A feat to gain extra attack: what are the problems with it?

[Trum4n1208]

I've got a fighter/cleric multiclass in mind, but don't want to take 5 levels of fighter just for the extra attack. Would a feat that grants extra attack be too much? I'm thinking something like this:

Battle Training:
- add +1 to Strength or Dexterity*
- gain the Extra Attack feature at level 5 if you don't get it normally.

Thoughts?

*Edit: striking the half-feat portion, per the advice below.

Second Edit: thanks for the input all, I appreciate it. I'll leave this feat on the workshop floor and take the level tax.

[DeTess]

It should most definitely not be a half-feat in my opinion. This would represent a significant increase in offensive power for a lot of different characters, so I'd make it a full feat. Otherwise, It's probably okay as you've worded it now.

[Spiderguy24]

As a full feat this would be pretty good in any game.

[Daphne]

I've got a fighter/cleric multiclass in mind

Play a Paladin.

[Lord8Ball]

In my opinion, this proposed feat is too powerful even without the ASI. My reasoning is that giving away a class feature for a feat outclasses most other feats. Take for instance martial adept which gives you a few maneuvers, but you can only use it once per rest. There are also feats that require certain conditions for a free reaction attack like polearm master and sentinal. This feat would double your dpr. No feat I have seen does anything close to this magnitude. If I were to edit this feat I'd change this feat so that it would be active at 11th level where the fighter would normally get their third attack as not to become op in the early game.

[Trum4n1208]

Play a Paladin.

Paladin didn't quite have the flavor I was shooting for, and we already have a Paladin, so I don't want to step on her toes too much. I'm keeping the option open; I can re-fluff it as needed.

[Aett_Thorn]

I think that the problem in many cases would be that features that are kind of balanced around having only one attack, or needing to use the off-hand (and therefore the bonus action) to get a second attack. For instance, on a Rogue, this would (roughly) double their chances of landing a Sneak Attack per round, melee Clerics would get a second chance to land their hit with the extra damage, etc. Now, that's not always unbalancing, but it's something to watch out for.

In other cases, like a Bladelock, you're basically switching an Invocation for a Feat, which would be handy probably. But then you're not unbalancing anything, just allowing a sort of quid-pro-quo tradeoff.

I think that the worst potential impact of it would be on something like a Lore Bard vs a Valor Bard. On a Dex-based Bard, there would be little reason to go Valor over Lore if you could just use a feat to get extra attack (and potentially a level earlier).

[The_Jette]

If you're playing a Fighter/whatever, wouldn't you not qualify for this feat, since Fighter does normally get Extra Attack at 5th level?

[LeonBH]

It's pretty bad. It shouldn't be a feat because 5 levels in a martial class is the tax to get Extra Attack.

Just from a design perspective, you get this feat at level 4 as a single classed character, but it doesn't activate til level 5. And if you went V.Human to get it, then you have a feat that doesn't work for the first 5 levels.

Since the first level non-martials get a feat post level 5 is level 8, then level 8 is the earliest this feat can be taken, assuming no multiclassing. If you're going to make Extra Attack into a feat, which I don't think is a good idea, it should require a minimum character level of 8.

I will also echo the others that it shouldn't be a half feat as well. The Extra Attack feature itself already doubles your DPR.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

If you're playing a Fighter/whatever, wouldn't you not qualify for this feat, since Fighter does normally get Extra Attack at 5th level?

That's my reading of it.

I agree with Leon, as well.

[Lord8Ball]

You should look at the war cleric subclass. I believe that there is a feature that allows you to make 2 attacks every round up to your wisdom modifier. Also using a feat to gain an invocation is a cool and balanced idea and I'd definitely allow it as long as the invocations you can pick correlate with warlock levels.

[bid]

I've got a fighter/cleric multiclass in mind, but don't want to take 5 levels of fighter just for the extra attack. Would a feat that grants extra attack be too much? I'm thinking something like this:

Battle Training:
- gain the Extra Attack feature at level 5 if you don't get it normally.

Thoughts?
Still too strong.

If you want 2 attacks, use TWF or get PAM.

[Mikal]

I've got a fighter/cleric multiclass in mind, but don't want to take 5 levels of fighter just for the extra attack. Would a feat that grants extra attack be too much? I'm thinking something like this:

Battle Training:
- add +1 to Strength or Dexterity*
- gain the Extra Attack feature at level 5 if you don't get it normally.

Thoughts?

*Edit: striking the half-feat portion, per the advice below

That's about as balanced as...

Magic Training:
-Add +1 to Wisdom, Intelligence, or Charisma
-Gain the ability to cast a 3rd level spell attribute modifier times per day as if you were a 5th level caster.

So... no. Bad bad idea. Your taxes for higher level spells is to get to higher level. Your taxes for extra attack is to get to higher level.

