OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[WalkingTheShade]

You meant: "Glad to hear it" : )

[schmunzel]

So much for three quarters of the last thread and possibly a solid third of the one before
Loki hates the undead should be plenty of reason to turn the "icky" things :P

Additionally I think we got some evidence concerning her chaotic character :)

sch

[Suicune]

The comic uses the wrong "hear", literally unreadable

So, what's Kudzu trying to say? I heard it as "thunder", as nothing else comes to mind, but it could also be meaningless.

[DaggerPen]

Man, this entire thing had me in stitches, but Belkar was actually the funniest part of it for me, which I almost never say. (He's grown on me since his character development, but I find that Roy, Elan and Haley tend to deliver my favorite punchlines.) Also, answers on the Turn Undead thing! Good work, Giant.


The comic uses the wrong "hear", literally unreadable

So, what's Kudzu trying to say? I heard it as "thunder", as nothing else comes to mind, but it could also be meaningless.

... legit can't tell if this is sarcasm or not.

"Turn Undead," if you're serious.

[littlebum2002]

OMFG Durkon's baby trying to Turn Undead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[schmunzel]

The comic uses the wrong "hear", literally unreadable

So, what's Kudzu trying to say? I heard it as "thunder", as nothing else comes to mind, but it could also be meaningless.

turn undead :)
It seems to be important for them :)

Now does Loki dislike the undead because of his daughter ?
It even might be the reason why he conceived the wager in the first place
sch

[Doug Lampert]

OMFG Durkon's baby trying to Turn Undead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Which sort of implies that mom says those words often.

[WalkingTheShade]

So, what's Kudzu trying to say? I heard it as "thunder", as nothing else comes to mind, but it could also be meaningless.
I parse it as babyspeak thunder too. Law of Conservation of Detail (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLawOfConservationOfDetail) says it's probably not meaningless.

Aawwww, "turn undead"... cute!

[Suicune]

Man, this entire thing had me in stitches, but Belkar was actually the funniest part of it for me, which I almost never say. (He's grown on me since his character development, but I find that Roy, Elan and Haley tend to deliver my favorite punchlines.) Also, answers on the Turn Undead thing! Good work, Giant.



... legit can't tell if this is sarcasm or not.



Suddenly, I'm feeling a whole lot more idiotic. Thank you for spelling out the obvious for me.

[TRH]

So much for half of the last thread!
Loki hates the undead should be plenty of reason to turn the "icky" things :P

Additionally I think we got some evidence concerning her chaotic character :)

sch

Do we? I mean, we've got prior evidence of that, sure, but her complaint about Durkon "embracing such a descent into unnatural depravity"...honestly, it reminds me of Miko. I don't think how well she internalized what he had to say to her before, if nothing else.

[JumboWheat01]

*sniff* A young cleric in the making. A thing of beauty, that is. Brings a tear to the eye.

[Ruck]

Do we? I mean, we've got prior evidence of that, sure, but her complaint about Durkon "embracing such a descent into unnatural depravity"...honestly, it reminds me of Miko. I don't think how well she internalized what he had to say to her before, if nothing else.

"How about you not tell me what to do, human?" I thought was the evidence of Chaotic behavior.

She's obviously quite angry at Durkon for knocking her up and leaving her; hence "deeply unscrupulous."

Unrelated observations:

Kudzu, eh?

Is that the Thieves' Guild in the final panel? The rain suggests Greysky City, and that looks like Jenny at the card table. (I suppose that could be Hank from behind, as well.)

edit: Also, whatever Loki's actual alignment, it seems like his ability to grant Turn Undead to Hilgya is explained in panel six. "Lo, they are such gross, icky things" indeed.

[schmunzel]

Do we? I mean, we've got prior evidence of that, sure, but her complaint about Durkon "embracing such a descent into unnatural depravity"...honestly, it reminds me of Miko. I don't think how well she internalized what he had to say to her before, if nothing else.

I read the depravity of character as her complaining about dumping her after getting her with child.
It has more to do with him not conforming to her views of what hes supposed to do than abiding to any formal code of conduct.
(though both parts have a certain overlap in this case)

At least thats my interpretation


sch

[2D8HP]

I'm totally going to try to get my 17 month old son to say "Tunn unn deh" now.

[EccentricFellow]

I love the look on everyone's face in the last panel. You can see the thought in each of their heads, "How badly do I want to win this?" Heh. Good one!

[schmunzel]

"How about you not tell me what to do, human?" I thought was the evidence of Chaotic behavior.

She's obviously quite angry at Durkon for knocking her up and leaving her; hence "deeply unscrupulous."

Unrelated observations:

Kudzu, eh?

Is that the Thieves' Guild in the final panel? The rain suggests Greysky City, and that looks like Jenny at the card table. (I suppose that could be Hank from behind, as well.)

what exactly does Kudzu mean that Im not aware of?
It doesnt strike me as a very dwarvish sounding name.
I would have expected that as a name for an Orc.


sch

[Anarion]

Boy, I hope that babysitter in the last panel at least had a good hand and wasn't bluffing.

[littlebum2002]

Which sort of implies that mom says those words often.

Yup! Plus it's cute as Hel

[DaggerPen]

Suddenly, I'm feeling a whole lot more idiotic. Thank you for spelling out the obvious for me.

Haha, it happens to the best of us! :smallsmile:

[hroþila]

I guess that's a hint that Loki is still Evil but he simply grants Turn Undead powers because ewww. And while it's still not explicitly stated, this strip also pretty much confirms that Hilgya didn't know about Durkon's vampirization.

Not sure what Belkar's issue with "Kudzu" is, but then again that name was 100% meaningless to me until I looked it up 5 minutes ago so I'm not sure what the average reader will get from it.

[Fyraltari]

"Are we sure that's not a common name"
"are we going to glide past the fact that she name her son Kudzu?"


Glad to see Belkar keeps his wits about him.

Also whoever it was in the last thread that thought Minrah and Hylgia looked to much alike, kudos, you were on to something!

[TRH]

I read the depravity of character as her complaining about dumping her after getting her with child.
It has more to do with him not conforming to her views of what hes supposed to do than abiding to any formal code of conduct.
(though both parts have a certain overlap in this case)

At least thats my interpretation


sch

Fair enough. I guess the point of concern is how she seems to have ignored his stated reasons for leaving her, interpreting it as pure selfishness on his part. And she's indulged in self-serving interpretations of the past before, so it seems like that's going to stick around.

I guess Belkar hasn't provided much internal drama in a while, and with Jerkon and the Mechane crew not here, someone's got to induce conflict.

[Peelee]

what exactly does Kudzu mean that Im not aware of?

It is a plant. A very invasive plant. A plant that overruns other plants. Granted, it's very pretty. It looks like the plant version of newfallen snow (from what I've seen of newfallen snow on the TV and internets, of course). Come to the South, you'll hear a lot about it.

ETA:
https://wonderopolis.org/_img?img=/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/909.jpg&transform=resizeCrop,720,450
https://s3.amazonaws.com/user-media.venngage.com/448016-9c2faa93a97d0279cb4dec03d2a10b06.jpeg
https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/journalpatriot.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/6/b6/6b65671e-3f83-11e5-9f9c-734a5a691cb2/55c8dc39efb57.image.jpg?resize=760%2C509

[Syncrogti]

What a little cutie! copying his momma!

[The MunchKING]

Kudzu? I guess he grows on you.

Bada bumbum ching!

[Flying Turtle]

Soooo, I see that last panel and all I can think is, what's the over under on Belkar having impregnated Jenny with a bouncing baby quarterling?

[a1chemi]

"How about you not tell me what to do, human?" I thought was the evidence of Chaotic behavior.

She's obviously quite angry at Durkon for knocking her up and leaving her; hence "deeply unscrupulous."

Unrelated observations:

Kudzu, eh?

Is that the Thieves' Guild in the final panel? The rain suggests Greysky City, and that looks like Jenny at the card table. (I suppose that could be Hank from behind, as well.)

edit: Also, whatever Loki's actual alignment, it seems like his ability to grant Turn Undead to Hilgya is explained in panel six. "Lo, they are such gross, icky things" indeed.

Definitely. It's Haley's lead in to the punch line panel and she would be familiar with the Church of Loki given their close ties with the Thieve's Guild. re: looking for Roy's resurrection, sending to Durkon, and old-blind-brainy Pete.

[Clistenes]

I think Kudzu is supposed to mean "F**k Dwarfkind...!"

Dwarves believe that trees are secretly intelligent, evil beings who pretend to be non-sentient, but slowly use their roots to collapse dwarven tunnels on purpose. Kudzu is one of the fastest-growing plants on Earth. Calling the kid Kudzu is kinda like calling him Satan.

[DaggerPen]

what exactly does Kudzu mean that Im not aware of?
It doesnt strike me as a very dwarvish sounding name.
I would have expected that as a name for an Orc.


sch

Kudzu is an originally East Asian plant (its name in English is derived from the Japanese kuzu) that's become common throughout much of the Southeastern United States. In much of East Asia it is used as a foodstuff and base for various dishes. In the US, it is known for being a notoriously, unbelievably resilient invasive species that will literally kill other plants by growing so thickly over them that they can't get sun anymore and wither away.

A few of my favorite quotes from the Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kudzu), to give you a sense of what "kudzu" tends to immediately evoke in most familiar English-speakers:


The plant is edible, but often sprayed with herbicides.


Cutting off the above-ground vines is not sufficient for an immediate kill. It is necessary to destroy all removed crown material.


After initial herbicidal treatment, follow-up treatments and monitoring are usually necessary, depending on how long the kudzu has been growing in the area. It may require up to 10 years of supervision after the initial chemical placement to make sure the plant does not return.


While fire is not an effective way to kill kudzu

Anyway, I somehow think that this kid is gonna be pretty safe from harm :smalltongue:

[The MunchKING]

what exactly does Kudzu mean that Im not aware of?


It's a noxious, fast-growing plant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kudzu) widely considered to be one of the hardest plants to stop from invading and taking over everything. :D

[Grey_Wolf_c]

what exactly does Kudzu mean that Im not aware of?
sch

It's an invasive weed famous for being one of the fastest growing plants in the world. Large sections of the US are covered in the stuff.

Unrelatedly, it seems I was right in that Loki grants turning undead to his clerics because of his hatred of the undead.

GW

[Ruck]

what exactly does Kudzu mean that Im not aware of?
It doesnt strike me as a very dwarvish sounding name.
I would have expected that as a name for an Orc.


sch


It is a plant. A very invasive plant. A plant that overruns other plants. Granted, it's very pretty. It looks like the plant version of newfallen snow (from what I've seen of newfallen snow on the TV and internets, of course). Come to the South, you'll hear a lot about it.

A good example of kudzu would be the cover art to R.E.M.'s Murmur.

I imagine that Belkar, like me, is wondering why Hilgya named her son after a plant to begin with. (Although there is a certain logic, cruel though it may be, in naming an unwanted, unplanned child 'Kudzu.')

[Sc00by]

what exactly does Kudzu mean that Im not aware of?
It doesnt strike me as a very dwarvish sounding name.
I would have expected that as a name for an Orc.
sch

I didn't know either, but google says:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kudzu_in_the_United_States

it's an invasive fast growing (unwanted) plant. Someone to whom it is local will probably chime in with more info.

We have Japanese Knotweed in the UK, I assume it's similar...

edit: it seems everyone else (ever) replied while I was typing! ;)

[The MunchKING]

it's an invasive fast growing (unwanted) plant. Someone to whom it is local will probably chime in with more info.


Really hard to kill too. About the only thing I've heard of that was good at killing it was goats, as they eat it down to the ground and then the roots so it doesn't grow back.

[Ruck]

Definitely. It's Haley's lead in to the punch line panel and she would be familiar with the Church of Loki given their close ties with the Thieve's Guild. re: looking for Roy's resurrection, sending to Durkon, and old-blind-brainy Pete.
I also just realized that it ties into the strip title.


I think Kudzu is supposed to mean "F**k Dwarfkind...!"

Dwarves believe that trees are secretly intelligent, evil beings who pretend to be non-sentient, but slowly use their roots to collapse dwarven tunnels on purpose. Kudzu is one of the fastest-growing plants on Earth. Calling the kid Kudzu is kinda like calling him Satan.

I did wonder about this possibility, though I told myself "Why wouldn't Hilgya just name him after an actual tree, then?"

[Menarker]

what exactly does Kudzu mean that Im not aware of?
It doesnt strike me as a very dwarvish sounding name.
I would have expected that as a name for an Orc.



A quick search at Wikipedia (and what little I already knew of plant life and the ton that I know of TVTropes) mentions that a Kudzu is a weed that grows and spreads with alarming speed, killing most other plant life by heavy shading and deprivation of nutrients/resources. (TVtrope mentions the Kudzu Plot where the number of plot-branches grow so numerous that it overwhelms the story/audience. Also Alien Kudzu, which is about foreign materials infesting our world at a scary rate. In fact, Alien Kudzu has lots of entries listed about many earth-variety plants related to or behaving like Kudzu.)

My interpretion is that it is basically an insulting name to Durkon and the whole dwarfish tradition, by giving a dwarf a name that is...
A: a plant, which is regarded very poorly to a subterran race that fears trees.
B: a bitter jab about how dwarf culture has suffocated her freedom. Even more so with Durkon who has saddled her with a baby which would cut into her freedom-oriented lifestyle in many ways. (Although she's trying to compensate for it.)

EDIT: And I've been ninjaed several times over in the course of writing this...

[schmunzel]

It is a plant. A very invasive plant. A plant that overruns other plants. Granted, it's very pretty. It looks like the plant version of newfallen snow (from what I've seen of newfallen snow on the TV and internets, of course). Come to the South, you'll hear a lot about it.

ETA:
https://wonderopolis.org/_img?img=/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/909.jpg&transform=resizeCrop,720,450
https://s3.amazonaws.com/user-media.venngage.com/448016-9c2faa93a97d0279cb4dec03d2a10b06.jpeg
https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/journalpatriot.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/6/b6/6b65671e-3f83-11e5-9f9c-734a5a691cb2/55c8dc39efb57.image.jpg?resize=760%2C509



Kudzu? I guess he grows on you.

Bada bumbum ching!


I think Kudzu is supposed to mean "F**k Dwarfkind...!"

Dwarves believe that trees are secretly intelligent, evil beings who pretend to be non-sentient, but slowly use their roots to collapse dwarven tunnels on purpose. Kudzu is one of the fastest-growing plants on Earth. Calling the kid Kudzu is kinda like calling him Satan.


Kudzu is an originally East Asian plant (its name in English is derived from the Japanese kuzu) that's become common throughout much of the Southeastern United States. In much of East Asia it is used as a foodstuff and base for various dishes. In the US, it is known for being a notoriously, unbelievably resilient invasive species that will literally kill other plants by growing so thickly over them that they can't get sun anymore and wither away.

A few of my favorite quotes from the Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kudzu), to give you a sense of what "kudzu" tends to immediately evoke in most familiar English-speakers:


Anyway, I somehow think that this kid is gonna be pretty safe from harm :smalltongue:


A quick search at Wikipedia (and what little I already knew of plant life and the ton that I know of TVTropes) mentions that a Kudzu is a weed that grows and spreads with alarming speed, killing most other plant life by heavy shading and deprivation of resources. (TVtrope mentions the Kudzu Plot where the number of plot-branches grow so numerous that it overwhelms the story/audience.)

