Is Hinjo supposed to be a lousy paladin?

[Charles Phipps]

It occurs to me that Hinjo is a nice enough guy, as we know. He also tries to do the right thing but it strikes me the guy isn't quite high enough level/"Got the Touch" (sung to the Stan Bush theme) to achieve what he needs to do.

* He consistently gets his ass kicked, usually not in a dramatic manner (See Miko, Ninja, and Redcloak)

* He loses Azure City to the Goblins.

* He is unable to inspire loyalty in the nobility.

* He's unable to inspire loyalty in his soldiers.

* The commoners consider him inferior to Shojo.

* He loses control of the Miko situation almost immediately.

* His plan to defend the Gate failed in a horrific fashion that decimated the Sapphire Guard.

* He seems wishy washy on his decisions (abandoning Haley, defending the city versus fleeing)

Is this actual characterization or is it just piling on troubles to the PC whose player shows up only once every couple of weeks.

(I refuse to consider him an NPC or if he is, he's a DMPC)

[Morty]

He consistently gets his ass kicked, usually not in a dramatic manner (See Miko, Ninja, and Redcloak)

He's just unlucky and fights enemies vastly more powerful than him.


He loses Azure City to the Goblins.

Against army of disciplined soldiers outnumbering his forces three to one.


He is unable to inspire loyalty in the nobility.

Who are greedy, selfish, sneaky bastards.


He's unable to inspire loyalty in his soldiers.

The commoners consider him inferior to Shojo.

Because he was forced to take his place as ruler of the city after certain fanatical paladin killed his uncle. He wasn't prepared for it.


He loses control of the Miko situation almost immediately.

"Loses control"? How was he supposed to keep it?


His plan to defend the Gate failed in a horrific fashion that decimated the Sapphire Guard.

Show me a better plan to defend something against epic-level lich.


He seems wishy washy on his decisions (abandoning Haley, defending the city versus fleeing)

Well, it's not like he's in critical situation that changes every five minutes.

[Hushdawg]

Is this actual characterization or is it just piling on troubles to the PC whose player shows up only once every couple of weeks.

(I refuse to consider him an NPC or if he is, he's a DMPC)

NPC and DMPC is pretty much the same thing.

Neither one will level up with the rest of the party and neither one of them really is directly involved in the decision-making of the party.

The party itself can refuse to go along with either one and stomp off unless there is a railroad plot that demands the PCs follow along (as we saw with Miko).

I think Hinjo may be about to make some serious decisions that will have permenant effects on the storyline though.

[Charles Phipps]

NPC and DMPC is pretty much the same thing.

Neither one will level up with the rest of the party and neither one of them really is directly involved in the decision-making of the party.

???

I thought it was pretty much established.

1. Yes they will.

2. The DMPC, at best, is there to remind PCs of pertinent information. If not out right help lead them on the plot thread parts.

[chibibar]

* He consistently gets his ass kicked, usually not in a dramatic manner (See Miko, Ninja, and Redcloak)

Ok... first of all we have to look at a few thing. Redcloak and Xykon are epic level Vilians... no chance of winning. Ninja = they are ninja :) I'm sure these are for comic relief more than show that Hinjo sucks at combat. and Miko, Miko is tweak for solo combat. Miko has to since she is sent to far away mission a lot and can't depend on others to be around (since they sent her alone)


* He loses Azure City to the Goblins.
ummm... 3 to 1 odds PLUS magic.... conventional combat tactics don't work when magic are involve. Normally 3 to 1 against a defend position is easy to protect but when you have magic involve... it can turn the tide easily.


* He is unable to inspire loyalty in the nobility.
This make Hinjo a good paladin. Paladins are not design to cheat, lie and manipulate (but he is learning to the limit of his alignment and class) Shojo has MANY years and many level in aristocrat)


* He's unable to inspire loyalty in his soldiers.
The soldiers follow him... what are you talking about? You want Hinjo to pull a Custard Last Stand?


* The commoners consider him inferior to Shojo.
Shojo got manipulation down pat. Shojo knows how to work the crowd. Hinjo is more of a straight forward type.


* He loses control of the Miko situation almost immediately.
Hinjo almost did, but MIKO was the one who lost it.


* His plan to defend the Gate failed in a horrific fashion that decimated the Sapphire Guard.

As many have said it before... can you come up with a better plan without knowing what Xykon/Redcloak ability? remember we are readers, we know all aspect outside the comic and rules. Try to be in Hinjo's shoe with limited information and everything falling apart around you.

* He seems wishy washy on his decisions (abandoning Haley, defending the city versus fleeing)
Hinjo has to consider the innocent. Do you want to sacrifice a whole boat of people (innocent/non combat) to rescue a season adventurer? I know that the comic world everything revolves around the characters BUT Hinjo is not a character. He is a NPC (or DMPC people look at it) which has to follow the moral rules and the greater good for HIS people.

Defending a losing city where most of the people have fled is suicidal. Maybe that is what some people have hope to get Hinjo out of the picture, but as a ruler, you have to know when to run and know when to fight. This fight Hinjo realize it was losing. The throne room has been blown to bits by MIKO, The leader (Shojo) was killed by MIKO, and the OoTS was put into considerable strain by MIKO.......

Of course it Shojo's fault for manipulating Miko into the situation but that is a different topic.

All-in-all I think Hinjo did pretty well considering the VERY limited time and resources he had on hand.

[Elandegenerate]

(to lazy to mess with quote...thingy)

* He consistently gets his ass kicked, usually not in a dramatic manner (See Miko, Ninja, and Redcloak)
- I dont remember to much about the ninja thing, but miko was the strongest paladin in the saphire guard, which makes her the most powerful person in saphire city most likely. As for redcloak, not only is he a match for the order of the stick, but a desentigrate spell(thats what 22d6, that could kill haley if the rolls where good enough) against a Paladin who has been in a battle all day, getting ganked by ninjas no less, "a healthy paladin" does not make.

* He loses Azure City to the Goblins.
-the only way Azure city could have been saved is through some MAJOR intervention, 10,000 soldiers dead, and that only a third of their forces.

* He is unable to inspire loyalty in the nobility.
-the nobility had been trying to kill Shojo for years. Azure city being left in the hands of a new ruler was just what they needed to seize control. Im sure they would have liked to have used him as a puppet, but Hinjo is to free willed for that. you dont see evil people turning neutral or better just because their rise to power is so much closer

* He's unable to inspire loyalty in his soldiers.
* The commoners consider him inferior to Shojo.
-even the nobilist causes have reality strewn about them. Even the greatest heros are just an inch away from running and saving themselves. So close to fear themselves, and yet they have everything it takes to be named a hero. Most people dont have that devotion , loyalty and courage. They can not be blamed for fleeing, and no one else is to blame. Thats war, and thats politics. Several good books including Runelords (and the following books), Dragonlance, and Through Wolf's Eyes (as well as the sequels) depict well the intricacies of the ruler-soldeir/commoner relationship. People create jobs, goverment, and society for the sole purpose of having a happy and healthy life. Doesnt really matter who is in charge, when war breaks out the commoners will always be unhappy, the only case when this is not true is MAYBE int he case of figures who are the type to become legends, and one cant expect every hero to become a legend



* He loses control of the Miko situation almost immediately.
* His plan to defend the Gate failed in a horrific fashion that decimated the Sapphire Guard.
-one word....Miko. Miko is a psycho who couldnt be controlled by one of the two most caniving persons in the story (those being Shojo and Roy's father). You saw her justify her escape from prison, you heard(read) her say somethign along the lines of "i forgive you for sending me the mixed messages", thinks she is better than the gods. If im not mistaken, Soon was about to finish off the two people responsible for the destruction of azure city, and then miko runs up and blows up the castle (on a side note. what the hell, imp toughness much O'chul?) Not even the gods could stop that misguided fool, much less someone who just had the fate of the world thrown on his shoulders
* He seems wishy washy on his decisions (abandoning Haley, defending the city versus fleeing)
-Once again, is suggest that reading, you come to really appreciate leaders, and the fact that any leader who doesnt second guess himself is a bad one. The thing that makes good leaders is the one who doesnt waste time when haste is needed, and doesn't jump to solutions when there is time in hand. When you are a leader of an entire nation, you cant afford to make the wrong decisions, thats why a wise leader picks his advisors, as Hinjo did. and they successfully adviced him on wise courses of action, which means that, in a way, since he chose his allies, all credit is due to Hinjo's wise appreciation of wisdom and perspective in others.
- and i think hinjo was pretty set in his decision to wait for haley, i thought it wise that when he awoke (as he was unconcious when the decision to abandon haley was made) that he decided not to go back.

