Martial Archetype: Blood Knight

[zombiecurse]

This is pretty much my first homebrew. Just looking for some feedback on it. The concept is based off the Eldritch Knight, but is meant to be more offensive, with a bit of that edgelord flavour.

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/B1UEij_bf

[Lalliman]

Suggestion: Make the HP cost of Sanguine Empowerment equal to half your level, minimum 1. Equals out to about the same, without the weird spikes. Also specify that the damage can't be reduced or resisted.

Overall the class seems fine. At first I found it weird that it gets two actual features at 3rd level in addition to EK spellcasting, while the EK only gets a ribbon (Weapon Bond). But Dark Metamorphosis is a trade-off rather than a bonus, and Sanguine Empowerment is offset by needing to actually raise your Charisma. (Whereas not raising your Intelligence is the optimal way to play an EK, in my experience.)

The only thing I question is Life Stealer, since it provides effectively infinite healing. It quickly nullifies the HP cost of using Sanguine Empowerment, and with the duration and amount of uses that SE has, you're almost guaranteed to have it up for every battle you engage in, barring the occasional unexpected ambush. A way to make this less exploitable might be to grant temporary hit points instead. The in-combat benefit will be mostly the same, but you won't have any blood knights running around killing rats to regain their HP.

Edit: Wait a second, you're missing a 10th level feature. What's up with that?

[zombiecurse]

Suggestion: Make the HP cost of Sanguine Empowerment equal to half your level, minimum 1. Equals out to about the same, without the weird spikes. Also specify that the damage can't be reduced or resisted.

Overall the class seems fine. At first I found it weird that it gets two actual features at 3rd level in addition to EK spellcasting, while the EK only gets a ribbon (Weapon Bond). But Dark Metamorphosis is a trade-off rather than a bonus, and Sanguine Empowerment is offset by needing to actually raise your Charisma. (Whereas not raising your Intelligence is the optimal way to play an EK, in my experience.)

The only thing I question is Life Stealer, since it provides effectively infinite healing. It quickly nullifies the HP cost of using Sanguine Empowerment, and with the duration and amount of uses that SE has, you're almost guaranteed to have it up for every battle you engage in, barring the occasional unexpected ambush. A way to make this less exploitable might be to grant temporary hit points instead. The in-combat benefit will be mostly the same, but you won't have any blood knights running around killing rats to regain their HP.

Edit: Wait a second, you're missing a 10th level feature. What's up with that?

This all seems like good feedback.

Not sure how I missed the 10th level feature. I could potentially push Sanguine Empowerment forward to 7 and Life Stealer to 10...... but that feels like a long time to wait to get some pretty important class features.

[JNAProductions]

Why Enchantment? Necromancy makes sense, but Enchantment seems odd. I'd honestly have no real issue with allowing unrestricted access-I think it's a little dumb that AT and EK are so restricted.

Dark Metamorphosis I don't like. It's either something you can use too often, in which case it's too good, or the DM constantly makes it unavailable, in which case it sucks HARD. I'd recommend instead something like this:


Once per short rest, you may gain advantage on all attacks taken in a turn so long as you are in dim light or darkness.

The 120' Darkvision is fine, though.

Sanguine Empowerment is far too good. Paladins of Devotion get a similar ability, and while their ability does not deal damage, it takes an action and, critically, lasts one minute. This is something you can maintain pretty much all day, once you get a decent Charisma score (which is easy to do as a Fighter) and does honestly pretty paltry damage. You're breaking bounded accuracy HARD here.

Life Stealer fails the bag of rats test. Hard. And, even not abused, it's too strong.

Children of the Night feels fine to me.

Blood of the Undying also feels fine.

[Composer99]

Overall: I like the theme of this class. Although its powers are obviously different, along with its base chassis, it reminds me of the World of Warcraft death knight blood spec.

A warrior who gains partially vampiric powers is neat niche, and I'm glad you've explored it.

Anyway, on to some specifics:



Starting at 3rd level, you gain darkvision with a range of 120 feet. Additionally, you gain +1 to your attack rolls, spell attack modifier, and spell save DC in dim light and darkness, and lose -2 to the same in bright light.

