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Kiero
2007-08-20, 05:47 PM
Forget that Black Industries is producing 40KRP: Dark Heresy as we speak for now. Let's imagine you're about to play, or indeed run a game set in the Warhammer 40,000 universe.

If you're GMing it, what's the focus? Is it about stuff going on inside the Imperium, or beyond its borders? Are the protagonists humans or xenos-breeds? Is this an action-oriented game? What would be your system of choice?

If you're playing, what's your character of choice? What kinds of things would you be hoping would be going on? What would be your preferred system?

If possible can we avoid the usual interminable arguments about whether or not Marines are suitable PC material and the like. Fine talk about whether or not you'd have them in your games, but please refrain from telling other people they should or shouldn't be allowing them.

horseboy
2007-08-20, 05:53 PM
While playing Apothecary Gilligus of the Raven Guard Chapter would be cool, I'm pretty sure they're not allowing marines until far later in the series.

For start? Hmmmmmm........

Some way to work in my Treadheadedness. Maybe a lascannon ace for a Leman Russ? Granted no sane GM is going to allow a LR, but at least it would be a fun story.

Neon Knight
2007-08-20, 05:59 PM
First off:

The players and DM come together and collectively pick a faction/race. All player characters come from that faction or race. One game, we're all guardsmen. Next game, we're all orks. Next, we're all Inquisitorial Stormtroopers. Next week, Space Marines. Continue this flavor of the week one shot method until all options have been exhausted.

As for the game style: Action. That's all 40k is really good for. Shooting and killing stuff in interesting ways.

System? I dunno. Maybe D20 Modern?

Exarch
2007-08-20, 06:09 PM
I really think it'd depend on what my group wanted to do.

I like the idea of playing as an Inquistor + retinue or a Storm Trooper kill team. With the Inquisitor, it provides everything from suspense to genocide, whereas with the Stormies you can have a lot of fun as far as tactical combat goes (imo, you'd be more geared up for it rather than with an Inquisitorial game). Also, as an Inquisitor you can make up some excuse to have one or two xenoes in the entourage.

A rogue trader would likely be similiar to the Inquisitor, with less "kill, burn, purge!"

Playing as a Space Marine would be kind of fun, but it'd get silly after a little while. Staying human, or Eldar or Tau, would be more interesting, as it (should) be easier to die with them.

Playing as Eldar would be difficult, because their main combatants are Aspect Warriors, and they'd have such an alien way of thinking (even more so than regular Eldar), that it could prove difficult without some ironing out. And even then, I don't see members of different aspects working together. One aspect warrior + rangers/guardians + Warlock/Farseer? Sure.

Tau would be fun too. I think that'd be more combat, as their don't have as much inter-race intrigue as the Imperium and Eldar. But you could play as a mech!

I generally feel that Chaos shouldn't be playable, as it'd be difficult and down right annoying without smart players.

As for the rules set? D20 future, probably. I have a link that someone converted for it (there's an errata for it, but I'm not sure where it is. Balances out the absurd weapon damages).

horseboy
2007-08-20, 06:17 PM
System? I dunno. Maybe D20 Modern?

http://www.blackindustries.com/?template=40k

Keep up with the times, man! They've got their own game. :smallcool:

Neon Knight
2007-08-20, 06:18 PM
Forget that Black Industries is producing 40KRP: Dark Heresy as we speak for now.

Hence why I suggested D20 Modern.

Kiero
2007-08-20, 06:34 PM
While playing Apothecary Gilligus of the Raven Guard Chapter would be cool, I'm pretty sure they're not allowing marines until far later in the series.

Like I said in the OP, forget what Black Industries are doing for the purposes of this thread. It's about what you'd want to run/play.

Rigel Cyrosea
2007-08-20, 06:46 PM
I'm currently running a 40K game.

It's an Inquisitor and retinue idea, with the focus on investigation and discovery of a chaos cult. It's set on an Imperial world. The system we use is the one linked in my signature. (heavily modified d20 future)
My players are:
A Space Marine of the White Scars chapter, focusing on close combat.
A Sanctioned Imperial Psycher.
An ex-Seeress Bounty Hunter.
A tough, former Imperial Gaurd, Bodygaurd.

I homebrewed a Space Marine Advanced Class, which the character takes levels in until he becomes a full Space Marine. (After six levels) The Space Marine we have is actually not a full battle brother yet (he only has 5 levels of the class), and can't wear power armour due to the lack of a Black Carapce.

We haven't been going that long yet, but it's worked out fine so far.

R4ph
2007-08-20, 06:51 PM
I played in a 40k game once on a different forum. We were playing an "elite" squad within the Chancers, sent into a downed ship to retrieve a chimera while the rest of them died outside. Was good fun, GM used GURPS, but we were more or less free forming it and he added the mechanics later. I was playing a pyromaniac demolitions expert who'd ended up in the Chancers after burning down a building during a stealth op.

horseboy
2007-08-20, 07:07 PM
Hence why I suggested D20 Modern.

Woops, missed that part. :smallredface:
Hm, yeah, still have to go Space master. Nothing like dead is dead. Especially with an "H" shrapnel crit. :smallbiggrin:

Bassetking
2007-08-20, 07:24 PM
I would run an Orky game. More Dakka. More Choppa. Da' Red wunz go fasta' and da' blue wunz iz more lucky.

Gorkamorka!

WAAAAGH!

Xuincherguixe
2007-08-20, 07:41 PM
I've kind of been following 40,000 but I haven't spent any real money on it (depending on how you count some of the video games).

Now, since I don't know that much about the game I shouldn't be designing it. But if I was for whatever reason I would write the rules as reasonably open ended character creation wise. Write up stats for just about everything, and the GM can decide what's appropriate.