[Spiryt]

I can just agree with others. Hinjo got surpassed by events, but almost everyone would got surpassed.

[chibibar]

also don't confuse leadership with Paladin. They are two separate things :)

I think Hinjo is a good example of a how a Paladin should be played (if he was a PC) of course such a character is not as "fun" as Miko (example of not how paladin should played) in terms of storywise.

[DraPrime]

I too agree with the others. I actually find Hinjo as an example of what Miko could have been if she hadn't hadn't become delusional. Hinjo may not be the strongest paladin, but he does what's right.

[RAGE KING!]

* He consistently gets his ass kicked, usually not in a dramatic manner (See Miko, Ninja, and Redcloak)

First, Miko. Miko is the strongest paladin in the sapphire guard not to mention insane/fanatical. That was set up really nicely with Roy, and was reasonably important to the plot. He actually did well in the ninja scene, but then got attacked by ninjas. Then Durkon came, adding value to Durkon's limited appearances, would you rather he made Durkon look better, or Hinjo? Durkon is more important. The part with Redcloak was more an excuse for Hinjo to be in character, and for the celestial lion to disappear.


* He loses Azure City to the Goblins.

How then hell was he not going to?


* He is unable to inspire loyalty in the nobility.

As Shojo pointed out earlier, and as Elan pointed out later, the nobility are doodoo heads. Also, it's hard to come to terms with someone who is worried the city they live in is about to be destroyed and they don't know why. They're also peeved 'cuz he would


* He's unable to inspire loyalty in his soldiers.

Actually, as 20% of soldiers in conventional medieval actually attack, one could say he did a good job of it.


* The commoners consider him inferior to Shojo.

...see above.


* He loses control of the Miko situation almost immediately.

Nobody could have done better, except say, xykon.


* His plan to defend the Gate failed in a horrific fashion that decimated the Sapphire Guard.

Against Xykon...an epic-ECL lich.


* He seems wishy washy on his decisions (abandoning Haley, defending the city versus fleeing)

not really, he just was unsure of what course to take, other than that he's stuck to his decisions, and adapted them as needed.

[Querzis]

Hes a great paladin, I really think thats how you should play that class, I saw way too many paladins like Miko. Sure he aint powerfull but hes not supposed to be, hes what, level 8? 9? I do think Shojo was a much better leader, but that doesnt make Hinjo a bad leader, it just make Shojo the greatest leader ever.

[Yoritomo Himeko]

It occurs to me that Hinjo is a nice enough guy, as we know. He also tries to do the right thing but it strikes me the guy isn't quite high enough level/"Got the Touch" (sung to the Stan Bush theme) to achieve what he needs to do.

Is this actual characterization or is it just piling on troubles to the PC whose player shows up only once every couple of weeks.


Yeah, you're right. Even though I like both characters, Hinjo just doesn't have it. While everyone else developed new strengths (especially Elan!) during this battle, he was the only one who didn't improve. Even Lien fought better than he did. I honestly can't see him either traveling with the party or even leading Azure City. And I definitely can't see him leading the OOTS.

He can't do anything. He obviously can't fight, makes bad judgments, and I don't think he can cast anything besides Smite Evil, Detect Evil, and Lay on Hands. He's just useless.

I'm willing to bet he is going to be written out real soon.

In short, Elan > Hinjo.

[Theodoriph]

Hinjo's plan to defend the gate was brilliant.

Too bad Miko screwed it up and distracted Soon.

[InfiniteMiller]

Hinjo always struck me as a Paladin who didn't bother to pump Diplomacy. This seems to lead to many of his problems inspiring loyalty in his fellow Azurites.

[Jasdoif]

(I refuse to consider him an NPC or if he is, he's a DMPC)Why is that? Being an NPC a few levels behind the OotS would account for his general inability to contribute.

[Elandegenerate]

i think a good question you hinja doupter should ask, is "what did he do wrong?" every instance, his decisions where difficult ones and ended up likely being the right ones, and everytime the story showed him fighting, he was againts unfair odds. I also seem to remember fighing just as hard against the cannon fodder.


and i think everyone is missing something important


that important thing is in the realm of the person who knows the most about the Oots universe


Elan.

if he where here now, he might say something along the lines of "obviously Hinjo is one of those characters who fails in his responsibility because of his inexperiece (even if it wasnt all his fault), he blames himself and goes off and gets stronger, leading a heroic rush of victory in one final battle while the main characters or off fighting the main villian, and ultimately is the single person who stands in between Us stopping Xykon in a heroic death battle, and us stopping xykon and living through it"

Of course, this comic has proved to both make use of unexpected turns from what would be expected, as well as clever use and parody of what would be expected, so who knows, last time i checked the story was still going on :P

[David Argall]

It occurs to me that Hinjo is a nice enough guy, as we know. He also tries to do the right thing but it strikes me the guy isn't quite high enough level/"Got the Touch" (sung to the Stan Bush theme) to achieve what he needs to do.

* He consistently gets his ass kicked, usually not in a dramatic manner (See Miko, Ninja, and Redcloak)
Good NPCs are supposed to lose. That means they need the party to ride to the rescue. As to Hinjo, he is supposed to be an overly brave guy, which means taking on foes you should avoid.


* He loses Azure City to the Goblins.
Well, that is mostly plot, but he rather obviously did a poor job of defense.


* He is unable to inspire loyalty in the nobility.
* He's unable to inspire loyalty in his soldiers.
* The commoners consider him inferior to Shojo.
No big blame for him in any of this.


* He loses control of the Miko situation almost immediately.
Actually, he did a very good job in what turned out to be a very hard situation.


* His plan to defend the Gate failed in a horrific fashion that decimated the Sapphire Guard.
It was intended to "fail" in this way. The dead paladins were a sacrifice, presumably improving Soon in some way.


* He seems wishy washy on his decisions (abandoning Haley, defending the city versus fleeing)
Quite the reverse. He stuck to decisions far too long. He should have had that ship out of there as soon as Redcloud showed up. And he wanted to keep on fighting when the odds were 7 to 20,000.

[warmachine]

Hinjo inherited a military mess; a nobility who were after his job before he got it and think they can use the war to do it; a high ranking paladin who was completely off her rocker, no matter what he did; an invading army with an epic level sorcerer and a very smart, high level cleric. At this level, spell casters beat up paladins and Redcloak had the spells and the smarts to breach the city walls. Otherwise, Hinjo's leadership from the front might have pulled it off.

In other words, Hinjo inherited a disaster and no time to fix it before the really, really, big disaster turned up. He didn't stand a chance. Not against Redcloak.

I regard Hinjo as an exemplary paladin, even if too reluctant to retreat.

[Setra]

* He seems wishy washy on his decisions (abandoning Haley, defending the city versus fleeing)
My only comment.. at first he was quite adamant about not fleeing, and wanting to wait for Haley.

He was only convinced otherwise when he was reminded that there were more lives to save.

That's not Wishy Washy.

[BRC]

The actual question is this: Is Hinjo supposed to be an Unlucky paladin, on-screen anyway.

[Recursive]

He's also exactly the sort of leader that a good DM might give to Azure City in an actual campaign.

If Shojo were still in charge, he would be thinking circles around the PCs, and their only options would be to carry out Shojo's plans, or to muck around, botch the plans, and make things worse.

Hinjo, on the other hands, is young and inexperienced, his plans have flaws, and he's going to make mistakes. He's also humble enough to listen to advice, and adaptable enough to change his plans when the advice is good. He respects the PCs for their past accomplishments, and they have his immediate attention if they want to propose their own ideas.

Add to this a good-hearted nature that makes the PCs want to help him succeed, and enough competence to make a valuable (if imperfect) ally, and we've got all the elements in place for the PCs to help change history...if they can only come up with a plan of their own that works better than Hinjo's.

