D&D 3.5 epic

[Evy]

Okay so im coming into this epic campaign and a few of the players are power players. That being said im not much of a power player but i try but this time i need help. Character statistics are - 5,000,000 gp, stats (i rolled) 18, 18, 17, 16, 16, 15 and level 28 3.5 everything in books is viable or have to take it up with the DM. So i like playing everything but i wanted to build something that is super powerful yet immune to almost everything and hard as hell to hit. I made a persistant build with a wiz/cleric/mystic theurge build but im not liking the outcome. So my question to the playground is that, is there any of you who want to help out a fellow player in making such a powerful character? More power the better, more me not getting hit the better, more they will die and i will live the better... Let's do this!! :D

[flappeercraft]

I can help out and make a draft build but that would have to be in like 16 hours from now because its very late here and have a busy morning. If you're still interested I can pull out some concepts that you could like by then and start uo whichever you like the most.

Also, is LA allowed?

[Evy]

I can help out and make a draft build but that would have to be in like 16 hours from now because its very late here and have a busy morning. If you're still interested I can pull out some concepts that you could like by then and start uo whichever you like the most.

Also, is LA allowed?

Yes LA is allowed and yea take your time :) im just happy someone can help! Thank you!!

[ViperMagnum357]

Basic questions: Epic Magic and Psionics yea or nay; Leadership feats; Dragon/Dungeon magazines; LA buyoff/reduction; and maybe a quick overview of the group and rough level of optimization.

First thought-level 28 is far enough along that Ultimate Magus becomes viable. Assuming quick entry and standard Wizard/Sorcerer, you should have just about a full spell compliment for both classes-and Arcane Spell Power should keep your caster level at least in line with your ECL. Using the Epic progression rules and take Ultimate Magus from level 11+; up to level 10, start with Sorcerer 1, and Wizard+full caster for 9 levels. That should give you Wizard 21 and Sorcerer 19 casting, with a final caster level of 27 and 25, and one level away from finishing your base spell allotment of Sorcerer. Expanded spell knowledge for your Sorcerer spells known is nice, and free metamagic through augmented casting is awesome.

Level 29 should finish the Sorcerer spell compliment and Arcane Spell Power will bring you to caster levels of 29 and 27.

BTW, excellent rolling-what rules?

[Evy]

Basic questions: Epic Magic and Psionics yea or nay; Leadership feats; Dragon/Dungeon magazines; LA buyoff/reduction; and maybe a quick overview of the group and rough level of optimization.

First thought-level 28 is far enough along that Ultimate Magus becomes viable. Assuming quick entry and standard Wizard/Sorcerer, you should have just about a full spell compliment for both classes-and Arcane Spell Power should keep your caster level at least in line with your ECL. Using the Epic progression rules and take Ultimate Magus from level 11+, with Sorcerer 1, and Wizard+full caster for 9 levels. That should give you Wizard 21 and Sorcerer 19 casting, with a final caster level of 27 and 25, and one level away from finishing your base spell allotment of Sorcerer. Expanded spell knowledge for your Sorcerer spells known is nice, and free metamagic through augmented casting is awesome.

Level 29 should finish the Sorcerer spell compliment and Arcane Spell Power will bring you to caster levels of 29 and 27.

BTW, excellent rolling-what rules?

Nice like the idea but alas a member in the party is already an ultimate magus.. Dont want to steal his thunder as a damage and self defensive spells caster though... Rules for rolling were i believe 2d6 drop the lowest add 12? Don't quote me but i think thats it. Also no LA buy off but epic magic and psionics are a go.

EDIT: dragon magazines yes dungeon the DM said no on.

[ViperMagnum357]

Nice like the idea but alas a member in the party is already an ultimate magus.. Dont want to steal his thunder as a damage and self defensive spells caster though... Rules for rolling were i believe 2d6 drop the lowest add 12? Don't quote me but i think thats it. Also no LA buy off but epic magic and psionics are a go.

EDIT: dragon magazines yes dungeon the DM said no on.

Took the wind right out of my sails there. :smalltongue:

As for resilience...see if Undead + the Human Heritage feat will fly.

[Evy]

Took the wind right out of my sails there. :smalltongue:

As for resilience...see if Undead + the Human Heritage feat will fly.

What would that do exactly?

[Caelestion]

What would that do exactly?

The feat allows half-humans to count as humans by giving them the Humanoid (Human) type & subtype. The cheese comes when you claim that said type overrides all other changes, such as becoming undead, whilst still keeping all the perks of being undead.

