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Finerty
2007-08-20, 04:35 PM
Table X-Treme: The Velocimancer
{table]Class Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9
1st|+0|+0|+2|+0|Velocimancer Programming|5|3
2nd|+1|+0|+3|+0|Dash|6|4
3rd|+1|+1|+3|+1|Eclectic Learning|6|5
4th|+2|+1|+4|+1|Dodge +1|6|6|3
5th|+2|+1|+4|+1|Chronocountercasting (Defensive)|6|6|4
6th|+3|+2|+5|+2|Eclectic Learning|6|6|5|3
7th|+3|+2|+5|+2|Future Sense +1, Fast casting (move-swift)|6|6|6|4
8th|+4|+2|+6|+2|Armor Adaptation|6|6|5|3
9th|+4|+3|+6|+3|Dodge +2|6|6|6|6|6|4
10th|+5|+3|+7|+3|Speed +10ft.|6|6|6|6|5|3
11th|+5|+3|+7|+3|Eclectic Learning|6|6|6|6|6|4
12th|+6/+1|+4|+8|+4|Fast casting (standard-move)|6|6|6|6|6|5|3
13th|+6/+1|+4|+8|+4|Chronocountercasting (Offensive)|6|6|6|6|6|6|4
14th|+7/+2|+4|+9|+4|Dodge +3|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3
15th|+7/+2|+5|+9|+5|Eclectic Learning|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4
16th|+8/+3|+5|+10|+5|Fast casting (Full-round-standard)|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3
17th|+8/+3|+5|+10|+5|Future Sense +2|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4
18th|+9/+4|+6|+11|+6|Speed Bonus +20ft.|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3
19th|+9/+4|+6|+11|+6|Eclectic Learning|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4
20th|+10/+5|+6|+12|+6|Dodge +4|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5
[/table]

Hit Dice: d4
Class Skills (2 + Int modifier per level): Bluff, Craft, Gather Information, Jump, Knowledge (all skills, taken individually), Listen, Profession, Search, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Velocimancers are proficient with all simple weapons, as well as the rapier, whip, and the spiked chain. They are proficient with light shields, but are not proficient with any armor.

Spellcasting: A velocimancer casts a number of arcane and divine spells, drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. Unlike sorcerers or wizards, velocimancers automatically know all spells on their list each level, like a cleric. To learn (see Esoteric learning, below) or cast a spell, a velocimancer must have a Dexterity score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a velocimancer's spell is 10 + the spell level + the velocimancer's Dex modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a velocimancer can cast only a certain number of spells of each level per day. His base daily allotment is given in Table X-Treme: The Velocimancer. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Dexterity score (see Table 1-1 on page 8 of the Player's Handbook). The velocimancer casts his spells spontaneously, and need not decide ahead of time which spells he will cast that day.
Velocimancer Programming: Velocimancers are not born, nor are they trained - They are made. Speed magic is not a natural extension of the magical forces that govern the world, but rather an artifice designed to optimize a soldier's spellcasting power, at the expense of the soldier's life force. This programming is partially subconscious, allowing the velocimancer to use his spellcasting powers without study, but it also has its detrimental side-effects. Concentration is dificult for the jittery velocimancer, and is therefore (despite being a crucial skill), not a class skill. In addition, the velocimancer cannot use armor, even at penalty: while wearing any armor at all, the velocimancer's spellcasting powers are entirely suppressed by the inhibiting nature of the armor, until he adjusts to his powers (see Armor Adaptation below). One beneficial quirk of his programming is that he can replace the verbal component of any spell he knows with a somatic component, and therefore is unaffected by silence (the typical velocimancer, in fact, enjoys silence, which is an aspect of stillness, something he never gets).

Dash: At 2nd level, a velocimancer gains Dash as a bonus feat.

Eclectic Learning: At 3rd, 6th, 11th, 16th, and 19th level, you can choose to add a new spell to your list that is not within your Velocimancer Programming. The spell must be a sorcerer/wizard spell, but it can be from any school. The spell is treated as being one level higher than normal (for example, invisibility, a 2nd-level sorcerer/wizard spell, would be treated as a 3rd-level velocimancer spell for you). You must be capable of casting spells of the new spell's adjusted level - for instance, you can't choose a 3rd-level sorcerer/wizard spell at 6th level, because the spell is treated as a 4th-level spell for you.

Dodge: A velocimancer's reflexes allow him to constantly stay on the balls of his toes. At 4th level, he gains a dodge bonus to AC as indicated on Table X-Treme: The Velocimancer. Unlike with the Dodge feat, this dodge bonus applies against all attackers. If the velocimancer is caught flat-footed, this bonus does not apply to his AC. This bonus improves to +2 at 9th level, +3 at 14th level, and +4 at 20th level.

