Aspect of the Moon and Long Rests

[LeonBH]

The CoffeeLock buzz has passed, and here it is, returning. Returning, but nerfed.

According to Jeremy Crawford, Aspect of the Moon does not remove the need for long rests (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/938568519385456641).

This means that the CoffeeLock with Aspect of the Moon will still be rolling a Con save of increasing difficulty every 24 hours as long as they do not take a long rest. It seems they just don't sleep and that's it.

The relevant optional rule (XgtE 78): "Whenever you end a 24-hour period without finishing a long rest, you must succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion."

[Naanomi]

Which is unfortunate really... outside of the coffeelock (which can still be done, but only at much higher level now); Aspect of the Moon is a mostly fluff ability anyways. The ability to do ‘light activity’ instead of useful things 6 hours a night just isn’t worth an invocation slot (to me)

[Aett_Thorn]

Which is unfortunate really... outside of the coffeelock (which can still be done, but only at much higher level now); Aspect of the Moon is a mostly fluff ability anyways. The ability to do ‘light activity’ instead of useful things 6 hours a night just isn’t worth an invocation slot (to me)

While I agree to an extent, it does allow the Warlock to always be the one on watch. And that means that the Warlock can get up to all sorts of shenanigans while the other players sleep. Tie their shoelaces together, stick their hands in warm water, barter their souls on their behalf for even more power, swap all of their stuff around. You know, typical hijinks.

[Sigreid]

Which is unfortunate really... outside of the coffeelock (which can still be done, but only at much higher level now); Aspect of the Moon is a mostly fluff ability anyways. The ability to do ‘light activity’ instead of useful things 6 hours a night just isn’t worth an invocation slot (to me)

Yeah, but there are quite a few invocations that facilitate a concept but are of questionable practical value.

[Naanomi]

Yeah, but there are quite a few invocations that facilitate a concept but are of questionable practical value.
While several are marginal utility at best, I can’t think of another besides Aspect of the Moon that you are only paying for flavor essentially (I guess unless sleep-inducing magic is a big problem in the campaign).

Eyes of the Runekeeper, Gaze of Two Minds, and Voice of the Chain Master lack combat uses but all have niches in exploration/social stuff. Some of the spells you can get are pretty weak, but not weaker than ‘change the fluff on your mandatory rests’

[Sigreid]

While several are marginal utility at best, I can’t think of another besides Aspect of the Moon that you are only paying for flavor essentially (I guess unless sleep-inducing magic is a big problem in the campaign).

Eyes of the Runekeeper, Gaze of Two Minds, and Voice of the Chain Master lack combat uses but all have niches in exploration/social stuff. Some of the spells you can get are pretty weak, but not weaker than ‘change the fluff on your mandatory rests’

I was thinking more of the ones where you spend an invocation to buy one casting of a spell that is really a special use case.

[Naanomi]

I was thinking more of the ones where you spend an invocation to buy one casting of a spell that is really a special use case.
Which spell were you thinking of? I mean... Compulsion and Bane are nothing to write home about (compared to alternatives); but they are not ‘fluff only’ spells (and... what concept do they fit anyways?)

[Sigreid]

Which spell were you thinking of? I mean... Compulsion and Bane are nothing to write home about (compared to alternatives); but they are not ‘fluff only’ spells (and... what concept do they fit anyways?)

Not got the book in front of me but if I recall you can give up one of your at will magic picks for a daily casting of banish or something like that. I think it's a bad trade.

[Naanomi]

Not got the book in front of me but if I recall you can give up one of your at will magic picks for a daily casting of banish or something like that. I think it's a bad trade.
Banish is a great spell, but already in the warlock spell list.

Compulsion, Confusion, Hold Monster, Conjure Elemental, Slow, Polymorph, Bane... Freedom of Movement...

And those are weak enough that very few people take them already, so making things with even less mechanical effect in the name of flavor isn’t doing it for me. Which is a shame, things like ‘never sleeping’ are often the kind of things I waste character options on a lot of the time in various games

Kind of makes Warforged a bit weird too... unrelenting magic soldiers? Nope, need that nightly ‘power save mode’

[UrielAwakened]

I mean I was never going to play a Coffeelock anyway, or even facilitate one in a game I ran, but it's still one more thing that is now just straight-up useless fluff.

Could they not have just put a note that says, "This does not eliminate your need to take long rests." with the invocation itself? How hard would that have been? Because the way its written in the book it really reads like there should be some benefit to it.

[Naanomi]

Would some half-ground like ‘you don’t need to sleep, and you can take a long rest in the time of a short rest, use this ability once only 24 hours’ break anything?

And in any case coffeelock lives as soon as you can cast Greater Restoration, albeit at 100g every few days

[Mikal]

Well that's stupid. Oh well, at least he answered it. Guess infinite coffeelocks will need to be Divine Souls for Greater Restoration then!

[Sigreid]

Would some half-ground like ‘you don’t need to sleep, and you can take a long rest in the time of a short rest, use this ability once only 24 hours’ break anything?

And in any case coffeelock lives as soon as you can cast Greater Restoration, albeit at 100g every few days

If I were going to change it I would probably say you don't need sleep, food or water. You gain exhaustion for forgoing long rests at half the normal rate.

[LeonBH]

Would some half-ground like ‘you don’t need to sleep, and you can take a long rest in the time of a short rest, use this ability once only 24 hours’ break anything?

And in any case coffeelock lives as soon as you can cast Greater Restoration, albeit at 100g every few days

Really, the CoffeeLock can live earlier by risking one DC 10 Con save. It's disadvantage to ability checks, but they are proficient in the save, and depending on their subclass, it's actually not that big a risk. But they won't have infinitely many spell slots. They would just be a stronger Sorlock.

And yes, that half ground will allow a full spellcaster to regain their highest level spells in 1 hour. CoffeeLocks won't use it, but everyone else will like it.


Well that's stupid. Oh well, at least he answered it.

The RAW is the RAW. The RAI is the RAI.


If I were going to change it I would probably say you don't need sleep, food or water. You gain exhaustion for forgoing long rests at half the normal rate.

Seems to still disable CoffeeLocks though.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I'm glad he engages with people, and I recognize that he's one of the lead designers, but Twitter is the least authoritative source I can possibly imagine.

[Mikal]

I'm glad he engages with people, and I recognize that he's one of the lead designers, but Twitter is the least authoritative source I can possibly imagine.

Twitter isn't the source, Crawford is the source. Twitter is just the medium. While not "official" official, it does show the intent of the rules together (until and unless he or the staff change their minds).