[Trum4n1208]

That's about as balanced as...

Magic Training:
-Add +1 to Wisdom, Intelligence, or Charisma
-Gain the ability to cast a 3rd level spell attribute modifier times per day as if you were a 5th level caster.

So... no. Bad bad idea. Your taxes for higher level spells is to get to higher level. Your taxes for extra attack is to get to higher level.

Fair enough. I wasn't quite sure, so I wanted to bounce it off some people who think differently from me. I'll accept the level tax and live with it.

Thanks for your time, everyone!

[Mikal]

Fair enough. I wasn't quite sure, so I wanted to bounce it off some people who think differently from me. I'll accept the level tax and live with it.

Thanks for your time, everyone!

No worries. If you really want to have a pseudo extra attack there are several ways to do so which have been mentioned. You could also try Shield Attack as well if you're going sword and board.

[Chugger]

You should look at the war cleric subclass. I believe that there is a feature that allows you to make 2 attacks every round up to your wisdom modifier. Also using a feat to gain an invocation is a cool and balanced idea and I'd definitely allow it as long as the invocations you can pick correlate with warlock levels.

Right, just go war cleric. Their ability is not a feat - if you use the attack option (I believe it is attack with a weapon but don't have phb on me atm), you can use this ability to make another weapon attack with your bonus action. You can do it your wis modifier times per long rest. You can channel divin on a miss and add +10 once per short rest, twice after lvl 6.

Sometimes you'll be using spiritual weapon for your b.a. instead, so it won't really hurt that you only have 3, 4 or 5 b.a. melee hits per long rest. You save those for fights that matter.

ALSO you can go var human and take magic init - and take the SCAG cantrips BB and GFB (booming blade and/or green flame blade) to make being a melee cleric more beefy.

[Finney]

I've got a fighter/cleric multiclass in mind, but don't want to take 5 levels of fighter just for the extra attack. Would a feat that grants extra attack be too much? I'm thinking something like this:

Battle Training:
- add +1 to Strength or Dexterity*
- gain the Extra Attack feature at level 5 if you don't get it normally.

Thoughts?

*Edit: striking the half-feat portion, per the advice below.

Second Edit: thanks for the input all, I appreciate it. I'll leave this feat on the workshop floor and take the level tax.

I think it would be more balanced if you made it more like the War Priest feature from the War domain, adding +1 to strength or dexterity and allowing the character to make one weapon attack as a bonus action when they take the attack action.

The feature could be used a number of times equal to character's strength or dexterity (whichever they used the +1 to raise) modifier, with all expended uses regained after a long rest.

[Nifft]

I think it would be more balanced if you made it more like the War Priest feature from the War domain, adding +1 to strength or dexterity and allowing the character to make one weapon attack as a bonus action when they take the attack action.

The feature could be used a number of times equal to character's strength or dexterity (whichever they used the +1 to raise) modifier, with all expended uses regained after a long rest.

That would be an interesting feat even for a character who gets normal Extra Attack.

[krugaan]

How about a gloom ranger style feat instead?

If you take the attack action and miss a target, you may spend a bonus action to make another attack on the same target.

Doesn't double DPR, but it does raise it, particularly with other feats.

[Tygros]

Maybe make it use a bonus action like twf and limit how often it can be used? Something along the lines of this:

Backswing:

On your turn, when you take the attack action you may use your bonus action make a second attack with the same weapon. You may use this ability a number of times equal to your strength modifier (min 1) before taking a long or short rest.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Fair enough. I wasn't quite sure, so I wanted to bounce it off some people who think differently from me. I'll accept the level tax and live with it.

Thanks for your time, everyone!
If you're already planning on taking 5 levels for extra attack, have you considered taking ranger instead of fighter? You'd get to expand your spell slots, grab a few new spells, and the hunter subclass could make you pretty formidable in melee.

The fighter has a few good benefits of its own (action surge, second wind, heavy armor so you aren't locked into specific domains to achieve it, the subclasses can grant some neat twists, great weapon fighting and dueling are missing from the ranger's lists), but I'd be tempted to net the greater spellcasting potency and utility granted by ranger.

Barbarian's neat too, if you're okay with limiting your casting options once you start raging. Notably, you could get away without using armor at all and things like Channel Divinity aren't affected by your rage.

Paladin doesn't mesh as neatly thanks to Charisma casting, but still- if you can afford the serious MAD, you could get an excellent healing subpool out of Lay on Hands, powerful smites, more healing support, a magic steed, and you're only one level off from getting the aura. Something to consider if you roll stats and get four good ones. Probably wouldn't do it if I wasn't rolling, though.

