Super Defense Squad!

[EdenIndustries]

Hey everyone, I'm back again with an idea I wanted to run by you all based on the best possible defensive 4-character team. If you've seen my previous threads (here's the most recent one on optimizing a short rest team: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?537188-Short-Rest-Squad), you know I really like optimizing characters/teams around a specific theme. And so today's idea is a team that's all about defense and damage mitigation. So without further ado, here we go!

Character 1: Ancestral Guardians Barbarian 18 / Moon Druid 2

The Ancestral Guardians Barbrian from Xanathar's is an awesome damage-mitigation character, handing out disadvantage and resistance to enemies that attack your allies while also using a reaction to cancel damage. Why the Moon Druid bit? Well, he's going to be the mount for the next character...

Character 2: Ancients Paladin 20

With the Mounted Combatant feat, this guy will hop on top of his Barbarian/Druid ally. That way, any attack which targets the Barbarian (who doesn't benefit from his own ability to mark an enemy) can be redirected to the Paladin instead. Effectivelly, this means that the Barbarian's Ancestral Protectors feature benefits the whole party. And being an Ancients Paladin, our aura will provide a boost to saving throws and resistance to all spells. Great defensive features!

Character 3: Cavalier Fighter 3 / Arcane Trickster Rogue 17

The idea with this character is he'll use his Cavalier mark to allow an additional enemy (or enemies) to have disadvantage, which synergizes with the Ancestral Guardian Barbarian when there are more than 1 enemy. Further, he'll take the Sentinel feat and the Tunnel Fighter fighting style. This will allow us to maximize our sneak attacks by:


If we have the bonus action attack provided by the Cavalier mark, attack with a bonus action and get sneak attack damage. Then, ready our action to attack off-turn so we can get it again.
If we don't have the bonus action attack from Cavalier mark, attack normally and use the bonus action from Tunnel Fighter to allow us to get multiple OA's this round
If our ally is attacked, we get an OA from Sentinel to do an attack. The trick is, we really want enemies to attack either the Barbarian or the Paladin so we get this attack. Therefore, utilize the Rogue's Uncanny Dodge and our ability to cast Mirror Image since we're an AT to make enemy attacks against us sufficiently ineffective that they'll attack the others instead.


With spells like Shield and Mirror Image, and class features like Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, and Slippery Mind, and heck maybe grabbing Resilient Con and Defensive Duelist too, this character will be really hard to damage. Hopefully, as mentioned above, sufficiently hard to damage that enemies will attack the Barbarian or Paladin instead.

It's a bit odd that he's not the one that's riding the Barbarian mount, but the reason is that I don't want to redirect attacks to him since I want to maximize the reaction attacks from Sentinel.

Also, one could point out that going further in Cavalier instead of Rogue would get a few more defensive-esque abilities. My problem with that is basically all of the abilities are limited to long rest, and require high attribute modifiers to provide enough uses. Personally I'd rather a minor ability I can use every turn to a more powerful ability that I can use only a couple times a day because it's fun to use abilities! If they were short-rest abilities, or really anything other than modifier/long rest, I'd probably be more inclined to go further in Cavalier.

Character 4: Abjuration Wizard 20
I love wizards, but don't really like the Abjuration tradition. So this'll give me a fun reason to play it, and it's great of course at warding himself and others, and counterspelling. So great defensive stuff!


