Balancing one Int/Wis stat vs Cha

[Saiga]

For a WoW homebrew I'm working on, I'd like to combine Int and Wis into one stat, to oppose Cha (renamed Spirit). I'm just worried that this will lead to a serious imbalance, with Int/Wis being used for 10 skills and Spirit being used for 4.

Most Int skills are pretty niche, with Int being considered a dump stat by many non-Wizards, so I'm wondering if it's fine to just leave it as is? Charisma skills lead to a lot of interaction and influencing opportunities.

The other issue is saves... Wisdom saving thoughts are very important, so it'd definitely be more powerful than Spirit if Int got the best saves as well. However, I've two choices to balance that: make Spirit the save stat for previous Wisdom saves, or let casters use either stat for Wisdom saves so they're on equal footing. It depends on how balanced you think the two stats are before saves come into play, and if Spirit needs a buff.

Can anyone weigh in on this idea and advise if they think it's possible to balance?

[Finney]

For a WoW homebrew I'm working on, I'd like to combine Int and Wis into one stat, to oppose Cha (renamed Spirit). I'm just worried that this will lead to a serious imbalance, with Int/Wis being used for 10 skills and Spirit being used for 4.

Most Int skills are pretty niche, with Int being considered a dump stat by many non-Wizards, so I'm wondering if it's fine to just leave it as is? Charisma skills lead to a lot of interaction and influencing opportunities.

The other issue is saves... Wisdom saving thoughts are very important, so it'd definitely be more powerful than Spirit if Int got the best saves as well. However, I've two choices to balance that: make Spirit the save stat for previous Wisdom saves, or let casters use either stat for Wisdom saves so they're on equal footing. It depends on how balanced you think the two stats are before saves come into play, and if Spirit needs a buff.

Can anyone weigh in on this idea and advise if they think it's possible to balance?

I don't see a reason to modify the D&D stats, since it would be easier to adjust World of Warcraft classes to conform to 5e rules than vice versa. Do you intend on using all the classes, like Death Knight and Shaman?

The World of Warcraft classes match up pretty closely with 5e classes (with hunters being rangers and priests being clerics). If you wanted to add Shamans, I would just make it a Divine Domain that used a totem(s) for their casting focus instead of a holy symbol.

Death Knight would be trickier to simulate than shaman, but I would probably keep it simple and make them a Sacred Oath option of the paladin class (Oath of the Lich King).

[JackPhoenix]

I don't see a reason to modify the D&D stats, since it would be easier to adjust World of Warcraft classes to conform to 5e rules than vice versa. Do you intend on using all the classes, like Death Knight and Shaman?

The World of Warcraft classes match up pretty closely with 5e classes (with hunters being rangers and priests being clerics). If you wanted to add Shamans, I would just make it a Divine Domain that used a totem(s) for their casting focus instead of a holy symbol.

Death Knight would be trickier to simulate than shaman, but I would probably keep it simple and make them a Sacred Oath option of the paladin class (Oath of the Lich King).

Indeed. In addition, problem I've found with most WoW homebrews is that people focus too much on trying to translate game mechanics instead of going for the "feel". Why bother making precise conversion of a stuff from a videogame that will change in the next major patch anyway?

[Finney]

If you do decide to go with Death Knight as a paladin Sacred Oath, it could draw heavily upon the Oathbreaker from the DMG or you could just use it verbatim. You might also change their Divine Smite feature to do necrotic damage instead of radiant.

You might also change Lay on Hands to Outbreak, which would allow the Death Knight to expend 5 hit points from their pool to inflict a disease with the attack action rather than to cure one.

[Saiga]

I don't see a reason to modify the D&D stats, since it would be easier to adjust World of Warcraft classes to conform to 5e rules than vice versa. Do you intend on using all the classes, like Death Knight and Shaman?

The World of Warcraft classes match up pretty closely with 5e classes (with hunters being rangers and priests being clerics). If you wanted to add Shamans, I would just make it a Divine Domain that used a totem(s) for their casting focus instead of a holy symbol.

Death Knight would be trickier to simulate than shaman, but I would probably keep it simple and make them a Sacred Oath option of the paladin class (Oath of the Lich King).

Because that doesn't feel closely enough to Warcraft to my liking. Even though the mechanics can change with an expansion, my idea is to draw inspiration from various expansions and the elements that have been used most consistently.