Chances are, that'll be create characters within a faction. And lets be honest that will almost certainly be Space Marines. They're probably the most playable rather than least from what I can tell. Still, I'd try and make it playable for any faction even if it doesn't make sense.

I'd really want to find some way of getting a group of Chaos players to work. I loves me the Chaos.

Sulecrist
2007-08-20, 07:53 PM
I ran an Inquisition game. I can't say anything about the mechanics, but it went well.

The party infiltrated an opera house to stop a cult of Nurgle from circulating daemon-possessed condoms. I think that was the high point of the first adventure arc. :smallbiggrin:

Zak3056
2007-08-20, 08:12 PM
Some way to work in my Treadheadedness. Maybe a lascannon ace for a Leman Russ? Granted no sane GM is going to allow a LR, but at least it would be a fun story.

Oh, I dunno--if you had a relatively small group, it'd probably be a fun game to have the players as the crew of a Russ. Just because you have a tank doesn't make you invincible, and there are plenty of stories to be told here (for an example, see the movie Sahara... no, not the recent action flick, but the Bogart movie (or the Jim Belushi remake, if that's your thing.))

That said, I don't think I'd want to roleplay in the 40k universe. The backstory is just so... depressing. Makes for an excellent wargame, but not it's not so much of a "hey, wouldn't it be fun to BE there?!" title.

GunMage
2007-08-20, 08:19 PM
If I did a 40k game, it would be a bit different than the examples so far, because I would use the Rogue trader era fluff.

The pc's would be some sort of mecenaries, and would probably wear power armor.

I would use living steel's rule.

Oh, and demon possesed condoms. Yeah. I am so stealing that.:smalltongue:

horseboy
2007-08-20, 08:21 PM
That said, I don't think I'd want to roleplay in the 40k universe. The backstory is just so... depressing. Makes for an excellent wargame, but not it's not so much of a "hey, wouldn't it be fun to BE there?!" title.

Hmm...You know what would be cool? To actually role play there but be a small organization that's dedicated to making everybody's lives better. To push back the darkness and attempt to rekindle the warm light of humanity's soul. Then find out you were chaos cultists all along. Damn you Tzeentch!

Xuincherguixe
2007-08-20, 08:37 PM
That said, I don't think I'd want to roleplay in the 40k universe. The backstory is just so... depressing. Makes for an excellent wargame, but not it's not so much of a "hey, wouldn't it be fun to BE there?!" title.

Well, Call of Cthulhu is pretty popular and that's way more depressing. Even with it's population of trillions, if you're a human you're at least very slightly useful to someone or something.

Shadowrun is kind of taking a beating, and the bleakness of that setting varies a fair amount. Though I suppose that's likely in a Warhammer 40,000 game too. In one session it may be that a stray round can kill you, in another you might make the whole universe a happy place somehow.


Bleak roleplaying can be a very interesting experience. Less laughing, but it often gets you thinking more.

Destro_Yersul
2007-08-20, 08:53 PM
Rogue trader/ Rogue trader's friends. Plenty of opportunity for sneakiness and bashing things there. Often both at the same time. I think that offers a lot of potential.

Zak3056
2007-08-20, 08:59 PM
Bleak roleplaying can be a very interesting experience. Less laughing, but it often gets you thinking more.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against darker settings (I've always particularly enjoyed Shadowrun and Call of Cthulhu, actually) but 40k is just so much... bleaker.

In most settings, individual acts can be meaningful (you may have gone insane while investigating something in CoC, but at least it usually counts for something.) In 40k, not so much--"Huzzah, we have killed all of the spawn of Chaos that have infested this world!" turns into the Inquisition saying "Nice job" as they warm up the bioweapons to exterminate you and everyone else on the planet. :)

It feels (to me) as if the only viable campaigns are either those that are FAR away from the main plotlines (the Humphrey Bogart/Leman Russ idea above) or be thrown directly into the thick of things (the Inquisitor squad idea above) which allows for more stability, lots of action, but little real consequence (we have banished Fgifhewk, deamon of Tzeentch! ... again ... until he comes back next week.) Anything in the middle seems doomed, since the setting wants to work against it.

Like I said, just a personal opinion... I'm sure others would get quite a bit out of it, but it's not so much for me. :smallsmile:

Xuincherguixe
2007-08-20, 09:01 PM
I think there's something to be said for say being a roving band of... somethings. Mercenaries? Pirates? Traders? One big advantage there is that it would be easy to have several characters of different races.

sikyon
2007-08-20, 10:05 PM
They met in a tavern. A radical inquisitor (With retinue), a Tau commando, Space Marine Captain, and an Eldar Farseer. On a primitive planet. They have to fight their way to the spaceport to commandeer a vessle and get the hell off. The planet has native Orks, hidden tomb of necrons, Dark Eldar Raiders, Chaos direct assault, and recently a Tyranid Hive ship crashed on the planet from local sector fighting.

The campain would be fighting their way through the Orks, then stumblig on the necrons OR nids. After that they reach urban outskirts to find Dark Eldar Slavers slaving away, fighting through which they must hold off a Chaos Assault until they Commandeer an Imperial Navy ship, which resists because it has troops on the ground but Inquisitor = Greater.

Classes would be like the following: Inquisitor - levels primarily through increased retinue size (may take NPC's) and enhanced psychic powers, Space Marine gains stat bonuses and feats like a fighter, Eldar gains psychic powers/able to summon allies from warp gates, Tau gets more Skills/Much Better equipment(only one able to use Tau weapons, which will generally be stronger). For the last one equipment delivery may be a problem.