Chronocountercasting: A velocimancer is an extremely twitchy individual. One of the first defenses that develops in a velocimancer is the ability to react with his primary weapon, his speed magic. Upon reaching 2nd level, if a velocmiancer is caught flat-footed, he can cast a spell with a casting time no longer than a move action as an immediate action, in response to an surprise attack made against him. The spell can affect the velocimancer himself only, but at 13th level, the velocimancer's future sense enables him to sense where the attack will come from, and the countercast spell can be cast on the attacker, immediately after the attack is resolved.

Future Sense: As the velocimancer gets more in touch with his programming, he becomes able to control his future sense, the ability to sense the next twist in the timestream. He gains an insight bonus on initiative as indicated on Table X-Treme: The Velocimancer.

Fast Casting: One of the most potent abilities that a velocimancer has is the ability to speed up the casting of his speed magic. At 7th level, he can cast spells with a casting time of a move action as a swift action. At 12th level, he can cast spells with a casting time of a standard action as a move action, and at 16th level, he can cast spells with a casting time of full-roound action as a standard action.

Armor Adaptation: At 8th level, the velocimancer can control his place in space and time well enough to add armor to the list of things he can handle. He gains proficiency with light armor, and suffers no spell failure chance, but any armor he wears becomes worn out after five encounters, and requires repair or replacement.

Speed Bonus: At 10th level, the velocimancer becomes better able to handle himself. He gains a 10ft. bonus to the speed of any mode of movement he has. At 18th level, this bonus increases to 20ft.

Spells List:
0-level: daze, guidance
1st: expeditious retreat, feather fall, floating disk, grease, hypnotism, jump, longstrider, opportune dodge, true strike
2nd: blur, cat's grace, daze monster, gust of wind, hypnotic pattern, shatter
3rd: blink, dispel magic, displacement, haste, hold person, slow
4th: dimension door, dimensional anchor
5th: hold monster, overland flight, permanency, teleport
6th: cat's grace (mass), contingency, dispel magic (greater), repulsion, shadow walk, transformation, trueseeing
7th: hold person (mass), instant summons, phase door, teleport (greater)
8th: dimensional lock, irresistable image, temporal stasis
9th: astral projection, freedom, foresight, gate, hold monster (mass), imprisonment, teleportation circle, time stop

<BR>

Ok, so some background info. This is my first ever post on these forums, I've been playing DnD since 3.x came out, I've played a lot of classes but not many casters. I designed this class for the Enigma Program, a shadowy part of the Marked, a mercenary arcane organization in my most recent Heroes of Battle-style campaign. To break it down, we've got stanard caster poorest bab, hd, and skills, the saves are taken off the archivist, and we've got full sorcerer-style spell progression. Limited spell list, auto-know each level, limited ability to add spells.
So what's the point of this class? It's a casting class designed by someone who loves rogues, loves strange concepts, and has very little experience with casters off of paper. It's got Dex as a casting ability, it's weirdly combat-oriented (I had the caster-leaning gish classes of Beguiler and Warmage in mind when I decided on full casting + combat oriented) and I have playtested it not at all. The one player in my campaign who rolled one up dropped out before I could see it's capabilities. It's spell list needs work. Some of those spells are from CAr and CoM.
Looking for feedback, suggested tweaks, critique from people who've actually played casters, any observed problems, or any comments. This is my first wholly original class idea (I daresay original because I haven't found anyone else who's been foolish enough to make dex a class's one and only needed ability.)
I'm especially open to balance concerns, but do know that if it seems high-powered, it's designed for more staying power: this class was designed for a campaign where I was feeling out Book of Nine Swords class powerlevel.
Oh, and one more thing - I hate dead levels. And I hate bonus caster feats. So I've got a lot more full levels (even if most of them are scaled class abilities introduced early on), but no bonus metamagic or item creation feats to compensate.

Rip away.

blue_fenix
2007-08-20, 05:16 PM
Pure awesome. Pick up spell compendium and choose its spells carefully, though. This class should definetly not get more spells known than a standard sorcerror (at 20th level) in order to balance against the extra class features. Also, just wondering, do move-action spells even exist? I can't think of any off the top of my head.

DraPrime
2007-08-20, 05:28 PM
[B]but any armor he wears becomes worn out after five encounters, and requires repair or replacement.

That seems a bit harsh.

blue_fenix
2007-08-20, 05:32 PM
any armor he wears becomes worn out after five encounters, and requires repair or replacement.That seems a bit harsh.