Clerics are too different to Priests, with their melee abilities and armour. They can't make good Enhancement Shaman, and lack the Elemental flavour the class should have overall. A divine domain can't add all of that in.

Death Knights aren't Oathbreakers. Though the modern Deathknights mostly come from Paladins, they can also be risen from any class so restricting them to a Paladin chassis doesn't feel right.

I'd rather do the work and have something that feels more like it fits within the Warcraft universe. Besides, the brainstorming is fun.

[Talamare]

Why not merge Cha into Int? Then make Wis into Spirit

The only Int based class is Wizard, who already plays just like the other Cha based classes such as Sorcerer, Warlock, and Bard

Then as far as Skills are concerned

Straight up delete Performance
Change Nature and Religion to be Wisdom/Spirit

This would give Int 6 Skills and Wis 7 Skills

[Khrysaes]

There is a D20 3rd edition World of Warcraft rpg that has several books. It may be easier to adapt what is in there to 5e than modifying 5e. There are several 3.5-5e conversion guides

[Arkhios]

Actually, wisdom and charisma have more in common with each other than intelligence and wisdom. If I were to combine two stats into spirit, it would be wis&cha.

However, I agree that it might end up a bit too much work to rebalance unexpected connections to normal rules if you change them. It wouldn't be too big of an issue to keep D&D stats for WOW game.

Besides, out of respect to its origins, WOW should bow to D&D, not the other way around ;)

[JackPhoenix]

There is a D20 3rd edition World of Warcraft rpg that has several books. It may be easier to adapt what is in there to 5e than modifying 5e. There are several 3.5-5e conversion guides

Already done long ago: both core book (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oaqqtXQG-fT-C5_yajhLbUabdpN5XPn7hmV-MXAGz78/edit) and monster manual Manual of Monsters (https://docs.google.com/document/d/14tdxydPO6l-ogj_pKC77AQ9MNwZ_sV0OEF_xn_m980c/edit#)

[Saiga]

Why would Wis & Cha be more similar than Wis & Int? They don't seem that way to me. But if that works better, I'd be happy to do it. It just seems like Int would be the weak stat then (unless I allowed either mental stat for 'Will' saves).

I'm aware of the existing official RPG and fanmade 5E conversion, but those aren't to my liking. Besides, those versions already exist, so I want to do my own thing.

[Arkhios]

Why would Wis & Cha be more similar than Wis & Int? They don't seem that way to me. But if that works better, I'd be happy to do it. It just seems like Int would be the weak stat then (unless I allowed either mental stat for 'Will' saves).

I'm aware of the existing official RPG and fanmade 5E conversion, but those aren't to my liking. Besides, those versions already exist, so I want to do my own thing.

Essentially, Charisma measures your Force of Personality; Spiritedness, if you will. Wisdom is implied to measure one's strength of faith and spiritual aptitude (among other things). Also, when looking at saving throws, charisma saving throws are basically made to resist compulsion effects (previously that would've fallen into Will). Wisdom saving throws are more standard Will saves as a whole. Technically, Wisdom and Charisma saves are very similar in theme.

Intelligence wrestles in a whole different league. Besides, WOW does have Intellect as one attribute, doesn't it? Intelligence = Intellect quite clearly. Likewise, any mention of an ability such as Charisma shines in it's absence.

In regards to skills and attributes, Constitution isn't used for any skill. Why isn't that a problem?

[Saiga]

Essentially, Charisma measures your Force of Personality; Spiritedness, if you will. Wisdom is implied to measure one's strength of faith and spiritual aptitude (among other things).

Intelligence wrestles in a whole different league. Besides, WOW does have Intellect as one attribute, doesn't it? Intelligence = Intellect quite clearly. Likewise, any mention of an ability such as Charisma shines in it's absence.

I know Charisma has Force of Personality etc, which is why it was becoming Spirit. But Wisdom is a little funny to me, because although it's used for spiritual casters, it also represents cunning and insight (which could fit in intelligence). I know the idea comes from priests/hermits being very wise, but that seems closer to intelligence than it does to force of personality.

edit: as for Con, it's got Con saves and HP is super important. It's not the primary stat for anyone either, so it's a little different to all the other stats.