Kiero
2007-08-21, 04:45 AM
That said, I don't think I'd want to roleplay in the 40k universe. The backstory is just so... depressing. Makes for an excellent wargame, but not it's not so much of a "hey, wouldn't it be fun to BE there?!" title.

Have you read any of the Black Library novels? In particular the Eisenhorn and Ravenor series' paint a very different picture of life inside the Imperium, away from the fronts. Lots of roleplaying potential and a lot less basic black depressing too.

Matthew
2007-08-21, 04:47 AM
I would run it as a Rogue Trader Game (i.e. the PCs are Rogue Traders in the 40K sense) and probably use a conversion of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay to run it, though D6 Space/D20 Future might also suffice.

Zorg
2007-08-21, 05:37 AM
I'd put one of the player's as Govenor of a Hive World, and things have been getting out of hand since a madman started a new religion based around the premise that a vast floating pudding would appear and make life better for everyone - the people have stopped working, even the military has been affected and he can only rely on his few closest associates (other players).

Yesterday he caught his mother reading a pamphlet entitled "The Pudding is Comming - ten reasons why you should believe". Have the setup that the prophet of the religion, the Rev Jeronimo Kipling, will be conducting a whisltestop tour of the run down city bottom district of Tumbletown. The governor and his disguised comrades have to assassinate him, pin it on a rival religious group (either the Anadentists or the Church of the Lucid Shirt Button), then escape.

Rogue Trader was awesome :smallbiggrin:

Otherwise have them as bountyhunters or mercenaries, allows for a bit of roaming and for greater variety in characters.

Death Giant
2007-08-21, 07:33 AM
I'd choose the Tau

Exarch
2007-08-21, 08:00 AM
You know what? I think Shadowrun may be a good system to use for it. Sure, you'd have to tweek it a bit...but it's pretty much there. Armor, deadly weapons, different races. But it'd have that really gritty feeling that a single bullet could kill you, something that d20 generally doesn't have.

dr.cello
2007-08-21, 08:16 AM
I've always loved the fluff of the rangers for the Eldar, though I am admittedly not the most knowledgeable person alive on matters 40k. But as I understand it, they left the Craftworld and aren't welcome back, so they wander, and see things man (or Eldar, in this case) were not meant to wot. Plenty of opportunity, there.

The biggest problem is the fluff is geared towards large-scale combat. Outside of the endless war in the grim darkness of the far future, we don't know that much about the world.

Funkyodor
2007-08-21, 09:09 AM
As a 40k player we tried bastardizing the 40K rules and do some RPGing using Witch Hunters w/ Guardsman bodyguards and one guy played a Vindicare Assassin against a renegade outpost turned Chaos (Alpha Legion); and we did a second one with Gaunts Ghosts against Tyranid outpost containing a Broodlord (they insisted on fighting it, I was gonna put a couple of normal Hormagaunts and a hidden Lictor...). We never thought of trying to house rule AD&D using Level Adjustments for higher powered humans and ab-humans. The cultures I can think of that might include multiple diverse races are Tau with Human Auxilliaries and Kroot, or Chaos with 1/2 Demons and Demon possessed ab-humans, or Guardsmen with Ogryn and Ratling allies, Or Orks with Grots and Squigs. Eldar guardsmen would be a good idea also. The hardest to design rules for would probably be Tyranids because they are just so foreign. Using a bastardized d20 modern system would be the way to go.

Duff
2007-08-22, 06:42 AM
An Orc campaign with the PCs as the escort/enterage/minder for an orc psycher (I've forgotten their propper name).

All they have to do is not loose him, not die and not have the psycher blow up anything important including himself!

its_all_ogre
2007-08-22, 11:03 AM
actually i have always wanted to run a game like necromunda.
as to only being suitable for hack n slash(or shoot and burn) thats like saying dnd is all about the killing, robbing and xp gaining.
the 40k universe is a full world or background of fluff, i have kept some of the older books for the background for when i am in need of inspiration in writing some new background. they are really good for pumping fluff into their worlds (GW that is).
i think a group of desperadoes trapped in a hive world that is being infested by tyranids would be harsh and deadly, like aliens but worse!

Wraith
2007-08-22, 05:08 PM
Between them, It's_all_ogre and Zorg seem to have read my mind - I personally believe that the best way to run a 40k-era roleplay game would be to set it on a Hive World such as Necromunda, least of all because it gives a definitive setting and background to the chronicle.

More importantly, however, Necromundian plots are comparatively 'likely', compared to the other possibilities of an otherwise Galaxy-wide chronicle. To me, there is no absolutely no reason as to why an Imperial Guardsman would join forces with an Eldar Scout, let alone doing it with an errant Space marine Scout AND a Tau fire-warrior in the same politically-correct manner as you'd find in D&D. More likely, they'd kill each other on sight in the name of the Emperor! :smalltongue:

Aspect Warriors, fully-fledged Space Marines and Tau Battle-Suit wearers would be even more so - their perspectives are simply too narrow to allow anything like party harmony. I also believe that, quite frankly, a Space Marine or an Aspect Warrior is too tough to be considered as a starting character class - they are both the elite troops of their people; born, bred and practised for decades in the heat of battle and the finest example that their forces have to offer of offensive combat.

BAB+1, they ain't. :smallwink:

On Necromunda, however, everyone is still human (or mostly human, at least). There's a REASON that Players start out weak and become tougher as the compaign goes on, or that they have all been thrown together as a group, and that can simply be "they're all Juves in the same Gang and they progress to Gangers".
For flavour, some can become Bounty Hunters, Hive Scum, Mutants, Pit Slaves, even Wyrds as well as the normal advances to Heavy Weapon Specialists and Gang Leaders - even before you consider the 'mundane' classes like Bar Tender, Slime Farmer and Watchman that could compare with the Warhammer fantasy Role Play equivalents.