Dragonprime brings up a good point. This class should already have great AC (when not flat-footed) just from how high their dex will be pumped. Either give them light armor straight up or not at all. Most likely they'll get bracers of armor and ring of protection anyway.

Sir Conkey
2007-08-20, 05:50 PM
I agree that the 5 encounters is a bit harsh, but I would like to know more about any history of the class, cuz it seems like it might have evolved from sorcerrors who went through training for combat movement. The way I see one of these guys being played is like a magic rogue with ADD

Harold
2007-08-20, 06:13 PM
wait if it was magic armour would it still need repair if it didn't by level 8 you should have enough money for some + 1 armour.

Finerty
2007-08-20, 06:31 PM
I agree that the 5 encounters is a bit harsh, but I would like to know more about any history of the class, cuz it seems like it might have evolved from sorcerrors who went through training for combat movement. The way I see one of these guys being played is like a magic rogue with ADD

Regarding the history of this class, there is none: What you see presented sprang, pretty much fully-formed, from my mind. I guess the 'evolution' as you say it, is pretty spot-on, though - I've always played the highly maneuverable rogue, and it was the warmage that inspired me to create a caster-leaning gish class. While I want to avoid the "backstory-writes-itself" kind of problem by writing too much on how velocimancers are made, in my campagin, they were all experiments in a secretive training program to push humanoids as far into a corrupt (not evil, just not natural) form of magic (called speed magic) as possible.

The reason I put a five-encounter limit on the durability of the armour (I know, I know, we're getting a little towards WoW, be still thy beating heart), and perhaps it should be five combat encounters, is that I figured that moving at such high speeds has got to put wear and tear on something mundane that is covering your entire body. Ergo, magic items, including magic armour, should maybe be exempt. Thoughts on resolving this playability/realism issue? I really want this wear and tear element to come into play somehow. And really, anyone with ranks in craft (armorsmithing) should be able to help remedy this. I've always felt that skills should do more. Hence, craft as a class skill.

Jack_Simth
2007-08-20, 07:22 PM
Chronocountercasting: A velocimancer is an extremely twitchy individual. One of the first defenses that develops in a velocimancer is the ability to react with his primary weapon, his speed magic. Upon reaching 2nd level, if a velocmiancer is caught flat-footed, he can cast a spell with a casting time no longer than a move action as an immediate action, in response to an surprise attack made against him. The spell can affect the velocimancer himself only, but at 13th level, the velocimancer's future sense enables him to sense where the attack will come from, and the countercast spell can be cast on the attacker, immediately after the attack is resolved.
(Emphasis added)

This is technically useless - RAW, you can't use an immediate action when flat-footed. How about "immediately, but you cannot use a swift action on your next round" instead of "as an immediate action"?

knightsaline
2007-08-20, 07:43 PM
Hang on, according to your fluff, you said that things covering the body would disintergrate within 5 comabt rounds. does this mean that clothing would vanish within 5 combat rounds? I hope the Velocimancer has 18 CHA if this happens. XD.

I was hoping for a caster class that emulates the Velociraptor, swift and deadly. this is better.

Sir Conkey
2007-08-20, 08:13 PM
I was hoping for a caster class that emulates the Velociraptor, swift and deadly. this is better.

I clicked on it for the same reason, although it does give me an idea:amused:

The only reason I really wanted to know about the history thing was because I was kind of unsure what "progamming" meant, and who programed them. But your idea fits in nicely with pretty much any campaign, mainly because of the whole secrecy thing.

are there any particular alignments, I am thinking generally non-good and usually chaotic, not evil but to twitchy and spontanios to be lawful

Finerty
2007-08-21, 05:06 AM
Hang on, according to your fluff, you said that things covering the body would disintergrate within 5 comabt rounds. does this mean that clothing would vanish within 5 combat rounds? I hope the Velocimancer has 18 CHA if this happens. XD.

I was hoping for a caster class that emulates the Velociraptor, swift and deadly. this is better.

Hmmmmm. I was hoping that this class would end up being swift and deadly.
And it's not five combat rounds, but five combat encounters.


(Emphasis added)

This is technically useless - RAW, you can't use an immediate action when flat-footed. How about "immediately, but you cannot use a swift action on your next round" instead of "as an immediate action"?

