So how much AC should a caster have?

[samcifer]

So i'm curious as to how much AC a caster like a sorc or a wizard who has no armor really have and be relatively safe when attacked? As my group uses fixed stats of 16, 14, 12, 12, 10, and 10, I was thinking usually of having 14 DEX along with mage shield, which would give 15 AC. IS that enough to avoid getting hit by melee and ranged attacks (melee if they end up surrounded by agile foes during a battle, esp. at low levels). With that and the Shield spell, is that really enough to be survivable in battle is they don't get ganged up on often?

[Matticusrex]

15-16 is the general AC for back-liners. 18+ for front-liners.

[Tboy1492]

If I recall Mage armor raises to abase 13, +2 dex is 15, them shield can shoot you up to 20 since it’s a +5 (going off memory so bear with me) assuming the shield and Mage Armor stack.

Abjuration wizard (savant?) would get the whole ward thing absorbing damage as well if it did hit still.

Alternatively dragon sorcerer gets higher AC because of scales, I don’t think that stacks with Mage armor.

I’m planning on converting my 3.5 wizard and going abjuration, was going to prestige into abjuration champ but since it looks like we’re switching to 5e I look forward to that beautiful ward :-)

[Guinea_Pig]

An AC of 15 should be fine at low levels, though I suppose it is slightly on the low end of things. You'll want to raise it over time if you can, but you should be fine for the early levels. I doubt you'd get swarmed and killed with 15AC.

[Naanomi]

14 is passable if you have party members good at keeping heavy hitters away from you; but most end up with 15 or more (and possible bursts beyond that from Shield etc)

[JAL_1138]

15-16 for a back-liner who really doesn't engage in melee unless it's absolutely unavoidable is okay-ish. Shield helps considerably; it's generally better to pick that up than multiclassing, or taking a non-optimal race, or taking a feat just for armor proficiency. That's not to say there aren't other reasons to multiclass, take certain races, or take certain feats, but just for AC, Mage Armor + Shield spell will get you by.

A frontliner needs 17+, preferably 18+, and some decent HP. Con proficiency is practically a must for a caster who intends to melee, too, to maintain Concentration.

[UrielAwakened]

At level 8 I'm at 20 as a Warlock/Wizard.

[Crgaston]

At level 8 I'm at 20 as a Warlock/Wizard.
This post is useless unless you say how you got there :-)

[Godshoe]

At level 8 I'm at 20 as a Warlock/Wizard.
How did you get it?

[UrielAwakened]

+1 magical shield + Medium Half Plate + Dex mod of +2.

Not too rough to acquire by 8th level or so.

[Godshoe]

+1 magical shield + Medium Half Plate + Dex mod of +2.

Not too rough to acquire by 8th level or so.
Damn, warlocks and wizards can't wear medium armor

[samcifer]

well, my character (Divine Soul 3 / Hexblade 2 has 19 AC from +2 Dex mod, scale mail, a shield and a +1 AC amulet, so his build isn't implausible if he's a hexblade.

[JAL_1138]

Damn, warlocks and wizards can't wear medium armor

Dwarven ones can.

[Naanomi]

Lore Bards and non-hexblade Warlocks end up at 14 sometimes depending on race

[Willie the Duck]

The simple answer is: it depends on how often the back-liners get chomped on, and that will depend heavily on DM and playstyle. Dex 12-16, mage armor, and shield spells are the normal way to do it (with decidedly leaning on the 14 Dex if going point buy or array, since a Vuman can readily get Int 16, Dex&Con 14). If your DM has monsters rush through frontline OAs (which, honestly, aren't fierce enough to make it not actually a smart thing to do... usually), and the frontliners don't have stickiness tricks, then you might want to upgrade that. Mountain Dwarf gets you medium armor (which with the 14 Dex, nets you up to AC 17). One level Dip into cleric gets you up to plate mail (gold dependent), and shield (without war caster feat, this requires you to be unarmed), of course you need the 13 Wisdom for MC, and a high Strength unless you are a dwarf (hill or mountain), or willing to go slow. One level dip into fighter can do the same, but 1 more AC by selecting defensive fighting style.

[Hyde]

Dwarven ones can.

And as of XGtE, Hexblades can

I'm looking at base 18, before Shield. Breastplate+dex+shield.

[Laserlight]

My current character is a cleric 1/wizard X, played weekly for two months, and I don't think I've taken a single attack vs AC thus far. As a gnome who strives to stay 60+ feet away from the action and usually casts buffs and illusions rather than direct attacks, apparently I seem less of a threat than the brawny human barbarian or the psycho tempest cleric. Unless I throw Fireball, but then there's usually no one in shape to attack me.