Hell, I'd even go so far as to include rules for Outlander Characters - if the players are all outlawed desperado's searching the wastes for a safe place to sleep and a bite to eat, their common cause could bring together all sorts of different characters for legitimate reasons.

No matter what anyone says, I can't see an Imperial Commissar Character wanting anything to do with even a civilian character, let alone an Alien, and any Space Marine variant could - as far as I understand it from reading the last 10 years of fluff - grind the average Squad of Guardsmen into hamburger meat, solo.

Give me the filth, deprivation and sheer desperation of Hive Primus any day.:smallbiggrin:

Bassetking
2007-08-22, 05:17 PM
An Orc campaign with the PCs as the escort/enterage/minder for an orc psycher (I've forgotten their propper name).

All they have to do is not loose him, not die and not have the psycher blow up anything important including himself!

'Da Proppah term is "Weirdboy"; 'umie.

Kiero
2007-08-22, 06:40 PM
No matter what anyone says, I can't see an Imperial Commissar Character wanting anything to do with even a civilian character, let alone an Alien, and any Space Marine variant could - as far as I understand it from reading the last 10 years of fluff - grind the average Squad of Guardsmen into hamburger meat, solo.

Unless they have that Protagonist Glow (TM) - like Gaunt's Ghosts who can take down Chaos Marines without getting slaughtered. Hell later on the Gereon Gang manage a squad on their own, and they only outnumber the Traitor Marines two to one (though with lots of collateral damage and civilian casualties).

Although we weren't talking about Dark Heresy, the sample adventure (http://www.blackindustries.com/default.asp?template=40K&content=40K-sh-booklet) is out soon - maybe in the next few days.

Wraith
2007-08-22, 07:37 PM
Ah yes, the Protagonist Glow(tm). Still, let's be fair - not every Player in the Galaxy can be on par with someone like Kal Jericho or Brother Rafen, otherwise there'd be no such thing as Player Death or Insantiy Points!

Then again, I always preferred Ciaphus Cain as my archetype anti-hero. The only time he ever has anything to do with the Chaos Traitors is when he's running away from them very, very quickly.

...And then calls in an artillary strike on everything behind him. That is the sort of game I would like to see - one where the Players are genuinely scared of the things they might encounter... :smallbiggrin:

Neon Knight
2007-08-22, 10:12 PM
...And then calls in an artillary strike on everything behind him.

No, they nuke the site from orbit. Its the only way to be sure.

Bassetking
2007-08-22, 10:30 PM
Ah yes, the Protagonist Glow(tm). Still, let's be fair - not every Player in the Galaxy can be on par with someone like Kal Jericho or Brother Rafen, otherwise there'd be no such thing as Player Death or Insantiy Points!

Then again, I always preferred Ciaphus Cain as my archetype anti-hero. The only time he ever has anything to do with the Chaos Traitors is when he's running away from them very, very quickly.

...And then calls in an artillary strike on everything behind him. That is the sort of game I would like to see - one where the Players are genuinely scared of the things they might encounter... :smallbiggrin:

Sadly, this type of game lacks both player investment, and staying power. In the parlance of "Fear The Boot", this is a Richard Pryor game. A game in which the players spend the entire campaign running, screaming, in terror, from everything they encounter.

Genuine "Horror" is one of the single most difficult things to cultivate in a game, and an overbearing, all-pervasive version of it changes from fear to apathy QUICKLY.

Kiero
2007-08-23, 05:29 AM
Ah yes, the Protagonist Glow(tm). Still, let's be fair - not every Player in the Galaxy can be on par with someone like Kal Jericho or Brother Rafen, otherwise there'd be no such thing as Player Death or Insantiy Points!

Why not? This is like the argument that in licensed games (like Star Wars) because you're not Luke, Han and Leia, you should be some disposable chump who can't really influence events.

Making PCs distinct from NPCs is not incompatible with any of those things like insanity or death. Look at games with metamechanics around plot immunity, like Adventure! or Buffy/Angel or Spirit of the Century.

On another little tangent, there's some useful stuff about the Inquisition in the Thorian Sourcebook (http://www.specialist-games.com/assets/ThorianSource.pdf) (see pages 23-8 for stuff on how the Inqusition works) that's relevant to Dark Heresy.

Zorg
2007-08-23, 07:16 AM
Why not? This is like the argument that in licensed games (like Star Wars) because you're not Luke, Han and Leia, you should be some disposable chump who can't really influence events.

Because it's 40k - one of the key tennants is that everybody's disposable.

onasuma
2007-08-23, 07:19 AM
All be joining please.
http://z13.invisionfree.com/40K_Online/index.php?act=idx
Thats the 40k roleplaying forum i use. We have alot going on sometimes but at the moment its quite quiet. I have a game running in the tallern system, in one on the last prisons in the imperium. We also have another one starting soon, involving the infiltration of a chaos cult.
There are so many ones you could do easily, there is really no end. Kroot fighting for survival in a jungle, An ork fighting pit (Although that would be more combat orientated), A ship with a lictor on board. Any of these would work.

GeneralTacticus
2007-08-23, 08:25 AM
To GM: Inquisitorial campaign.

To Play: Ditto.

Yes, I like Inquisitors. There's so much plot and RP potential there, and it's an excellent excuse to have a cast of diverse characters from all over the place acting as a single party - Inquisitors can collect very eccentric retinues over time, if they feel inclined.

And personally, I think the vast scale and often-sketchy nature of the 40k setting is one of the best things about it for RPing. The latter, because it means the Imperium can include more or less anything you want; planet-spanning technocracy? Mechanicus Forge World. Sci-fi urban dyspotia? Hive world. Comparatively mundane suburbia? "Civilised" world. Medieval tech (possibly with the odd anachronism thrown in)? Feudal world. And so it goes. The Imperium contains every tech level from stone age on up, and it gets even more diverse outside its borders.

