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Kafana
2017-12-10, 03:40 AM
Dragons are a core pillar in D&D and I aim to introduce one as a final boss of a chapter of a campaign I'm running.

Suffice to say, I'm not sure where to begin. I understand all the attacks of a dragon well enough, but I'm not sure how a general strategy of a dragon is supposed to look like, nor how to visualize it in my descriptions.

Having fought several dragons in Dark Souls, I can easily imagine a fight in that setting, where attacks are slow but deadly and trial and error is built into the game. D&D is a different beast, but I simply can't imagine a dragon mid flight attacking an opponent in front of him with a bite, 2 claws, 2 wings (in flight - how does that even work?) and a tail in the span of 6 seconds.

As far as I can tell, dragons are treasure hoarders with UMD as a class skill, so I'd like to include items which shift the combat (i.e. summoning magic, crowd control or terrain alteration which changes the battlefield) in order to have a multi-stage fight.

Now, my idea is to draw out a list of "maneuvers" the dragon will use (i.e. jump, fly up and burn a part of the area, summon a horde of skeletons from the bones of the previous victims, etc.), so what I'm looking for is:
- Additional ideas for the maneuvers;
- Links to stories describing dragon battles you think might help me.

Eldariel
2017-12-10, 04:32 AM
First, they can indeed do all 6 natural weapon attacks as a full-round action but if they fly and lack a feat/spell that enables them to stay airborne (e.g. Hover feat or Fly spell), their poor maneuverability causes them to stall and fall 150' a round, and if they can't right themselves before hitting ground, take a lot of damage (falling damage caps at 20d6). More precise rules for aerial combat here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#movingInThreeDimensions). Thus that attack option is reserved for dragons under the effect of flight enhancing abilities or for Dragons on the ground.

As for how dragons fight, it really dependson the dragon, particularly its age. Small dragons are poorly suited for melee so they mostly use their breath weapon using their speed to remain safe while it recharges. Their feats should also focus on their breath weapons. Some larger dragons are more spellcasters with breath weapons and martial attacks as secondary options. These fight like overtly buff sorcerers with a backup plan of casting Antimagic Field and hitting things in the face. Yet others, particularly in the middle range, are mostly martial beasts with breath weapon as a plan B (good for breaking objects for instance though) and spells to buff them. They can switch between these styles pretty seamlessly.


But yeah, their feats influence how they fight a lot as does their age and type. Blue Dragons are much more formidable spellcasters than White ones for instance, and Tome Dragons put both of them to shame. Pyroclastic Dragons disintegrate people with their breath weapon.

Dragons have all the options in the world so their spells can indeed produce almost anything and they have a lot of treasure and can use almost all of it. As Sorcs they don't really need UMD.

ATHATH
2017-12-10, 04:39 AM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303204-The-Truest-of-the-True-A-Handbook-to-non-Kobold-Dragons-(WIP)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFnTRfR46Gc

Fizban
2017-12-10, 05:16 AM
So, first thing to remember is that you have to custom-build every dragon: how a dragon fights is completely dependent on its feats (and spells, maybe). So the answer to the question of "how does a dragon fight?" is "how do you want it to fight?" Making a good dragon fight depends on the party and how strong a dragon you're using. Can't figure much else out until you know that, preferably also with what sort of location you want.

There's really only one thing aside from the obvious pile of natural attacks and breath weapon that (most) true dragons share: crazy high bad maneuverability flight speeds. What this means for combat is that a dragon's land speed is basically irrelevant, since it can just fly across the ground- possibly even "turning" for free by landing, turning in place on the ground at no movement cost, then taking off and flying again. They can skim over bad terrain without a care in the world, and taking a run action for x4 movement gets them far out of range of any melee character (though not out of bow or spell range).

If you want your dragon to be airborne in combat, you should probably give it the Hover feat: this basically lets you cut the dragon's fly speed in half, and then ignore the terrible maneuverability (though you might be restricted to a straight line for each move action). Even cut in half a dragon's flight speed is faster than most land creatures and even Fly spells.