Hmmmm... since it's been pointed out to me that there ARE no move-action casting-time spells, I think I will make it "any spell with a casting time of swift action", and let it be an exception to the RAW no-immediate actions while flat-footed. How's that sound?
Does anyone know if there ARE any move-action spells? Or if there ARE any swift spells that would be useful in this setting? Only swift haste and swift snake's swiftness (hmmm...), which... I notice, I haven't even put on the spell list. Any spell list addition ideas? (No homebrew spells, please, unless you've marked them as such. Just SpC, CAr, CoM, PHBI&II please)


are there any particular alignments, I am thinking generally non-good and usually chaotic, not evil but to twitchy and spontanios to be lawful

I wasn't planning on putting any alignment restriction in (I'm really not a fan of the current outlook on alignment, it's restrictions, it's 2-axes layout...) because I figure that good people might volunteer for it, or that there'd be good organizations in any campaign that might make double-0 velocimancers instead of twisted Project X velocimancers, like the norm. I'm not sure if this warrants a nongood alignment requirement and a good variant... Meh, I think not. Anyone else have alignment thoughts?

Caewil
2007-08-21, 07:09 AM
It seems to be a nice fluffy class. On the other hand, it can cast two spells per round at level twelve with a double-move. If it picks the right bonus spells it will be able to pull off some nice combos. Still, nothing a Wizard can't already do.

Triaxx
2007-08-21, 07:47 AM
The speed boost does apply to Overland flight? It says all forms of movement, but altering the entire spell is pretty impressive.

If you skim down the front page, there are 'Speedy Feats', that you might want to look into for this class. Some of them might be interesting for you.

Harold
2007-08-21, 08:56 AM
two spells per round I think thats just to good. but everything else seems to be fine.

GNUsNotUnix
2007-08-21, 11:13 AM
Casting out of Dex doesn't sit well with me. The DMG specifically advises against such classes, as I recall.

Fast casting sounds a bit broken. I mean, this class is basically superior to the wizard in every way; a do-nothing familiar and some scant bonus feats in exchange for extra actions, AC, and movement bonus? That's wonky.

One of the most limiting factors around spells is the fact that most take at least a standard action to cast; the multiple attacks of martial classes was meant (meant) to counter it. By giving a caster multiple spells per round without the costs to spell level of your typical Quickened Spell, you're allowing him to torch his opponents outright . . . twice. Wizards are already overpowered full casters; making a similar class that competes over them is beyond imbalanced.

Maybe you could make the class time based in another way? I like the idea of a chronomancerish caster, but maybe you could achieve this as a PrC with a special spell list, instead.

DracoDei
2007-08-21, 07:14 PM
GNUsNotUnix: Note that it doesn't get any offensive spells (except Dispel), with the minor exception of the bonus spells.

GNUsNotUnix
2007-08-21, 07:35 PM
My mistake! I must have misread "arcane and divine spells, drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list."

Yes, that's considerably better, then. I still hesitate at fast casting, however. True strike as a move action is scary powerful.

Jack_Simth
2007-08-21, 08:42 PM
Let's see...

Dex is too overloaded with this character.

A Wizard needs three stats: Intelligence (for casting), Con (for HP and Fort saves), and Dex (for AC, Reflex Saves, and Initiative). Other stats are gravy (Str really only adds carrying capacity, a 1st level spell deals with that; Wis only really grants will saves and the class gets a strong Will save; Cha doesn't help much).

A Sorcerer needs three stats: Charisma (for casting), Con (for HP and Fort saves), and Dex (for AC, Reflex Saves, and Initiative). Other stats are gravy (Str only grants carrying capacity, a 1st level spell deals with that; Wis only really grants will saves and the class gets a strong Will save, intelligence only grants skill points, and a Sorcerer has little need of skills).

A Velocimancer needs two stats: Dex (for casting, AC, Reflex Saves, and Initiative), and Con (for HP and Fort saves). Wis helps, as the class doesn't come with a good Will save, but it's not overly required. Other stats are gravy.

Tack on to that the fact that it's got a good spell list (heavy on defense, plus lots of party-favorite buffs and debuffs), the ability to cherry-pick other spells (if at an opportunity cost), and some of the brokenest spells in the game (Gate and Time Stop, I'm looking at you), and the eventual ability to get off two spells a round at no opportunity cost (no spell level adjustment, no feat cost to get a move action casting time), with the ability to pick up a third for two feats (Arcane Preparation and Quicken Spell) and a 12th level Velocomancer can pump out, oh, a Slow on all opponents, a Quickened True Strike, and, oh, perhaps an Enervation (Eclectic Learning - it's a 5th level spell).

Or just keep casting (as a move action) while maintaining a Telekenetic Grapple on an opposing caster (standard action to Concentrate). Deny the opposing spellcaster the ability to act AND zap, zap, zap away.