Meanwhile, the scale is great because, paradoxically, it allows you to do all sorts of epic things without needing to alter the overall storyline of the setting. In contrast to, say, Star Wars, in which seemingly every major crisis is handled by the same seven people, and a major event anywhere can have galactic repercussions, it's quite possible for the intrepid Inquisitor and retinue to banish the mighty Demon Prince Ev'ilguy al-Unprounc'eable, destroy his centuries-old cult, and save an entire sector from being overrun by tentacled horrors from the warp, all without the GM needing to consider any setting-wide ramifications. Admittedly, you might find it depressing that your actions didn't seem to change much in the long run... but I'm sure the umpteen billion people that you saved from horrible and eternal torment are definitely noticing a difference.

Oh, and there's no way in hell I'd use 1st level D20 characters for an Inquisitorial campaign. If I did decide to use D20 over some other system, I'd start the PCs off at level 5 as a minimum. You just don't work for the Inquisition unless you're already pretty special somehow.

Kiero
2007-08-23, 08:34 AM
Because it's 40k - one of the key tennants is that everybody's disposable.

Says who and based on what? Depends entirely on what you're taking as your source material. It's nothing like universal.

Renx
2007-08-23, 08:40 AM
Inquisitors or chaos. Sadly, most of my playing friends are mech freaks so I'm guessing we'd go marines.

Were-Sandwich
2007-08-23, 09:12 AM
If I was gonna use d20 (which I wouldn't) I'd have each race have a class of its own, where you have very broad talent trees, which accentuate the racial stuff. Like marines would get insane stat bonuses and tankability, Eldar speed and psychic powers, or Mad Ninja Skillz(tm), depending which tree they went down (farseer vs Aspect warrior vs guardian etc), Tau get mad shooting skill etc.

Wraith
2007-08-23, 09:26 AM
Why not? This is like the argument that in licensed games (like Star Wars) because you're not Luke, Han and Leia, you should be some disposable chump who can't really influence events.

Perhaps I should rephrase a little bit? :smallsmile:

Yes, any player should - theoretically - be able to become Heroes of the Imperium or whatever racial equivalent that you wish to practice. D&D has Archmages and all the rest, so it's really no different to any social-based goal you can think of I suppose.

What I attempted to argue, however, is that Protagonist Glow(tm) is a literary device similar to Deus Ex Machina - the character survives and does great things because that's how the plot gets fulfilled and the novel come to a conclusion.
I do not believe that this should be the case for Player Characters - they should always be at risk, and have to resort to genuine ingenuity to get them through the game, otherwise where is the challenge? Playing an elite Space Marine Captain in Terminator armour carries very little risk, so why bother taking part if you KNOW that you're going to win? The DM might as well just hand out free XP for inconsequentially rolling dice.

I'm all for epic tales of heroism and bravery performed in dire circumstances by those poor few who just happen to be in the wrong place at the right time, of course I am.
I simply do not believe that a super-human starting character who wears the best suit of armour that mankind can possibly devise and who wields a weapon that is part-death incarnate, part-religious icon should be the norm, and that no one should *always* expect to survive unto the very end.

Just like D&D, I suppose :smallsmile: I prefer not to start out as Epic-Level Sorcerer and just annihilate everything in my path until I come up against some unimaginably powerful BBEG and his Uber-Demon cohort as the only possible threat to me, when there is a lot more intrigue and nerve-jangling desperation available at starting at Level 1 and working my way up.

Nothing should be indestructable, or so close as to make no difference, for that removes the risk and therefore the excitement.
This goes doubly so to Player Characters, as even Bassetking's admirable and very accurate view of True Horror becomes completely redundant if someone even thinks (correctly or otherwise) that they can handle everything that is thrown at them :smallbiggrin:

Zorg
2007-08-23, 10:07 AM
Says who and based on what? Depends entirely on what you're taking as your source material. It's nothing like universal.

"Human blood and human flesh - the stuff of which the Imperium is made"

"Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for there is no peace among the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter..."
Rouge Trader pg 2

"For every battle honour, a thousand heroes die alone, unsung, and unremembered"
Rogue Trader pg 72

"There are no answers, only death"
Rogue Trader pg 76

"Every man is a spark in the darkness. By the time he is noticed he is gone forever. A retinal after-image that fades and is obscured by newer, brighter lights"
Rogue Trader pg 93

and so on :smallwink:

Kiero
2007-08-23, 11:46 AM
Yes, any player should - theoretically - be able to become Heroes of the Imperium or whatever racial equivalent that you wish to practice. D&D has Archmages and all the rest, so it's really no different to any social-based goal you can think of I suppose.

What I attempted to argue, however, is that Protagonist Glow(tm) is a literary device similar to Deus Ex Machina - the character survives and does great things because that's how the plot gets fulfilled and the novel come to a conclusion.
I do not believe that this should be the case for Player Characters - they should always be at risk, and have to resort to genuine ingenuity to get them through the game, otherwise where is the challenge? Playing an elite Space Marine Captain in Terminator armour carries very little risk, so why bother taking part if you KNOW that you're going to win? The DM might as well just hand out free XP for inconsequentially rolling dice.


Speaks more to your preferences than what is possible. I've got no problem whatsoever with running a game that starts out assuming you're a fully-fledged Inquisitorial cell, stocked with experienced badasses, and pitching challenges appropriate to that level.

More to the point, this isn't a binary choice of "either schlub or god", there's a vast spectrum in between of "not godlike" if you don't want to start out a novice. Any GM worth their salt is able to set up appropriate challenges to deal with whatever level of competence they have in front of them, subject to their preferences.