I know there's a trade-off, but this strikes me as a bit too easy to game the advantage, or to fall prey to the flaw. If you play in a campaign such as, say Tomb of Annihilation, with a great deal of overland exploration, you're mostly getting penalised until the final dungeon. If you're playing that Underdark demon campaign (which I don't own yet but plan to), you're golden. At least, so I'm guessing.

The Eldritch Knight's primary 3rd-level feature is spellcasting; its other 3rd-level feature is flavour. This archetype's primary 3rd-level feature is also spellcasting. You could probably ditch the +1/-2 modifiers and keep the darkvision and it would be fine, even if it's still strictly better than Weapon Bond.



At 3rd level you gain the ability to use your own blood to empower your weapons. You perform a one-minute ritual that involves opening a wound and dripping your own blood on your weapon.
Opening the wound causes 1d6 damage. For one hour after you complete the ritual, attacks made with the weapon you used in the ritual gain bonus damage equal to your Charisma modifier. During this time, any non-magical weapon used in the ritual count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage. The cost of performing this ritual increases to 2d6 damage at 10th level and 3d6 damage at 17th level. You can empower one weapon for every damage roll.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier. When you finish a long rest, you regain all expended uses.

I'm not really sure why the damage scales, since there's no benefit gained by scaling it. But if it does scale, I'd echo Lalliman's suggestion that it scale half your level so it's a smooth progression. Also, since it currently has no 'damage type', it should be necrotic, since other 'harm' yourself options usually (universally?) are. (I actually homebrewed a 'bleed' damage type in my combat manoeuvres 'brew here on the forums which would technically work better, but if this is your only 'bleed' effect, you needn't go that far.)

Anyway, this is a nice feature that, along with your spellcasting, incentivises raising your Charisma (which means delicious trade-off decision points - do you bump your fighting ability scores, or your casting one?)

That said, echoing JNAProductions, an hour is too long. Most other features whose magnitude and/or usage limit keys off an ability score are much shorter-lasting. Heck, Bardic Inspiration lasts for 10 minutes or until you spend the Inspiration die, and all you're getting is a die roll that you can add to another die roll.



At 7th level, you unlock more of the inherent power in your vampiric blood to further enhance your attacks. You can heal for half the damage dealt on a single attack of your choice each turn that Sanguine Empowerment is active. You can decide to use this feature after you roll for damage on the attack.

I'll echo the concerns here regarding the unlimited healing. You don't even need the 'bag of rats' thought experiment to see that it can get out of hand. You hardly need to cap out your Charisma. 2 to 3 hours per day, every day, of this benefit for most of your adventuring life is a hella lot of potential healing. It's absolutely worth the self-inflicted damage you took earlier.

Temporary hit points is better than healing, but you're still going to end up with having a buffer of temporary hit points every single round most rounds.

I really like the concept behind this feature. I do think, however, that you need some kind of additional restriction, or resource expenditure, to keep it from getting out of hand. (Alternately, having the shorter time limit for Sanguine Empowerment would do the trick, too.)


It's terribly mysterious.

This might be a spot to place something like the bonus to die rolls in dim light/darkness and penalty to same in bright light.


At 15th level, you gain an affinity with creatures traditionally associated with vampires. You permanently become able to speak to wolves, bats and rats as if you were under the effect of the speak with animals spell. You cannot use this ability to speak with any other type of animal or creature.
You also gain the ability to call these creatures to your aid. You learn the conjure animals spell. The spell can only be used to conjure wolves, bats or rats. You can summon swarms of rats or bats if you choose to, using the guidelines of the conjure animals spell. This spell does not count against your number of spells known.
You don't use a spell slot the first time you cast this spell in dim light or darkness. You must take a long rest before you can cast the spell in this way again.

Nothing bad to say about this feature. It's a flavourful, thematically fitting, and decently powered utility feature. Well done!