Of course, this is the OOTS we're talking about, so Azure City fell anyway. :smallfrown:

[OOTS_Rules.]

I don't think he was a bad paladin. Miko was a bad paladin.

[Impikmin]

* He consistently gets his ass kicked, usually not in a dramatic manner (See Miko, Ninja, and Redcloak)

Miko was THE BEST. He was second best. The Ninja made a completely cheap move, while he was owning that Huecava (is that how you spell it?) I might add. And Redcloak just owns, we all know that. Being defeated by top of the line villians (though Miko wasn't really a villian in my mind) would happen to anyone, that doesn't mean he's lousy at all.

* He loses Azure City to the Goblins.

Hey, it was a 3-1 battle. He couldn't do anything about those odds, or get more people. Even if he kicked major ass, the battle would not have been won.

* He is unable to inspire loyalty in the nobility.

They are loyal to no one! You should remember how Shojo wasn't getting killed, by acting old and stupid. They already know about Shojo, so he can't do much about it.

* He's unable to inspire loyalty in his soldiers.

See above. Also, everyone is paniced, and I doubt Shojo could do either of these things in this situation.

* The commoners consider him inferior to Shojo.

Because they are scape goating! Natural human reaction, even though it isn't his fault an army of goblins is coming to kill them.

* He loses control of the Miko situation almost immediately.

She was acting completely CRAZY. Hinjo couldn't have done better. In fact, I think he did very well, and almost got her to pull through.

* His plan to defend the Gate failed in a horrific fashion that decimated the Sapphire Guard.

That wasn't even his plan!! It was passed down to him! He was told that the Saphhire guard would need to defend the gate. AND, they didn't lose horrificly! They almost killed Xykon and Redcloak!

* He seems wishy washy on his decisions (abandoning Haley, defending the city versus fleeing)


Come on, those were very very hard decisions! He needed to choose between letting tons of innocents possibly die, or risk it and save his good comrade. And if you could leave your ruined city so fast, then you're not a paladin.

I think you don't give Hinjo enough credit. He's awesome.

[shaddy_24]

It occurs to me that Hinjo is a nice enough guy, as we know. He also tries to do the right thing but it strikes me the guy isn't quite high enough level/"Got the Touch" (sung to the Stan Bush theme) to achieve what he needs to do.

* He consistently gets his ass kicked, usually not in a dramatic manner (See Miko, Ninja, and Redcloak)

* He loses Azure City to the Goblins.

* He is unable to inspire loyalty in the nobility.

* He's unable to inspire loyalty in his soldiers.

* The commoners consider him inferior to Shojo.

* He loses control of the Miko situation almost immediately.

* His plan to defend the Gate failed in a horrific fashion that decimated the Sapphire Guard.

* He seems wishy washy on his decisions (abandoning Haley, defending the city versus fleeing)

Is this actual characterization or is it just piling on troubles to the PC whose player shows up only once every couple of weeks.

(I refuse to consider him an NPC or if he is, he's a DMPC)

1st: Miko was more powerful than him, in the heuacuva-ninja fight he probably could have taken out either group on their own, but both together overwhelmed him and Redcloak, well, not even a single PC could have done better. Could Durkon have betten Redcloak in a one-on-one fight? Probably not.
2nd: He would have lost in any situation, but his inexperience probably added to it.
3rd: Shojo couldn't either. The nobles were corrupt, power-seeking fools. They never would have sided with a paladin.
4th and 5th: He still did the best he could. He just got put on the throan yesterday (I think), so the people havn't yet gotten to know and trust him.
6th: That is hardly surprising, considering Miko was crazy anyway. He almost calmed her down, which was more than Shojo or Roy managed to do.
7th: I suppose you have a plan to take down an epic level lich with a bunch of level 5-10 paladins? What could he have done? No one in the city could have stopped Xykon except Soon.
8th: He stayed for too long waiting for Haley. If he had stayed much longer, the defenders of the boat would have been killed and all the civilians would have died. And if the boat was burned, Haley and Belkar wouldn't have been able to escape anyway.
So all your arguments are pretty weak.

[Oxymoron]

It was his first day, give him a break. :smalltongue:


* He consistently gets his ass kicked, usually not in a dramatic manner (See Miko, Ninja, and Redcloak)

Miko was more powerful than Hinjo, hell she beat the crap out of Redcloak for heavens sake. A ninja didn`t kick his ass. Two ninjas did with A LOT of help from the huecuva, a really powerful spellcaster. 3 against one isn`t fair. Disintigrate is a very powerful dmg spell, more so if Redcloak did a crit with it. It seems Hinjo was unlucky with his save.

I see that Hinjos leadership abilities is constantly compared to Shojos leadership abilities. Lets take a look how well Shojo would do in Hinjos shoes.


* He loses Azure City to the Goblins.

The odds was not in his favor. Hinjo did everything he could to defend the city. Shojo would do even less, being uable to fight with his troops. However, it is possible Shojo could have made some better plans or made some cunning descisions during the battle since he was a more experienced leader, but again, the odds would still not be in his favor. Considering the circumstances, I believe Shojo would also lose.


* He is unable to inspire loyalty in the nobility.

So did Shojo. The only way Shojo could control the rotten nobility was by faking senility, tricking them into thinking they controlled him. They were certainly not loyal to him. And with all the nobility present in his throne room, how could he trick them into thinking that one of them made the descision to stand and fight against the hobgoblins?


* He's unable to inspire loyalty in his soldiers

There were many speculations among the soldiers. Some thought Shojo would do a better job, some even thought Shojo was killed because he had secretly allied himself with the hobgoblins. During the battle every soldier did his/her duty to defend the city and follow Hinjos commands. It wasn`t before all was lost that some of the brighter soldiers starting second guessing their survival chances regardless of who was in charge.


* The commoners consider him inferior to Shojo.

Again, specualtions among the masses. Just because one commoner voices his/her opinion, it dosen`t mean that he/she speaks for everyone. When something goes wrong, you tend to blame the current leader.


* He loses control of the Miko situation almost immediately

And Shojo didn`t?


* His plan to defend the Gate failed in a horrific fashion that decimated the Sapphire Guard.

If anyone made a terrible mistake, it was Soon. He had made the plans of how to best defend the Gate ages ago, and any paladin was honorbound to follow it. It wasn`t too bad a plan, but it wasn`t good enough to stop someone as powerful as Xykon (though it almost did). I doubt even Shojo could convince the paladins not to follow their orders to defend the gate.


* He seems wishy washy on his decisions (abandoning Haley, defending the city versus fleeing)

Hinjo is conflicted between how best to defend his city. He was raised to never back off a fight against evil, but he has enough common sense to listen to the wisdom of others. I believe Shojo would make those hard descisions to flee the city and abandoning Haley a lot faster and with more determination than Hinjo. He was more of a realist than an idealist.

Hinjo isn`t a lousy paladin, but as a NPC he is not supposed to outshine the PCs.

[TheNifty]

I wouldn't say "lousy" so much as "hopelessly outmatched". The poor guy can't seem to catch a break; he's several levels below any OOTS member, and stuck trying to protect his city against an epic-level threat.

No matter what he did, it was always going to end up this way. Stupid railroad plots...

[Elandegenerate]

i have a few more things to say
1)

No matter what he did, it was always going to end up this way. Stupid railroad plots...

feh, well as Hinjo(or was it some redshirt?) said himself, that in such a large battle, the survivability of a high lvl character is more chaotic. who knows. In heros of horror it suggests the use of an unstopable villain with an achillies heel. the OoTS and Co. have used Xykons twice (his lack of forthought and such)

2)that said , either way, i think azure city would still have been in deep if it was just Redcloak by himself. I mean, have you been paying attention to him, he was all up on EVERYTHING throught the battle. well, exept that boulder but that just made him more pimp. Using elementals instead of boulders, turning the good undead, pimp slapping hinjo, and lets not forget the whole "winning the loyalty of an entire Hobgoblin nation" thing

3) anyone else getting tired of coming back to this topic and going down the page for a minute cus everyone is quoteing the first post?

[Yoritomo Himeko]

i have a few more things to say
3) anyone else getting tired of coming back to this topic and going down the page for a minute cus everyone is quoteing the first post?