[Arkhios]

I know Charisma has Force of Personality etc, which is why it was becoming Spirit. But Wisdom is a little funny to me, because although it's used for spiritual casters, it also represents cunning and insight (which could fit in intelligence). I know the idea comes from priests/hermits being very wise, but that seems closer to intelligence than it does to force of personality.

edit: as for Con, it's got Con saves and HP is super important. It's not the primary stat for anyone either, so it's a little different to all the other stats.

When was the last time you read the description of Enhance Ability. It says right there, that the option to enhance Intelligence is Fox's Cunning (it's been like that since the beginning, for that matter) :P Clearly that implies that cunningness is more about intelligence than wisdom.

[Talamare]

Why would Wis & Cha be more similar than Wis & Int? They don't seem that way to me. But if that works better, I'd be happy to do it. It just seems like Int would be the weak stat then (unless I allowed either mental stat for 'Will' saves).

I'm aware of the existing official RPG and fanmade 5E conversion, but those aren't to my liking. Besides, those versions already exist, so I want to do my own thing.

Wisdom and Charisma can be said to be more emotional, while Intelligence is more logical.

The classes each represent don't fit very well within each other tho.

Wisdom based classes use Nature or Religion to fuel their abilities
Charisma and Intelligence based classes use Arcane to fuel their abilities

With the exception of Paladin, who used to be a Wisdom based Caster, while also having Charisma based abilities, and requiring both Strength and Constitution. So I can understand that they made it less MAD.

So, Paladin can go back to using Wisdom

[Saiga]

When was the last time you read the description of Enhance Ability. It says right there, that the option to enhance Intelligence is Fox's Cunning (it's been like that since the beginning, for that matter) :P Clearly that implies that cunningness is more about intelligence than wisdom.

That just confuses me further! I thought Wisdom was outright called Cunning or Guile in earlier editions of D&D.

If that's the case it sounds like some of the Wisdom skills would be better split between Intelligence and Cha/Spirit. But drawing the line is difficult.

[Arkhios]

That just confuses me further! I thought Wisdom was outright called Cunning or Guile in earlier editions of D&D.

Nope! Ever since AD&D, Wisdom was Wisdom, and here's how it was described back then:

Wisdom is a composite term for the character’s enlightenment, judgement, wile, will power, and (to a certain extent) intuitiveness.
And, Intelligence:

Intelligence is quite similar to what is currently known as intelligence quotient, but it also includes mnemonic ability, reasoning, and learning ability outside those measured by the written word.

[Saiga]

Hmm, what I read must have been wrong (or about something other than D&D).

Still, looking at the skills that currently sit under Wisdom - they all seem to make sense as Int skills instead of 'Spirit' skills (except maybe Animal Handling - that could have easily been Charisma).

[Arkhios]

Hmm, what I read must have been wrong (or about something other than D&D).

Still, looking at the skills that currently sit under Wisdom - they all seem to make sense as Int skills instead of 'Spirit' skills (except maybe Animal Handling - that could have easily been Charisma).

Fun fact: Handle Animal was Charisma skill in 3rd edition. I don't know what were they thinking afterwards.

[Talamare]

Can also divide the Charisma Skills around

Intimidate into Strength
Persuasion into Spirit
Deception into Intelligence

[Arkhios]

Can also divide the Charisma Skills around

Intimidate into Strength
Persuasion into Spirit
Deception into Intelligence

Indeed. Also, some skills feel rather pointless being tied to anything. For example, Perception could exist on it's own without any ability modifier. Just give proficiency to everyone, and if some race/class is exceptionally good at it, give them Expertise instead.

[MrStabby]

I think some of the balancing is down to DM playing NPCs smart.

When i build an NPC I try and have spells target the full spread of saves - a smaller set of saves associated with a stat doesn't mean they have to come up less often, just that those spells get used more often.

The same can kind of be used for skills as well. It is the frequency that kind of runs balance not breadth.

[Nifft]

Fun fact: Handle Animal was Charisma skill in 3rd edition. I don't know what were they thinking afterwards.

Probably something like: "Druids and Rangers were supposed to be good at this, but Charisma was their dump-stat."


Though in even earlier editions, you needed a high Charisma to become a Druid.

[Arkhios]

Probably something like: "Druids and Rangers were supposed to be good at this, but Charisma was their dump-stat."

Yeah, no. Doesn't cut it for me. (obviously that's the most probable reason in 5th edition, but it's just so damn lazy explanation).