[flappeercraft]

Ok, so do you want to be a beatstick, caster or what? What is your character concept?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Whatever you do, I suggest you do it in someone else's body. Either play a ghost with the malevolence ability or an outsider with levels in fiend of possession, and find others' bodies to play around in. Even for a full caster, this is a great deal, because it grants you significant protection against basically everything except soul-affecting magic, which just about everyone has to deal with. Of course, if you have an iron circlet of guarded souls (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/iron-circlet-of-guarded-souls/), this becomes a non-issue as well.

[Lazymancer]

So i like playing everything but i wanted to build something that is super powerful yet immune to almost everything and hard as hell to hit.
You will get hit. What you should prepare for is the consequences of being hit.

For example, you might go Lich (or Dry Lich - from Sandstorm). Alternatively, as it was suggested here - a ghost (lots of bodies, and even if you'll get killed, you'll pass the level check easily).


I made a persistant build with a wiz/cleric/mystic theurge build but im not liking the outcome.
What was the problem?


So my question to the playground is that, is there any of you who want to help out a fellow player in making such a powerful character? More power the better, more me not getting hit the better, more they will die and i will live the better... Let's do this!! :D
Builds as such don't matter for casters (especially, high-level casters). Not as much as their spell selection - and spell use.

[flappeercraft]

Ok, started statting it up on mythweavers, sorry that I took long but my day was busier than expected. Just started statting it out so I should have it done in a couple of hours or tomorrow. When I am done or have done a good chunk of it done I will start giving a rundown on what it does as an edit on this post.

https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1421479

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It'd only take a few feats, a couple of levels in psychic warrior, and kobold as your race to pull this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?132294-Tiny-Von-BigMcLargeHuge) off. Be counted as both Tiny and Huge at the same time? Yep. Just make sure you have the Human Blood feat, or Human Heritage (since according to Dragon Magazine, kobolds can apparently interbreed with humans). That's not saying you can't have Dragonwrought, too. Or Otherworldly, for that matter. Maybe all three?

[Evy]

Ok, so do you want to be a beatstick, caster or what? What is your character concept?

How much of a possibility to do it all or close to it or casting and a beatstick among other stuff. I like being able to be in the midst of combat and still be able to be a caster if need be and a powerful one at that. Maybe buffing fighting capabilities and such?


You will get hit. What you should prepare for is the consequences of being hit.

For example, you might go Lich (or Dry Lich - from Sandstorm). Alternatively, as it was suggested here - a ghost (lots of bodies, and even if you'll get killed, you'll pass the level check easily).


What was the problem?


Builds as such don't matter for casters (especially, high-level casters). Not as much as their spell selection - and spell use.

I know being hit is a problem but to be hit less amount of times or just that hard to hit would be preffered... The problem was that i didn't know that many spells to persist and/or work with. The build came out to be a cleric with 8th level spells and wizard with 9th level spells, the build went wizard 3/ cleric 3/ human paragon 3/ incantatrix 3/ abjurant champion 5/ mystic theurge 10/ spelldancer 1, primary focus on transmutation and polymorph spell line such as Draconic Polymorph into a Titan or Balor with the Bite of the Were- line and also with the fell-drain spell feat on spells like fire/cold shield, death armor, also had greater luminous armor, and for spellcraft checks i had Item Familiar feat as my weapon, its a Bastard Sword(two handed) with spellblade enhancement to be immune to greater dispel magic(targeted) and i worshiped helm for the planning domain.


Ok, started statting it up on mythweavers, sorry that I took long but my day was busier than expected. Just started statting it out so I should have it done in a couple of hours or tomorrow. When I am done or have done a good chunk of it done I will start giving a rundown on what it does as an edit on this post.

https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1421479

Awesome! I'll check it out soon!


It'd only take a few feats, a couple of levels in psychic warrior, and kobold as your race to pull this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?132294-Tiny-Von-BigMcLargeHuge) off. Be counted as both Tiny and Huge at the same time? Yep. Just make sure you have the Human Blood feat, or Human Heritage (since according to Dragon Magazine, kobolds can apparently interbreed with humans). That's not saying you can't have Dragonwrought, too. Or Otherworldly, for that matter. Maybe all three?

I'll definitely have to check this out.

[tyckspoon]

How much of a possibility to do it all or close to it or casting and a beatstick among other stuff. I like being able to be in the midst of combat and still be able to be a caster if need be and a powerful one at that. Maybe buffing fighting capabilities and such?