Yeah, I realized I did that myself. Sorry, I'll fix my replies.

[factotum]

Hinjo isn't a bad paladin. He's an excellent paladin. He isn't a particularly good LEADER, though--he's too used to doing the honourable thing without thinking about the effects it will have on the people he's supposed to be leading. Case in point: when he tells Haley that they could kill hundreds more hobgoblins. The paladinish thing to do is to die fighting against evil, no matter how insuperable the odds. The leader of Azure City, on the other hand, should immediately have been thinking about how to get out to the evacuated populace, knowing they'd need some strong leadership now their city was gone.

I don't know if this essential contradiction is going to be played up in the coming weeks, or if Hinjo is just going to disappear from sight as the action moves to Girard's Gate...

[Albion]

Hinjo is a very good paladin and doing very well for his condition(...). His level is not up to standards with the mightily fearsome Xykon and his horrible henchmen. That's how I see it, carry on :smallsmile:

[Wolfman42666]

To Charles Phipps: do you start thread's with the intention to just annoy every one, because most of your threads I've seen have had negative response pretty much all the way through. Or are you just trying to get yourself (and everyone else) to the next "size category in the playground" if so bravo, if not I never do anything to be popular so I can't say much.

You put together concise arguments that are almost airtight if Hinjo knew what we know.

Also newsflash: Hinjo controlled the Miko situation far longer and more effectively than anyone even Shojo had done previously, Roy tried it she vowed to destroy him Shojo tried it, she did kill him, see where I'm going with this.

Hinjo did his job well his ploy with the sapphire guard was shrewd but it worked, or would have if Belkar had coup de grace (presuming she stayed dead) Miko when he had the chance.

[eilandesq]

At the risk of metagame thinking, I suspect that Hinjo's player has run into a combination of bad die rolls and/or impossible DCs lately. He's clearly heavy on the CHA skills, but Miko was probably giving him "Fanatic" DCs to work with and the fact that he couldn't tell the nobles that the fate of the world was literally at stake probably penalized his Diplomacy rolls with them to the point where he never had a chance (and their ambition probably would have given him problems even if he could have told them the whole truth ["Fine, we have to help him save the world--but nothing says he can't die a hero's death in the process."]). As for Redcloak zapping him, Hinjo probably has a very good Fortitude save bonus assuming he's got a solid CON and that his CHA is high end and that he's got reasonable items for his level (all reasonable assumptions for the #2 paladin in the Sapphire Guard)--it's pretty clear that just as O'Chul did, Hinjo botched his save at a very bad time.

[Gez]

I find it amusing that it's about this strip -- which is a comic, not a recounting of a D&D game -- that we have people arguing over the distinction betwen PC, NPC and DMPC.

The thing is, none of the characters are any of those. They're protagonists, antagonists, and secondary characters. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Demented]

To Charles Phipps: do you start thread's with the intention to just annoy every one, because most of your threads I've seen have had negative response pretty much all the way through. Or are you just trying to get yourself (and everyone else) to the next "size category in the playground" if so bravo, if not I never do anything to be popular so I can't say much.

He doesn't post often enough for that.
He just makes a lot of flamebait... And it's really only flamebait because it's highly contrary to the comic (which, being a parody, tends to point out unpleasant realities, necessarily to mock them), and tends to touch on sensitive issues. (Such as Miko, Paladins, Roy's death... and more Paladins.) He's just a little-endian in a big-endian forum.

He does make threads that aren't contrary, too.
They just don't get much ado.

[Iranon]

I suppose I see the same thing as the original poster... however, I react quite differently to them.

He is consistently shown as an admirable person. He kept his calm at the revelation of his uncle's trickery, he is portrayed as honourable and fair-minded even by paladin standards. He doesn't close his eyes to uncomfortable realities (such as the nature of the noble class in Azure City), and doesn't attempt to resolve them with righteous fury by default. He's willing to take action both in combat and out of it, and according to Miko he is quite competent by any normal standard.

Just about all other major characters are more obviously larger than life though, having had scenes that could have come straight out of a cheesy action flick. Hinjo's moment of gratuitious coolness - revealing Argent - is actually quite funny once you consider that riding dogs are usually associated with halflings.

That Hinjo does not equal the others in sheer badassery or power despite being the most praiseworthy person sends a far nicer message than 'the good guys always win' (So... if they wouldn't, would they cease to be the good guys? Revisionist History for the win!)

Our PCs rarely had appropriately scaled encouters... most were a breeze, and those that weren't involved a copious amount of DM railroading (what would you usually expect to happen to level 10-ish adventurers in a direct confrontation against a lvl 15+ cleric, an epic-level lich and a few dozen minions? To say nothing about falling dragon heads and the like).

Hinjo on the other hand didn't show much evidence for thick plot armour. The man is on his own and regularly gets clobbered because the current mess he's been thrust into is a few sizes too big for him (and just about anyone else). He meets the challenge like a hero should. Perhaps he should scale down his pre-fight taunts a little though - too easy to have fun at his expense.

Concerning his lack of decisiveness... there's a huge difference between being responsible for countless civilians and a party of high-level characters; the PCs and Miko have it easy by comparison.

[Krytha]

This isn't about Hinjo being a bad paladin, because he is a good paladin. He isn't equipped to deal with the things being thrown at him though, and frankly, nobody in the OotS is either - and Hinjo is in a far tougher spot because he has so much more responsibility pushed on him quickly. Basically, OP's question is completely unfair. It's like asking the OP - are you a lousy human if...

-While you were sleeping you were moved onto a bed of rusty nails and opening your eyelids caused an anvil to fall on top of you and did I forget to mention that the house was on fire and the room was covered in oil P.S. there's a nuclear bomb in the basement with 3 minutes left on its timer, the Huns are invading your neighborhood with laser-eye robot dogs and tanks and your friends are all aliens from outer space who are trying to kill you?

No?

[chibibar]

I find it amusing that it's about this strip -- which is a comic, not a recounting of a D&D game -- that we have people arguing over the distinction betwen PC, NPC and DMPC.

The thing is, none of the characters are any of those. They're protagonists, antagonists, and secondary characters. Nothing more, nothing less.

But Rich's play on word (or least early comics) SHOWS that the Protagonist are PC (hence the 4th wall breaking every once in a while)

[Kreistor]

Bad paladin? What comic are you reading, Charles? Certainly not OotS.

As a paladin, Hinjo shines. He has a sense of mercy and justice (referring to dealings with Belkar). He does not let his emotional attachments get in the way of his dealings with murderers (Miko specifically). He demonstrates a sense of kindness (again, Miko, trying to talk her down) and responsibility (taking that entire situation under his own control). He can make the hard calls (placing his Sapphire Guard by the throne where they will likely die, but will be able to fight on after death).

His only fault is trying to do everything himself. During the battle he is running around the battlements trying to support everyone, and in the escape from AC, he tries to hold the ship back for Haley and co. to return, but in the end that was just too much to expect from himself and others.

As a paladin, Hinjo shines. As a defender of the city, Hinjo did as well as could be expected with a horrible situation. And as a friend, Hinjo has demonstrated all the best qualities of the Lawful Good alignment, even at the potential cost of his own death.

[chibibar]

Bad paladin? What comic are you reading, Charles? Certainly not OotS.

As a paladin, Hinjo shines. He has a sense of mercy and justice (referring to dealings with Belkar). He does not let his emotional attachments get in the way of his dealings with murderers (Miko specifically). He demonstrates a sense of kindness (again, Miko, trying to talk her down) and responsibility (taking that entire situation under his own control). He can make the hard calls (placing his Sapphire Guard by the throne where they will likely die, but will be able to fight on after death).

His only fault is trying to do everything himself. During the battle he is running around the battlements trying to support everyone, and in the escape from AC, he tries to hold the ship back for Haley and co. to return, but in the end that was just too much to expect from himself and others.

As a paladin, Hinjo shines. As a defender of the city, Hinjo did as well as could be expected with a horrible situation. And as a friend, Hinjo has demonstrated all the best qualities of the Lawful Good alignment, even at the potential cost of his own death.

Quote for trueth!

[berrew]

The OP confuses me. He asks a question, then doesn't address it at all in his post. I see a lot of points discussing Hinjo's potential failure as a leader, and some that seem to imply the OP doesn't understand about how levels and power work, but none about his deficiencies as a Paladin.

