Let's... Let's Read & Play: Baldur’s Gate II - Bhaal is Dead! [Archive] - Page 2

Khay

2018-03-24, 02:28 PM

Is it Maiden Minsc? I feel it is Minsc. Nothing feels quite as stupid as the mentally challenged hamster wrangler show up with a japanese maiden dress, a feather duster and an old tenderiser.

Not quiiiiiiiite. Good guess, though! :smallbiggrin: Minsc will actually make another appearance, and it'll be about as reasonable as Magical Girl Maiden Minsc, but that's a few chapters from now.

I have to make a confession: I sort of accidentally overwrote the file for Chapter Fifteen. What you're seeing below was scraped out of the Volume Shadow Copy Service. It should be mostly complete, but I apologise if there's anything weird in there. It doesn't help that the novel is incredibly thin on content in the Ust Natha section (we'll get there, don't worry.)

The last chapter ended with a dozen drow charging a silver dragon head-on. She iced six of them with her ice breath. Today, we find out what happened to the other six.

Adalon picked up one drow warrior — a man in glittering chain mail — and squeezed so hard his eyes popped out before he died a bloody, bone-shattered wreck. Adalon tossed him to the floor of the cavern in a splatter of gore that made one of his companions leap aside.
Something like a fireball or some other kind of obviously magical fire exploded near the dragon's head, but she just brushed it off and flicked aside the drow who'd cast the spell. The impotent mage hit the wall of the cavern hard enough to crack his head like an egg.

Yeah, that's roughly how you'd expect that to go. The remaining drow break ranks and flee, and Adalon lets most of them get away. Team Abdel mixes in with them.

"We were the advance party," Abdel said, assuming that if it didn't work, he'd probably still be able to kill the lone drow.
The dark elf nodded and sighed, sitting down on the rough stone floor of the dark cavern like a half-empty sack of grain.

Well, Adalon lets at least one of them get away. Silvers are nothing if not merciful. (At least I hope he isn't a sole survivor, because this would look really suspicious otherwise.)

"Who's in charge?" the dark elf asked, opening his eyes and looking directly at Jaheira.
The druid glanced at Abdel, and the drow followed her gaze. His brow wrinkled, and he seemed confused. Abdel was about to claim leadership of the party but realized the drow was finding that unusual for some reason. Abdel looked at Imoen and tilted his head. They'd known each other long enough, and Abdel knew she had a dramatic streak to her that would pick up on what was passing between them and their reluctant new friend.
"I am," Imoen said, her voice regal in her new skin.
The drow nodded and said, "I am Solausein, second to Phaere."

This is not a "Captain Bavarian" situation - it really does say "Solausein." I checked my paper copy and everything. (Shout-out to Thriftbooks. I paid 1 cent plus shipping.) At least this'll make it easy to distinguish between the two portrayals of the character.

Drow society is extremely sexist, but gender roles are (mostly) flipped compared to contemporary Western society. Basically, the women are in charge, because Lolth (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Lolth) only accepts female clerics (for the most part). It's still the women who wear the skimpy outfits, though, and men still fight and learn arcane magic. It makes sense that Solausein would instinctively turn to Jaheira.

"I was sent to kill the dragon," Solausein said.
Imoen glanced at Abdel, then said, "We were sent to offer it one more bargain."
Abdel couldn't help but feel a twinge of pride. Imoen could really think on her feet.
"Well," the drow said, "with all due respect, it seems Phaere assumed you would fail."
"Did she assume you would too?" Imoen said with a tilt of one eyebrow.
The drow looked up at her sharply but quickly looked away. (...)
"We should return to Ust Natha," he said, not looking at them.
Imoen smirked at Abdel and said to the drow's back, "You take point."

One of the challenges with an ensemble cast (and indeed with a pen-and-paper D&D group) is to make sure each character actually has something to do. This was a big problem in the first book, where every character other than Abdel was completely worthless. Athans is doing a better job in this novel. We haven't seen much of Imoen yet, but the Underdark chapters flesh out her character a fair bit.

We'll see more of this in the future. For now, we switch viewpoints back to Team Evil:

"All this for a diversionary tactic," Phaere said, staring up at the tall archway of the completed gate. "I will say one thing for you humans, you do think big."
Bodhi regarded her coldly and said, "I haven't been human for a long time, young matron."
Phaere turned to the vampire and smiled, letting her eyes slowly crawl up Bodhi's tight, leather-clad body.
"I stand corrected," she said.

See, I have a pet theory about bad books. It's not a real theory, but I like it. If you want to learn about the beliefs a society, I would argue, you shouldn't just look at its political debates and its high art. Deliberate representations of viewpoints are valuable, because their creators know what they're doing, but it doesn't tell the whole story.
To get a sense of how the society bellyfeels (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak#Bellyfeel), you should also look at its entertainment, particularly the vaguely crappy genre fiction. Authors like Young Philip Athans have to rely heavily on tropes and stereotypes, because they just aren't particularly good writers. Also, nobody expects much out of a videogame novelization anyway. You get a lot of unreflected, straightforward representation of social attitudes in these books.
So my point is that this section is a real trapped-in-amber moment for the sexual politics of the early 2000s. We get a fumbling attempt at LGBT representation, but it's two attractive women and they're both villains and they'll both die before the end of the book.

... also, Bodhi hasn't been a human ever, but let's not dwell on that. (She's probably keeping Phaere on a need-to-know basis.) This sub-chapter is mostly about the gate, anyway. Which gate, you ask? Well:

When Bodhi turned back to the gate, it was like looking at a rippling pool that was somehow standing perpendicular to the ground. Where she'd been able to see the rounded roofs and tower tops of the drow city of Ust Natha through the archway, now there was only a blue-violet shimmering. There was an audible hum.
"You said you wanted to see it work," Phaere said.
Bodhi smiled at her. "And your army is prepared," the vampire said, again more a warning than a question.

Phaere confirms that an expeditionary force is being prepared, and Irenicus can use them as he wants, as long as she gets the mythal. Bodhi ruminates on this for a while.

Bodhi didn't understand exactly what a mythal was. All she needed to know was that Phaere wanted one badly enough that she'd lead a regiment of drow warriors into the forest of Tethir to get one. The fact that Suldanessellar had no mythal and Irenicus had no intention of getting one for her was something Phaere would have to find out the hard way. By the time she did, Irenicus would be done with whatever it was he needed to do, and they'd be long gone[.]

Heh. This is something that someone like Irenicus would do, and it's something that someone like Phaere would fall for. This is one of a handful of times where the book actually expands on the plot. It's nice to see - I would've liked more of this (and less minotaur wrestling.)

So what's the point of this gate business?

"The people who followed us will be here soon. They've been to see the dragon by now," Bodhi said.
"Amazing," Phaere breathed. "The lengths ... I lost warriors getting those eggs."
"Well," Bodhi said, taking a step closer to the humming gate, "good for you. When the three of them get here, they'll have to think they've succeeded in getting the eggs back. They'll want to escape the city and bring the eggs to the dragon, who they think will send them to Suldanessellar. I’ll have someone here who they'll think is a friend, who'll nudge them in the right direction— through the gate."
(...)
Bodhi smirked. "This gate doesn't lead to the dragon, Phaere. It will bring them where I want them to go."

It's a trap! (https://media.giphy.com/media/lk0TFUdop2JTW/giphy.gif)

This plan strikes me as a little convoluted. Bodhi and Irenicus rely on Team Abdel meeting Adalon, Adalon sending them to Ust Natha, Team Abdel recovering the eggs, and them using the gate as their means of escape. Most of Ust Natha isn't in on the plan, just Phaere's cronies, and we've all seen what Abdel is like. There's a 90% chance he'll do something stupid like, I don't know, eat a live spider or something. Abdel is dull and easily manipulated, but this plan has too many moving parts.

Anyway, speaking of manipulation: I mentioned that this chapter contains a surprise return of an old "friend," courtesy of Bodhi. And it is...

... *drumroll* ...

A small, round-faced man with the features of an elf but the ears of a human stepped tentatively onto the marble tiles of the square in Ust Natha.
"Yoshimo," Bodhi said.
The Kozakuran looked around himself once, his mouth open in awe, and took a moment to find Bodhi.
He smiled weakly and said, "Bodhi, you have most unusual friends."

Yoshimo! Dun dun dunn!

Last time, Adalon gave us a makeover. (Including Viconia, who already was a drow, but an exile.) Today, we're taking our stylish drow team to Ust Natha.

https://i.postimg.cc/Ghmy90Rw/6t7Q2iP.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/6t7Q2iP)

The doors only open - and the guy only appears - if you've talked to Adalon. You aren't supposed to be able to get into the city without talking to him.

:smallyuk: UDDOOR01: Who is there! You are Drow, but there are no scheduled patrols this day! Identify yourselves!
:amused: VICONIA: Stand strong, <CHARNAME>. The Drow cower before no one, least of all their own.
:amused: VICONIA: I will speak to this worm of a male. You there! We are from the city of Ched Nasad, and you will let us pass. We require rest and the services of your temples!
:smallyuk: UDDOOR01: You are welcome within, travelers from Ched Nasad. I regret my tone but all must be examined before entry to Ust Natha.
:smallyuk: UDDOOR01: There would normally be an extensive questioning of you, but we were expecting your group from Ched Nasad. Your late arrival has delayed the plans of Solaufein.
:smallyuk: UDDOOR01: Enter quickly, and be sure that you seek Solaufein's counsel. He of the Male Fighter's Society will instruct you on your conduct within Ust Natha.
:smallyuk: UDDOOR01: Be aware that your welcome is conditional, and that if you fail to meet with him or fail him in any other way, you will be hunted for sport by all that care to join in.
:smallyuk: UDDOOR01: The Male Fighter's Society is in the North end of the city, past the Female Fighter's Society and just before the Spider pit.

Journal entry:
Inside the Drow City

It appears that Veldrin, whose form I hold, was expected in the drow city by a drow commander named Solaufein. I am to meet him at the Male Fighters' Society... in the north end of the city past the Female Fighters' Society and just before the Spider Pit. Not doing so would likely look... suspicious.

Dialogue around Ust Natha changes a lot depending on whether :roy: CHARNAME is female and whether Viconia is in your party. If you are female or don't have Viconia, you have to bluff your way past the doorkeeper.

Because the Ust Natha questline has a "back door" solution, you can fail the quest. This is your first opportunity to do so, if you (for example) accidentally introduce yourself as <CHARNAME> from the lair of Adalon. ("What? No patrol has returned from that winged serpent's lair alive. No doubt this is some trick of hers and you are exceptionally dim to have tipped me to it!") But we have Viconia, so this is a non-issue.

https://i.postimg.cc/htJQb9h2/dVfum4z.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/dVfum4z)

(Hacker voice) I'm in.

As a nominally civilized area, Ust Natha is pre-explored. The city has a certain gloomy grandeur to it, and it looks like nothing else in the game. Also, giant spiders are roaming freely. I dig it. We'll visit most of those landmarks, but first we need to check in with this Solaufein person.

https://i.postimg.cc/sgtQnvhs/pGWPdTc.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/pGWPdTc)

In case you were wondering, everyone - and I do mean everyone - in Ust Natha is a douchebag. One of the random encounters here is a group of drow who are hunting an escaped slave for sport. Yeah.