My interpretion is that it is basically an insulting name to Durkon and the whole dwarfish tradition, by giving a dwarf a name that is...
A: a plant, which is regarded very poorly to a subterran race that fears trees.
B: a bitter jab about how dwarf culture has suffocated her freedom. Even more so with Durkon who has saddled her with a baby which would cut into her freedom-oriented lifestyle in many ways. (Although she's trying to compensate for it.)



thks a lot guys that now makes a hell of a lot of sense to me :)

sch

edit damn it what a response :P cudos to all of you :)
Mommy probably hasnt thought it through properly though :(
to be named after a weed is sure not going to help the little guy in the long run.
But Insulting others seemed to have been of greater import :(

[Peelee]

I imagine that Belkar, like me, is wondering why Hilgya named her son after a plant to begin with. (Although there is a certain logic, cruel though it may be, in naming an unwanted, unplanned child 'Kudzu.')

I figured it was a reference to how she hates Dwarven culture. Dwarves don't like trees? Name the kid Kudzu. At the very least, it'll grow on you. Dammit, Munchking beat me to it.

[Fyraltari]

Little Kudzu is too adorable to handle. Look at him :
Panel 2 I'm moving yeeah!
Panel 6 random air hug
Panel 10 can I get the shiny head-thing, mommy?

Plus "tunn unn deh!" :biggrin:

[Dragonus45]

Gotta love how delusional Hilgya is being in regards to the "unscrupulous" Durkon. Although given how busted clerics are she probably is right that Kudzu is safest sharing a square with her.

[Fyraltari]

I did wonder about this possibility, though I told myself "Why wouldn't Hilgya just name him after an actual tree, then?"

Trees are easy to kill.
A plant that is a nuisance but look deceptively beautiful, that probably resonates with the part of her personnality that made her choose to worship Loki over any other CE Northern God.

[Draconi Redfir]

between this and the last comic i can't help but think the giant is trying to quell the fans a bit. YES she's still a cleric of loki, YES she can turn undead, NO that is not something you need to be fussing about :smalltongue:

[Giggling Ghast]

Unrelatedly, it seems I was right in that Loki grants turning undead to his clerics because of his hatred of the undead.

I'm a little unclear on my mythology: why does Loki hate the undead? I thought his daughter was half-undead.

[hroþila]

So no one really thinks of the comic strip "Kudzu" then. That simplifies matters.

[schmunzel]

between this and the last comic i can't help but think the giant is trying to quell the fans a bit. YES she's still a cleric of loki, YES she can turn undead, NO that is not something you need to be fussing about :smalltongue:

Either he is a true seer (a) OR
he has a very finely tuned cristal ball (b) OR
he secretly peeks into the forums to read whats up (c) OR
he has constant nightmares 5 nights out of 7 where he dreams of the most frustrating ways the forumites could dissect his work (d)

my money is on the last one (d)

sch

[The MunchKING]

I'm a little unclear on my mythology: why does Loki hate the undead? I thought his daughter was half-undead.

maybe that's what turned him off of them. He doth KNOW that lo they are gross, icky things.

[The MunchKING]

So no one really thinks of the comic strip "Kudzu" then. That simplifies matters.

I had forgotten about that one actually.

Was that the one with the old lady and her dog?

[BannedInSchool]

Naw, obviously it's referring to the vintage Kudzu-Mazda sports car: :smallwink:https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/CE0AAOSw-W5UtYmq/s-l300.jpg

[DaggerPen]

I'm a little unclear on my mythology: why does Loki hate the undead? I thought his daughter was half-undead.

She is, but they are not on what I would call (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html) super great terms (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1083.html). Especially since the last comic heavily implied that Loki specifically sent Hilgya here to help stop Hel's plan. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1106.html)

[137beth]

Took me longer than it should have to figure out what Kudzu was trying to say:redface:

[Jasdoif]

I guess that's a hint that Loki is still Evil but he simply grants Turn Undead powers because ewww.Or a hint that Loki and Hilgya aren't Evil.

[Fyraltari]

I'm a little unclear on my mythology: why does Loki hate the undead? I thought his daughter was half-undead.

Comic!Loki is not the same as Myth!Loki, for starter he is Thor's brother. Their personnalities are similar but details about them need not be.

Also in myth Hel is half-dead half-living but her parents are the same as Fenrir's (a big wolf) and Jormungandr (A big snake) : two giants. So Loki does not love the dead if that is what you thought. I can't recall any myth were Loki had to deal with undeads so it can go either way.

Hel might not even be half dead in this comic. Guess we'll never know unless the Giant tells us or her skirt gets lifted and I'd sooner believe Xykon operaating an ice cream truck than that ever happening.

[Onyavar]

Maybe Loki is actually fond of plants? That would also explain why he is regarded as evil ;-P

Also, sheeesh Hilgya, that line about being used and all.
If I remember things right, Hilgya was the one who actively sought to seduce Durkon. That she now seems to think that Durkon is a battleskirt-chasing gigolo is indicative for her losing her marbles.

By which I don't mean that Durkon's awful breakup speech wasn't totally mean and lacking all understanding of her situation. That Durkon back then would always choose Tradition over Tolerance.

[The MunchKING]

Hel might not even be half dead in this comic. Guess we'll never know unless the Giant tells us or her skirt gets lifted and I'd sooner believe Xykon operaating an ice cream truck than that ever happening.

Where as other Gods have feet and legs, she kind of trails off into a whispy ghost-butt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1082.html).

That's a lot less gross and icky than her usual mythological portrayal where its more zombie like, but still works quite well for "Half-dead".

[Veya]

I did wonder about this possibility, though I told myself "Why wouldn't Hilgya just name him after an actual tree, then?"
Probably didn't want her kid to end up becoming a Pokémon Professor.

[hroþila]

I had forgotten about that one actually.

Was that the one with the old lady and her dog?
No idea, I didn't know it existed. It's enough for me to know it is almost certainly a reference to the plant and to nothing else.

Or a hint that Loki and Hilgya aren't Evil.
It doesn't explain away that SoD panel, so I consider this far less likely. But this topic was already discussed ad nauseam last time, so...

[Fyraltari]

Where as other Gods have feet and legs, she kind of trails off into a whispy ghost-butt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1082.html).

Hey, you're right I never saw that. Thanks.

[CletusMusashi]

My first thought was that she named him Kudzu because kudzu kills trees.

[The MunchKING]

Probably didn't want her kid to end up becoming a Pokémon Professor.

I legitimately LOLed.


Hey, you're right I never saw that. Thanks.

It got brought up when I was bringing up the half-dead thing back in the Godsmoot strips.

[Jasdoif]

But this topic was already discussed ad nauseam last time, so...The comment leaves the information on the topic unchanged, yes.

Maybe the takeaway from the panel should be that we saw Kudzu attempt to say "turn undead" without the special effects associated with turning undead; maybe there'll be fewer "the baby was doing the turning!" comments this time around. I wouldn't bet on it, though.

[danielxcutter]

Aw, little Kudzu is really cute. The "Tunn unn deh! Tunn unn deh!" and the helmet reaching parts especially.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, that’s several questions answered. Hilgya does not seem too fond of Durkon these days

[TruDivination]

Omg Durkon's kid is named after a highly potent tree-killer. I think he'd approve.

[Dragolord]

Belkar looks almost disturbed in the penultimate panel. Have we finally discovered evidence of him having standards?

[Jasdoif]

So no one really thinks of the comic strip "Kudzu" then. That simplifies matters.Oddly enough, I keep thinking of a different kudzu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kudzu_(computer_daemon))....I suspect it's named after the plant one, though.

[rman]

OMFG Durkon's baby trying to Turn Undead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If Kudzu has gone into battle in the carrier a few times he might have a few levels.

[ti'esar]

...wait, people were seriously thinking that the (hilariously-named) baby turned the vampires?

Also, wow, Hilgya is holding a serious grudge against Durkon.

[Lethologica]

Soooo, I see that last panel and all I can think is, what's the over under on Belkar having impregnated Jenny with a bouncing baby quarterling?
Zero, since the baby would be a three-fourthling. :smalltongue:


Or a hint that Loki and Hilgya aren't Evil.
Well, it's explicitly a statement that Loki grants his clerics Turn Undead because ewww. To be a hint that Loki and Hilgya aren't Evil one would have to further conclude that hating the undead is a necessarily non-Evil trait. So one of these claimed hints is a lot stronger than the other.

[wumpus]

I had forgotten about that one actually.

Was that the one with the old lady and her dog?

No, it described the southern town of Bypass, North Carolina. The lead character's name was Kudzu Debose (thus setting up this comic well).

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ComicStrip/Kudzu [warning: tvtrope link].

[Doug Lampert]

It's a noxious, fast-growing plant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kudzu) widely considered to be one of the hardest plants to stop from invading and taking over everything. :D
Unless there are cattle in the area, at which point it's not a problem.

Cattle love kudzu, kudzu does not reciprocate the feeling, planting grazing land in kudzu won't work, the cattle eat the kudzu faster than even it can grow.

Basically, if you do anything to regularly kill the surface growth in an area, mow it, let a cow graze it, burn it off, and do it every few weeks, then Kudzu never gets established in that area, and it will die back if already in the area. grass is arguably a tougher plant (as various grasses thrive under exactly this sort of treatment).

Claims that you can't kill kudzu come from people doing something once or twice, and being surprised that the plant comes back from that.

[Rob Roy]

Comic!Loki is not the same as Myth!Loki, for starter he is Thor's brother. Their personnalities are similar but details about them need not be.

Also in myth Hel is half-dead half-living but her parents are the same as Fenrir's (a big wolf) and Jormungandr (A big snake) : two giants. So Loki does not love the dead if that is what you thought. I can't recall any myth were Loki had to deal with undeads so it can go either way.

Hel might not even be half dead in this comic. Guess we'll never know unless the Giant tells us or her skirt gets lifted and I'd sooner believe Xykon operaating an ice cream truck than that ever happening.

My understanding of this post is that you are claiming that Hel, Fenrir, and the Midguard serpent are not Loki's chlidren. With that in mind:

Per CH. 34 of the Prose Edda, Loki's children by Angrboda children include but are not limited too, Fenrir, Jormungandr, and Hel. Per the genealogies in Carolyne Larrington's translation of the Poetic Edda (pages xxxiv & and xxxv in the introduction), the same is also listed, but Loki's child by his wife Sigyn is also listed. Curiously, Sleipnir isn't.

Other fun facts about Norse mythology:

In verse 9 of Loki' Flyting, Loki refers to an occasion where Loki and Odin became blood brothers.

Attila the Hun (as Atli, king of the Huns) is a major character in the heroic section of the Poetic Edda. Other versions of this story can be found as an Icelandic saga or an opera by Wagner.

An army of the dead will will rise during Ragnorok, led by Hel, and they will be manning a boat made of discarded human fingernails. Which, according to Snorri, is why you should dispose of fingernail clippings in a neat and hygenic manner.

[wumpus]

...wait, people were seriously thinking that the (hilariously-named) baby turned the vampires?

Also, wow, Hilgya is holding a serious grudge against Durkon.

We knew that when she showed up. Although I think Brynhild might have been a better name if Rich had setup the full psycho-ex plan (probably not. She showed up early enough I don't think the plot had started).

[Sermil]

Little Kudzu is too adorable to handle. Look at him :
Panel 2 I'm moving yeeah!
Panel 6 random air hug
Panel 10 can I get the shiny head-thing, mommy?

Plus "tunn unn deh!" :biggrin:

Actually, I think in panel 2 little Kudzu is trying to imitate Mom. Look how his hand positions almost exactly mirror hers.
Either way, though: So cute! Cute baby!

[Kayvaan]

It may be completely unrelated, but the name 'Kudzu' shows up on TVTropes as a Kudzu Plot: a plot with many dangling plot threads that makes the story needlessly complicated. Maybe it's another of The Giant's self-deprecating jokes?

[wumpus]

Unless there are cattle in the area, at which point it's not a problem.

Cattle love kudzu, kudzu does not reciprocate the feeling, planting grazing land in kudzu won't work, the cattle eat the kudzu faster than even it can grow.

Basically, if you do anything to regularly kill the surface growth in an area, mow it, let a cow graze it, burn it off, and do it every few weeks, then Kudzu never gets established in that area, and it will die back if already in the area. grass is arguably a tougher plant (as various grasses thrive under exactly this sort of treatment).

Claims that you can't kill kudzu come from people doing something once or twice, and being surprised that the plant comes back from that.

Will goats work? That sounds like a job for goats (although they might finish everything else off as well).

[Fyraltari]

Claims that you can't kill kudzu come from people doing something once or twice, and being surprised that the plant comes back from that.
Frankly if something comes back from the dead twice, I forgive you for thinking it can't be killed and, in fact, is not a plant at all but a messenger of the nameless things who dwell in the starless void, older and vaster than mankind ever will be, come to destroy us all in its glorious splendour.I've beenreading some Lovecraft lately, does it show?


My understanding of this post is that you are claiming that Hel, Fenrir, and the Midguard serpent are not Loki's chlidren.
Loki and Angrboda are both giants by birth. Which is probably why Loki can shapeshift that much.

[The MunchKING]

Will goats work? That sounds like a job for goats (although they might finish everything else off as well).

I heard cows weren't thorough enough, and it needed goats.

[Jay R]

So I guess she has no more interest in other people's ideas about baby names than in their ideas about anything else.

[LuisDantas]

So no one really thinks of the comic strip "Kudzu" then. That simplifies matters.

I was wondering if no one else knew of that strip.

[Rob Roy]

Loki and Angrboda are both giants by birth. Which is probably why Loki can shapeshift that much.

I understand this perfectly well. Odin, his brothers, Thor's mother, and few others are all of direct Jotun origin as well.

Your post seemed to imply that the parents of Hel (et al.) were jotun other than Loki. Since it led me to believe that is what was being said, it is reasonable to assume that other would come to the same conclusion, so I elaborated.

[Unoriginal]

turn undead :)
It seems to be important for them :)

Now does Loki dislike the undead because of his daughter ?
It even might be the reason why he conceived the wager in the first place
sch

I think it's the reverse: by having his Clerics fight Undead, he's making it more certain Hel doesn't win her bet.

[Fyraltari]

I understand this perfectly well. Odin, his brothers, Thor's mother, and few others are all of direct Jotun origin as well.

Your post seemed to imply that the parents of Hel (et al.) were jotun other than Loki. Since it led me to believe that is what was being said, it is reasonable to assume that other would come to the same conclusion, so I elaborated.
Uh, my bad then.

[Gift Jeraff]

Here's my take on Loki and the undead (I still believe both Loki and Hilgya are Chaotic Evil):

-Loki deliberately robs Hel out of souls and ticks her off
-as the Northern goddess of undeath, Hel manages to bar Loki from drawing from the Plane of Negative Energy
-instead of trying to contest that, Loki pulls strings to qualify as a Positive Energy channeling deity
-this now makes Loki an incredibly appealing evil deity, since his clerics are all great healers
-every evil adventuring party wants a cleric of Loki
-various evil groups like the Thieves' Guild sponsor the Church of Loki for cheaper, no-questions-asked healing
-the Church of Loki is less likely to be sought out by paladins and do-gooders, since it plays a vital role in keeping people alive regardless of alignment and is better than the alternative of letting other evil churches gain a foothold in communities like Greysky City
-all of this + removing Hel's influence on the world lets him maintain his status as the most powerful Evil god of the North

It wouldn't surprise if OOTS Loki is also responsible for screwing over his other kids. Maybe he somehow tricked Jormungandr into biting its own tail (thus literally robbing it of a voice at the Godsmoot) and bound Fenrir with Gleipnir (limiting his activity in the Outer Planes).

[Excession]

Will goats work? That sounds like a job for goats (although they might finish everything else off as well).

Yes. I remember reading of people renting out goats to clear kudzu. Apparently goats tend to eat the kudzu first, so you leave them there until the weed is gone, then move them on before they eat everything else too. These people also sold goat meat and cheese, because getting paid twice is always a good plan.