[Talamare]

Martial Arts Training -
- If you declare the Attack Action during your turn you may perform an Unarmed Attack as a bonus action
- Your Unarmed Attacks are d4 damage dice
- You may stand from Prone with 5ft of movement instead of half your speed

[Hrugner]

Restrict it to people who make and attack with one one handed weapon with the additional requirement that the other hand not be holding a shield, weapon or improvised weapon. Killing it's synergy with other things should bring it to a good place. To make it less weird about coming online at 5th level, make the extra attack require your bonus action until 5th level.

[djreynolds]

How much cleric are you planning on?

Divine strike is one attack, if you make to 8th level Cleric it will keep you competitive with the other martial types. And a 14th, you get it again.

But flip it, grab fighter and just get to 5th level cleric for spiritual guardian. This way you will not have to pump so much into wisdom and strength.

An 11th level fighter/ 5th level cleric could be fun, 3 attacks and spirit guardians

But I think straight up tempest cleric with magic initiate to grab booming blade is simple and awesome

[Arkhios]

"Extra Attack at 5th level if you don't get it normally" would cause College of Valor (probably College of Swords, too) lose its glamor, since then almost every bard would choose College of Lore instead.

Blade Pact Warlock would become obsolete choice entirely free up one choice of Eldritch Invocation, but I feel it's still a bit fiddly.

When designing feats, I'd recommend comparing the design and its impact to all classes. Personally, this result feels very bad.

I wouldn't allow this feat. However, if you're the DM and/or you insist and/or can convince your DM it's a good idea, I would delay the Extra Attack at the very least to 6th level.

[mer.c]

I’ve put a lot of thought into this too lately. I think making it require level 8 would be better than 5; you get a feat there anyways, and some martial-ish subclasses get their extra attack or similar ability at either 6 or 8.

Lots of posters are saying that this doubles the DPR of a class, but I don’t think that’s the case. First, lots of non-martial classes have higher DPR tied to a resource, so it’s just sustained DPR we’re talking about. Even then, it can double the damage of your Attack action, but not if you have a bonus-action attack or a once-per-turn rider effect, which many classes do. On top of that, most kits that don’t have Extra Attack do considerably less sustained damage with their attack action than with a cantrip. Doubling the Attack action’s damage isn’t the same as doubling their sustained damage if their sustained damage is higher than their Attack damage. ASM to damage and especially magical weapons can muck with this, but it still holds true in my experience. And outside Shillelagh/Magic Stone, their higher ASM to hit with their casting stat is probably going to counteract some of this anyways. (Bladelocks already get an extra attack, so I’m leaving them aside.)

You also have to weigh the Attack damage against the opportunity cost and damage of a SCAG cantrip. A feat for Magic Initiate can give you gobs of DPR that is incompatible with the Attack action. (Along with giving a second cantrip, or both of SCAG’s, and a spell slot, and a spell.) Doing 1d6+3 twice with your melee weapon at level 5-10 isn’t going to break the game balance when for the same feat cost you could do 1d6+3 plus 1d8 with a 2d8 (+ maybe Int/Cha) rider effect. Let alone the level-11 cantrip damage increase.

Of course you’re getting extra goodies like increased Cleric bonus damage or Sneak Attack chance, plus extra buffs and equipment m, so this isn’t the complete picture. I just wanted to point out that this very rarely actually doubles a PC’s at-will damage.

Overall, I’d probably be OK with a level-8 feat that did this, but I might also want to make it consume the bonus action while not being compatible with Extra Attack to keep it weaker than intrinsically getting the Extra Attack feature. But that may not be necessary considering there are only 3 levels where this would be available before cantrip a start doing 3dX damage, narrowing the gap.

[Hrugner]

I'm probably missing something, but I'm pretty sure that the only class that doubles their DPR from an extra attack would be druids provided they could find a form that had one really big attack. Controlling for that should be enough. Limiting it to attacks made with one handed melee weapons with no shield or weapon in the other hand should ensure that it's not a big boost.

[Vaz]

Yeah, I'd allow, sans half feat bonus. I'd make it 8th level minimum, but allow a 15th level character with Extra Attack or some other ability to attack twice when they take the Attack Action to get a 3rd one.

I've given it as a Boon to several party members without issue between party balance, and I could always uptick other party members abilities.

If you want to test it, give the party member in question a specific magic weapon that gives them the ability. That way, when a better magic item comes along, you can judge the difference between tbe party members toe stepping ability while have it more organic than here have this ability, oh wait no its too powerful, take it away.

[Nifft]

I'm probably missing something, but I'm pretty sure that the only class that doubles their DPR from an extra attack would be druids provided they could find a form that had one really big attack. Controlling for that should be enough. Limiting it to attacks made with one handed melee weapons with no shield or weapon in the other hand should ensure that it's not a big boost.

If the Druid is in a different form, then I think the PC loses any Feat abilities.