely, though an extra Fighting Style is nice for versatility) and the ability to use a melee weapon as a spellcasting focus (largely irrelevant; Valor can't use any weapon as a focus, so it's moot for an archer).

[nirurin]

Not really? Nothing in the wording of the Flourishes specifies a melee weapon. Just "a weapon attack." By RAW they work with ranged weapons (including Slashing Flourish, strangely enough).

The only melee-specific things they've got are two Fighting Style choices (and a Fighter dip for Archery style moots that, largely, though an extra Fighting Style is nice for versatility) and the ability to use a melee weapon as a spellcasting focus (largely irrelevant; Valor can't use any weapon as a focus, so it's moot for an archer).

Also you can hold any 2 handed weapon in one hand to cast spells with a free hand, so you can always just quickly draw a dagger in your offhand (free item interaction) and use it as a focus for spells for a turn.

I was about to start my own thread asking a very similar question, though I was thinking of Swords Bard + Hand Crossbow + Crossbow Mastery. Means that you can hold a single Handbow, and fire 3 times per turn after level 6.

[Chunkosaurus]

Is the blade bard a better Arcane archer than the Arcane Archer?

[Dudewithknives]

Is the blade bard a better Arcane archer than the Arcane Archer?

Considering the arcane archer has to:

1. Use a short bow or longbow only, no crossbows.
2. Does not cast any spells despite being an ARCANE archer
3. Never gets any more uses of their core ability past level 3
4. Only gets to use them 2 times per short rest anyway, unlike a battle master who gets a minimum of 4 and then more later.


On Topic:

Valor is better in my opinion, you will get very little use out of the fighting styles from blades.
Although you will not get a lot of use from the shields from Valor.

[Finlam]

Is the blade bard a better Arcane archer than the Arcane Archer?
I would think so, since they are also a full caster can steal the best archery spells i.e. swift-quiver and at level 14 they have infinite uses of their primary function vs 2 or 3 for the Arcane Archer.

On the other hand, the Arcane Archer has more ASI/feats, and more attacks. With proper feat selection it may be better, but kind of boring.

For another point, the blade bard can pick up Elven accuracy and greater invisibility. Allowing for a full combat of constant try-vantage. I would imagine this would boost their DPS considerably, especially if they picked up Sharpshooter.

[nirurin]

Hmm. Elven Accuracy + Crossbow Mastery + Sharpshooter, with Greater Invisibility. Hand Crossbow.

Three shots every turn, each with Advantage, Each at +10 damage, each with 3 dice for the advantage.

Could be pretty crit-tastic.

[miburo]

Swords Bard Flourishes really look like they were meant for melee weapons. In particular, Slashing Flourish doesn't really work with a ranged weapon. It says you cause extra damage to target you hit and to a creature of your choice within 5 feet of you, not within 5 feet of the target. RAW that breaks completely if you are firing a ranged weapon at someone not within 5 feet of you.

[nirurin]

Swords Bard Flourishes really look like they were meant for melee weapons. In particular, Slashing Flourish doesn't really work with a ranged weapon. It says you cause extra damage to target you hit and to a creature of your choice within 5 feet of you, not within 5 feet of the target. RAW that breaks completely if you are firing a ranged weapon at someone not within 5 feet of you.


It still works, mechanically. If you have an enemy near you, you shoot at a -different- far off enemy, and then you get to do damage to the guy near you with the butt of your crossbow.

It's a little odd, but it completely works RAW and doesn't break anything. You could be doing the close-range AoE damage with a flurry of knife throws or something.

If anything, Mobile Flourish is the one that seems to not work, but it does include the limit of "up to your speed" so they do seem to have thought about it in advance.

[JAL_1138]

Considering the arcane archer has to:

1. Use a short bow or longbow only, no crossbows.
2. Does not cast any spells despite being an ARCANE archer
3. Never gets any more uses of their core ability past level 3
4. Only gets to use them 2 times per short rest anyway, unlike a battle master who gets a minimum of 4 and then more later.


On Topic:

Valor is better in my opinion, you will get very little use out of the fighting styles from blades.
Although you will not get a lot of use from the shields from Valor.

Valor gets zero fighting styles (having a melee style you'll only use in a pinch is still better than none), both get medium armor, Blades get Flourishes (which by RAW work with ranged weapons), both will be using hand Xbow (at least when not using Swift Quiver—my VB in League has done the Greater Invis thing, but not w/ Elven Accuracy; works nicely). Real question is whether Battle Magic (one Sharpshooter shot after any spell, even without Swift Quiver) makes up for the loss of the (ranged) Flourishes. I can't quite decide.


It still works, mechanically. If you have an enemy near you, you shoot at a -different- far off enemy, and then you get to do damage to the guy near you with the butt of your crossbow.