[Galactkaktus]

15-16 with the shield spell is enough for most things.

[Talamare]

And as of XGtE, Hexblades can

I'm looking at base 18, before Shield. Breastplate+dex+shield.


Breastplate+dex+shield.

I know you meant shield spell

[Tanarii]

I usually see "back line" Wizards & Sorcs 10-12, Warlocks/Bards/Druids 12-13. It's very common for them to prefer Con instead of Dex, because their base AC is going to be garbage no matter what. And being able to survive that one to two hits when a bad guy gets through the line before the situation can be rectified is more important than trying to boost a lost cause.

That assumes the players *have* a line, of course. My groups are usually pretty good about such things, group make-up and terrain allowing. But if you're in AL or the way I've seen some home groups play (especially very small ones), that's not happening. It'll be a formless free-for-all. In that case, you need to spend permanent or temporary resources (ability scores, class features, spells, etc) on defense.

[Asmotherion]

With Mage Armor and an easy +2 from Dexterity, 15 is easy to obtain for any caster. That said, this is virtual, because with access to Shield you can buff this up to 20 a few rounds per day; this may seem low, but in effect it's more than you may account it for.

If you want to really invest in AC, you can take Shield of Faith (uses your Concentration Slot though), for a further 2 AC, and proficiency with a shield for 2 more, by dipping Cleric 1. This ultimatilly means a 19 AC in combat, and 24 a few rouds per day. More than someone in Full Plate.

If you have a very good Con score (and it's advisable that you do as a caster, if you want to keep concentration on spells), an other nice Dip is Barbarian. You get to add your Con score to your AC. If it's more than what you get from Mage Armor, and the total you get from adding your Dex and Con is appealing, opt for it. You can call yourself a Shaman or something.

[samcifer]

With Mage Armor and an easy +2 from Dexterity, 15 is easy to obtain for any caster. That said, this is virtual, because with access to Shield you can buff this up to 20 a few rounds per day; this may seem low, but in effect it's more than you may account it for.

If you want to really invest in AC, you can take Shield of Faith (uses your Concentration Slot though), for a further 2 AC, and proficiency with a shield for 2 more, by dipping Cleric 1. This ultimatilly means a 19 AC in combat, and 24 a few rouds per day. More than someone in Full Plate.

If you have a very good Con score (and it's advisable that you do as a caster, if you want to keep concentration on spells), an other nice Dip is Barbarian. You get to add your Con score to your AC. If it's more than what you get from Mage Armor, and the total you get from adding your Dex and Con is appealing, opt for it. You can call yourself a Shaman or something.

Casters are unlikely to have the minimum 13 STR to mc into Barbarian, tho, because Strength is a dump stat for them.

[Tanarii]

With Mage Armor and an easy +2 from Dexterity, 15 is easy to obtain for any caster. That said, this is virtual, because with access to Shield you can buff this up to 20 a few rounds per day; this may seem low, but in effect it's more than you may account it for.
Easy to say Mage Armor, but that's investing at least one spell slot and one spell known/prepared. Shield is another spell known/prepared, plus multiple spell slots.

And Dex 14 means it's you second highest starting ability score permanently invested.

It's worth the investment if you're going to need it, of course.

[Naanomi]

Not every caster has access to Mage armor and/or Shield though...

[samcifer]

Not every caster has access to Mage armor and/or Shield though...

Sorcerer and Wizard do and they have no armor proficiencies. Warlock and Bard have light armor, while Cleric and Druid have light and medium along with shields, so none of them need Mage Armor or Shield like Sorcs and Wizs do, hence those classes having them. I do feel, however, that Sorcs should bet at least one of those two spells for free and have it/them not count against their spells known because Wizs get 6 spells to start while sorcs only get two at lv. 1 and have both low defenses if you're not a dragon or stone sorc and have the lowest number of spells of all classes among full casters.

[Zanthy1]

Any AC 14+ is a solid AC for characters who won't frequently be getting attacked like that. Middle of the group should have 16+, and front liners should have 18+

[MrStabby]

It depends a bit on how your DM plays different threats.

For me as a DM I will tend to have smart enemies target those PCs with an absence of visible heavy armour and/or waving identifiable arcane focii about (requiring enemies that would actually recognise such a thing though). Usually more for ranged attacks.

Beasts will try and pick of stragglers/weaker members of the group and pull them away from the party.

In my games front liners will need pretty high AC, however even the back row will really benefit from armour quite a bit.

