Cha-based UnMonk/Magus debuff build

[nmitchell2]

Yep, you read that right.

My build takes two levels of Unchained Monk with the Scaled Fist archetype and the rest in Magus with the Eldritch Scion and Staff Magus archetypes. This character aims to stack multiple debuffs on as many targets within reach as possible and deal decent damage into the bargain. The basic premise of the build is achieved by character level three (UnMonk 1/Magus 2) and only gets better at what it does as the levels go up. On to the build!

Note that this character is meant to be used in PFS play, but will work in almost any campaign. I'm looking for potential alterations to the build.

Half Elf (Dual Minded)
Traits: Magical Knack, Magical Lineage [Frostbite]
Unchained Monk (Scaled Fist) 2 / Magus (Eldritch Scion, Staff Magus) X
1) AC Bonus, Draconic Might, Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist, Unarmed Strike
Bonus Feat: Dragon Style
Feat: Enforcer
2) Bloodline: Aberrant, Eldritch Pool [0.5x+Cha points per day, x=Magus level], Quarterstaff Master, Spell Combat
(mystic focus)
Bloodline Power: Staggering Strike
3) Spellstrike
Feat: Rime Spell
4) Magus Arcana: Manoeuvre Mastery (trip)
5) Bloodline Power: Abnormal Reach
Feat: Spontaneous Metafocus [Frostbite]
6) Evasion
Bonus Feat: Intimidating Prowess
7) Bonus Feat: Dragon Ferocity
Feat: Extra Arcane Pool
8) Magus Arcana: Arcane Accuracy
9) Quarterstaff Defence
Bonus Spell: See Invisibility
Feat: Lunge
10) Spell Combat (any time)
Bloodline Power: Aberrant Fortitude
11) Bonus Spell: Enlarge Person
Feat: Aberrant Tumour
Magus Arcana: Wand Wielder
12) Staff Weapon

OK so the build comes online at 3rd, at which point I can use Spellstrike to cast a Rimed Frostbite through my Quarterstaff during a trip attempt and withhold my charges until next turn when I can use Flurry of Blows to hit multiple targets in reach. Getting up provokes an AoO meaning once someone is down they are completely screwed. Frostbite deals non-lethal damage, meaning I an use Enforcer on the attack as well. By 3rd level I am inflicting fatigued (Frostbite), entangled (Rime Spell), prone (trip) and shaken (Enforcer) with a single attack, and have three Frostbite charges per cast.

By 6th level the build has really come into its own. At this level I can gain 10ft reach using my Eldritch Pool to give me Abnormal Reach as a swift action, Spellstrike a Rimed Frostbite in the same turn thanks to Spontaneous Metafocus, I get Manoeuvre Mastery on my trip attempts and Intimidating Prowess on my demoralise attempts. I should also have an Amulet of Mighty Fists and the Cruel weapon enhancement on my Quarterstaff by now, adding sickened to the list of debuffs. I have six Frostbite charges per cast at this level.

By 12th level the build is fully fleshed out. At this level I can Spell Combat whenever I want with wands and staves (read: Wand of True Strike) that doesn't interfere with Spellstrike holding charges, Lunge and Enlarge Person increase my reach to even higher levels increasing my area of control, I have an Aberrant Tumour familiar that functions as a scout and wand monkey with a Wand of Cure Light Wounds. I also have an additional attack per turn from my BAB starting at 8th level. Hopefully I will have found a decent magical staff by this level too.

The reason I'm posting this build is to get some advice/contructive criticism. Will this build work in PFS play? Are there any rules I'm breaking and what are the workarounds (if any)? Are there any improvements that could be made? Is my idea retarded and should it be scrapped? Thanks!

[Geddy2112]

I get the dip into scaled fist for AC and monk tricks, but the 2nd level is just getting you evasion, which is not all that big of a deal, considering your reflex saves won't be all that great as is. You get intimidating prowess too, but that+evasion is hardly worth a caster level in magus. Your intimidate will be strong, but you don't have a way to trigger it in combat efficiently like cornagun smash(requires power attack) so I don't see any point in maxing it unless you want to use it out of combat, which is perfectly legitimate. Manuver mastery is not all that good, as you are already 3/4th BAB, and it ignores your entire BAB, including your 2 monk levels, so as is, it is borderline worthless. If you were straight magus focused on a maneuver it is okay, but with even a single level dip in a full BAB class, it is pretty bad.