So that's the basic idea! Feel free of course to comment on any of it, but here are a few questions of my own that I'm mulling over:

Does the Cavalier's mark add enough on top of the Barbarian ability to make it worth it? Against one enemy, definitely not. Against multiple enemies, it adds a bit. So two options here would either be to conclude it doesn't add enough and scrap Cavalier altogther, or conclude that it's sufficiently worth it against multiple enemies so as to take Cavalier much higher, perhaps even to 20, and forget about Rogue.
Is a dip into Cleric for the Wizard worth it? I'm not a huge fan of the Wizard's capstone, and having armour and shield proficiency would be nice to make him a defensive character too, like the rest of the team. Plus, Cleric does have some fun spells (Shield of Faith, Sanctuary, etc.) that fit the defensive theme.
The Ancients Paladin's spell resistance aura is possibly redundant if the Barbarian can mark the caster, though given that it may be hard to get to the backline where a caster is (not to mention if there are more than one of them), it's probably going to come in handy.
Is there any point going higher than 14 in Barbarian? Given that the idea is he hangs out in his Wildshape form anyway, the other Barbarian features probably don't add a ton. Is there something else that could be added in to the mix to boost defensive potential? Moon Druid 6 gets us better Wildshape forms. Cavalier Fighter 4 lets us mark folks, which is again mostly redundant except in the case of multiple enemies.


Thanks in advance for your thoughts, ideas, and feedback!

[PeteNutButter]

Love it. Feel like you need a wisdom character in there to round out the party, maybe tanky forge cleric?

My DM instincts quickly see a flaw in the party that would get exploited ASAP: I'm going to disintegrate your bear.

He only has 34 HP, mounted combatant doesn't redirect save spells, and with a 10 dex he is in trouble. As a barbarian he'll have advantage on the save, but if he fails he is likely a pile of ash. Odds are not good, even with advantage with +0 to make something like DC 18. :smalltongue:

[jojo]

My DM instincts quickly see a flaw in the party that would get exploited ASAP: I'm going to disintegrate your bear.

He only has 34 HP, mounted combatant doesn't redirect save spells, and with a 10 dex he is in trouble. As a barbarian he'll have advantage on the save, but if he fails he is likely a pile of ash. Odds are not good, even with advantage with +0 to make something like DC 18. :smalltongue:

I've actually been playing with a build that would mitigate this. Using the UA Ranger: Revised (most recent one) with at least 7 levels in Ranger Conclave of Beasts you could have a bear that's basically immune to such shenanigans. With a Druid in the mix you could even theoretically cast awakening on the bear for a back-door PC... at which point I don't see why the ASIs that the bear would get every time the PC got them shouldn't be able to be used to take feats... So the Ranger could pop over and finish off as a Battlemaster Crossbow/Sharpshooter fighter while the bear got even tankier.

Granted this option will likely go away when WotC releases the final revision of the Ranger because the current Beast Conclave is OPaF.

[MaxWilson]

Love it. Feel like you need a wisdom character in there to round out the party, maybe tanky forge cleric?

My DM instincts quickly see a flaw in the party that would get exploited ASAP: I'm going to disintegrate your bear.

Abjuration wizard: "I counterspell."

[EdenIndustries]

Love it. Feel like you need a wisdom character in there to round out the party, maybe tanky forge cleric?
Yeah I was wondering that myself. I considered removing the Cavalier/Rogue and replacing him with a Forge Cleric or something. Not sure yet...



My DM instincts quickly see a flaw in the party that would get exploited ASAP: I'm going to disintegrate your bear.

He only has 34 HP, mounted combatant doesn't redirect save spells, and with a 10 dex he is in trouble. As a barbarian he'll have advantage on the save, but if he fails he is likely a pile of ash. Odds are not good, even with advantage with +0 to make something like DC 18. :smalltongue:

First of all, this is exactly the situation that my Abjuration Wizard's Counterspell is for! :smallsmile:

But even if I don't Counterspell it, the Paladin's aura will at least be providing a +Cha to saving throws, which is something at least. He'll also have resistance to the damage from the Paladin's aura too. Though granted, that still probably won't be enough.

But even beyond that, are you sure that's how Disintegrate works? I found this post: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/73088/what-happens-when-a-polymorphed-creature-is-reduced-to-0-hp-by-disintegrate

And in it, someone posts a tweet (seemingly now deleted?) by JC saying, "The intent is that a druid using Wild Shape is disintegrated if the druid, not the beast form, drops to 0 hp. #DnD" In which case, I think the Barbarian would just revert and take any additional damage? Which if true, would definitely make it not quite as powerful of a counter.

