Building A Spell-Less Bard

[Palanan]

Ever has my heart desired it thus: that there should be a chanter of names, a singer of songs, mind-cunning, sword-clever, a firebrand to the hearts of men, all by his wits and his words alone.

In other words, I want a bard that does everything a bard should do, but without spellcasting. There’s all manner of bard archetypes, but unless I’ve missed one, none of them trade out spellcasting.

So if I wanted to lose spellcasting from a bard, what would be a useful and balanced replacement? What would be worth trading bard spells for?

[noob]

What would be worth trading spells for would be tons of Spell like abilities or prestige or the ability to create spellcasters out of nothing.

[Psyren]

In other words, I want a bard that does everything a bard should do, but without spellcasting. There’s all manner of bard archetypes, but unless I’ve missed one, none of them trade out spellcasting.

Have you tried the reverse? i.e. Starting with a different class, that picks up bardic performance via archetype or VMC? Tons of options there.

Your blurb said "singer of songs" so I assume that part is non-negotiable, but are there any other parts of the bard chassis you could do without so we can narrow it down?

[TiaC]

Ever has my heart desired it thus: that there should be a chanter of names, a singer of songs, mind-cunning, sword-clever, a firebrand to the hearts of men, all by his wits and his words alone.

In other words, I want a bard that does everything a bard should do, but without spellcasting. There’s all manner of bard archetypes, but unless I’ve missed one, none of them trade out spellcasting.

So if I wanted to lose spellcasting from a bard, what would be a useful and balanced replacement? What would be worth trading bard spells for?

Play a Rubato (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/dreamscarred-press-bard-archetypes/rubato-bard-archetype) with golden lion and then focus your feats on music? You'll have music and swording but no spells, it should make you pretty effective.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
Have you tried the reverse? i.e. Starting with a different class, that picks up bardic performance via archetype or VMC? Tons of options there.

Your blurb said "singer of songs" so I assume that part is non-negotiable, but are there any other parts of the bard chassis you could do without so we can narrow it down?

I’d rather keep as much of the bard chassis as possible—all of it, really. Skills, knowledges, lore, bardic performance, the whole package. Just don’t want the spells.

I am really, really not a fan of VMC, and would rather not try to stack archetypes, etc. Instead of cobbling together an almost-bard draped over some other class, I’d rather just find a replacement (or set of replacements) for the one part of the bard chassis I don’t want to include.


Originally Posted by TiaC
Play a Rubato with golden lion and then focus your feats on music? You'll have music and swording but no spells, it should make you pretty effective.

Thanks, but I should have mentioned I’m not looking for 3PP material; I’m looking for viable replacement features from official Paizo sources.

Really, I’m just looking for ideas on what would be useful trades for bard spellcasting.

[Florian]

In other words, I want a
.... VMC Bard?

[Palanan]

I think we posted near-simultaneously, so you missed my last comment on VMC above.

[exelsisxax]

I’d rather keep as much of the bard chassis as possible—all of it, really. Skills, knowledges, lore, bardic performance, the whole package. Just don’t want the spells.

I am really, really not a fan of VMC, and would rather not try to stack archetypes, etc. Instead of cobbling together an almost-bard draped over some other class, I’d rather just find a replacement (or set of replacements) for the one part of the bard chassis I don’t want to include.



Thanks, but I should have mentioned I’m not looking for 3PP material; I’m looking for viable replacement features from official Paizo sources.

Really, I’m just looking for ideas on what would be useful trades for bard spellcasting.

Then go visit the homebrew forum, because 1pp has nothing to offer. Skald has no noncasting archetypes, you can't make a bard chassis out of anything else, and you've eliminated 3pp and VMC.

[noob]

Build a reasonable substitution with your gm?
Like asking for faster bardic music progression in exchange for the spells.

[Grod_The_Giant]

So if I wanted to lose spellcasting from a bard, what would be a useful and balanced replacement? What would be worth trading bard spells for?
Some other form of pseudo-casting, basically. Alchemy, psionics, maneuvers, invocations, spheres of power, whatever. I did a spell-less Bard for 3.5 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?392463-The-Bard-v2-%28Spell-less-and-Fixed-List-Caster-Project-Versions%29) which could probably be ported to Pathfinder. It dropped casting for souped-up music abilities, each with a big splashy "chord" that takes effect immediately, and a less powerful "refrain" that can be maintained for a while. Effects range from basic Inspire Competence and slow fear effects to driving people permanently insane or pouring negative levels onto everyone who can hear you play.