With reach, you might want to work combat reflexes into the build. Also, are you using AOMF to use unarmed strikes as well as your staff? Why do you need those as well, considering you can flurry with your quarterstaff as is, since it is a monk weapon? I suppose you use your unarmed strikes with dragon style, and your quarterstaff as your other flurry?

[exelsisxax]

Bunch of problems, this is certainly not going to fly in PFS.

magical knack and magical lineage are both magic traits, but PF rules state only 1 trait per category.

you cannot hold a charge while hitting. If you spellstrike sucessfully, you're losing a charge. Holding a charge is what happens when you have non-expended charges at the end of the round and choose to not end the effect. It isn't an action you can use to preserve charges instead of expending them.

enforcer cannot be used with frostbite, because your weapon isn't dealing nonlethal damage.



As the above poster mentioned, maneuver mastery is basically worthless, especially with trip attempts. Just boost your strength.

You also seem to be under the impression the flurry stacks with spell combat: it does not. Pretending you don't have flurry at all is the best way to think about this: as soon as you have a 2 magus levels, you can get 2 attacks with spellstrike/spell combat anyway, making flurry essentially pointless.

[Kurald Galain]

The question is why you'd want flurry of blows on a Magus. Normally, you'd spend one turn doing Frostbite + full attack from spell combat, and the second turn you first make the full attack from spell combat and then cast something else (if nothing else, an attack cantrip).

By the time you have more Frostbite charges than attacks on this routine, you're high enough in level that you have plenty of first level spells anyway.

[nmitchell2]

I get the dip into scaled fist for AC and monk tricks, but the 2nd level is just getting you evasion, which is not all that big of a deal, considering your reflex saves won't be all that great as is. You get intimidating prowess too, but that+evasion is hardly worth a caster level in magus. Your intimidate will be strong, but you don't have a way to trigger it in combat efficiently like cornagun smash(requires power attack) so I don't see any point in maxing it unless you want to use it out of combat, which is perfectly legitimate. Manuver mastery is not all that good, as you are already 3/4th BAB, and it ignores your entire BAB, including your 2 monk levels, so as is, it is borderline worthless. If you were straight magus focused on a maneuver it is okay, but with even a single level dip in a full BAB class, it is pretty bad.

With reach, you might want to work combat reflexes into the build. Also, are you using AOMF to use unarmed strikes as well as your staff? Why do you need those as well, considering you can flurry with your quarterstaff as is, since it is a monk weapon? I suppose you use your unarmed strikes with dragon style, and your quarterstaff as your other flurry?

Fair point about the 2nd level in Monk, Evasion and a feat isn't all that hard to give up. I will certainly look into fitting Combat Reflexes into the build somewhere, thank you for reminding me it exists. Intimidating Prowess is there to be used with Enforcer, which can give me an Intimidate check to demoralise the target of my attack as a free action. With a decent Cha it might me unnecessary though, and depending on the ruling (see below) it might not work at all so I might swap it out anyway. Looking back at Manoeuvre Mastery, I see your point there too. Do you think Arcane Accuracy would be worth it in place of Manoeuvre Mastery?

Enforcer gives me an Intimidate check as a free action when I deal non-lethal damage with a melee weapon, Frostbite deals non-lethal damage and with Spellstrike I channel it through my Quarterstaff, thus dealing non-lethal damage with a melee weapon. However, as the quote below pointed out, the Quarterstaff doesn't have the non-lethal descriptor and it could be argued that Enforcer doesn't work because of that. Personally I think it should work but it's a grey area, maybe you can shed some light on whether or not it actually works?


Bunch of problems, this is certainly not going to fly in PFS.

magical knack and magical lineage are both magic traits, but PF rules state only 1 trait per category.

you cannot hold a charge while hitting. If you spellstrike sucessfully, you're losing a charge. Holding a charge is what happens when you have non-expended charges at the end of the round and choose to not end the effect. It isn't an action you can use to preserve charges instead of expending them.

enforcer cannot be used with frostbite, because your weapon isn't dealing nonlethal damage.



As the above poster mentioned, maneuver mastery is basically worthless, especially with trip attempts. Just boost your strength.