If Epic Magic is on the table, it's pretty easy - buffing basic combat numbers (AC, stats, saves, etc) is one of the things you can actually do fairly effectively using the Epic Spell creation rules 'as intended' (ie, without applying nigh-infinite mitigation techniques to create free spells, which you don't want to do unless the entire table is doing it.. in which case congratulations, you are now playing freeform D&D.) Combat beatsticking is mostly a numbers game backed up with a couple of basic feats, so if you can get your numbers where they need to be you can hang in a melee fight regardless of what your base class/class features are. It's harder without Epic Magic, because you have to actually care about your buffs and class selection and gear shopping instead of just writing a custom epic spell to cover whatever it is you need.

Speaking of gear, you're probably going to be tempted to buy big fancy Epic magic items. Don't - almost all of them cost wayyy too much for what they actually give back. Go trawl through your books and buy every non-Epic magic item you like the looks of. Find that one item that gives a +2 bonus to something in a rare bonus type that you wouldn't normally bother with and buy it. Use the item-combining rules to glue it onto another item if you're running into item slot limits. You will usually end up with much broader and more efficient capabilities buying 1.44 mil worth of non-Epic items over a single Item of Epic Stat Bonus +12.

(Exceptions: If Epic Magic is a thing in your game, a Rod of Excellent Magic or two is a worthy investment because it allows you to more freely use XP as a mitigation cost. And if you want to hit things in Epic you probably want a weapon with a +6 base enhancement so you can handle DR/Epic without worrying about having to swap to your special Bane weapon or arguing with your DM if Shadow Striking can defeat /Epic DR.)

[ViperMagnum357]

If Epic Magic is on the table, it's pretty easy - buffing basic combat numbers (AC, stats, saves, etc) is one of the things you can actually do fairly effectively using the Epic Spell creation rules 'as intended' (ie, without applying nigh-infinite mitigation techniques to create free spells, which you don't want to do unless the entire table is doing it.. in which case congratulations, you are now playing freeform D&D.) Combat beatsticking is mostly a numbers game backed up with a couple of basic feats, so if you can get your numbers where they need to be you can hang in a melee fight regardless of what your base class/class features are. It's harder without Epic Magic, because you have to actually care about your buffs and class selection and gear shopping instead of just writing a custom epic spell to cover whatever it is you need.

Speaking of gear, you're probably going to be tempted to buy big fancy Epic magic items. Don't - almost all of them cost wayyy too much for what they actually give back. Go trawl through your books and buy every non-Epic magic item you like the looks of. Find that one item that gives a +2 bonus to something in a rare bonus type that you wouldn't normally bother with and buy it. Use the item-combining rules to glue it onto another item if you're running into item slot limits. You will usually end up with much broader and more efficient capabilities buying 1.44 mil worth of non-Epic items over a single Item of Epic Stat Bonus +12.

(Exceptions: If Epic Magic is a thing in your game, a Rod of Excellent Magic or two is a worthy investment because it allows you to more freely use XP as a mitigation cost. And if you want to hit things in Epic you probably want a weapon with a +6 base enhancement so you can handle DR/Epic without worrying about having to swap to your special Bane weapon or arguing with your DM if Shadow Striking can defeat /Epic DR.)

Pretty much this. A quick look through the list of necessary magic items will give you a start place, with a couple of exceptions. For one thing, continuous Mind Blank is now required rather than merely awesome, for the Divination block-at epic, nondetection effects no longer cut it. As for actually hitting things with a weapon-any uber charger build should be able to easily overcome any DR through more damage, but that pigeonholes your tactics and they become less reliable at those levels. A +6 weapon with Shadowstriking will cover most bases, but is plenty expensive and locks you into a single weapon attack routine. Multiple weapons/natural attacks run up against serious problems when everything has DR 20-30 and require extra actions to bypass, and multiple +6 or better weapons are generally out of the question. If you want to go that route, you can grab the Sense Weakness feat to ignore the first 5 points of any DR including X/-, then focus on increasing your bonuses to damage/Str/whatever.

[AthasianWarlock]

I am currently playing a psion / thrallherd that is working really well. You can schism timeless body and ignore most things and you can pair it with improved overchannel to do your level *2 d6 no save no SR crystal shards round over round. I fuse every encounter with my thrall who is a wizard so I also gain access to the celerity line.

True mind switch is also awesome.
After this encounter I will be using true mind switch with a shadow sibling to inhabit my thrall while picking up assume supernatural ability via psychic reformation.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I am currently playing a psion / thrallherd that is working really well. You can schism timeless body and ignore most things and you can pair it with improved overchannel to do your level *2 d6 no save no SR crystal shards round over round. I fuse every encounter with my thrall who is a wizard so I also gain access to the celerity line.