[KorvinStarmast]

The kid is named for a comic strip. Come on, people. Rich is a comic artist.

OMFG Durkon's baby trying to Turn Undead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Call back to about strip 1a, right?

I'm totally going to try to get my 17 month old son to say "Tunn unn deh" now. Well done, my good an faithful servant. :smallsmile:

A good example of kudzu would be the cover art to R.E.M.'s Murmur.
No. The comic strip. But REM is OK.

So no one really thinks of the comic strip "Kudzu" then. That simplifies matters. Yep. Thanks for stealing my thunder. :smallbiggrin:


My first thought was that she named him Kudzu because kudzu kills trees.No. Comic strip. A couple of decades ago, it was syndicated in newspapers all over the place.

All of the above cleared up ...
Thank You Giant. (And the last panel was extra sweet in the funny bone). :smallbiggrin:

[Jasdoif]

Well, it's explicitly a statement that Loki grants his clerics Turn Undead because ewww.I don't think "break some skulls" is synonymous with "turn undead".

[Lord Raziere]

Oh so, Hilgya is just delusional and stupid then. Greaaaaaaat.

I mean, first she is delusional and stupid about the first husband, which she wanted to get away from, and now she is equally stupid about the guy to help take care of her child, even though the one she left seems not that bad compared to a guy who is a vampire and needs to be brought back to life to save the world.

I'm not feeling really sympathetic towards her. she is just hypocritical now. and I went back and checked, she was the one who ran away from HIM after he was just talking about how he feels about the situation and explaining why he wasn't ok with it. I mean really girl, he is an adventurer. you met him in a dungeon while he was on a big quest to fight a high level lich, AND from what I've been rereading, YOU WERE THE ONE COMING ONTO HIM! Then you left, didn't tell him sooner because y'know, you could've just paid a wizard to send you a message or something as soon you found out you were pregnant instead of trying to pray to Loki, and you knew that since he was adventurer he would be constantly traveling about, wouldn't be freely available to just go back to the same place to let him know, because y'know, adventurer stuff.

this situation is honestly entirely of her own making. you dug this hole Hilgya, your the one who took all those stupid risks, Durkon was just the guy who was trying to stick to the job given him to by his god and his people no matter how much he doesn't like it, and along you came along and was like, the first dwarf lass he seen in five years? like giving someone in the desert an oasis....

[The MunchKING]

Then you left, didn't tell him sooner because y'know, you could've just paid a wizard to send you a message or something as soon you found out you were pregnant instead of trying to pray to Loki,

Cause Clerics are well known for going around trying to subvert their god's will. :smallamused:

[Kish]

and I went back and checked, she was the one who ran away from HIM after he was just talking about how he feels about the situation and explaining why he wasn't ok with it.

Go back and check again? He explicitly told her to leave and confirmed that that was what he meant.

I'm also thoroughly uncomfortable with you saying "they both had consensual unprotected sex" is entirely the fault of one of them and with "attractive woman=inanimate consumable" analogies. I'm not particularly sympathetic to Hilgya, but keep arguing that she should be condemned with tactics like these, I'll get there.

[goodpeople25]

Probably didn't want her kid to end up becoming a Pokémon Professor.
*goodpeople25 used overthinking!
I don't think that would actually work, there are at least a couple professors named after other plants. (Ivy is from the anime, but Burnet even crossed over to S&M from her Dream Radar.)

[Draconi Redfir]

Oh so, Hilgya is just delusional and stupid then. Greaaaaaaat.

I mean, first she is delusional and stupid about the first husband, which she wanted to get away from, and now she is equally stupid about the guy to help take care of her child, even though the one she left seems not that bad compared to a guy who is a vampire and needs to be brought back to life to save the world.

I'm not feeling really sympathetic towards her. she is just hypocritical now. and I went back and checked, she was the one who ran away from HIM after he was just talking about how he feels about the situation and explaining why he wasn't ok with it. I mean really girl, he is an adventurer. you met him in a dungeon while he was on a big quest to fight a high level lich, AND from what I've been rereading, YOU WERE THE ONE COMING ONTO HIM! Then you left, didn't tell him sooner because y'know, you could've just paid a wizard to send you a message or something as soon you found out you were pregnant instead of trying to pray to Loki, and you knew that since he was adventurer he would be constantly traveling about, wouldn't be freely available to just go back to the same place to let him know, because y'know, adventurer stuff.

this situation is honestly entirely of her own making. you dug this hole Hilgya, your the one who took all those stupid risks, Durkon was just the guy who was trying to stick to the job given him to by his god and his people no matter how much he doesn't like it, and along you came along and was like, the first dwarf lass he seen in five years? like giving someone in the desert an oasis....

well too be fair, she's (most likely) evil. and probably had a long period of time between then and now. looots of time to convince herself that he was the one in the wrong, and that she wasn't guilty of any of it.

trust me, it happens. i have both been, and been the subject too, someone who has done that.

[Scowling Dragon]

This is still aggressively stupid. If the rigorous motion won't kill the child (Assuming that a single blow or unlucky trip doesn't):
Why, o WHY would you carry the child: IN THE FRONT. Making using weapons difficult, and making shielding the child difficult as well.

And yes, take the child into the danger zone not, out of it. Just pure brilliance.

[Doug Lampert]

I heard cows weren't thorough enough, and it needed goats.

We've got a field near here with cattle next to a field covered in kudzu.

It's easy to tell EXACTLY how far over the fence a cow can reach her head... Because that's where the kudzu STOPS.

There's a strip of grass near that fence on the kudzu side. Goats rip out roots, they may well kill kudzu faster than cattle, but cattle can keep kudzu from getting established quite well and will drive it back given half a chance.

Edited to add: Kudzu was deliberately introduced to the USA. It was supposed to help stabilize embankments and the like, which it does. This was a cure worse than the disease.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Well, if flaws and bad decisions lead to a character dying, then I'd have to say the odds of Hilgya coming out of this alive just got longer. Lots longer.

[Elkad]

This is still aggressively stupid. If the rigorous motion won't kill the child (Assuming that a single blow or unlucky trip doesn't):
Why, o WHY would you carry the child: IN THE FRONT. Making using weapons difficult, and making shielding the child difficult as well.

And yes, take the child into the danger zone not, out of it. Just pure brilliance.

Front&Center means you have direct eyesight and both hands to defend him.

[ReturnOfTheKing]

That last panel made me laugh harder than I've laughed in what feels like months! Thanks, Rich :smallbiggrin:

[Bob_McSurly]

Hilygia's comment in panel 5 makes me think that she doesn't have enough levels in knowledge (religion) to know how vampires work in this setting.

[PopeLinus1]

This issue of the Baby Sitters Club: Stacy makes a big mistake about gambling, and learns an important lesson. Meanwhile the rest of the club experiences a not-at-all government encoureged lesson about drugs, and all learn about responsibility, hug at the end and remind each other that they are their best freinds. They then begin braiding each other’s Hair
Next issue: Stacy learns that somepeople lock their windows, and that shattered glass hurts.

[3WhiteFox3]

well too be fair, she's (most likely) evil. and probably had a long period of time between then and now. looots of time to convince herself that he was the one in the wrong, and that she wasn't guilty of any of it.

trust me, it happens. i have both been, and been the subject too, someone who has done that.

I also think that she's also projecting somewhat, she presumably spends most of her time dealing with Chaotic people, so that's the kind of behavior she expects.

The Church of Loki also probably doesn't have many good things to say about the worshipers of Thor. So her beliefs would have been reinforced by an already negative bias.

[Jasdoif]

Hilygia's comment in panel 5 makes me think that she doesn't have enough levels in knowledge (religion) to know how vampires work in this setting.Exceedingly few people in the setting know how vampires work.

[eilandesq]

--I hope young Kudzu has improved evasion and some decent DEX save bonuses, or this will end badly;

--I have to agree with those who don't feel too sorry for Hilgya given that as a middle level cleric she had abundant resources for tracking down Durkon long ago, including Scrying and Commune if she's at least 9th level, and Greater Scrying and Wind Walk if she's at least 13th level. Durkon may have sent her away, but if she had wanted to track him down and make him aware of her condition and her anger, she had more than adequate means of doing so;

--can we just take the loud hint from The Giant that one of Loki's domains allows his clerics to turn undead and dispense with further discussion of the "clerics of evil gods can't turn undead!" issue?

[The MunchKING]

This is still aggressively stupid. If the rigorous motion won't kill the child (Assuming that a single blow or unlucky trip doesn't):
Why, o WHY would you carry the child: IN THE FRONT. Making using weapons difficult, and making shielding the child difficult as well.

And yes, take the child into the danger zone not, out of it. Just pure brilliance.

Abjurations! Nothing safer. :D


This issue of the Baby Sitters Club: Stacy makes a big mistake about gambling, and learns an important lesson.

If she really does have a flush, that's pretty good. If they aren't cheating that's a pretty likely to win hand. Not high enough I'D bet a baby on it, but I'm not a Loki cleric. :smalltongue:

[Algeh]

I've been finding myself reading this comic (and the previous one) through twice: once to see what's going on with the plot, and then once again just to see what the baby is doing while everyone else is doing plot stuff.

[3WhiteFox3]

--I hope young Kudzu has improved evasion and some decent DEX save bonuses, or this will end badly;

--I have to agree with those who don't feel too sorry for Hilgya given that as a middle level cleric she had abundant resources for tracking down Durkon long ago, including Scrying and Commune if she's at least 9th level, and Greater Scrying and Wind Walk if she's at least 13th level. Durkon may have sent her away, but if she had wanted to track him down and make him aware of her condition and her anger, she had more than adequate means of doing so;

--can we just take the loud hint from The Giant that one of Loki's domains allows his clerics to turn undead and dispense with further discussion of the "clerics of evil gods can't turn undead!" issue?

According to the Class and Level Geekery thread, Durkon is currently level 14 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?485983-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XIV-We-are-the-Geek-Pantheon).

[Aeliren]

Plot twist: "Durkon Thundershield" is to dwarves what "John Smith" is to humans.

[Bob_McSurly]

Exceedingly few people in the setting know how vampires work.

Oh. Well, thanks for the info.

[Jay R]

Plot twist: "Durkon Thundershield" is to dwarves what "John Smith" is to humans.

A lovely theory. Unfortunately, we already know that:

He really is the Durkon Thundershield she's looking for, and
At least one dwarf thinks that he is positively identified by his name. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1024.html)

[Deliverance]

Plot twist: "Durkon Thundershield" is to dwarves what "John Smith" is to humans.
You mean a name that while it might be in common use in some culturally affiliated areas of the world holding only a small portion of the world's total population of humans, is rare in the human population as a whole? I can see why you think they would be similar. :smallwink:

[Jasdoif]

You mean a name that while it might be in common use in some culturally affiliated areas of the world holding only a small portion of the world's total population of humans, is rare in the human population as a whole? I can see why you think they would be similar. :smallwink:Hey, the dwarven nation could easily be a culturally affiliated area of the world! :smalltongue:

[ManuelSacha]

Ugh.
She's irrationally vengeful, she's irrationally jealous, she's judgemental, she's stubborn to the point of endangering her own child, she jumps to conclusions, she makes up her own truths despite all evidence... and she likes "Kudzu".
Hylgia is one of those.
Suddenly, all my enthusiasm has faded. :smallyuk:

PS: Also? "Tunn unn deh! Tunn unn deh!" :smallbiggrin:

[Windscion]

Kudzu would make an awesome babe magnet. :smallbiggrin: I want to adopt him, and I'm a misanthropic bachelor. (I promise I'm not a Thor worshipper.)

[Hardcore]

I predict they get old Durkon killed and resurrected. Next he will want to marry Hilgya because of Duty and all that. Maybe they will be happy in the end.
(Of course she would need a divorce first. Should not be that hard with her proven lack fidelity and all.)

[a_flemish_guy]

you know, I almost forgot that she used to run with nale

I guess it takes one to tolerate one

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Clearly, the solution to "how do I protect my baby son" is to kill the baby and get a wizard to, in the crucial time just after death, reanimate the body and trap the soul in a gem, and then hide the zombie and gem in an undisclosed safe location until whatever you need to do has been done, and then get another wizard to release the soul and get a cleric to do the resurrection. It's just like hitting "pause" on life, so your children don't have to grow up or have any experiences without you.

[Bob_McSurly]

Clearly, the solution to "how do I protect my baby son" is to kill the baby and get a wizard to, in the crucial time just after death, reanimate the body and trap the soul in a gem, and then hide the zombie and gem in an undisclosed safe location until whatever you need to do has been done, and then get another wizard to release the soul and get a cleric to do the resurrection. It's just like hitting "pause" on life, so your children don't have to grow up or have any experiences without you.
But...but... Loki teaches us that lo, zombies are totally icky.

[8BitNinja]

Well, I guess the Church of Loki has the same childcare policies as your average babysitting center. I see nothing to worry about.

[Syldar]

Soooo, I see that last panel and all I can think is, what's the over under on Belkar having impregnated Jenny with a bouncing baby quarterling?

Doubt it, since Jenny’s at the table and isn’t the one betting the kid.

[goodpeople25]

Doubt it, since Jenny’s at the table and isn’t the one betting the kid.
Well yeah it's very doubtful for numerous reasons, the scenario it brings to my mind (you leave your kid with a cleric and she shows up at the specific poker game you're attending and then proceeds to add your baby to the pot) is absurd enough that it kinda matches/adds to the scene.

[Dagny]

So her M.O. is to strap her baby to her chest and carry it into battle? I guess she must have come from a dwarf fortress.

[Ruck]

It may be completely unrelated, but the name 'Kudzu' shows up on TVTropes as a Kudzu Plot: a plot with many dangling plot threads that makes the story needlessly complicated. Maybe it's another of The Giant's self-deprecating jokes?
Ha, that's a neat observation.


I was wondering if no one else knew of that strip.

I've read it, but I have no recollection of it. Didn't leave much impression on me.


The kid is named for a comic strip. Come on, people. Rich is a comic artist.
Call back to about strip 1a, right?
Well done, my good an faithful servant. :smallsmile:
No. The comic strip. But REM is OK.
Yep. Thanks for stealing my thunder. :smallbiggrin:

No. Comic strip. A couple of decades ago, it was syndicated in newspapers all over the place.

All of the above cleared up ...
Thank You Giant. (And the last panel was extra sweet in the funny bone). :smallbiggrin:

Just because you insist your interpretation is the only correct one doesn't make it so.

[The MunchKING]

So her M.O. is to strap her baby to her chest and carry it into battle? I guess she must have come from a dwarf fortress.

People have been making that joke for the last two strips. :smallwink:

[TheNecrocomicon]

Soooo, I see that last panel and all I can think is, what's the over under on Belkar having impregnated Jenny with a bouncing baby quarterling?


Doubt it, since Jenny’s at the table and isn’t the one betting the kid.


Well yeah it's very doubtful for numerous reasons, the scenario it brings to my mind (you leave your kid with a cleric and she shows up at the specific poker game you're attending and then proceeds to add your baby to the pot) is absurd enough that it kinda matches/adds to the scene.

Who knows, maybe Jenny's just having the babysitter over for a poker game. Or the baby has been bet around the table a few times already.

To be fair, assuming that is Jenny at the table somewhere in or near the Guild, the baby does have her skin tone, much as little Kudzu follows after Durkon's somewhat darker complexion.

----------

Also, a further theory crosses my mind that Hilgya might go all Leeroy Jenkins with rage at the chance to kill Durkon, find herself way over her head against a high-level vampire, and get killed in battle before the Order is able to take down Lurkon. Then when Lurkon has been destroyed and Durkon is resurrected, Minrah could become closer with Durkon in the process (since she already knows Durkon's mother and family (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1096.html)) and end up as Kudzu's stepmom.