Anyway, Solaufein is sulking nearby.

https://i.postimg.cc/XJgr7LDY/0q4j5Mi.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/0q4j5Mi)

He does not have a portrait, but most of his lines are voice-acted, so you know he's going to be important.

:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Ah. You are the newcomers that have been sent my way, I see. As if I do not have enough to accomplish in a day without suffering for the welfare of the weak.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: There is no 'refuge' to be had in Ust Natha, fools. We pay for our existence here with blood and you shall do the same.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: My name is Solaufein, and for now you shall do as I say to prove your worth to the Matron Mothers. Failure is death.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: And just because there are females with you, do not think to challenge me. You are foreigners... no better than slaves until the Matron Mothers say otherwise.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Pfeh! I suppose I should get your shepherding underway. Have you a name, vagrant? Or shall I simply refer to you as the <PRO_MALEFEMALE>?
:roy: CHARNAME: Call me whatever you like. It obviously doesn't matter.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Ha ha! I like your spirit! I'd name you Waela, the fool, but I am told your name is Veldrin. That spirit will serve you well, if you know when to quelch it.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: No matter. One of the Matron Mothers has taken an interest in your arrival and wishes to avail herself of your skills.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: She has sent a Handmaiden to speak with you at the entrance platform to the city. I shall be there, no doubt, to herd you on your mission like a nursing mother.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: I will go to seek her out now. If you are intelligent, you will go to the entrance platform quickly. The Handmaidens are notoriously impatient.
:amused: VICONIA: I advise caution in this place. We are fortunate not to be taken hostage as foreigners and sold as slaves. If they mean for us to prove our place, we must serve the Matrons utterly.
:amused: VICONIA: Any misstep, no matter how slight, will draw the attention of the Spider Queen's watchers. And no doubt they are already curious of us... we do not need their scrutiny, yes?
:amused: VICONIA: Remember: absolute obedience to those of greater rank, especially the Handmaidens of Lolth and the Matron Mothers. To those of equal or lesser rank: no mercy.
:amused: VICONIA: Otherwise, take advantage of whatever favor is thrown your way. For ones such as us, it is the only way to achieve what you are not born to. No mercy. It is our way.

Journal entry:
Inside the Drow City

I am inside Ust Natha, and have been assigned a Drow commander, Solaufein, who does not appreciate my presence in the slightest. He says that I have aroused the interest of a Matron Mother, and I am to meet him and a 'Handmaiden' at the entrance to the city to receive further instruction from her. I cannot stumble now that I am within... the slightest error on my part and the dark elves will discover what I truly am. Nothing would save me then.

This is a good summary of how this is going to go down. You'll be assigned a quest, Solaufein will bicker for a while, and then you have to go somewhere with a strict time limit. The game isn't kidding when it tells you to hurry up - everything in Ust Natha is on a timer. In this case, we are to meet a priestess near the city entrance.

https://s22.postimg.cc/wjiticmwx/FKBZru3.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/FKBZru3)

There is a variable that tracks Solaufein's attitude towards you (fittingly called SolaufeinLikes.) I'll try to show off at least some of the differences in the dialogue, so the screenshot here shows what you get when SolaufeinLikes is 0, while the dialogue dump below is about a SolaufeinLikes of 1. (The screenshots will catch up in a bit, don't worry.)

:cool: SOLAUFEIN: You have come. Good. Your time in Ust Natha will be far less unpleasant if you continue to perform as you are commanded in a timely fashion.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: As I said, a Matron Mother has designated a task for us. Imrae, favored of Lolth, this is the traveler from Ched Nasad who might be of great use.
:smallyuk: IMRAE: Your story has been verified so far, Veldrin of Ched Nasad, and that is why you have not been sold as a lowly slave or made an amusement in the tavern... but you still have no place, here!
:smallyuk: IMRAE: You are fortunate, indeed, that many of our finest warriors are busy with... preparations. Elsewhere. Fortunate enough that a Matron Mother has decided to make use of you.
:smallyuk: IMRAE: Cling to that sole hope, worms, and do not fail the Matron Mother... for if you do, the horrors of your punishment shall be far more terrible than had we beset you at the gate!
:smallyuk: IMRAE: Explain what has occurred, Solaufein. And be quick about it, male, for the Spider Queen demands my attention.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: At once, Handmaiden. If I were to speak of the devourers, Veldrin... you would know what of I speak, yes?
:roy: CHARNAME: You mean the illithid? Yes, I know what they are.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Yes, I believe that is the name they call themselves... very intelligent of you. The psions have long been one of our fiercest enemies.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: A Matron Mother's eldest daughter ran afoul of devourers while scouting. Her fool companions fled or were slaughtered, and she was taken captive.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: They know a prize when they have one, the devourers. They will bring the daughter to their city, and should they reach it she shall be lost forever.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: With the... preparations... of the armies, we are the only ones who can intercept these devourers. We must go to their cavern entrance and wait for them.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Handmaiden Imrae has given me a blessed item of Lolth that will pull the devourers from their astral travel there... and it is there we must pounce.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: The Matron Mother has no desire to see her eldest daughter become a snack for the devourers, so we must not fail! Do you understand, Veldrin?
:roy: CHARNAME: I am to meet you at the entrance to the illithid caverns and ambush some illithid who have a Matron Mother's daughter captive.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Exactly. The illithid tunnels are in the southeast portion of the main Underdark cavern. I will be scouting and you will find me there when you arrive.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: We do not expect the illithids for some time, yet, so you have the opportunity to rest and resupply yourself, if that is what you wish to do.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: You must meet me at the entrance to the illithid tunnels within the next twelve hours, no more. Do not be late.
:smallyuk: IMRAE: Indeed. There are many exquisite horrors that may be found for you in the Demonweb Pits, should you fail. And if you decide to run, the driders will eventually track you down.
:smallyuk: IMRAE: As for you, Solaufein... the Matron Mother expects even better from you. Report to the temple before you leave the city.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: As... as you wish, Handmaiden.

Journal entry:
Inside the Drow City

I have been assigned the task of rescuing a Matron Mother's daughter from the illithids that have captured her. I am to meet Solaufein near the entrance to the illithid city, in the southeast portion of the main cavern area, where he will draw the illithids from their astral travel. I should delay as little as possible.

Once again, Solaufein isn't kidding - you have twelve hours, no more. If you don't show up, you fail the questline. It's enough time to rest and make the journey, but no more than that.

https://i.postimg.cc/nrRMqzx8/T7W7c64.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/T7W7c64)

Devourers are not to be trifled with, so you should buff your party before you talk to Solaufein. You'll have a few more rounds after you initiate dialogue, though.

:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Good, you are here. I was beginning to wonder how long I would have to remain waiting amongst these forsaken rocks before you showed up.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: But your timing could not be better. I sense that the illithids will come within range, soon, and I may safely pull them out of the astral plane.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Have you a question before the battle, Veldrin? Make it quick.
:roy: CHARNAME: I'm sorry about you being punished, I didn't mean to anger the Handmaiden.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: You are not very drow, to show such a weakness as sympathy. Keep your heart as steel and destroy the illithids. This will please me more than an apology.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Although I... appreciate... the thought behind your words. Handmaiden Imrae enjoyed adminstering her punishment excessively. It was... difficult.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: But enough talk. I sense the illithids' approach. Wait and I shall bring them out of the astral plane when they come close.

It may strike you as odd that the dark elves are constantly calling things out as being drow-like or not drow-like. But, once again, drow society is exactly that dumb.

Anyway, devourers.

https://i.postimg.cc/G3q4WMyM/hDTCgqA.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/hDTCgqA)

A few illithids and a few umber hulks teleport in. Solaufein and Phaere have to survive this battle, but the enemies don't tend to target them, so as long as you're careful with Fireballs, you should be able to get through this encounter.

:mad: PHAERE: It is about time that my captors were finally defeated. Hmph. I was beginning to think that they would reach their illithid city, after all.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Greetings, Phaere, daughter of Ardulace. I trust you are uninjured?
:mad: PHAERE: Who is that? Solaufein? So... Matron Mother sent you, did she? How that must gall you, risking your life to save mine.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: I did as I was commanded.
:mad: PHAERE: Yes, you did... as any male should. You have done well enough, I suppose, you and your... assistance. Hmmmn... who is this <PRO_MALEFEMALE> with you?
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: That one? That is --
:mad: PHAERE: I am sure <PRO_HESHE> can speak for <PRO_HIMHER>self, male. Am I correct? You have a tongue, yes? Who might you be?
:roy: CHARNAME: I am Veldrin of Ched Nasad.
:mad: PHAERE: Indeed? A foreigner? How very odd. We shall have to speak more, you and I, once we are back in Ust Natha.
:mad: PHAERE: I shall head back to the city on my own and inform the Matron Mother of your... successful service, Solaufein. You have proven useful. You should be grateful.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: You are going to return on your own? No! What if you encounter danger once again?! I shall not be responsible for --
:mad: PHAERE: I appreciate your touching 'concern', but I can handle myself, Solaufein. And it is my command, so you have no choice. Farewell.

<PHAERE leaves by way of Dimension Door.>

:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Blasted, arrogant wench! May the Spider Queen bite at her black heart!
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: I shall follow her, to ensure her over-confidence does not endanger us all. Return to the city on your own, Veldrin. I shall meet you at the city's entrance.

Journal entry:
Inside the Drow City

I rescued the Matron Mother's daughter, Phaere. She knew Solaufein, and also showed a passing interest in me. She went back to the city on her own. Solaufein followed, commanding that I meet him inside the city entrance soon.

These two have some history together, I think. This goes far beyond baseline drow hostility.

Solaufein then Dimension Doors away. Well have to go back to Ust Natha on our own.

https://i.postimg.cc/rFsDMSGq/RpB6WER.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/RpB6WER)

Phaere and Solaufein are waiting for us near the entrance platform.

:cool: SOLAUFEIN: You have returned, finally. Good. Bad enough that I had to worry over Phaere's safe return, I was not about to start concerning myself over yours.
:smallyuk: IMRAE: Yes. The daughter of the Matron Mother is safely returned. You have done an excellent service. I am told the Matron Mother is pleased.
:smallyuk: IMRAE: Phaere has also sent a command to you which must not be ignored. You are to meet her in the tavern here in the city. She wishes to speak with you, although I cannot wonder why.
:smallyuk: IMRAE: She asks for you, too, Solaufein. You are all to rest and relax in the tavern as a... reward... for your service.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: But, Handmaiden, I have no wish to --
:smallyuk: IMRAE: Do you wish to earn punishment a second time, male? You shall do as she says. She shall see all of you at the tavern within a day's time, no more. That is all.

Journal entry:
Inside the Drow City

I have returned to the city to meet Solaufein, where we were told by Imrae that we had done well. She also informed us that we were to report to the drow tavern within a day to meet Phaere once again... to be rewarded, apparently.

Somehow the notion of drow rewards fills me with almost as much dread as the notion of drow punishments. We can check out the tavern, th-

https://i.postimg.cc/yYGkdknc/65T5Vlu.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/65T5Vlu)

Oh. This sounds suspiciously like a sidequest. The duergar asks us to step up to the tank, (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Aboleth) so that's what we do.