True mind switch is also awesome.
After this encounter I will be using true mind switch with a shadow sibling to inhabit my thrall while picking up assume supernatural ability via psychic reformation.A source of power point recharge comes in really handy at higher levels, especially if you're not using epic magic and/or psionics. Also, unlike with Vancian magic and epic spell slots, you CAN increase your power point totals in epic, though you need to multiclass to do so. A trick I like to use is to take the Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) feat; that way, your manifester level keeps growing as you gain levels, even if you multiclass. So taking that feat, a psion 20/ardent 20 with really good Int and Wis scores has double the power points of a psion 40, which is almost required, as powers require that you spend more pp to augment, while magic continues to auto-scale.

[AthasianWarlock]

A source of power point recharge comes in really handy at higher levels, especially if you're not using epic magic and/or psionics. Also, unlike with Vancian magic and epic spell slots, you CAN increase your power point totals in epic, though you need to multiclass to do so. A trick I like to use is to take the Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) feat; that way, your manifester level keeps growing as you gain levels, even if you multiclass. So taking that feat, a psion 20/ardent 20 with really good Int and Wis scores has double the power points of a psion 40, which is almost required, as powers require that you spend more pp to augment, while magic continues to auto-scale.

I think applying Supernatural Transformation to psionics is a bit dubious. I could likely argue it but being able to ignore SR and XP costs on every power is something my DM would most defiantly ban. I had a trick where I could recharge my power points using stacked affinity fields but people got all bent out of shape about it so I dropped it.

To get more power points I used greater metamorphosis to turn into a zodar and wished for a ring of epic psionics IV.

[noob]

Also you could go through the epic leadership route and then leadership stack to somehow create hundreds of level 20+ characters under your control.

[Evy]

Intrigued by the psionics..

What kind of epic spell would i have to create to get these fantastic bonuses you speak of. I know the rules are in the epic level handbook bit im at work right now and dont have any books with me, what would the bonuses and such be looking like and what type to create it? If i stay with the buffing i might just stay with the persistent build but in not to sure if what i have as noted before would be that powerful compared to other builds. Im a huge fan of the persistent build haha but i dont know how to make it as OP as other people.. So if i stay that route what would you guys suggest as class levels and spells and the like?

[noob]

Do you think that alone you can persist more spells than 1024 level 20 incantatrixes?
if you want to persist a lot of things epic leadership stacking abuse is the way to go.

[flappeercraft]

Do you think that alone you can persist more spells than 1024 level 20 incantatrixes?
if you want to persist a lot of things epic leadership stacking abuse is the way to go.

I honestly find persisting a bit obsolete. Instead just cast Planar Bubble, make sure to have it bound to the Astral Plane. This could be done via a ressurection spell or any of that spell line on yourself while on that plane or just wish to make yourself native to the Astral Plane. That makes the spells last indefinitely due to the timeless trait of the Astral Plane making magic that is non-instantaneous permanent until dispelled.

[noob]

I was comparing leadership abuse to persist.
Not saying that it was a good idea.
You might also become a planar shepherd of the far realms.
It is quite cool to have infinite time.

[Evy]

How does one go about doing the whole astral plane thingy? I've never heard of this?

[Duskanor]

A great character is 18 Druid & 10 Planar Shepherd, If you do this take Dal Quor as your plane and you get 10x as many actions as everybody else thanks to Dal Quor's 10 to 1 time ratio. The reason why Druids are good is because they have access to good spellcasting and are not affected by armor when spellcasting. They also get badass animal companions & abilities.

Another great option is Ranger 10, Invisible Blade 5, Rogue 13. With the Invisible Blade prestige you can do some pretty mystical **** when dual weilding or sneak attacking. I'm not gonna explain everything but lets just say my friend runs one and he made a demigod that was supposed to be the strongest thing we've fought look like fodder.

I honestly have no preference over these. They can both totally destroy if you know what your doing.

[tyckspoon]

Intrigued by the psionics..

What kind of epic spell would i have to create to get these fantastic bonuses you speak of. I know the rules are in the epic level handbook bit im at work right now and dont have any books with me, what would the bonuses and such be looking like and what type to create it? If i stay with the buffing i might just stay with the persistent build but in not to sure if what i have as noted before would be that powerful compared to other builds. Im a huge fan of the persistent build haha but i dont know how to make it as OP as other people.. So if i stay that route what would you guys suggest as class levels and spells and the like?

Pasted from an older post, since this question comes up again every so often. This one was for somebody asking about early Epic spells, possibly achievable as a fresh-faced level 21 or 22:

Base DC for the seed: 17.
Base Effect:
You or a target you touch gets +1 Enhancement to a stat for 20 hours.