Edit: Ninja'd by MaxWilson with the same idea of counterspelling :smallsmile:

[nickl_2000]

Love it. Feel like you need a wisdom character in there to round out the party, maybe tanky forge cleric?

My DM instincts quickly see a flaw in the party that would get exploited ASAP: I'm going to disintegrate your bear.

He only has 34 HP, mounted combatant doesn't redirect save spells, and with a 10 dex he is in trouble. As a barbarian he'll have advantage on the save, but if he fails he is likely a pile of ash. Odds are not good, even with advantage with +0 to make something like DC 18. :smalltongue:

So, whether your table plays this or not. Disintegrate doesn't actually cause instadeath to the bear, it just knocks them out of the form (this was on a Sage Advice section of Dragon talk about polymorphing).

[PeteNutButter]

Abjuration wizard: "I counterspell."

Caster of disintegrate: "I counterspell."

As for whether it works... well it's DM dependent. Personally, I think it's a fair weakness for someone who is using a level 2 ability in end game. The only official thing, actual sage advice specifically says it does kill the druid.

EDIT: Maybe just have a full moon druid fill that role? It seems like a waste for the barbarian (AKA a very tanky class) to be the one that can't get hit. A polymorhped or later true polymorphed ally could be huge sized, which would give the rider advantage to attack large foes.

[EdenIndustries]

Maybe just have a full moon druid fill that role? It seems like a waste for the barbarian (AKA a very tanky class) to be the one that can't get hit. A polymorhped or later true polymorphed ally could be huge sized, which would give the rider advantage to attack large foes.

So I guess you're basically thinking Moon Druid instead of Cavalier/Rogue? I suppose that could work. In which case the Barbarian could maybe grab Polearm Master and keep back, making the Paladin and Druid the more common targets. And if the Moon Druid takes Sentinel like the Cavalier/Rogue used to, not only would it get an attack whenever the Paladin is hit (including redirected attacks thanks to Mounted Combatant) but if an enemy tries to get around them and head over to the Barbarian (who wouldn't benefit from the Ancestral Protectors) the Moon Druid can take an opportunity attack and hopefully stop them in their tracks thanks to Sentinel.

However I think one point against this would be that the Moon Druid doesn't need to be tanky because, thanks to the Paladin's Mounted Combatant feat, it'll rarely even get attacked. In which case perhaps one of the more caster-type Druids would be better. Thoughts?

[PeteNutButter]

So I guess you're basically thinking Moon Druid instead of Cavalier/Rogue? I suppose that could work. In which case the Barbarian could maybe grab Polearm Master and keep back, making the Paladin and Druid the more common targets. And if the Moon Druid takes Sentinel like the Cavalier/Rogue used to, not only would it get an attack whenever the Paladin is hit (including redirected attacks thanks to Mounted Combatant) but if an enemy tries to get around them and head over to the Barbarian (who wouldn't benefit from the Ancestral Protectors) the Moon Druid can take an opportunity attack and hopefully stop them in their tracks thanks to Sentinel.

However I think one point against this would be that the Moon Druid doesn't need to be tanky because, thanks to the Paladin's Mounted Combatant feat, it'll rarely even get attacked. In which case perhaps one of the more caster-type Druids would be better. Thoughts?

Then you're back to brown bear and vulnerable to disintegrate.

How about Bard + polymorph or true polymorph. Support the team and be a mount?

[EdenIndustries]

Then you're back to brown bear and vulnerable to disintegrate.

I'm not sure that's true though, did you see my discovery of that tweet or nickl_2000's mention of the clarification in Sage Advice?


How about Bard + polymorph or true polymorph. Support the team and be a mount?
I thought about that but the problem with Polymorph is you lose your class features. If it were possible for a Bard to polymorph himself and still toss out Bardic Inspiration, then we'd really have something!