[Tirian]

The OP confuses me. He asks a question, then doesn't address it at all in his post. I see a lot of points discussing Hinjo's potential failure as a leader, and some that seem to imply the OP doesn't understand about how levels and power work, but none about his deficiencies as a Paladin.

I think that you mostly need to be grateful that you are reading a different webcomic than the one that Charles Phipps does, because that one doesn't sound like it's very good at all.

[Calamity]

I too agree with the others. I actually find Hinjo as an example of what Miko could have been if she hadn't hadn't become delusional. Hinjo may not be the strongest paladin, but he does what's right.

Actually since Miko fell Hinjo actually IS the strongest paladin. At least of the Sapphire Guard. Although admittedly after the battle it's unlikely there's more than 3 paladins of the Sapphire Guard left.

[Porthos]

Actually since Miko fell Hinjo actually IS the strongest paladin. At least of the Sapphire Guard. Although admittedly after the battle it's unlikely there's more than 3 paladins of the Sapphire Guard left.

Actually, according to this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html) "many paladins are away" from Azure City at the time of the battle.

So this meme of there being (almost) no members of the Sapphire Guard is almost certainly incorrect.

[PaladinFreak]

To the OP: In answer to your question, I would say that, judging by the overwhelming sentiment here, the answer to your original question is No, Hinjo is not supposed to be a bad paladin, and, by most people's standards, is a very good one.

[Oeep Snaec]

My opinion is that paladins should never leaders of civilians. Many will argue that point, but their desire to defeat evil may overwhelm them, and they may lose site of what is most important: the safety of their people. Hinjo almost lost site of that during the battle, but he was stopped, and was able to make better decisions.

Also, what is a DMPC? Call me dumb, but I have never heard the term used before.

[Yoritomo Himeko]

He doesn't post often enough for that.
He just makes a lot of flamebait... And it's really only flamebait because it's highly contrary to the comic (which, being a parody, tends to point out unpleasant realities, necessarily to mock them), and tends to touch on sensitive issues. (Such as Miko, Paladins, Roy's death... and more Paladins.) He's just a little-endian in a big-endian forum.

He does make threads that aren't contrary, too.
They just don't get much ado.

I don't find him inflammatory at all. He's just trying to debate certain topics. Anyway, I've been enjoying the last couple of threads with people discussing who their favorite characters are and why.

Anyway, getting back to the topic. I'm now seeing that Rich is trying to make Hinjo as likable and sympathetic as possible. Why? I don't see him joining the OOTS, and they are not staying to help take back Azure City. Unless Rich is planning a separate storyline for Hinjo, I don't know what Rich is going to do with him.


Actually, according to this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html) "many paladins are away" from Azure City at the time of the battle.

So this meme of there being (almost) no members of the Sapphire Guard is almost certainly incorrect.

As a matter of fact, O-Chul is saying that right to Hinjo, so he should already know that. But he tells Lien that they are all that's left of the Sapphire Guard. Was this a mistake or did he just forget?

[Porthos]

As a matter of fact, O-Chul is saying that right to Hinjo, so he should already know that. But he tells Lien that they are all that's left of the Sapphire Guard. Was this a mistake or did he just forget?

Neither. It was Conversational Shorthand. :smallsmile: Hinjo knows full well that there are many paladins outside of Azure City. But since they are outside of Azure City they aren't exactly much help to him at the moment.

Besides, the exact quote that Hinjo gives to Lien is, "... I guess that doubles the current resources of the Sapphire Guard." And that statement is 100% accurate.

I mean, really, would people have preferred Hinjo to say, "I guess that doubles the current resources of the Sapphire Guard." <Pause> "Not counting, of course, the many Paladins that are stationed away from Azure City. After all, since they aren't around, then they really aren't part of our current resour...."

<Long Awkward Silence as Dramatic Moment has been ruined>

Only people like Eugene Greenhilt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html) would make a statement like that in a situation like that. :smalltongue:

Course, I'm starting to wish that Hinjo had referred to the other Guard members, however obliquely, just so people would realize that there are plenty of Sapphire Guardsmen still out there. :smallwink:

[Ravenlord]

Aren't paladins, I dunno, supposed to win or die fighting evil as long as innocents are at risk? Common sense sure dictates that one has to bail from such a doomed situation, but common people are neither paragons of virtue.

[Ecalsneerg]

Also, what is a DMPC? Call me dumb, but I have never heard the term used before.

A mix of PC and NPC. DMs commonly use them either to highly unfairly act as a PC as well as the DM. Another common use is the plot dump.

[Porthos]

Aren't paladins, I dunno, supposed to win or die fighting evil as long as innocents are at risk?

No, and this is a very common misconception. :smallsmile:

Imp appears before 1st Level Paladin who is traveling alone: Behold, No Name Paladin! I am Evil Incarnate. Although I am much more powerful than you, and you have every chance to escape, I challenge you to a duel.

No Name Paladin: Aghhh!!1 Evil Incarnate!! SLASH-SLASH-SL-errk...

Imp gets out notepad, crosses off a name on the list, and teleports out.

Imp appears before another 1st Level Paladin..... :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, this whole notion that Paladins are always suicidal tactical idiots baffles me. Sure, some Paladins are martyrs, with tragic deaths that allow others to live. But not all Paladins are. And it does a tremendous disservice to Paladins to try to pigeonhole all of them into such a role.

Besides, you mentioned the protecting of the innocents. Well, what about all of the innocents that are currently waiting on ships in the sea? They need protecting too (from both the Hobgoblins and the Azure City Nobles), you know. So it is perfectly in character for a Paladin to realize that his is just throwing away his life, for no gain, to retreat and protect other innocent lives elsewhere.

[VanBuren]

Well you know, being a Paladin is like being from Mechanus: No variation at all. :P

[chibibar]

Aren't paladins, I dunno, supposed to win or die fighting evil as long as innocents are at risk? Common sense sure dictates that one has to bail from such a doomed situation, but common people are neither paragons of virtue.


you confuse Paladin with 1st edition Cavaliers!! :)

[Morty]

Aren't paladins, I dunno, supposed to win or die fighting evil as long as innocents are at risk? Common sense sure dictates that one has to bail from such a doomed situation, but common people are neither paragons of virtue.

I've never seen "suicidal robot" in Code of Conduct. Mabe I've missed something.

[Green Bean]

I've never seen "suicidal robot" in Code of Conduct. Mabe I've missed something.

It's before the section about obeying all laws all of the time, and after the part about smiting anything that detects as evil. :smallamused:

[Morty]

It's before the section about obeying all laws all of the time, and after the part about smiting anything that detects as evil. :smallamused:

Ah, there. Indeed, I missed that.

[Hagentai]

NPC and DMPC is pretty much the same thing.

Neither one will level up with the rest of the party and neither one of them really is directly involved in the decision-making of the party.

The party itself can refuse to go along with either one and stomp off unless there is a railroad plot that demands the PCs follow along (as we saw with Miko).

I think Hinjo may be about to make some serious decisions that will have permenant effects on the storyline though.


What bs game do you play? As a dm not only do my NPCS level with the party members level (there helping out with the party, so why wouldn't they?).. they exp sponge. And yes now that you mention it Hinjo is kinda worthless.

He looks like that worthless exp spunge stumble bum dms have been known to tag with parties. Honestly.. name one useful thing he's really done?


To the OP: In answer to your question, I would say that, judging by the overwhelming sentiment here, the answer to your original question is No, Hinjo is not supposed to be a bad paladin, and, by most people's standards, is a very good one.

No he’s not bad.. As in evil... he’s just ineffective. I’d say poorly made. A exp sponge.. Someone who has a ton of levels bring up the groups ECL... and does little to justify being there.


Actually since Miko fell Hinjo actually IS the strongest paladin.
And that's Miko. Isn't she insane? I'd just as soon... rather sooner take Xykon's character analysis before hers.



He is consistently shown as an admirable person. He kept his calm at the revelation of his uncle's trickery, he is portrayed as honourable and fair-minded even by paladin standards. He doesn't close his eyes to uncomfortable realities (such as the nature of the noble class in Azure City), and doesn't attempt to resolve them with righteous fury by default.