🐟 DAABOL: Hear me... hear my thoughts in your mind... I am ambassador... but I have a service I demand of you... one that you will perform discreetly and with haste.
:roy: CHARNAME: Why would I stoop to working for you, fish?
🐟 DAABOL: You will stoop... if I so command... SURFACER! I can see it in your thoughts... clearly! Do you wish this secret announced? To the mind of every Drow within the city?
🐟 DAABOL: No, I did not think that you would. You will do as I ask, and you will walk away free. I care not why you are here. The concerns of your kind are worthless.
🐟 DAABOL: You will do the task I set before you, or your identity will appear in the mind of every Drow within this city. Are my thoughts clear? Good.
🐟 DAABOL: I ask of you... I command a deed of violence. I call for a death, that I might learn more of this place. It is simple, brutal, and more suited to you than my petty servant here.
🐟 DAABOL: Qilue... a priestess... I would learn of her faith and the power it grants. Her mind is the prize, and I would have you bring it!
:roy: CHARNAME: Kidnap a Priestess? She will not cooperate.
🐟 DAABOL: I do not require her as a whole. As I said, it is her mind that I require. Kill her. Slay her in her home and temple. Retrieve her brain, and bring it to me.
🐟 DAABOL: That is the task. That is the command I give. You will obey, or I reveal you, and you die. That is your choice.
:roy: CHARNAME: So you contend to hold me in service against my will, to perform this evil task?
🐟 DAABOL: That is what I have just directed, yes.

You do have a choice here, actually. You can do as directed, kill Qilue (https://www.imgur.com/Fb8zfRW) and carve out her brain. There's no real reward beyond the combat EXP. Alternatively...

:roy: CHARNAME: No, no, I don't think that is how this is going to work, fish.
🐟 DAABOL: Fish? Perhaps I have not made my thoughts clear.
:roy: CHARNAME: Oh no, I understand completely. I simply refuse. What's more, I'm telling you to shut up.
🐟 DAABOL: I have outlined the threat I intend. I do not bluff. Fear me.
:roy: CHARNAME: You are in no postition to act on your threats. I will tell *you* what to do.
🐟 DAABOL: I have warned you!
:roy: CHARNAME: And I have listened. I do not fear you, and I will do nothing for you.
🐟 DAABOL: What?
:roy: CHARNAME: You cannot harm me or I will expose you too. I die, you die. Simple. So shut up!
🐟 DAABOL: You are a strange individual. I release you to avoid trouble for us both. Leave me, volatile one.
:roy: CHARNAME: A pleasure to have made your acquaintance.

Much better.

Anyway, let's check out the tavern.

https://i.postimg.cc/W4G3XSVw/qOmDTcp.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/qOmDTcp)

It doesn't look comfortable, exactly, but it certainly is rather fancy. A lot of drow are hanging out here, including our special friends.

:mad: PHAERE: Ah! So Veldrin arrives at last to greet the female that <PRO_HESHE> rescued so valiantly from the clutches of the filthy devourers!
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Ah. I must have been invisible and uninvolved during that encounter, I see.
:mad: PHAERE: I was speaking to Veldrin, Solaufein. When I speak to you, it shall be to command you to lick my boot. Keep your bitterness silent or lose your tongue.
:mad: PHAERE: Now, ignore your emasculated commander's outburst, Veldrin, and consider this a time for reward and enjoyment. Mother Ardulace was pleased by your performance.
:mad: PHAERE: Solaufein's abilities are known to her, but she was delighted to learn you are such a powerful fighter. Ust Natha could use such as you, Veldrin.
:mad: PHAERE: Amongst the drow, only the strong survive... You could have slaves at your beck and call, rewards at your fingertips... the favor of Lolth. How does this sound?
:roy: CHARNAME: What's the catch?
:mad: PHAERE: The catch is that you have to earn that favor, Veldrin. Favor and comforts are not given out lightly... they must be purchased with blood and sacrifice.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Why don't you go ahead and carve out <PRO_HISHER> heart now, Phaere? You will get to that part eventually, won't you?
:mad: PHAERE: Silence! Not all drow forget that sometimes a reward is worth spending a part of yourself... or everything. It is a lesson you would do well to re-learn.
:mad: PHAERE: Seeing as you are so capable, Veldrin, you and Solaufein have been given another task to complete for the greater glory of Lolth.
:mad: PHAERE: You will meet me on the city platform, away from curious ears. But not right away... rest and amuse yourselves for a time. I shall be here awhile.
:mad: PHAERE: After I leave take no longer than a few days before you meet with me on the platform. This is as the Matron Mother commands, and so shall it be.

Journal entry:
Inside the Drow City

I have met Phaere, the daughter of the Matron Mother, at the tavern as commanded. It seems her Mother is very interested in me and we are to perform another task. After Phaere leaves, Solaufein and I are to meet her within a few days at the city entrance to receive further instructions. Until then, my time is my own.

You can start flirting with Phaere if you wish (and if your CHARNAME is male), but we already have a dysfunctional drow relationship going with Viconia. We'll pass for now.

You have a few days to spend however you see fit. Let's kick things off by having a drink with Solaufein.

https://i.postimg.cc/tT9gfPCQ/naqfmYc.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/naqfmYc)

Delicious bonus exposition.

:cool: SOLAUFEIN: What is it, Veldrin? I wish nothing more than to be left on my own and beyond the clutches of that Despana witch.
:roy: CHARNAME: What's the deal between you and Phaere, anyway?
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: That is something I would rather not discuss, Veldrin. With you or with anyone.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Suffice it to say that I have had dealings with Phaere and House Despana once before. Due to my own alliances, however, they cannot take proper revenge. Yet.
:roy: CHARNAME: Do you know anything about dragons in these caverns?
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Eh? Dragons? Dragon-kind can be found throughout the Underdark, Veldrin, as I'm sure you well know. Some walk amongst our kind, when it suits them.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: But in the vicinity of Ust Natha, I would have to say no... there are few dragon-kind found here. The most dangerous were driven off long ago.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: It is said there is an ancient dragon of silver that guards the old passages to the surface, where our hated cousins live. Perhaps the stories are true.
:roy: CHARNAME: What is there to do, here?
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: There are many entertainments to please even the most cruel or lustful amongst us, Veldrin. I am sure you can find something. I, myself, am rather uninterested.
:roy: CHARNAME: I'll be on my way, then.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: As you wish.

Yeah, I'm definitely thinking there's something weird going on between the two. Solaufein gives her a lot more back-talk than would normally be expected, given the difference in social standing. Also, note that Adalon is subject to need-to-know rules.
There actually isn't that much to do in Ust Natha. There are a few vendors (https://www.imgur.com/8NAdLrY) you can talk to, and the tavern has a fighting pit. (https://www.imgur.com/bkv3IyJ) You can also talk to the other patrons at the tavern, but this update is already running long, so we'll leave that for a future update.

Allegedly, the tavern has some lust pits. Let's see what those look like.

https://i.postimg.cc/G2zp12HB/hpkdvxg.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/hpkdvxg)

They look like a normal inn, apparently.

So... this hasn't been mechanically important since the first 20% of Baldur's Gate 1, but when you rest at an inn, you are given a choice of rooms to book. There are four types of room, and the more you pay, the more HP you recover. The Ust Natha Tavern is the one place in the game that offers only the hideously expensive Royal-quality rooms. It's a great touch.

Unfortunately, our stay is... less than restful.

https://i.postimg.cc/MZPGPvCN/VRemLLd.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/VRemLLd)

Another dream. Candlekeep is visibly breaking apart now. The rifts in the ground probably aren't a good sign.

:mitd: IMOEN: You came too late. Didn't I say you would come too late? You will learn to trust me.
:mitd: IMOEN: Don't be afraid. You are safe here... if you behave. I will show you what fills the void. What is now free.
:roy: CHARNAME: You are not Imoen. She said she has not had any dreams like these.
:mitd: IMOEN: I lurk behind your soul, in the very fiber of your being. I am the only thing left when mind and reason are stripped away.
:mitd: IMOEN: I will show you what you can be, what you can do... if you simply let yourself become what you are.
:mitd: IMOEN: I can show you all of this, because I am within. I am what fills the void. I am you.

What... is this? It can't be our soul, because we lost that to Irenicus. Is it the Bhaal-taint? I thought that was interwoven with our soul. Or maybe it was our soul. If this is the instinct, then why did "Imoen" help us against the Bhaal-thing in the previous dream...?

Imoen is not interested in answers.

https://i.postimg.cc/PrC5Bdhx/72loCz8.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/72loCz8)

But she does have things to show us. Imoen turns into the slayer and kills our party, including the other Imoen, then drags us upstairs.

https://i.postimg.cc/y89Y8nDC/whW39jo.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/whW39jo)

We return to the lecture hall. Imoen arranged some props, it seems. She turns us into the slayer before continuing her speech, to make sure we ļiste͏n.̛

:mitd: IMOEN: You are to be given a gift. It is a valuable prize, one that you had better appreciate.
:mitd: IMOEN: You worry for your comrades perhaps? Leave them, abandon them, and become what you must.
:mitd: IMOEN: There is great power in your heritage. Use it, and you will become closer to who you are... what you could be.

Ǵǫod.

:mitd: IMOEN: Feel what is in the void. Use the tools that you are given. Become part of something greater. I am in you, and I know what is best.
:mitd: IMOEN: Each time you use it, each time you accept it, you move a little closer to the evil within.
:mitd: IMOEN: Perhaps you lose yourself in the end, but you will go to a greater reward than you can know.
:mitd: IMOEN: After all, what does an eternity of nothingness matter, when you can destroy all that would oppose your development as easy as "one"...

https://i.postimg.cc/8CSkJWvJ/O7W8Oni.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/O7W8Oni)

O̷ne.

https://i.postimg.cc/MGm6yT0s/jqZZHcQ.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/jqZZHcQ)

T̛w̵o.

https://i.postimg.cc/d1WJxxxr/z59yn2G.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/z59yn2G)

TH͠R̶E̴Ȩ.

https://i.postimg.cc/x8c9D3w7/Itk9Ux3.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/Itk9Ux3)

F̧͞O͘U̸Ŗ.͞҉

https://i.postimg.cc/pV62Q38t/rC593dD.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/rC593dD)

Five.

https://i.postimg.cc/dtZJ5nmZ/ddE3cXH.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/ddE3cXH)

Well that was disturbing.

Actually, one more thing:

https://i.postimg.cc/qvf4Snjb/Cx9CrhK.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/Cx9CrhK)

This little message right here? This is art. It's the perfect follow-up to the bombastic and disturbing dream we just had. It's couched in nice and comfortable and videogame-y language, telling you that you just got a powerup, but it represents something incredibly bad for :roy: CHARNAME. Use the tools that you are given, indeed.

Anyway, we have a city to infiltrate, so let's get going. We'll discuss the Slayer another time. Let's see what Phaere wants.

https://i.postimg.cc/8zhNS5Y1/GLJKbUQ.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/GLJKbUQ)

Dang. Male drow who show this much backbone usually don't live long. I wonder what kind of game Solaufein is playing.