You also seem to be under the impression the flurry stacks with spell combat: it does not. Pretending you don't have flurry at all is the best way to think about this: as soon as you have a 2 magus levels, you can get 2 attacks with spellstrike/spell combat anyway, making flurry essentially pointless.

Correct about Magical Knack and Magical Lineage, I forgot about the restrictions on traits. I will be keeping Magical Lineage and replacing Magical Knack. Any suggestions?

Frostbite has multiple charges and I can only use one charge per attack. I will only have one attack on the turn I cast the spell (granted to me by Spellstrike) and therefore will only expend one charge that turn. If I choose not to end the effect, I'm preserving the remaining charges.

I can see where you're coming from as a Quarterstaff doesn't have the non-lethal descriptor (which I think is retarded but that's not relevant to this discussion). The argument I would make is that Frostbite deals non-lethal damage and Spellstrike is channelling it through my Quarterstaff, therefore I am dealing non-lethal damage with a melee weapon and can thus procc Enforcer. It is a grey area, maybe you can shed some light on the PFS ruling on this matter?

I recognise I can't use them together as they are both full-round actions. Eldritch Scion alters Spell Combat so you can only use it while in a 'mystic trance' until Magus level 8, which you can enter for two turns by spending an Eldritch Point as a swift action. This is how I access my Bloodline Powers. The two-turn limit is extremely harsh but I'm working with what I have here. On the first turn, I will use a swift action to access my Bloodline Powers then I will Spellstrike a Rimed Frostbite, stacking all my debuffs onto the unlucky sap I manage to get in front of me. On the second turn, I will use Flurry of Blows to hit as many people as I have in reach, applying as many debuffs as I can to as many people as I can. Spell Combat doesn't enter that attack routine at all. At higher levels I have more options and will possibly (highly likely) want to skip Flurry of Blows to use Spell Combat.


The question is why you'd want flurry of blows on a Magus. Normally, you'd spend one turn doing Frostbite + full attack from spell combat, and the second turn you first make the full attack from spell combat and then cast something else (if nothing else, an attack cantrip).

By the time you have more Frostbite charges than attacks on this routine, you're high enough in level that you have plenty of first level spells anyway.

I'm working with the limitations of Eldritch Scion. I'm assuming that I will be spending a swift action to access my Bloodline Powers and using Spellstrike in my first turn, then Flurry of Blows to use as many Frostbite charges as possible in my second turn. On the third turn, my Bloodline Powers have worn off again so I have to spend a swift action buffing myself up again. Until I get Spell Combat outside of mystic trance, Flurry of Blows has my back. It will continue to be a useful option at higher levels for maximising the number of charges I can use in a single turn and it comes attached to a class with another highly desirable class feature (Cha to AC).

[Kurald Galain]

I'm assuming that I will be spending a swift action to access my Bloodline Powers and using Spellstrike in my first turn, then Flurry of Blows to use as many Frostbite charges as possible in my second turn. On the third turn, my Bloodline Powers have worn off again so I have to spend a swift action buffing myself up again.
If you do this, you'll always be in mystic trance so you can always use spell combat.

Cha to AC is good, no argument there. But you could also get that from (e.g.) Oracle, and get some useful clerical magic as a backup.

[Geddy2112]

Fair point about the 2nd level in Monk, Evasion and a feat isn't all that hard to give up. I will certainly look into fitting Combat Reflexes into the build somewhere, thank you for reminding me it exists. Intimidating Prowess is there to be used with Enforcer, which can give me an Intimidate check to demoralise the target of my attack as a free action. With a decent Cha it might me unnecessary though, and depending on the ruling (see below) it might not work at all so I might swap it out anyway. Looking back at Manoeuvre Mastery, I see your point there too. Do you think Arcane Accuracy would be worth it in place of Manoeuvre Mastery?

Enforcer gives me an Intimidate check as a free action when I deal non-lethal damage with a melee weapon, Frostbite deals non-lethal damage and with Spellstrike I channel it through my Quarterstaff, thus dealing non-lethal damage with a melee weapon. However, as the quote below pointed out, the Quarterstaff doesn't have the non-lethal descriptor and it could be argued that Enforcer doesn't work because of that. Personally I think it should work but it's a grey area, maybe you can shed some light on whether or not it actually works?
It won't, because it is not the weapon dealing the damage, it is the spell. The delivery of the spell is through a weapon, but the weapon damage is lethal, the spell damage is nonlethal. You can use a lethal weapon to deal nonlethal damage with a -4 to the attack, keep that in mind. Enforcer and intimidating prowess work well on scaled fists, but normally because they use their hands and do nonlethal that way.