It's a little odd, but it completely works RAW and doesn't break anything. You could be doing the close-range AoE damage with a flurry of knife throws or something.

If anything, Mobile Flourish is the one that seems to not work, but it does include the limit of "up to your speed" so they do seem to have thought about it in advance.

Crossbow Expert removes the penalty for shooting in melee range, too, so you can still wade into melee and potentially take (sharpshooter!) shots.

Perhaps you shoot such that the shot grazes the target within 5ft of you? I'm afb so can't look at the precise wording.

But RAW it functions, however silly it may seem when looking at it from a realism perspective, since "melee weapon attack" is never specified in any flourish description, just "weapon attack."

[Lombra]

Not really? Nothing in the wording of the Flourishes specifies a melee weapon. Just "a weapon attack." By RAW they work with ranged weapons (including Slashing Flourish, strangely enough).

The only melee-specific things they've got are two Fighting Style choices (and a Fighter dip for Archery style moots that, largely, though an extra Fighting Style is nice for versatility) and the ability to use a melee weapon as a spellcasting focus (largely irrelevant; Valor can't use any weapon as a focus, so it's moot for an archer).

I'm not saying that the flourishes don't work, just sayin' that they don't work really well with ranged weapons (more precisely: ranged combat). Plus you get no useful fighting style from the subclass. Valor, albeit more team-play focused, works well from range.

If, however, you want to play a gunslinger melee type character, the flourishes are cool, but in order to be used to a great effect, you would need to be in melee range (extra AC is not something you often need if you stay ranged, colsing in with an enemy is not something you should do if you want to stay at range, and hitting something near you shouldn't come up if you stay far from the brawl) I mean you do get extra damage, which is cool, but lose a bunch of riders that really make the subclass shine IMO.

Valor helps the tank stop the enemies coming at you, so it will benefit you if your objective is to stay far and rain arrows on everyone (and you don't get an almost useless fighting style, you already get the one you need from fighter if you do multiclass), but again, a crossbow-brawler type of character would benefit more from the flourishes (and look cooler IMO).

Edit: on top of that, the two level 14 abilities provide different benefits depending on your playstyle, blades' help you more with damage (remember that you are limited to one flourish per turn), while valor's help you more with support.

[Specter]

Valor.

The level3 ability from Blades seems too good, until you realize you have to spend inspiration on it, and that leaves your teammates without it. Valor doesn't get a new resource, but his inspiration is better than anyone else's. And when in doubt, build for teamplay rather than singleplay.

EDIT: Also medium armor, which helps you until you max DEX.

[JAL_1138]

I'm not saying that the flourishes don't work, just sayin' that they don't work really well with ranged weapons (more precisely: ranged combat). Plus you get no useful fighting style from the subclass. Valor, albeit more team-play focused, works well from range.

If, however, you want to play a gunslinger melee type character, the flourishes are cool, but in order to be used to a great effect, you would need to be in melee range (extra AC is not something you often need if you stay ranged, colsing in with an enemy is not something you should do if you want to stay at range, and hitting something near you shouldn't come up if you stay far from the brawl) I mean you do get extra damage, which is cool, but lose a bunch of riders that really make the subclass shine IMO.

Valor helps the tank stop the enemies coming at you, so it will benefit you if your objective is to stay far and rain arrows on everyone (and you don't get an almost useless fighting style, you already get the one you need from fighter if you do multiclass), but again, a crossbow-brawler type of character would benefit more from the flourishes (and look cooler IMO).

Edit: on top of that, the two level 14 abilities provide different benefits depending on your playstyle, blades' help you more with damage (remember that you are limited to one flourish per turn), while valor's help you more with support.

Playstyle varies, what with League. I've been the only significant weapon-damage dealer stuck in melee with Yugoloths before with my existing pre-XGtE Fighter/Valor before. In a non-League game I'm now, currently at lower level, we're all pretty squishy and I've ended up getting flattened by an owlbear. Trying to stay out of melee is a good plan, but plans rarely survive contact with the enemy.

Battle Magic is a pretty fantastic feature though, and Combat Inspiration's AC buff can somewhat help a party of squishies...but on the other hand we're a long way from 14th, and Combat Inspiration still leaves me squishy.

[Lombra]

Playstyle varies, what with League. I've been the only significant weapon-damage dealer stuck in melee with Yugoloths before with my existing pre-XGtE Fighter/Valor before. In a non-League game I'm now, currently at lower level, we're all pretty squishy and I've ended up getting flattened by an owlbear. Trying to stay out of melee is a good plan, but plans rarely survive contact with the enemy.

Battle Magic is a pretty fantastic feature though, and Combat Inspiration's AC buff can somewhat help a party of squishies...but on the other hand we're a long way from 14th, and Combat Inspiration still leaves me squishy.