[PeteNutButter]

I'm not sure that's true though, did you see my discovery of that tweet or nickl_2000's mention of the clarification in Sage Advice?

The only thing official is the sage advice compendium which says RAW he dies, RAI he reverts. That's why I said it's up to the DM. It's all theorycrafting anyways, but I always assume when white-rooming that the DM will always rule against you. It's just safer that way if you ever intended to actually play the stuff.



I thought about that but the problem with Polymorph is you lose your class features. If it were possible for a Bard to polymorph himself and still toss out Bardic Inspiration, then we'd really have something!

Not with True Polymorph... Which is admittedly a very overpowered spell in it's own right, which contributes to the breaking down of the game at high level.

[EdenIndustries]

The only thing official is the sage advice compendium which says RAW he dies, RAI he reverts. That's why I said it's up to the DM. It's all theorycrafting anyways, but I always assume when white-rooming that the DM will always rule against you. It's just safer that way if you ever intended to actually play the stuff.



Not with True Polymorph... Which is admittedly a very overpowered spell in it's own right, which contributes to the breaking down of the game at high level.

Heh you are right about true polymorph but as a 9th-level spell I don't know that I can really base the strategy around it.

Well let's back up a step - what are your thoughts about Cavalier? Is it too redundant, are the higher-level class features worth it, does the limited # of uses per long rest bother you as much as it bothers me? :smallsmile:

Perhaps if we iron out what the Cavalier is contributing to this whole setup we can have a better idea of whether replacing him with another caster is going to be the way to go.

[krugaan]

Caster of disintegrate: "I counterspell."

As for whether it works... well it's DM dependent. Personally, I think it's a fair weakness for someone who is using a level 2 ability in end game. The only official thing, actual sage advice specifically says it does kill the druid.

EDIT: Maybe just have a full moon druid fill that role? It seems like a waste for the barbarian (AKA a very tanky class) to be the one that can't get hit. A polymorhped or later true polymorphed ally could be huge sized, which would give the rider advantage to attack large foes.

Doesn't this break the "only one leveled spell per turn" dictum?

[PeteNutButter]

Heh you are right about true polymorph but as a 9th-level spell I don't know that I can really base the strategy around it.

Well let's back up a step - what are your thoughts about Cavalier? Is it too redundant, are the higher-level class features worth it, does the limited # of uses per long rest bother you as much as it bothers me? :smallsmile:

Perhaps if we iron out what the Cavalier is contributing to this whole setup we can have a better idea of whether replacing him with another caster is going to be the way to go.

I like Cavalier, but I don't think his high level abilities are worth it, just take sentinel and you are most of the way there. I feel like the mount should be the cavalier himself as his ability to give disadvantage to everyone else is always on. It's just the attacks that have limited uses.

What about just using enlarge spell or a small paladin? Kobold paladin sitting on top of a cavalier's shoulders? Or have the cavalier just be a moon druid x/cavalier 3. The rider should be as tanky as possible in every way, and the mount gives whatever he attacks permanent disadvantage to attack the rider, and can't be targeted himself... That's so cheesy.

[EdenIndustries]

I like Cavalier, but I don't think his high level abilities are worth it, just take sentinel and you are most of the way there.
Yeah that's basically my thought too. I want to like it more...but I just don't.



I feel like the mount should be the cavalier himself as his ability to give disadvantage to everyone else is always on. It's just the attacks that have limited uses.

What about just using enlarge spell or a small paladin? Kobold paladin sitting on top of a cavalier's shoulders? Or have the cavalier just be a moon druid x/cavalier 3. The rider should be as tanky as possible in every way, and the mount gives whatever he attacks permanent disadvantage to attack the rider, and can't be targeted himself... That's so cheesy.

Moon Druid X/Cavalier 3 could work. Although I can't help but think some of the Moon Druid is wasted if nothing will be targeting it anyway, but maybe I'm just complicating it.