Edit:
Also, why in the world does this class have such "patient" skills such as Knoweledge, Profession, Gather Information, Craft, and Search (Spot and Listen are also iffy)? This guy's a jitterbug.

Finerty
2007-08-22, 02:43 AM
It seems to be a nice fluffy class. On the other hand, it can cast two spells per round at level twelve with a double-move. If it picks the right bonus spells it will be able to pull off some nice combos. Still, nothing a Wizard can't already do.

So... do you think that this concept doesn't merit its own class? Do you think it should be a PrC? Does it seem fun?


The speed boost does apply to Overland flight? It says all forms of movement, but altering the entire spell is pretty impressive.

I was thinking that it would alter ANY modes of movement... does this seem overpowered to people? What if it was just landspeed, like with barbarians, scouts, monks? What if it was only natural movement modes? What if it was any movement granted, including spells? What seems like the most fitting and/or balanced choice here? I'm thinking of adding gaseous form to the spell list, would that tip balance?

Thank you to those who mentioned balance issues, possible exploits. A quick bit of backstory - I had this class brewing in my head for awhile, and was tinkering with its design on a sticky note on my desktop when the Swiftblade PrC showed up on the wizards site as a web enhancement to Complete Mage. Imagine my consternation when I saw that there now existed a haste-based prestige class. It did not, however, capture the things I wanted to do with the class.
The fluff of this class is meant to be challenging to a player - much like how alignment restrictions in a class can either do the work for a player during character creation, or be a challenge (I enjoy conflicted paladins, open-minded monks and barbarians, disciplined bards... alright, I admit that I don't actually like ANY bards... it's been commented that my sin is pride), I was hoping that the armor wear and tear and the programming would push and inspire players to make rich, detailed characters.
Now, party role - what do you guys see the velocimancer doing? I really need help here, as I typically live in my own little world where I try to dream up excellent solo-act characters, not good team members (my rogues inevitable invest in feather token (whip)s, so that instead of relying on teammates, they can just toss 500gp at an opponent and watch him be flat-footed forever. Who needs teammates?). Ergo, I don't really know how well the velocimancer would play with others. Do you guys see scout? Primary caster? Buffer? What looks like a good niche to fill?
Another concern I've seen expressed is that Dex is too high a stat. Yes, I know I'm breaking kind of an obvious, cardinal sin here. That's kind of the point of the class, though. I wanted this to be a character class, not a PrC, with it's own, unthought-of spellcasting style, not just an interesting path to take an existing class. The velocimancer is not designed as a cool path for a sorcerer to take - it's meant to be a strange class all on it's own, with new opportunities and challenges. I am, however, all for making this a more streamlined, realistic class (although again, power level is designed to be comparable with Tome of Battle classes).


A Velocimancer needs two stats: Dex (for casting, AC, Reflex Saves, and Initiative), and Con (for HP and Fort saves). Wis helps, as the class doesn't come with a good Will save, but it's not overly required. Other stats are gravy.
Good point. I want to examine your critiques further, Jack - Wisdom seems like a strong possible third prime stat - but how to make it necessary? Well, if the class is used as a scout, then Wisdom will become more useful for the Spot and Listen checks (which, coincidentally, I included in the class skills because they looked like good "programmed" skills) and I've been thinking... maybe there should be a Will save penalty. I mean, being programmed's got to unhinge a caster somewhat. Perhaps they will have a weakened willsave response, to highlight one of the built-in flaws and increase the need for Wisdom. Part of me calls this a sketchy, roundabout way of dealing with the flaw, though, adding more class abilities to compensate for other faulty classs abilities. Any other thoughts?


Tack on to that the fact that it's got a good spell list (heavy on defense, plus lots of party-favorite buffs and debuffs), the ability to cherry-pick other spells (if at an opportunity cost), and some of the brokenest spells in the game (Gate and Time Stop, I'm looking at you), and the eventual ability to get off two spells a round at no opportunity cost (no spell level adjustment, no feat cost to get a move action casting time), with the ability to pick up a third for two feats (Arcane Preparation and Quicken Spell) and a 12th level Velocomancer can pump out, oh, a Slow on all opponents, a Quickened True Strike, and, oh, perhaps an Enervation (Eclectic Learning - it's a 5th level spell).

Or just keep casting (as a move action) while maintaining a Telekenetic Grapple on an opposing caster (standard action to Concentrate). Deny the opposing spellcaster the ability to act AND zap, zap, zap away.