[LeonBH]

I'm glad he engages with people, and I recognize that he's one of the lead designers, but Twitter is the least authoritative source I can possibly imagine.

It's officially backed up though, his tweets are authoritative, at least for learning the RAI (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/97294/why-do-crawfords-tweets-seem-to-be-treated-on-par-with-the-actual-rules).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Sigh. So much for that invocation. Now it's gone from "niche" to "basically useless." In fact, nearly totally useless, because you could already long rest without sleeping.

A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours. If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity—at least 1 hour of walking, fighting, casting spells, or similar adventuring activity—the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it.
Emphasis mine.

Not to mention that the Xanathar's rule becomes totally incompatible with the gritty rests variant, since that only lets you long rest once/week.

[Sigreid]

Really, the CoffeeLock can live earlier by risking one DC 10 Con save. It's disadvantage to ability checks, but they are proficient in the save, and depending on their subclass, it's actually not that big a risk. But they won't have infinitely many spell slots. They would just be a stronger Sorlock.

And yes, that half ground will allow a full spellcaster to regain their highest level spells in 1 hour. CoffeeLocks won't use it, but everyone else will like it.



The RAW is the RAW. The RAI is the RAI.



Seems to still disable CoffeeLocks though.

I'm neutral on coffeelocks. I was considering the value of the feat overall and not whether it would specifically facilitate a particular build. I wouldn't bother to coffee lock, but I don't mind if others di.

[Mikal]

Sigh. So much for that invocation. Now it's gone from "niche" to "basically useless." In fact, nearly totally useless, because you could already long rest without sleeping.

Emphasis mine.

Not to mention that the Xanathar's rule becomes totally incompatible with the gritty rests variant, since that only lets you long rest once/week.

Well they're both variant/optional rules, so that isn't a big deal. You use one or the other, or modify either/or.

[Easy_Lee]

This kind of ruling is bad for the game, but not because of the coffeelock. Individual DMs already maintain balance at their own tables. Rather, it's a non-intuitive and restricting ruling.

If you don't need to sleep, you shouldn't need to take eight hours of rest every day. That's the way I read it and, I suspect, that's the way almost everyone read it.

Further, not needing to take long rests opens up all sorts of possibilities, most of which have nothing to do with the coffeelock. Depending on the character and campaign, there's a lot of untapped potential there.

Luckily, Crawford's RAI has next to no impact on how the game is actually played, in my experience.

[Aett_Thorn]

Sigh. So much for that invocation. Now it's gone from "niche" to "basically useless." In fact, nearly totally useless, because you could already long rest without sleeping.

Emphasis mine.

Not to mention that the Xanathar's rule becomes totally incompatible with the gritty rests variant, since that only lets you long rest once/week.

Well, I think that the quote you provide means that you need to sleep for at least 6 of the hours. Basically, you can sleep for eight hours, or you can do sleep for six and do light activity for two.

[LeonBH]

Sigh. So much for that invocation. Now it's gone from "niche" to "basically useless." In fact, nearly totally useless, because you could already long rest without sleeping.

Emphasis mine.

Not to mention that the Xanathar's rule becomes totally incompatible with the gritty rests variant, since that only lets you long rest once/week.

No, you need 6 hours of sleep at a minimum. Check the 2nd page of the PHB Errata (http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/PH-Errata.pdf).

The long rest rule was supposed to say, you need 8 hours of downtime of which you need to either sleep or do light activity, but the light activity can only be 2 hours at most. The implication was you needed to sleep for 6 hours. I believe they clarified this by explicitly saying you need 6 hours of sleep as part of a long rest now.

[Zene]

The CoffeeLock buzz has passed, and here it is, returning. Returning, but nerfed.

According to Jeremy Crawford, Aspect of the Moon does not remove the need for long rests (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/938568519385456641)"

Vindication!

This aligns with my original reading of the Aspect of the Moon text. (I was basically shouted down in the first xge coffeelock thread for suggesting it)

Thank you for sharing. So glad JC cleared this up, though to be honest I was hoping he’d come down the other way on it.

[Mikal]

Vindication!

This aligns with my original reading of the Aspect of the Moon text. (I was basically shouted down in the first xge coffeelock thread for suggesting it)

Thank you for sharing. So glad JC cleared this up, though to be honest I was hoping he’d come down the other way on it.

Eh. The evidence seemed strong the other way, RAW. *shrug* It happens.

[LeonBH]

Eh. The evidence seemed strong the other way, RAW. *shrug* It happens.

TBH, the evidence was strongly pointing to the need for a Con save every 24 hours without a long rest, regardless of AotM.


Further, not needing to take long rests opens up all sorts of possibilities, most of which have nothing to do with the coffeelock. Depending on the character and campaign, there's a lot of untapped potential there.

Out of curiosity, what non-CoffeeLock possibilities had you come up with?

[Mikal]

TBH, the evidence was strongly pointing to the need for a Con save every 24 hours without a long rest, regardless of AotM.

That's why there were so many threads with people arguing about it then, because the evidence was so conclusive that we had hundreds of posts going back and forth between various parties about it.

[LeonBH]

That's why there were so many threads with people arguing about it then, because the evidence was so conclusive that we had hundreds of posts going back and forth between various parties about it.

You literally just said the evidence seemed to point strongly to the other side. I repeated your words to you. Then let me repeat them back to you again, now.

If the evidence was strong for the other side, why were there so many threads with people arguing about it then?

But whatever. AotM does not obsolete long rests, and the world makes sense again. :smallsmile:

[Mikal]

You literally just said the evidence seemed to point strongly to the other side. I repeated your words to you. Then let me repeat them back to you again, now.

If the evidence was strong for the other side, why were there so many threads with people arguing about it then?

But whatever. AotM does not obsolete long rests, and the world makes sense again. :smallsmile:

I was trying to agree with you, in that the evidence pointed in either direction, depending on how you looked at it. I disagreed with how you looked at it, but at least until they change their mind, the way you were looking at it was the valid one.

As for the world making sense... when has it ever done that?

[LeonBH]

As for the world making sense... when has it ever done that?

Fair point.

[Mikal]

Fair point.

Either way, Coffeelock is just more rigid in its build now for self sufficiency- It needs to be high enough level and able to cast Greater Restoration on itself, so that means Divine Soul and 9 levels of Sorcerer or 3 levels in Sorcerer and 9 levels in a class that gives you 5th level casting and G.R. (Bard I guess.)

That or they walk on the wild side for a few days and make Con checks before forcing themselves to rest.