So what your saying is..he's a dumbed down less affective version of his uncle with NPC levels? Cause that's what I've seen out of him. And for that matter his best tacts have been social skills which, Oh by the way he failed.

I'm fine with his character... Hell I even like him... but the way the writer has portrayed him.. yes.. THE OP has shown pretty well... he's worthless. Now the writer could make a argument that NPCS aren't suppose to do the job of the PCS.. and that's all well and fine... He's not a bad character... He's great for the comic.. But from a party stand point so far he's the perpetual epic lead weight. As a pc I'd protect him... (If I got payed.. he is a noble).

[Hagentai]

A mix of PC and NPC. DMs commonly use them either to highly unfairly act as a PC as well as the DM. Another common use is the plot dump.

What makes them highly unfair? It's an rpg... I consider the dm much like a computer (cept with an ego). When you play a video game RPG you end up with npcs all the time.. the dm (aka the computer) can have them act differently when it sees fit and betray you.

We've all (if I may assume) played such games and found them to be fun. Now in a fair d and d game a pc simply can choose not to allow the NPC into the party. These guys could have clearly left Lord Hinjo to die if he went robo Pal. And should have. But no they hung around, talked him out of dying (which might i add is worth a little Role play exp.).

There was no rail roading. They choose to save him.

[Porthos]

He looks like that worthless exp spunge stumble bum dms have been known to tag with parties. Honestly.. name one useful thing he's really done?

Short Answer: Not Be Miko. :smalltongue:
Long Answer: Resolved the Belkar situation satisfactorily
Got a huge number of civilians out of Azure City with almost no notice (and with little civil disturbance)
Led an inspired defense of Azure City, with almost no warning whatsoever.
Asked for and listened too advice from his top Generals
Listened to the people he was leading, and took their suggestions to heart. (ie listend to their impassioned pleas to leave Azure City and retake it another day)
Recognized that the Order of the Stick would be tremendously useful to the battle of Azure City, and got them to help him
Recognized that his life would be in danger almost immediately and hired Roy to be his bodyguard.
Ordered his Uncles Junk to stay behind to take more refugees, thereby saving countless lives.
Nearly solo-killing a Heucuva (which is not a push over encounter), before some Ninjas broke in and stopped him.

Yes, a lot of these are Out of Combat situations. So what? Being a Combat God isn't the end all and be all of DnD. Hinjo acquitted himself quite nicely on the battlefield. He was able to kill many Hobgoblins, with no trouble at all. He was, as I mentioned, taking care of the Heucuva before the Ninjas stepped in. Okay, so he was getting hosed by the Fiendish Octopus and Redcloak himself. So what? Plenty of the Order have had to have their bacon saved by their partymates from time to time.

Even a powerhouse like V needs help from time to time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0441.html). :smalltongue:

Put simply, Hinjo hasn't had the opportunity to show off his combat prowess. The OotS have had well over 450 strips to strut their stuff. Hinjo? Less than 20, if we're being fair. And since this was nowhere near a Level Appropriate Encounter, I'm willing to cut Hinjo a lot of slack for not tearing the Minions of Xykon a New One. :smallwink:

[mockingbyrd7]

Short Answer: Not Be Miko. :smalltongue:
Long Answer: Resolved the Belkar situation satisfactorily
Got a huge number of civilians out of Azure City with almost no notice (and with little civil disturbance)
Led an inspired defense of Azure City, with almost no warning whatsoever.
Asked for and listened to advice to his top Generals
Listened to the people he was leading, and took their suggestions to heart. (ie listend to their impassioned pleas to leave Azure City and retake it another day)
Recognized that the Order of the Stick would be tremendously useful to the battle of Azure City, and got them to help him
Recognized that his life would be in danger almost immediately and hired Roy to be his bodyguard.
Ordered his Uncles Junk to stay behind to take more refugees, thereby saving countless lives.
Nearly solo-killing a Heucuva (which is [b]not[b] a push over encounter), before some Ninjas broke in and stopped him.

Yes, a lot of these are Out of Combat situations. So what? Being a Combat God isn't the end all and be all of DnD. Hinjo acquitted himself quite nicely on the battlefield. He was able to kill many Hobgoblins, with no trouble at all. He was, as I mentioned, taking care of the Heucuva before the Ninjas stepped in. Okay, so he was getting hosed by the Fiendish Octopus and Redcloak himself. So what? Plenty of the Order have had to have their bacon saved by their partymates from time to time.

Even a powerhouse like V needs help from time to time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0441.html). :smalltongue:

Put simply, Hinjo hasn't had the opportunity to show off his combat prowess. The OotS have had well over 450 strips to strut their stuff. Hinjo? Less than 20, if we're being fair. And since this was nowhere near a Level Appropriate Encounter, I'm willing to cut Hinjo a lot of slack for not tearing the Minions of Xykon a New One. :smallwink:

Yup, you pretty much summed it up.

[boomwolf]

na...
i dont think hinjo had much of a chance there anyway...
even if he as MUCH better he would have still lost ALL of these...
actually i am quite surprised he managed so well...

[Porthos]

You know, it's threads like this (and all of the other ones that are commenting on Hinjo lately) that remind me of a famous phrase:

Victory has many fathers; defeat is an orphan. (and the countless variations of the phrase)

As long as someone is a winner, people will flock to be around them. But should someone lose, even in an impossible situation, then they often will find people either deserting them in droves, or find people criticizing every little thing that went on to the defeat.

Could Hinjo have done things differently? Sure. But lets not forget a very important fact: Azure City (and by extension Hinjo) was exactly six seconds away from victory in this battle. If Miko hadn't destroyed the Sapphire Gate when she did, the Xykon/Redcloak threat would have been eliminated. Even if Miko had attacked it just one round later, Xykon would have been destroyed, along with Redcloak. And I tend to think that Soon would have booked it double-time to tell Hinjo (or someone else) about the location of the phylactery before he faded away back to the Celestial Realms (presuming that the phylactery wasn't destroyed in the blast).

And let's be realistic for a moment. Azure City had less than a day to prepare for the immediate specifics of this threat. Not to mention that: The most powerful member of the SG went nuts a day before the battle and had to be jailed.
The Beloved Lord of Azure City was assassinated just before the battle.
The Nobles, sensing weakness (and a political opportunity), abandoned the city when each and every soldier counted.
Because there was little-to-no warning, the Sapphire Guard was unable to call for badly needed reinforcements.
The Court Wizard was dead before the battle ever began.
The Azure City Walls were breached almost immediately, and in a completely unforeseeable manner.
The invading army was lead by a creature that far outclassed anything that AC could throw at him, and that army had many, many High Level Lieutenants to occupy the High Level Defenders of Azure City.

Quite frankly, the fact that Azure City was six seconds away from (an admittedly pyrrhic) victory is a miracle. Azure City should have been blasted off the face of the earth, when you take all of the circumstances into account. In fact, most board members, before the battle began, were predicting that Azure City would lose, and in a Big Big Way.

So I don't quite see why it is Hinjo's fault for losing a battle that he had no business winning. :smallsmile:

[chibibar]

I would have to agree since Soon figured out Xykon's weakness. Xykon suddenly beat a hasty retreat. I'm sure Soon could have Xykon totally destroy. Redcloak was in no shape at the current time either (Go Soon!) but of course that would end the story and thus end OoTS so.... storywise it would have sucked to end that quick.

Miko destroyed all that..... and thus extended the story (I guess Miko did something right in a way to extend OoTS for many more adventures)

[Yoritomo Himeko]

I would have to agree since Soon figured out Xykon's weakness. Xykon suddenly beat a hasty retreat. I'm sure Soon could have Xykon totally destroy. Redcloak was in no shape at the current time either (Go Soon!) but of course that would end the story and thus end OoTS so.... storywise it would have sucked to end that quick.

Miko destroyed all that..... and thus extended the story (I guess Miko did something right in a way to extend OoTS for many more adventures)

Not necessarily, Soon would have ended only the Team Evil threat. Don't forget Nale is also going after the gates himself.

While I don't think it'd be as exciting with just the Linear Guild, the comic would still have gone on.

[Hagentai]

Short Answer: Not Be Miko.

As a gamer sir.. you should full well know.. sucking less than someone else doesn't make you good.