Now, remember that whatever happens, I'm not just going to abandon this class. I want to smooth and fix it, not have it rated. Should I reduce the number of eclectic learnings? Throw in a couple of dead levels? Take out one of the fast-casting categories? Remove any of the class abilities (say, dodge) altogether? Also, fast casting and chronocountercasting only count with the class-granted spells. One of the reasons that a sorcerer plays so much better than it looks on paper is because eventually the wand means it can do what it does ALL day, and then some other stuff it can't do, ALL day. The velocimancer can cast wand/scroll/staff/whateveryoucastersuse spells, but not with its signature speed, so unless a character invest heavily in a lot of feats to up it's spells per day, this class should burn through even a sorcerer's complement of spells at a decent pace. It can do some mad dangerous combos in a very short span of time. But each part of each combo burns spells. This class has some combat-ability so that it should be viable to do other things with your actions than simply use up your spells per day in one encounter.

Any other thoughts? Any other sploits? Spell list suggestions? Additions, subtractions? Any suggested changes, radical or otherwise? Anyone want to playtest this thing?

Keledrath
2007-08-22, 08:04 AM
I say for the armor aruament, make it five encounters, +5 per enchantment level. Other than that, it looks really cool.

Lysander
2007-08-22, 11:07 AM
How about making STR a little more important for this class? Dex helps them go fast. But part of being fast and effective is being able to STOP, which might require STR checks.

For instance to cast a second spell in a round maybe require a STR check in order to switch to a different set of gestures.

Or if they attempt fast casting they might have to have a STR check to stop casting that spell...if they fail they're forced to cast the same spell again next round, and over until they succeed on a strength check or run out of spells in that level.

Weakening armor automatically 5 encounters is a little harsh. How about, at the end of every combat encounter, making them roll 1d20 for every speed themed class ability they use. Each time they roll a 1 it uses up one of their five. If they go into six or higher their armor will not break right away, but instantly the next time it blocks an attack.

Metis
2007-08-22, 11:17 AM
I'm not sure how well this would work, but...

Considering the way he must learn to cast spells, and considering the other features of the class, I'd suggest that you add in some kind of thing that requires him to have a certain dex level for his class abilities, or maybe some kind of check. Something that makes Dexterity necessary besides spells.

Then, after that, you switch out the spellcasting stat from Dexterity to Wisdom. Call that the programming part, and the rest sort of natural speed.

Finerty
2007-08-22, 01:02 PM
I say for the armor aruament, make it five encounters, +5 per enchantment level. Other than that, it looks really cool.
Interesting. Anyone got any other thoughts on this matter?

Regarding the armor check, strength check, dex check ideas - I'm thinking about how to streamline the class now. Because these are all interesting sugestions, but they kind of mess with the playability of the class. I don't know that any player rolling up a velocimancer would even bother using the armor breakage rules I supplied, much less other checks and balances I tacked on - this seems like a lot of extra rolling. Could you guys give me perhaps a more concrete application regarding "dex score for class abilities"? I don't see how that would help, just aggravate an overpowered problem.


Considering the way he must learn to cast spells, and considering the other features of the class, I'd suggest that you add in some kind of thing that requires him to have a certain dex level for his class abilities, or maybe some kind of check. Something that makes Dexterity necessary besides spells.

Then, after that, you switch out the spellcasting stat from Dexterity to Wisdom. Call that the programming part, and the rest sort of natural speed.

I see some merit in this, but the class is built around the idea of using a nonstandard spellcasting ability. I'd really like to keep Dex as, if nothing else, the spellcasting ability. Now maybe if we want to introduce another stat that's crucial to spellcasting, we can change the spell list from automatically knowing all of the spells at each level to needing Wis or Int or even Cha to unlock new spells each level. But I really want for his spellcasting ability, fluff-wise, to come from his speed. His programming can be a head thing, cool, but I want to maintain the idea of magic coming from speed and time and space.

Finerty
2007-08-24, 02:58 AM
Table X-Treme: The Velocimancer
{table]Class Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9
1st|+0|+0|+2|+0|Velocimancer Programming|5|3
2nd|+1|+0|+3|+0|Dash|6|4
3rd|+1|+1|+3|+1|Eclectic Learning|6|5
4th|+2|+1|+4|+1|Dodge +1|6|6|3
5th|+2|+1|+4|+1|Chronocountercasting (Defensive)|6|6|4
6th|+3|+2|+5|+2||6|6|5|3
7th|+3|+2|+5|+2|Future Sense +1, Fast casting (move-swift)|6|6|6|4
8th|+4|+2|+6|+2|Armor Adaptation|6|6|5|3
9th|+4|+3|+6|+3|Dodge +2|6|6|6|6|6|4
10th|+5|+3|+7|+3|Fast Movement +10ft.|6|6|6|6|5|3
11th|+5|+3|+7|+3|Eclectic Learning|6|6|6|6|6|4
12th|+6/+1|+4|+8|+4|Fast casting (standard-move)|6|6|6|6|6|5|3
13th|+6/+1|+4|+8|+4|Chronocountercasting (Offensive)|6|6|6|6|6|6|4
14th|+7/+2|+4|+9|+4|Dodge +3|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3
15th|+7/+2|+5|+9|+5||6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4
16th|+8/+3|+5|+10|+5|Fast casting (Full-round-standard)|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3
17th|+8/+3|+5|+10|+5|Future Sense +2|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4
18th|+9/+4|+6|+11|+6|Fast Movement +20ft.|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3
19th|+9/+4|+6|+11|+6|Eclectic Learning|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4
20th|+10/+5|+6|+12|+6|Dodge +4|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5
[/table]