While dragons are known for having crazy full attacks, this really isn't all that true. Very high level dragons have a ton of hit dice that fuel BAB and allow power attacking without serious loss of accuracy. For most of the game, dragons have a bunch of natural attacks with surprisingly low damage and okay/good to-hit bonuses. Breath weapons are also often thought of as crazy huge, but again for most of the game they just aren't- they're tied to the dragon's size, and dragon's also aren't that large for most of the game, not even reaching Huge size until CR 12 for the White and later for others. And of course they're also known for spellcasting, but they're actually around 4-8 levels behind the party, so the only way a dragon has serious spellcasting is if it's way above the party level.

Tactically, a dragon has no business ever entering melee unless their breath weapon isn't working against someone, or their foe's ranged attacks out-DPSing them. If the dragon is being out-DPS'd, they should just leave, because they're clearly outmatched. If their breath weapon isn't working, then they should wait out the Resist Energy spells and come back later- or maybe pull out a wand of a different energy spell and just empty it on the apparently real threat. If they're being attacked in their lair, then they should have all sorts of escape routes, contingency plans, traps, minions, etc. That's where those magic items would come in, but while dragons have triple standard treasure, it's still a drop in the bucket compared to what you'd need to actually pull of crazy lair stuff. That pretty much all has to be fiat, the same as any other dungeon.

Above all, a dragon should never be used alone against anything but the most un-optimized of parties, because 4v1 action advantage will slaughter them the same as any other solo monster. If they can fly and breathe and force the party to split up and come to them, then sure. But more likely if your players are savy, they'll just floor/disable/slaughter it with a pile of spells- or even outfight it with a competent melee character and a buff or two. Then you have to choose between having the "scary" dragon run away with that fly speed, or have it die like any other dumb monster.

The Red Hand of Doom campaign has a number of dragon fights, and there are a ton of campaign journals of it on the board (here's a few (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9513834&postcount=9) from the Red Hand of Doom Handbook). It has: a dragon guarding a bridge over a canyon near a forest, with troops nearby, a dragon and bow-using rider in the middle of a lake, a dragon that sets the town on fire and must be killed (else you can't stop the fire), and a dragon that lairs near another bridge over a canyon. The latter two are generally the weakest, and it's no surprise why: nowhere to take cover, no contingencies, no backup. The first two cause plenty of grief and often result in either dead party members or a dragon that comes back for revenge at a bad time.

ATHATH
2017-12-10, 06:07 AM
The Mobile Spell-Casting feat might be useful for some dragons that have high fly speeds-you can swoop in from out of the party's attack/spell range, cast a spell, then swoop out of range again, all in the same turn.

Eldariel
2017-12-10, 07:00 AM
The Mobile Spell-Casting feat might be useful for some dragons that have high fly speeds-you can swoop in from out of the party's attack/spell range, cast a spell, then swoop out of range again, all in the same turn.

Simple Flyby Attack is usually the goto. Works on breath weapon too and has no prerequisites.

BWR
2017-12-10, 07:38 AM
I've had a surprising amount of success with Fly-by and Snatch - grab one of the party members and fly a long way off before killing the hapless character. Now that all the characters have magic items that let them get out of grapple easily, it isn't so useful unless the dragon has an AMF going.

Eldariel
2017-12-10, 10:34 AM
I've had a surprising amount of success with Fly-by and Snatch - grab one of the party members and fly a long way off before killing the hapless character. Now that all the characters have magic items that let them get out of grapple easily, it isn't so useful unless the dragon has an AMF going.

However, since Dragons certainly have the option of using AMF and they're some of the better users due to their natural fighting prowess, strength and size, I'd definitely consider this option above many others for Huge+ Dragons. They fly extremely fast naturally (there are some feats to improve it further) and they can just neutralise most defenses with AMF, Snatch and bail. Something like a White Dragon could even replicate this starting from underground and burrowing back. Then it can just drop the snatched creature 1000' feet underground and let them suffocate while the Dragon goes pick up other prey.

King of Nowhere
2017-12-10, 01:01 PM
while planning the fight, you should also make sure that every member of the party has something useful to do. while a dragon would realistically fly out of range of the melees, if your melees have no means of flight and no backup ranged weapon (or they have one, but the damage they can deal with it is awful) then you should find some way for them to contribute. Like, putting minions they have to fight to protect the casters while they neutralize the dragon.