:mad: PHAERE: Ah, you have finally come. Good. Your timing is excellent, as I had just arrived here recently, myself. I trust you are ready to leave presently.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: What, exactly, are we to be ready for, Phaere? Why have you brought us out here? Is this some fool ambition of yours?
:mad: PHAERE: None of my ambitions are foolish, Solaufein. And we are here to perform a service for the good of the city and the Matron Mother.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: I wasn't aware Mother Ardulace did anything 'for the good of the city'.
:mad: PHAERE: Silence! You will obey, male! An eye tyrant... a beholder... is in the city, smuggling adamantine. The Matrons have decided we are to kill it.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: What is this?! Did you say 'we'?
:mad: PHAERE: I did. I am to join you in this duty. The eye tyrant has come on his Spelljammer ship, near here. Solaufein and I will go and scout it out, alone.
:mad: PHAERE: Veldrin... I trust you can find your own way to the ship. It is off one of the platforms in the southeast of Ust Natha. Do not take too long to catch up.
:mad: PHAERE: Come, Solaufein. We can catch up on 'old times'.

Journal entry:
Inside the Drow City

Phaere intends to join myself and Solaufein in attacking a beholder that has been smuggling adamantite. The beholder has come to the drow city on a Spelljammer ship off a platform in the southeast part of the city, and I am to meet Phaere and Solaufein there.

Why do all of our adventures seem to come back to illegal trading of metals? I hope this eye tyrant won't turn out to be our half-brother. That would be awkward.

Also, Spelljammer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spelljammer) ships are super cool, and I'm kind of upset that there wasn't ever an Infinity Engine RPG based on the Spelljammer setting. We don't even get to see the ship, which is vaguely upsetting.

https://i.postimg.cc/0NPx2vg7/M5SlYne.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/M5SlYne)

There's an arena situation instead.

:mad: PHAERE: Veldrin! Finally! We have been watching the crew leave the ship for their rest, and I suspect the eye tyrant is soon to follow! We must be ready!
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Concentrate all of your effort upon the eye tyrant, Veldrin. And do not bring harm to Phaere or myself... such 'accidents' happen far too often for my liking.
:mad: PHAERE: Hmph. Indeed... although I can -- wait! Wait, be still! It comes, I sense it! Be ready!!

Journal entry:
Inside the Drow City

Solaufein has warned me that I should bring no accidental harm to himself or Phaere when we engage the beholder. Such 'accidents' happen too often in drow society and no doubt I will be held accountable for such.

Don't worry, we're not going to harm you... yet.

This is a relatively straightforward Beholder fight, to the extent that any fight with an eye tyrant can be straightforward. Just kill it before it can do anything fancy.

https://i.postimg.cc/W48VdyjC/UB6MEpo.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/UB6MEpo)

Like so.

:cool: SOLAUFEIN: A most brilliant victory! The Spider Queen smiles on us today! We have spat in the great eye of the eye tyrants and live to tell the tale!
:mad: PHAERE: Indeed. Well done. Do not disturb the carcass, however. There will be several acolytes coming to deal with it.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Deal with it? What do you speak of, Phaere? Why would acolytes wish to do anything with the corpse of an eye tyrant?
:mad: PHAERE: Ask me no questions, Solaufein. We shall return to report to the Matron Mothers. Veldrin... I will see you again in the tavern in three days.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: What is going on, here, Phaere? This is too suspicious.
:mad: PHAERE: Do as you are commanded, male, and live. Veldrin, journey about the city at your will... but remember our meeting. Do not be late!

Journal entry:
Inside the Drow City

Now that the beholder is dead, Phaere and Solaufein have gone to report to the Matron Mothers. Phaere has commanded me to meet with her again in the tavern within three days.

Any given drow should be assumed to be involved in at least three conspiracies at any given time. It's really the only way to survive in drow society.

That said, this really is suspicious. The drow are clearly planning... something. No idea where the dragon eggs went, but I find it hard to believe that this is just a crazy coincidence.

We'll try to find out more about this... next time.

There isn't that much to discuss here, to be honest. This is another one of those chapters that set up for a payoff that'll never come, as we'll learn shortly. Yoshimo's return is going to be... questionable... but let's talk about that when he meets up with the party.

So, about the plot... Abdel has spent most of the series dancing on the puppet strings of some villain or other. This goes back to the previous book. Sarevok's plan in Bhaal must be Stopped! was nonsense (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22267793&postcount=210), but he always intended for Abdel to survive and muck things up, and he occasionally intervened to make sure Abdel's investigation remained on track. In this book, our hero was doing Bodhi's bidding and allowed himself to be lured to Spellhold. The infiltration of Ust Natha, too, appears to be part of Irenicus' plans. All according to keikaku.

Abdel has always been a pawn in some villainous scheme, starting in the first chapter of the first book. I've talked about this in the previous thread, but it bears repeating: This is a valid way to set up your plot. The game does this too, if to a smaller extent. However, it's starting to overstay its welcome. See, Abdel is an incredibly frustrating character. He never shows any initiative and he never thinks to question the information presented to him. He relies on the plot to keep kicking him where he needs to be, and when he gets there, he relies entirely on luck and coincidence to make it through. At this point, I have zero confidence that this time will be different.

So when you set up a plot like this - where the hero is unwittingly playing into the villain's hands - there has to be a confrontation. In all but the very bleakest works, there'll be a moment when the hero realizes they are being played or where the hero's actions (deliberate or otherwise) cause the scheme to derail. Since we're on an accelerated plot schedule, this moment will be in... Chapter Sixteen.

So, yeah. The next chapter will resolve this, in a way. It won't be satisfying, but it will be... well, let's just say that I didn't expect the plot to go into that specific direction.

As for AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION... this is a very short chapter without much in it, so consider this to be an open thread until the next update. I mean, it always is, but... more so than usual, now. I've noticed that some of you have mentioned replaying the games, which is definitely cool. Tell us about your more off-the-wall character builds and about any cool things that happened in your playthrough, perhaps? That sounds pretty good. I think I need to hear about some CHARNAMEs that aren't... Abdel.

Kish

2018-03-24, 02:43 PM

The illithid who kidnapped Phaere are, as far as I know, the only illithid in the game who have no magic resistance. You can wipe out their whole party with a single Death Spell.

Maryring

2018-03-24, 06:25 PM

And good is that because Illithids can be a huge pain. Unless this was added in a mod, there's a shopkeeper nearby who has scrolls of Death Spell, meaning that the only illiths you have to fight can be beaten without anyone's brain getting eaten.

Also, replaying the game has made me realize that I want to play another game like this, but perhaps using the 3.5 ruleset. It really is a shame since the whole DnD lineup and the campaigns you run on the system would be fun to add in computer games.

Maybe as a campaign maker base system or something. That'd be cool... but I'm mostly rambling now ain't I. Sorry.

Honest Tiefling

2018-03-25, 05:21 PM

See, I have a pet theory about bad books. It's not a real theory, but I like it. If you want to learn about the beliefs a society, I would argue, you shouldn't just look at its political debates and its high art.

You'd probably be surprised of how much anthropological work is dedicated to this very topic, especially of works you don't want to mention in public. I wouldn't be surprised if there were already several papers on the Twilight series alone. If you are interested in the subject, look up Pompeii, the Roman city that was reburied by the guy who discovered it out of sheer embarrassment.

And Marying? Don't play Neverwinter Nights or Neverwinter Nights 2 (3.0ish and 3.5, respectively). Their campaigns are really not up to the standards of BG/BG:II. For instance, you can go on a bloody rampage and kill everyone you meet...And a paladin will still work with you, else the plot breaks. She just lectures you a bit. Perhaps I'm giving Baldur's gate too much credit, but it existed in a time where there simply wasn't a lot so I'm willing to give it slack, even with its weird moments.

As for the Audience participation...I was incredibly unoriginal, and went with a optimistic, brash young Kensai/Fighter because I'm not good at any videogame. Yeah, cheap, but fight me irl. I just figured I'd go with reckless as a personality trait as I'd inevitably screw up some quests.

Guancyto

2018-03-25, 09:24 PM

That particular iteration of villainous plan (the one where the hero is unwittingly dancing on the bad guy's strings all along, and the bad guy is not his mentor or the like) is something that bothers me immensely whenever it crops up without a lot of solid justification. Except when it's done really, really well, it always seems like it's just a silly device to get the hero to follow a nonsensical plot. It bothers me even more in this case because the games didn't do that. Both Sarevok and Irenicus have one big thing they trick the PC into doing (kill the Iron Throne leaders and confront Irenicus in Spellhold, respectively). In each case this is a thing that the PC very much wants to do anyway, except in both cases the fix is in and the antagonists have stacked the deck in their favor (doppelgangers/Ulruant in Sarevok's case, Yoshimo/Saemon in Irenicus') but if the plan went off the rails you get the impression they'd be very much up to the task of making a new plan.

The books, meanwhile, have the antagonist leading the protagonist around by the nose at every juncture, and there doesn't seem to be any Plan B for what happens if literally anything goes wrong. Without even delving into Book Sarevok's stupid, inexplicable barely-plan, what would Book Irenicus even do if Abdel one morning tripped over his own feet and broke his neck?

For audience participation... hoo boy. So Baldur's Gate II has kind of been my comfort food over the years. When you stack up the amount I've played it compared to, say, Skyrim, it probably doesn't look so bad but, well, I've played it a lot of times.

My first go at the game was an evil elven sorcerer; I got relatively far along before I found out that siding with Bodhi too early had permanently locked me out of recruiting Edwin, and also that Viconia had no interest in elves. Scrapped it in late Chapter 3.

Plenty of unfinished runs here and there, but the ones that completed, I think were...
Good Elven Mage. Romanced Aerie, pretty blasty in nature because Aerie had support covered solid. My first successful run, it gave me a real liking for a party with two and a half mages. Actually finished SoA with five people because before ToB rolled around, the end of Aerie's romance arc has her leave to go explore the world and being the sap I was, I let her.
Evil Half-Orc Fighter. Absolutely straightforward high strength, heavy armor and two-hander build, was a huge jerk to everyone and got away with it.
Good Human Paladin (Undead Hunter). JUSTICE RAINS FROM ABOVE. As much ham as possible, but also the same absolutely straightforward high strength, heavy armor and two-hander build. ToB actually released while I was on this playthrough, so a character built around Carsomyr suddenly wasn't top dog any more. Romanced Anomen (god help us all). Became a good god.
Evil Human Kensai/Mage. The full twink build, I think I even named him "Minmax." Romanced Viconia. Was less of a jerk to everyone, but became an evil god so hooray for diplomacy? Also: a full evil party (Korgan/Edwin/Viconia) has some extra dialogue in the Underdark, mostly the two boys giving Viconia a hard time about being an outcast from drow society.
Good Human Thief/Mage. My first attempt at a solo game, it wound up becoming a duo when Jaheira (who I had ditched in Chateau Irenicus) started initiating romance dialogues when I visited her at the Harper Hold despite not being in my party. That duo ended up becoming a trio because I decided I didn't want to leave Imoen behind. Still massively overlevel, and let me tell you, Planetars make short work of Spellhold. Got to play Jaheira's entire storyline twice, as the bug also had both non-romance and romance script triggers running for her at the same time.
Good Half-Elf Wild Mage. New ToB subclass ahoy! Romanced Tashia, a mod sorceress.
Neutral Human Thief (Assassin). Was Rogue Buddies with (and romanced) Fade, a mod thief.
Neutral Elven Sorcerer - Sorcerers are crazy overpowered in ToB. This was my first proper solo game, also known as How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Mordenkainen's Sword.
Good Human Cavalier. Had modded the game sufficiently to romance all three Bioware ladies, ran a dual-wielding build with the Purifier and Crom Faeyr that was properly blender-like.
Good Elven Ranger (Archer). Teamed up with Mazzy for UNPARALLELED FIREPOWER. With Improved Haste and ToB abilities, it really is hard to beat nineteen criticals per round just from the archers in the party.
Good Half-Elf Sorcerer. Pumped Wisdom to get the best Wishes to let a Mage-heavy party cast and summon for days. Tried out Anomen for experimentation for the sake of this very thread, wound up killing him because there really is justice in the world. Became a good god.