[samcifer]

My dm has been sending (humanoid) soldiers, sharkmen (ala Street Sharks), zombies with a contagious virus that acts like some mutating virus (kind of like the T-Virus from Resident Evil, satyrs, t-rexs and for bosses, A large crab monster, a flying worm that could turn invisible, a satyr with Mirror Image and some form of enthrallment spell, and a humpback whale. Haven't gone up against many rival casters yet, just the satyr boss so far. It's a homebrewed campaign. It's mostly been melee attacks, some poisoned and one diseased (the t-virus type disease).

[Willie the Duck]

How many have been getting past the front line?

[samcifer]

How many have been getting past the front line?

Not a lot. I've been keeping my distance whenever I can, but a few have gotten to me, maybe one every two battles or so. The satyr boss never hit me and as I wasted my only turn of the combat by casting Protection from Evil and Good on myself and had low initiative, I never got a single attack against it and our barbarian who went first got a crit that insta-killed the worm boss.

[ad_hoc]

That assumes the players *have* a line, of course. My groups are usually pretty good about such things, group make-up and terrain allowing. But if you're in AL or the way I've seen some home groups play (especially very small ones), that's not happening. It'll be a formless free-for-all. In that case, you need to spend permanent or temporary resources (ability scores, class features, spells, etc) on defense.

In my experience front lines are hard to maintain. Many creatures have high mobility and are able to get at soft characters.


Easy to say Mage Armor, but that's investing at least one spell slot and one spell known/prepared. Shield is another spell known/prepared, plus multiple spell slots.

And Dex 14 means it's you second highest starting ability score permanently invested.

It's worth the investment if you're going to need it, of course.

Yeah, I think Mage Armour is most often a waste. It might not do anything at all. Shield can be cast when needed when it will be useful.

After 5th level it gets better because 1st level slots aren't worth as much.

[Arkhios]

IMHO/IMX, AC 15 is quite enough.

[opaopajr]

Often people forget that how you engage combat is factored into this equation. Some parties play a high avoidance, disengagement, or distance game. So what's "needed," given concealment, cover, and dodge rules, is dependent on the party's preferred approach.

Since it seems you have a decently strong front line, and most of the monsters seem they would bullrush with high morale, a decent AC is a reasonable expectation with your GM campaign and playgroup's preferred tactics.

Be sure to remember your +2 partial cover from hanging in the further ranks! Oh, and distance is another form of AC.
:smallcool:

[Tanarii]

In my experience front lines are hard to maintain. Many creatures have high mobility and are able to get at soft characters.
I agree it's hard, especially for small groups. It depends heavily on how many PCs and NPCs are in the party, the tactical environment, and the player approach to combat.

It's on thing to maintain a line of combat in a dungeon or restricted wilderness adventuring site, especially if you've got 4-6 PCs and maybe some henchmen. It's another to do it in a somewhat open outdoor space with 3 PCs. It's going to be basically impossible against Mongol-analogue horsemen or a dragon in open Plains. Of course, most PC parties ar fairly screwed if they're in the wide open against highly mobile skirmishers. :smallamused:

Playing a AC 10 wizard or sorcerer is asking for trouble at low levels if you don't know where you're likely to be adventuring at first.

[jas61292]

In my personal experience, a pure caster without armor proficiency is wasting hiss resources if he invests in AC. Mage Armor is fine to have, but it is by no means necessary, and while Shield is a good spell, it is also probably the single most overrated spell in the game, and is not the be all, end all, to preventing a wizard from getting hurt. Really, the way to avoid getting hurt as a mage is not to boost AC. Rather, the best method is to avoid being targeted in the first place. Now, the ease of this varies greatly by party, but assuming a fairly standard party composition, as a mage you should be the furthest in the back and the most careful of anyone. If you end a turn within movement range of an enemy, you already messed up. Heck, even ending a turn without at least partial cover if there are ranged guys is a mistake. Poor play as a mage will always come back to bite you as your AC will never be that great unless you invest far too much into it. And, of course, the more you invest into AC, the less you are investing into other useful things, like health. It is much better, as a mage, to be able to survive the hit the few times you find yourself being attacked, than to try and turn the "definite hit" into a "very probable hit."

But no, seriously. Don't worry about AC. Worry about making AC irrelevant. Whether its 15, 14, 12, 10 or 8, you can get by if you are playing like a mage should.