Darth Ultron
2017-12-10, 03:40 PM
Suffice to say, I'm not sure where to begin. I understand all the attacks of a dragon well enough, but I'm not sure how a general strategy of a dragon is supposed to look like, nor how to visualize it in my descriptions.


Each dragon type is a bit different, but some things to keep in mind in general:

Dragons are big, but they are quick and agile....like both a cat and a hawk.

Dragons are a different dimension is size from humanoids. Six feet of water will get a draon's feet wet...but have humanoids swimming and a five foot wide pit the dragon can step over, while humanoids can fall in it.

Dragons are smart...even super smart. They will use strategy, tactics, tricks, traps and anything else.


And two off the top of my head:

Red Dragons enjoy destruction, lots of fiery explosions, so you can expect a battle field full of it. They go for more direct attacks too.

Black Dragons enjoy the sneak surprise attack, and lots of deep water. They like the more indrect attack or traps....until they get someone stuck.

noob
2017-12-10, 04:15 PM
Dragons are extremely convinced of their own superiority which often lead them to be less paranoid than wizards.
You might even actually be at less than 1000 kilometers away from a dragon(which means the dragon have no idea at all of what is tactics) unlike for wizards which are always in another plane(because wizards are paranoid and know tactics).
So basically dragons are like wizards(superior to you in each aspect) but they take extreme risks like being seen.(which is equivalent to suicide since being seen by an adventurer leads to instant death right before you were seen because adventurers kills so fast it breaks causality(actually true with mailman sorcerers))
So the dragon will lose because one day it will get within sight range of the adventurers and die instantly.(because that is exactly how sight range works in dnd)
Unless your dragon is smart enough to stack view range increasing items like the scope(*2 view range) and that the adventurers forgot to do that.
Yes it is discordant with the usual vision of the dragons to depict them with a scope but trust me: dragons needs it if they want to survive the existence of adventurers.
Of course if the team of adventurers is particularly dangerous it might not work: if an adventurer evolve from murderhobo to super murder hobo they can spontaneously ignite everything within 10000 kilometers dealing irresistible fire damage that permakills important npcs.(it is called locate city bomb with energy substitution:fire with the metamagic that makes fire damage impossible to resist that is then combined with some way to triggers soul theft on kill and also combined with caster level sheanigans)

ViperMagnum357
2017-12-10, 04:45 PM
A dragon is at least as intelligent as most PCs, and most adult or older individuals are solid spellcasters-this means they will generally employ similar tactics to well optimized players. That is, in addition to ambushes, scouting, masking weaknesses and playing to strengths, dragons will pick the terrain and alter to their advantage, use mooks and minions to slow down/exhaust resources/get an idea of capabilities; and try to disable as many enemies as quickly as possible, then finish them off at leisure.

Specific tactics: True Dragons will usually be straight RHD or Dragon specific classes, which means a very low # of feats and several glaring weaknesses that are most ably remedied by feats. A dragon will largely be defined by feat and spell selection, and each Dragon should have a careful build.

Dragons are among the fastest fliers, but generally have terrible maneuverability-that means investing multiple feats or a custom magic item. Dragons are natural spellcasters with an excellent list, but they have limited spells known and their caster level will usually be below their CR and less than half their HD-meaning they have to plan around effects that do not rely primarily on caster level for effectiveness.

They have an excellent natural attack routine, but again rarely have feats to spare to improve it like the Rapidstrike line. They lack pounce or improved grab, against costing feats-and they do not generally have nasty riders like poison or energy drain to make incident swatting attacks worthwhile.

All the said, I think most Gargantuan or larger Dragons should invest in the Snatch/Improved multigrab feat line-picking up and grappling characters after dispelling/suppressing FOM effects is one of the surest ways of dealing with PCs. Next is improving Flight maneuverability; then, deciding on balancing the Breath weapon against a natural attack routine, each of which should take up most the rest of feat selection. Finally, strike a balance between spell selection and custom magic items to cover weaknesses and enhance your fighting style.

Lastly, remember to play the dragon like a PC-do not be afraid to retreat, and do not pull your punches-a well played dragon should be one the hardest encounters of any campaign, and perhaps the one most likely to inspire the group to cut and run.

