Rogue’s Sneak Attack vs. Warlock’s Eldritch Blast vs. UA Gunsmith Artificer?

[Grog Logs]

Why is the Rogue’s Sneak Attack (SA) damage conditional? Is there any good mechanical reason; or is it simply tradition? In terms of flavor text, couldn’t we just say that the Rogue so skilled that they always pinpoint their enemy’s weak spot?

The average damage rates for the Rogue (with a hand crossbow and SA) are slightly weaker than the Warlock (using Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast) at levels 5, 11, and 17.

Rogue: 18, 29.5, 40
Warlock: 19, 31.5, 42

The above calculations assume an 100% hit rate and no critical hits. As both classes are using attack roles (vs. saving throws), I am okay with these assumptions. However, if one actually calculated the hit rate, the average damage would be even more in favor of the Warlock (due to more attack rolls), assuming that the Rogue’s SA did not have Advantage but merely a nearby enemy next to their target.


Meanwhile, the UA's Gunsmith Artificer’s Thunder Monger replicates the exact damage (and dice) of the Rogue (weapon + SA). However, the Gunsmith has no conditional statements necessitating having (a) advantage or (b) an enemy being next to your target. Sure, it’s harder for the Gunsmith to obtain Advantage on the dice roll (and the weapon is two-handed and effectively has the loading property), but that seems a small price to pay for guaranteed SA damage. Do Rogue’s in real games frequently have Advantage on their SA? Yes, the Rogue does not have to eat up their bonus action to attack; but if no one is next to you and you don't have to hide to activate SA, then the Rogue doesn't really need their bonus action that round anyway.

TL;DR: Don't SA's conditional requirements occasionally result in circumstances of the Rogue falling WAy behind the damage curve? Or, does the Rogue gaining Advantage to activate their SA occur at a high enough rate to makes up for the occasional times they fail to meet any SA damage?

[jaappleton]

One thing you need to consider is the class as a whole, not just their damage output for their individual attacks.

Warlocks get a very limited number of spells to cast per short rest. So they have to rely on their Cantrips more.

Rogues Sneak Attack has a certain criteria which has to be met, which of course means there's certain times when it isn't applicable. However, they also get excellent defensive options in Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, as well as the utility of being a skill monkey, which can help both outside of combat and in it, depending on your playstyle.

Gunsmith is the only one of the three capable of (eventually) dealing at-will AoE of the three. Something the Rogue can never do, and it has a companion beginning at lv6.

I know it's easy to compare damage output and say, "Why bother with ___?", but you need to consider the sum of their parts.

[Zalabim]

First I should correct that a rogue can use a Light Crossbow or a Rapier instead. There's no real reason to use the weaker Hand Crossbow without a feat supporting it. Then there's a wealth of difference between the three.

A rogue can use a light crossbow or a rapier instead. The gunsmith and warlock are necessarily using ranged attacks.
The Gunsmith's thunder cannon always uses a bonus action and the rogue's sneak attack doesn't have to, but can actually get advantage from using it. Advantage for the rogue is about as good as Hex for the warlock. (Often better for the warlock too, if you have to choose.)
Using weapon attacks instead of spellcasting, or an extra bonus action reload, leaves sneak attack with more synergy elsewhere in the system, from opportunity attacks to magic weapons.
Putting so much damage into a single hit means that sneak attack is able to benefit from certain features more easily, like bardic inspiration and Help (for advantage). Dealing damage this way also means a rogue who gets extra attacks, like with TWF, does a greater portion of their damage with a single hit, not half.
Just in comparison to the warlock, the rogue gets more of its damage from dice and so benefits more from critical hits.

[Galactkaktus]

The average damage rates for the Rogue (with a hand crossbow and SA) are slightly weaker than the Warlock (using Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast) at levels 5, 11, and 17.

Rogue: 18, 29.5, 40
Warlock: 19, 31.5, 42


So what im getting from this comparisson is that the rogue is behind in damage by about 5% without feats if only there was some feat that helped ranged weapons do more damage. Or if you could just get access to haste so you could attacka once with SA during your turn with the haste attack and ready another attack to get another SA on another players turn.

[Unoriginal]

So what im getting from this comparisson is that the rogue is behind in damage by about 5% without feats if only there was some feat that helped ranged weapons do more damage. Or if you could just get access to haste so you could attacka once with SA during your turn with the haste attack and ready another attack to get another SA on another players turn.

Or the Rogue could have a better weapon than a hand crossbow


Why is the Rogue’s Sneak Attack (SA) damage conditional? Is there any good mechanical reason; or is it simply tradition?


The Rogue gets to deliver one high-damage attack in certain conditions, which synergy well with the rest of their capacities. A Rogue will generally hit like a brick once, then retreat until they can do it again. So yes, there is a good mechanical reason.



In terms of flavor text, couldn’t we just say that the Rogue so skilled that they always pinpoint their enemy’s weak spot?


No, we couldn't. 5e sneak attack works even against enemies without weak spots



Do Rogue’s in real games frequently have Advantage on their SA?