[Rusvul]

My answer would be "as much as you can get without investing heavily." Once you have a few spell slots to throw around, Mage Armor is almost certainly worth it. (Shield is useful too, but only if your AC is worth something to begin with.) Casters have other ways to defend themselves too, though: Mirror Image is fantastic, as is that reaction elemental resistance spell from EE (AFB, I think it's called Elemental Absorption?)

As a full caster, multiclassing or taking a feat purely for the armor is rarely worth it unless you've got some weird gish thing going on. Spending a few spell slots to make sure you don't die, though, can be well worth it. (Bonus points if your defensive spells help the party too.)

[ShikomeKidoMi]

It's also worth considering non-AC defenses as a wizard, especially when you're high level and don't use your lower level spell slots to attack very often. Things like Mirror Image and Blur, for example.

[ad_hoc]

I agree it's hard, especially for small groups. It depends heavily on how many PCs and NPCs are in the party, the tactical environment, and the player approach to combat.

It's on thing to maintain a line of combat in a dungeon or restricted wilderness adventuring site, especially if you've got 4-6 PCs and maybe some henchmen. It's another to do it in a somewhat open outdoor space with 3 PCs. It's going to be basically impossible against Mongol-analogue horsemen or a dragon in open Plains. Of course, most PC parties ar fairly screwed if they're in the wide open against highly mobile skirmishers. :smallamused:

Playing a AC 10 wizard or sorcerer is asking for trouble at low levels if you don't know where you're likely to be adventuring at first.

I also think it depends on how varied the combats are.

I think we both have a similarish playstyle. I think you call it Combat as War.

Sometimes in a dungeon a party can maintain a choke point. Sometimes they are in an open cavern. Sometimes enemies come at them from multiple entrances, even ones they were just in because it is a cave complex rather than a linear dungeon.

I do think D&D and 5e specifically is many times easier with 6 players than with 4.

I am not sure how much more difficult things need to be as I don't play with 6, but I'm sure it's fairly high. If I had a party of 6 level 5 adventurers I would be looking at an adventure aimed at level 7 characters at minimum, probably in the 8-10 range.

[samcifer]

I also think it depends on how varied the combats are.

I think we both have a similarish playstyle. I think you call it Combat as War.

Sometimes in a dungeon a party can maintain a choke point. Sometimes they are in an open cavern. Sometimes enemies come at them from multiple entrances, even ones they were just in because it is a cave complex rather than a linear dungeon.

I do think D&D and 5e specifically is many times easier with 6 players than with 4.

I am not sure how much more difficult things need to be as I don't play with 6, but I'm sure it's fairly high. If I had a party of 6 level 5 adventurers I would be looking at an adventure aimed at level 7 characters at minimum, probably in the 8-10 range.

There hasn't been any 'choke point' battle areas, at least so far. The dm seems to prefer open areas like plains and beaches. Even the sections of woods we've fought in had few obstacles in them in the form of a few trees and bushes.

[Willie the Duck]

I do think D&D and 5e specifically is many times easier with 6 players than with 4.

I am convinced that the designers expected people to have 1-2 NPCs (most likely level-appropriate entries of 'people' from the MM). That's emulating OSR play a bit, but much like the 6-8 encounters/day thing, is taking the average of a bi-modal distribution and calling it a day (when in reality most parties will have no npcs, or 4-6).

[Willie the Duck]

There hasn't been any 'choke point' battle areas, at least so far. The dm seems to prefer open areas like plains and beaches. Even the sections of woods we've fought in had few obstacles in them in the form of a few trees and bushes.

And yet only 1x every 2 battles or so someone gets to you? Is it a playstyle thing? The enemies tend to charge the front line and stay there?

[samcifer]

And yet only 1x every 2 battles or so someone gets to you? Is it a playstyle thing? The enemies tend to charge the front line and stay there?

yeah, he tends to favor rush-in melee guys with a few ranged ones. I've taken a hit or two, but was never ganged up on like the fighter once was and killed after a gang member cooking drugs scored a crit with his frying pan and literally beat the fighter to death while the ranged artificer (they were the only two in the fight at the time) was busy picking everyone else off from range.

[Strangways]

So i'm curious as to how much AC a caster like a sorc or a wizard who has no armor really have and be relatively safe when attacked? As my group uses fixed stats of 16, 14, 12, 12, 10, and 10, I was thinking usually of having 14 DEX along with mage shield, which would give 15 AC. IS that enough to avoid getting hit by melee and ranged attacks (melee if they end up surrounded by agile foes during a battle, esp. at low levels). With that and the Shield spell, is that really enough to be survivable in battle is they don't get ganged up on often?