In terms of the Barbarian character, do you see any value going beyond level 14, or is there a multiclass that could add some extra defensive benefits into the mix?

[Zene]

This is great. I love party synergies, and you’ve engineered some good ones here.

A couple thoughts:

1) You do need a second counterspeller in there, for when the enemy counterspells your Abjurer’s counterspell. I’d recommend either:
- a lore bard (great counterspeller, can use magical secrets to pick up defensive spells like Death Ward and Aid, and Cutting Words has great defensive applications) —have him dip hexblade 2 for added survivability and repelling blast to move the enemies around to the tanks’ advantage; or
- a wild sorcerer (subtle or extended counterspeller, and can bend luck to help or hinder rolls) —have him dip hexblade 2 as well for similar reasons as the bard.

2) I agree with PNB above that a tough wisdom character would help round out the team. I’d recommend long death monk. He doesn’t have many party-buffing or party-protecting abilities, but his ability to get to any enemy (especially casters— take mage slayer for extra fun) and stun them, plus never go down, plus proficiency in all saves and evasion so he can, say, walk right through a prismatic wall and smack its caster upside the head, plus being the wisdom skills guy...imo a perfect add to round out the team.

[Vaz]

Caster of disintegrate: "I counterspell."

Marilith Cultist Wizard and double counterspell. And Simulacrum.

[EdenIndustries]

This is great. I love party synergies, and you’ve engineered some good ones here.

A couple thoughts:

1) You do need a second counterspeller in there, for when the enemy counterspells your Abjurer’s counterspell. I’d recommend either:
- a lore bard (great counterspeller, can use magical secrets to pick up defensive spells like Death Ward and Aid, and Cutting Words has great defensive applications) —have him dip hexblade 2 for added survivability and repelling blast to move the enemies around to the tanks’ advantage; or
- a wild sorcerer (subtle or extended counterspeller, and can bend luck to help or hinder rolls) —have him dip hexblade 2 as well for similar reasons as the bard.

2) I agree with PNB above that a tough wisdom character would help round out the team. I’d recommend long death monk. He doesn’t have many party-buffing or party-protecting abilities, but his ability to get to any enemy (especially casters— take mage slayer for extra fun) and stun them, plus never go down, plus proficiency in all saves and evasion so he can, say, walk right through a prismatic wall and smack its caster upside the head, plus being the wisdom skills guy...imo a perfect add to round out the team.

These are some good ideas, but the big question is: who gets the boot from the team to add these guys? If I add a Lore Bard and a Long Death Monk, then I'd have to remove two of the existing characters. I mean I wouldn't have to, but with a sufficiently large party size it's going to be nigh-invincible, so I like to try to think of 4-person squads where possible.

So with that notion, who would you remove in favour of the Lore Bard and Long Death Monk?

[JellyPooga]

As an interesting side-project, how would this team differ if the parameters were changed to;

- the best team to defend a single NPC ally?
- the best team to defend multiple NPC allies?
- the best team to defend a small fortified structure?
- the best team to defend a city?

Theorycraft; Go!

[EdenIndustries]

As an interesting side-project, how would this team differ if the parameters were changed to;

- the best team to defend a single NPC ally?

Theorycraft; Go!

For this one I'd say (depending on the situation):

A team of Ancestral Guardian Barbarians. They can mark as many targets as there are Barbarians and each use their reaction to reduce damage to that target.
A single Sorcerer to twin invisibility on the NPC and himself and just walk around without anyone noticing :smallsmile:

[Vaz]

As an interesting side-project, how would this team differ if the parameters were changed to;

- the best team to defend a single NPC ally?
- the best team to defend multiple NPC allies?
- the best team to defend a small fortified structure?
- the best team to defend a city?

Theorycraft; Go!

The Wizard never changes - being able to cast Simulacrum is the most important defense. Not only does it vastly improve the ability of the party (without getting into NI Simulacrum), you can create an Illusory Double of the person you're protecting. Either it's another party member putting out ridiculous damage, or it's the (a) protectee with a flat 50/50 chance. Defending a Group of People is only a Demiplane away.