That's not terribly useful, is it? Well, let's start playing with it. We'll try to get you something that can replace that Cloak of Charisma, because the epic stat-boosting items are among the least efficient uses of gold ever printed.

Duration: Increase Duration by 100%, x7. This will make it last a little bit over a week. +14 DC (28.)

Increase Effect: +1 more bonus/2 DC. Trying to match your cloak, so we need +11 more effect. +22 DC (50.)

Now, as is, this is a useful spell, but it's a bit outside your current safe Spellcraft check. It's also kind of expensive, so we turn to Mitigating Factors:

Increase Casting Time: increase by 1 minute, 9x. -18 (32.)
Reduce Target Options: Change from 'touch' to 'personal.' -2 (30.)

30 DC is quite doable, and reasonably affordable for your ECL. But if you want to really make it good, acquire a Rod of Excellent Magic and add in

XP Cost: 2,000 XP (supplied by Rod of Excellent Magic, 1/day) -20.

End DC: 10.
End effect: +12 Charisma for a week at a time.
End cost: Less than 3/4 of what you paid for that Epic Cloak of Charisma, including the cost of the Rod of Excellent Magic as a one-time investment. And then you go and make the same spell in a Dexterity variant, and a Con variant, or whatever other stats you feel you need, as well as for any saves you're concerned about and Natural Armor- since they have a week duration, you can just cast 1/day as part of your morning routine and keep up to 7 such buffs in rotation.


Your character has much greater resources available; the practical limit to how strong these can get is how much mitigation you can reasonably use before your DM starts throwing Epic Books at you. A final Spellcraft DC of around 50 can get you something like a +40 bonus, and you can have one of those for every stat if you're willing to invest enough gold/xp in developing them.

[Caelestion]

+700% duration is only 160 hours - 8 hours short of a standard week.

[Evy]

Pasted from an older post, since this question comes up again every so often. This one was for somebody asking about early Epic spells, possibly achievable as a fresh-faced level 21 or 22:

Base DC for the seed: 17.
Base Effect:
You or a target you touch gets +1 Enhancement to a stat for 20 hours.

That's not terribly useful, is it? Well, let's start playing with it. We'll try to get you something that can replace that Cloak of Charisma, because the epic stat-boosting items are among the least efficient uses of gold ever printed.

Duration: Increase Duration by 100%, x7. This will make it last a little bit over a week. +14 DC (28.)

Increase Effect: +1 more bonus/2 DC. Trying to match your cloak, so we need +11 more effect. +22 DC (50.)

Now, as is, this is a useful spell, but it's a bit outside your current safe Spellcraft check. It's also kind of expensive, so we turn to Mitigating Factors:

Increase Casting Time: increase by 1 minute, 9x. -18 (32.)
Reduce Target Options: Change from 'touch' to 'personal.' -2 (30.)

30 DC is quite doable, and reasonably affordable for your ECL. But if you want to really make it good, acquire a Rod of Excellent Magic and add in

XP Cost: 2,000 XP (supplied by Rod of Excellent Magic, 1/day) -20.

End DC: 10.
End effect: +12 Charisma for a week at a time.
End cost: Less than 3/4 of what you paid for that Epic Cloak of Charisma, including the cost of the Rod of Excellent Magic as a one-time investment. And then you go and make the same spell in a Dexterity variant, and a Con variant, or whatever other stats you feel you need, as well as for any saves you're concerned about and Natural Armor- since they have a week duration, you can just cast 1/day as part of your morning routine and keep up to 7 such buffs in rotation.


Your character has much greater resources available; the practical limit to how strong these can get is how much mitigation you can reasonably use before your DM starts throwing Epic Books at you. A final Spellcraft DC of around 50 can get you something like a +40 bonus, and you can have one of those for every stat if you're willing to invest enough gold/xp in developing them.

Oh wow! Thank you so much for the run down!! Will be duely noted for when i get home and toss some stuff around.

Edit: What would be good cleric and wizard spells to persist?

[skunk3]

Half-celestial (LA +4)/human, Cleric 20 / Hierophant 4. (Select "spell power" and divine metamagic feats at each hierophant level, or if you already have the divine feats you want just go with spell power.)

It would be simple to build and play, plus since you're not doing a ton of multiclassing you'd have pretty darn good BAB and save bonuses. DMM persist the best buff spells and just go into battle like a boss.

[skunk3]

Also highly suggested: Some sort of custom item with permanent 'favor of the martyr' (just look at the immunities it gives you, its insane)