Of course, that also means Aspect of the Moon is actually completely superfluous for the Coffeelock. Since you're going to need to perform a Long Rest eventually (or G.R. yourself past the exhaustion whenever you fail the save), AotM is now useless for you. Which means Bladepact and Chainpact can both benefit, if using the exhaustion rules, and if you're wanting to unleash the full potency of your Coffeelock. Elven versions can just be considered decaf.

[Naanomi]

Out of curiosity, what non-CoffeeLock possibilities had you come up with?
That depends a lot on how stringent your GM is about what counts as light activity...
-active guard duty, setting up traps, searching for stealthing spies instead of relying on passive perception, etc
-light scouting
-searching safe areas of the dungeon for secret doors you missed
-attempting to solve the puzzle your party could solve by trial an error all night
-item crafting

But, as someone with a Tome filled with scry magic I can ritually cast, and a few scrying spells on my own spell list, I’d guess I’d use my ‘long-rest’ times for that.

Guess I should just be an Elven warlock, since they get half-time long rests for Trancing when my ‘no sleep at all’ ability doesn’t even do that

[Tanarii]

The relevant optional rule (XgtE 78): "Whenever you end a 24-hour period without finishing a long rest, you must succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion."
Because of course the rule that specifically says it is about sleep deprivation has nothing to do with actually needing to sleep. :smallconfused:

[Mikal]

Because of course the rule that specifically says it is about sleep deprivation has nothing to do with actually needing to sleep. :smallconfused:

*shrug*, like I said so many times, that's what makes sense when reading it, but JC decided the other way. If that's how it rolls, that's how it rolls (until contradicted sometime in the future).

[LeonBH]

Because of course the rule that specifically says it is about sleep deprivation has nothing to do with actually needing to sleep. :smallconfused:

You're misrepresenting it, there. You typically need to sleep when taking a long rest, so for literally everyone else but the AotM Warlock (and Elves), taking a long rest has everything to do with sleep, and therefore skipping a long rest has everything to do with sleep deprivation.

AotM creates a specific rule that divorces sleep from long rests, and therefore it divorces long rests from sleep deprivation. That doesn't mean the rule on sleep deprivation now no longer has anything to do with sleeping.

[XmonkTad]

*sigh* that does pretty much torp a coffeelock that tries to gain a week or two worth of spell slots before greater restoration becomes available.

Still, this makes AtoM a super weak invocation, since it basically only let's you spend the long-rest milling about, yet preserves the need for the rest. I would actually put eyes of the rune keeper above this in terms of flavor/power, but that's just me. I don't understand why AotM has a prerequisite, there doesn't seem to be a reason.

I would probably stick with the original conception of the Coffee Drow where you would trance for 4 hours, (resetting everything with a long rest) and then just use remaining 4 hours of the night chaining short rests together to give you a little extra power throughout the day. 1 level of exhaustion isn't a killer, so you could probably just push through nights till you get your first level of exhaustion, have a normal adventuring day, then sleep the exhaustion off (in 4 hours thanks to elf).

[Grod_The_Giant]

No, you need 6 hours of sleep at a minimum. Check the 2nd page of the PHB Errata (http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/PH-Errata.pdf).

The long rest rule was supposed to say, you need 8 hours of downtime of which you need to either sleep or do light activity, but the light activity can only be 2 hours at most. The implication was you needed to sleep for 6 hours. I believe they clarified this by explicitly saying you need 6 hours of sleep as part of a long rest now.
Ah. Not entirely useless, then, but still pretty damn bad.

[Tanarii]

You're misrepresenting it, there. You typically need to sleep when taking a long rest, so for literally everyone else but the AotM Warlock (and Elves), taking a long rest has everything to do with sleep, and therefore skipping a long rest has everything to do with sleep deprivation.
BS. I am not misrepresenting anything. The XtGE rule specifically says, and I quote, "If you want to account for the effects of sleep deprivation on characters and creatures, use these rules".

Edit: sorry, is your argument that AotM lets you not sleep during Long Rest, but doesn't stop sleep deprivation? Because that's just stupid. Because that just makes AotM as completely pointless as Elf Trance used to be. Especially since they just changed elf Trance for the exact opposite reason.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

It's officially backed up though, his tweets are authoritative, at least for learning the RAI (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/97294/why-do-crawfords-tweets-seem-to-be-treated-on-par-with-the-actual-rules).

That... is depressing as hell.

Ah well. It's not that different from the 3E Sage Advice and FAQ stuff, except that now I have an additional so-described authoritative source to ignore. If it's printed in a book or the errata to a book, fine. I'm still not having official rulings made on a personal twitter account.

[LeonBH]

BS. I am not misrepresenting anything. The XtGE rule specifically says, and I quote, "If you want to account for the effects of sleep deprivation on characters and creatures, use these rules".

It's not BS because you can see that JC clarifies that AotM does not let you skip a long rest. You should update your belief to be in line with the clarified rules now, because there's really no sense in debating on the side of the wrong answer.

You're misrepresenting something. You typically need to sleep when taking a long rest, taking a long rest has everything to do with sleep, and therefore skipping a long rest has everything to do with sleep deprivation.

AotM creates a specific rule that opposes the general rule. That doesn't invalidate the general rule for the general case.


Edit: sorry, is your argument that AotM lets you not sleep during Long Rest, but doesn't stop sleep deprivation? Because that's just stupid. Because that just makes AotM as completely pointless as Elf Trance used to be. Especially since they just changed elf Trance for the exact opposite reason.

No, I'm not arguing at all. I'm telling you that AotM does not let you skip a long rest.


That... is depressing as hell.

Ah well. It's not that different from the 3E Sage Advice and FAQ stuff, except that now I have an additional so-described authoritative source to ignore. If it's printed in a book or the errata to a book, fine. I'm still not having official rulings made on a personal twitter account.

I understand the feeling. But it may be worth pointing out, the Twitter account is "official." He doesn't post non-WotC stuff on that account.

[Tanarii]

there's really no sense in debating on the side of the wrong answer.
I appreciate JCs tweets for clarification in his belief and insight into the intent of the rule, but please don't try to represent them as "the right answer".



No, I'm not arguing at all. I'm telling you that AotM does not let you skip a long rest.Right. Because any character can skip a long rest. They just don't get back any resources.

Not only that, they can do it without penalty, unless the DM implements an optional rule.

[LeonBH]

I appreciate JCs tweets for clarification in his belief and insight into the intent of the rule, but please don't try to represent them as "the right answer".

Right. Because any character can skip a long rest.

Not only that, they can do it without penalty, unless the DM implements an optional rule.