Beginning at 18th level, you have fully realized the potential within your unholy blood. You no longer need to breathe and you don't require food, water or sleep. To gain the benefits of a long rest, you only need to spend four hours doing light activity, such as reading or or keeping watch. You age at only a quarter the rate you normally did, and gain advantage on death saving throws if you are in dim light or darkness.
If you become stable by succeeding on three death saving throws and you are in dim light or darkness, you heal for an amount of hitpoints equal to your Constitution modifier and regain consciousness. This cannot happen again until you finish a long rest.

Another great feature.

[zombiecurse]

Why Enchantment? Necromancy makes sense, but Enchantment seems odd. I'd honestly have no real issue with allowing unrestricted access-I think it's a little dumb that AT and EK are so restricted.

Dark Metamorphosis I don't like. It's either something you can use too often, in which case it's too good, or the DM constantly makes it unavailable, in which case it sucks HARD. I'd recommend instead something like this:



The 120' Darkvision is fine, though.

Sanguine Empowerment is far too good. Paladins of Devotion get a similar ability, and while their ability does not deal damage, it takes an action and, critically, lasts one minute. This is something you can maintain pretty much all day, once you get a decent Charisma score (which is easy to do as a Fighter) and does honestly pretty paltry damage. You're breaking bounded accuracy HARD here.

Life Stealer fails the bag of rats test. Hard. And, even not abused, it's too strong.

Children of the Night feels fine to me.

Blood of the Undying also feels fine.

Thanks for the feedback. Specifically wondering about one thing you said here:

"This is something you can maintain pretty much all day, once you get a decent Charisma score (which is easy to do as a Fighter) and does honestly pretty paltry damage. You're breaking bounded accuracy HARD here."

So are you saying Sanguine Empowerment lasts too long, but also that it's underpowered? On closer inspection, I definitely agree that it should only last a minute. However, I think the damage it provides is pretty solid, assuming that at around lvl 11 the fighter's Charisma and Strength are likely both going to be 16 or higher. When coupled with Life Stealer (which I'm going to change over to temporary HP, for sure), it makes for a pretty solid buff.

[JNAProductions]

Thanks for the feedback. Specifically wondering about one thing you said here:

"This is something you can maintain pretty much all day, once you get a decent Charisma score (which is easy to do as a Fighter) and does honestly pretty paltry damage. You're breaking bounded accuracy HARD here."

So are you saying Sanguine Empowerment lasts too long, but also that it's underpowered? On closer inspection, I definitely agree that it should only last a minute. However, I think the damage it provides is pretty solid, assuming that at around lvl 11 the fighter's Charisma and Strength are likely both going to be 16 or higher. When coupled with Life Stealer (which I'm going to change over to temporary HP, for sure), it makes for a pretty solid buff.

I meant that it does paltry damage to the person PLAYING. 1d6 HP is not anything to be bothered over.

Your DPR increase is MASSIVE, it's the damage you take in return that's paltry.

[zombiecurse]

I meant that it does paltry damage to the person PLAYING. 1d6 HP is not anything to be bothered over.

Your DPR increase is MASSIVE, it's the damage you take in return that's paltry.

Gotcha. Do you feel that changing it to 1 minute would balance it out, or should it just be like, once per long rest, and then maybe you get to do it twice per long rest at a higher lvl?

[JNAProductions]

Gotcha. Do you feel that changing it to 1 minute would balance it out, or should it just be like, once per long rest, and then maybe you get to do it twice per long rest at a higher lvl?

Pattern it after the Paladin's Sacred Weapon. And move it to level 7-casting is enough of a third level feature.

[zombiecurse]

Pattern it after the Paladin's Sacred Weapon. And move it to level 7-casting is enough of a third level feature.

Just a flat recharge on a short or long rest then?

[zombiecurse]

Thanks for the feedback everyone, much appreciated. I think I've reigned this in a bit:

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/HkbBRlX9Zz

[JNAProductions]

Still don't get why Enchantment, but eh, you do you.

Sanguine Empowerment could actually stand a slight buff. Damage rolls don't matter as much as Attack Rolls, so now it's a substantially weaker Channel Divinity from Oath of Devotion. I'd let it add Charisma mod to attack rolls, and 1d6 necrotic damage on every damage roll, in exchange for the 1d6 damage. Alternatively, perhaps allow you to spend hit dice offensively-each time you land a swing, you can spend a hit die to do that in necrotic damage to your target.

