Monk homebrew subclass - Way of the Vengeful Wave

[Chibachiva]

Hi everybody!

Hi!
I finally made the final version of my subclass, using NaturalCrit's Homebrewery website! Here's the link to see it!
[http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/SkWRtVHFVG

This is my first try at making a subclass and I must first of all thank my DM Daniel Leroux for his help. I wasn't satisfied with the options the player handbook gave me, so I went ahead and "created" this subclass (this is more about putting together pieces of other subclasses than actually creating something entirely new). My main idea was to create a type of monk that would be an evasive tank applying crowd control to it's enemies, while keeping a certain offensive edge to his defence.

By the way, I would like to also thank HalfMetalJacket for his Way of the Empty Mind creation. Very special thanks to Lalliman and Composer99 for their phrasing advices!! They helped me a lot, as well as the Giant in the Playground website, DnDWiki. Links will be at the end of the post.

It took me a few months, but I think the final result is fairly balanced (I'll let you be the judge of that, however). I'm open to changes and I welcome every constructive comments, as it is the main reason I'm posting this here. So, if you have any question, go ahead! And if you test it, let me know what you found out about it!

Way of the Vengeful Wave

Monks of the Vengeful Wave are evasive and unforgiving. Just like water, their objective is to be formless, adapting themselves to the situation and returning their foes' strength against themselves. Soft and hard, full and empty, mind and body, these monks are ever-changing, flowing like a mighty river.

White Crane Spreads its Wings -
You've learned to take advantage of your opponents' mistakes. Beginning when you choose this tradition at 3rd level, whenever you are benefiting from your Patient Defense feature, if a creature within 5 feet of you misses you with a melee weapon attack, you can spend 1 ki point and use your reaction to make an unarmed strike targeting the triggering creature with advantage. In addition, provided your unarmed strike hits, you can choose to apply one of the following effects:
The target must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or be knocked prone.
The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pushed 15 feet away from you.
The target must succeed on its choice of a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check or it becomes grappled by you, as if you used the Grapple special attack on it.

Moreover, beginning at 11th level, whenever you use this feature, you can spend up to 2 ki points to make two unarmed strikes, each against a separate triggering attack. Beginning at 17th level, you can instead spend up to 3 ki points to make three unarmed strikes, each against a separate triggering attack.

Know yourself, Know Your Enemy... -
After many years of meditation, you learned more about your own and other people's body. You can now spend 1 minute in or out of combat to watch your enemy's techniques. The DM tells you if the creature is your equal, superior, or inferior in regard to two of the following characteristics of your choice: Strength score; Dexterity score; Constitution score; Armor Class; current hit points; total class levels (if any); monk class levels (if any). In addition, you no longer need to spend ki points to use Patient Defense.

... And Victory Will Be Assured -
Starting at 11th level, you can use your action to provoke creatures hostile to you if they are within 30 feet of you and can see or hear you. An affected target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw, using your ki saving throw DC, or it has disadvantage on attack rolls against creatures other than you until your next turn.

Vengeful Wave -
At 17th level, as an action, you can spend 4 ki points to strike the ground, creating a powerful wave that bursts from your space in a 30-foot radius. Each creature caught in the wave must make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, the target takes 10d8 bludgeoning damage, is pushed 30 feet away from you and knocked prone. On a successful save, the target takes half as much damage and is not knocked prone nor pushed.

Note : Click on the link at the beginning of the post to see the credits!

[JNAProductions]

The level 6 feature is absolutely insane. Dodge as a bonus action, with no cost? That's brokenly good.

[Lalliman]

I wouldn't call the free Dodge game-breaking by itself. It still costs your bonus action, which the monk relies on for 30-50% of his damage output. It is, however, very powerful in combination with White Crane Spreads Its Wings. The counter-attack alone offsets the loss of damage from spending your bonus action to dodge, and you get advantage on the attack roll and a rider effect on top of that. You basically get the benefit of both Open Hand Flurry and Patient Defence for the price of one. It's a difficult comparison, but it seems considerably more useful than, say, Wholeness of Body. I'm not sure about an easy fix, but it's worth reconsidering the interaction between the two.