[Psyren]

Then go visit the homebrew forum, because 1pp has nothing to offer. Skald has no noncasting archetypes, you can't make a bard chassis out of anything else, and you've eliminated 3pp and VMC.

Basically this, yeah.


Some other form of pseudo-casting, basically. Alchemy, psionics, maneuvers, invocations, spheres of power, whatever.

Adding to this list - vestiges, incarnum, truenaming... again though, 3PP/homebrew is your only option for actually transplanting these in.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by noob
...faster bardic music progression in exchange for the spells.

This is exactly the sort of suggestion I’m looking for.

How faster is faster? What would be a reasonable acceleration of the bardic music progression?


Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant
I did a spell-less Bard for 3.5 which could probably be ported to Pathfinder.

Really interesting, thanks. At first glance I’m a little confused by the difference between Cantor and Troubador, but I’ll give this a read.


Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant
…maneuvers….

Maybe not maneuvers themselves, but I’d be interested in some sort of additional martial ability. The simplest approach would be to add the fighter’s feat progression, similar to the feat rogue from Unearthed Arcana, but I have a feeling most people would consider that a poor trade for the loss of spellcasting.

.

[noob]

A fair faster bardic music progression would be twice the rate.(spellcasting is probably something that can not be replaced by stuff that is anywhere close to reasonable but the problem is that spellcasting is just a mechanic for getting op stuff and making it look less op)
But it depends on whenever your gm considers bardic music is powerful or not.

[Treblain]

What about giving them something like Martial Flexibility, but for masterpieces, skald songs, and performances granted by archetypes, so they can access the full range of bardic performances? And a scaling ability to start/maintain multiple performances at once to overcome the action economy issues.

[Baroncognito]

Pathfinder Chronicler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/pathfinder-chronicler/) is essentially "Bard without spells."

[Grod_The_Giant]

This is exactly the sort of suggestion I’m looking for.

How faster is faster? What would be a reasonable acceleration of the bardic music progression?
Hmm... I'd say double the rounds/day and the bonuses, and add the new performance options from the Argent Voice, Busker, Diva, and Sorrowsoul (rather than having them swap out music). Maybe throw in a few Rogue talents, too?



Really interesting, thanks. At first glance I’m a little confused by the difference between Cantor and Troubador, but I’ll give this a read.
Think of them as two archetypes, perhaps. Both types get all the stuff in the base chart, then the Cantor gets traditional spellcasting and the Troubadour gets augmented music.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant
Maybe throw in a few Rogue talents, too?

This I really like. It’s perfect for what I have in mind.

How would you implement this? Would you simply add the rogue talent progression, or should it be modified somehow?


Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant
I'd say double the rounds/day and the bonuses, and add the new performance options from the Argent Voice, Busker, Diva, and Sorrowsoul (rather than having them swap out music).

Also very interesting.


Originally Posted by Treblain
What about giving them something like Martial Flexibility, but for masterpieces, skald songs, and performances granted by archetypes, so they can access the full range of bardic performances? And a scaling ability to start/maintain multiple performances at once to overcome the action economy issues.

This is a really cool idea, thanks. Might go well with Grod's second suggestion.


Originally Posted by Baroncognito
Pathfinder Chronicler is essentially "Bard without spells."

Interesting, thanks. This is kind of a grab-bag PrC, which I suppose is thematic in its own way. Not sure how to apply individual features, though.

[Krav201]

Another option for pathfinder would be bardic masterpieces. I know many of them you trade out a spell known. Instead of getting new spells known you and your GM homebrew a new masterpiece to take its place.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Krav201
Another option for pathfinder would be bardic masterpieces. I know many of them you trade out a spell known. Instead of getting new spells known you and your GM homebrew a new masterpiece to take its place.

Interesting, although these seem to be mainly refluffed spells.


Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant
Maybe throw in a few Rogue talents, too?

This is still at the top of my list. Very interested in how to add this to the bard chassis.