Life Stealer is fine as THP.

And the last two are pretty much unchanged, and were good before.

ZC, good job taking feedback! I think this is shaping up to be a cool little subclass.

[zombiecurse]

Still don't get why Enchantment, but eh, you do you.

Sanguine Empowerment could actually stand a slight buff. Damage rolls don't matter as much as Attack Rolls, so now it's a substantially weaker Channel Divinity from Oath of Devotion. I'd let it add Charisma mod to attack rolls, and 1d6 necrotic damage on every damage roll, in exchange for the 1d6 damage. Alternatively, perhaps allow you to spend hit dice offensively-each time you land a swing, you can spend a hit die to do that in necrotic damage to your target.

Life Stealer is fine as THP.

And the last two are pretty much unchanged, and were good before.

ZC, good job taking feedback! I think this is shaping up to be a cool little subclass.

I like where you're going with adding the 1d6 to damage rolls. I'm concerned that adding Charisma to attack rolls is going to make him deadly accurate for the one minute Sanguine Empowerment is active. If he gets up to +5 Charisma, he's never going to miss.

Edit: As far as the Enchantment stuff goes, I like the RP aspect of being a vampiric Fighter who can do some of the traditional vampire mesmerism and mind control type stuff. The Wizard spell list for Enchantment spells from lvl 1 - 4 is full of stuff that plays into that class fantasy. Charm Person, Hold Person, Suggestion, Cause Fear, Enemies Abound. Tons of good stuff that would let a player RP as a supernaturally persuasive character and fill the face role if they have to.

[JNAProductions]

I like where you're going with adding the 1d6 to damage rolls. I'm concerned that adding Charisma to attack rolls is going to make him deadly accurate for the one minute Sanguine Empowerment is active. If he gets up to +5 Charisma, he's never going to miss.

That's what Paladin's Sacred Weapon does. And yeah, it makes you dinger-dang accurate, but it costs an action and some HP. The HP, not a big deal, but the action? That's an entire turn you're sitting on your ass, doing nothing. For a lot of encounters, that right there is one-third or one-fourth the fight.

[zombiecurse]

That's what Paladin's Sacred Weapon does. And yeah, it makes you dinger-dang accurate, but it costs an action and some HP. The HP, not a big deal, but the action? That's an entire turn you're sitting on your ass, doing nothing. For a lot of encounters, that right there is one-third or one-fourth the fight.

I like the spending hit dice idea, but I don't want it to get too crazy with the stuff people are going to have to keep track of..... What if I made the wound do 1d4 damage (cause it's basically just flavour anyways) and allowed them to roll an extra 1d4 on each successful attack? I feel like that's a cool way to add damage without it going overboard.

[JNAProductions]

I like the spending hit dice idea, but I don't want it to get too crazy with the stuff people are going to have to keep track of..... What if I made the wound do 1d4 damage (cause it's basically just flavour anyways) and allowed them to roll an extra 1d4 on each successful attack? I feel like that's a cool way to add damage without it going overboard.

Yeah, that'd be reasonable.

[Composer99]

I think it's come up already upthread, but don't forget, you should make it so that the self-inflicted damage of Sanguine Empowerment can't be affected by resistance or immunity.

[zombiecurse]

I think it's come up already upthread, but don't forget, you should make it so that the self-inflicted damage of Sanguine Empowerment can't be affected by resistance or immunity.

Good catch, just added it.

So now, the only thing I worry about is the synergy Sanguine Empowerment has with Action Surge. I suppose that there are similar benefits you could take advantage with Action Surge, like the Devotion Paladin's Sacred Weapon, if you multiclassed. I see how it could potentially get out of hand if a Blood Knight gets to lvl 17 though and he gets two Action Surges per short rest. That's going to be a ton of super accurate hits. Multiclassed 17 Fighter/3 Paladin could do the same thing I guess.

Edit - I think these might work better, given the way Action Surge operates:

Unholy Celerity

At 7th level, you gain the ability to attack with supernatural speed and might during your Action Surge. Add your Charisma modifier (minimum bonus of +1) to attack rolls made with the additional action you gain from Action Surge. You deal an extra 1d6 necrotic damage to any target you hit with these empowered attacks.