Needless to say, to bring it back to the D&D analogy, I don't believe in starting at 1st level ever. Been there, done that. Not interesting for me to run or play.

Furthermore, horror is just one possible slant on 40k. That whole "helpless people swept up by events beyond their control" is similarly only one subset of horror.


"Human blood and human flesh - the stuff of which the Imperium is made"

"Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for there is no peace among the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter..."
Rouge Trader pg 2

"For every battle honour, a thousand heroes die alone, unsung, and unremembered"
Rogue Trader pg 72

"There are no answers, only death"
Rogue Trader pg 76

"Every man is a spark in the darkness. By the time he is noticed he is gone forever. A retinal after-image that fades and is obscured by newer, brighter lights"
Rogue Trader pg 93

and so on :smallwink:

Throwaway quotes.

You know Rogue Trader has been all but disavowed in the current fluff (which includes the Black Library's submission criteria for stories)? Squats are gone, all that stuff about Sensei and Starchild, Ratlings and so on. It's hardly the sole authoritative source on what 40k is, and is rather dated.

But hey, that's your 40k. Just isn't mine, and you might have some convincing to do if anyone at your table has a differing vision.

Matthew
2007-08-24, 03:55 PM
Man, I am not familiar with the backstory to 4e Warhammer 40,000, but the more I hear about it the lamer it seems. Give me good old Rogue Trader any day of the week.

Kiero
2007-08-24, 04:56 PM
Man, I am not familiar with the backstory to 4e Warhammer 40,000, but the more I hear about it the lamer it seems. Give me good old Rogue Trader any day of the week.

Whereas I found a lot of stuff in Rogue Trader pretty lame and bizzarro. Imperial Guard recruits being eaten by their squadmates?

Matthew
2007-08-24, 05:06 PM
No idea. There was no Imperial Guard in Rogue Trader, just Imperial Army. There was some rubbish in Rogue Trader (mainly fantasy ports), but there's some rubbish in 4e (Orks, especially).

Sulecrist
2007-08-24, 05:10 PM
Throwaway quotes.

You know Rogue Trader has been all but disavowed in the current fluff (which includes the Black Library's submission criteria for stories)? Squats are gone, all that stuff about Sensei and Starchild, Ratlings and so on. It's hardly the sole authoritative source on what 40k is, and is rather dated.

But hey, that's your 40k. Just isn't mine, and you might have some convincing to do if anyone at your table has a differing vision.

Most of those quotes are still present, and new have been added as well.

"Mankind stands on the shoulders of the martyred." WH40K 4.0, page 171.

Kiero
2007-08-25, 05:24 AM
No idea. There was no Imperial Guard in Rogue Trader, just Imperial Army. There was some rubbish in Rogue Trader (mainly fantasy ports), but there's some rubbish in 4e (Orks, especially).


Most of those quotes are still present, and new have been added as well.

"Mankind stands on the shoulders of the martyred." WH40K 4.0, page 171.

I don't consider the wargame to be relevant as far as my vision of 40k goes; I haven't played it in well over a decade. None of what I'd use for an RPG concerns what goes on at the fighting fronts.

Zorg
2007-08-25, 05:49 AM
Well Squats, the Sensei, Starchild, Ratlings, Zoats, beastmen, Jokero, Thudd Guns, IG dreadnoughts, Spirit Walkers, Dark Angels wearing black, penal legions, chaos Genestealers, tinboyz, juggernaughts (the vehicle) and all the other things they've removed or changed have little to do with being bleak or not (and given alot of those went more because GW decided to not have a sense of humour anymore than anything).

To use some modern examples:

Eldar -
"We've figured out a way to defeat Slaanesh."
"Oh really? What is it?"
"Well first we all have to die..."

Tau -
Possiably just created by the Eldar to be tools in their own quest for survival - that is unless they irritate the Imperium too much and they crush them properly.

Necrons -
Soulless legions with no free will on a quest to eradicate all life from the galaxy.

Tyradids -
Pretty much the above but replace soulless with ravening and eradicate with absorb.

Dark Eldar -
We must consume the lifeforces of anyone weaker than ourselves or have our souls condemmed to eternal nothingness.

Imperial Guard / Humanity -
Recruited by the millions to be sent into any corner of the Imperium and used as cannon fodder - victory is often through sheer weight of numbers. And even if you win you might still get exterminatused if the enemy were tainted by chaos.

Also you may get caught up in some sort of catacylsmic event without any intervening factors, your neighbour may develop psychic powers and his head might burst open and let a flood of demons into your back yard. Then the Grey Knights show up, kill the demons and ride off victorious. Then they exterminatus you.

Or the Eldar might direct an Ork invasion your way to cover themselves.

Or some local preacher might come through and stir up some fanatics and they decide your not pious enough and burn you at the stake.

Or you might get your face washer mixed up with a Catachan Face Eater.

Inquisition -
Suspect everyone, even yourself - no one is above judgement - innocence proves nothing.

Imperial Fists -
We like pain, lots of it... go one, shoot me again...

Blood Angels -
Vampires in spaaaace!!! Good soldiers unless they go totally crazy.

Space Wolves-
Vikings in spaaaaace!!! Admitedly one of the few purely heroic groups out there - a rare exception.

Dark Angels -
We are eternally struggling against our forbidden inner desires and filled with self loathing (one of the last vestiges of GW's humourous subtext).

Orks -
They've rubbished up Ork's so much lately I'm not even sure where they're at anymore (do they still grow from mushrooms?), but basically they live to fight, and have no sense of self preservation or fear of dying, so long as they die busting heads.