You should also reconsider the way in which your abilities are worded. WCSIW doesn't actually name a trigger to the counterattack, which leaves it perilously open to interpretation. Can you counterattack someone who tries to grapple you? Can you make a ranged counterattack against a ranged attacker? When does the counterattack take place, before or after the trigger? The fluff seems to imply that it happens afterwards, but since opportunity attacks and readied actions take place before the trigger, one could argue either way. It also doesn't say that the attack needs to hit for the rider to take effect. I suggest you check out the Berserker's Retaliation for a suggestion on the wording.

There are similar issues with Victory Will Be Assured. For one, there's no mention what kind of save it prompts. Secondly, the behaviour that it elicits is perilously vague. They have to come closer to the monk and attack him, so... can they just move five feet towards him and then shoot at him with a bow? Once they've attacked him once, are they then free to attack other people again? Does throwing a fireball at the monk count as attacking? What about casting Entangle? Can the effect be used on people who never had any intention to fight you? Does the target need to see or hear you?

Really, I always advise against using compulsion-like taunting abilities, because they're sure to lead to myriad loopholes. Instead, consider giving the target disadvantage on attacks against anyone who isn't the monk. See the Bear Totem Barbarian and the Compelled Duel spell for inspiration.

The final line of VWBA is again ambiguous. Does the second counterattack require a new trigger and a new ki payment, or can you make two counterattacks in a row in response to a single attack? A better wording for what I assume you mean is: Once per round, you can make a counterattack with White Crane Spreads Its Wings without spending your reaction.

Vengeful Wave seems fine (aside from the counterattack part, as stated above). Only there's a more convenient way to phrase it, namely: "Once per long rest, you can use your action and spend 4 ki points to strike the ground,..." Starting the description of an active ability without saying what it is is rather confusing. Also, having a once per rest limit and a high ki cost seems excessive.

That's my input. Mainly a lot of technical issues, which admittedly are easy to overlook if you're not a seasoned cruncher. The concept is cool, and the RAI (Rules As Intended) seem close to balanced.

[Chibachiva]

The level 6 feature is absolutely insane. Dodge as a bonus action, with no cost? That's brokenly good.

The free dodge is not so free, as the monk still has to spend 1 ki point plus his reaction to counter-attack, disabling him from using an attack of opportunity or deflect missile. The monk is also missing on his martial arts ability or his flurry of blows, limiting his own ability to do damage during this round. Plus the fact that maybe the adversary won't even attack the monk, maybe changing his/her target to someone else, rendering the dodge useless.

Thanks for the feedback though! I'm excited that people participate!!

[Chibachiva]

Wow, thank you Lalliman for the answer!!!

I'm not exactly sure what is a rider effect, could you explain it to me? As for the interaction between the two, it was my intention to make the dodge and the counter-attack work together.

Good point on the wording, I'll modify that. It is indeed intended to be used after the trigger, which would be only at melee attack range, excluding the ranged option, and only when the adversary's attack missed (and wouldn't apply if the attack landed). For the ranged attack, there's already deflect missile for that and the monk should have to make a choice there, either use his reaction for deflect missile or keep it in case somebody else attacks him in melee. I honestly didn't think of a grapple, but I think I would consider it in the same category as other melee attacks (open to other opinions though! Let me know why this could be bad).

About the DC for VWBA, I think it should fall under a wisdom saving throw category. The way I saw it, the adversary is so infuriated that he forgets he was even fighting someone else before, in the same way a charmed spell could work.

About the movement, this should again only work on enemies with melee weapons, as ranged enemies or casters won't feel as compelled to move toward the monk, they simply want to hurt him, either with an arrow, a sword or a spell.