You're free to ignore the evidence. :smallsmile:

And I agree it's an optional rule. No debate there.

[Tanarii]

You're free to ignore the evidence. :smallsmile:
And the evidence is contained in the optional rule. It applies to sleep deprivation.

Unless you are arguing AotM doesn't prevent sleep deprivation, the optional rule would not apply.

[LeonBH]

And the evidence is contained in the optional rule. It applies to sleep deprivation.

Unless you are arguing AotM doesn't prevent sleep deprivation, the optional rule would not apply.

Once again, you are free to ignore the evidence. :smallsmile:

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I understand the feeling. But it may be worth pointing out, the Twitter account is "official." He doesn't post non-WotC stuff on that account.

It's also not a corporate account run by the company, like an @SageAdvice account (amusingly, @SageAdviceDnD is entirely unofficial and 3rd party). Either way, using a medium as fleeting as Twitter for rules clarifications is absurd unless they intend to codify this stuff as an errata document.

[Elminster298]

And the evidence is contained in the optional rule. It applies to sleep deprivation.

Unless you are arguing AotM doesn't prevent sleep deprivation, the optional rule would not apply.

Aotm does not prevent you from getting physically and mentally tired. You no longer need sleep but you still need to rest your body and mind to prevent exhaustion. This just simply makes sense in every way.

[rbstr]

It's also not a corporate account run by the company, like an @SageAdvice account (amusingly, @SageAdviceDnD is entirely unofficial and 3rd party). Either way, using a medium as fleeting as Twitter for rules clarifications is absurd unless they intend to codify this stuff as an errata document.

They do...they've got both Errata and Sage Advice compendium PDFs.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Aotm does not prevent you from getting physically and mentally tired. You no longer need sleep but you still need to rest your body and mind to prevent exhaustion. This just simply makes sense in every way.
Makes sense in every way except "making the ability worthwhile," which it absolutely does not. As it currently stands, all it does is, maaaaaybe, let you stand watch all night. That's pathetic as a ribbon ability, much less a limited opportunity choice that's competing with things like Agonizing Blast and Disguise Self at will.

[Mikal]

Makes sense in every way except "making the ability worthwhile," which it absolutely does not. As it currently stands, all it does is, maaaaaybe, let you stand watch all night. That's pathetic as a ribbon ability, much less a limited opportunity choice that's competing with things like Agonizing Blast and Disguise Self at will.

Yup. AotM is pretty much neutered to uselessness, if using the exhaustion optional rule. The only benefit it provides is making you immune to the sleep spell... which you'll be around level 4-5 anyway, depending on how your HP rolls go.
In other words, welcome back trap options! We missed you (no we didn't)!

[Easy_Lee]

Out of curiosity, what non-CoffeeLock possibilities had you come up with?

Tomelock + Assassin Rogue: assassin who can see in the dark, never needs to sleep, and can stalk his target indefinitely. Also gains some utility from Tomelock and warlock spells (ex: darkness).

Hex Tomelock X + Paladin 6: fights evil all day and all night, can cast curative paladin spells or use smites with his short rest slots. Still wants long rests to restore his slots, but doesn't technically need them, just an hour of rest every now and again.

Regular Sorlock - Divine Soul: use long rest time to take short rests, restore sorcerer long rest slots, and maintain a small number of zombies. Similar to a Necromancer but who trades higher level spell slots and spell variety for heals, invocations, and stronger at-will damage.

The possibilities are endless and, mostly, flavorful.

[RedMage125]

Can't coffeelock still work with an elf?

Trance for 4 hours (counts as long rest with new errata), take 4 short rests to trade in warlock slots for Sorc points? You still get a long rest every day, but you can start each day with 4 short rests worth of sorcery points.

I feel like I'm forgetting something.

[Avonar]

Can't coffeelock still work with an elf?

Trance for 4 hours (counts as long rest with new errata), take 4 short rests to trade in warlock slots for Sorc points? You still get a long rest every day, but you can start each day with 4 short rests worth of sorcery points.

I feel like I'm forgetting something.

The elf Trance means you only need 4 hours of meditating. It does NOT change the 8 hour long rest requirement. Just means you have an extra 2 hours during a long rest that you can do stuff.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Can't coffeelock still work with an elf?

Trance for 4 hours (counts as long rest with new errata), take 4 short rests to trade in warlock slots for Sorc points? You still get a long rest every day, but you can start each day with 4 short rests worth of sorcery points.

I feel like I'm forgetting something.
The theoretical optimization version would go for days, weeks, or months without long resting to build up arbitrarily large stockpiles of slots. An Elf taking an extra four short rests before starting the day is much more limited.

[RedMage125]

The elf Trance means you only need 4 hours of meditating. It does NOT change the 8 hour long rest requirement. Just means you have an extra 2 hours during a long rest that you can do stuff.

I though that there was errata that clarified that an elf finishes a "long rest" with 4 hours of trance?

[Mikal]

I though that there was errata that clarified that an elf finishes a "long rest" with 4 hours of trance?

gah sorry, you're right. they did change it so the actual duration is lessened. So, two hours of "trance", two hours of light activity, plus another 4 hours.

Decaf Coffeelock is viable

[RedMage125]

The theoretical optimization version would go for days, weeks, or months without long resting to build up arbitrarily large stockpiles of slots. An Elf taking an extra four short rests before starting the day is much more limited.

Right, so this is more manageable, less broken, less offensive, and still within a valid reading of RAW, right?

Have we found a valid compromise?

Decaf Coffeelock is viable

I love the name! Let's make it official!

[Naanomi]

The theoretical optimization version would go for days, weeks, or months without long resting to build up arbitrarily large stockpiles of slots. An Elf taking an extra four short rests before starting the day is much more limited.
But serves as a reasonable 'holdover' until you get Greater Restoration and the build can take off again

[SharkForce]

You're misrepresenting it, there. You typically need to sleep when taking a long rest, so for literally everyone else but the AotM Warlock (and Elves), taking a long rest has everything to do with sleep, and therefore skipping a long rest has everything to do with sleep deprivation.

AotM creates a specific rule that divorces sleep from long rests, and therefore it divorces long rests from sleep deprivation. That doesn't mean the rule on sleep deprivation now no longer has anything to do with sleeping.

it does have nothing to do with sleeping. i can sleep for 6 hours, fail to perform light activity for 2 hours and suffer from sleep deprivation. i've gotten enough sleep by the rules. why am i sleep deprived? by that rule, sleeping does not prevent sleep deprivation, only long rests do.