With a DEX of 14 - 16 (+2 or +3) and Mage Armor you'll have an AC of 15 or 16. And that's about as good as it gets absent multi-classing. You generally don't have the ASIs to spare on getting DEX to 18 or in blowing a feat on armor or shield proficiencies.

Is AC 15 enough to avoid getting hit by melee or ranged attacks? Not really. You'll avoid a large number of hits because you'll be standing in the back while the bad guys hit (or at least try to hit) the fighters, barbarians and paladins up front. You can also block the occasional ranged attack or melee bad guy who gets to you with the miracle of the Shield spell, which will raise your AC from 15 to 20 as a reaction, until your following turn.

If you get surrounded by "agile foes during a battle," then your choices are 1) get out of that situation, or 2) die. Surviving as a wizard or sorcerer means not getting into that situation in the first place, or getting out of it before that gang of bad guys can start slashing / stabbing / bashing you. How can you get out of it? First, even if you're totally out of spell slots, you can still Disengage and run without taking opportunity attacks. If you've got a second level spell slot to burn, the terrific spell Misty Step will get you out of there. If the gang of bad guys all get to you on the same turn and are all able to starting hitting you, hopefully you anticipated that risk and had already cast Mirror Image, which should enable to you absorb a hit or two without taking any damage. With Mirror Image plus Shield you should be able to survive that first round until it's your turn and you can engage in some escape tactics.

There are basically no circumstances in which you can just stand there surrounded by bad guys, round after round, and expect to survive. That's what fighters and barbarians and paladins do, but you've got the worst hit dice of any class (d6s) and relatively low AC, so that situation is lethal for you.

[Strangways]

My answer would be "as much as you can get without investing heavily." Once you have a few spell slots to throw around, Mage Armor is almost certainly worth it. (Shield is useful too, but only if your AC is worth something to begin with.) Casters have other ways to defend themselves too, though: Mirror Image is fantastic, as is that reaction elemental resistance spell from EE (AFB, I think it's called Elemental Absorption?)

As a full caster, multiclassing or taking a feat purely for the armor is rarely worth it unless you've got some weird gish thing going on. Spending a few spell slots to make sure you don't die, though, can be well worth it. (Bonus points if your defensive spells help the party too.)

You've got the name right though in the reverse order, the spell is called Absorb Elements. It is indeed a fantastic defensive spells for wizards, though wizards only, not sorcerers, until sorcerers were finally given it in Xanathar's Guide to Everything.

[Arkhios]

You've got the name right though in the reverse order, the spell is called Absorb Elements. It is indeed a fantastic defensive spells for wizards, though wizards only, not sorcerers, until sorcerers were finally given it in Xanathar's Guide to Everything.

They were :) ...although, Absorb Elements is arguably only half-as-useful for a wizard or sorcerer unless you intend to go in melee to benefit from the extra damage gained through absorbing. (Which is kinda weird if you're trying to avoid being attacked).

[Unoriginal]

In my personal experience, a pure caster without armor proficiency is wasting hiss resources if he invests in AC. Mage Armor is fine to have, but it is by no means necessary, and while Shield is a good spell, it is also probably the single most overrated spell in the game, and is not the be all, end all, to preventing a wizard from getting hurt. Really, the way to avoid getting hurt as a mage is not to boost AC. Rather, the best method is to avoid being targeted in the first place. Now, the ease of this varies greatly by party, but assuming a fairly standard party composition, as a mage you should be the furthest in the back and the most careful of anyone. If you end a turn within movement range of an enemy, you already messed up. Heck, even ending a turn without at least partial cover if there are ranged guys is a mistake. Poor play as a mage will always come back to bite you as your AC will never be that great unless you invest far too much into it. And, of course, the more you invest into AC, the less you are investing into other useful things, like health. It is much better, as a mage, to be able to survive the hit the few times you find yourself being attacked, than to try and turn the "definite hit" into a "very probable hit."

But no, seriously. Don't worry about AC. Worry about making AC irrelevant. Whether its 15, 14, 12, 10 or 8, you can get by if you are playing like a mage should.

How are you dealing with, you know, having cover against ranged attacks all the time?

Because not worrying about AC is how you die from goblin arrows.

[Tanarii]

I also think it depends on how varied the combats are.

I think we both have a similarish playstyle. I think you call it Combat as War.

