Rogue class question

[Stormtrooper666]

Are there any rogue type classes that use a 1 handed axe as there main?

I'm used to seeing daggers and sword variants but no builds with a axe.

[Fizban]

Rogues are not proficient with any axes, so a "typical" rogue build won't use them. The handaxe and throwing axe are both light weapons, so any Weapon Finesse/TWF/whatever build can use them just fine, if they have proficiency- and a lot of dex builds dip Fighter or Ranger or Warblade or Swordsage or Swasbuckler or something that grants martial proficiency. So you write down handaxe instead of short sword and you're done.*


The only axe-focused PrC that I know of is Disciple of Thrym, which is about greataxes and spellcasting from a specific 1-5th level list. Most generic roguish PrCs don't care about what weapon you use. Of the two that really do, Invisible Blade is obviously out as it's daggers only.

Master Thrower could use throwing axes, but the thrown weapon tricks lean against it: doubletoss and two with one blow are better for high str+high damage weapons, while the palm throw that lets a low-str person boost their damage only works for shuriken, darts, and daggers, so you'll be getting less damage than daggers. Sneaky shot and weak spot are the real reasons people take Master Thrower, and those work just fine with a throwing axe. And there's also the fact that 10' range increment is *terrible*- an actual throwing specialist would be using darts, or javelins or Rock Throwing feat if they're str focused and thus not palm throwing, or even light hammers for a blunt weapon with 20' base range. Not daggers or shuriken or throwing axes.


*Funny thing is, wide crit range weapons are associated with dex-y characters and rogues, but don't actually benefit sneak attack in 3.5 since it doesn't multiply. Some people take that as a sign that it should multiply- but 3.5 already has a feat for combining sneak attack and wider crits. Telling Blow gives you sneak attack damage on every crit even when you aren't sneak attacking, which is great if you actually accept that not every attack is a sneak attack. Daggers only have the 19-20 of course and a Telling Blow user would obviously prefer a keen rapier or kukri, but the point remains that the axe's high crit multiplier is less useful in open combat for people that aren't rocking large multiply-able bonuses.

Some people like to make a point of carrying around a scythe or pick for a larger multiplier on coup de grace, but if you have a str bonus and a magic weapon this likely isn't getting you much of an increase in damage and isn't worth the weapon switching time, and is definitely inferior if you've actually got weapon spec. A no-str build on the other hand needs every bit they can get, so carrying a handaxe or pick might actually help a tiny bit before you've got a +2 main weapon.

Really, the most useful thing about a handaxe is that it's actually a useful tool. You can make a woodsy character with a hand or throwing axe as their sidearm, and then actually use it for handaxe-y things. If you're trying to look inconspicuous, a shortsword is clearly a weapon and carrying a pair of daggers makes you look like you're out for violence, but a woodsy guy with a knife and a hatchet looks normal while still carrying two weapons. Prop your bow in the corner and it looks like you're taking your ease, while still being ready to TWF.

Of course it's also worth remembering that nothing says a rogue has to be dex or light weapon focused at all: sneak attack works just as well with a greatsword and you only need enough dex to fill out your armor (assuming you even acknowledge AC as useful) and qualify for feats. If you don't care about ranged attacks or high end dex feats, be a str rogue with a fighter dip and use whatever you want. The only reason to go crazy over dex is because you want ranged attacks, initiative, and reflex saves, and are willing to pay out the nose switching all your combat to dex to get them.

[weckar]

I do enjoy that little thing you got going there Fizban, especially the last bit.

Reminds me of something I can tie to this thread: Half-Orc rogues using greataxes. Because nothing says "Didn't see that coming!" [Sneak Attack] like having your skull cleaved from behind.

[Arkhios]

I'm not so sure you really need higher than mediocre dexterity (13-14) as a rogue if you want to focus on strength, because you already have high reflex save progression. I know for a fact that you don't really need to pump up your best saves through the roof, just because your class is good at it. I'd use that as advantage to focus more on the other aspects of your character instead of solely on your class (as those are two different things, mind you). With a small dip into a fighter, for example, you can pick up a medium armor instead; most of which only allow up to +3 from Dex to AC anyway. Plus if you are focusing on being strong and not agile, it goes without saying that hiding and moving silently probably isn't your thing anyway, and Open Locks doesn't even care about armor check penalty.

Initiative is also rather swingy thing to focus on that much. If you want high initiative, grab Improved Initiative.

[Dante Daylight]

I once thought of a build about a daring outlaw using a short sword and a handaxe who aims for the "High Sword low Axe" combat feat.

The main concept of this character was to trip enemies (who are preferebly be flanked by an ally, so both of you get extra AOO's and SA d6 :smallbiggrin:)

As human you develop like this:

at level 6 you are Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2 and can take High sword low Axe. Most of the prerestique feats are very good for themselves (unlike weapon focus who are the only reason for the Fighter levels :smallfrown: )

at level 9 you are Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 4/Fighter 2 and can Take Daring Outlaw. From this point you just continue in Swashbuckler

[The Viscount]

The answer depends on what you consider a rogue type class.

Scouts are rather rogue like with some ranger aspects, and they gain proficiency with hand axe and throwing axe.

If you're talking about battleaxes, factotum and its crude cousin savant both have proficiency with all martial weapons and can do roguish things, in addition to their other features.

[Malimar]

In addition to the good points made above, I'll just point out that Sneak Attack Fighter is a thing. Not an amazing thing, but a thing.

[Psyren]

When you say "rogue-type classes," is Ranger on the table? A handaxe is a more woodsy-feeling weapon, and they make decent skillmonkeys/sneaks too. Like Rogues, they also have a bonus damage mechanic, so TWF gives more value.

[Inevitability]

Note: the following trick requires the extremely borked custom magic item rules. These are guidelines and may not apply in your game. Be careful.

An item of continuous CL 5 Ice Axe would cost 30000 GP (available by level 9). The resulting weapon would deal 2d12+2 points of cold damage per hit, not including sneak attack, and attacks made with it would be touch attacks. You don't have to pump strength, because touch attacks almost always hit anyway, and your strength modifier doesn't apply to the damage you deal, meaning you can focus on dexterity like a normal rogue would. At the same time, having a weapon with very high base damage that doesn't care about most forms of AC is highly advantageous.

In addition, the axe has a number of other advantages. It can't be sundered, and foes can't disarm you of it. Furthermore, you can make it completely undetectable by placing any other object in your hand, then immediately summon the axe as a free action by dropping said object.

It's pricy, but in a higher-level game it may just be worth it.

If your DM is completely insane and allows you to state the item was somehow created by someone with a CL of 1, the price drops to 6000 GP, making it available as early as level 5.