[Manty5]

I'm totally going to try to get my 17 month old son to say "Tunn unn deh" now.

That's going to be awkward when he says that to grandma.

[Scowling Dragon]

Front&Center means you have direct eyesight and both hands to defend him.

And I guess removing a windscreen from a car allows you a more unobstructed look at your surroundings. :smallannoyed:

This is aggressively MORONIC. Even with "Abjuration" we KNOW what D&D magic can do. Like ignoring direct levels and the like, it can't save a baby with a AC of like....8 at the best of times with an HP of 1.
A single AOE, Sneak Attack (As in not the abiltity), trip success, or just a TOUCH to the stomache.
And that baby is dead, and probably a vampire.

This is utterly stupid.

[Ruck]

Soooo, I see that last panel and all I can think is, what's the over under on Belkar having impregnated Jenny with a bouncing baby quarterling?

Whatever it is, I'll take the under.


Ugh.
She's irrationally vengeful, she's irrationally jealous, she's judgemental, she's stubborn to the point of endangering her own child, she jumps to conclusions, she makes up her own truths despite all evidence... and she likes "Kudzu".
Hylgia is one of those.
Suddenly, all my enthusiasm has faded. :smallyuk:

PS: Also? "Tunn unn deh! Tunn unn deh!" :smallbiggrin:
I don't know what you mean by "one of those." I don't see anything that says she's irrationally vengeful. Mistaken about Durkon's character, yeah, but I think her vengefulness is completely rational.

Also, why are so many people assuming she's endangering her child when she's provided a perfectly reasonable explanation that Kudzu is safest with her? It might not be exactly true-- it's obviously rooted in some distrust of Clerics of Thor-- but there's no reason to think it's not true that she can adequately ward the baby against harm. (I especially don't get the arguments using physics, considering she says she's going to use her abjurations to protect the kid.)

[Manty5]

Mistaken about Durkon's character, yeah, but I think her vengefulness is completely rational.

Ah, so having sex with someone without telling him you're married and becoming murderously vengeful because you got knocked up with a kid he can't acknowledge because you haven't bothered to tell him about it is "completely rational".



I don't know what you mean by "one of those."

Given the above, I think you know exactly what he meant.

[Ironsmith]

And I guess removing a windscreen from a car allows you a more unobstructed look at your surroundings. :smallannoyed:

This is aggressively MORONIC. Even with "Abjuration" we KNOW what D&D magic can do. Like ignoring direct levels and the like, it can't save a baby with a AC of like....8 at the best of times with an HP of 1.
A single AOE, Sneak Attack (As in not the abiltity), trip success, or just a TOUCH to the stomache.
And that baby is dead, and probably a vampire.

This is utterly stupid.

Hilgya Firehelm never did strike me as a particularly responsible woman. It's likely she's very attached to the baby and not willing to let him out of her sight (and especially not into the arms of either A) the priests of a rival deity or B) the local vampire population)... but while maternal love is a strong force, it doesn't suddenly bestow good judgement where there was none to be found before.

Plus, this isn't Hilgya's first romp in wildly misinterpreting people's actions where she's concerned. Recall that she had a very low opinion of her husband, in spite of the fact that he was very loving (from what three or four panels of him we've seen), simply because he limited her freedoms by existing. If Durkon hadn't knocked her up (here meaning if their romp in Dorukan's dungeons hadn't gotten her pregnant), she probably wouldn't have thought too much more of that encounter.

[Luccan]

Zero, since the baby would be a three-fourthling. :smalltongue:


Ah, but the baby would be half-halfling and thus, a quarterling.

[Ruck]

Ah, so having sex with someone without telling him you're married and becoming murderously vengeful because you got knocked up with a kid he can't acknowledge because you haven't bothered to tell him about it is "completely rational".
Your inability to put yourself in someone else's shoes enough to understand their rationale aside, yes. It doesn't make her less evil, and she's obviously got other personality characteristics I'd consider a negative, but the throughline of "angry at the man who knocked her up then sent her away" seems pretty obvious to me.


Given the above, I think you know exactly what he meant.
Now that I remember that you were the person posting about "Virtue signaling" and calling "stacking virtue points" a "perfectly logical explanation" for people's posts, I think I know exactly what you mean, anyway, and I also know that it means I have no interest in talking to you about logic, rationale, or character motivations. (Particularly those of women, evidently.)


Here's my take on Loki and the undead (I still believe both Loki and Hilgya are Chaotic Evil):

-Loki deliberately robs Hel out of souls and ticks her off
-as the Northern goddess of undeath, Hel manages to bar Loki from drawing from the Plane of Negative Energy
-instead of trying to contest that, Loki pulls strings to qualify as a Positive Energy channeling deity
-this now makes Loki an incredibly appealing evil deity, since his clerics are all great healers
-every evil adventuring party wants a cleric of Loki
-various evil groups like the Thieves' Guild sponsor the Church of Loki for cheaper, no-questions-asked healing
-the Church of Loki is less likely to be sought out by paladins and do-gooders, since it plays a vital role in keeping people alive regardless of alignment and is better than the alternative of letting other evil churches gain a foothold in communities like Greysky City
-all of this + removing Hel's influence on the world lets him maintain his status as the most powerful Evil god of the North

It wouldn't surprise if OOTS Loki is also responsible for screwing over his other kids. Maybe he somehow tricked Jormungandr into biting its own tail (thus literally robbing it of a voice at the Godsmoot) and bound Fenrir with Gleipnir (limiting his activity in the Outer Planes).

This actually makes a lot of sense to me.

[Manty5]

Now that I remember that you were the person posting about "Virtue signaling" and calling "stacking virtue points" a "perfectly logical explanation" for people's posts, I think I know exactly what you mean, anyway, and I also know that it means I have no interest in talking to you about logic, rationale, or character motivations. (Particularly those of women, evidently.).

Perhaps you should be more careful about breaking forum rules about dragging previous threads into this one. I know I managed to resist the impulse.


I also know that it means I have no interest in talking to you about logic, rationale, or character motivations. (Particularly those of women, evidently.)

I share the sentiment about discussing female character motivations with a person who's taking Hilgya's side immediately after she clearly demonstrated the crazy. We don't need a person making post after post trying to prove how "enlightened" he is.

[Laurana]

Wait a mo... is that Belkar's son?!?:smallconfused:

Brilliant strip!:smallbiggrin::smallcool:

[Sarbos]

So no one really thinks of the comic strip "Kudzu" then. That simplifies matters.

I thought of "Kid uf Durkon Zundershield" :smallsmile:

[goodpeople25]

And I guess removing a windscreen from a car allows you a more unobstructed look at your surroundings. :smallannoyed:

This is aggressively MORONIC. Even with "Abjuration" we KNOW what D&D magic can do. Like ignoring direct levels and the like, it can't save a baby with a AC of like....8 at the best of times with an HP of 1.
A single AOE, Sneak Attack (As in not the abiltity), trip success, or just a TOUCH to the stomache.
And that baby is dead, and probably a vampire.

This is utterly stupid.
It's not a good call obviously but why wouldn't abjuration effects be able to protect the child? (The effects themselves in a best case scenario, like if she predicted the right effects to use or that saving throws would mostly/all fail)

Also trip? Would that be to make Hilgya a better target, or are we going for the squishing baby route?

[PrexotGoldenPi]

-as the Northern goddess of undeath, Hel manages to bar Loki from drawing from the Plane of Negative Energy
-instead of trying to contest that, Loki pulls strings to qualify as a Positive Energy channeling deity
-this now makes Loki an incredibly appealing evil deity, since his clerics are all great healers


There's one small problem with that. In OOTS #603, the cleric of Loki says "I was on temple duty. I've got healing, mostly." If all clerics were Positive Energy channeling and could spontaneously cast healing spells, then why would clerics on temple duty prepare healing?

[Ironsmith]

There's one small problem with that. In OOTS #603, the cleric of Loki says "I was on temple duty. I've got healing, mostly." If all clerics were Positive Energy channeling and could spontaneously cast healing spells, then why would clerics on temple duty prepare healing?

Even positive-energy clerics still have to burn spells to fuel the cure and turn undead abilities. Maybe he was just the guy who agreed to give up that day's Flame Strikes? Greysky City isn't exactly the safest place in the world, so having the rest of the church ready for combat or churchwide evacuation would be a relatively smart move...

[Laurana]

Probably didn't want her kid to end up becoming a Pokémon Professor.

Lol! Good one.

[Luccan]

There's one small problem with that. In OOTS #603, the cleric of Loki says "I was on temple duty. I've got healing, mostly." If all clerics were Positive Energy channeling and could spontaneously cast healing spells, then why would clerics on temple duty prepare healing?

Well, depends on if he means healing as in "exclusively cure wounds spells" or healing as in things like remove disease.

[goodpeople25]

There's one small problem with that. In OOTS #603, the cleric of Loki says "I was on temple duty. I've got healing, mostly." If all clerics were Positive Energy channeling and could spontaneously cast healing spells, then why would clerics on temple duty prepare healing?
1 Only the "cure" line are spontaneous,and healing doesn't necessarily mean just healing hit points. (Or even the healing sub-school' I could see the remove curse spell he casts described as healing)

2 Playing to the last panel of this strip, maybe he was planning to go to a poker game that day and had alot of his slots filled with spells for that purpose and having mostly healing was just true from the point of view that he spontaneously casts and those spells weren't the type Haley was asking about.

3 Just a plain old lie to keep in practice or something.

[SilverCacaobean]

Oh man... I was hoping she'd be a bit more... uh... sane. Seems like the giant is sticking with her early characterization.

He does seem to have an unfortunate tendency of featuring women characters with very very bad judgement (Miko, Celia, Andi) who make very bad decisions that move the plot and that also could have easily been avoided. I hope this isn't where this is headed. Roy's face in the penultimate panel doesn't promise that this is going to go smoothly, though. He looks pretty pissed.

On the other hand, I'm liking Minrah more and more. I thought she was pretty unremarkable at first, but she's growing on me like kudzu (fast :P).

I'm wondering if Greg will try to take Hilgya to his side, either by pretending to be a changed Durkon and telling her things that appeal to her, or by telling her that he can have Durkon's soul trapped forever...

[Michaeler]

Am I the only one thinking she might well hate Kudzu? Unwanted pregnancy can have that effect, she's carrying him into danger and presumably she named him after an aggressively invasive plant while he was growing inside her.

[Ironsmith]

Am I the only one thinking she might well hate Kudzu? Unwanted pregnancy can have that effect, she's carrying him into danger and presumably she named him after an aggressively invasive plant while he was growing inside her.

She hated her otherwise-okay husband just because he was married to her, which tied her down... a baby would have much the same effect. It's an interesting theory, at any rate.

[Lethologica]

I don't think "break some skulls" is synonymous with "turn undead".
"Hates undead" is, though. Certainly far more so than it is a synonym for "is not Evil."


Ah, but the baby would be half-halfling and thus, a quarterling.
Half the baby would be halfling, but I view the other half as the full load. Hence, three-fourths. You are free to disagree, of course.

[Kardwill]

maybe that's what turned him off of them. He doth KNOW that lo they are gross, icky things.

Or maybe he's not really turned off by them, but simply issued that command because he wants to mess with his daughter. First, convince Hel to only have undead clerics, then order his own clerics to destroy them on sight. And lie to his priesthood about the real reason, too, because Loki.
It would fit his "magnificient bastard" MO.


On another note, little Kudzu is adorable. :)

[Mulisa]

The cleric just has to be a Dwarf Fortress reference. In that game it is not unknown for Dwarven mothers to charge into battle carrying their babies.

[Fyraltari]

Roy's face in the penultimate panel doesn't promise that this is going to go smoothly, though. He looks pretty pissed.

Agreed, for some reason (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html) I think Roy will not look kindly to a parent that needlessly endangers her child.

[Centaur]

Half the baby would be halfling, but I view the other half as the full load. Hence, three-fourths. You are free to disagree, of course.

In Rusty and Co, a halfling refers to humans using the term “twiceling”, reminding that the term is relative to the speaker.

So yes, a hypothetical kid of Belkar and Jenny would be* a three-quarterling to her, and a one-and-a-halfling to him. The kid’s terms for his/her parent’s races would be even weirder.

* when fully grown, assuming the height is averaged and not just a dominant/recessive gene thing.

[Lkctgo]

Is.... is that baby at the last panel meant to be Belkar's kid.

It seems half black and they specifically showed that bard girl Jenny he hooked up with.

The funniest thing about that (if it's really his kid) is that she has apparently already lost little Belkie to the other poker player who's apparently calling with the baby.

[unbeliever536]

Oh man... I was hoping she'd be a bit more... uh... sane. Seems like the giant is sticking with her early characterization.

He does seem to have an unfortunate tendency of featuring women characters with very very bad judgement (Miko, Celia, Andi) who make very bad decisions that move the plot and that also could have easily been avoided. I hope this isn't where this is headed. Roy's face in the penultimate panel doesn't promise that this is going to go smoothly, though. He looks pretty pissed.

On the other hand, I'm liking Minrah more and more. I thought she was pretty unremarkable at first, but she's growing on me like kudzu (fast :P).

I'm wondering if Greg will try to take Hilgya to his side, either by pretending to be a changed Durkon and telling her things that appeal to her, or by telling her that he can have Durkon's soul trapped forever...

Miko, Celia, and Andi stand alongside such sensible male characters as Nale, Elan, Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0430.html), and Belkar, to name a few.

[Kardwill]

The funniest thing about that (if it's really his kid) is that she has apparently already lost little Belkie to the other poker player who's apparently calling with the baby.

I think said poker player is the kid's babysitter. Since she is a Loki cleric bringing (and betting) a child to poker night, and the gag was about Loki's clerics being horrendous at babysitting...
Doubt he's Jenny's kid, as there would be no reason to give it to a babysitter if both BS and mom go to the same poker game anyway.

[Fyraltari]

Is.... is that baby at the last panel meant to be Belkar's kid.

It seems half black and they specifically showed that bard girl Jenny he hooked up with.

The funniest thing about that (if it's really his kid) is that she has apparently already lost little Belkie to the other poker player who's apparently calling with the baby.

I don't think so, the joke was about on-site child care whoch means that baby's parent(s) aren't available to look after it. Jenny and Hank areprobably here for the same reason the window showing the rain is here : visually reminding her that the Thieves' Guild and the Church of Loki are partners hence why Haley knows this.

Edit: And showing them in the new art style a bit.

[Themrys]

Gotta love how delusional Hilgya is being in regards to the "unscrupulous" Durkon. Although given how busted clerics are she probably is right that Kudzu is safest sharing a square with her.

Delusional? She states facts.
He did, in fact, cast her aside after he had his fun, and left her to raise the child he had impregnated her with alone.

That's what he did, and you cannot argue it away, much as you'd like to.

Her judgement of him is therefore totally justified. Remember that this is everything she knows about him, that he is the sort of man who would have unprotected sex with a woman and then tell her to go back to her husband, knowing full well that the baby won't have the husband's skin colour, even.

Her assuming that he would therefore willingly become a vampire is a bit exaggerated, sure, but she's understandably bitter about the whole thing.

Her assumption that he would treat other women the same as he treated her is, however, quite justified.

Let's be realistic, she has no proof at all that his talk of duty and **** wasn't just a lame excuse on his side for not taking responsibility.


Edit: And the assumption that Hilgya hates little Kudzu is utterly idiotic. Why would she be carrying around a child she hates? Especially those of you who believe she is completely evil should have realized that yes, babies can be killed, ... assuming you live in a country with a misogynist government that won't let you have an abortion. An abortion being the preferable option that she would have taken FIRST if she didn't want a child by Durkon.
And even if you, more reasonably, assume that she would not kill a baby: it was stated that the Church of Loki does provide (bad) childcare, and that would have been the perfect way to rid herself of him without even committing a crime.