Wizard has the ability to Glyph of Warding an entire city given enough time. Animate Objects, Mephits, and Elementals gives you access to large numbers of defenders without needing to delve into Necromancy or cheesing Simulacrum, while providing some huge AoE with Meteor Storm to wipe out whole swathes of enemy forces daily, while being able to Gate in enemy creatures.

[Zene]

These are some good ideas, but the big question is: who gets the boot from the team to add these guys? If I add a Lore Bard and a Long Death Monk, then I'd have to remove two of the existing characters. I mean I wouldn't have to, but with a sufficiently large party size it's going to be nigh-invincible, so I like to try to think of 4-person squads where possible.

So with that notion, who would you remove in favour of the Lore Bard and Long Death Monk?

Ah, I gotcha. Well with that in mind, I'd say just make sure the Trickster takes counterspell... Not sure if it's worth booting anyone from the team for either of these roles. Or if you're definitely doing a simulacrum, that can fill your second counterspeller role. Neither would come online until high levels, of course.

I do think you'll have a bit of a gap in the Wisdom skills area (including the all-important Perception), but that's not directly related to defense; and with only 4 on a team, you are going to have to make sacrifices somewhere.

In theory, the Wizard is the most SAD member, so he could point-buy a decent wisdom score and pick up some of the skills; or, since I agree with you Wizard capstones suck --in fact, after they hit 17 I'd personally consider multiclassing (although grain of salt, it seems most folks disagree with me that the L18 wizard benefits aren't great)-- he could take a 13 in cha, and pick up Bard 2 for jack of all trades. Instead of a cleric dip, with a 13 cha he could do a hexblade dip, which gives him medium armor, shield, and armor of agathys (which IMO is a fantastic spell for an Abjurer). So he could do Abjurer 17 / Bard 2 / Hexblade 1; or if you don't care about the skill gaps, Abjurer 19 / Hexblade 1.

[EdenIndustries]

Ah, I gotcha. Well with that in mind, I'd say just make sure the Trickster takes counterspell... Not sure if it's worth booting anyone from the team for either of these roles. Or if you're definitely doing a simulacrum, that can fill your second counterspeller role. Neither would come online until high levels, of course.

I do think you'll have a bit of a gap in the Wisdom skills area (including the all-important Perception), but that's not directly related to defense; and with only 4 on a team, you are going to have to make sacrifices somewhere.

In theory, the Wizard is the most SAD member, so he could point-buy a decent wisdom score and pick up some of the skills; or, since I agree with you Wizard capstones suck --in fact, after they hit 17 I'd personally consider multiclassing (although grain of salt, it seems most folks disagree with me that the L18 wizard benefits aren't great)-- he could take a 13 in cha, and pick up Bard 2 for jack of all trades. Instead of a cleric dip, with a 13 cha he could do a hexblade dip, which gives him medium armor, shield, and armor of agathys (which IMO is a fantastic spell for an Abjurer). So he could do Abjurer 17 / Bard 2 / Hexblade 1; or if you don't care about the skill gaps, Abjurer 19 / Hexblade 1.

That's a fair point about Perception. If I go with the Barbarian/Druid, it'll naturally need a bit of Wisdom and could shore up some Wisdom skills. And possibly even benefit from a range of Wildshaped forms to do some exceptional perception-type stuff. So that may make it a bit less problematic than it would be otherwise.

Regarding Hexblade, Armor of Agathys is a good spell, I agree. Of course if he's multiclassing, Cleric also has a lot of defensive goodies. That's a tough one. Forge Cleric in particular could be great, especially in the early game, with that floating +1. And although there may come a time when that +1 is no longer needed (such as when everyone gets magical armour and weapons) I can't see any other level 1 Cleric features that are really all that handy.