Resolved the Belkar situation satisfactorily

Um.. noo (not flamming at all by the way, just being honest) that situation is still on going.. which is in fact adding to further problems with not being able to leave Roy behind.

Which may result in Haleys death. Which I guess .. her being a rogue.. is a check in the win column for a Pal.


Led an inspired defense of Azure City, with almost no warning whatsoever.

You see my friend.. I've never been a big fan of.. "He lost.. but he lost with style" arguement. There's a pro fighter by the name of Carlos Newton.. for all his skill puts on several great.. and darn pretty submission holds but he always chokes (heh pun) at winning the big fight. Second place in a fight.. just makes you the best loser.


Asked for and listened too advice from his top Generals
Listened to the people he was leading, and took their suggestions to heart. (ie listend to their impassioned pleas to leave Azure City and retake it another day)

You got me there... but in all honesty.. he had to or he'd be dead. It's why i said he's likeable. That's his Cha.



Recognized that the Order of the Stick would be tremendously useful to the battle of Azure City, and got them to help him.

Bullied Roy with his good alignment and morals. A good 3 year old little girl with a sob story could most likely get Roy to help her out.


Recognized that his life would be in danger almost immediately and hired Roy to be his bodyguard.

His uncle before him with NPC levels pretty much did the same.


Ordered his Uncles Junk to stay behind to take more refugees, thereby saving countless lives.
Um what Pal. wouldn't have? Are you telling me Miko wouldn't have?


Nearly solo-killing a Heucuva (which is not a push over encounter), before some Ninjas broke in and stopped him.

Nearly getting killed by slub ninjas and getting owned by a cr 7? You see what I said... about not being able to win the big one?
He's the Carlos Newton of Order of the stick. Dude.. He's a God damn Pal. He's minimaxed to kill evil things... and he lost. I could understand if he was fighting something good.. or N.N...

By the way great post... He's a fun character and all... and who knows he might grow to be better.. but as he stands.. Hell he's slightly more useful than Ellan or Belker.

[Pyrodragon]

Not necessarily, Soon would have ended only the Team Evil threat. Don't forget Nale is also going after the gates himself.

While I don't think it'd be as exciting with just the Linear Guild, the comic would still have gone on.

SoD Spoiler
Redcloak say that the Knowledge of Warping the Gates is inherent to the Crimson Mantle. So, Even if Nale & Co. Do get "Control" of a gate...Big Whoop. They Have a Gate with no function to them at all

[Porthos]

Second place in a fight.. just makes you the best loser.

And I can never, ever subscribe to that attitude. Seriously, I really am totally against that philosophy. Doing your best, for yourself and all around you, is all you can ever ask from someone. And if that best isn't good enough? Well... There's always tomorrow. :smallsmile:

If you do your best, and if you totally commit to your cause, and you still come up short? You are still a winner in my book. Always.

Besides, Hinjo has panache and style, so I'll forgive him if he can't win an impossible battle. :smallwink:

[Hagentai]

To qoute Shawn Connery... "Losers whine about there best... Winners go home and F*** the prom queen."

It's D and D baby.. not soccer. Your best doesn't kill the power hungry lich! Your best wouldn't get you past the death knight.

Doing your best is fine for Elan... Hell it's a damn miracle when you get "doing your best" out of a Elan. But Hinjo has far to many people who count on him.. for "his best." to be enough.

How many great Villians become greater simply because.. so so fighters where there to give their best. I can only wonder that's how Vecnas become gods.

[Porthos]

To qoute Shawn Connery... "Losers whine about there best... Winners go home and F*** the prom queen."

And who gets the higher paycheck later on in life? :smalltongue:

Seriously though, and all joking aside, I really think there is more to do with life than winning and losing. Being a Decent Human Being for one. :smallwink:

And who says Hinjo isn't a winner? No one, and I mean no one, wins all of the time. What's the phrase about failing seven times out of ten in regards to baseball again? :smalltongue:

I said it before and I'll say it again: We have no idea how good of a combat performer Hinjo is. None whatsoever. The sample size, and the opponents faced simply don't give enough data to make a real conclusion. And that's how it should be, considering he is a medium-level importance NPC.

And I also find it very odd that you are harping on "Winners" considering that the OotS aren't exactly bastions for ownage. For the vast majority of the comic, in fact, their Number One Plan was: Run Away. How can you possibly be a fan of the OotS, I wonder. :smalltongue: Heck, they even got their little hineys kicked royally in this last battle.

None of the characters in OotS (except for perhaps V and Haley) can be remotely called examples of good builds (i.e. winners). Roy didn't concentrate his stats fighting wise the way that he should have. Durkon has a low charisma, which isn't really good when it comes to clerics. And Elan? Well as much as I love him, Elan is the Poster Child for "Trying His Best". Even with his fancypants new PrC. :smallamused:

In fact, that's a lot of the charm of the OotS. They don't steamroll through their opponents. They have setbacks just as often as they have victories. And just as no team in history has ever gone undefeated throughout their existence, so too are the OotS losers. But they are continuously getting more competent as time goes on.

Unfortunately so are the people they are fighting.

To tie this back to Hinjo, I think it is terribly unfair to judge his worth when he faces an nearly impossible fight. Now if this was The Guard of the Sapphire webcomic, and we'd seen 400+ strips of Hinjo being incompetent, then you might have a point. But Hinjo has only been the centre of, what, 20 to 30 strips? Hardly enough to really draw a conclusion. Especially as we've only seen Hinjo fail when he is going up against challenges far greater (i.e. levels) than he is. And you know what? The OotS have failed in those situations as well. It's just that they have had more opportunities to shine.

So if Hinjo is a loser for failing at some tasks, then so is each and every one of the Order.

Which I guess means that none of them get to have their way with the Prom Queen. :smallamused:
----------------------------------

You added this in as I was typing, so let me respond to it: :smallsmile:


It's D and D baby.. not soccer. Your best doesn't kill the power hungry lich! Your best wouldn't get you past the death knight.

And as everybody knows, you can't win DnD. Well, maybe Pun-Pun can. But no one else can. And quite frankly, almost no one is the equal of the power hungry lich....

.... Especially when that lich has a immense army and high level opponents at its bidding. Heck, not even Dorukan could beat Xykon. And I really doubt you would want to call him a loser. At least not to his face. :smallwink:

So if Dorukan can't stand up to Xykon, I really don't blame Hinjo for failing.

And I will leave you with this, It not whether you win or lose that is important, but how you play the game. And that is doubly true in DnD. And to bring this back to your original point, there are many, many examples of Losers With Style that have Gotten The Cheerleader after the game. Heck, I bet Hinjo winds up with Lien before all is said an done.

And, my friend, that is not doing badly at all. Not at all. :smalltongue:

[Krytha]

Well Sean Connery is wrong here, because Hinjo lost but he could have all the prom queens in Azure City (or what's left of it) on his Junk.

[Oeep Snaec]

He he he.:smallamused:

[Querzis]

You know, it's threads like this (and all of the other ones that are commenting on Hinjo lately) that remind me of a famous phrase:

Victory has many fathers; defeat is an orphan. (and the countless variations of the phrase)

As long as someone is a winner, people will flock to be around them. But should someone lose, even in an impossible situation, then they often will find people either deserting them in droves, or find people criticizing every little thing that went on to the defeat.

Could Hinjo have done things differently? Sure. But lets not forget a very important fact: Azure City (and by extension Hinjo) was exactly six seconds away from victory in this battle. If Miko hadn't destroyed the Sapphire Gate when she did, the Xykon/Redcloak threat would have been eliminated. Even if Miko had attacked it just one round later, Xykon would have been destroyed, along with Redcloak. And I tend to think that Soon would have booked it double-time to tell Hinjo (or someone else) about the location of the phylactery before he faded away back to the Celestial Realms (presuming that the phylactery wasn't destroyed in the blast).