They do...they've got both Errata and Sage Advice compendium PDFs.

the great majority of the twitter responses are not in either of those places.

[Ganymede]

People are really going down swinging on this issue.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

People are really going down swinging on this issue.

I don't care about whether CoffeLock (or any particular build, really) gets broken; I do think it's asinine to issue any sort of rules statement through Twitter. RAI guidance I can just about accept.

[Joe the Rat]

Frankly, this is one of the invocations I would love to have. Work, socialize, and still have 8 hours for Netflix.

Having The Dancing Goat as your Patron aside, There are a few side benefits, but it depends greatly on your particular mode of play, and your DM.

Seems straightforward:
Immune to Sleep Magics, Sleep Poisons (Drow or otherwise), any Suggestion or Geas that includes a sleep command, and the Slumber version of Imprisonment. - All in all niche, but being able to blow off a 9th level spell with a 3rd level feature is kind of cool (if unlikely).

You never have to take off your armor. If you don't sleep, you don't have penalties for sleeping in armor. Might want to invest in Prestidigitation, Ser Crotchfunk.

Keeping watch all night.

Maintain concentration on a late-day Hex.

Attune three magic items. Add EK, and swap out your bonded weapons as well.

Identify magic items by fiddling with them for an hour

If you get a lot of overnight encounters, this guy is the lynchpin: Always ready for a fight.


Up for interpretation:
What constitutes "light activity" as part of a long rest.

Is reading light? What about writing? What about copying rituals into your Book of Ancient Secrets? Spell scrolls?

Crafting? Workdays assumed a standard 8 hour work day. Can you craft through your long rest? Make a bunch of arrows? make a potion of healing?

Cook a meal? Cook a large meal for a feast? Direct the kitchen staff to cook a meal?

Eating and talking? Feasting? Carousing? Can you get blackout drunk? What about something less chemically active, like gambling?

Doing research? Interrogating prisoners?

How much walking is allowed during a long rest, normally? Could you stroll about leisurely for 8 hours? Drive a wagon? Steer a boat?

[Mikal]

I don't care about whether CoffeLock (or any particular build, really) gets broken; I do think it's asinine to issue any sort of rules statement through Twitter. RAI guidance I can just about accept.

Well I think that's how people treat the twitter posts. It's not RAW, but RAI, and since that's the only insight we have since errata is rare, that's what most base their own rulings on. It's not official by any means, but it's what the crux of the argument is over. Was it intended for X or intended for Y.

So right now it's X. Until they change their minds again.

[Grod_The_Giant]

People are really going down swinging on this issue.
I don't care about the coffeelock, I just think the ruling is stupid because it renders the invocation useless.

[RedMage125]

I don't care about the coffeelock, I just think the ruling is stupid because it renders the invocation useless.

I think JoeTheRat just eloquently demonstrated that the invocation is not useless.

[Naanomi]

Level 10 Undying Patron Warlocks also don’t need sleep, “although you still require rest to reduce exhaustion and still benefit from finishing short and long rests.“

I think JoeTheRat just eloquently demonstrated that the invocation is not useless.
yes if your GM decides you can do things, you can do them... with no guidelines as to what constitutes light activity this is still potentially useless

[Mikal]

Level 10 Undying Patron Warlocks also don’t need sleep, “although you still require rest to reduce exhaustion and still benefit from finishing short and long rests.“

yes if your GM decides you can do things, you can do them... with no guidelines as to what constitutes light activity this is still potentially useless

Plus, even if you can do all those... does that still make the invocation as useful as well, nearly any other invocation?

[RedMage125]

Level 10 Undying Patron Warlocks also don’t need sleep, “although you still require rest to reduce exhaustion and still benefit from finishing short and long rests.“

yes if your GM decides you can do things, you can do them... with no guidelines as to what constitutes light activity this is still potentially useless


Plus, even if you can do all those... does that still make the invocation as useful as well, nearly any other invocation?

To paraphrase Joe:

You never have to take off your armor. If you don't sleep, you don't have penalties for sleeping in armor. Might want to invest in Prestidigitation, Ser Crotchfunk.

Keeping watch all night.

Attune three magic items. Add EK, and swap out your bonded weapons as well.

Identify magic items by fiddling with them for an hour

If you get a lot of overnight encounters, this guy is the lynchpin: Always ready for a fight.

These things are undeniably, unquestionably, benefits to AotM.

Subjective usefulness, perhaps.

Useless? Certainly not.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I think JoeTheRat just eloquently demonstrated that the invocation is not useless.
I think JoeTheRat pointed out a couple very niche or marginal uses, and a bunch of things that are both subjective and almost certainly won't be allowed. (I can't think of any world where "carousing" counts as light activity. Even crafting seems sketchy; the intent seems to me to be "nothing that requires much in the way of mental or physical activity.")

It's not nothing, by any means, but it's so far below what comparable Invocations offer that there's no reason you would take it.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Well I think that's how people treat the twitter posts. It's not RAW, but RAI, and since that's the only insight we have since errata is rare, that's what most base their own rulings on. It's not official by any means, but it's what the crux of the argument is over. Was it intended for X or intended for Y.

So right now it's X. Until they change their minds again.

I was surprised to learn from this thread that, according to the Sage Advice Compendium (https://dnd.wizards.com/sites/default/files/media/upload/articles/SA_Compendium.pdf), Jeremy can issue official rulings through Twitter.

[krugaan]

Well that's stupid. Oh well, at least he answered it. Guess infinite coffeelocks will need to be Divine Souls for Greater Restoration then!

HAH! BOOYASHAKA!

/dance

[Mikal]

HAH! BOOYASHAKA!

/dance

My thought process behind my claim is still valid, and I'm holding onto that. :smallcool:


I was surprised to learn from this thread that, according to the Sage Advice Compendium (https://dnd.wizards.com/sites/default/files/media/upload/articles/SA_Compendium.pdf), Jeremy can issue official rulings through Twitter.

.
..
...
Welcome to the 21st century!

[krugaan]

My thought process behind my claim is still valid, and I'm holding onto that. :smallcool:


Man, can't you at least, like, pretend to get mad or something?

Humph. Suck all the joy out of it, why dontcha.

[Mikal]

Man, can't you at least, like, pretend to get mad or something?

Humph. Suck all the joy out of it, why dontcha.

Meh. I was wrong in the context of RAI. It happens. Do I agree with it? Eh, not really. Does that mean I'm right? Currently, no. Why be mad about that? I'm the first to admit when I'm wrong once someone proves it.