About the intention, generally speaking and for the sake of simplicity, I might be wrong but it is probably safe to assume that most of the time, enemies that are fighting the group are also probably going to fight against the monk.

I would limit the counter-attack to only affect one adversary for one attack, so the monk wouldn't be able to make 3 counter-attacks when the adversary only made one. I only pumped up the number of counter-attacks in order to keep up with the higher number of attacks at higher levels and the higher possibility of being attacked by more enemies (especially with VWBA).

I actually used the Compelled spell for inspiration but will look into the Barbarian Bear Totem. The point of this ability is to force enemies to attack the monk, as a major flaw (at least from my point of view) is that all of this could be easily countered by simply attacking the monk's allies instead of him. I'll try to make a better wording, but if I'm not able to make it in a satisfying way, I might change it to what you said (giving disadvantage to attacking allies instead of the monk).

I'll use your phrasing, if you don't mind! I didn't think my wording and the language barrier would be so disabling, my bad :P I agree that a long rest seems a bit far fetched, but I was worried that a monk would spam this ability every round (hence the 4 ki points, too).

[Composer99]

Overall, I really like the feel of this subclass. Basically, what it's setting up is the feeling of trading away your Flurry of Blows for Patient Defence, and getting counter-attacks in place of Flurry. You can end up with more counter-attacks than Flurry attacks, but it's not guaranteed.

It's an interesting trade-off, and I like it.

I would say that overall, the features' wording could use work. A close reading of the And Victory Will Be Assured feature, in particular, suggests it needs work, of which more shortly.



Way of the Vengeful Wave

Monks of the Vengeful Wave are evasive and unforgiving. Just like water, they want to be formless, adapting themselves to the situation and returning their foes' strength against themselves.

Level 3 White Crane Spreads its Wings -
The monk learned to take advantage of his opponents' mistakes. While in Patient Defence, you can choose to perform a counter-attack with advantage whenever a creature within 5 feet of you missed its melee weapon attack against you. Use your martial arts die for damage, costing a ki point and your reaction. The monk can then impose one of the following effects on the opponent.
a) It must make a Dexterity saving throw or be knocked prone
b) It must make a Strength saving throw or be pushed away 15 feet
c) It must make a Dexterity check or be considered grappled


It's not clear whether the extra effects you can choose (these three are the 'rider' effects of which Lalliman wrote) apply whether you hit or miss, or on a hit. I'm assuming on a hit? Also, the base grapple ability allows the target its choice of Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) to contest the grapple, so I would consider allowing that with this feature as well.

I would suggest changing the wording for this feature to something like the following:

You've learned to take advantage of your opponents' mistakes. Beginning when you choose this tradition at 3rd level, whenever you are benefiting from your Patient Defense feature, if a creature within 5 feet of you misses you with a melee weapon attack, you can spend 1 ki point and use your reaction to make an unarmed strike targeting the triggering creature. In addition, provided your unarmed strike hits, you can choose to apply one of the following effects:

The target must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or be knocked prone.
The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pushed 15 feet away from you.
The target must succeed on its choice of a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check or it becomes grappled by you, as if you used the Grapple special attack on it.



After going through all the other higher-level features, I would suggest that you fold all the scaling of this feature into this feature, like so:

Beginning at 11th level, whenever you use this feature, you can spend up to 2 ki points to make two unarmed strikes, each against a separate triggering attack. Beginning at 17th level, you can instead spend up to 3 ki points to make three unarmed strikes, each against a separate triggering attack.

This makes it clear that these additional counterattacks are an upgrade to this feature, and not something that you get only when you use those features - unless that is your intent, in which case you might want to make it a bit clearer.



Level 6 Know yourself, know your enemy... -
After many years of meditation, the monk learns more about his own and other people's body. You can now spend 1 minute in or out of combat to watch your enemy's techniques. Your DM then tells you if the adversary's abilities are equal to, stronger or weaker than yours, regarding Strength ability score, Dexterity ability score, Constitution ability score, it's AC, it's current HP and it's total levels (if any). In addition, Patient Defence doesn't cost a ki point to activate anymore.