Arcane accuracy is decent, and possibly moreso for your build since your CHA might be pretty jacked. If you can get a +4 or more, I think it is worth it for those times you really need to land a hit, but keep in mind it needs a swift action. I would consider the flamboyant arcana-combined with combat reflexes it is really strong defense.

[nmitchell2]

If you do this, you'll always be in mystic trance so you can always use spell combat.

Cha to AC is good, no argument there. But you could also get that from (e.g.) Oracle, and get some useful clerical magic as a backup.

I can use Spell Combat every 2nd turn, it's a full-round action so I don't get a swift. I can see wanting to cast after making all of my attacks but often I will simply want as many attacks as possible and that's what Flurry of Blows gives me.

If I have both Flurry of Blows and Spell Combat, I can use whichever I deem to be the most useful at the time. Having it isn't exactly a downside. Also I can't use Spell Combat outside mystic trance until character level 9 (with just one level of Monk), that's 75% of my PFS career.

[exelsisxax]

Enforcer gives me an Intimidate check as a free action when I deal non-lethal damage with a melee weapon, Frostbite deals non-lethal damage and with Spellstrike I channel it through my Quarterstaff, thus dealing non-lethal damage with a melee weapon. However, as the quote below pointed out, the Quarterstaff doesn't have the non-lethal descriptor and it could be argued that Enforcer doesn't work because of that. Personally I think it should work but it's a grey area, maybe you can shed some light on whether or not it actually works?


Enforcer requires you to deal nonlethal damage with a melee weapon. Your melee weapon is dealing lethal damage, so this doesn't work. That's it, no grey area to be found.



Correct about Magical Knack and Magical Lineage, I forgot about the restrictions on traits. I will be keeping Magical Lineage and replacing Magical Knack. Any suggestions?

Not really - your caster level loss can't be dealt with by traits otherwise.



Frostbite has multiple charges and I can only use one charge per attack. I will only have one attack on the turn I cast the spell (granted to me by Spellstrike) and therefore will only expend one charge that turn. If I choose not to end the effect, I'm preserving the remaining charges.

At level 3, you only have one charge, and you can't spellstrike yet. You need to revise your idea of when this build even starts to work.



I recognize I can't use them together as they are both full-round actions. Eldritch Scion alters Spell Combat so you can only use it while in a 'mystic trance' until Magus level 8, which you can enter for two turns by spending an Eldritch Point as a swift action. This is how I access my Bloodline Powers. The two-turn limit is extremely harsh but I'm working with what I have here. On the first turn, I will use a swift action to access my Bloodline Powers then I will Spellstrike a Rimed Frostbite, stacking all my debuffs onto the unlucky sap I manage to get in front of me. On the second turn, I will use Flurry of Blows to hit as many people as I have in reach, applying as many debuffs as I can to as many people as I can. Spell Combat doesn't enter that attack routine at all. At higher levels I have more options and will possibly (highly likely) want to skip Flurry of Blows to use Spell Combat.

I'm working with the limitations of Eldritch Scion. I'm assuming that I will be spending a swift action to access my Bloodline Powers and using Spellstrike in my first turn, then Flurry of Blows to use as many Frostbite charges as possible in my second turn. On the third turn, my Bloodline Powers have worn off again so I have to spend a swift action buffing myself up again. Until I get Spell Combat outside of mystic trance, Flurry of Blows has my back. It will continue to be a useful option at higher levels for maximising the number of charges I can use in a single turn and it comes attached to a class with another highly desirable class feature (Cha to AC).

If you're using a bloodline power, you have mystic focus, and mystic focus allows you to use spell combat. I'm not seeing any reason to use flurry here.

[nmitchell2]

It won't, because it is not the weapon dealing the damage, it is the spell. The delivery of the spell is through a weapon, but the weapon damage is lethal, the spell damage is nonlethal. You can use a lethal weapon to deal nonlethal damage with a -4 to the attack, keep that in mind. Enforcer and intimidating prowess work well on scaled fists, but normally because they use their hands and do nonlethal that way.