It... maaaay also be fun to let the wind out of your sails too. Just a little.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

.
..
...
Welcome to the 21st century!

http://24.media.tumblr.com/114adae77acf91e0ef06212198891e02/tumblr_n5b5tdXpjt1qd52doo6_250.gif

[No brains]

I'm gonna miss bold roast coffee locks.

"You were good son, real good. Maybe even the best."

Although, now that they're reliant on a really expensive powder, they are not 'coffee' locks anymore... Now they're Snowflame.

[Mikal]

I'm gonna miss bold roast coffee locks.

"You were good son, real good. Maybe even the best."

Although, now that they're reliant on a really expensive powder, they are not 'coffee' locks anymore... Now they're Snowflame.

They've been upgraded to Venti No-Foam Latte Locks.

[RedMage125]

I'm gonna miss bold roast coffee locks.


Lol. Bold Roast.

[krugaan]

Meh. I was wrong in the context of RAI. It happens. Do I agree with it? Eh, not really. Does that mean I'm right? Currently, no. Why be mad about that? I'm the first to admit when I'm wrong once someone proves it.

It... maaaay also be fun to let the wind out of your sails too. Just a little.

Extra humph!

[Naanomi]

As someone who can only wear light armor (generally), they can sleep in their armor without penalties anyways

[Easy_Lee]

Will say again that going against RAI doesn't make one "wrong." As I've shown elsewhere, it's impossible to perfectly follow RAI unless you not only seek out the intended ruling for every rule, but also that those rulings never change. The first constraint is infeasible; there are hundreds of rules. And both Mearls and Crawford are inconsistent about rulings, which violates the second constraint.

There's no need to be upset by developer intent; your DM's interpretation is what matters.

[Tanarii]

There's no need to be upset by developer intent; your DM's interpretation is what matters.
More importantly in this case, it's "developer intent" liable to be rolled back as soon as someone points out that the long rest rule referenced is for sleep deprivation, and asks if he's saying AotM warlocks still suffer from sleep deprivation

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Will say again that going against RAI doesn't make one "wrong." As I've shown elsewhere, it's impossible to perfectly follow RAI unless you not only seek out the intended ruling for every rule, but also that those rulings never change. The first constraint is infeasible; there are hundreds of rules. And both Mearls and Crawford are inconsistent about rulings, which violates the second constraint.

There's no need to be upset by developer intent; your DM's interpretation is what matters.

Endorsed. I do think RAI has a place when it comes to clear, obvious misprints. I'm thinking here of the 1d43 scorpion whips, with an inexplicably empty cell in the next column over in the table.

[The_Jette]

More importantly in this case, it's "developer intent" liable to be rolled back as soon as someone points out that the long rest rule referenced is for sleep deprivation, and asks if he's saying AotM warlocks still suffer from sleep deprivation

Elves don't sleep, either. But, if they don't get some rest, they get exhausted. Just because you don't have to sleep, doesn't mean you don't have to rest. That's why it's called long and short rests, not "naps" and "full night's sleep". I wouldn't care one way or the other, if my DM house ruled that you didn't need a rest at all, though. TBH, I would never play a coffee-lock.

[Tanarii]

Just because you don't have to sleep, doesn't mean you don't have to rest.
What's that got to do with the price of milk?

We're discussing a (optional) rule specifically there for sleep deprivation, and a invocation designed to remove the need to sleep.

Saying the rule doesn't still applies means that they still suffer from sleep deprivation, despite not needing sleep.

[The_Jette]

What's that got to do with the price of milk?

We're discussing a (optional) rule specifically there for sleep deprivation, and a invocation designed to remove the need to sleep.

Saying the rule doesn't still applies means that they still suffer from sleep deprivation, despite not needing sleep.

It's called sleep deprivation because humans need sleep, and we're the ones who invented the words. But, it's actually exhaustion. So, even if a creature doesn't need sleep, they still need rest. The spirit of the rule is that if you don't rest, you are physically drained. So, ignoring the fact that you don't need sleep shouldn't necessarily get you out of needing rest. How was I unclear about that?

[Ganymede]

We're discussing a (optional) rule specifically there for sleep deprivation, and a invocation designed to remove the need to sleep.


You might be misremembering.

The rule in Xanathar's deals with skipping long rests, not sleep deprivation. Crawford's tweet in the OP should have made that abundantly clear, even if the text didn't (though the text was unambiguous as well).

[Tanarii]

It's called sleep deprivation because humans need sleep, and we're the ones who invented the words. But, it's actually exhaustion. So, even if a creature doesn't need sleep, they still need rest. The spirit of the rule is that if you don't rest, you are physically drained. So, ignoring the fact that you don't need sleep shouldn't necessarily get you out of needing rest. How was I unclear about that?
Yeah, no. The rule says it's about sleep deprivation. Explicitly.

Instead of your torturous rationalization necessary to arrive at your so-called "intent" of the rule, they could have just left out explicitly saying it was about sleep deprivation. Then it would have just been a rule about skipping (long) rest, as you say.


You might be misremembering.

The rule in Xanathar's deals with skipping long rests, not sleep deprivation. Crawford's tweet in the OP should have made that abundantly clear, even if the text didn't (though the text was unambiguous as well).
I am not misremembering anything. I included the XtGE rule quote the OP disingenuously left out to support his position. (Which apparently isn't an actual argument he is even making, according to his later posts. Which makes him a troll.)

[krugaan]

It's called sleep deprivation because humans need sleep, and we're the ones who invented the words. But, it's actually exhaustion. So, even if a creature doesn't need sleep, they still need rest. The spirit of the rule is that if you don't rest, you are physically drained. So, ignoring the fact that you don't need sleep shouldn't necessarily get you out of needing rest. How was I unclear about that?

This is true in more ways than one.

Sleep is necessary for at least the brain and muscles, AFAIK. Muscles do most of their growth and repair when you're asleep and not moving. All muscle use causes damage, and if you don't sleep it doesn't repair itself nearly as effectively.

Sleep's effects on the brain are even more pronounced. Your brain builds metabolic wastes during wakefulness. During sleep (I forget exactly which phase), the brain actually shrinks by something like 60%, and cerebrospinal fluid irrigates and washes out those poisons.

They discovered this fairly recently (in the last couple years or so), and are linking lack of sleep to all kinds of degenerative brain disorders (notably alzheimers).

I'll try to find the documentation if requested.

[The_Jette]

Yeah, no. The rule says it's about sleep deprivation. Explicitly.

Instead of your torturous rationalization necessary to arrive at your so-called "intent" of the rule, they could have just left out explicitly saying it was about sleep deprivation. Then it would have just been a rule about skipping (long) rest, as you say.