[Finagle]

Wow, Hilgaya totally changed her personality. She's a complete bitch now. Plus she lacks empathy, the ability to put herself in other people's shoes. She can't understand why Durkon left her even though it was blatantly obvious. She might not agree with honor culture but damn she was raised in it and should at the very least understand it, if only to corrupt more dwarves. She's a cleric of Loki the Deceiver and she calls him unscrupulous. She also can't figure out that the other dwarf chick might not be Durkon's girlfriend. Projecting her own emotions on other people all over the place.

She's also willing to endanger the life of her child just so she can satisfy her emotional needs. Wow, Hilgaya is a real piece of work. What a terrible person. I would say I'm looking forward to her coming to a bad end, but then Durkon's child would be orphaned, and having a single mother is bad enough already for kids. Well, I say it's about time we had an actual evil cleric instead of fun-n-games Malack. Let's get some capital E evil in the strip. Too many evil characters are nice people, Redcloak with his 'evil but for a good cause' crap, Tarquin with his 'affably evil' and Belkar with his 'funny sociopath' act.

[KorvinStarmast]

Well, I say it's about time we had an actual evil cleric instead of fun-n-games Malack. Let's get some capital E evil in the strip. Too many evil characters are nice people, Redcloak with his 'evil but for a good cause' crap, Tarquin with his 'affably evil' and Belkar with his 'funny sociopath' act. Interesting take.
I think she's more chaotic than evil. Maybe "chaotic angry" for pseudo-alignment.

Also, about Loki's clerics turning undead, and Loki's scriptures addressing undead in unfavorable terms:

His daughter Hel seems to be good with undead. Loki and Hel seem to have a bad relationship.
Is this Loki/Hel tension an allusion to rebellious children and the whole "Goth" thing that an unfortunate number of teenagers went through a few decades ago (and I guess some still do?) Rich alluded to that as a phase Haley went through as a teen in an early strip regarding the rebellious goblin teenagers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html).

@Ruck: my estimation on "why Kudzu" is informed by the homages paid by comic artists to one another. (Scott Kurtz was (for example) very fond of Berk Breathed's Bloom County strip, and wrote up some blog posts about that). I am pretty sure that's the way to bet, though the "grows fast as a weed" is a reference to how quick kids grow, or certainly was one when I was in my youth. Perhaps it's a double reference.

[hamishspence]

There's one small problem with that. In OOTS #603, the cleric of Loki says "I was on temple duty. I've got healing, mostly." If all clerics were Positive Energy channeling and could spontaneously cast healing spells, then why would clerics on temple duty prepare healing?

Or maybe it's

"All clerics of Loki may (rather than must) choose the Turn Undead option rather than Rebuke Undead, when taking their first level of Cleric, regardless of alignment"

In general, this does support the notion that Hilgya, Loki, or both are Evil, and that there is a special exception to the standard rules on Turn/Rebuke, here.

Because, if both were some kind of Neutral, there would be no need to specify that Loki has a special "eww gross" attitude to undead.

[Themrys]

Wow, Hilgaya totally changed her personality. She's a complete bitch now.

Wait what? Why does this forum automatically censor the colloquial word for feces, but lets misogynist slurs stand? Where is the logic there?

[Alsadius]

Wow. Hilgya is deeply stupid, or possibly just a total narcissist. No wonder she hung out with Nale.

(I know this isn't news, but I'd forgotten how bad she was)

[hroþila]

Wow, Hilgaya totally changed her personality. She's a complete bitch now. Plus she lacks empathy, the ability to put herself in other people's shoes. She can't understand why Durkon left her even though it was blatantly obvious. She might not agree with honor culture but damn she was raised in it and should at the very least understand it, if only to corrupt more dwarves. She's a cleric of Loki the Deceiver and she calls him unscrupulous. She also can't figure out that the other dwarf chick might not be Durkon's girlfriend. Projecting her own emotions on other people all over the place.

She's also willing to endanger the life of her child just so she can satisfy her emotional needs. Wow, Hilgaya is a real piece of work. What a terrible person. I would say I'm looking forward to her coming to a bad end, but then Durkon's child would be orphaned, and having a single mother is bad enough already for kids. Well, I say it's about time we had an actual evil cleric instead of fun-n-games Malack. Let's get some capital E evil in the strip. Too many evil characters are nice people, Redcloak with his 'evil but for a good cause' crap, Tarquin with his 'affably evil' and Belkar with his 'funny sociopath' act.
I'm confused by the notion that "being a jerk" is capital-E Evil, but "planning slaughter of genocidal proportions while serving tea to his guests" is not worthy of capitalization.

Anyway, I don't think what we see of Hilgya in this strip is inconsistent with what we had already seen of her. We didn't see much, and what we saw could be interpreted in different ways.

Delusional? She states facts.
He did, in fact, cast her aside after he had his fun, and left her to raise the child he had impregnated her with alone.

That's what he did, and you cannot argue it away, much as you'd like to.

Her judgement of him is therefore totally justified. Remember that this is everything she knows about him, that he is the sort of man who would have unprotected sex with a woman and then tell her to go back to her husband, knowing full well that the baby won't have the husband's skin colour, even.

Missing in your analysis: the fact that Hilgya hid potentially very important information from Durkon (namely, that she was married) when she hit on him. Of course many people, particularly Lawful dwarves, would consider it a deal-breaker. Spinning Durkon's reaction as "he tossed her aside after he had his fun" is delusional, and completely in line with Hilgya's characterization.

[Giscard76]

As a new dad I compleatly relate to "Now come on. if we're going, lets go. I just fed him and I want to get this done before he get hungry again." Just change the Pronoun and it could be me with my daughter on a game day.

[Fyraltari]

Wait what? Why does this forum automatically censor the colloquial word for feces, but lets misogynist slurs stand? Where is the logic there?

From the forum rules :

Excessive Use of Profanity
Most profanity is censored by our filter, though a few mild terms (generally those that appear in the comic) and words that have both a benign meaning and a profane or offensive one, are not.

"Bitch" appears in the comic and has a benign meaning.

[Finagle]

Anyway, I don't think what we see of Hilgya in this strip is inconsistent with what we had already seen of her.

She came across as quite affable and cute in her first appearance. Even when she was portrayed as trying to murder her husband. She's lacking that now, bigtime.


lets misogynist slurs stand? Where is the logic there?

LOL triggered.

[hroþila]

She came across as quite affable and cute in her first appearance. Even when she was portrayed as trying to murder her husband. She's lacking that now, bigtime.
People get angry, Steven.

[rakkoon]

Go, Hilgya go!

She's had a long time to get angry about the dwarf that left her so I look forward to their reunion.
Great work, Giant!

[Dr.Zero]

I find this strip hilarious, from Hilgya portraying Durkon as some sorf of a Casanova, to the little Kudzu turning undead (and Belkar is always funny).

Yes, Hilgya seems a bit more bitter than the last time, where she made her debut with the: "Say hello to the nice guys" and "I'm sorry about this".
One could argue that no one tried to say her what to do, last time, as Roy has tried to do now
But really someone did say her what to do: Durkon. And when Durkon said her what to do, she didn't reply flipping him, but running away crying.

I guess raising a child on her own and at the same time leveling up turning undead made her develop a stronger personality.

[Michaeler]

Edit: And the assumption that Hilgya hates little Kudzu is utterly idiotic. Why would she be carrying around a child she hates?

I really don't see how you expect anyone to be able to answer that question without derailing the thread into discussing actual child abuse.

Coupled with the needlessly inflammatory tone, I'll leave your question unanswered. Just wanted you to know why.

[Alcore]

I finally know the name of the plant my mother calls 'The Pod People Plant'. Those strange southerners just let the things take over :smallannoyed:


Good thing i am back in the chilly embrace of the north :smallcool:

[Riftwolf]

At first I thought 'wow Hilgya's gotten unlikeably bitter, Roy's gonna take her to task if she goes on like that', but then I thought 'she's had over a year of stewing on this. She's had a year to skew the facts, sharpen the axe, cast blame onto the absent father. And even if her view of Durkon doesn't add up with the information she had at the time, she wouldn't be the first person to misread into an argument and pick out the info which supports her demonisation while forgetting or ignoring the info which runs against that.'

Still think Roy's gonna take her to task, though.

[Themrys]

From the forum rules :

"Bitch" appears in the comic and has a benign meaning.

It does not appear in the comic with a benign meaning, though, it appears there as misogynist slur. And its only de-facto use is as misogynist slur. People on the forums don't talk about female dogs that often.

And while I am too lazy to search for it, I do think the word sh*t appears in the comic, too, (as I would be surprised if someone managed to write an entire webcomic without it) and it is really not offensive to anyone.

[Kish]

--I hope young Kudzu has improved evasion and some decent DEX save bonuses, or this will end badly;

Kudzu, like all pre-4ed characters, does not have a DEX save and thus no bonuses to it.

[Fyraltari]

It does not appear in the comic with a benign meaning, though, it appears there as misogynist slur.

And while I am too lazy to search for it, I do think the word sh*t appears in the comic, too, (as I would be surprised if someone managed to write an entire webcomic without it) and it is really not offensive to anyone.
So what? It appears in the comic so censoring it in the forum would not make sense. It has a benign meaning so censoring it could theoritically hinder polite discussion.
I'm against censoring swear words except in places when you expect to find children but these rules seem coherent and reasonnable to me.

Best I could find was "shi-" moments before Yokyok death.
People tend to go for "crap" or stunned silence in this comic.

EDIT: Oh and it is also used against males in the comic so the mysoginistic part of "it appears there as misogynist slur" is debatable.

[Themrys]

I really don't see how you expect anyone to be able to answer that question without derailing the thread into discussing actual child abuse.

Coupled with the needlessly inflammatory tone, I'll leave your question unanswered. Just wanted you to know why.

If you don't want to talk about child abuse, then you shouldn't have brought up such a ridiculous idea, because it is clearly utterly nonsensical and you know it. If you can only defend your speculations by talking about things you don't want to talk about then you should not have brought it up, plain and simple.

Trying to pretend that I am the unreasonable one here will not help you, it is plain for all to see that all those nonsensical attempts to revile Hilgya are motivated by deepseated misogyny.


Edit: And it shows how very misogynist many people here are that you are so very, very keen and willing to jump to assumptions of child abuse when a high-level cleric in a D&D based comic says that her child is safest if staying with her, but happily, willingly, and passionately deny that forcing a woman into marriage means to want her raped, and that telling a woman to return to a forced marriage is telling her to get raped again and again, and again.

You apply real world logics when it suits you (i.e. when a high level cleric wants to keep her child with her rather than leaving it among strangers) but ferociously deny them when they would make your beloved Durkon look bad.

You willingly, happily believe that Hilgya, a woman who FAILED to murder ONE husband she was FORCED to marry, would mistreat her child, when Tarquin, a multiple murderer of wives he himself had chosen, is at the very least implied to not have mistreated his son (beyond raising him to be evil).

Your misogyny is showing.

[hamishspence]

So what? It appears in the comic so censoring it in the forum would not make sense.

For Erfworld, at least, The Giant pointed out that yes, a word appears in that comic (hosted here) that isn't allowed on the forum, and no, it being filtered on the forum, is not going to change.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=6143096&postcount=13

Presumably, the same would apply to the very occasional OOTS swear that would be filtered.

[Dr.Zero]

And its only de-facto use is as misogynist slur. People on the forums don't talk about female dogs that often.


Not going to argue about the automatic censorship, only pointing out that the "benign" meaning is not limited to the female dogs, but it includes slang where "son of a bitch" is used as equivalent of "crazily heroic/badass". As "The son of a bitch did it!" (for example, in Independence Day, when the drunk dude destroys one of the motherships, as far as I can remember about the english version).

[KorvinStarmast]

And even if her view of Durkon doesn't add up with the information she had at the time, she wouldn't be the first person to misread into an argument and pick out the info which supports her demonisation while forgetting or ignoring the info which runs against that.' I guess she'd fit in at the GiTP forum, would she not? :smallbiggrin:

Hilgya is deeply stupidNo.

or possibly just a total narcissist. No wonder she hung out with Nale.
Yes. A general impression conveyed in the few strips that she's been in is self centered. (See also Belkar, Captain of the schooner Self Centered ... ). She's not had all that much screen time, and her initial few strips demonstrated that she has the capacity to be nice to people, and even sweet.

Maybe we can allow for this revolutionary concept: she is drawn in two dimensions, but Rich has put some thought into her situation and character, and she's a bit more three dimensional than is being allowed for so far during the discussions centered on her return to the screen.

If her general outlook on life is self centered and a bit chaotic, and maybe even impulsive, then her various reactions to how life's consequences turn out seem to be consistent.

As to her choice to keep Kudzu with her: Hilgya isn't the first woman ever to tell people "don't tell me how to take care of my child." Whether her judgment is sound or not is a different matter, but the profound connection between mother and child could easily inform her very protective point of view. (Unlike RL mothers, she has magical spells to assist her in protecting her child). Just because she's mad at Durkon does not mean that she takes it out on her child.

If you don't want to talk about child abuse, then you shouldn't have brought up such a ridiculous idea, because it is clearly utterly nonsensical and you know it. If you can only defend your speculations by talking about things you don't want to talk about then you should not have brought it up, plain and simple. Tone sometimes comes across, even in text based discourse. Belligerent tone does not invite people to engage. (I have had that pointed out to me a few times on the 5e forum when my tone carried a hard edge).

... it is plain for all to see that all those nonsensical attempts to revile Hilgya are motivated by deepseated misogyny. Mind reading over the internet is not generally a credible form of discourse. Your distaste for how bitch was used in that post is understood. I personally don't think it was necessary.

[SlashDash]

Why do people keep saying she could have found a wizard to cast sending and contact him?

Isn't that a clerical spell?
Durkon had it (Elan contacting Julio)
The Cleric of Loki had it (Contacting Durkon when the party was split)


So Hilga could have done it if she wanted to. Durkon wasn't under the Cloister spell.





Also, I'm guessing that the panel with the baby in the thieves guild is a flashback or something? It seems like it's being implied that's something Haley saw in her past. So I doubt that's Belkar junior.

[unbeliever536]

Also, I'm guessing that the panel with the baby in the thieves guild is a flashback or something? It seems like it's being implied that's something Haley saw in her past. So I doubt that's Belkar junior.

Or it's a current example of behavior she knows is typical.

[Kish]

Hilgya's understanding of other people's motivations is as keen as ever, I see.

I wonder how long it took her to decide what Durkon had said to her was just an excuse.

[KorvinStarmast]

I wonder how long it took her to decide what Durkon had said to her was just an excuse. If we are setting up a betting pool, I'll suggest either sometime in the second trimester, or during the first bout of morning sickness. :smalleek:

[Kish]

Looking at this strictly in terms of what it says about Hilgya without any real-world assumptions, it seems like, here and with her forced marriage to Ivan, she starts off with legitimate reasons to be upset (in the last discussion thread someone summed up the Durkon/Hilgya confrontation as "it looks like he's about to object to her trying to murder Ivan, but instead he responds to Hilgya's Chaotic Crazy with Lawful Crazy," which sounds about right to me), but instead of sitting down and figuring out what those reasons to be upset are and who it makes sense to blame, she decides the person in closest proximity is gratuitously evil and stops thinking about it.

[KorvinStarmast]

she decides the person in closest proximity is gratuitously evil and stops thinking about it. Are you referring to Minrah, Roy, or Durkon?