Chaos -
It's Chaos :smalltongue:

Kiero
2007-08-25, 06:25 AM
Well Squats, the Sensei, Starchild, Ratlings, Zoats, beastmen, Jokero, Thudd Guns, IG dreadnoughts, Spirit Walkers, Dark Angels wearing black, penal legions, chaos Genestealers, tinboyz, juggernaughts (the vehicle) and all the other things they've removed or changed have little to do with being bleak or not (and given alot of those went more because GW decided to not have a sense of humour anymore than anything).

You mean making the setting less goofy? One of the best innovations, IMO, was the creation of Chaos Undivided, to take the attention off the four Parodical Powers.

Matthew
2007-08-25, 07:24 AM
There's not really much you can do when the Emperor of Man is basically devours the souls of Psychic Humans by the boatload to keep the empire running. A bleak future, I think, is quite the understatement.

That said, if you just choose to ignore any apsect of 40k that doesn't accord with your view of what the setting should be, then you could potentially create a less bleak alternative (and Rogue Trader has some interesting things to say about what the original intent was with regard to the shared universe).

Kiero
2007-08-25, 08:18 AM
There's not really much you can do when the Emperor of Man is basically devours the souls of Psychic Humans by the boatload to keep the empire running. A bleak future, I think, is quite the understatement.

That said, if you just choose to ignore any apsect of 40k that doesn't accord with your view of what the setting should be, then you could potentially create a less bleak alternative (and Rogue Trader has some interesting things to say about what the original intent was with regard to the shared universe).

The elements that are focused on in Abnett's works (Eisenhorn and Ravenor) suggest something more like pulp sci-fi than anything horrific. Sure there's bad stuff happening, but there are clearly people working for the betterment of mankind, and not necessarily in the tired old "kill them all, everyone dies anyway" rhetoric of Rogue Trader.

Matthew
2007-08-25, 08:37 AM
Yes, that's because Rogue Trader was supposed to support a broad type of play. However, the darker elements of the universe are what are typically focused on both by fans and designers. That's pretty much why the goofier elements have disappeared (though, sadly, Orks have not yet met such a fate).

As for 'pulp', well I guess that depends on your definition. The Cthulu mythos and Conan are often considered pulp fiction and I would hazard to say they were fairly bleak. I'm none too sure what element of 40k is not bleak, aside from the goofier aspects.

Kiero
2007-08-25, 08:54 AM
Yes, that's because Rogue Trader was supposed to support a broad type of play. However, the darker elements of the universe are what are typically focused on both by fans and designers. That's pretty much why the goofier elements have disappeared (though, sadly, Orks have not yet met such a fate).

As for 'pulp', well I guess that depends on your definition. The Cthulu mythos and Conan are often considered pulp fiction and I would hazard to say they were fairly bleak. I'm none too sure what element of 40k is not bleak, aside from the goofier aspects.

For me the key difference is Rogue Trader's "all-bleak, all-the-time", and Abnett's "bleakness with points of hope". The key theme isn't futility, but at what cost you're willing to suffer for victory.

Matthew
2007-08-25, 09:02 AM
Hmmn. I would say Rogue Trader definitely qualified as a 'at what price' universe; that's pretty much the underlying theme with regards to the continual sacrifice of the few to safeguard the many. It's a bleak universe within which people strive for a hopeful future.

Sulecrist
2007-08-25, 12:18 PM
I don't consider the wargame to be relevant as far as my vision of 40k goes; I haven't played it in well over a decade. None of what I'd use for an RPG concerns what goes on at the fighting fronts.

What do you consider relevent to your vision of 40k? If you're disavowing all of the Rogue Trader stuff and the last ten years of the wargame backstory? The peripheral games are far more dark and bleak than basic 40k (Inquisitor, Necromunda, and especially Battlefleet Gothic and Epic are all quite dread-filled and vicious). Are you just going by the BL novels? And if so, which of them support your vision?

Regarding Abnett: It has been established in current fluff that not everyone in the universe is a total psychopath. This is an improvement, IMHO. However, those non-psychopaths, even working at full tilt, still have massive trains of carnage and casualties, and it's all still pretty pointless. Look at Gereon and Eustis Majoris.

(I agree with the swathes of bleakness with points of hope analysis; I'd just add 'more or less futile' in there.)

Kiero
2007-08-25, 05:24 PM
What do you consider relevent to your vision of 40k? If you're disavowing all of the Rogue Trader stuff and the last ten years of the wargame backstory? The peripheral games are far more dark and bleak than basic 40k (Inquisitor, Necromunda, and especially Battlefleet Gothic and Epic are all quite dread-filled and vicious). Are you just going by the BL novels? And if so, which of them support your vision?

Regarding Abnett: It has been established in current fluff that not everyone in the universe is a total psychopath. This is an improvement, IMHO. However, those non-psychopaths, even working at full tilt, still have massive trains of carnage and casualties, and it's all still pretty pointless. Look at Gereon and Eustis Majoris.

(I agree with the swathes of bleakness with points of hope analysis; I'd just add 'more or less futile' in there.)

I could easily run a game from Abnett alone, just Eisenhorn and Ravenor. That's everything I need from the setting, without all the annoying stuff.

My only contact with 40k nowadays is in the novels, I don't play wargames and don't have much interest in them. I might pick up Dark Heresy, depending on what it looks like on a browse through, but by all accounts it draws heavily on Eisenhorn anyway.

Ralfarius
2007-08-25, 10:36 PM
Make the PC's tyranids. Like, a group of genestealers cut off from the hive, or something.. It would like playing the xenomorph in AvP. Hunt, kill, consume biomass. Repeat. Hells yes.