Wartex1
2017-12-10, 05:31 PM
If you want a really good visualization of an amazing dragon battle, this is my go-to example: https://youtu.be/zK3zT4VJcTc?t=4m21s (Granted, this dude's gameplay is a little boring but its the enemy that's the part you want to pay attention to).

Everything about this fight is pretty amazing, though the final portion in the arena could be condensed. This dragon feels powerful by destroying the environment around it, taking full advantage of its flight ability and sheer size, though that size does lessen its capabilities in some areas, such as when the dragon gets caught by the pillars at the end of the hallway.

Kafana
2017-12-12, 03:28 AM
The dragon I had in mind would be a red dragon, of roughly CR 10 (juvenile or young adult). The idea is that a wizard trapped the dragon in his lair, and the dragon now lives in a form of a cage, which is essentially a giant cave. I'm thinking about actually making him a young adult (CR 13 by default), but nerfing him by limiting his abilities inside the cave (can't really fly far) and possibly some additional nerfs due to its sedentary lifestyle.

The party should consist of 4 level 8 characters, including a factotum, rogue, warlock, and druid (healer-buffer). They will be between 80% and 100% healthy (spells, hp, consumables).

The cave will consist of different terrain to accommodate the "fight in stages" approach.

noob
2017-12-12, 07:38 AM
What will happen is the following:
Druid cast protection against fire and resistance to fire on the varied party members(not both on each due to spell slots).
The dragon can no longer use his breath against the party efficiently.
Then the party kills the dragon with repeated ranged attacks or spells.
If the dragon try to full round attack then it meets trouble because he might get flanked(due to druid summoning or other shenanigans) and suffer from quick death.
If the dragon try to grapple something and flee then the adventurers will deal high damage while he is doing so and two of the adventurers have high evasion(and the druid shapeshift) so the most grapple-able target is the warlock(but that would leave him in a situation where he takes massive sneak attack damage).
So the question is which kind of spells can that dragon cast.

BWR
2017-12-12, 01:46 PM
How much intelligence does the party have about what they are meeting? Being able to prepare for what you are going to face and having to defend yourself from an ambush is often the difference between victory and defeat.
I had an unoptimized random encounter dragon kill 3/4 of a party simply because they weren't prepared (and the dragon had like one round of prep) because of terrain and surprise. Had the party known what they were going to face and had a round or two to prepare, the dragon would likely have been dead before it got a single PC.
I've also had dragons notice people being buffed up and, before initiating hostilities, spent time talking to the PCs until buffs expired. Dragons aren't stupid and if talking can gain an edge, they may very well do so. Just let them talk and keep track of how long you've spoken IRL and hope that all the 1round/level buffs are gone - which shouldn't take too long. If you can keep it up long enough for the 1 minute/level buffs too, even better.

noob
2017-12-12, 01:55 PM
How much intelligence does the party have about what they are meeting? Being able to prepare for what you are going to face and having to defend yourself from an ambush is often the difference between victory and defeat.
I had an unoptimized random encounter dragon kill 3/4 of a party simply because they weren't prepared (and the dragon had like one round of prep) because of terrain and surprise. Had the party known what they were going to face and had a round or two to prepare, the dragon would likely have been dead before it got a single PC.
I've also had dragons notice people being buffed up and, before initiating hostilities, spent time talking to the PCs until buffs expired. Dragons aren't stupid and if talking can gain an edge, they may very well do so. Just let them talk and keep track of how long you've spoken IRL and hope that all the 1round/level buffs are gone - which shouldn't take too long. If you can keep it up long enough for the 1 minute/level buffs too, even better.

Talking is a free action.
So if you suddenly decide that this time talking takes time you should warn the players or else it just looks like bad gming unless usually talking in battle took time(which usually is not the case)
Also if you do that you definitively lose the ability to have your villains monologue mid battle(because if you decide talking takes time then the villain that starts talking then is losing time and so can only say some words per turn)

Seriously if you do that then the players are going to say "oh the last time we got tpked by a villain doing a monologue in fact we had 50 rounds to club him to death with anything so if you decide it took time to speak with the dragon then we won and murdered the previous villain in the previous villain encounter"