Other than the modifier to Patient Defense, this feature is, of course, based on the Battlemaster's Know Your Enemy feature. Your feature is stronger, in that you can learn all of the pertinent details, rather than just one of them (as per the Battlemaster feature) - and you get it at 6th level, to boot (where the Battlemaster's Know Your Enemy arrives at 7th level).

To be honest, I think the Battlemaster Know Your Enemy is pretty weaksauce and needs buffing, so I don't have any complaints about your feature. At any rate, its 1 minute "casting time" means it's basically an out-of-combat feature anyway, since most combats are over in less than 1 minute/10 rounds. If you want to bring this in line with the Battlemaster feature, reword the Know Your Enemy portion to something like this:

The DM tells you if the creature is your equal, superior, or inferior in regard to two of the following characteristics of your choice: Strength score; Dexterity score; Constitution score; Armor Class; current hit points; total class levels (if any); fighter class levels (if any).

I would suggest rewording the Patient Defense portion as follows:

In addition, you no longer need to spend ki points to use Patient Defense.



Level 11 ... And Victory Will Be Assured -
Confident in your own abilities, you can now provoke your adversaries if they are in a 30 feet radius of you, forcing them to leave their current area to move closer to you if they are using melee weapons and attack him. This ability uses the monk's ki save DC, is considered a wisdom saving throw and costs an action. An enemy is immune to this effect if it can't see or hear you.
Moreover, the monk can now perform a second counter-attack while in Patient Defence. This requires another missed melee weapon attack and a second ki point to activate.
Note : The adversary's movement can provoke an attack of opportunity from nearby allies if adversaries were in their reach but could also attract the attention of ranged enemies and casters. Those enemies wouldn't have to move but would spend their action to attack the monk if they failed their save DC.

If you make the 'taunt' effect use ki points, then I think it's fine if this feature actually imposes a forced movement effect on your opponents and draw them towards you. Otherwise, I concur with others that a 'soft taunt' effect, such as imposing disadvantage on attacks that don't target you, is better. (Apropos of compelled duel, it's worth noting that that spell doesn't actually force the opponent to move towards you, although it does force it to stay within 30 feet if it fails saving throws.)

Also, it seems needlessly complicated differentiating between enemies with melee weapons versus enemies with ranged weapons or spellcasting, especially since all this is happening outside your opponents' turns.

Now I read through it more carefully, what's going on with "Confident in your own abilities, you can now provoke your adversaries if they are in a 30 feet radius of you, forcing them to leave their current area to move closer to you if they are using melee weapons and attack him."? Are your opponents getting free melee weapon attacks against you?

If not, what this feature is doing, as written, is drawing opponents who are wielding melee weapons at the time you use it, into close range. That's probably fine. Either that or the soft taunt, you probably don't need both.

Finally, as noted above, I'd suggest getting rid of the upgrade to White Crane (etc.) in this feature and including it in its own description.

The wording also needs work. I'd suggest something more like the following (using your implementation of the feature):

Starting at 11th level, you can use your action to provoke creatures hostile to you within 30 feet of you that can see or hear you. An affected target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw, using your ki saving throw DC, or move to within 5 feet of you. This movement provokes opportunity attacks as normal.

If you go with more of a 'soft taunt' effect, which you probably need, it could be this instead:

Starting at 11th level, you can use your action to provoke creatures hostile to you if they are within 30 feet of you and can see or hear you. An affected target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw, using your ki saving throw DC, or it has disadvantage on attack rolls against creatures other than you until your next turn.