[Fyraltari]

And the assumption that Hilgya hates little Kudzu is utterly idiotic. Why would she be carrying around a child she hates?I really don't see how you expect anyone to be able to answer that question without derailing the thread into discussing actual child abuse.If you don't want to talk about child abuse, then you shouldn't have brought up such a ridiculous idea, because it is clearly utterly nonsensical and you know it. If you can only defend your speculations by talking about things you don't want to talk about then you should not have brought it up, plain and simple.
Oh boy. You do realize that both real life and fiction are ripe with cases of child abuse where the parent still carry the child around? And that any discussion about a mother hating her baby will necessarily involve discussing child abuse by its very nature and that might not be allowed uder forum rules or be completely off-topic since no-one even speculated that Hilgya had harmed her son even once yet? There are just people commenting on the fact that bringing a toddler into battle might not be the safest route.


Trying to pretend that I am the unreasonable one here will not help you, it is plain for all to see that all those nonsensical attempts to revile Hilgya are motivated by deepseated misogyny.
Hey could you teach me the art of divining someone's motivations and intentions from three lines of text without knowing any thing about their origins, political, religious and social beliefs or personnal history? That looks useful as far as superpowers go.


Edit: And it shows how very misogynist many people here are that you are so very, very keen and willing to jump to assumptions of child abuse when a high-level cleric in a D&D based comic says that her child is safest if staying with her, but happily, willingly, and passionately deny that forcing a woman into marriage means to want her raped, and that telling a woman to return to a forced marriage is telling her to get raped again and again, and again.
So are we going to go there every single comic featuring Hilgya now.
*Sighs*



You apply real world logics when it suits you (i.e. when a high level cleric wants to keep her child with her rather than leaving it among strangers) but ferociously deny them when they would make your beloved Durkon look bad.
My knowledge of english idioms is failing me, what was it again that the pot called the kettle?


You willingly, happily believe that Hilgya, a woman who FAILED to murder ONE husband she was FORCED to marry, would mistreat her child, when Tarquin, a multiple murderer of wives he himself had chosen, is at the very least implied to not have mistreated his son (beyond raising him to be evil).
Oh (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0820.html), yeah (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0820.html), what a (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0929.html) loving father (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0934.html).
Add to that the fact that Nale was tutored by Malack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0894.html) who believes that everyone should be someone else's slave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0875.html) and as result had wanted to kill him since he was 9, and you don't get a pretty childhood picture


Your misogyny is showing.
You keep insisting that Hilgya is blameless for sleeping unprotected with a virgin without telling him she was legally married and not telling him that the intercourse resulted in birth.
Does that mean that your mysandry is showing?

[Kish]

Yeah, what the hell? Someone, not even argued that Tarquin wasn't a hideously emotionally abusive father, but simply asserted that it was "at the very least implied" that he wasn't?

I don't know what comic you're reading, Themrys.

[KorvinStarmast]

My knowledge of english idioms is failing me, what was it again that the pot called the kettle? Noir. :smallcool:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Are you referring to Minrah, Roy, or Durkon?

Without pretending to be speaking for Kish, "Yes".

GW

[Riftwolf]

I guess she'd fit in at the GiTP forum, would she not? :smallbiggrin:


Wasn't directly referring to the forums, but now you mention it there seems to be a lot of 'demon/saint' arguing going on. I find it interesting that Hilgya, who so far has been shown to have legit reasons to be angry at Durkon and has shown certain amounts of protectiveness and care to her child, is totally evil because of one bitter exchange, while Tarquin, a deluded, tunnel-vision psychopath wearing black and red armour while secretly ruling a proxy tyranny, is considered nuanced.

[hroþila]

Wasn't directly referring to the forums, but now you mention it there seems to be a lot of 'demon/saint' arguing going on. I find it interesting that Hilgya, who so far has been shown to have legit reasons to be angry at Durkon and has shown certain amounts of protectiveness and care to her child, is totally evil because of one bitter exchange, while Tarquin, a deluded, tunnel-vision psychopath wearing black and red armour while secretly ruling a proxy tyranny, is considered nuanced.
I don't think anyone's arguing that Hilgya is "totally evil". Some people think the evidence points towards her being Chaotic Evil, but that doesn't mean everything she does is Evil or stems from Evilness. The reaction is not against people who claim Hilgya isn't Evil (many people have theorized she might be Neutral without eliciting a strong response), but against people who try to portray her as completely or almost completely innocent and, well, sane.

[KorvinStarmast]

but against people who try to portray her as completely or almost completely innocent and, well, sane. I don't see her as other than sane. I am in the camp who lean more toward "chaotic" than 'evil' insofar as assigning any D&D alignment tags.

[JoeyTheNeko]

heh, she makes an convincing argument.

[hroþila]

I don't see her as other than sane. I am in the camp who lean more toward "chaotic" than 'evil' insofar as assigning any D&D alignment tags.
Okay, replace "sane" with "assessing the situation objectively".

[georgie_leech]

Okay, replace "sane" with "assessing the situation objectively".

Name one character in this comic that consistently does that :smalltongue:

[hroþila]

Name one character in this comic that consistently does that :smalltongue:
Okay, replace "assessing the situation objectively" with "assessing the situation even remotely objectively".

I CAN DO THIS ALL DAY

[ericgrau]

If kudzu does die it's only a -2 to con, 5,000 gp and a raise dead to bring him back. He'll be less hardy for life, but at least he'll live.

Not even a wish spell can reverse the con loss. Alternatively a true resurrection spell can prevent the con loss, but it requires a 17th level cleric. I think OotS is about level 16 now.

I noticed the alignment debates. Well, at least we all know she's chaotic from the whole opposites arc and related dialogue. Have fun with the other axis.

[The MunchKING]

Why do people keep saying she could have found a wizard to cast sending and contact him?

Isn't that a clerical spell?
Durkon had it (Elan contacting Julio)
The Cleric of Loki had it (Contacting Durkon when the party was split


V had it and tried to cast it to talk to Haley when the party was split but was foiled by Cloister.

[Vendanna]

I don't see her as other than sane. I am in the camp who lean more toward "chaotic" than 'evil' insofar as assigning any D&D alignment tags.

From all these years we have known by now that Durkon is more Lawful than good (roy is more good than lawful, so even if both are LG we see the differences)

Hilgya could perfectly be Chaotic Evil, but its more Chaotic than evil (while dungeon of dorukan belkar is more evil than chaotic). She is also shown as a Bad mother (by risking the life of the baby by bringing it with her, even if a possibility was offered).

Which is a bit of fresh air for once, from all those books the giant as almost always shown "mothers" as good and "Fathers" as bad, even if it wasn't done of purpose the trend wasn't looking good. (we know that the father figures portrayal on a story is usually to bring conflict with the protagonists.)

The portrayal of Hylgia so far meets all my expectations and I'm quite happy with the character as it has been shown, and want to see more of her in Durkon's arc. Especially waiting if she will throw back at durkon the words he used to part with her (Dwarves are about doing their duty. Even if it makes you miserable, especially in that case.)

Edit: Also the situation with the endangered baby will be more taxing personally for Roy, since we all knew how he feels about those things.

[Dr.Zero]

Oh (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0820.html), yeah (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0820.html), what a (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0929.html) loving father (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0934.html).


Mind you, I know that this is going to restart the debate on Tarquin, but the first link, with Nale reacting with a: "What?" when Tarquin says he must defer to Malack's revenge, shows that Nale expects protection from Tarquin.
The same Tarquin that Nale tried to overthrow.
And usually people don't expect too much protection from other people who don't care for them and who they tried to mess up with.

Thus, all in all, I tend to think that Tarquin has helped/cared for Nale, in the past, as much as the trope "Emperor Ming the Merciless and his offspring" required.



Name one character in this comic that consistently does that :smalltongue:

*Delivers a package*
Sir, this is the internet you won.

[Scowling Dragon]

Honestly, I don't judge characters based on arbitrary social progress requisites or based off of group collective.

And this character is NUTS at the best of it. Even if a good argument could be made that the baby is safer with her (And there is one), going into danger instead of away from it, is no good argument.

[danielmayer]

aaaaawwwww :)
little baby tries turn undead :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:
so cute!!
I'll try to train it to my little five-months-boy!

[KorvinStarmast]

Edit: Also the situation with the endangered baby will be more taxing personally for Roy, since we all knew how he feels about those things. ooh, yeah, the Eric connection. Good call. :smallcool:

[Sinewmire]

what exactly does Kudzu mean that Im not aware of?
It doesnt strike me as a very dwarvish sounding name.
I would have expected that as a name for an Orc.


sch

Yeah.... fun fact, in Tolkein, the name for the Dwarven language is Khuzdul. I'm not sure it would be better if that was intentional or not! :smallbiggrin:

[jere7my]

Delusional? She states facts.
He did, in fact, cast her aside after he had his fun, and left her to raise the child he had impregnated her with alone.

That's what he did, and you cannot argue it away, much as you'd like to.

Her judgement of him is therefore totally justified. Remember that this is everything she knows about him, that he is the sort of man who would have unprotected sex with a woman and then tell her to go back to her husband, knowing full well that the baby won't have the husband's skin colour, even.

The chances of a single instance of unprotected intercourse resulting in a pregnancy, assuming two healthy humans of the appropriate configurations, is at most around 3% (down to near 0% at certain times). Can't say what the chance is for dwarves, but they're traditionally less fertile than humans. You could say that Durkon should have known there was a small chance he would end up a father and taken appropriate steps, but you can't say that he "knew full well" anything about a baby that was less likely than a natural 20.

[Jasdoif]

I don't think anyone's arguing that Hilgya is "totally evil". Some people think the evidence points towards her being Chaotic Evil, but that doesn't mean everything she does is Evil or stems from Evilness. The reaction is not against people who claim Hilgya isn't Evil (many people have theorized she might be Neutral without eliciting a strong response), but against people who try to portray her as completely or almost completely innocent and, well, sane.Personally, I'm wondering how much of her attitude with regards to Durkon is directly about Durkon, versus how much Ivan (and potential post-Durkons) are grouped together with Durkon in her mind.

[Shining Wrath]

Yes, Hilgya's bitter. And not very accurate in her recollections of Durkon. But it appears she's satisfied to kill his undead form.

Even Belkar realizes she's out to lunch on her assessment of Durkon.

[SilverCacaobean]

She starts off with legitimate reasons to be upset but instead of sitting down and figuring out what those reasons to be upset are and who it makes sense to blame, she decides the person in closest proximity is gratuitously evil and stops thinking about it.

Good catch. That's what's been consistent about her in her two appearances.


She is also shown as a Bad mother.

I'm not sure I'd go that far yet. The possibility is certainly there, but she could just be overprotective and only trust herself with her kid. I also think that taking the baby in battle is not a good decision but her argument of him being more safe with her isn't unreasonable. Maybe it's just a single instance of a bad decision instead of indifference. But I see what you mean.

I wonder if we'll finally get a bad mother in the comic or if both Durkon and Hilgya will face their flaws in this arc.

[Cazero]

She is also shown as a Bad mother (by risking the life of the baby by bringing it with her, even if a possibility was offered).
Nonsense. Hilgya is a high level cleric, the class known mostly for powerful party-wide buffs, especially healing and protective spells. Keeping little Kudzu by her side is far safer than letting strangers take him.
Especialy when you have a low opinion of the opposing faith of said strangers. In her place I wouldn't put above said strangers to never give him back using a pretext like "the interest of the baby".

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Nonsense. Hilgya is a high level cleric, the class known mostly for powerful party-wide buffs, especially healing and protective spells. Keeping little Kudzu by her side is far safer than letting strangers take him.

You know what is even safer? NOT going into battle with Kudzu. She is voluntarily choosing to go hunt vampires with a baby strapped to her front. I don't care how much she can protect the kid, she could choose NOT to walk towards battle.

I gave her a pass in the previous comic because she had no way of knowing she was about to face vampires while walking from a dwarven town to the town's Temple of Thor. But now she does know, and she still chooses to take her child into battle. Like everything else she says and does in the page, it reflects very poorly on her decision making and train of thought.

Grey Wolf

[Knaight]

You willingly, happily believe that Hilgya, a woman who FAILED to murder ONE husband she was FORCED to marry, would mistreat her child, when Tarquin, a multiple murderer of wives he himself had chosen, is at the very least implied to not have mistreated his son (beyond raising him to be evil).
Where exactly is it implied that Tarquin didn't mistreat Nale? Is it the part where Tarquin straight up stabs him to death with a knife? Is it where we see Tarquin's treatment of Elan including things like stabbing him to hurt Roy while commenting that he'll live? What about Tarquin putting a bounty on Nale's head that included paying out when dead?


Wasn't directly referring to the forums, but now you mention it there seems to be a lot of 'demon/saint' arguing going on. I find it interesting that Hilgya, who so far has been shown to have legit reasons to be angry at Durkon and has shown certain amounts of protectiveness and care to her child, is totally evil because of one bitter exchange, while Tarquin, a deluded, tunnel-vision psychopath wearing black and red armour while secretly ruling a proxy tyranny, is considered nuanced.
Agreed. Hilgya is a deeply irrational person who makes bad decisions, which is entirely unexpected given that her involvement thus far has been as a member of the Linear Guild - where fitting that description seems to be a key prerequisite for membership, with Nale being somewhere between an exemplar of and the platonic form for those traits. We've seen no indication of malice towards her baby, and we have seen her fiercely (if not wisely) protective of little Kudzu.

Tarquin meanwhile is easily one of the single most vile people depicted in the comic, right up there with Malack and Xykon.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

which is entirely unexpected

I'm guessing this was meant to be "isn't entirely unexpected" or possibly "is entirely to be expected"


Nale being somewhere between an exemplar of and the platonic form for those traits.

I love this phrasing. I may have to steal it for future paraphrasing.

GW

[KorvinStarmast]

With warmest regards, grey wolf, and in response to this:

You know what is even safer? NOT going into battle with Kudzu. She is voluntarily choosing to go hunt vampires with a baby strapped to her front. I don't care how much she can protect the kid, she could choose NOT to walk towards battle. I will argue Narrative imperative. (We have previously covered the issue of She Has Magic which RL mothers do not have)

Back to Narrative Imperative.
It strikes me that this baby, Kudzu, is a necessary part of the encounter with Durkula since Durkon will see through Durkula's eyes this fruit of his loins. His son.
Some time back Durkon indicated that he'd be resisting Durkula (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1085.html), and I think that this will provide improved motive/spark to his internal resistance in whatever form that comes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1086.html).

I admit that I am making a prediction, and many of us have erred when predicting where Rich will go with the story. But that's my prediction.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

With warmest regards, grey wolf, and in response to this:
I will argue Narrative imperative. (We have previously covered the issue of She Has Magic which RL mothers do not have)

She ain't Tarquin or Elan, though, so absent any further evidence in that direction, I doubt she is making the decision to put her baby in harm's way because it makes for a better story.

Yes, I could agree in principle that the story requires her to take Kudzu* into battle for there to be a happy ending for Elan, but I think it still reflects poorly on her decision making. I.e. I do not think it excuses her decision.

Grey Wolf

*btw, I'm not sold on Kudzu being male, baby beard notwithstanding

[KorvinStarmast]

She ain't Tarquin or Elan, though, so absent any further evidence in that direction, I doubt she is making the decision to put her baby in harm's way because it makes for a better story. Two separate points.
(1) She takes her baby to work each day, and because she's a cleric, she can protect the baby in a way RL mothers can't. I am not of the party to find her taking baby to work vile, since I am sure Rich will not kill the baby.
(2) I thus brought up Narrative Imperative solely to think through what the story will do, under the author's hand, and not what this character will do.

