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de-trick
2007-08-20, 06:01 PM
Paladins and monk get some of the best things in 3.5 but the reason is that they are lawful the one drawback for the class

Proven_Paradox
2007-08-20, 06:03 PM
Paladins are just okay and monks are generally considered the weakest class in the game as written. I'm not sure what you're talking about here... And I don't see being forced to be lawful as a drawback, to answer your questions.

bluish_wolf
2007-08-20, 06:03 PM
You forget about bards and barbarians which can't be lawful.

MeklorIlavator
2007-08-20, 06:04 PM
Paladins and monk get some of the best things in 3.5 but the reason is that they are lawful the one drawback for the class

Wow. I never realized that the best classes in DnD should only be used as dips. I mean, I thought that classes that gave a reason to take to level 20 (Wizard, Cleric, Druid, ToB) were the best 3.5 had to offer, but your clever argument for the Paladin and monk has completely changed my viewpoint.

Neon Knight
2007-08-20, 06:05 PM
the reason is that they are lawful the one drawback for the class

Rebel scum.

TheLogman
2007-08-20, 06:06 PM
Plus, not only is being Lawful harder than being Chaotic, but the Barbarian is WAY higher than the Paladin and Monk on the useful scale, and although Bards are weak in Combat, I've seen builds that allow them to convince an entire army that is about to kill him to just go fetch him some magic items, and maybe some tea and scones.

Bauglir
2007-08-20, 06:08 PM
Plus, a properly cheesed out Bard is granting everyone who can hear him in battle a +10 or so bonus (depending on where your DM says Words of Creation do their doubling) to attacks and damage. And other rather nifty stuff, too.

Spiryt
2007-08-20, 06:08 PM
I don't understand your post well, but I can say that I never seen "must be lawful" as drawback.

It's about who the monk or Paladin is, whole concept of those guys - they're disciplined and strict. It's not about balancing them or something ( Monk need some Power for Gygax sake...) it's their fluff.

RandomNPC
2007-08-20, 06:09 PM
ok, i'll bite.

but put a pally up against anything non-evil.

smite and whatnot are pretty good, but they're pretty specific too.


monks, ok, speed, slowfall, lawful magical unarmed strikes. poison imunities, some kinda mental buff, flurry.

i think in three years my group has used poison twice, slowfall came in handy twice, and the speed just gets you further from the healer when you drop into the negatives. the only thing my group found usefull was the slowfall, and flurry.

i think the massive amount of abilities are what balances things out for the monk, some of them are more dangerous, like the speed.

anyway, the ability to heal yourself daily is nice.

Spiryt
2007-08-20, 06:11 PM
Rebel scum.

You punny 'ummie!

Hadrian_Emrys
2007-08-20, 06:12 PM
A paladin vs a barb ends with a holier than thou puddle with a stick jammed in it.

A monk vs a bard... is like the only instance where the monk might actually shine in fight. Pity the diplomancer managed to lure the martial artist into some friendly banter before a fight even took place. :smalltongue:

Dausuul
2007-08-20, 06:14 PM
i think the massive amount of abilities are what balances things out for try and fail utterly to render useful the monk, some of them are more dangerous, like the speed.

Fixed that for you.

Spiryt
2007-08-20, 06:15 PM
Plus, not only is being Lawful harder than being Chaotic

This is probably going to turn into some another alingment disscusion, and it will ne my fault, but check...

What do you mean?

MeklorIlavator
2007-08-20, 06:18 PM
A monk vs a bard... is like the only instance where the monk might actually shine in fight. Pity the diplomancer managed to lure the martial artist into some friendly banter before a fight even took place. :smalltongue:

Actually, in the core class battle, the monk lost to the bard.

Proven_Paradox
2007-08-20, 06:24 PM
Yeah, a bard with a good spell list would beat a monk.

Starbuck_II
2007-08-20, 06:27 PM
Actually, in the core class battle, the monk lost to the bard.

Was it a Strength based Monk or a Dex base Monk (weapon finesse dudes?)

Strength one should have had a chance.

puppyavenger
2007-08-20, 07:45 PM
Paladins and monk get some of the best things in 3.5 but the reason is that they are lawful the one drawback for the class

Is this a joke?

Machete
2007-08-20, 07:48 PM
Monk is a great dip for the AC bonus, so is Ninja.


Lawful is a drawback though, poor lawfuls know not what they miss.

psychoticbarber
2007-08-20, 07:51 PM
Actually, in the core class battle, the monk lost to the bard.

Didn't the Bard win by summoning a Celestial Bison or something like that? All I remember is somebody's reaction was


Wow. If that's not "humping the corpse", I don't know what is.

Hadrian_Emrys
2007-08-20, 07:53 PM
Note: I said "might actually shine". :smallamused: Even bypassing diplomancy, the bard put the gimp back in it's place. My point remains valid. :smallbiggrin:

psychoticbarber
2007-08-20, 07:58 PM
Note: I said "might actually shine". :smallamused: Even bypassing diplomancy, the bard put the gimp back in it's place. My point remains valid. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, I wasn't disputing your point. Just pointing out that not only did the monk lose, but if I recall correctly (that's right, I'm not too lazy to type out those words :smallwink:), the monk lost Hard. Core.

SurlySeraph
2007-08-20, 07:59 PM
A paladin vs a barb ends with a holier than thou puddle with a stick jammed in it.

A monk vs a bard... is like the only instance where the monk might actually shine in fight. Pity the diplomancer managed to lure the martial artist into some friendly banter before a fight even took place. :smalltongue:

Well, a reasonably optimized paladin can take out an evil barbarian. Against a neutral barbarian, yes, he's screwed.

With the monk... yeah.

