Gestalt rules

[In4Dimensions]

If I’m building a Psion//Erudite gestalt character, can I manifest powers that I learned from being a Erudite as a Psion? Example: I learn Inertial Armor from Erudite. I don’t want to use a unique slot on it. Can I manifest it as a psion, because it’s on the psion power list?

[Nifft]

If I’m building a Psion//Erudite gestalt character, can I manifest powers that I learned from being a Erudite as a Psion? Example: I learn Inertial Armor from Erudite. I don’t want to use a unique slot on it. Can I manifest it as a psion, because it’s on the psion power list?

Nope. Each class has its own Powers Known list. If you don't know the power on the Psion side, you can't manifest it on the Psion side.

Furthermore, you'd be shafted by having only one PP pool, and only getting Int to PP once.

Psion // Erudite is a poor gestalt.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Nope. Each class has its own Powers Known list. If you don't know the power on the Psion side, you can't manifest it on the Psion side.True.


Furthermore, you'd be shafted by having only one PP pool, and only getting Int to PP once.You gain the pp from both sides, the same as you'd get spell slots from two Vancian classes. They do pool together, however.


Psion // Erudite is a poor gestalt.You can't gestalt psion with erudite anyway, since they're both types of psion. Erudite is a variant psion.

[Nifft]

You gain the pp from both sides, the same as you'd get spell slots from two Vancian classes.

I think they overlap, just as all other identical features overlap, and you only get the maximum value from one side or the other.

Cleric spells aren't the same feature as Wizard spells, so those don't overlap -- but if you were a Cleric 4 // Paladin 4, you'd only get one Turn Undead pool, and it would not be double-size.

Turn Undead attempts overlap with Turn Undead attempts; Power Points overlap with Power Points.

[JNAProductions]

I think they overlap, just as all other identical features overlap, and you only get the maximum value from one side or the other.

Cleric spells aren't the same feature as Wizard spells, so those don't overlap -- but if you were a Cleric 4 // Paladin 4, you'd only get one Turn Undead pool, and it would not be double-size.

Turn Undead attempts overlap with Turn Undead attempts; Power Points overlap with Power Points.

I don't think that's accurate.

Edit: It's not necessarily an unreasonable thing to do-Psionics is dang powerful. But if you have, say, a Wizard//Archivist in the same party, I see no reason to shaft the Psion.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I think they overlap, just as all other identical features overlap, and you only get the maximum value from one side or the other.

Cleric spells aren't the same feature as Wizard spells, so those don't overlap -- but if you were a Cleric 4 // Paladin 4, you'd only get one Turn Undead pool, and it would not be double-size.
But they're not identical. Psions gain X number of power points, while psychic warriors gain Y, just like you gain some spell slots from wizard and some from sorcerer. In fact, the psionic rules specifically state that pools from separate classes stack, which takes precedence over the gestalt rules, since the gestalt rules are general and the psionic rules are specific.


Turn Undead attempts overlap with Turn Undead attempts; Power Points overlap with Power Points.In that case, spell slots overlap with spell slots.

From the sounds of things, this ruling is specifically to screw over manifesters, despite the very specific rules in the XPH. Either do the same with spellcasters to make things more even, or allow manifesters to keep their class features that specifically pool together.

[Nifft]

I don't think that's accurate.

Edit: It's not necessarily an unreasonable thing to do-Psionics is dang powerful. But if you have, say, a Wizard//Archivist in the same party, I see no reason to shaft the Psion.



The Power Point Reserve

Psionic characters fuel their abilities through a pool, or reserve, of power points. Your power point reserve is equal to your base power points gained from your class, bonus power points from a high key ability score (see Abilities and Manifesters, below), and any additional bonus power points from sources such as your character race and feat selections.

Multiclass Psionic Characters

If you have levels in more than one psionic class, you combine your power points from each class to make up your reserve. You can use these power points to manifest powers from any psionic class you have.

While you maintain a single reserve of power points from your class, race, and feat selections, you are still limited by the manifester level you have achieved with each power you know.




Class Features

A gestalt character gains the class features of both classes. A 1st-level gestalt rogue/cleric, for example, gets sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding, 1st-level cleric spells, and the ability to turn or rebuke undead. Class- and ability-based restrictions (such as arcane spell failure chance and a druid’s prohibition on wearing metal armor) apply normally to a gestalt character, no matter what the other class is.

A gestalt character follows a similar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels. Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics. A few caveats apply, however.

• Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.

• Gestalt characters with more than one spellcasting class keep track of their spells per day separately.

• A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it’s available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters.
(latter emphasis added)

Looks pretty explicit to me.