So doing that without having spoken to the players about that mechanic before and while having played without that mechanic in all the past is a really bad move which will destroy the player trust.
However if you are up front and tell them that mechanic then play with that mechanic yourself and minute yourself then it is fine.
But it is playing with a houserule: by raw talking is a free action.(and if you say otherwise then the players will start using communication spells to bypass that because actually there is a lot of communication spells that works faster than real time speaking especially if you apply metamagics)

heavyfuel
2017-12-12, 08:54 PM
@ OP:

If you're going to trap the dragon, you're taking away its mobility, which is probably the most important thing for a dragon's survival at lower levels. If he's forced to be in melee of the druid, the animal companion, the factotum, and the rogue, he's going down very fast



Talking is a free action.
So if you suddenly decide that this time talking takes time you should warn the players or else it just looks like bad gming unless usually talking in battle took time(which usually is not the case)
Also if you do that you definitively lose the ability to have your villains monologue mid battle(because if you decide talking takes time then the villain that starts talking then is losing time and so can only say some words per turn)

Seriously if you do that then the players are going to say "oh the last time we got tpked by a villain doing a monologue in fact we had 50 rounds to club him to death with anything so if you decide it took time to speak with the dragon then we won and murdered the previous villain in the previous villain encounter"

Talking is most definitely not a free action in these situations. And you shouldn't warn the players that if you need to talk with someone for a few minutes - say if you're using a Tongues or Speak with Animals spell - there's a duration for these spells, which should be counted however the DM deems appropriate (I use a stopwatch)


Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.


As for monologues, maybe don't do them. They're boring, and if a player says "I cast fireball" midway, it's fair game.

Fizban
2017-12-12, 10:37 PM
The dragon I had in mind would be a red dragon, of roughly CR 10 (juvenile or young adult). The idea is that a wizard trapped the dragon in his lair, and the dragon now lives in a form of a cage, which is essentially a giant cave. I'm thinking about actually making him a young adult (CR 13 by default), but nerfing him by limiting his abilities inside the cave (can't really fly far) and possibly some additional nerfs due to its sedentary lifestyle.

The party should consist of 4 level 8 characters, including a factotum, rogue, warlock, and druid (healer-buffer). They will be between 80% and 100% healthy (spells, hp, consumables).

The cave will consist of different terrain to accommodate the "fight in stages" approach.
Crucial point: will the party know they're fighting a dragon? Followup: how big is the cave, and how savvy is the druid?

The savvy thing to do is for the Druid to bring Downdraft (SpC), which even of successful reflex save will force the dragon 50' down, and Mass Resist Energy (SpC again) to shield the party from the breath weapon. Further savvyness would be to bring nets and Tanglefoot Bags to drag it down. But, while the dragon's attack bonus isn't crazy, this party lacks a proper frontline- evaluate the +24 attack and 24 AC vs your party's numbers and how savvy they are to see if they should even engage it in melee. At Large size it has bite/claw/claw/wing/wing/tail, but note that everything but the bite is at -5 (to +19) without the Multiattack feat (which drops it to -2 for +22), and when hovering they lose the wing attacks. Juvenile dragons don't have Frightful Presence (unless you give them the Awaken Fightful Presence feat), so you don't have to consider the -2 penalties from being shaken that bigger dragons tend to give out. (Edit: fixed dragon adjusted attacks)

Without the Mass Resist it'll be a dps race between the party's ranged and the dragon's breath, with the breath dealing ~44 every couple of rounds (save 22 for half, or 24 if you give it Ability Focus). In DnD durations start the round you use them, so a roll of 1 means you can breathe twice in a row, a roll of 2 means you only wait one turn in between, etc- but the Recover Breath feat seems to think the roll is full rounds of no breath and says the minimum is every other round: you'll have to decide how you're running the breath cooldowns. You can tune how fast by giving the dragon Recover Breath to speed it up, or use other stuff like Enlarge or Split Breath to slow it down while looking impressive without actually dealing more damage. You can also put a real scare into them by using Maxmize Breath for a flat 80 point save for half- but it's bad form to do that without warning against people who have less than 70hp.