Sulecrist
2007-08-25, 11:19 PM
@Kiero: DH certainly draws a lot from Dan Abnett's vision of the world. Incidentally, I can say with about 95% certainty that he was a playtester.

Regarding DH and 40KRP in general: There're some character portraits for the upcoming game at http://www.blackindustries.com/?template=40k&content=art-dh. Personally, I like them, especially the noble and the rogue trader. I think that's the sort of feel I'd try to cultivate.

On the topic at hand: Someone (Erik Boille, IIRC) suggested using the D20 Modern system to play Ork characters. They get bigger as they fight, so it all works. I think that'd be hysterical, personally. I'd be a Weirdboy.

Kiero
2007-08-26, 04:49 AM
Make the PC's tyranids. Like, a group of genestealers cut off from the hive, or something.. It would like playing the xenomorph in AvP. Hunt, kill, consume biomass. Repeat. Hells yes.

Given genestealers are a scout/precursor form designed to bring the hive fleet to a work rich in biomass, there's nothing unusual about them being cut off from the hive.

Matthew
2007-08-26, 04:34 PM
On the topic at hand: Someone (Erik Boille, IIRC) suggested using the D20 Modern system to play Ork characters. They get bigger as they fight, so it all works. I think that'd be hysterical, personally. I'd be a Weirdboy.

Gah! I'm gonna stick with my suggestion of using the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay Rules.

Sulecrist
2007-08-26, 08:50 PM
Gah! I'm gonna stick with my suggestion of using the Warhammer Fantasy Roelplay Rules.

For Ork Boyz? Or in general?

(This was on the Black Industry Dark Heresy board in early summer, by the by. He phrased it much more eloquently and at much greater length than I.) :smallwink:

Matthew
2007-08-26, 09:13 PM
In general (i.e. if I were going to run a 40K Campaign). I might be tempted to use some stuff from Necromunda: Confrontation (the short series of articles publsihed in White Dwarf many moons ago, not the fully fledged Skirmish Game)

Sulecrist
2007-08-26, 09:22 PM
In general (i.e. if I were going to run a 40K Campaign). I might be tempted to use some stuff from Necromunda: Confrontation (the short series of articles publsihed in White Dwarf many moons ago, not the fully fledged Skirmish Game)

Man, I'd forgotten about those. Takes me back. Now that I think about it, though, that's not a terrible idea.

The Cthulu rules might not be awful either. I could even see the Project Chupa (or whatever they're calling it now) rules working. Still can't wait for the real release of DH, though. (Not to derail, but did anyone see a demonstration at GenCon?)

Tower
2007-08-27, 06:55 AM
If you were going to do Space Marines, I would start them off as Scouts/Initiates/Bloods Claws depending on chapters
The best chapter to do would be the Soul Drinkers since they are the remanents of a chapter that nearly got corrupted by chaos, managed to reverse it after a significant amount of mutations, stopped serving the Imperium but continue to serve the Emperor by fighting Chaos.

Little resources, Imperium think they are Chaos Marines / Fallen because the older marines are all mutants, Inquistion are hunting them and all their recruits are saved from being executed as rebels against the Imperium.

Kill Teams / Last Chancers / Inquistors would be other good ones, although Inquistors would probably be most compatible with the existing system of D&D.
Plus if you start Inquistors at a higher level, you could have seconded Imperial Guard, Space Marines, Assassins, Daemonhosts, Servitors etc.
Hell, several inquistors work with Eldar in the books and Tau probably wouldn't be too far out of the question. Inquistors recruit anyone they think would be useful.
Although Marines would probably squads, Death Watch squads have all different chapters of marines in them so you could probably have a Xenos Inquistor with several Marines in his band from different chapters

Inquistors would probably have the best hooks as well, since they have their hands/weapons/psyker abilities in everything, from trying to slow Waarrghs to stopping daemon summoning to cleansing tyranid infestations to finding out what the Eldar are screwing around with.

Ralfarius
2007-08-27, 05:22 PM
Given genestealers are a scout/precursor form designed to bring the hive fleet to a work rich in biomass, there's nothing unusual about them being cut off from the hive.
I seemed to remember that being the case, especially since they were able to operate out of range of any sort of hive node in the tabletop strategy game. They're the least dependent upon hive direction, and for that could be considered the most sentient and independent, and therefore the most feasible to have a group of players controlling.

goat
2007-08-27, 05:50 PM
I think I'd go for a hive gang fighting a Genestealer cult. Plenty of hybrids, pure genestealers and maybe even some unaffected cultists interfering with the upper levels of the hive. You could fight your way through everything from baseline humans up to tank-equipped hybrids with psyker support, and eventually try to fight your way through armies of Imperial and Tyranid forces as your group of battle hardened veterans tries to get onto one of the last ships evacuating the planet once the hive arrives.

Rules? No idea.

Kiero
2007-08-27, 06:37 PM
I seemed to remember that being the case, especially since they were able to operate out of range of any sort of hive node in the tabletop strategy game. They're the least dependent upon hive direction, and for that could be considered the most sentient and independent, and therefore the most feasible to have a group of players controlling.

They create a beacon to bring the hive there*, so actually operate independently of the hive. As a seed-race they don't need hive direction at all.



*The infamous Shadow on the Warp, that also makes worlds unable, when the infestation has grown large enough, to use astrotelepathy to call for help.

If I didn't use my default Wushu for a 40k game, I'd use Feng Shui Lite (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=317097).

Matthew
2007-08-29, 07:51 PM
Yeah, I think a Genestealer Cult would make for a classic Warhammer 40k RPG Adventure. Not sure how I would frame it, but I would almost certainly be using an adaption of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay to run it, helped along with some of the rules from Necromunda: Confrontation (http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Necromunda_Confrontation).