Sometimes in a dungeon a party can maintain a choke point. Sometimes they are in an open cavern. Sometimes enemies come at them from multiple entrances, even ones they were just in because it is a cave complex rather than a linear dungeon.I run close to combat-as-war. Generally speaking, the players shouldn't assume they can win a fight because it is balanced for their level. Ideally, if the strategic or tactical situation is they've scouted is bad but they think they are able to handle the actual creatures involved, players lure the enemy to a better location, or otherwise change the situation. Or don't start that fight. Or run away, if it was an ambush.

This isn't always feasible, of course.


I do think D&D and 5e specifically is many times easier with 6 players than with 4.

I am not sure how much more difficult things need to be as I don't play with 6, but I'm sure it's fairly high. If I had a party of 6 level 5 adventurers I would be looking at an adventure aimed at level 7 characters at minimum, probably in the 8-10 range.The DMG assumption is 6+ players lowers the enemy creatures multiplier for difficulty of a given fight by one step, and 2 or less increases it by one step. That makes perfect sense, since IMO 3-6 is the 'baseline' of number of enemies despite the x2 multiplier.

Regardless, that guideline isn't some paragon of perfect game experience. I agree that generally speaking each character added gives additional tactical flexibility to the capacity of the total creatures in the battle to effectively maneuver. Sometimes bigger is worse though.

Good example from a one off recently finished: I took a bunch of brand new players in Caves of Chaos, which has 10ft wide passages and smallish rooms. 5 players including one moon Druid. At level 3, the moon Druid could change into Brown Bear or Dire Wolf, which are both large creatures. There were many battles when he became the sole target of all enemy humanoids, while his 2 melee allies could not effectively get involved in the fight, and the Wizard & Bard had cover penalty to attack any target past him. Conversely they had a great line, with 2 melee in front and 3 ranged (including Druid behind).

If I'd taken an open table party of 4-6 PCs and 2-3 henchmen in there, with more than 2 melee (very common), the extra melee would have needed polearms and to make a second rank.

(Keep on the Borderlands / Caves of Chaos is a fantastic example of how early dungeons often strongly encouraged lines of combat AND polearms. Also because you often had to rotate or replace PCs on front line.)


There hasn't been any 'choke point' battle areas, at least so far. The dm seems to prefer open areas like plains and beaches. Even the sections of woods we've fought in had few obstacles in them in the form of a few trees and bushes.:smalleek: I'd dump lots of resources into AC and HP and defensive spells. And start the players discussing how they're going to get away when they face an enemy with higher speed / flying speed, and longer ranged attacks, before it's too late.

Better yet, stop fighting those battles and go find something new to do in-world. :smallamused:

[samcifer]

How are you dealing with, you know, having cover against ranged attacks all the time?

Because not worrying about AC is how you die from goblin arrows.

No real cover for players, but npcs have gotten cover once from ducking down while raiding our ship while we were on the shore and attacking from range.

[Tanarii]

How are you dealing with, you know, having cover against ranged attacks all the time?

Because not worrying about AC is how you die from goblin arrows.
Being in the back line provides cover against the goblin arrows in the form of your allies. Good thing there aren't "striking cover" rules.

Of course, that goes both ways. Your allies are providing cover to your enemies. Doesn't matter much for non-cantrip attacks (since leveled spells are almost all saves), but matters for many cantrips. And matters a lot to archers of course.

[Unoriginal]

Being in the back line provides cover against the goblin arrows in the form of your allies. Good thing there aren't "striking cover" rules.

Of course, that goes both ways. Your allies are providing cover to your enemies. Doesn't matter much for non-cantrip attacks (since leveled spells are almost all saves), but matters for many cantrips. And matters a lot to archers of course.

Unless you're fighting in a pretty restrained space (where ranged attacks would be focused on the one guy they can hit anyway), enemies can just, you know, move a bit so you're now exposed to them.

Teammates aren't a great way to hide unless you're an halfling.

[Tanarii]

Unless you're fighting in a pretty restrained space (where ranged attacks would be focused on the one guy they can hit anyway), enemies can just, you know, move a bit so you're now exposed to them.

Teammates aren't a great way to hide unless you're an halfling.It takes a lot more than "a bit" to clear a line of fire. Teammates are absolutely fantastic ways to get cover for any spellcaster. (Edit: This is far more apparent when you use a battle mat than when you're running TotM. In TotM you should just assume a teammate = cover, because that's effectively the case the vast majority of the time.)

Of course, you open yourself up to AoE damage that way.

Edit: I thought about this some more, and I may be overly generous with cover. I'll need to check the DMG. The way I've been running it is you need to move to more than a 45 degree from front angle to get a clear shot. Not easy at any significant distance.

[opaopajr]

No real cover for players, but npcs have gotten cover once from ducking down while raiding our ship while we were on the shore and attacking from range.