From the air, it's easiest to say that a cone breath weapon used at the full range hits a circle the same width across as the cone is long (it's actually a bit more at max and depends on how far they are from the ground, but this is for ease of use). So a 40' cone on the ground, or a 20' radius centered on the dragon if used from 40' in the air- which is a good height to be at anyway, well out of even Enlarged melee and smaller thrown weapon range. Note that without serious use of Enlarge Breath the dragon cannot breath from outside the Warlock's base Eldritch Blast range, and the warlock should be delivering about 13 per turn: if the warlock lands about 3-4 shots per breath (with a bit of help from the party) they're winning the DPS race, at least until you count the dragon's 168 hit points. (Edit: fixed warlock damage)

On spellcasting: a Juvenile Red has 1st level casting. This is enough to mess with it's AC by applying Mage Armor and/or Shield for up to +8: weather or not you do this depends on the stats of your party. There's also the popular Blood Windfor a round of 20' range increment natural weapon attacks. Other spells like Ray of Enfeeblement or Clumbsiness, Fog Cloud or Wall of Smoke, True Strike, or even just Unseen Servant or Hoard Gullet or Comprehend Languages are fine options. Disguise Self to appear as a different color if you want to mess with them, Feather Fall is never expected on flying creatures but basically turns a stall (or Downdraft) into a mere 60' loss of height with no damage, or even Magic Missile. A pair of Arcanist's Gloves (MiC) is actually cheap enough to fit and give an optimized gear boost, allowing +2 cl on two spells per day, huge for a 1st level caster.


So I'd expect the fight to go something like this: The dragon moves into position and breathes straight down on the party from 40' up. (If you're aiming for the Maximize scare, it has to spend the first round flying into position and beginning to Hover, because it can't begin the hover on the same round it uses Maximize Breath. Then it can MB) After that there are several options:

A: stay in that position and wait for breath to cool down (taking Full Defense [remember Full Defense is a dodge bonus so it helps against Eldritch Blast], activating magic items, or maybe casting a spell).

B: if the party displays respectable ranged attack power, consider moving to the extent of flight range while breath cools down and performing long strafing runs in and out to reduce damage. This will shut down basic Eldritch Blast, possibly even Eldritch Spear on those rounds, and should impose at least a -2 or -4 penalty on bows which is as good as Full Defense.

Alternatively if Hovering: reduce altitude to 20' to trigger the dust cloud from Hover, giving yourself full concealment against anyone within the cloud, and ready an action to follow the ranged attacker if they try to leave the cloud (keeping the cloud on top of them). Dragons have Blindsense so you can always target your breath weapon.

C: if the party displays significant ranged attack or spellcasting power, dive and engage that target, if it is possible to do so without becoming surrounded. Alternatively, use Hover or Fog Cloud to prevent targeted spellcasting (you can cast Lines and Cones and maybe Rays into places you can't see, but not Fireballs or targeted stuff) and get that 50% miss chance.

D: if the party displays resistance to fire and ranged ability, retreat to a more defensive and enclosed position to either wait out the spell or force the party to engage in melee.

Advanced Diving: with BAB +16 the dragon could Power Attack for up to 16. Cast True Strike while a long ways away, then make a long diving charge (up to twice your flight speed remember) ending with a claw attack at double damage, for 2d8+8+32= ~49 damage. This could be useful if for some reason the dragon must fight the fire resistant party in the open field.

With Adroit Flyby Attack and Wingover you can swoop in and out to deliver a bite every round without suffering AoOs, but note that a large dragon's bite has 10 reach anyway so they'd only suffer AoOs if they passed a person who's Enlarge Person'd or had a reach weapon, and this still doesn't protect them from readied actions. After the first couple attacks the dragon should have an idea how much it can power attack without relying on True Strike.

Standard Flyby Attack is basically the big "tactical" option: if the dragon has big things it can hide behind that are up to about 100'- 150' apart, but are also within 40' of the party, it can move from behind an object to breath weapon and back to behind an object. The problem is this requires very specific terrain, and doesn't help with the breath cooldown. Though you could just ready your action to move behind a different pillar, this once again doesn't stop the PCs readied actions from hitting you on the way.