Calemyr

2018-03-26, 04:29 PM

I've replayed the game multiple times, but tend to tire out in BG1 and ToB, which are pretty darn boring. The characters I play the most are as follows:

Current games:
------------------

Charname ("Shar-na-meh"): Female Human Undead Hunter. Mainly because I wanted to see Hexxat's stuff and UH Paladin seemed an amusing way to do so. Paladins should never be as cheerful as Char, especially paladins dating a vampire. Also travels with Wilson, because I've always wanted to have a bear in the party as well. (Char's game is on my phone, so I have something to do when bored.)

Abdel Adrian: Human Skald. My headcannon is that Athan's book is the absurdist bard version of the truth, while the real Abdel was a guy with a passionate fascination with everything (fighting, thieving, learning, and magic), but really had a gift for battlefield command (Skald Bardsong). Play him as an ADD character in an AD&D setting. Unlike Char, Abdel is a full EE trilogy character, playing through BGEE, Siege of Dragonspear, and BG2EE and thus is my "canon" character. I've tried to do a creative writing playthrough of his story, portrayed as a set of interviews between an aspiring bard and members of the party 20 years after the fact, but it didn't attract much interest.

Past Favorites:
-----------------

Ardgeihn: Human Kensai/Mage. Give him axes and he's death incarnate no matter the situation. Kind of a barbarian hero, no real guile but a real sense of visceral inevitability. Haven't played him in EE. Might enjoy it. Tended to favor Jaheira.

Seih: Human Fighter/Swashbuckler. EE him so that he gets his kit on the second class instead of the standard. Quarterstaff fighter extraordinaire, later picking up the katana as skill point back up. Heavy on the guile whenever I can use it. Don't usually play him with a romance, though I've played him once or twice with Aerie.

Sienna: Human Dragon Disciple. Much like Char, Sienna is just a playful and fun character - which works wonders juxtaposed to Dorn and Rasaad, both of whom she runs circles around and wraps around her finger. DD is an interesting kit, trading a one spell slot per level for a boatload of innate abilities that stack with gear and an increasing CON that can get her innate regeneration fairly easily. Pair her with a generalist wizard (or better, a wild mage like Neera), and you have both a blaster mage and a Batman mage, enjoying the versatility and power at the same time. I usually head-cannon her as drawing from Bhaal's blood rather than a draconic source, and so mod the Slayer script to remove the penalty for taking the shape (though not the time limit), as it's a form she's uncomfortably comfortable with. She fights with daggers and sometimes I also mod the Daystar to count as a dagger (as a Sunblade, it should also work as a weapon two sizes smaller. Bastard Sword > Long Sword > Short Sword becomes Long Sword > Short Sword > Dagger.).

Xean: Human (possibly Half-orc) Shaman. I keep wanting to try this girl, but the class just isn't as fun as it should be: a Gypsy-like dancer who turns the spirit world against her foes. Sadly, the class's dance ability is pretty useless, druidic spells lack the versatility to make spontaneous casting worth it, and weapon skills that would be cool if a priest's THAC0 wasn't crap. I keep trying to make her, and keep getting bored ten minutes in.

Torr: Human Monk. Wanted to be a priest of Ohgma, they said "no, but we can teach you to wrestle". Useless early on, but by the end of the game bringing a party just slows him down. Mainly a classic character, back when BG1 was completely unplayable. Now, BG1EE with a monk is just mostly unplayable.

Neithan: Half-elf Fighter/Mage/Thief. A good one-stop shop for my day-to-day needs. Leaves me pretty free to use whatever party I like at any time. Haven't played him in ages, but he's always a good call when I want to try some random party combination.

Scion: Half-elf Ranger/Cleric. Mainly before an update fixed the Ranger/Cleric exploit, but they were kind enough to include a setting that lets you turn it back on. My favorite phone BGEE character, because he's an effective fighter/buffer/scout/healer and removes the need for a healer from my party. This is good because I like having NPC's be part of the story and the NPCs in BG1 suck - leaving me with either the BG1NPC mod (not viable on a phone) or the new characters with BGEE, none of which are a healer. As such, he's usually left with Neera as an LI. I feel sorry for him because of that... Fortunately, he rocks the game pretty hard from Carbos to Balthazar.

I just realized I've played this game much more than I thought I had.

Edit: Got a name wrong. "Wilson" is the name of BG2EE's hidden companion. "Winston" is the name of the Prime Minister of England during WW2. Though, may I say, I would absolutely love to see Winston Churchill in BG2.

Spore

2018-03-27, 06:26 AM

Perhaps I'm giving Baldur's gate too much credit, but it existed in a time where there simply wasn't a lot so I'm willing to give it slack, even with its weird moments.

That is the problem point anyway. It is a decent work of art in a time where most games got away with a very simple plot. "This is the bad guy, just shoot him." Games like Diablo 2, Tomb Raider and even games that based on novels with much potential such as American McGee's Alice or the original Deus Ex that is based on an original story rather than using an established fantasy setting.

Baldur's Gate is good and has aged well. But it has its ... uhm moments too. Talos is cool as a tyrannical ruler in an absolute way. But having him share the district with other more sensible religions is bound to spawn a turf war. And one powered by the very gods themselves. What stops a Talos worshipper from going to next door and saying: "Uh, the priests of the storm god basically bully me into servitude although I hate this god. Help me." But many of these problems fall back onto standard fantasy and the setting itself.

One should never do an in depth analysis of fantasy economics, physics, metaphysics or even philosophy. Because if you want to know why Talos' ethos is the way it is you should not try and apply logic or even philosophy itself but Machiavelli on how these organisations keep their power and influence over the people.

I realize I have played a lot less BG 1+2 than you guys did. Which is mostly due to the point that I have a major character idea but the group support for these ideas is often very lacking.

In BG 1 I feel pressed into a thief or cleric role to help with traps or healing. In BG 2, the cleric situation worsens and the sudden power surge of arcane casters really tempts me every time. This combined with my enjoyment of pulling a single character through all expansions makes choice hard for me. And I often break down during choices. I think I have two dozen characters with under 2 hours played.

I mentioned an evil human sorcerer, a good human cavalier and a neutral half-elven blade above. I remember a good elven archer that was the bane of mooks and other enemy hordes. I also remember plastering half of his equipment withb stacks of arrows because he can always start to fire when enemies are in sight, and he does so very quickly.

Ah, maybe I should revisit him. You don't need healing if the enemy never reaches your party. From a character stand point he was basically standard good. He protects the innocent but he is not particularly concerned about nature itself. He has problems himself. And as my friend's TWFing elven "not-Drizzt-at-all" CHARNAME was meeting Aerie's every whim I tried to romance Jaheira and failed somewhere (maybe due to scripting errors, but mostly likely due to my general obliviousness)

Calemyr

2018-03-27, 09:59 AM

That is the problem point anyway. It is a decent work of art in a time where most games got away with a very simple plot. "This is the bad guy, just shoot him." Games like Diablo 2, Tomb Raider and even games that based on novels with much potential such as American McGee's Alice or the original Deus Ex that is based on an original story rather than using an established fantasy setting.

Baldur's Gate is good and has aged well. But it has its ... uhm moments too. Talos is cool as a tyrannical ruler in an absolute way. But having him share the district with other more sensible religions is bound to spawn a turf war. And one powered by the very gods themselves. What stops a Talos worshipper from going to next door and saying: "Uh, the priests of the storm god basically bully me into servitude although I hate this god. Help me." But many of these problems fall back onto standard fantasy and the setting itself.

One should never do an in depth analysis of fantasy economics, physics, metaphysics or even philosophy. Because if you want to know why Talos' ethos is the way it is you should not try and apply logic or even philosophy itself but Machiavelli on how these organisations keep their power and influence over the people.

In the setting, the gods are bound by an even bigger god, the "Overgod" Ao, who forces them to play nice. Well... nicer. The whole Bhaalspawn saga is more or less due to the gods pissing Ao off and getting kicked out of the god game for a while. During this "Time of Troubles", a number of gods died or went missing, including Bhaal. Bhaal just happened to have a backup plan in place. So not even Talos is stupid enough to start a holy war in the middle of a city. A little holy cold war, certainly, anything that can stay under the radar, but not even Talos wants to get on Ao's bad side.

Meanwhile, Talos does scratch a particular itch some people have: destruction and the power of destruction. It's easy to become fascinated with the raw power of the storm, and the potential to benefit from that power. I don't think Talos would give a rat's tail if someone went next door because the don't find Talos a fun god to worship. Such people are weak and not worth keeping, and if they ever face the storm again, it'll be as just another nameless face in the aftermath. Or, more likely, a recurrent source of lunch money for a true believer of Talos.

Put another way: Talos is like Electronic Arts. Everyone knows they're evil, but they provide enough resources to let a developer achieve things they couldn't dream of on their own. And then they own you and tear you down piece by piece, but somehow that slow death is far less frightening than returning to the nobodies you once were.

Funny you should mention economics, though. I always found it cool that there are a lot of stores in the games (primarily BG2) that you, as an adventurer, can't use, such as groceries and what not. Most often, the only three stores in a town are the one that sells you weapons, the one that sells you armor, and the one that sells you expendable items, so it's nice to see a game acknowledge that cities don't exist solely to serve the player.

Keltest

2018-03-27, 10:09 AM

In the setting, the gods are bound by an even bigger god, the "Overgod" Ao, who forces them to play nice. Well... nicer. The whole Bhaalspawn saga is more or less due to the gods pissing Ao off and getting kicked out of the god game for a while. During this "Time of Troubles", a number of gods died or went missing, including Bhaal. Bhaal just happened to have a backup plan in place. So not even Talos is stupid enough to start a holy war in the middle of a city. A little holy cold war, certainly, anything that can stay under the radar, but not even Talos wants to get on Ao's bad side.

Meanwhile, Talos does scratch a particular itch some people have: destruction and the power of destruction. It's easy to become fascinated with the raw power of the storm, and the potential to benefit from that power. I don't think Talos would give a rat's tail if someone went next door because the don't find Talos a fun god to worship. Such people are weak and not worth keeping, and if they ever face the storm again, it'll be as just another nameless face in the aftermath. Or, more likely, a recurrent source of lunch money for a true believer of Talos.

Put another way: Talos is like Electronic Arts. Everyone knows they're evil, but they provide enough resources to let a developer achieve things they couldn't dream of on their own. And then they own you and tear you down piece by piece, but somehow that slow death is far less frightening than returning to the nobodies you once were.