And let's be realistic for a moment. Azure City had less than a day to prepare for the immediate specifics of this threat. Not to mention that: The most powerful member of the SG went nuts a day before the battle and had to be jailed.
The Beloved Lord of Azure City was assassinated just before the battle.
The Nobles, sensing weakness (and a political opportunity), abandoned the city when each and every soldier counted.
Because there was little-to-no warning, the Sapphire Guard was unable to call for badly needed reinforcements.
The Court Wizard was dead before the battle ever began.
The Azure City Walls were breached almost immediately, and in a completely unforeseeable manner.
The invading army was lead by a creature that far outclassed anything that AC could throw at him, and that army had many, many High Level Lieutenants to occupy the High Level Defenders of Azure City.

Quite frankly, the fact that Azure City was six seconds away from (an admittedly pyrrhic) victory is a miracle. Azure City should have been blasted off the face of the earth, when you take all of the circumstances into account. In fact, most board members, before the battle began, were predicting that Azure City would lose, and in a Big Big Way.

So I don't quite see why it is Hinjo's fault for losing a battle that he had no business winning. :smallsmile:


I dont quite see how its Hinjo fault as well...but you just made me realize how much its all Miko fault if the bad guys won. Shes also the one who showed Xykon where the gate was!

[Elandegenerate]

well, as for the win or loose, I find in every good story, the hero would rather die and fail being a good person, a hero, and true to themselves. I mean, Hypothetically speaking , Hinjo could have asked the dark forces, just even thought it, to trade in his good power for dark to stop miko and save azure city, they would have grated a great goody goody like him such power immediately. I mean thats completely hypothetical, but im just saying that winners are often bastards.

Im reading Dragonlance, and the dark godess has hidden the world from the other gods, has her Profit converting the populouse to worship her, killing off the heros who stopped her multiple times, and are killing all those who oppose her. She is kicking ass and she is still and evil biotch.



----------


On a different note, i may not have read every single post perfectly, but i've yet to see anything hinjo did wrong

[Yoritomo Himeko]

After reading some of the previous strips, I've rethought my opinions of Hinjo.

I've noticed over the past twenty-five strips or so, not only has Rich given him a lot of attention, he tries to make him as likable and sympathetic as possible.

As a person, he's fine, even if a bit shallow. He's Azure City's Everyman. As a paladin, though, he is really weak. He's good at not getting killed, but that's it. He only basic fighting abilities and Lay on Hands. No feats, no special skills, nothing that anyone else can do. Is he going to gain anything in the future?

We've only seen him in the roles of paladin and ruler. What would he be like outside of Azure City? Now I wonder if Rich has something in store for him.

Here is some speculation about Hinjo's fate.

I honestly don't see how Azure City is going to be won back anytime soon. It's not like the nobles would form any kind of alliance with him, temporary or otherwise. And that's assuming the nobles could even take on Redcloak and his army.

Even if Hinjo and the nobles formed an uneasy alliance, what's stopping them from seizing power from Hinjo and putting themselves in charge? The troops are loyal to the nobles, not Hinjo. All Hinjo has are Captain Axe, Daigo, Kazumi, Lien, O-Chul (if someone ever rescues him :smallfrown: ), and the OOTS. That's ten people, eleven if you could count a revived Roy) against five thousand troops. Even if they could summon Celia, I don't think she could help much.

And don't forget, there is a hole in the sky that needs to be sealed up before people can live there again. The others didn't need to be sealed up as quickly despite their size because those were in uninhabited places. And I don't remember where it said Hinjo knows how to do this.

Anyway, all I'm trying to say is that I think Hinjo, along with Lien and company, will get a quest of their own. Since he already knows there are other Sapphire Guards out their, he will want to seek their help. I don't think we're going to see this in the comic, but I think maybe this will be another "all-new" book.

[Oeep Snaec]

As a person, he's fine, even if a bit shallow. He's Azure City's Everyman. As a paladin, though, he is really weak. He's good at not getting killed, but that's it. He only basic fighting abilities and Lay on Hands. No feats, no special skills, nothing that anyone else can do. Is he going to gain anything in the future?



Hinjo hasn't really been shown in any major (possibly theatrical) combat situations. He dealt with the ninjas and stuff, but he hasn't really had a chance to show off skills he may have. Besides, pallys don't get tons of feats and such, not like fighters. He doesn't have that many skill points either, so he doesn't have super jacked-up skills to use. Aside from Smite Evil, do paladins really have that much in their arsenal? No

[Yoritomo Himeko]

Hinjo hasn't really been shown in any major (possibly theatrical) combat situations. He dealt with the ninjas and stuff, but he hasn't really had a chance to show off skills he may have. Besides, pallys don't get tons of feats and such, not like fighters. He doesn't have that many skill points either, so he doesn't have super jacked-up skills to use. Aside from Smite Evil, do paladins really have that much in their arsenal? No

Now I remember why I never use paladins. :smallannoyed:

[Morty]

Hinjo hasn't really been shown in any major (possibly theatrical) combat situations. He dealt with the ninjas and stuff, but he hasn't really had a chance to show off skills he may have. Besides, pallys don't get tons of feats and such, not like fighters. He doesn't have that many skill points either, so he doesn't have super jacked-up skills to use. Aside from Smite Evil, do paladins really have that much in their arsenal? No

Spells and Lay on hands. Both are quite good, in fact I'm surprised no paladin has ever used any spell yet.

[factotum]

Spells and Lay on hands. Both are quite good, in fact I'm surprised no paladin has ever used any spell yet.

They have. Watch Hinjo during his fight with Miko--he heals himself after her first attack. Miko may well also have used Lay on Hands at some point, although if she did I forget where. We can also assume that Lien healed herself "off camera" since she said to Durkon that she'd used up all her own healing before he and the others arrived at the docks.

[Morty]

They have. Watch Hinjo during his fight with Miko--he heals himself after her first attack. Miko may well also have used Lay on Hands at some point, although if she did I forget where. We can also assume that Lien healed herself "off camera" since she said to Durkon that she'd used up all her own healing before he and the others arrived at the docks.

I meant that I've never seen paladins in OOTS using spells, not lay on hands. Though on the other hand, most useful paladin spells are likely to be cast off-screen, like Bless or Protection from Evil.

[Kioran]

I personally think that Soon is the Paragon-Paladin, with Miko and Hinjo as the examples of imperfect Paladins.
Miko is weak of faith and makes the worng decisions, Hinjo is weak in power, bumlbing, and slightly incompetent. So one lacks power and the other the right direction. With both, there was, and maybe even will, be a chance to improve and move past their weakness. Elan and Roy had what I´d like to call "character apotheosis" - an event that drastically improved their outlook and effectivity. Haley had one. And maybe it´s not restricted to the main protagonists...
But anyway, yeah, the OP is right - Hinjo has good intentions but is teh suck in any serious situation.

[Green Bean]

I personally think that Soon is the Paragon-Paladin, with Miko and Hinjo as the examples of imperfect Paladins.
Miko is weak of faith and makes the worng decisions, Hinjo is weak in power, bumlbing, and slightly incompetent. So one lacks power and the other the right direction. With both, there was, and maybe even will, be a chance to improve and move past their weakness. Elan and Roy had what I´d like to call "character apotheosis" - an event that drastically improved their outlook and effectivity. Haley had one. And maybe it´s not restricted to the main protagonists...
But anyway, yeah, the OP is right - Hinjo has good intentions but is teh suck in any serious situation.

Yeah. Anyone who can't hold their own against vastly more powerful opponents is obviously teh suck. :smallwink:

I fail to see what Hinjo could have done better in most of the situations he found himself in. The nobles would have left regardless of what Hinjo did. Shojo himself had to fake senility to exercise even a bit of control, and unless you're faulting Hinjo for failing to make a nobility blackmail collection, there's not much that could've been done. The battle plan was done as well as any other character could have given the circumstances. They were outnumbered, surprised, demoralized. Of course, I personally think any plan would have failed because of Xykon. Xykon was mobile, unpredictable, and an easy match for whatever he fights he picked (except for a certain ghostly paladin, of course). You can predict what large bodies of soldiers will do to some extent, but an individual is unpredictable. Frankly, I'm not seeing the incompetence.

As for him being weaker, I agree. He's lower in level than the PCs and the antagonists. But, it's not really a dramatic flaw if it can be solved with a few level ups, is it?

[Shadic]

Hinjo is what, level 11 max? He's in a level designed for higher-level characters, with higher-level villains. Every fight that he's been in has been against either a higher-level character, or with him being teamed-up on.