Yes, I could agree in principle that the story requires her to take Kudzu (btw, I'm not sold on Kudzu being male) into battle for there to be a happy ending for Elan, but I think it still reflects poorly on her decision making. I.e. I do not think it excuses her decision. (1) Indeed, might be a female baby, the beard is why I refer to Kudzu as he.
(2) I don't think her decision is a poor one because

(a) Magic protection (Sanctuary (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0074.html), if nothing else, if it can be cast "only on the baby" rather than on an area ... not all up on 3.5 in that regard)

(b) My trust in Rich to not have baby killing as part of the meeting with Durkon.

[Jasdoif]

*btw, I'm not sold on Kudzu being male, baby beard notwithstandingHilgya refers to Kudzu with "he" and "him", though.

[Peelee]

I might be an easy sell, but I'm sold on the beard.

[Cazero]

I gave her a pass in the previous comic because she had no way of knowing she was about to face vampires while walking from a dwarven town to the town's Temple of Thor.I guess you can blame her for pursuing revenge instead of dedicating herself to her baby.
However, you gave her a pass for the wrong reason because she planned to kill Durkon, a high level Cleric, and probably anyone else who would stand in her way, like every Cleric of Thor around and the town guards.

So her spell selection must be way off to kill vampires. It's clearly unresponsible of her to keep going on !

[Fyraltari]

Nonsense. Hilgya is a high level cleric, the class known mostly for powerful party-wide buffs, especially healing and protective spells. Keeping little Kudzu by her side is far safer than letting strangers take him.
Thing is she already knows there are several vampires for all she knows there could be in army in there. Assuming you are just going to win, especially after spending some of your spells protecting a non-combatant isn't really a sign of great strategy. Then again if they lose nothing matters cause they're all dead.
Especialy when you have a low opinion of the opposing faith of said strangers. In her place I wouldn't put above said strangers to never give him back using a pretext like "the interest of the baby".[/QUOTE]
That's a good point I didn't think of that.


btw, I'm not sold on Kudzu being male, baby beard notwithstanding

He's safest right here with me

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Two separate points.
(1) She takes her baby to work each day, and because she's a cleric, she can protect the baby in a way RL mothers can't. I am not of the party to find her taking baby to work vile, since I am sure Rich will not kill the baby.

"Taking your baby to work" is fine and dandy, unless you are volunteering to go to the front line of a battlefield. I am quite amazed, in fact, that you really are attempting to downplay the fact that she is under no obligation to go hunt for vampires with her baby, and nevertheless is choosing to do so.


Magic protection (Sanctuary, if nothing else)

A level 1 spell with a wisdom check to overcome. Against vampire priests.

Unless she has an epic level spell of "protection from all harm", it would still be safer for the baby to NOT be taken into a combat that the mom is under no obligation to go to. She could just walk away from this until the Order cleared out the infestation. But she has NOT chosen the safest action for her baby. She has chosen the action that leads to her getting the revenge she wants. So even if she does care for Kudzu - and I agree, we have no reason to think otherwise - she still cares more for herself and her whims than she does for his needs.


you gave her a pass for the wrong reason because she planned to kill Durkon, a high level Cleric, and probably anyone else who would stand in her way, like every Cleric of Thor around and the town guards.

No, I gave her a pass on taking her baby up against the vampires, because she didn't know about them. She was going to the temple of Thor because she had heard there were people there wanting to kill Durkon. Absent the vampire attack, nothing in such a first move should have put Kudzu in danger.

Grey Wolf

[Draconi Redfir]

"Taking your baby to work" is fine and dandy, unless you are volunteering to go to the front line of a battlefield. I am quite amazed, in fact, that you really are attempting to downplay the fact that she is under no obligation to go hunt for vampires with her baby, and nevertheless is choosing to do so.

maybe i misunderstood the thing about abjduration spells, but my understanding was that she was going to be hanging in the back, attacking with ranged spells and providing support, not going onto any sort of front lines. Did nobody else get that idea?

[MReav]

I wonder if Hilgya and Julio Scoundrel are aupposed to embody the uglier side of chaotic alignments. Like, if the negatives of Lawful are that they are authoritarian or at least have an overbearing paternalistic aspect, unsympathetic chaotic people are responsibility dodgers (Hilgya blames and takes out her issues on convenient targets, Julio has a kid in every port on the Southern Continent and avoids dealing with them).

I guess unsympathetic Neutrals are at best fence-sitters and at worst mercenaries (if Therkla was supposed to embody sympathetic neutral, then she can piss off. She seriously expected the people she helped murder to get over it and go their separate ways because it'll keep the people she personally cares about from hurting each other. If her position was supposed to be naive, alright then).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

maybe i misunderstood the thing about abjduration spells, but my understanding was that she was going to be hanging in the back, attacking with ranged spells and providing support, not going onto any sort of front lines. Did nobody else get that idea?

How did that work out for V in the last combat? How well is that likely to work against intelligent creatures who can turn into mist and know that their most dangerous foe is the cleric?

When the entire team is seven people, all of them are in the front lines.

GW

[Jasdoif]

When the entire team is seven people, all of them are in the front lines.Maybe they're even seven front lines.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Maybe they're even seven front lines.

No, in my TW experience, that's one front line that just got flanked.

GW

[TheTinyMan]

I'm in the Hilgya-is-evil camp here, but it does strike me: while bringing her child into combat seems recklessly dangerous, in her eyes, Dwarven society is a terrible and awful thing, for very valid reasons that have been elucidated well over multiple threads by people like Themrys. To Hilgya, though, perhaps the most responsible thing for the baby IS bringing it into battle - because the best ends for the baby would be to grow up seeing her perception of dwarven society, and the baby growing up as another cog in the machine of oppression - i.e. she left the baby behind when she went on a life-threatening mission - would be worse than death.

All that being said...I'm kind of worried that she'll get to a final encounter with Durkula, hear Hel's side of the story, and decide, "yeah, these other dwarves are some oppressive jerks, why am I on their side again?" and turn (maybe figuratively, maybe literally) at a pivotal moment.

Er...turn. You know. Turn undead, like becoming undead. Not like, uh, not-rebuking undead. Darn triple entendre.

[Ruck]

Wait what? Why does this forum automatically censor the colloquial word for feces, but lets misogynist slurs stand? Where is the logic there?
I don't know, honestly. I don't mind it not being auto-censored, but for the usage it's been used ITT, I didn't think that would be allowed to stand.


LOL triggered.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised that a forum for a geek interest has such proud misogynists, but just like Manty, you reveal a lot more about yourself than anyone else with your comments.


Anyway, I don't think what we see of Hilgya in this strip is inconsistent with what we had already seen of her. We didn't see much, and what we saw could be interpreted in different ways.
Agreed.


*btw, I'm not sold on Kudzu being male, baby beard notwithstanding
I'm comfortable doing so because as far as I recall we haven't seen a single Dwarf female in-comic with a beard. Sure, it could be that all the women shave and that's a rigid expectation of Dwarven society, but until more evidence arises I'm going with the simpler explanation for now.


Hilgya refers to Kudzu with "he" and "him", though.
Oh, that, too.

[Skull the Troll]

Delusional? She states facts.
He did, in fact, cast her aside after he had his fun, and left her to raise the child he had impregnated her with alone.

That's what he did, and you cannot argue it away, much as you'd like to.

Her judgement of him is therefore totally justified. Remember that this is everything she knows about him, that he is the sort of man who would have unprotected sex with a woman and then tell her to go back to her husband, knowing full well that the baby won't have the husband's skin colour, even.

Her assuming that he would therefore willingly become a vampire is a bit exaggerated, sure, but she's understandably bitter about the whole thing.

Her assumption that he would treat other women the same as he treated her is, however, quite justified.

Let's be realistic, she has no proof at all that his talk of duty and **** wasn't just a lame excuse on his side for not taking responsibility.


Edit: And the assumption that Hilgya hates little Kudzu is utterly idiotic. Why would she be carrying around a child she hates? Especially those of you who believe she is completely evil should have realized that yes, babies can be killed, ... assuming you live in a country with a misogynist government that won't let you have an abortion. An abortion being the preferable option that she would have taken FIRST if she didn't want a child by Durkon.
And even if you, more reasonably, assume that she would not kill a baby: it was stated that the Church of Loki does provide (bad) childcare, and that would have been the perfect way to rid herself of him without even committing a crime.

You are massively misrepresenting what Durkon did. He didn't "have his fun and cast her aside" He entered into a relationship unknowingly with married woman, and when he found out he broke things off. I can imagine that happening in the real world today, never mind in world based on medieval social norms. He also didn't "Leave her to raise the child" - he had no knowledge of it. I feel fairly certain that Durkon would have taken responsibility if he had known. You're also including a lot of things in your argument that don't really exist as far as I can tell in this world, like birth control, abortions, the ability to predict the skin color of a baby that hasnt been born yet, etc.

*EDIT* I replied to your earlier post, but now I'm wishing I hadn't. I'm not certain you're just trolling here. In which panel in the comic would you have wanted Durkon to take different action, and what should it have been? The only one I can think of is he shouldn't have slept with a woman he just met - but that applies to her as much as him - she definitely was receptive to the idea of them hooking up.


maybe i misunderstood the thing about abjduration spells, but my understanding was that she was going to be hanging in the back, attacking with ranged spells and providing support, not going onto any sort of front lines. Did nobody else get that idea?

What, no one ever makes it past the meatshield?

[drazen]

Hilgya seems nuts, but wasn't there talk a couple comics back that carrying Kudzu into battle was simply a logical thing for a dwarf to do? If their baby dies of illness or negligence of strangers, it goes to Hel. If it dies "in battle," even a battle it can't possibly contribute to, then suddenly that's an honorable death under Dwarven OOTS rules, right?

I think the "die with honor" rule is a really dumb one... go to an Evil goddess of undeath unless you happen to die in a fight? It allows dishonorable (lying, cheating, evil) dwarves into Valhalla, while sending kinder souls who get the flu when there's no cleric nearby to damnation in Hel's domain, which is presumably a lower plane. But if that's the rule, carrying the kid around seems to make a weird sense. And Hilgya yelling at Roy about it would make sense, as well.

What I cannot figure out is how ROY didn't make this connection -- he just heard all about this part of dwarven society at the Godsmoot!

[hroþila]

Hilgya seems nuts, but wasn't there talk a couple comics back that carrying Kudzu into battle was simply a logical thing for a dwarf to do? If their baby dies of illness or negligence of strangers, it goes to Hel. If it dies "in battle," even a battle it can't possibly contribute to, then suddenly that's an honorable death under Dwarven OOTS rules, right?

I think the "die with honor" rule is a really dumb one... go to an Evil goddess of undeath unless you happen to die in a fight? It allows dishonorable (lying, cheating, evil) dwarves into Valhalla, while sending kinder souls who get the flu when there's no cleric nearby to damnation in Hel's domain, which is presumably a lower plane. But if that's the rule, carrying the kid around seems to make a weird sense. And Hilgya yelling at Roy about it would make sense, as well.

What I cannot figure out is how ROY didn't make this connection -- he just heard all about this part of dwarven society at the Godsmoot!
If that was the reason, you'd think Hilgya would have mentioned it instead of going on a tangent. Carrying the baby to battle because it'll have a "good" death doesn't make any more sense than all dwarves dueling each other to extinction: martial societies don't work that way.

[Fyraltari]

Hilgya seems nuts, but wasn't there talk a couple comics back that carrying Kudzu into battle was simply a logical thing for a dwarf to do? If their baby dies of illness or negligence of strangers, it goes to Hel. If it dies "in battle," even a battle it can't possibly contribute to, then suddenly that's an honorable death under Dwarven OOTS rules, right?

I think the "die with honor" rule is a really dumb one... go to an Evil goddess of undeath unless you happen to die in a fight? It allows dishonorable (lying, cheating, evil) dwarves into Valhalla, while sending kinder souls who get the flu when there's no cleric nearby to damnation in Hel's domain, which is presumably a lower plane. But if that's the rule, carrying the kid around seems to make a weird sense. And Hilgya yelling at Roy about it would make sense, as well.

What I cannot figure out is how ROY didn't make this connection -- he just heard all about this part of dwarven society at the Godsmoot!
If you could have an honorable death by dying in a battle you didn't choose to take part in then Hel's plan would make no sense since the entire dwarven race would have an honorable death when the world is unmade, therefore you can't. Sadly that means that every dead dwarf baby goes to Hel.
No the systemvdoes not allow lying, cheating and evil dwarvesvthat had an honorable death in Valhalla it allows them in whatever afterlife suits their alignment (so not a good one).

Yep that rule is horrible everybody fromthe characters to the readers and the author agree on this. That's because it wasn't made while taking the Dwarves' well being into consideration.

[KorvinStarmast]

I am quite amazed, in fact, that you really are attempting to downplay the fact that she is under no obligation to go hunt for vampires with her baby, and nevertheless is choosing to do so.
She may be underestimating the threat the vampires pose.
She might be totally optimized to defeat undead.
She may be far more powerful than any of us appreciate.
She may have carried this baby into a few dozen battles before this scene comes up.

We don't know. You are making more assumptions than I am.

Look, when I was in the military, there's no way I take my kid to battle. None.
But I didn't have magic, see, and in OoTS verse, magic is a thing. (I'll look up "protection from good/evil' 3.5 version and see what it does different to the editions I am more used to).

I recall that her original mission, for Loki, was to get her hands on the amulet for Loki, or Loki's temple

I never wanted to help Nale, he's a big jerk. Loki commanded me to steal the Talisman from him, so I pretended to be his friend, which meant that she'd have to betray/backstab Nale to get the amulet to where she was supposed to get it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0074.html). (Perfect example of a chaotic character; steal the quest treasure from someone else in the party. This archetype goes back to Arneson's original Blackmoor group before D&D was ever published, FWIW).

[Lord Joeltion]

Hilgya has also shown little regard for Dwarven tradition/custom, so it's kinda OOC that she is taking the kid into battle for cultural reasons. I think it's more about her overprotectiveness clashing with her egoistic pursue of her own goals. It's also yet another show of her poor judgement (the best way to be safe from bullets isn't wearing kevlar, it's by avoiding gunfights altogether!)

Despite all her flaws, I seriously want her to end up with Durkon. I think her hyper-rebelliousness would help Durkon overcome his own uber-orthodoxy and love for customs. Maybe they manage to cancel out their own flaws that way. Also, Loki/Thor churches will provide a good Romeo/Juliet narrative, which is always fun. Now with extra Raise Dead!

[hamishspence]

You are massively misrepresenting what Durkon did. He didn't "have his fun and cast her aside" He entered into a relationship unknowingly with married woman, and when he found out he broke things off. I can imagine that happening in the real world today, never mind in world based on medieval social norms.


Or as The Giant puts it in Dungeon Crawling Fools:



Since we already knew Durkon was somewhat passive from his lack of strong identity within the group, I decided to make Hilgya the "aggressor" in the relationship. They don't realize, however, that while opposites attract, they can't always make it work. She's carelessly self-centred, while Durkon is loyally dedicated to others. Her treatment of her husband appalls him, while his judgemental scorn offends her. They have no choice but to "break up" and Durkon, ever the dutiful one, takes responsibility and sends Hilgya away.



Since "selfish vs altruistic" or "self-centred vs dedicated to others" is the Good/Evil axis, not the Law/Chaos axis (there are plenty of selfish LE characters and altruistic CG ones), it makes sense that, at the time, the opposition between them was intended to be Good/Evil and not just Law/Chaos.



I recall that her original mission, for Loki, was to get her hands on the amulet for Loki, or Loki's temple
, which meant that she'd have to betray/backstab Nale to get the amulet to where she was supposed to get it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0074.html). (Perfect example of a chaotic character; steal the quest treasure from someone else in the party. This archetype goes back to Arneson's original Blackmoor group before D&D was ever published, FWIW).