Hit Dice: d4
Class Skills (2 + Int modifier per level): Bluff, Craft, Gather Information, Jump, Knowledge (all skills, taken individually), Listen, Profession, Search, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Velocimancers are proficient with all simple weapons, as well as the rapier, whip, and the spiked chain. They are proficient with light shields, but are not proficient with any armor.

Spellcasting: A velocimancer casts a number of arcane and divine spells, drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A velocimancer starts play knowing all 0-level spells on his class list and a number of 1st-level spells equal to his Wisdom modifier (minimum 1). At each level, the velocimancer unlocks (in essence, learns) a number of spells equal to his Wisdom modifier (minimum one new spell per level). To unlock, learn (see Eclectic Learning, below) or cast a spell, a velocimancer must have a Dexterity score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a velocimancer's spell is 10 + the spell level + the velocimancer's Dex modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a velocimancer can cast only a certain number of spells of each level per day. His base daily allotment is given in Table X-Treme: The Velocimancer. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Dexterity score (see Table 1-1 on page 8 of the Player's Handbook). The velocimancer casts his spells spontaneously, and need not decide ahead of time which spells he will cast that day.
Velocimancer Programming: Velocimancers are not born, nor are they trained - They are made. Speed magic is not a natural extension of the magical forces that govern the world, but rather an artifice designed to optimize a soldier's spellcasting power, at the expense of the soldier's life force. This programming is partially subconscious, allowing the velocimancer to use his spellcasting powers without study, but it also has its detrimental side-effects. Concentration is dificult for the jittery velocimancer, and is therefore (despite being a crucial skill), not a class skill. In addition, the velocimancer cannot use armor, even at penalty: while wearing any armor at all, the velocimancer's spellcasting powers are entirely suppressed by the inhibiting nature of the armor, until he adjusts to his powers (see Armor Adaptation below). One beneficial quirk of his programming is that he can replace the verbal component of any spell he knows with a somatic component, and therefore is unaffected by silence (the typical velocimancer, in fact, enjoys silence, which is an aspect of stillness, something he never gets).

Dash: At 2nd level, a velocimancer gains Dash as a bonus feat.

Eclectic Learning: At 3rd, 11th, and 19th level, you can choose to add a new spell to your list that is not within your Velocimancer Programming. The spell must be a sorcerer/wizard spell, but it can be from any school. The spell is treated as being one level higher than normal (for example, invisibility, a 2nd-level sorcerer/wizard spell, would be treated as a 3rd-level velocimancer spell for you). You must be capable of casting spells of the new spell's adjusted level - for instance, you can't choose a 3rd-level sorcerer/wizard spell at 6th level, because the spell is treated as a 4th-level spell for you.

Dodge: A velocimancer's reflexes allow him to constantly stay on the balls of his toes. At 4th level, he gains a dodge bonus to AC as indicated on Table X-Treme: The Velocimancer. Unlike with the Dodge feat, this dodge bonus applies against all attackers. If the velocimancer is caught flat-footed, this bonus does not apply to his AC. This bonus improves to +2 at 9th level, +3 at 14th level, and +4 at 20th level.

Chronocountercasting: A velocimancer is an extremely twitchy individual. One of the first defenses that develops in a velocimancer is the ability to react with his primary weapon, his speed magic. Upon reaching 2nd level, if a velocmiancer is caught flat-footed, he can cast a spell with a casting time no longer than a move action as an immediate action, in response to an surprise attack made against him. The spell can affect the velocimancer himself only, but at 13th level, the velocimancer's future sense enables him to sense where the attack will come from, and the countercast spell can be cast on the attacker, immediately after the attack is resolved.