Life stealer

At 10th level, you gain the ability to siphon the life force from your foes as they fall before you. When you reduce a hostile creature to 0 hit points, you gain Temporary Hit Points equal to half the damage of the killing blow. You don't gain Temporary Hit Points from a creature knocked out with non-lethal damage.

[Sariel Vailo]

if i used this would i only have enhancement spells. or especially with xgte spells take some necromancy.

[zombiecurse]

if i used this would i only have enhancement spells. or especially with xgte spells take some necromancy.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. If you take this, you can learn enchantment and necromancy spells from the Wizard spell list. Spells from xgte would definitely be available (assuming your DM is fine with it). You can also learn any spell from the Wizard spell list at 3rd level, 8th lvl, 14th lvl and 20th lvl, as long as you have access to a spell slot of high enough level.

[Composer99]

Good catch, just added it.

So now, the only thing I worry about is the synergy Sanguine Empowerment has with Action Surge. I suppose that there are similar benefits you could take advantage with Action Surge, like the Devotion Paladin's Sacred Weapon, if you multiclassed. I see how it could potentially get out of hand if a Blood Knight gets to lvl 17 though and he gets two Action Surges per short rest. That's going to be a ton of super accurate hits. Multiclassed 17 Fighter/3 Paladin could do the same thing I guess.

Edit - I think these might work better, given the way Action Surge operates:

Unholy Celerity

At 7th level, you gain the ability to attack with supernatural speed and might during your Action Surge. Add your Charisma modifier (minimum bonus of +1) to attack rolls made with the additional action you gain from Action Surge. You deal an extra 1d6 necrotic damage to any target you hit with these empowered attacks.

Life stealer

At 10th level, you gain the ability to siphon the life force from your foes as they fall before you. When you reduce a hostile creature to 0 hit points, you gain Temporary Hit Points equal to half the damage of the killing blow. You don't gain Temporary Hit Points from a creature knocked out with non-lethal damage.

Unholy Celerity doesn't have the same "blood" thematics that Sanguine Empowerment did. But vampires are supernaturally fast in many vampire stories (the Anne Rice oeuvre springs to mind, here), so I can see it working as a 'vampire'-style feature.

I've spoilered the number crunching. The bottom line, unless I got the critical hit maths wrong, is that a 17th-level blood knight using unholy celerity:

does more damage than a 17th-level champion (approx. 110-115% with Charisma bonuses of +2 to +3);
is within striking distance of a 17th-level battlemaster who has superiority dice to burn (approx. 90-95%); and
does quite a bit more than a 17th-level battlemaster who's out of superiority dice (approx. 115-120%).


That seems fine to me. A blood knight who invests in Strength and Charisma both is going to shine here, one who doesn't won't, and that seems reasonable.

Before adding subclasses, a 17th-level fighter with Strength 20, a greatsword (nonmagic for now), has +11 to hit and deals 2d6+5 (12 average) damage. If using GWM, that becomes +6 to hit and 2d6+15 (22 average) damage. The damage becomes 4d6 on a crit (so 19 and 29 damage respectively). But we can't forget GWF fighting style, which (if memory serves) makes the average damage 8.33 for a greatsword. So our numbers become:
(1) normal 13.33 damage and crit 21.67 damage
(2) GWM 23.33 damage and crit 31.67 damage

The average AC of all monsters in the MM rounds to 14, so our fighter hits on a roll of 3-19 normally (85% of the time) and critting on a 20 (5% of the time), or 8-19 normally/crit on 20 with GWM (60% normal/5% crit).

So, average damage per hit is:
(1) normal 13.33 damage *.85 + crit 21.67 damage *.05 = 12.414 damage
(2) GWM 23.33 damage *.60 + crit 31.67 damage *.05 = 15.582 damage

(I might have got the critical hit math wrong; hopefully someone will correct me if so.)

Let's look at Champion 17 vs. Battlemaster 17 vs. Blood Knight 17; assume they all use GWM so I'm only running numbers once.