Class features that two classes share accrue at the rate of the faster class.

You have one power point pool; it is the same feature for both classes, unlike Powers Known or Unique Powers per Day.

I love Psionics, but it's not a good fit for both sides of Gestalt -- unless you change the way Gestalt works, which may be valid since it's a variant rule from a toobox book in the first place.

Plus, as Maxi says, Erudite is a variant Psion, so that's prima face illegal -- it's like trying to run a gestalt Conjurer // Transmuter.


In that case, spell slots overlap with spell slots.

Spell slots have a special exemption, see above.

[In4Dimensions]

Except that in Complete Psion, the Erudite is presented as a different class, with different skills, different powers learned, etc.

[Nifft]

Except that in Complete Psion, the Erudite is presented as a different class, with different skills, different powers learned, etc.

Why risk being condescending if you haven't actually fact-checked your assertion?


Just take a cursory look at the table of contents of Complete Psionic:

https://i.imgur.com/Kpq9ko9.png

Look at the actual page:

https://i.imgur.com/9TqDf4j.png

The Erudite is a variant Psion.

[In4Dimensions]

Why risk being condescending if you haven't actually fact-checked your assertion?


Just take a cursory look at the table of contents of Complete Psionic:

https://i.imgur.com/Kpq9ko9.png

Look at the actual page:

https://i.imgur.com/9TqDf4j.png

The Erudite is a variant Psion.
They’re not distinctively different classes? A Erudite isn’t the same as an Evoker, for example.

[Nifft]

They’re not distinctively different classes? A Erudite isn’t the same as an Evoker, for example.

An Erudite is a variant Psion.

You can't Gestalt a class with its own variant.

That's right in the first line of the Gestalt character-building rules:



To make a 1st-level gestalt character, choose two standard classes. (You can also choose any of the variant classes, though you can’t combine two versions of the same class.) Build your character according to the following guidelines.

[In4Dimensions]

An Erudite is a variant Psion.

You can't Gestalt a class with its own variant.

That's right in the first line of the Gestalt character-building rules:
Oh. :smallfrown:

[Nifft]

Oh. :smallfrown:

It's not that bad though.

Doubling up on active powers (like spells or psionics) usually isn't as good as matching two different classes which each compensate for the weaknesses of the other.

For example, Monk // Wizard is generally better than Wizard // Wizard, even though on its own Monk sucks.

For similar reasons, a Warblade // Psion is probably stronger & more survivable overall than a double-Psion would be. The Warblade side gives you better HD, armor & weapon proficiencies, all-day at-will abilities (which aren't as good as your nova psi powers, but which are much cheaper in terms of expenditure), and defenses including Fort saves, Int to Reflex, and some really good Counters.

Or a Factotum // Erudite, or... yeah.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

(latter emphasis added)

Looks pretty explicit to me.

Class features that two classes share accrue at the rate of the faster class.

You have one power point pool; it is the same feature for both classes, unlike Powers Known or Unique Powers per Day.

I love Psionics, but it's not a good fit for both sides of Gestalt -- unless you change the way Gestalt works, which may be valid since it's a variant rule from a toobox book in the first place.

Plus, as Maxi says, Erudite is a variant Psion, so that's prima face illegal -- it's like trying to run a gestalt Conjurer // Transmuter.

Spell slots have a special exemption, see above.And power points already pool together by default.


It's not that bad though.

Doubling up on active powers (like spells or psionics) usually isn't as good as matching two different classes which each compensate for the weaknesses of the other.

For example, Monk // Wizard is generally better than Wizard // Wizard, even though on its own Monk sucks.

For similar reasons, a Warblade // Psion is probably stronger & more survivable overall than a double-Psion would be. The Warblade side gives you better HD, armor & weapon proficiencies, all-day at-will abilities (which aren't as good as your nova psi powers, but which are much cheaper in terms of expenditure), and defenses including Fort saves, Int to Reflex, and some really good Counters.

Or a Factotum // Erudite, or... yeah.Actually, psionic classes gestalt really well, even though both sides would be active classes. Psionics is so ridiculously good at abusing the action economy it's patently ridiculous. Whether pre-buffing, synchronicity, Linked Power, Twin Power, Quicken Power, a mere 6th level for temporal acceleration (the psionic version of time stop), anticipatory strike, schism, even having a psicrystal with overlapping affinity fields, and more, psionics has a huge number of ways to leverage one's powers into actions.

Granted, it's always good to branch out and have more options, so getting a different secondary class would be a good thing, but action economy definitely isn't an argument against gestalting two manifesting classes together.