Weird, are you all in some massive atrium or plains, with nothing and nobody in the way? Hmmm, well, at least there's always dropping prone as necessary, to gain disadvantage against attacks farther from you than 5'. That way you don't always have to tie up your actions with Dodge if you're medium or further distance away. You can stand, attack, drop prone (and move or interact with environment as needed in between,).

As for Cover, I just calculate direct opposition Line of Sight, to determine what's in the way. Sure people move about, intending to defeat temporary cover. But that just keeps the battle state interesting. Point and counter point tactics makes for a lively exchange.

Cover

Walls, trees, creatures, and other obstacles can provide cover during combat, making a target more difficult to harm. A target can benefit from cover only when an attack or other effect originates on the opposite side of the cover.

(D&D 5e Basic. Aug 2014. p. 74.)

[samcifer]

Weird, are you all in some massive atrium or plains, with nothing and nobody in the way? Hmmm, well, at least there's always dropping prone as necessary, to gain disadvantage against attacks farther from you than 5'. That way you don't always have to tie up your actions with Dodge if you're medium or further distance away. You can stand, attack, drop prone (and move or interact with environment as needed in between,).

As for Cover, I just calculate direct opposition Line of Sight, to determine what's in the way. Sure people move about, intending to defeat temporary cover. But that just keeps the battle state interesting. Point and counter point tactics makes for a lively exchange.

Cover

Walls, trees, creatures, and other obstacles can provide cover during combat, making a target more difficult to harm. A target can benefit from cover only when an attack or other effect originates on the opposite side of the cover.

(D&D 5e Basic. Aug 2014. p. 74.)

well he (dm) rules that other creatures (pcs as well as npcs) don't block line of sight for ranged attacking, so that's not an issue.

[Tanarii]

well he (dm) rules that other creatures (pcs as well as npcs) don't block line of sight for ranged attacking, so that's not an issue.
Creatures not providing cover is a house rule.

Edit: Sorry that sounds judgmental / harsh. I'm just pointing out that he's specifically made a house rule if he rules creatures don't provide cover, not just a ruling of some kind within unclear rules.

[samcifer]

Creatures not providing cover is a house rule.

Edit: Sorry that sounds judgmental / harsh. I'm just pointing out that he's specifically made a house rule if he rules creatures don't provide cover, not just a ruling of some kind within unclear rules.

I've shot through my allies before several times and the dm always allows it. He has a good amount of experience with D&D, so I guess it's just a non-issue to him.

[ad_hoc]

I've shot through my allies before several times and the dm always allows it. He has a good amount of experience with D&D, so I guess it's just a non-issue to him.

That's a huge buff to ranged attacks which are already powerful.

Honestly, it sounds like your game is pretty easy. Everyone is handily defeating each encounter as you go. Characters who don't want to be attacked can easily make that happen.

Why worry about how much AC you have?

[samcifer]

That's a huge buff to ranged attacks which are already powerful.

Honestly, it sounds like your game is pretty easy. Everyone is handily defeating each encounter as you go. Characters who don't want to be attacked can easily make that happen.

Why worry about how much AC you have?

Because I'm fairly new to the game and am still learning the basics on character building, spell selection, items, etc. I've played 1st edition one time, 2nd once, and 4e a few times, but have little practical hands-on experience in playing, hence asking so many annoying questions. :)

[opaopajr]

Huh, lack of NPC/PC creating half cover (+2 AC) is an interesting boost to ranged attacks. That's easily covering the spread from the first four level's Proficiency Bonus (also +2, but to attack,).

Soooo, why don't you not worry so much about AC, and now worry about DEX so you can spam any ol' ranged attack. Oh heeeey! Whaddya know, DEX affects both!

Here's a fun idea, hire a trained servant whose non-combat role in combat is to reload your pile of Lt. Xbows and hand them off as needed, and throw caltrops about generously. :smallcool:

If and when things get ugly then you can bust out spells. I'd use Sleep after your opponents have been softened up. It's just HP pool roll, count up from lowest (friend or foe), no save. Yeah, your servant might fall asleep sometimes, but meh. :smalltongue:

[BW022]

So i'm curious as to how much AC a caster like a sorc or a wizard who has no armor really have and be relatively safe when attacked? As my group uses fixed stats of 16, 14, 12, 12, 10, and 10, I was thinking usually of having 14 DEX along with mage shield, which would give 15 AC. IS that enough to avoid getting hit by melee and ranged attacks (melee if they end up surrounded by agile foes during a battle, esp. at low levels). With that and the Shield spell, is that really enough to be survivable in battle is they don't get ganged up on often?