Champion 17 crits on an 18-20
Turn w/out Action Surge: 3 attacks with 23.33*.50 + 31.67*.15 becomes 3*16.416 = 49.428 damage
Turn w/ Action Surge: 6 attacks = 6*16.416 = 98.496 damage

Battlemaster 17 crits on 20, but can deal extra d12 (6.5) damage from superiority dice
Turn w/out Action Surge: 3 attacks with 29.83*.60 + 38.17*.05 = 3*19.807 = 59.421 damage
Turn w/ Action Surge: 6 attacks = 6*19.807 = 118.842 damage

Without superiority dice, Battlemaster does 46.746 damage on normal turn and 93.492 damage on an action surge turn.

Blood Knight 17 doesn't get Unholy Celerity except on action surge turns
Let's calculate two Blood Knights, one with Cha 14-15 (+2), one with Cha 16-17 (+3)
Average necrotic damage is 3.5.

On an action surge turn, the Blood Knight is 10 or 15% more likely to hit
- So with Cha +2 average damage is (23.33+3.5)*70 + (31.67+3.5)*.05
- With Cha +3 average damage is (23.33+3.5)*.75 + (31.67+3.5)*.05

Turn w/out Action Surge: 3 attacks with 23.33*.60 + 31.67*.05 = 3*15.582 = 46.746 damage
Turn w/ Action Surge (Cha +2) 46.746 + 3*(26.83*.70 + 35.17*.05) = 46.746 + 3*20.54 = 108.366 damage
Turn w/ Action Surge (Cha +3) 46.746 + 3*(26.83*.75 + 35.17*.05) = 46.746 + 3*21.881 = 112.389 damage

So without action surge, blood knight does 94.57% of champion damage and 78.67 % of battlemaster damage, as long as BM is using superiority dice. (Without superiority dice, blood knight and battlemaster are the same.)

With action surge, blood knight with Cha +2 is now doing 110.2% of champion damage, 91.18% of battlemaster damage w/ superiority dice, and 115.9% of battlemaster damage w/out superiority dice, and a blood knight with Cha +3 is doing 114.11% of champion damage, 94.57% of battlemaster damage w/ superiority dice, and 120.21% of battlemaster damage w/out superiority dice.

As for the new Life Stealer: it's a really nice change. I like it. It stays thematic without tying in too much to the other features.

[zombiecurse]

Unholy Celerity doesn't have the same "blood" thematics that Sanguine Empowerment did. But vampires are supernaturally fast in many vampire stories (the Anne Rice oeuvre springs to mind, here), so I can see it working as a 'vampire'-style feature.

I've spoilered the number crunching. The bottom line, unless I got the critical hit maths wrong, is that a 17th-level blood knight using unholy celerity:

does more damage than a 17th-level champion (approx. 110-115% with Charisma bonuses of +2 to +3);
is within striking distance of a 17th-level battlemaster who has superiority dice to burn (approx. 90-95%); and
does quite a bit more than a 17th-level battlemaster who's out of superiority dice (approx. 115-120%).


That seems fine to me. A blood knight who invests in Strength and Charisma both is going to shine here, one who doesn't won't, and that seems reasonable.



Damn man, thanks for doing the calculations on that. I'll keep that math handy so I can do it on my own in the future.

I think the change works. The Action Surge gives him a pretty sweet nova to compete with the Champion. It looks like, from a pure damage perspective, he'll outshine the Battlemaster's damage by a not-inconsiderable amount during an Action Surge if he manages to get his Charisma up, but I think the Battlemaster's Maneuvers make up for that.

Thanks again! I think I'm going to give this one final scan and then I'll post it up in a few places.

Edit: I note that you used d12s for the Battlemaster at 17, when they're d10s. They only become d12s at lvl 18. Still though, that's only an average difference of one damage per successful attack. I think it should be fine.

[SwordMeow]

It appears to have been deleted. Or, I can't access it.

[zombiecurse]

It appears to have been deleted. Or, I can't access it.

Sorry, took it down to rework it a bit. Back up now though. You can find it here: http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/HkbBRlX9Zz