That's kinda their thing.



then the Rogue doesn't really need their bonus action that round anyway.

A Rogue will almost always find a good use for that bonus action.



TL;DR: Don't SA's conditional requirements occasionally result in circumstances of the Rogue falling WAy behind the damage curve? Or, does the Rogue gaining Advantage to activate their SA occur at a high enough rate to makes up for the occasional times they fail to meet any SA damage?

You haven't demonstrated that the Rogue was falling way behind the damage curve, even with the data you provided.

[Contrast]

However, if one actually calculated the hit rate, the average damage would be even more in favor of the Warlock (due to more attack rolls)

That's not how that works. Assuming the same hit chance and average damage output, it doesn't make any difference statistically for average damage if you do your damage in one go or in many little chunks. It feels pretty bad as a player to completely miss one turn of course and depending on the enemy you're fighting rogues damage could go to waste (fighting a 4hp goblin? congrats on your 18 damage). Warlocks also get to use a less resisted damage type.

It does mean actual warlock damage per turn will be potentially more tightly clustered to the average than the rogue but this may be countered by the fact that the rogue rolls lots of smaller dice while the warlock rolls fewer, larger dice (I can't be bothered to do the math to check).

It's worth saying I've almost never seen a rogue not able to get their sneak attack. There's usually a target, maybe just not the target they want to attack. Plus as has been mentioned, they benefit much more strongly from party co-operation (or the DM using the flanking rule, which I discourage). Also, throwing in a weapon cantrip can boost rogue damage pretty significantly.

[Grog Logs]

Or the Rogue could have a better weapon than a hand crossbow
True. The hand crossbow was a leftover from me comparing the Rogue to the Gunsmith Artificer, as a PC wanted to play one. As the vast majority of damage comes from SA rather than the weapon, upgrading the hand crossbow to another non-magical weapon is fairly negligible.


A Rogue will generally hit like a brick once, then retreat until they can do it again. So yes, there is a good mechanical reason.
Ok.


No, we couldn't. 5e sneak attack works even against enemies without weak spots
Strongly disagree. Everything has weak spots. In Daredevil # 360 (Jan 1997), Daredevil is fighting the Absorbing Man, who has turned his entire body into diamonds. Daredevil proceeds to use his radar sense to find the flaw in the diamond. (https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/1/15047/916283-ddvsabsorbingman14bt.jpg) Then, Daredevil uses the handle of the gun to chip away at the weak spots in diamond (https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/1/15047/916284-ddvsabsorbingman34ol.jpg) until the Absorbing Man's arms fall off!


You haven't demonstrated that the Rogue was falling way behind the damage curve, even with the data you provided.
I wasn't trying to say that the Rogue was behind the damage curve. I was trying to say that he is exactly on the damage curve. Therefore, why should he be penalized on the turns that he is unable to trigger SA. The whole thing is moot, though, if he (almost) always triggers SA, especially given the other benefits you and others mentioned.

[Lombra]

Jaappleton ended the discussion with the first reply: the game isn't only about damage.

[Unoriginal]

Strongly disagree. Everything has weak spots. In Daredevil # 360 (Jan 1997), Daredevil is fighting the Absorbing Man, who has turned his entire body into diamonds. Daredevil proceeds to use his radar sense to find the flaw in the diamond. (https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/1/15047/916283-ddvsabsorbingman14bt.jpg) Then, Daredevil uses the handle of the gun to chip away at the weak spots in diamond (https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/1/15047/916284-ddvsabsorbingman34ol.jpg) until the Absorbing Man's arms fall off!

Yes, diamond has weak spots. But what is the weak spot of a Gelatinous Cube, according to you?




I wasn't trying to say that the Rogue was behind the damage curve. I was trying to say that he is exactly on the damage curve. Therefore, why should he be penalized on the turns that he is unable to trigger SA. The whole thing is moot, though, if he (almost) always triggers SA, especially given the other benefits you and others mentioned.

He's on the damage curve thanks to SA. Not being able to do it all the time is just a normal drawback, the same way a Fighter has limited Action Surges.

[Grog Logs]

Jaappleton ended the discussion with the first reply: the game isn't only about damage. I agree that the game is about more about damage. I was simply examining the damage curve to make sure that all classes could feel competent in combat. No one too weak. No one too strong. A Bard's Vicious Mockery is about much more than damage; there is a debuffing effect that makes up for the low damage. If damage was such a low concern during the design making, then Cantrips from full casters would not scale with level (e.g., Wizard's Fire Bolt) .


Yes, diamond has weak spots. But what is the weak spot of a Gelatinous Cube, according to you?A Gelatinous Cube's weakness could be damaging the floor beneath it to create a drain or separating part of its mass from the main thing. Sadly, I was unable to find any good images of Spider-Man defeating Hydro-Man or Sandman, but I know that he has done so many times.


YHe's on the damage curve thanks to SA. Not being able to do it all the time is just a normal drawback, the same way a Fighter has limited Action Surges.I suppose that I see things differently. I wouldn't compare SA to a Fighter's Action Surges. I would compare SA to a Fighter's Extra Attack (and its upgrades at 11 and 20). A Fighter is still effective in combat without Action Surge. A fighter is very weak in combat without Extra Attack; but a Fighter does not need Advantage or a nearby ally to activate Extra Attack.

[Talamare]

Gunsmith Lv5
70% 4d6+Dex(4)

12.6 damage


Rogue Lv5 with Crossbow Expert or Dual Wielding with d6 weapons
1 - .3 * .3 = 91% * 3d6
70% * 1d6+Dex(4)
70% * 1d6 or 1d6+Dex(4)

11.41 + 5.25 + (2.45 or 5.25)
19.11 or 21.91 damage

What are we complaining about?


Edit
Warlock
70% * 1d10+Cha(4)

6.65 * 2
13.3 damage

[MeeposFire]

In general rogues can get sneak attack every turn they make an attack. Every once in a while it does not happen but mostly it does. In that regard sneak attack has restrictions mostly for flavor and fun reasons. Part of the fun playing a rogue in combat for many people is doing all the craziness to ensure they get sneak attack and part of the historical significance to the class is having a large attack brought about by attacking an enemy in a manner similar to sneak attack.

Certainly they built the class around this type of attack.

[Mikal]

One thing not being considered is that rogues can also sneak attack on OAs while warlocks can't OA with Eldritch blast (potentially they can with war caster if against a single target but that's a dm call) and artificer can't either I believe without completely screwing up their action economy due to reloads.

[Dudewithknives]

Some other things to consider.

1. Bracers of archery are cheap and add a flat +2 damage to an archer with a bow. Could help the rogue, can't help the warlock or artificer.

2. Magic bows/crossbows exist, magic thundercannons don't. A +1 weapon is +5% bonus to hit the artificer can't get and an extra damage as well. Goes up qith the use of +2 and +3 weapons if you ever get one. A warlock can get the bonus to hit but not the damage.

3. A rogue is just as good in melee as at range, a bow and rapier are both just dex to hit and damage. A thundercannon would need a feat if used in melee range, even then with the same feat a person with a hand crossbow gets 2 shots, an artificer gets one.

4. If you get more attacks, which will only be 2 anyway, that is 2 chances to hit for your big damage as a rogue.

5. A thundercannon is extremely loud, stealth and subtlety is out the window.

6. A thundercannon takes a bonus action to reload, no exceptions. You might need your bonus action for something else.

7. Due to the stupid ways that archery works magic arrows stack with magic bows so you can carry a fee for those times you really need that little bit extra.

8. While I do not agree with it, I have seen dms rule that a thundercannon does not add a stat to their damage because it does not list it and it is a "special weapon"

9. The thundercannon does have some ok but kind of low damage aoe attack for free later, whereas the rogue never really gets much love in the aoe department.

10. While a rogue does have to meet some requirements to use sneak attack, those requirements are very easy to get due to their other talents. Also the rogue has much better chances to get advantage with their attacks.


To address something above.

11. You can't use a ranged weapon for an AOO so the artificer can't use their thundercannon anyway. A rogue could easily fire a bow on their turn and then pull a dagger at the end of their turn.

12. With warcaster you can use a spell like booming blade or shocking grasp but not eldritch blast past level 5. JC has clarified the spell must ONLY be able to target 1 person, not that you just choose to target only one.

[djreynolds]

The classes were never intended by the designers to be equal

And its clear they are not

And the rogue's sneak attack should still work vs beholders

And the sneak attack doesn't care about brooch of shielding

[Talamare]

The classes were never intended by the designers to be equal

And its clear they are not

And the rogue's sneak attack should still work vs beholders

And the sneak attack doesn't care about brooch of shielding

You're right, Rogue Sneak Attack is significantly ahead of the other 2 options

[JNAProductions]

The classes were never intended by the designers to be equal

And its clear they are not

And the rogue's sneak attack should still work vs beholders

And the sneak attack doesn't care about brooch of shielding

Except they were. Not 100%, but by and large, the classes are meant to be equal.

[Grog Logs]

9. The thundercannon does have some ok but kind of low damage aoe attack for free later, whereas the rogue never really gets much love in the aoe department.I was originally concerned about the Gunsmith obtaining access to unlimited AOE and other multi-target shots, but doing the math reveals that:

Blast Wave: ~1/4-1/3 of the damage of Thunder Monger.
Piercing Round: ~1/3-1/2 of the damage of Thunder Monger.
Explosive Round: ~2/5-1/2 of the damage of Thunder Monger.

The tilde signifies about. The ranges are because there are differences at different levels. At Level 20, my simplified average damage amounts are as follows:

Thunder Monger: 43.5 damage to one target
Blast Wave: 14 damage to each target
Piercing Round: 21 damage to each target
Explosive Round: 18 damage to each target

Unless you are fighting a large amount of 1/8 CR enemies at level 20(!) (or you've whittled down most enemies to the point of near death), the special attacks do not seem worth it.