[Psyren]

I know you're against archetypes, but there are several (including for other classes) that grant rogue talent progression, like White Haired Witch. Maybe steal one of their features?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I know you're against archetypes, but there are several (for other classes) that grant rogue talent progression, like White Haired Witch. Maybe steal one of their features?
Add the Archeologist archetype for free, plus the free songs and increased performance bonuses?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
I know you're against archetypes….

I’m certainly not against them in principle, just didn’t want to cobble together a shambling mass of archetypes on a different chassis.

That said, the White-Haired Witch is definitely the direction I’m interested in, but it doesn’t get the first rogue talent until 10th level. Is there another archetype that grants full rogue talent progression? Or would that be too much in exchange for bard spells?

I would love to swap out bard spells for rogue talents on a 1:1 basis, but I don’t have a sense of whether that’s a fair trade.


Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant
Add the Archeologist archetype for free, plus the free songs and increased performance bonuses?

Interesting, although this seems to delay rogue talents by half…as well as losing bardic performance, which I’d wanted to keep. Still worth thinking on, though.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Interesting, although this seems to delay rogue talents by half…as well as losing bardic performance, which I’d wanted to keep. Still worth thinking on, though.
I was thinking slapping it on top of the normal Bardic Music stuff. So you get Performance and Luck.

[Peat]

The Eldritch Scoundrel archetype for Rogues gives up half the skill points, half the Sneak Attack, half the Rogue Talents, and Uncanny Evasion for 6th level spellcasting. So, by Paizo's standards, that's roughly what you'd be adding to a Bard to make it "balanced" for removing the spells.

[Arutema]

Backport the Envoy class from Starfinder? It very much does the Bard's buffing abilities, without actual spellcasting.

You might have to double any attack roll bonuses it gives out, as Starfinder is stingier with attack roll bonuses then Pathfinder.

[ATHATH]

Have you considered simply refluffing your spellcasting and choosing only seemingly-nonmagical spells?

Why don't you like stacking archetypes? It's part of the fun of character creation and doesn't seem to complicate play.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Peat
The Eldritch Scoundrel archetype for Rogues gives up half the skill points, half the Sneak Attack, half the Rogue Talents, and Uncanny Evasion for 6th level spellcasting. So, by Paizo's standards, that's roughly what you'd be adding to a Bard to make it "balanced" for removing the spells.

This is a really good point. The question for me is whether half the sneak attack progression is worth half the rogue talent progression.

If so, that would help convince me that full rogue talent progression is a reasonable trade for bard spellcasting. That’s the direction I’m leaning in right now.


Originally Posted by Arutema
Backport the Envoy class from Starfinder? It very much does the Bard's buffing abilities, without actual spellcasting.

Interesting, although I’ve barely looked at Starfinder. I’d rather not cross over into another system if I can find what I need from Pathfinder.

Besides which, the layout for those books just hurts my eyes. :smallannoyed:

[Grod_The_Giant]

This is a really good point. The question for me is whether half the sneak attack progression is worth half the rogue talent progression.

If so, that would help convince me that full rogue talent progression is a reasonable trade for bard spellcasting. That’s the direction I’m leaning in right now.
It depends a bit on how your group balances things, but in general I'd say "not even a little bit." Full Talent progression AND Sneak Attack seems closer to "6th level spells" in terms of power.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant
Full Talent progression AND Sneak Attack seems closer to "6th level spells" in terms of power.

This is good to know, thanks.

Full rogue talent progression is right in line with what I have in mind—but sneak attack, not so much. Would some number of bonus fighter feats be a decent equivalent for sneak attack?

I’m thinking of the feat rogue from Unearthed Arcana, which swaps full sneak attack for full fighter bonus feats. I know that’s fairly early 3.5 rather than Pathfinder, but the idea fits with what I’m aiming for.

So, would full rogue talent progression and full (or partial) fighter bonus feats balance out the loss of sixth-level spells?

[Psyren]

It depends a bit on how your group balances things, but in general I'd say "not even a little bit." Full Talent progression AND Sneak Attack seems closer to "6th level spells" in terms of power.

It might even be less - the Eldritch Scoundrel grants spellcasting and you still get some talents and SA.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
It might even be less - the Eldritch Scoundrel grants spellcasting and you still get some talents and SA.

I’m inclined to agree with you and Grod on that.

So, would rogue talents and fighter bonus feats (a la feat rogue) work out to a good trade for sixth-level spells?