I am not misremembering anything. I included the XtGE rule quote the OP disingenuously left out to support his position. (Which apparently isn't an actual argument. Which makes him a troll.)

You know you're talking about people here, right? People make mistakes all the time, especially in a situation where they're in a rush (say to get out a product on time). My "torturous rationalization" is just looking logically at creatures who don't "sleep" in the same sense that humans do, and figuring out where they get the same benefits. Elves still do a meditation-like trance which does the same thing as sleep for them. Without going into a trance, they should deal with the same situation as a human without sleep. Without resting, a person who doesn't sleep should still be exhausted. It's not that big of a stretch of logic.

[Bahamut7]

I am thankful for JC to clarify this that has lead to 6(?) threads arguing it? I do agree that the decision has unfortunately made the invocation strictly Fluff and no way mechanically beneficial. Sure, will I still use this invocation? Yes, but it will be swapped as soon as I can for the Ancient Book of secrets one.

Just remember folks, these rulings are guidelines and each table can tweak any rules to fit the need of that table. If you really want to make it excuse the long rest penalty, talk to your DM.

[Easy_Lee]

I am thankful for JC to clarify this that has lead to 6(?) threads arguing it? I do agree that the decision has unfortunately made the invocation strictly Fluff and no way mechanically beneficial. Sure, will I still use this invocation? Yes, but it will be swapped as soon as I can for the Ancient Book of secrets one.

Just remember folks, these rulings are guidelines and each table can tweak any rules to fit the need of that table. If you really want to make it excuse the long rest penalty, talk to your DM.

Last I checked, the rule that skipping sleep caused exhaustion was optional in the first place.

Not that this makes it different from any other rule in actual play, since DMs can and often do ignore or change things on the fly anyway. But people on the forums seem to care about this sort of thing.

In short, Aspect is the Moon is useless only if your DM uses that optional rule and follows the apparent RAI - two big ifs.

[Ganymede]

I am not misremembering anything. I included the XtGE rule quote the OP disingenuously left out to support his position. (Which apparently isn't an actual argument he is even making, according to his later posts. Which makes him a troll.)

The OP? You mean Jeremy Crawford?

He's allowed to make any rule clarifications he wants.

[LeonBH]

I'm infinitely amused by the fact that Tanarii, who has been shown to be wrong, is unyielding his stance while calling me (the OP) a troll.

The rule literally says "Whenever you end a 24-hour period without finishing a long rest, you must succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion."

And JC has clarified, "Aspect of the Moon lets you forgo sleep when you take a long rest. The invocation doesn't remove the need for long rests."

The RAW and the RAI are aligned in this instance.


Seems straightforward:
Immune to Sleep Magics, Sleep Poisons (Drow or otherwise), any Suggestion or Geas that includes a sleep command, and the Slumber version of Imprisonment. - All in all niche, but being able to blow off a 9th level spell with a 3rd level feature is kind of cool (if unlikely).

You never have to take off your armor. If you don't sleep, you don't have penalties for sleeping in armor. Might want to invest in Prestidigitation, Ser Crotchfunk.

Keeping watch all night.

Maintain concentration on a late-day Hex.

Attune three magic items. Add EK, and swap out your bonded weapons as well.

Identify magic items by fiddling with them for an hour

If you get a lot of overnight encounters, this guy is the lynchpin: Always ready for a fight.

Maintaining concentration may be a sticking point too. I'm not sure if that constitutes as light activity since it involves magic. But it's not unreasonable to call it light activity, IMO. Also, attuning/identifying magic items requires a series of short rests, which you wouldn't be taking if you were hunkering down for a long rest.

[krugaan]

I'm infinitely amused by the fact that Tanarii, who has been shown to be wrong, is unyielding his stance while calling me (the OP) a troll.

The rule literally says "Whenever you end a 24-hour period without finishing a long rest, you must succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion."

And JC has clarified, "Aspect of the Moon lets you forgo sleep when you take a long rest. The invocation doesn't remove the need for long rests."

The RAW and the RAI are aligned in this instance.

Coffeelock is no longer a build...

It's a entity.

A black hole that sucks in all attention and logic and emotion.

Not even JC can put this fire out.

There's going to be a new deity on Toril.

Java be praised.

[Mikal]

As the coffeelock waxes aspect of the moon... wanes.

Sorry had to. Aspect of the moon still sucks now tho.

[krugaan]

As the coffeelock waxes aspect of the moon... wanes.

Sorry had to. Aspect of the moon still sucks now tho.

Pretty much. Well, not all invocations can be "so good all CHA classes want to dip warlock".

For every Agonizing Blast, there must be an Aspect of the Moon. Thus is the balance maintained!...

... poorly.

[Bahamut7]

Last I checked, the rule that skipping sleep caused exhaustion was optional in the first place.

Not that this makes it different from any other rule in actual play, since DMs can and often do ignore or change things on the fly anyway. But people on the forums seem to care about this sort of thing.

In short, Aspect is the Moon is useless only if your DM uses that optional rule and follows the apparent RAI - two big ifs.

Yes, that is why I wanted to remind everyone it still can be played any way at your table if the group agrees to it.

It saddens me a bit because I like any option (feat, invocation, feature, etc) to have both Fluff and Crunch with what it brings. The Fluff always adds great RP and the crunch can help when it matters. I know not all options will be great at all times, but one can still wish.

[Caelic]

Coffeelock is no longer a build...

It's a entity.

A black hole that sucks in all attention and logic and emotion.

Not even JC can put this fire out.

There's going to be a new deity on Toril.

Java be praised.

Pun Pun is unamused by the pretender.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Pun Pun is unamused by the pretender.

But which was ruled to come first, the Pun-Pun or the Omniscifier?

[Dalebert]

Eventually, most sorcs will not be able to fail a DC 10 con save, assuming they invested a bit in con which they should. At 5th level, mine will only fail 15% of the time.

[LeonBH]

Eventually, most sorcs will not be able to fail a DC 10 con save, assuming they invested a bit in con which they should. At 5th level, mine will only fail 15% of the time.

Right, but every succeeding night adds 5 to the DC, pass or fail. On the second night, it's DC 15. On the third, it's DC 20.

It does strike me that having a Divination Wizard in the party will make this easier night after night, but they'd have to save their high Portent roll for you.

Still, the DC reaches impossibly high levels after several days and then Greater Restoration is the only way you can ensure you don't die of exhaustion after that.