[EdenIndustries]

Actually I just realized that Warlock and Armor of Agathys is a ludicrous combination with this team. Check this out:

Cast AoA
If hit, we probably have resistance. Either thanks to Barbarian's Ancestral Protectors, or maybe because we used Blade Ward (which normally is not great, but kind of works for this purpose).
After factoring in resistance, Ancestral Guardian Barbarian will use Spirit Shield (the effect of which is of course magnified because of resistance)
If there is still damage, Heavy Armor Master kicks in to reduce the damage by 3 (and again it's really reduced by 6 off the initial damage since we have resistance, if you want to look at it that way)
If there is still damage, the Abjuration Ward will soak it up.
If somehow there is still damage, the temp HP from AoA will take some. Although by this point, maybe there is no more damage left to take!


So basically, through all that there seems like a fairly good chance that AoA could stick around for a long time after all that damage reduction that takes place even before the temp HP get touched. So if things go our way, we'll be dishing out cold damage like crazy without the temp HP even going away. Which means we'd be a massive damage sponge and damage dealer!

Which means Abjuration Wizard 18/Cleric 1 (for Heavy Armor, the prereq for Heavy Armor Master)/Warlock 1 (for AoA) seems like a great way to go!

[PeteNutButter]

Actually I just realized that Warlock and Armor of Agathys is a ludicrous combination with this team. Check this out:

Cast AoA
If hit, we probably have resistance. Either thanks to Barbarian's Ancestral Protectors, or maybe because we used Blade Ward (which normally is not great, but kind of works for this purpose).
After factoring in resistance, Ancestral Guardian Barbarian will use Spirit Shield (the effect of which is of course magnified because of resistance)
If there is still damage, Heavy Armor Master kicks in to reduce the damage by 3 (and again it's really reduced by 6 off the initial damage since we have resistance, if you want to look at it that way)
If there is still damage, the Abjuration Ward will soak it up.
If somehow there is still damage, the temp HP from AoA will take some. Although by this point, maybe there is no more damage left to take!


So basically, through all that there seems like a fairly good chance that AoA could stick around for a long time after all that damage reduction that takes place even before the temp HP get touched. So if things go our way, we'll be dishing out cold damage like crazy without the temp HP even going away. Which means we'd be a massive damage sponge and damage dealer!

Which means Abjuration Wizard 18/Cleric 1 (for Heavy Armor, the prereq for Heavy Armor Master)/Warlock 1 (for AoA) seems like a great way to go!

That's pretty MAD, needing a 13 in cha int and wis, as well as a decent str (for heavy armor without being slowed) and a decent con... Plus you'd want a good int, not just 13. Fighter would probably be easier for heavy armor.

[EdenIndustries]

That's pretty MAD, needing a 13 in cha int and wis, as well as a decent str (for heavy armor without being slowed) and a decent con... Plus you'd want a good int, not just 13. Fighter would probably be easier for heavy armor.

It's definitely MAD, but personally I find characters that double-down on a theme and their strengths at the expense of exposing their weaknesses pretty endearing :smallsmile:

To that end, I'd probably dump str, and keep con and dex as high as I can (which won't be high) while still maxing int and ensuring multiclass requirements in wis and cha. It's true that if the defenses ever fail, the slow speed and middling con will make the character an easy target. But focusing on the idea of keeping the defenses up at all costs would make it a big part of the appeal of the character for me!

[PeteNutButter]

It's definitely MAD, but personally I find characters that double-down on a theme and their strengths at the expense of exposing their weaknesses pretty endearing :smallsmile:

To that end, I'd probably dump str, and keep con and dex as high as I can (which won't be high) while still maxing int and ensuring multiclass requirements in wis and cha. It's true that if the defenses ever fail, the slow speed and middling con will make the character an easy target. But focusing on the idea of keeping the defenses up at all costs would make it a big part of the appeal of the character for me!