Back then, Chaotic was pretty much synonymous with Evil. It wasn't till much later that effort was put in to make Chaotic people as capable of Good as Lawful people, and Lawful people as capable of Evil as Chaotic people.

[Keltest]

She may be underestimating the threat the vampires pose.
She might be totally optimized to defeat undead.
She may be far more powerful than any of us appreciate.
She may have carried this baby into a few dozen battles before this scene comes up.

We don't know. You are making more assumptions than I am.

Look, when I was in the military, there's no way I take my kid to battle. None.
But I didn't have magic, see, and in OoTS verse, magic is a thing. (I'll look up "protection from good/evil' 3.5 version and see what it does different to the editions I am more used to).

I recall that her original mission, for Loki, was to get her hands on the amulet for Loki, or Loki's temple
, which meant that she'd have to betray/backstab Nale to get the amulet to where she was supposed to get it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0074.html). (Perfect example of a chaotic character; steal the quest treasure from someone else in the party. This archetype goes back to Arneson's original Blackmoor group before D&D was ever published, FWIW).

There is no amount of magic that is going to make going into combat safer than not going into combat. Buffs or not, that kid is at extreme risk just being in the middle of a fight. If someone points a flame strike at her, the kid is toast, period.

[KorvinStarmast]

Hamish, good points and good call up. Your analysis of Hilgya's alignment tags is rational.

Hmm, Protection from Evil is a spell with an alignment: Good. (Or so I read the 3.5 SRD). That might preclude Hilgya from casting it? It does protect 1 creature, but it isn't like a force cube that keeps all harm out ...


If someone points a flame strike at her, the kid is toast, period.
Yep. Hilgya may be underestimating the danger in this encounter.

There is no amount of magic that is going to make going into combat safer than not going into combat.
You don't need to convince me, convince Hilgya. (And good luck with that). I find Roy's objection to be rational, and probably how I'd react. The fact is that we do not know how often she's gone into combat with the kid in tow -- and gotten away with it -- between leaving Durkon, and now. (Strip 1107 = now for these purposes). If she's gotten away with it a few times, then she'll take the attitude "I can manage this!" We know (but she does not) how dangerous this encounter is that the party is facing, and that she is rushing into.

She doesn't know what we, the audience, know about the looming encounter. (And as before, here acceptance of the advice or opinions of others isn't very much).


Back then, Chaotic was pretty much synonymous with Evil. It wasn't till much later that effort was put in to make Chaotic people as capable of Good as Lawful people, and Lawful people as capable of Evil as Chaotic people. Sort of. I started playing D&D in 1975. Depending upon which books the DM read informed a great deal how alignment played out, that was my experience. We negotiated with chaotic beings with some frequency, given that we often had encounters that were very deadly, or were "what the heck is this, maybe we should parley?" in nature. (Heh, one of my favorite raids early on was when we bribed a small tribe of Hobgoblins with gold and cattle to help us defeat some gnolls. )

[Grey_Wolf_c]

as far as I recall we haven't seen a single Dwarf female in-comic with a beard

Wasn't MitD's (non-)act at the circus followed by a "bearded lady" who was just a female dwarf?


To Hilgya, though, perhaps the most responsible thing for the baby IS bringing it into battle - because the best ends for the baby would be to grow up seeing her perception of dwarven society, and the baby growing up as another cog in the machine of oppression - i.e. she left the baby behind when she went on a life-threatening mission - would be worse than death.

Please stop misrepresenting my position. No-one is suggesting she should leave the baby in the care of people she doesn't trust. What I'm saying is that she has the choice to NOT go on the baby-threatening revenge mission. She is not in it to save the world, she just wants to kill Durkon. She is literally putting her own desires ahead of the needs of her child.

She could simply turn around and go to the human lands and raise Kudzu in the ways of the humans. (Of course, then he'd grow unknowing of Loki's wager, die of old age, and spend eternity in Hel's clutches, because that's the kind of future a mother would want for her child, I'm sure).


She may be underestimating the threat the vampires pose.
She might be totally optimized to defeat undead.
She may be far more powerful than any of us appreciate.
She may have carried this baby into a few dozen battles before this scene comes up.

We don't know. You are making more assumptions than I am.

I am making no assumptions whatsoever. I am stating the simple truth: it is safer to NOT take a baby into battle than it is to take said baby into battle. No matter how many spells or levels Hilgya has, the battle avoided is always safer than the battle taken.


She may have carried this baby into a few dozen battles before this scene comes up.

So what? How is this in any way refuting "it is safer to NOT take a baby into battle"?

GW

[hamishspence]

Hamish, good points and good call up. Your analysis of Hilgya's alignment tags is rational.

For another example (focusing more on Thog - but it should be kept in mind that Hilgya has done almost exactly the same thing - killed an innocent (fire) sylph, to achieve her goals)


These are the villains of the strip, after all. They are all Evil, with a capital E. Ever since strip #51, where Thog murders an innocent sylph just because she's there, all the while thinking about puppies, he has intentionally straddled the line between "cute" and "horrifically violent". I want people to be unsure if Thog is an innocent who is lead to evil by his buddy Nale, or if he is truly as black-hearted, just dumber.

People tend to look at Thog and think that he's supposed to be good, deep down, because he's kind of dumb and often funny. He is childlike, but he's the kind of child that pulls the wings off of butterflies. But he is one of the bad guys here, so a little ambivelence on whether to like him or not is perfect.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html

How she killed the sylph, it would appear, is by using her Commanded fire underlings.

[KorvinStarmast]

So what? How is this in any way refuting "it is safer to NOT take a baby into battle"?
GW It's safer to stay home than drive to work. It was safer to stay in Rio than to fly to Paris, June 1, 2009. The people who died on Air France flight 447 made some assumptions about the comparative safety of a long flight.

I already pointed out that if she's done this before, then she's going to take the attitude that "I can handle this" even though we, the audience, know how dangerous the coming encounter is. Ignorance is bliss ... almost a trope. I get the idea that she is blissfully unaware that there are multiple vampires with some seriously bad intentions awaiting in a room nearby, where the battle will take place.

Do I agree with Minrah that the baby would be better off in the Temple of Thor with the kids of that other priest(Rogo)? Yeah. Minrah shows wisdom, prime requisite for a cleric. :smallsmile:

Hilgya is acting in character, as I see it, in adopting the attitude that she has presented so far.

PS: this is a comic. Exaggeration is a tool in the writer's hands.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html

How she killed the sylph, it would appear, is by using her Commanded fire underlings.
I read that strip as Nale killing the sylph, since Hilgya and the two firenewts were on screen, while the murder was off screen to the right.

[hamishspence]

Fair enough - I thought there were a whole bunch of them, not just the ones visible on screen.

Either way, it casts her in a pretty poor light.

[Manty5]

Wait what? Why does this forum automatically censor the colloquial word for feces, but lets misogynist slurs stand? Where is the logic there?

Oh god, we've got another warrior. Say goodbye to the next 20 pages.

I refer you to the "Why are all men such pigs?" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html) strip. Don't worry, I'm sure a whiteknight will be along shortly to explain how any microaggression, no matter how minor, warrants a fainting couch. But only when ONE gender is insulted. Belkar is a walking "men are pigs" trope, but I don't see anyone throwing themselves to the ground in a fit.

EDIT:


I guess I shouldn't be surprised that a forum for a geek interest has such proud misogynists, but just like Manty, you reveal a lot more about yourself than anyone else with your comments.

Never mind the "will be along shortly". It's already arrived. I must be a "past psychic".

[KorvinStarmast]

Fai Either way, it casts her in a pretty poor light. Oh yeah. She's certainly an accomplice.

@Themrys:
should I get deeply offended that Rich often uses goddamn as profanity in OoTS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html)? Please advise. (I'd link to the multiple times Roy has used it, but that one example should suffice).

[Ranadin]

A theory: what if Hilgya's husband be one of Count Durkula's lackeys now?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It's safer to stay home than drive to work. It was safer to stay in Rio than to fly to Paris, June 1, 2009. The people who died on Air France flight 447 made some assumptions about the comparative safety of a long flight.

You keep presenting this as if it helped your position. it does not. Of course it is safer to NOT take the baby to work in your car. People that do it, do it because they have no other choice. Hilgya DOES have a choice. No-one is forcing her to take her baby into battle.

GW

[eilandesq]

Hilgya seems nuts, but wasn't there talk a couple comics back that carrying Kudzu into battle was simply a logical thing for a dwarf to do? If their baby dies of illness or negligence of strangers, it goes to Hel. If it dies "in battle," even a battle it can't possibly contribute to, then suddenly that's an honorable death under Dwarven OOTS rules, right?

I think the "die with honor" rule is a really dumb one... go to an Evil goddess of undeath unless you happen to die in a fight? It allows dishonorable (lying, cheating, evil) dwarves into Valhalla, while sending kinder souls who get the flu when there's no cleric nearby to damnation in Hel's domain, which is presumably a lower plane. But if that's the rule, carrying the kid around seems to make a weird sense. And Hilgya yelling at Roy about it would make sense, as well.

What I cannot figure out is how ROY didn't make this connection -- he just heard all about this part of dwarven society at the Godsmoot!

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that "intentionally exposing your baby to death in battle" goes into the "unacceptable" bin along with the "the dwarves should commit mass suicide via attacking whatever monsters are in range before the world can end" gambit, no matter what imperatives seem to be reasonably implicated by the Loki/Hel bet.

[KorvinStarmast]

You keep presenting this as if it helped your position. it does not. Of course it is safer to NOT take the baby to work in your car. People that do it, do it because they have no other choice. Hilgya DOES have a choice. No-one is forcing her to take her baby into battle.
Please do not confuse me with Hilgya. You are making yet another assumption.
To be clear: I am trying to keep an open mind as regards Hilgya, rather than leaping to the conclusions that a great many of the other posters are leaping to, or pigeonholing her. As I noted in another post, she is drawn in two dimensions but I think that Rich has brought her back as a three dimensional character. His story telling has improved quite a bit since we last had Hilgya on screen.

We have this immense gap of understanding: between the time she and Durkon walked in opposite directions and her arrival via "turn undead" and "help murder Durkon Thundershield" there's been about a year and a half of in world time for her to
(1) Keep Adventuring
(2) Probably gain a few levels
(3) Carry to term and then give birth to a Baby
(4) Return (via what route/means?) to the Dwarven homelands that she'd fled years before, and arrive in Firmament "in the nick of time" to meet up with OoTS.

We don't actually know what she has faced, nor what she has done, since the ultimately sad carnal encounter with Durkon.
Where you sit determines what you see.
I am trying to understand this from inside the boots of Hilgya. Not that easy, given how little we have to work with.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Please do not confuse me with Hilgya. You are making yet another assumption.
To b clear: I am trying to keep an open mind, as regards Hilgya, rather than leaping to the conclusions that a great many of the other posters are leaping to. We have this immense gap of understanding: between she and Durkon walking in opposite directions, and her arrival via "turn undead" and "help murder Durkon Thundershield" there's been about a year and a half of in world time for her to
Keep Adventuring
Probably gain a few levels
Have a Baby
Return (via what route/means?) to the Dwarven homelands that she'd fled years before, and arrive in Firmament "in the nick of time" to meet up with OoTS.

We don't actually know what she has faced, nor what she has done, since the ultimately sad carnal encounter with Durkon.
Where you sit determines what you see. I am trying to understand this from inside the boots of Hilgya. Not that easy, given how little we have to work with.

None of which is germane to the point, which was

You know what is even safer? NOT going into battle with Kudzu. She is voluntarily choosing to go hunt vampires with a baby strapped to her front. I don't care how much she can protect the kid, she could choose NOT to walk towards battle.

None of those things in any way change that it is less safe to take Kudzu into battle than it is to say "I'd love to help, but I have a baby, and I would rather not put him in further danger".

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

Of course it is safer to NOT take the baby to work in your car. People that do it, do it because they have no other choice. Hilgya DOES have a choice. No-one is forcing her to take her baby into battle.Quite the opposite, in fact: She outright refused to leave Kudzu out of harm's way. Does she think "a bunch of Thor flunkies" are a bigger threat to Kudzu than a bunch of vampires, or is she not trusting anyone but herself to protect him?

[KorvinStarmast]

None of those things in any way change that it is less safe to take Kudzu into battle than it is to say "I'd love to help, but I have a baby, and I would rather not put him in further danger". Once again, please to not confuse me, a person, with Hilgya, a comic strip character. As above, my take is that Minrah is talking sense, and so is Roy. But this is a comic ...

Also, stay home tomorrow. It's safer not to drive.

[Fyraltari]

A theory: what if Hilgya's husband be one of Count Durkula's lackeys now?




My Theory I know will never happen, but I really want it to so bad:

It would be really funny, awkward even, if after having run away from him Ivan decided to go join a religion and changed his name to Gontor.

Points in favor: We never learned Ivan's last name. interesting coincidence

Points against: Everything else, including common sense.

Wait... Gontor was provided with an arranged marriage... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1087.html) He is not perceptive and trusts the obviously dangerous killer...
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0995.html)

:eek:


I'm giving it a 20% chance of happening.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Quite the opposite, in fact: She outright refused to leave Kudzu out of harm's way. Does she think "a bunch of Thor flunkies" are a bigger threat to Kudzu than a bunch of vampires, or is she not trusting anyone but herself to protect him?

I give up. Is this supposed to be in support of, or against my post?


Once again, please to not confuse me, a person, with Hilgya, a comic strip character. As above, my take is that Minrah is talking sense, and so is Roy. But this is a comic ... .

I am not confusing you with anyone. You are the one that suggested there was nothing wrong about Hilgya taking her baby to battle "because she's powerful enough to keep him safe", despite this not actually being in any way a counter for "it would be safer for her not to go into battle at all."


Also, stay home tomorrow. It's safer not to drive.

I take this to be meant as trolling. I am done with you.

GW

[KorvinStarmast]

I take this to be meant as trolling. Nope, it's to lampoon your continued tunnel vision regarding the point you keep badgering me about. There is no need to take offense, as none was intended.

You are the one that suggested there was nothing wrong about Hilgya taking her baby to battle "because she's powerful enough to keep him safe", From her point of view. You once again seem to be unable to differentiate between me, and Hilgya.

In the first two threads that concerned Hilgya, a variety of assumptions were made and conclusions were leaped to by many of those discussing the neat return of a character we'd not see for some years. I am included in that population, as I made some assumptions regarding motherhood and its effects on Hilgya that, with discussion, I came to see as probably poor assumptions.

In the next few strips, some more of the assumptions about Hilgya will doubtless be shattered. As I noted a few pages back, I trust Rich not to kill babies, so I don't think there's any point in worrying about Hilgya's (odd) position.
Roy worries about it, and so does Minrah. I'll let them handle that worry, in character, since I don't have to. I am not in the comic strip.

[Cazero]

Does she think "a bunch of Thor flunkies" are a bigger threat to Kudzu than a bunch of vampires, or is she not trusting anyone but herself to protect him?Probably both.

[Ruck]

Oh yeah. She's certainly an accomplice.

@Themrys:
should I get deeply offended that Rich often uses goddamn as profanity in OoTS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html)? Please advise. (I'd link to the multiple times Roy has used it, but that one example should suffice).
I don't understand the need for gotchas and whataboutisms regarding a poster here clearly using the word "bitch" in a misogynistic manner, then responding "LOL triggered" when called out on it.

[Manty5]

Also, stay home tomorrow. It's safer not to drive.

Logical fallacy. It is MUCH more safe for a human in our world to drive a car than it is to bring a baby into battle... in any world.

You're lampooning all right, but not the person you think you are lampooning.