Level 17 Vengeful Wave -
The monk strikes the ground, causing vengeful water to sweep away from him. Once per long rest, you can use your action and spend 4 ki points to force each creature in a 30 feet radius to succeed a Dexterity saving throw or take 10d8 water damage, be pushed 30 feet away and knocked prone. An adversary that makes its saving throw takes half damage and is not knocked prone or pushed away. This costs 4 ki points, is considered an action and can only be used once every long rest. Additionally, the monk can now perform three counter-attacks while in Patient Defence.

The Open Hand 17th-level feature can affect one target and costs 3 ki, but it can be used at will as long as you end the effect early enough.

So this ability could be used either at will, or on a 1-2 times per short rest basis, and I think it would still be fine.

Also, it strikes me that a Strength saving throw would be more appropriate.

Just as with And Victory Will Be Assured, the upgrade to White Crane should be included in its own feature text, rather than here.

There's no such thing as water damage, although there can be if you mean to homebrew it. Since the wave is forcefully pushing your foes, I'm assuming it's meant to be bludgeoning damage?

I'd consider re-wording it to (using your implementation without any of my suggestions):

At 17th level, as an action, you can spend 4 ki points to strike the ground, creating a powerful wave that bursts from your space in a 30-foot radius. Each creature caught in the wave must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the target takes 10d8 bludgeoning damage and is pushed 30 feet away from you and knocked prone. On a successful save, the target takes half as much damage and is otherwise unaffected. After using this feature, you must finish a long rest before you can use it again.

[Chibachiva]

Holy Molly, Composer 99!!!!! That's amazing!!!! Thank you so much!
I'll probably make the corrections tonight!

[Chibachiva]

Alright! I made a few changes, following what Composer99 mentioned! I like the direction this is going :) It's getting clearer, and that's thanks to your contributions!

So that's a rider effect! Ha! Good to know!

As for WCSIW, you assumed correctly, as it was indeed intended to be on a hit! About the grapple, I think the rules mention it is a contest of Acrobatics or Athletics, like you said. I'd very much like the monk to be able to make this contest based on his own Dexterity, rather than Strength. If the opponent chooses Strength, does this mean that the character would also have to perform a Strength check?

About KYEKY, I like the idea of only choosing 2 of the informations, or at least some of the informations. In real life, one minute is a short amount of time to decipher if a potential adversary is stronger, faster, etc, than you are, I guess. I also changed fighter level for monk level, as I thought it would make more sense (A master observing his opponent's techniques, pretty cool!)

I also took in the softer version of the taunt, as it was getting too complicated. I'd rather make it easier for DMs to keep track of the battle.

You made a valid point about the OH final technique, so I took away the per rest part. The amount of ki however I feel is appropriate, as this ability can affect a wide number of foes, contrary to Quivering Palm.

Thanks again for the help!

[Lalliman]

As for WCSIW, you assumed correctly, as it was indeed intended to be on a hit! About the grapple, I think the rules mention it is a contest of Acrobatics or Athletics, like you said. I'd very much like the monk to be able to make this contest based on his own Dexterity, rather than Strength. If the opponent chooses Strength, does this mean that the character would also have to perform a Strength check?
It's the attacker's Athletics vs the defender's Athletics or Acrobatics. You can't initiate a grapple with Dexterity, though some people homebrew that in as part of the Martial Arts feature.

Applying the grapple rider with a save should be fine, since the prone and push riders deviate from the rules in exactly the same way. In that case I would make it a Strength save; you've already touched your opponent with your attack, so a Dex save to avoid is moot.

That being said, this option isn't very good compared to the others. Given that grappling keys of Strength, most enemies will have a better than average chance of breaking free on the first round, should they want to. That's worth considering.

[Chibachiva]

In that case, I don't think I would change anything to the grapple mechanism. I think having one of the three option being less interesting than the others is inevitable. The main reason why I chose grapple was to better represent a fight scene, as it is quite common in martial arts to just grab your opponent. However, in DnD, it could only come to use if an adversary tries to run away and you want to prevent that from happening. Mostly flavor let's say.