If the party doesn't have reach or decent ranged weapons, you can just Wingover back and forth without even needing Flyby Attack. Minimum Forward Speed of bad maneuverability doesn't actually have to occur at the start of your turn: you can move up and bite on turn 1, then bite and move away on turn 2, using Wingover to change directions and using breath as it recharges. This is probably the most basic full aggro dragon attack plan.
(Edit: added more tactics)


Since the dragon is "caged," it really doesn't make sense for them to have anything in the way of serious traps or minions, so that's about it. Obviously it should fight to maximum ability if cornered. The only real "stage" change of the battle is when it becomes clear that the dragon can't just breathe you to death, which as discussed above means it should flee unless it really has a reason to believe it can to 1v4 in a melee. You can force some "stages" by having it deliver the first full attack while hovering (so no wings), then land and make the full full attack, or doing something like letting it cast Burning Blades on (all) its natural weapons for a big scary attack round, saving Maximize Breath for later, or recklessly Power Attacking for tons of damage- but none of these make sense from the dragon's point of view, and not going all-out means you're betting that the dragon will actually survive long enough to do the next "stage" while it waits for cooldown or positioning. And if you actually do land Maximize Breath or huge power attacks when people are damaged, you're much more likely to kill them. Even the idea of flying around behind a wall and chugging potions to prolong the fight is far from guaranteed to work.

Ironically, the most "stage" like dragon fight is probably the one with the least optimization. The basic fly+breath, fly+bite->bite+fly (Wingover) and repeat pattern gives the party plenty of room to figure out what they need to do, and assuming they figure out some way to ground/threaten/resist it that they didn't pull out on the first round, that will trigger the dragon to escalate with a super dive or maximize or Hover/Fog Cloud concealment effort or whatever. The catch is that a savvy party drops the hammer on round 1 and doesn't give the dragon a chance to recover.


Going up to the Huge dragon doesn't add many more options. It won't be able to Crush or Snatch most foes (only Small ones), it only goes up to 3rd caster level, and only gains one feat. Mostly it gains 15' reach with the bite and 10' reach with all the other natural weapons, making it much harder to engage (or avoid) in melee without a reach or enlargement of one's own, and it gains DR 5/magic which makes non-magical bows much worse. And another +3 attack, +3 AC, +2d10 breath, Frightful Presence for a chance at -2 on the PC's rolls, and about 50 more hit points.

BWR
2017-12-13, 11:46 AM
Talking is a free action.


Don't be intentionally stupid. If the players spend 10 minutes doing IC talking, it takes 10 minutes in the game as well.



So if you suddenly decide that this time talking takes time you should warn the players or else it just looks like bad gming unless usually talking in battle took time(which usually is not the case)


I have to tell PCs why the NPCs are doing what they are doing?



Also if you do that you definitively lose the ability to have your villains monologue mid battle(because if you decide talking takes time then the villain that starts talking then is losing time and so can only say some words per turn)
What the hell are you talking about? You are making some very weird (and incorrect) assumptions about my games. To spell it out, since you obviously need to be spoonfed, if the party comes in fully buffed there is nothing stopping NPCs from trying to talk to them. If the players say "we ignore and attack", fine, combat gets under way as usual. If they let NPC continue and possibly strike up a conversation, then durations don't go on hold.



Seriously if you do that then the players are going to say "oh the last time we got tpked by a villain doing a monologue in fact we had 50 rounds to club him to death with anything so if you decide it took time to speak with the dragon then we won and murdered the previous villain in the previous villain encounter"


How the hell do your games run? My games aren't computer games with unskippable cutscenes, and if you are running yours that way you really should fix things.



So doing that without having spoken to the players about that mechanic before and while having played without that mechanic in all the past is a really bad move which will destroy the player trust.
However if you are up front and tell them that mechanic then play with that mechanic yourself and minute yourself then it is fine.
But it is playing with a houserule: by raw talking is a free action.(and if you say otherwise then the players will start using communication spells to bypass that because actually there is a lot of communication spells that works faster than real time speaking especially if you apply metamagics)

The hell are you talking? Mechanics? Talking takes time, this is incontrovertible. Talking isn't magic. Only a complete moron would assume you could say anything more than a few words as a free action 'because RAW'. Or do you think one could conceivably recite the complete works of Dickens in 6 seconds? Do debates or discussions never takes longer than a few minutes because 'talking is a free action'. Is a song or story told by a bard to a crowd basically instantaneous?