Indon
2007-08-20, 08:02 PM
Didn't the Bard win by summoning a Celestial Bison or something like that? All I remember is somebody's reaction was

Couldn't the Monk have just, you know... left until the Bison went away?

*shrug*

JackMage666
2007-08-20, 08:04 PM
Also, Monks don't HAVE to be lawful - They only have to be lawful to continue taking levels. They don't lose any class features for being non-lawful, but they cannot take any other levels. Unlike the Paladin.

psychoticbarber
2007-08-20, 08:08 PM
Couldn't the Monk have just, you know... left until the Bison went away?

*shrug*

To be honest, I'm not even positive that that's what happened. Plus I wasn't there, or running the Monk.

Ramza00
2007-08-20, 08:19 PM
Plus, a properly cheesed out Bard is granting everyone who can hear him in battle a +10 or so bonus (depending on where your DM says Words of Creation do their doubling) to attacks and damage. And other rather nifty stuff, too.

And with dragon magic there is a feat that allows you to change your moral bonus to attack to an equal amount of energy damage of energy damage *d6. Thing is this an untyped energy bonus and no longer a moral bonus thus you can get a total of 6 bards doing all this adding 10ish attack and damage bonus, and 50ish*d6 energy damage to all people within 30 feet (sonic, acid, cold, lighting, and fire)

Weredwarf
2007-08-20, 08:32 PM
Paladins and monk get some of the best things in 3.5 but the reason is that they are lawful the one drawback for the class

By paladin and monk you mean wizard,druid and cleric. None of which need to be lawful.

F.H. Zebedee
2007-08-20, 09:35 PM
Two things to say:
Despite monks and paladins being among my most beloved classes, they're undeniably weak. I'd say that they both fall near the bottom, with only Bard in there with them when it comes to core. Fighter's right above them, I'd say.

And also, Leush is no ordinary player. He did some pretty nasty stuff in some matches, even though from what I understand, he had a rough start. And the Monk player has obscenely horrible dice. From what I hear, he got murdered on failed saves, repeatedly. (Who plays the fighter in there, anyways? IIRC, he was also pretty nasty for his character.)

Fawsto
2007-08-20, 09:59 PM
Dude, being a pally gets realy boring after lvl 6...

But optimized Pallys on Open Area Fights are terrible sights.
Just get a god damn Dire Lion as your mount, get him the best armor you can afford, keep as a Pally or Knight forever and you will get 2 characters for teh price of one. With that your Smiting Mounted Charges will surely overwhelm everything evil on sigh (anything you can hit). And you will be quite pesky when your smites are gone, while you and your mount keep striking full attacks at your opponents.

I guess they tryed to make the Paladin a defensive juggernaut... They tryed, they failed. Dude, Pally gets his Cha bonus on Saves, where is the Evasion, Improved Evasion and Mettle when we need them?!?!

Neva played a Monk, neva will play a Monk... I simply can't get the taste of teh concept...

de-trick
2007-08-20, 10:26 PM
Monks are pretty good too, never unarmed or unable to fight say you get your arms tied you can still kick and do alot of other stuff too, also higher levels you become a outsider get spell resistance all good saves, wisdom to ac, and alot more still

Djinn_in_Tonic
2007-08-20, 10:50 PM
All of which helps so much when I simply cast Forcecage around you and then use telekinesis to drop you, cage and all, into the nearest volcano.

Seffbasilisk
2007-08-20, 11:28 PM
Monks retain thier benifits, just can't gain more levels if they go non-lawful. A L-N Monk who when out seeing the world, decides it's more fun to just scream and shatter people with a chunk of wood and/or metal, can multiclass to barbarian and go N-N or C-N, keeping all monk +'s.

Monk +'s though, don't add up to a lot.

If you're obsessed with pally's too, there are chaotic varients available as well.

BardicDuelist
2007-08-21, 12:16 AM
Even a core bard kicks a core monk's ass.

Also, on the "powerful" (here quotation marks stand for sarcasm) classes that need lawful is the only class that makes the monk look good....the samurai.

Selv
2007-08-21, 03:01 AM
Monks are pretty good too...

Sigh. I love Monks, and I wish I had your experience with them.
For me it was always

"I'm a warrior!"
"But you're effectively two-weapon-fighting.... with unenhanceable d6 weapons? Plus, your BAB, HP and strength are all about the same as Mother Teresa over there."
"Well, I got some skills."
"Is there anything you can do that Bilbo Baggins over there can't?"
"Yeah I can... I can concentrate. I know more about church hierachy than he does. Plus I.... I have really good saves?"
"OK, cool. Your job in the party will be "looking through windows in creepy evil wizard's towers."

And that's how I ended up with a monk who was Shaken for two levels.

Kurald Galain
2007-08-21, 03:55 AM
Monks are pretty good too

Aaaannd.... Buddha kills another catfish.

lord_khaine
2007-08-21, 04:08 AM
though hotly desputet i will still claim monks are powerfull enough if you actualy take the efford to learn the class.
a str based monk is an effective combatant, and he Can get his weapons enchantet.

WitchSlayer
2007-08-21, 04:16 AM
I think monks should just stop being mentioned. Every time they are its "ARE MONKS GOOD?!". Seriously guys, just stop. At least wait for Bassets duel with That Monk Guy Whos Name Starts With G That I Can Not Remember. Then we can find out, okay? Okay.

Turcano
2007-08-21, 04:22 AM
though hotly desputet i will still claim monks are powerfull enough if you actualy take the efford to learn the class.

You're quite welcome to demonstrate this; most of us haven't seen such a monk build.


a str based monk is an effective combatant, and he Can get his weapons enchantet.

Yeah, his sucky weapons. (Is it just me, or are all monk weapons exactly the same?) That matches the monk's unarmed strike until third level. That's the problem with monks in general: they have schizo mechanics that don't work together.