It is going to depend upon the campaign, the other players and characters, how quickly you advance, etc.

If you are in a five PC party with two solid font-liners (say a fighter and a PC) and someone who can off-tank (say a rogue) and the players make a concerted effort to protect you... then there is no issue with a low-AC. Most monsters don't have ranged and (provided you are leveling fairly quickly) you gain access to spells such as spider-climb, fly, etc. to keep you out of most combats.

If you were in a smaller party with only one front-line type and facing lots of varied creatures (specifically humanoids with ranged and/or spells), and say a slower XP curse, then you'd really have to think about it. The issue isn't that you'd encounter issues often, just if an ogre suddenly attacks from behind or facing six bugbears with longbows... there aren't too many defenses.

There are some things you might be able to do...
a) Multi-class, mountain dwarf, or use feat(s) to get armor.
b) Just wear armor. Might be acceptable at low levels or after you exhaust your spells.
c) Look at a stealth-build and make sure you start combats hidden. You might gain scouting, avoid ambushes, or at least not get attacked (and possibly have a change to get away) on the first rounds of combat. Use a familiar as a scout, look at criminal or other background, invisibility, silence, etc.
d) Look at dress, disguise, or illusions. Disguise yourself as a monk or something they won't necessarily attack right away.
e) Have a get out of jail spell -- fog cloud, misty step, etc. working up to dimension door.
f) Focus on defensive spells -- abjuration is the obvious specialty with mage armor and shield giving your shield boast. However, there are other combinations like blink, mirror image, etc. Never expect your spells to be able to blast enemies before they attack the party.
g) Talk with your party members. Have plans for when you get into trouble and how to get out. Nothing can make a combat go south more than having your wizard needing to waste rounds disengaging and being chased and bashed by enemies.

[samcifer]

group consists of:

Longtooth shifter totem barbarian (focuses on wolf totem) with axes

variant human GWF fighter

human (not sure if variant) artificer with a blunderbus

firbolg moon druid who just multiclassed into totem barbarian (favors bear totem)

and my tiefling divine soul (3) / hexblade (2) mc ranged caster (mainly blaster-focused) who would like to explore some melee at some point in the future.

We all started at lv. 1 and just hit lv. 5 last session.

[samcifer]

Most battles last 2 to 3 rounds. My spell list:

Sorc:

Fire Bolt, Toll the Dead, Sacred Flame (for save throw variety), Mending (we're on a ship, so...); Cure Wounds, Magic Missile, Chromatic Orb, Spiritual Weapon, Shatter

Warl:

Minor Illusion, Eldritch Blast; Hex, Shield, Armor of Agythys

Eldritch Evocations: Agonizing Blast and Eldritch Spear (range has been an issue - ship to ship, ship to/from shore)


Racial: (Dispater Tiefling): Thaumaturgy, Disguise Self, Invisibility

Metamagic: Twin and Quicken (for nova rounds if needed, or 4 EBs in a turn to hit multiple targets)

[swamp_slug]

Metamagic: Twin and Quicken (for nova rounds if needed, or 4 EBs in a turn to hit multiple targets)

You can only apply one metamagic option to a casting of a spell (unless the second metamagic option is Empowered) so you can't twin a quickened Eldritch Blast.

You can use only one Metamagic option on a spell when you cast it, unless otherwise noted.


Eldritch Blast becomes ineligible for twinning once you hit character level 5 because you can now target multiple creatures rather than one, even if you only direct all beams at one target.

To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level. For example, magic missile and scorching ray aren’t eligible, but ray of frost and chromatic orb are.

Can't post actual links yet but here is the errata: media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/PH-Errata.pdf.

[samcifer]

You can only apply one metamagic option to a casting of a spell (unless the second metamagic option is Empowered) so you can't twin a quickened Eldritch Blast.



Eldritch Blast becomes ineligible for twinning once you hit character level 5 because you can now target multiple creatures rather than one, even if you only direct all beams at one target.


Can't post actual links yet but here is the errata: media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/PH-Errata.pdf.

I know that, but as a lv. 5 character, I get 2 EB attacks per turn, so by quickening it, I can fire 2 beams as my regular action, then quicken it and cast it again as my bonus action for 4 beams total during my turn. Twin is for Cure Wounds, Chromatic Orb, Fire Bolt, Invisibility, Toll the Dead, Sacred Flame, Hex and on my next level when I get another spell, Lesser Restoration.