Funny you should mention economics, though. I always found it cool that there are a lot of stores in the games (primarily BG2) that you, as an adventurer, can't use, such as groceries and what not. Most often, the only three stores in a town are the one that sells you weapons, the one that sells you armor, and the one that sells you expendable items, so it's nice to see a game acknowledge that cities don't exist solely to serve the player.

One of my favorite lines of random NPC dialogue comes from Dungeon Siege, where if you enter a specific villager's home, it turns out he's the town baker, and is extremely confused by why youre in his shop. "Are you here to buy bread? I thought you adventurers didn't have to eat." Which is funny, because there is exactly one "food" item in the game, and its actually just a food-shaped weapon: a hunk of raw meat on a bone.

Honest Tiefling

2018-03-27, 06:57 PM

Baldur's Gate is good and has aged well. But it has its ... uhm moments too. Talos is cool as a tyrannical ruler in an absolute way. But having him share the district with other more sensible religions is bound to spawn a turf war. And one powered by the very gods themselves. What stops a Talos worshipper from going to next door and saying: "Uh, the priests of the storm god basically bully me into servitude although I hate this god. Help me." But many of these problems fall back onto standard fantasy and the setting itself.

Yeah, about that. I don't want to hold that against the game, because that's a huge flaw with the setting it is based on. Evil gods in Faerun are handled very badly and tend to play catch with multiple idiot balls. None of them have any positive attributes and are implied to murder their followers willy-nilly because that's how you handle underlings when you're evil. Calemyr probably gives the only valid and logical way for the evil gods to really function well in the setting, but its hampered by the fact that you can get just as much power worshiping neutral or goodly gods. Then again, I am not a fan of the Realms but I really feel like you need to establish your villians in your setting more than 'They cray-cray and wear lots of black and spikes'.

(Which is another problem, as the power levels of Selune (goddess of healing madness) and Cyric (god of teapot cabbage purple monkey dishwasher lunacy) suggests that Cyric has far better luck recruiting or manipulating the insane. Considering that he's a relatively new god, I think this is a problem that the setting has failed to address. I mean, can Xzar really be evil if he doesn't quite get reality? He probably wouldn't be a functional remember of the Zhentarim without his Monty and who knows what he would be up to otherwise.)

However, is it a fault of the video game itself? I'd lean to no, because if they changed that aspect of the setting, (which is huge, as most evil gods are like that, including our old pal Cyric. Bane is suggested to have some semblance of intelligence sometimes, but he's not back yet. I think Shar has gotten some off-screen bad***ery, but it's very questionable on how she gets followers. Malar has his moments, but I don't know which edition those arose in.) then it wouldn't be a very faithful adaption of the setting. Umberlee, Talos, Auril, Beshaba, Talona, and I think Loviatar all work that way, and that's most of the evil gods.

Perhaps it should have tried to really have shown this, but again, willing to cut the game some slack because of its age. I think the quest with Talos and Umberlee in the first game was a little better, but since that sorta involved a child asking you to murder people for the torture of her mother, maybe it needed a bit more exploration?

Kish

2018-03-27, 09:36 PM

But having him share the district with other more sensible religions is bound to spawn a turf war.
Never played a cleric, or with any mod that would involve you playing through a cleric stronghold, I take it.

The final quest for the Temple of Talos is "go wipe out the Temple of Lathander." The final quest for the Temple of Lathander is "we've discovered that Weathermistress Ada of the Temple of Talos has ordered her followers to kill us all; go kill them first." And the final quest for the Temple of Helm is, "Open war is about to break out between the other two temples; stop it and preserve the status quo."

Also, Cyric is god of strife, hatred, tyranny, death, and intrigue. He only cultivates worshipers in his own name because his ego demands it; anyone who sends prayers to Bane, Bhaal, or Leira empowers Cyric. Meanwhile, Selune's direct worshipers are only those who choose the goddess of the moon as their patron goddess.

Xzar is able to torture his apprentices and try to sic you on Harpers without his Monty.

Honest Tiefling

2018-03-27, 09:52 PM

Also, Cyric is god of strife, hatred, tyranny, death, and intrigue. He only cultivates worshipers in his own name because his ego demands it; anyone who sends prayers to Bane, Bhaal, or Leira empowers Cyric. Meanwhile, Selune's direct worshipers are only those who choose the goddess of the moon as their patron goddess.

Uh...He has to have followers, or his powers wane thanks to the Time of Troubles. Prayers to Bane could empower multiple gods, Bane's own son Iyachtu Xvim who got a lot of his domains being one of them.

Selune also has domain over motherhood and outcasts, so she is likely to be empowered by yanno, anyone who is pregnant or has small children. I think that would be a time for prayer if there ever was one.

Keltest

2018-03-27, 09:57 PM

Uh...He has to have followers, or his powers wane thanks to the Time of Troubles. Prayers to Bane could empower multiple gods, Bane's own son Iyachtu Xvim who got a lot of his domains being one of them.

Selune also has domain over motherhood and outcasts, so she is likely to be empowered by yanno, anyone who is pregnant or has small children. I think that would be a time for prayer if there ever was one.

Actually, prayers to bane just sort of fizzle out. Gods cant really usurp another god's worship, even a dead god.

Kish

2018-03-27, 10:03 PM

Iyachtu Xvim showed up later. As of Second Edition AD&D and the timeline of Baldur's Gate, Cyric gets all the worship people direct to Bane and Bhaal. Midnight has no worshipers and a lot of Mystra's worshipers don't recognize that the entity they're praying to is different from before the Time of Troubles; it doesn't mean she doesn't get the worship directed to the Goddess of Magic.

In no edition does Cyric only get worship from the insane.

Honest Tiefling

2018-03-28, 10:26 AM

In no edition does Cyric only get worship from the insane.

Never said that. I just said that its worrying that Cyric appears to have far more resources to sccop up the insane rather than the moon goddess of healing the insane. A bit dark, and probably something that should have been addressed, given that you encounter Xzar who probably got recruited in that way.

Also, pretty sure Ichatyu Xvim shows up in the second edition books, since he's quite dead by third edition. It would be really weird to have a god show up only to die offscreen before he even got written up! Xvim was active just after the Time of Troubles, so that'll be a hell of a retcon.

Khay

2018-03-28, 01:47 PM

There is a reference to Xvim in this very book, oddly enough. Bodhi meets one of his clerics in Chapter Eighteen. (Uh, spoiler alert?)

Xzar is kind of an oddity all around. Niemain's dialogue implies that Xzar is actually a (somewhat) trusted operative, for some reason.

Spore

2018-03-28, 02:12 PM

Nope. Never played a cleric or its stronghold quest. As for the (un)holy murdering that happens in there, it is about as expected. And this is one of the worse tropes Baldur's Gate did not overcome. Until the PC comes along, everything is a perfect stalemate. The cults cannot kill each other in Athkatla. the Werewolves and Elves never extinct each other in Dragon Age. The Stormcloaks and Imperials never gain a significant upper hand in Skyrim. Everyone is waiting for the dude with the health bar above their head to do ANYTHING.

Xzar is kind of an oddity all around. Niemain's dialogue implies that Xzar is actually a (somewhat) trusted operative, for some reason.

There are three different explanations for Xzar's madness.

1) Probably most likely: Poor character design.

2) Xzar pierced through the veil and saw too much. (Some of his prophecies sound insane but are actually true).

3) The Zhentarim are so irredeemably stupid-evil that only insane or psychotic characters could ever reasonably work for them.

Guancyto

2018-03-28, 02:50 PM

That's really a Survivorship Bias issue, though. To use your example, if the Werewolves could genocide the Elves without the PC's intervention, they'd have done it, and all you'd have would be a backstory note that the Elves are all dead and the Werewolves live here now.

(That being said, in that scenario the werewolves are winning, and that's why the elves ask you for help.)

Cazero

2018-03-28, 05:06 PM

Also, pretty sure Ichatyu Xvim shows up in the second edition books, since he's quite dead by third edition.
Wich reminds me that Icewind Dale 2 uses the 3rd edition rules and have you face an avatar of Ichatyu Xvim.
Can someone explain to me why anyone would feel obligated to change all the lore when creating a new iteration of an abstracted ruleset that the lore isn't following?

Honest Tiefling

2018-03-28, 07:57 PM

Wich reminds me that Icewind Dale 2 uses the 3rd edition rules and have you face an avatar of Ichatyu Xvim.
Can someone explain to me why anyone would feel obligated to change all the lore when creating a new iteration of an abstracted ruleset that the lore isn't following?

I think it has to do with the company trying to appeal to people. Torm's resurrection at the end of the Time of Troubles seems a bit like (ironic) deus ex machina to save a popular character. Baneypants and his pet project, the Zhentarim get rewritten A LOT. At least two gods are missing in 5th edition, and I think no god has actually managed to die in the realms.

Remember, this is the setting with continents/mini-settings getting added and then pulled back out again, so I still maintain my theory of them rewriting bits to appeal to the audience and instead making a confusing mess. Given that Chult was pushed during Hearthstone's Ungoro crater event, I'm also under the impression that WoW and other big video games influence things. Tieflings seem to have gotten a huge push after WoW's Burning Crusade.

Keltest

2018-03-28, 09:07 PM

Nope. Never played a cleric or its stronghold quest. As for the (un)holy murdering that happens in there, it is about as expected. And this is one of the worse tropes Baldur's Gate did not overcome. Until the PC comes along, everything is a perfect stalemate. The cults cannot kill each other in Athkatla. the Werewolves and Elves never extinct each other in Dragon Age. The Stormcloaks and Imperials never gain a significant upper hand in Skyrim. Everyone is waiting for the dude with the health bar above their head to do ANYTHING.

There are three different explanations for Xzar's madness.

1) Probably most likely: Poor character design.

2) Xzar pierced through the veil and saw too much. (Some of his prophecies sound insane but are actually true).

3) The Zhentarim are so irredeemably stupid-evil that only insane or psychotic characters could ever reasonably work for them.

Its three. The Zhents really are just that gratuitously evil. Theyre sort of the Anti-Harpers in that theyre super evil, not remotely secret and relatively large in numbers. Why exactly Elminster hasn't just gone and dropped a rock on all of their castles is one of the major flaws of the Forgotten Realms setting, especially since they get rid of annoying mages by questing them to kill Elminster, and he surely is very tired of that crap by now.

Khay

2018-04-01, 07:42 AM

Hi everyone! I hope everyone's having a good time. I'm pretty sick right now, hence the small delay, but fortunately I was maintaining a buffer of 3-4 weeks, so you still get an update.

Chapter 16 marks the mid-point of the Underdark Saga. I decided to split it into two short updates, rather than a single massive one, to stall for time while I recover improve readability. Yeah. So today, we'll be looking at Chapter Sixteen A.

Once again, we open in media res...

"Adalon has agreed to your demands... ma'am," Imoen said, her voice echoing through the tall-ceilinged chamber in the alien tones of the drow language.

... then backtrack a little. Our heroes have followed Solausein to the city. (Remember that they told him to take point during the last chapter.) Solausein is pretty shell-shocked, since he just saw his entire unit die, so he just kinda... goes with the flow. Along the way, they try to pump him for information, and learn that Solausein is working for a social climber named Phaere.

For their own part, they told Solausein that his young matron wouldn't know them, that they'd been assigned by one of her people. Solausein didn't press them in any way to know who that person might have been. He seemed accustomed to lies, accustomed to knowing only a small part of anything he might be involved in.