You could have the AoA abjuration wizard be the RIDER for the mounted combatant trick, and dump dex and str, making the movement speed irrelevant. Redirecting attacks from the mount to the rider who is now giving some serious thorns damage is a cool trick.

[EdenIndustries]

You could have the AoA abjuration wizard be the RIDER for the mounted combatant trick, and dump dex and str, making the movement speed irrelevant. Redirecting attacks from the mount to the rider who is now giving some serious thorns damage is a cool trick.

Ah, now that's quite an idea...so concievably I could have the Wizard riding the Wildshaped Barbarian/Druid, with the Paladin and Cavalier/Rogue flanking him. If I want to get nuts I could have everyone except the Wizard take Sentinel, so that whenever someone attacks the Wizard (or the mount, thanks to Mounted Combatant) the attacker would get hammered from AoA and a series of opportunity attacks. The last piece of the puzzle would be: how to make the Wizard such a tasty, juicy target that enemies wouldn't bother targeting anyone else. Hmm....

[Zene]

Actually I just realized that Warlock and Armor of Agathys is a ludicrous combination with this team. Check this out:

Cast AoA
If hit, we probably have resistance. Either thanks to Barbarian's Ancestral Protectors, or maybe because we used Blade Ward (which normally is not great, but kind of works for this purpose).
After factoring in resistance, Ancestral Guardian Barbarian will use Spirit Shield (the effect of which is of course magnified because of resistance)
If there is still damage, Heavy Armor Master kicks in to reduce the damage by 3 (and again it's really reduced by 6 off the initial damage since we have resistance, if you want to look at it that way)
If there is still damage, the Abjuration Ward will soak it up.
If somehow there is still damage, the temp HP from AoA will take some. Although by this point, maybe there is no more damage left to take!


So basically, through all that there seems like a fairly good chance that AoA could stick around for a long time after all that damage reduction that takes place even before the temp HP get touched. So if things go our way, we'll be dishing out cold damage like crazy without the temp HP even going away. Which means we'd be a massive damage sponge and damage dealer!

Which means Abjuration Wizard 18/Cleric 1 (for Heavy Armor, the prereq for Heavy Armor Master)/Warlock 1 (for AoA) seems like a great way to go!

Nice! It's actually slightly even better than that -- according to JC tweets, it goes through Abjuration Ward first (though AoA damage still triggers!), then HAM, then resistance is applied, then temp HP (which would include AoA), then regular HP.

Which means if you cast, say, a 6th-level AoA, then every hit your Arcane Ward takes is hitting back for 30 cold damage. The bad news is that the ward doesn't benefit from resistance, and the HAM reduction ends up counting for less.

[EdenIndustries]

Nice! It's actually slightly even better than that -- according to JC tweets, it goes through Abjuration Ward first (though AoA damage still triggers!), then HAM, then resistance is applied, then temp HP (which would include AoA), then regular HP.

Which means if you cast, say, a 6th-level AoA, then every hit your Arcane Ward takes is hitting back for 30 cold damage. The bad news is that the ward doesn't benefit from resistance, and the HAM reduction ends up counting for less.

Hmm...that seems like it's worse, not better. What am I missing?

[Zene]

Hmm...that seems like it's worse, not better. What am I missing?

Well, better in the sense that your ward (a fairly easily renewable respurce IME) takes the damage first, but still allows your AoA to proc. So depending on playstyle, you may be able to keep AoA up through way more damage than otherwise, just keep renewing it.

But I suppose if the resistance is the part you were counting on, that part’s definitely worse.

[EdenIndustries]

Well, better in the sense that your ward (a fairly easily renewable respurce IME) takes the damage first, but still allows your AoA to proc. So depending on playstyle, you may be able to keep AoA up through way more damage than otherwise, just keep renewing it.

But I suppose if the resistance is the part you were counting on, that part’s definitely worse.

Ah yeah I see what you mean. Yeah I was hoping resistance would make everything last longer, but I guess it was too much of a good thing! :smallsmile: