Pathfinder: sunder

[Scottlang]

Can you combine vital strike and the sunder attack action... I think you can, but I just wanted to check... If not, then I can swap it out for something more interesting... Like Giants Crush... Reflex save or be knocked prone...

[Psyren]

Yes, a Sunder attempt can replace any melee attack (rather than needing an "attack action" which is a type of standard action.) Just as you can turn every swing in a full attack into a Sunder attempt, you can replace your Vital Strike swing with one.

[Caelestion]

I suppose so, but why would you want to Vital Strike an object?

[Psyren]

I suppose so, but why would you want to Vital Strike an object?

It makes sense when you think about it. Since it's a single strike, the object's Hardness only applies once, whereas if you full-attack that object hardness applies to each swing. Also, you get more damage without the attack penalty that comes with iteratives, giving you a higher attack bonus that you can trade into Power Attack.

This still doesn't make Vital Strike a good feat by any means, but I think a small tweak to Vital Strike can get it to usable status (i.e. combining the entire chain into a single scaling feat.)

[Scottlang]

I suppose so, but why would you want to Vital Strike an object?

Well, if what you are trying to hit has an AC higher than what you can hit, would it not be prude then to take away its protection?? Like a giant vs a group, and there are dwarves in the party with AC 23, (27 vs giants) even with a +16/+11 to hit... Meaning that I, as a poor roller have to roll an 11 on the first roll and a 16 on the 2nd, and not so high against the human... This is why I'm asking... Cos the Marsh Giant would then try to crack open the hard exterior to get to the warm gooie center...

[Crake]

Well, if what you are trying to hit has an AC higher than what you can hit, would it not be prude then to take away its protection?? Like a giant vs a group, and there are dwarves in the party with AC 23, (27 vs giants) even with a +16/+11 to hit... Meaning that I, as a poor roller have to roll an 11 on the first roll and a 16 on the 2nd, and not so high against the human... This is why I'm asking... Cos the Marsh Giant would then try to crack open the hard exterior to get to the warm gooie center...

If you're referring to sundering their armor, I don't believe you can do that. You could, at best, sunder their shields, but I would suggest simply sundering their weapons, then they simply cannot attack you at all.

[Caelestion]

It has to be a weapon, shield or other held item to be sundered and dwarves will still get their dodge bonus against a giant's sunder attempt.

[Scottlang]

If you're referring to sundering their armor, I don't believe you can do that. You could, at best, sunder their shields, but I would suggest simply sundering their weapons, then they simply cannot attack you at all.

Sunder: You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack.

Also the PC's have the major artifact, Agrimmosh, which can't be sundered...

[Yanisa]

Interestingly, between 3.5 and pathfinder the line about not being able to sunder armor is removed. In other words: in Pathfinder you can sunder armor. It even has a nifty table (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/additionalRules.html#table-7-12-common-armor-weapon-and-shield-hardness-and-hit-points).

Still, sundering it doesn't seem as effective as just hitting. First you need to win a CMB/CMD which the Dwarves still get their +4 dodge on. Then you need to overcome most likely hardness 10 (steel) and deal between 35 and 45 HP damage, assuming heavy armor.

[Scottlang]

It has to be a weapon, shield or other held item to be sundered and dwarves will still get their dodge bonus against a giant's sunder attempt.

Yes I am aware of that, but it would be easier to hit with a sunder as the CMD is lower than the AC, therefore making the AC lower, so I can hit... Cos even though the 2nd attack is a +11, it would be replaced with the improved sunder of a marsh giant... Which is a +20... So a better chance to hit... And may mean easier to hit the next round....

[Scottlang]

Interestingly, between 3.5 and pathfinder the line about not being able to sunder armor is removed. In other words: in Pathfinder you can sunder armor. It even has a nifty table (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/additionalRules.html#table-7-12-common-armor-weapon-and-shield-hardness-and-hit-points).

Still, sundering it doesn't seem as effective as just hitting. First you need to win a CMB/CMD which the Dwarves still get their +4 dodge on. Then you need to overcome most likely hardness 10 (steel) and deal between 35 and 45 HP damage, assuming heavy armor.

Well, a level 4 dwarven fighter has a CMD 21 vs giants 25...
Marsh giant has a CMB of +18 with improved sunder a +20.... So I need to roll a 5 or higher... And this is with out using power attack... Magical steel shield... Hardness 12 hp 30... Marsh giant deals 2d6+12 damage... So in two rounds shield gets the broken conditions... Next round, destroyed, 3rd round, dwarfs AC drops from 27 to 24...

[Caelestion]

A dwarf in plate and shield against giants is going to have a stupidly high AC. Why attack the dwarf in the first place?

[Scottlang]

It's from the giant slayer adventure path, where two dwarves with 2 mercs were looking for the dwarves ancestors tomb, in the wrong area were set upon by a covern of hags, and their body guard of a marsh giant..., the small party killed 2 of the hags, the PC' s stubble upon the surviving dwarf, who was cursed, PC's break the curse, and carry on with the new dwarf... Blah blah... Come across where hag is hiding, why wouldn't the Marsh giant attack the dwarves 1st?? They killed 2 of its masters... Giant has an int 8... So why would it not??

[Caelestion]

Because it knows that dwarves are stupidly hard to hit and that this one is encased in steel?

[Scottlang]

Because it knows that dwarves are stupidly hard to hit and that this one is encased in steel?

Read the Giantslayer adventure path book to and it may help you to understand

[Caelestion]

That would require me to own the book in question. Why are you asking me questions that apparently only you can answer?

[Scottlang]

That would require me to own the book in question. Why are you asking me questions that apparently only you can answer?

Well this all stemmed from the question to which I did not the answer... The original question, that digressed to this, was about vital strike and sunder...