Drow society really is defined by schemes and conspiracies, but "sullen disinterest" really isn't how you survive in that kind of culture. Get your head in the game, Sully.

Also, this is a horrible cover story. At least in the game, CHARNAME and company are pretending to be from a different city. Pretending to be actually from Ust Natha is a terrible idea, because at some point, someone's going to mention a local land mark.

Anyway, Phaere.

Solausein made the introductions (...) and it was obvious that the young drow woman was interested only in Imoen, who for her part seemed to be reveling in her position of contrived authority the same way she was reveling in her jet black skin.

Solausein obviously assumed the drow woman he introduced as Phaere knew who they all were — they were the advance party after all — so he went into no details. Phaere didn't seem too concerned with who was who and wanted only to know the outcome of the raid against the dragon.

Let's just take a moment to review the facts from Phaere's perspective, shall we?
1.) I sent twenty-one warriors to kill a dragon.
2.) Twenty warriors died and four came back.
3.) That's three too many.
4.) I have been warned that there are three people working for said dragon.
5.) The three extra warriors know each other, but nobody seems to know them.
6.) Their cover story has obvious holes in it.

So obviously, the only correct thing to do is to fire your trusted lieutenant and promote one of the three randos.

"Mistress, I—"
"Will close your stupid, ineffectual mouth," Phaere finished for him. Solausein stepped back one step and kept his eyes fixed on the ground.
"Jaenra," Phaere said, using Imoen's alias and addressing her directly. "I think I'm beginning to remember you now."
Imoen nodded curtly and offered a wry smile. Phaere stepped closer to her — very close — and said, "You will replace the ineffective Solausein in all his duties."
"Yes, mistress," Imoen answered.
"All his duties," the drow emphasized.
"Yes," Imoen answered, more slowly this time, looking the drow woman directly in the eyes, "Mistress Phaere."

More than anything, Phaere should know that she didn't actually offer a bargain to Adalon. That's something Imoen made up in the last chapter. But... nope. I know that Phaere is a tertiary antagonist at best, and I'm well aware that people make bad decisions when they have the befores (http://www.cracked.com/article_18798_6-words-that-need-to-be-invented-5Bcomic5D.html). But... good gods, this is Hugh Man (https://theinfosphere.org/Hugh_Man) territory.

Jaheira, Abdel and Solausein are excused at this point, while Imoen is told that Phaere needs to "talk" to her in private. We'll get to that, but first, the other three drow decide that it's time to get drunk.

"She can be ... difficult," Jaheira said, doing a good job of sounding familiar with the drow mistress.
Solausein took a deep draft of the strange beverage that Abdel thought smelled a little like beer and forced a smile.
"It is to be expected," he said. (...)
It was dark, lit sparsely with candles, and the menu consisted of things Abdel could never bring himself to eat. Live spiders ... he'd rather starve.

So I'm not a fan of the school of criticism that focuses on whether a work gets the trivia right. (Ask me what I think about Ready Player One.) I'm really trying to make this commentary more than just "Hey, 'member Minsc? WELL ATHANS DOESN'T." I certainly can't blame the author for not getting all the Forgotten Realms trivia right. There's just so much of it, and most is superfluous.
That said, spiders are sacred to the Queen of the Demonweb Pits. (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Lolth) A restaurant that serves live spiders as food would draw a reaction that... well... you know how Hindu "cow vigilantes" occasionally form lynch mobs? (http://time.com/4060906/dadri-lynching-beef-bisara-mohammad-akhlaq/) Imagine that, but with more divine intervention.

Solausein turns to be a bitter drunk, and he's taking his demotion very badly. One gets the impression that Phaere is a terrible boss on top of her winsome personality. Jaheira lends a sympathetic ear, hoping for some tactical data. Abdel almost blows their cover a few times, but eventually, the interrogation yields fruit.

Solausein nodded and said, "I failed my mistress."
"But to humiliate you like that," Abdel said, "I would have—"
"Tzvin!" Jaheira barked, using Abdel's drow alias.
Abdel worked at being appropriately chastised and looked away. (...)
Solausein didn't fail to notice the exchange. He looked at Abdel and said, "It is what men are here for, my friend. It is the natural order of things."
"Yes it is," Jaheira said.
Solausein took another long sip of his beverage, and so did Abdel.
"Speak," Jaheira prodded.
"The eggs," Solausein said. "You want the eggs."

Boom! Man, it's almost like publicly humiliating your trusted lieutenant is a bad idea, Phaere.

This would be silly enough, but... this chapter contains one of the novel's more, ah, famous scenes.

Phaere's bedchambers were rather different than anything Imoen would have expected. Of course she'd heard the tales and legends of the drow since she was just a little girl. Always it was about spiders and monsters and cruel tortures. (...)
Her actual experience of the drow was rather different. First of all, they were far from hideous and not the slightest bit malformed. In fact, Imoen found Phaere quite compelling.

Phaere has dressed down to a low-cut, backless robe, and Imoen spends some time appreciating the eye candy. There have been a few hints earlier, but this chapter confirms that Imoen is into women. We don't learn if she's lesbian or bisexual, but the way she's written makes me think it's supposed to be the former. For what it's worth, she never shows any interest in men, at least not on-page.

Imoen also discovers that she has a type, and the type is dark-skinned, with violet eyes and pointed ears. (I'll spare you the experience, but the ears get three lines.) Phaere, too, wants to get into Imoen's pants, and she's characteristically subtle about it.

"I've had a bath run for you," Phaere said, her voice low and intimate now. (..)
"Thank you, mistress," Imoen said, keeping her own voice low as well.
Phaere smiled and nodded toward the curtained room just as the last of the amphora-toting boys passed out of it and scurried off into the corridor beyond.
"Please ..." Phaere said politely. "Bathe, and we can talk." (...)
She'd been enjoying the ruse and would never have trouble admitting that she found the
drow attractive — she even found herself more attractive as a drow — but she'd still been rather nervous around Phaere. Now, though, all she could think about was the bath.

This was probably intended as a seduction tactic, but Imoen actually does need a bath. It's been a few weeks. She strips off her shredded and bloody clothes and slides into the warm, scented water.

Phaere sat down on a low marble bench lined with rich cushions. As she sat, she pulled from a concealed pocket in her robe a long, thin wand that seemed to be made from crushed gemstones.
Imoen slid into the tub and let the water wrap around her. She closed her eyes and let out a long, relieved breath.
"It's been a long time?" Phaere asked. Imoen opened her eyes and saw Phaere twirling the wand between two fingers.
"What is that?" Imoen asked.

... so, ahh, it took me a few readings to realise they were talking about a spellcasting wand, not the other kind. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitachi_Magic_Wand) I have no idea if this was intentional, but if it was... kudos. (That link goes to Wikipedia but maybe don't look at it if you're at work.)

Phaere explains that this wand shoots lightning. The other kind of wand can also do that, but if it does, that's a manufacturing defect. With Phaere's wand, it's intentional.

They make a little more small talk. The drow continues to be the worst conspirator south of Beregost.

Phaere stood slowly and stepped toward the bath. "I truly begin my ascent tomorrow," She said. "I mean to replace my mother."
Imoen said nothing, not even sure what Phaere meant.
"That information would be worth a lot to her," Phaere said. "I'd have to kill you if you sold it to her, though, so please don't."
Imoen opened her eyes and regarded Phaere calmly. "I know who my friends are," she said.
"Good," Phaere answered and let her robe slip to the ground. Imoen pulled in a short breath.

You met this woman ten minutes ago, after specifically being warned that strangers were coming to kill you. Why would you trust her with this information?!

Phaere slides into the tub with Imoen and continues to overshare.

"Do you know what a mythal is?" Phaere asked.
Imoen shook her head, her body suddenly tense.
"In a few days' time I’ll have one at my disposal, and all I have to do is march a few hundred of my mother's all-too-expendable soldiers through a gate into some surface-elf forest. (...) I'm getting the better end of the bargain. They have some secret weapon — some unsuspecting humans who carry some kind of curse that's supposed to help them. (...) The vampire even sent some chubby little human to help lure these others in or send them on their way through the gate for some reason. (...) I make this elf think the great drow invasion has finally come, and in all the chaos that follows, Bodhi and Irenicus do whatever it is they've set out to do. In exchange, I get power enough to ascend to the highest position in Ust Natha."

It's one thing to have a character who is bad at being secretive. It's quite another to have them be... this over the top. This is completely and utterly ridiculous. This isn't spliced together, and there's no input from Imoen; it's just page after page of Phaere spilling literally everything she knows. I'm guessing Imoen somehow rolled a natural 20 on every diplomacy check in the last hour?

When Phaere had mentioned Bodhi and Irenicus by name, another chill ran down her spine. When Phaere touched her, a sensation of an entirely different nature followed.

At least Imoen is getting some action. Unlike the Bodhi x Abdel scene, it's mercifully left offscreen.

The chapter still doesn't end at this point, but I'm going to end the update here. I figure We Need To Talk about This.

We freshen up, have a quick chat with Viconia, (https://s33.postimg.cc/tjxf98knj/r_HQq_D0_T.png) then go see Phaere.

https://i.postimg.cc/VvvTLbht/lKCl0VG.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/lKCl0VG)

There's something slightly odd about Phaere and Solaufein - specifically, the blue circle around their feet is always visible. Most NPCs don't work like that. Normally the circle only shows when your mouse is over them. It's weird.

:mad: PHAERE: It is good that you have come, Veldrin. Up until now I have only had the company of Solaufein, and his pathetic melancholy has nearly drained my patience.
:mad: PHAERE: So I shall be brief and send you on your way. You would like that, Solaufein, yes?
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Just spit it out, if you must.
:mad: PHAERE: Very well. The Matron Mothers have decided the deep gnomes, the svirfneblin, have not shown enough fear of the drow as of late.
:mad: PHAERE: So it is time to teach them a lesson. Mother Ardulace has volunteered you for this particular service.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: You... you want me to kill svirfneblin?! Gnomes?! Such a minor task, and I am to waste my time on it?! I have better things to do, woman!!
:mad: PHAERE: You have better things to do than to serve the Queen of the Demonweb Pits? Mother Lolth, herself?
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Bah! As if the Spider Queen would care what we do with the deep gnomes! Send Veldrin, if you're so interested! I'm sure <PRO_HESHE> can do it without me, I assure you!
:mad: PHAERE: No. You will go with Veldrin. Argue again and it shall be your tongue, Solaufein.
:mad: PHAERE: Approach the svirfneblin village in the great caverns and await a patrol. Slaughter them... and bring back proof of the deed. Return here in a few days.
:eek: AERIE: But... the svirfneblin aren't evil! They... they're just harmless gnomes! Why must we do this?!
:mad: PHAERE: An odd sentiment, for a drow. What would you propose? Mercy? How would that look to our true enemies? You shall do as I say without a further word.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: If this is what the Matron Mother decrees, then I have little choice. I will go, now. Veldrin, catch up quickly... I expect you there without delay.

Journal entry:
Inside the Drow City

Phaere has given us another task from the Matron Mother: we are to go to the north end of the caverns near the svirfneblin village and slaughter a patrol of deep gnomes to instill more fear in their people. Solaufein seems unwilling, preferring that I complete this job, but Phaere was adamant. I am to meet Solaufein near the village within a few days at most.