[Arkhios]

Well that's stupid. Oh well, at least he answered it. Guess infinite coffeelocks will need to be Divine Souls for Greater Restoration then!

Frankly, the only thing stupid here is the concept for a CoffeeLock :smallamused:

[krugaan]

Frankly, the only thing stupid here is the concept for a CoffeeLock :smallamused:

No YOU!

/10 char

[Zene]

Vindication!

This aligns with my original reading of the Aspect of the Moon text. (I was basically shouted down in the first xge coffeelock thread for suggesting it)

Thank you for sharing. So glad JC cleared this up, though to be honest I was hoping he’d come down the other way on it.

Eh. The evidence seemed strong the other way, RAW. *shrug* It happens.


"Evidence seemed strong"?

"It happens"?

Dude.

In that thread, you flipped out on me for just suggesting there was another way to interpret it. You accused me of lying, of deliberately trying to sabotage you, and of intentionally trying to mislead everyone else in the thread.

When I held out an olive branch, suggesting we both just keep an open mind until there was a clarification, you doubled down and called me a liar again.

I didn't expect an apology or anything, but "it happens"? Damn.

[Mikal]

"Evidence seemed strong"?

"It happens"?

Dude.

In that thread, you flipped out on me for just suggesting there was another way to interpret it. You accused me of lying, of deliberately trying to sabotage you, and of intentionally trying to mislead everyone else in the thread.

When I held out an olive branch, suggesting we both just keep an open mind until there was a clarification, you doubled down and called me a liar again.

I didn't expect an apology or anything, but "it happens"? Damn.

Because you were doing all that stuff. Just because you acted that way doesn't have anything to do with the evidence or result. Apples and oranges.

[Vogie]

Frankly, this is one of the invocations I would love to have. Work, socialize, and still have 8 hours for Netflix.

Having The Dancing Goat as your Patron aside, There are a few side benefits, but it depends greatly on your particular mode of play, and your DM.
Seems straightforward:

Immune to Sleep Magics, Sleep Poisons (Drow or otherwise), any Suggestion or Geas that includes a sleep command, and the Slumber version of Imprisonment. - All in all niche, but being able to blow off a 9th level spell with a 3rd level feature is kind of cool (if unlikely).
You never have to take off your armor. If you don't sleep, you don't have penalties for sleeping in armor. Might want to invest in Prestidigitation, Ser Crotchfunk.
Keeping watch all night.
Maintain concentration on a late-day Hex.
Attune three magic items. Add EK, and swap out your bonded weapons as well.
Identify magic items by fiddling with them for an hour
If you get a lot of overnight encounters, this guy is the lynchpin: Always ready for a fight.

Up for interpretation:

What constitutes "light activity" as part of a long rest.
Is reading light? What about writing? What about copying rituals into your Book of Ancient Secrets? Spell scrolls?
Crafting? Workdays assumed a standard 8 hour work day. Can you craft through your long rest? Make a bunch of arrows? make a potion of healing?
Cook a meal? Cook a large meal for a feast? Direct the kitchen staff to cook a meal?
Eating and talking? Feasting? Carousing? Can you get blackout drunk? What about something less chemically active, like gambling?
Doing research? Interrogating prisoners?
How much walking is allowed during a long rest, normally? Could you stroll about leisurely for 8 hours? Drive a wagon? Steer a boat?



Not to mention that AotM allows the coffeelock to *still* opt into "java mode" for a single day, at the sole cost of a single roll to prevent exhaustion. That's still a huge benefit. They can't do it forever, and there is a downside (failing the roll and becoming exhausted), but it is still an option.

It's giving an extra ability to basically increase their Nova potential, as long as they have enough time to prepare. That's still strong.

That's even a useful tool for a DM - If you have a coffeelock, who taps into their java power, then suddenly long-rest interruptions are more prevalent, story-wise. It's a bit ironic, as the entire concept of the coffeelock was removing the tyranny of the long rest (and, the DM's ability to interrupt said long rest), and now it can be more powerful against them if timed right.

The party powers up for a huge encounter, and it goes... not the way they thought it would. Now they're on the run, without the ability to rest, with a preemptively-exhausted warlock! That's a compelling left hook to add to a story. There's a reason that the new Battlestar Galactica reboot's first episode (after the 2-episode pilot) was '33 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/33_(Battlestar_Galactica))'.

[Zene]

Because you were doing all that stuff. Just because you acted that way doesn't have anything to do with the evidence or result. Apples and oranges.

So when I say it could be interpreted in more than one way;

and you call me a dishonest, manipulative liar for saying so, because there’s only one way to read the RAW and only one possible RAI;

and then it turns out you were just flat-out wrong; and it could, in fact be interpreted the other way, which is exacty what I’d said that caused you to flip out...

you’re still going to stand by those accusations?

That’s not apples to oranges, that’s just being a troll twice.

You do you, though. Have fun.

[LeonBH]

Not to mention that AotM allows the coffeelock to *still* opt into "java mode" for a single day, at the sole cost of a single roll to prevent exhaustion. That's still a huge benefit. They can't do it forever, and there is a downside (failing the roll and becoming exhausted), but it is still an option.

It's giving an extra ability to basically increase their Nova potential, as long as they have enough time to prepare. That's still strong.

That's even a useful tool for a DM - If you have a coffeelock, who taps into their java power, then suddenly long-rest interruptions are more prevalent, story-wise. It's a bit ironic, as the entire concept of the coffeelock was removing the tyranny of the long rest (and, the DM's ability to interrupt said long rest), and now it can be more powerful against them if timed right.

The party powers up for a huge encounter, and it goes... not the way they thought it would. Now they're on the run, without the ability to rest, with a preemptively-exhausted warlock! That's a compelling left hook to add to a story. There's a reason that the new Battlestar Galactica reboot's first episode (after the 2-episode pilot) was '33 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/33_(Battlestar_Galactica))'.

Actually, it legitimizes this tactic, IMO. Punishing a tactic (like not taking long rests) means you can use that tactic, as long as you pay the price for it. And as far as not sleeping every other day, the risk of a DC 10 Con save is worth it for a single level of exhaustion, as long as you have ways to mitigate it pre-Greater Restoration.

It's why I personally prefer to not punish certain things, but instead talk to the players so that they aren't used at all instead.

[Easy_Lee]

The trouble with punishing long rests is that it favors certain classes. Rogues in particular, especially ranged rogues, barely need to rest. One could take the Healer feat on a thief and be good to go at all times.

At that point, the player is building a character to suit the DM and the DM's campaign rather than building what he wants to play. I have no issue with doing that. But not all players like to do that.