I feel you. The party with which I regularly play consists of a shadow monk, a rogue/fighter (with a +0 CON), a wild sorcerer and a divination wizard (with one cleric level, bless his soul, cure wounds is our only life saver), nobody is built for the frontline. If I were to replace my character with yours (I play the monk) I would be in a pickle too. Ultimately go for what you feel will be the most fun for you, and let the dice roll.

[nirurin]

I'm not saying that the flourishes don't work, just sayin' that they don't work really well with ranged weapons (more precisely: ranged combat). Plus you get no useful fighting style from the subclass. Valor, albeit more team-play focused, works well from range.

If, however, you want to play a gunslinger melee type character, the flourishes are cool, but in order to be used to a great effect, you would need to be in melee range (extra AC is not something you often need if you stay ranged, colsing in with an enemy is not something you should do if you want to stay at range, and hitting something near you shouldn't come up if you stay far from the brawl) I mean you do get extra damage, which is cool, but lose a bunch of riders that really make the subclass shine IMO.

Valor helps the tank stop the enemies coming at you, so it will benefit you if your objective is to stay far and rain arrows on everyone (and you don't get an almost useless fighting style, you already get the one you need from fighter if you do multiclass), but again, a crossbow-brawler type of character would benefit more from the flourishes (and look cooler IMO).

Edit: on top of that, the two level 14 abilities provide different benefits depending on your playstyle, blades' help you more with damage (remember that you are limited to one flourish per turn), while valor's help you more with support.


This started for me as more of a thought exercise... but it's actually made me think of it seriously as a comparision. Going for Swords Bard, and obviously still keeping the usual crowd-control spell options like Hypnotic Pattern and Dissonant Whispers. Assume level 6 for Extra Attack, and 20 DEX.

TWF Bard (Dual Scimitars) = (1D6 + 5) x3 = 25.5 , Melee Only

TWF w/ Dual Wield (Dual Rapier) = (1D8 + 5) x3 = 28.5, Melee Only

XBow w/ Mastery (Hand-xbows) = (1D6 + 5) x3 = 25.5, Melee and Ranged

XBow w/ Mastery Feat (Heavy Crossbow) = (1D10 +5) x2 = 21, Melee and Ranged

XBow Bard w/ Mastery+Sharpshooter (Hand-xbows) = (1D6 + 5 +10) x3 = 55.5, Melee and Ranged


You can add Elven Accuracy for 3 dice for advantage rolls, which might get you more crits. But you wouldn't be able to get the three feats in before level 12. Normal advantage would hopefully be good enough.

This also has the advantage of Flourish giving you +inspiration dice to your AC. And you can still take a fighting style - Perhaps Duellist, so you can drop your xbow and pull out a Rapier + Shield for closeup work.

It 'looks' pretty cool, to me. You can even take 1 level in warlock so everything runs off CHA instead of mixing DEX and CHA.

[PeteNutButter]

IMO Blades Bard is basically a straight upgrade to Valor. Everything you think Valor does, it doesn't really do that well, or nearly enough to miss out on the perks of Blade.

Level 3 valor bards get medium armor and shield which is nice, but if you really want to tank you probably want to take first level in fighter anyways, so it's pointless. Swords bards might miss out on that AC for a few levels, but will either be maxing Dex or dipping hexblade which gives them the same proficiencies.

Valor bard's allies can add their inspiration to AC or to damage. The damage is a trap option, adding 4.5 damage in tier 2 is junk compared to turning a near miss into a hit, especially if an ally is a GWM or something whose average damage is around 20. The AC power is hard to gauge, as it is a nice boost. It's kind of like a bad cutting words, which isn't too bad since cutting words is good. Using a resource for defense that could be used for offense is probably slightly weaker in the long though.

The blade bard gets these flourishes that are sick, notably defensive flourish. It takes a resource and uses it as both offense and defense, without having to rely on ruddy teammates. (BTW I picture the slashing flourish on archers like the Legolas move of stabbing a guy next to you with the arrow before you shoot it.)

At level 14 he does it every round, but the valor bard can cast a spell and make an attack as a bonus action. The sad thing is this can be replicated on the swords bard with Haste and either TWF or CBE, attacking and then making a bonus action attack. The valor bard at level 14 has already spent several ASIs on martial feats (CBE, SS, etc) and boosting str/dex or spent levels in hexblade to be SAD, so has a lot of resources spent into making attacks. Attacking will probably be their most efficient action, meaning the spell+ one attack will be at most once per combat, as they cast one concentration spell before going into the fight. If that spell happens to be haste, or a bonus action spell such as swift quiver... it's completely wasted.

[lunaticfringe]

I like Valor Archers a bit more than Blade. Combat Inspiration & being able to cast an Action Spell & Sharp Shooter (Valor can Haste too).

I like Whisper better as a Crossbow Expert/Bard that uses Inspiration for Damage.

Just my opinion.