On the other hand, I just found this guide about grappling, giving tips about it, so you might want to take a look on the ENWorld website (still can't put links in my posts)
~The Grappler's Manual~
Taking 5th Edition Combat to the Ground (2.0)

[SwordMeow]

"When you use your Patient Defense feature and a creature misses you with a melee weapon attack, you...unarmed strike against the creature" and no need for advantage; This is just Open Hand monk but on a reaction attack? I'd recommend other things for its mechanics
It appears you are missing a 6th level feature
there's no "triggering attacks", use different wording. Oh, I realized this is functionally multiple reaction attacks; I would recommend restricting it to 1 reaction, but you can do multiple attacks with that 1 reaction agains the creature that hit you: "Beginning at 11th level, whenever you make an unarmed strike as a reaction, you can spend 2 ki points to make a second unarmed strike against the same creature. At 17th level, you can spend an additional 2 ki points to make a third unarmed strike."
There is no in or out of combat mechanical distinction
I would recommend not copying battlemaster's feature and use something else, though it can be close
11th is fine
capstone is a capstone

[Chibachiva]

"When you use your Patient Defense feature and a creature misses you with a melee weapon attack, you...unarmed strike against the creature" and no need for advantage; This is just Open Hand monk but on a reaction attack? I'd recommend other things for its mechanics
It appears you are missing a 6th level feature
there's no "triggering attacks", use different wording. Oh, I realized this is functionally multiple reaction attacks; I would recommend restricting it to 1 reaction, but you can do multiple attacks with that 1 reaction agains the creature that hit you: "Beginning at 11th level, whenever you make an unarmed strike as a reaction, you can spend 2 ki points to make a second unarmed strike against the same creature. At 17th level, you can spend an additional 2 ki points to make a third unarmed strike."
There is no in or out of combat mechanical distinction
I would recommend not copying battlemaster's feature and use something else, though it can be close
11th is fine
capstone is a capstone

Hi SwordMeow!
Thanks for the feedback and sorry for the late reply!
The advantage is mostly to make up for the lack of offensive abilities early on, since you normally would have a martial art attack or a flurry of blows. I'd be happy to read what you would recommend for other mechanics, but don't forget that this subclass is built around the patient defence ability.
The level 6 ability Know Yourself is arguably less attractive than other levels. Saving a ki point each time you go in Patient Defence might not seem a big help, especially since the monk regains them on a short rest (though that depends on your DM and how much short rests he allows). However, many other subclasses were just the same at about this level and most have a "fluff" ability, just to give a better feeling of the subclass. I also feel like the other levels largely make up for it.
I understand your thought about putting the counter-attack against only one enemy and making it so there would be multiple counters. It could be viable but for a more "one-on-one" type of monk, less toward fighting many adversaries. Then again, I'd rather keep a more defensive option on many enemies and limiting 1 counter-attack for one enemy attack, as it fits better with the level 11 feature and making sure the damage per round stays at a slightly less than normal level (for the monk).
Go ahead for any suggestions you might have for a replacement of the battle master feature!

What would you guys think of a meditative feature at sixth level instead? Something like adding your wisdom modifier to your initiative or something like that?

Have a nice day!

[Chibachiva]

Hey guys, I'm back!
I'm thinking of changing the level 6 feature for something more unique. I think I'd keep the ki cost feature but change the battle master thingy for this : a free (as in, no ki cost) +1 bonus to AC for [your Wisdom modifier] rounds, usable once per short rest. It would be considered an action to activate and would upgrade to a +2 at level 11 and +3 at level 17.

What do you guys think about that?

[Chibachiva]

Hi!
Big changes! I switched lvl 6 and 3 abilities, making the subclass less ki starved at early levels and still fitting in the original spirit/idea. I also completely took out the taunt mechanic, as I finally came to the conclusion that the subclass didn't really need it. I left the older version, so you could use either version if you prefer the previous one.
I made the final version using NaturalCrit's Homebrewery website! Here's the link to see it!
http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/SkWRtVHFVG