Arcane accuracy is decent, and possibly moreso for your build since your CHA might be pretty jacked. If you can get a +4 or more, I think it is worth it for those times you really need to land a hit, but keep in mind it needs a swift action. I would consider the flamboyant arcana-combined with combat reflexes it is really strong defense.

Then I will do non-lethal that way.

Flamboyant Arcana for the parries might well be amazing, it gives me a use for my reaction without needing to be in mystic trance.

[Kurald Galain]

I can use Spell Combat every 2nd turn, it's a full-round action so I don't get a swift.
I don't know where you got that idea, but yes, you CAN use a swift action (and a 5' step) in the same round as a full round action.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/#TOC-Action-Types

[nmitchell2]

Enforcer requires you to deal nonlethal damage with a melee weapon. Your melee weapon is dealing lethal damage, so this doesn't work. That's it, no grey area to be found.



Not really - your caster level loss can't be dealt with by traits otherwise.



At level 3, you only have one charge, and you can't spellstrike yet. You need to revise your idea of when this build even starts to work.



If you're using a bloodline power, you have mystic focus, and mystic focus allows you to use spell combat. I'm not seeing any reason to use flurry here.

I disagree with that ruling on Enforcer, but if that's how PFS sees it then I guess that's how it will be. That's really annoying, I don't want to do take a -4 just because I specified non-lethal. I could try fit in Power Attack and Cornugon Smash, or just give up on demoralise.

At character level three I am Monk 1/Magus 2, I can Spellstrike at Magus 2 and I have two Frostbite charges. My build works at this level.

I won't be in mystic focus all the time. I will want to be but Eldritch Points are sparse, especially if I want to buff my weapon as well as access my Bloodline Powers. Flurry of Blows will become less and less necessary as the levels increase, but it will carry me into the higher levels and will still be a good option for damage even at higher levels.

[nmitchell2]

I don't know where you got that idea, but yes, you CAN use a swift action (and a 5' step) in the same round as a full round action.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/#TOC-Action-Types

Ok then, that changes things massively. First turn I can swift action buff, declare Spell Combat, Spellstrike a Rimed Frostbite, make all my attacks, end turn. Second turn I can declare Spell Combat, make all my attacks, cast a different spell, end turn. Yeah, Flurry of Blows is superfluous in that case. Apologies for the confusion.

I will be having some serious words with my gaming group.

[Kurald Galain]

Enforcer gives me an Intimidate check as a free action when I deal non-lethal damage with a melee weapon, Frostbite deals non-lethal damage and with Spellstrike I channel it through my Quarterstaff, thus dealing non-lethal damage with a melee weapon. However, as the quote below pointed out, the Quarterstaff doesn't have the non-lethal descriptor and it could be argued that Enforcer doesn't work because of that. Personally I think it should work but it's a grey area, maybe you can shed some light on whether or not it actually works?

For what it's worth, I've played a PFS character with this combo for over a year and have had precisely zero people taking issue with it. So it strikes me that to most players, this is not a gray area and the combo works just fine.

[exelsisxax]

Ok then, that changes things massively. First turn I can swift action buff, declare Spell Combat, Spellstrike a Rimed Frostbite, make all my attacks, end turn. Second turn I can declare Spell Combat, make all my attacks, cast a different spell, end turn. Yeah, Flurry of Blows is superfluous in that case. Apologies for the confusion.

I will be having some serious words with my gaming group.

Just remember that you can't do this until you can metamagic frostbite without increasing the casting time. Unlike spellstrike, spell combat does require standard or less casting time of the spell to use.

[Kurald Galain]

Just remember that you can't do this until you can metamagic frostbite without increasing the casting time. Unlike spellstrike, spell combat does require standard or less casting time of the spell to use.

Good point. There is a feat for that: Spontaneous Metafocus.

[nmitchell2]

Good point. There is a feat for that: Spontaneous Metafocus.

Which I pick up at 5th. I'm strongly considering taking the build in a different direction, that of natural attacks. If I were to do that, I would take either the Draconic or Abyssal bloodlines and probably Lore Oracle for Cha to AC. That's all I got really, any other ideas for how to go about this?