Future Sense: As the velocimancer gets more in touch with his programming, he becomes able to control his future sense, the ability to sense the next twist in the timestream. He gains an insight bonus on initiative as indicated on Table X-Treme: The Velocimancer.

Fast Casting: One of the most potent abilities that a velocimancer has is the ability to speed up the casting of his speed magic. At 7th level, he can cast spells with a casting time of a move action as a swift action. At 12th level, he can cast spells with a casting time of a standard action as a move action, and at 16th level, he can cast spells with a casting time of full-roound action as a standard action.

Armor Adaptation: At 8th level, the velocimancer can control his place in space and time well enough to add armor to the list of things he can handle. He gains proficiency with light armor, and suffers no spell failure chance, but any armor he wears becomes worn out after five encounters, and requires repair (a Craft (armorsmithing) check, DC 10 + any enhancement bonus on the armor).

Fast Movement: At 10th level, the velocimancer becomes better able to handle himself. He gains a 10ft. bonus to the move speed. At 18th level, this bonus increases to 20ft.

Spells List:
0-level: daze, guidance, arcane mark
1st: expeditious retreat, feather fall, floating disk, grease, hypnotism, jump, longstrider, opportune dodge, true strike
2nd: blur, cat's grace, daze monster, gust of wind, hypnotic pattern, shatter
3rd: blink, dispel magic, displacement, haste, hold person, slow
4th: dimension door, dimensional anchor, freedom of movement
5th: hold monster, overland flight, permanency, teleport
6th: cat's grace (mass), contingency, dispel magic (greater), repulsion, shadow walk, transformation, trueseeing
7th: hold person (mass), instant summons, phase door, teleport (greater)
8th: dimensional lock, irresistable image, temporal stasis
9th: astral projection, freedom, foresight, gate, hold monster (mass), imprisonment, teleportation circle, time stop
_______________________

Just a couple of edits to the class. I'm really not sure about these, so I'm not altering the first draft of the class just yet. Please edit and critique honestly. I need all the help I can get making this into a good, balanced, fun class. All comments welcome.

skywalker
2007-09-15, 10:53 AM
It seems kind of unusual to have bonus spells known based off of wisdom. Your casting stat is dexterity(which I think is a pretty interesting idea, unorthodox, but I don't really care), and you have such a limited spell list that I think auto-knowing the entire list is fine. You wind up knowing fewer spells at every level than a beguiler, which is generally regarded as a good class, but not an out-and-out broken class. You can never learn a 9th level spell that isn't on your list, which I think is a good thing. However, a couple of questions about the spell list:

Why is imprisonment on the list? It doesn't seem to fit with the flavor of the class(which is about movement and time-manipulation. Also, why is gate on the list? I'm just trying to lower the number of 9th level spells a little bit(taking gate off helps your level of broken-ness a lot).

Second, why is freedom of movement missing? I know it's not a sorcerer/wizard spell, but there IS an arcane version(with the bard) and it seems like an integral part of the class.

Third, Instant Summons can only be used after you have cast arcane mark on the item to be summoned. The velocimancer does not have arcane mark as a spell.

Finally, permanency also doesn't seem to fit. First, are there any spells on the velocimancer's spell list that can be made permanent? Second, these guys move so fast they eat their own armor. Permanency seems to be the antithesis of such a fast moving class.

These are just my thoughts on the spell list, but overall, the thing looks pretty good. I like it. I don't think the crazed optimizers are gonna play it, but I don't think it's a masochist class either. I think it's really well made, and if I could convince a DM to let me play one(probably not, since it's not been play tested) I'd give it a shot. They seem really interesting to play.

Finerty
2007-09-16, 02:18 AM
Thanks for your feedback. Note to anyone swooping in on the late post, this isn't threadomancy, it's a PEACH thread, I always appreciate commentary on this concept.

To address some spell choices - gate and imprisonment fit in with my idea of time and space. Imprisonment = suspended animation. It's one of the few offensive spells that my class has, and I think it disables an enemy in the exact same way that the Velocimancer usually empowers himself. Instead of speeding himself up, he can stop his enemy and freeze him. Gate is on there because it represents time and space and movement... into the planar realms. Higher-level Velocimancers, I envision, race through the planescape.
Arcane mark, thank you. Freedom of movement, thank you. Always looking for time/space -related spells, and having played very few casters, I appreciate contributions from those who're more familiar with the system and its spells lists. I'm on the fence with permanency- that's mostly there for flavour, believe it or not. Even though the class is about speed, I imagine that some velocimancers would want to find something or create some enduring spell effects. Something that would last. Or not.

Regarding wisdom as the learning stat - I don't know. Anyone else have thoughts?