Aerie, you are the worst spy. Then again, Solaufein is edging ever closer to outright insubordination, so I guess she doesn't stand out too much.

I wonder if we can use this to our advantage...

Solaufein is waiting outside. (https://s33.postimg.cc/53f9es727/FBlp_Gh_G.png)

https://i.postimg.cc/gctQtNwH/tmrHUsK.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/tmrHUsK)

He is not happy with this assignment.

:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Finally, there you are. We shall wait here for the patrol to come to us. One will come soon, I expect, and then we can get this over with.
:roy: CHARNAME: I can handle this myself, Solaufein, if you would prefer to return to the city.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Hmmm. Perhaps I will take you up on your offer, then. Phaere enjoys making me dance, and I have no desire to comply. Are you sure you can accomplish this?
:roy: CHARNAME: Yes, of course.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Very well, I will go. Once the deed is done, take the helmet of the leader and return to the tavern in Ust Natha... I will meet you there. Do not fail, Veldrin.

Journal entry:
Inside the Drow City

I have convinced Solaufein to return to the city, leaving me to deal with the svirfneblin on my own. I am to go to the tavern in Ust Natha to meet Phaere after I am done, bringing with me the gnome patrol leader's helmet as proof of the deed.

You can only take this path if Solaufein trusts you. If he doesn't, you have to fight the gnomes. Fortunately, the drow likes Veldrin, so he heads back to Ust Natha and leaves the gnome patrol to us.

https://i.postimg.cc/SNX5BCCF/tDxMOjK.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/tDxMOjK)

I need your clothes, your boots and your motorcycle.

:smallsmile: UDSVIR08: Drow, od golver d'tanyon! Da sugden os tera!
:roy: CHARNAME: I'm sorry, but I don't understand your tongue.
:smallsmile: UDSVIR08: Ah... I had be thinking most drow knowing simple tongue of the stone. Let me be talking the tongue of dark ones, yes?
:smallsmile: UDSVIR08: We be greeting you, dark ones. And we be asking for your purpose this place for being. Respecting you the peace as we?
:roy: CHARNAME: Yes. I, ah... need you to give me your helmet, actually.
:smallsmile: UDSVIR08: My helmet part of uniform, is. Giving it up, I simply cannot be. Why be needing you helmet, dark one?
:roy: CHARNAME: I need it to prove to the Drow that I have killed your patrol... which I have no intention of actually doing.
:smallsmile: UDSVIR08: Most alarming, this is! Why would the dark ones be killing us? We be at peace, we is!
:roy: CHARNAME: They feel you don't fear them enough, and want to send a message to you and their enemies.
:smallsmile: UDSVIR08: We be fearing dark ones plenty! Always could they be all killing us, if they be wishing to! Grateful, we are, for your mercy!!
:roy: CHARNAME: I just need some proof for them that I have done as they bid. Can I have your helmet?
:smallsmile: UDSVIR08: My helmet? If it be saving my life, yes... here it be. We will be going, now, and telling deep lords that much bowing and scraping to dark ones is to be done, if war to be avoided is.

Journal entry:
Inside the Drow City

I have acquired the svirfneblin patrol leader's helmet peacefully... and the drow need never know the difference. All I need to do now is return to Phaere in the Ust Natha tavern before she grows impatient.

Helping the drow at all is pretty evil. Small rebellions like this should keep us away from the deep end of the alignment pool.

Let's check in with our commanding officers and inform them of our great triumph.

https://i.postimg.cc/sDt8sx4B/miAvdQP.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/miAvdQP)

At least you can earn a lot of EXP by playing along with the drow.

:mad: PHAERE: Ahhh... you return, and with a svirfneblin helmet, no less. Good. I am sure the gnomes are scrambling as we speak to provide a tribute to the Matron Mothers.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Hmph. Ah, yes, I am sure the gnomes were suitably impressed by our display of viciousness. No doubt they had no inkling we were capable of such a feat.
:mad: PHAERE: What is this? Are you losing your stomach for blood, Solaufein? The Spider Queen would be displeased to hear such, I would think.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: I save my wrath for the drow's true enemies. Lolth knows this, as does the Matron Mother of my own House.
:mad: PHAERE: It is not for you to decide, male! I shall have your bloody heart ripped from your chest on the altar if you continue to speak!
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: I call your bluff, arrogant one. Act and you risk war between your House and mine. How would Mother Ardulace see that, I wonder?
:mad: PHAERE: It is almost worth it to silence your impudent tongue! If a Handmaiden were to see you speak to me such, she would flay you open without a second thought!
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: You should be so lucky, Despana bitch.
:mad: PHAERE: Bah! I will listen to no more! Veldrin! Meet me within my private quarters in the Female Fighter Society tower. Within one hour, Veldrin... do *not* be late.
:roy: CHARNAME: Very well, I will be there.
:mad: PHAERE: Good. You, Solaufein, will wait until the Matron Mothers find another task to set you to. May it lead you to a gruesome death, worm.

Journal entry:
Inside the Drow City

Phaere has something else in store for me, commanding that I meet her in her private quarters within the female fighters' society tower.

This is probably entirely innocent.

We'll find out more... next time.

So this chapter contains another well-known infamous scene. Two things generally come up when people discuss this book: Barmaid Minsc and Lesbian Drow Sex. The charming lesbian subplot was mentioned in the very first revision (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/BaldursGate) of the TVTropes article, it comes up in forum discussions (https://www.reddit.com/r/baldursgate/comments/3cts61/do_yourselves_a_favorskip_baldurs_gate_novel/) all the time, reviewers tend to specifically call it out (https://lesliecourtney.com/2013/05/07/the-rogue-scholars-review-of-baldurs-gate-ii-shadows-of-amn-by-philip-athans/)... reader reaction to this little scene wasn't exactly positive. Having gone through the chapter now... the fact that Imoen sleeps with Phaere is maybe the third- or fourth-most offensive thing here. Let's take this one step at a time.

First of, we do have to discuss the encounter. I'm going to disagree with some of the above-mentioned critics. I don't think that there's an inherent problem with the decision to make Imoen a lesbian with an elf fetish. It's true that there's nothing like this in the games, but it doesn't contradict her established characterization either. The games avoid sexualizing Imoen, but a skilled author could've handled this in a tasteful way. I'll even go so far as to say that it's nice to get some non-villainous LGBT representation. Remember, this was 2001, which was awful. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dontaskdonttellcredible.jpg) We even get some vague foreshadowing that Imoen is attracted to women - too vague, perhaps, but it's still better than having her hit on Jaheira. The encounter with Phaere is consensual, to the extent that drow society is capable of having consent, and the act itself is left off-screen. It certainly isn't the worst sex scene I've ever seen in a fantasy novel. That honor still belongs to Orcs: First Blood (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orcs:_First_Blood), followed closely by The Fountainhead.
That said, and having given 2001!Athans way more credit than he deserves, I'm pretty sure that this really didn't need to be here. The scene is entirely gratuitous, and the narrative comes across as... a bit leering, at times. Don't get me wrong, it's not nearly as bad as some of the stuff out there. (Once again: Orcs.) That said... Athans rarely dwells on physical characteristics, but here, we get paragraph after paragraph about the smoothness of Phaere's black skin, the strength of her muscles, the vibrant violet of her eyes, the gentle points of her ears. (Nothing on how strong her nose is, though.)
I'm thinking the inclusion of the lesbian drow sex is probably an example of '90s Stuff. Remember that Phaere is straight in the game - she doesn't flirt with a female CHARNAME. This does contradict established characterisation. There seems to be an unstated assumption in this novel that of course the hot evil chick is going to be bi, and that deserves mention.

Speaking of Phaere: As questionable as the inclusion of this "romance" may be, Phaere's other actions are far more baffling. For some reason, she just tells her entire plan to some lady she just met, including the part where the gate is a trap - after specifically being told that three infiltrators were going to show up in the city. This sort of thing can maybe work in a comedy, but certainly not in a halfway serious book. Why would you, as an author, bother to include such a plot at all if you're just going to tell your heroes in the very next chapter? I mean, there's a little bit of tension left since Imoen hasn't told Abdel and Jaheira yet, but... this isn't good writing. As always in these stupid novels, the heroes succeed through luck and narrative fiat, not through any actual heroics. If you can't find a good way to do the "mastermind puppeteers the hero" thing, just don't do it. You don't actually have to have that kind of plot, you know?

Also, Solausein is a mopey little non-entity with a drinking problem, and he shares Phaere's problem of trusting strangers way too much. He has close to zero characterisation beyond that. This is a shame, because Solaufein is one of the more genuinely interesting NPCs in the game. The same holds for Phaere, who isn't nearly as brain-dead in the game. The interaction (and conflict!) between the two is one of the more interesting things about Ust Natha. But, sadly, this is business as usual for the book.

As for AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION... how about a sound-off about Ust Natha? This section of the game is quite unique in the series. This is one of the few parts of the main quest that you can actually fail, because there's a "back-door" solution to it (killing Adalon/killing all of Ust Natha). Baldur's Gate 1 has some non-standard game over scenarios (like if you lose Sarevok's diary), but this is the first time that we have the option of failing in a plot-important quest but continuing with the game. As a consequence, the game can put a lot more pressure on you than it normally would - the quests have strict time limits, the questgiver NPCs can die, that sort of thing. There are multiple ways to resolve this questline as well. (Though it doesn't change anything beyond the Underdark.) You can fail in a way that doesn't just lead to quickloading, which opens up some design space. And you are free to just say "screw it" and fight all of Ust Natha at once, even if that's less narratively satisfying.

So here's my question to you: Do you think this works? I definitely preferred the Ust Natha content to the other Underdark stuff. I remember that the strict time limits stressed me out a bit, since it's possible for you to maneuver yourself into a dead end, but I did enjoy the dark atmosphere. Baldur's Gate 2 is really good at making areas look and feel distinct, better than many games released today, and Ust Natha is a shining example of that. How did you feel about this?

hamishspence

2018-04-01, 07:53 AM

Regarding the whole "killing spiders is a death penalty crime" thing, not matching up to restaurants with spiders on the menu - not every author follows the "Spiders are absolutely protected" principle.

Salvatore emphasised it, but in 3.5, Drow of the Underdark (admittedly set in Greyhawk rather than Faerun) suggested that drow do sometimes eat spiders.

Spore

2018-04-01, 12:52 PM

So here's my question to you: Do you think this works? I definitely preferred the Ust Natha content to the other Underdark stuff. I remember that the strict time limits stressed me out a bit, since it's possible for you to maneuver yourself into a dead end, but I did enjoy the dark atmosphere. Baldur's Gate 2 is really good at making areas look and feel distinct, better than many games released today, and Ust Natha is a shining example of that. How did you feel about this?

It really works imho. My Paladin got to recover Adalon's eggs and leave the drow city almost without an incident. He was playing by the rules of the quest givers. But my more...chaotic characters? My blade tried to stay undercover. But I just had to take the chance to get with Phaere and after making her 'love' me, I go: "Aha, it was me, the surface dweller all along." because my bard is just a dramatic butthole. Similarly my CE sorcerer just went: "You want ME, the great Bhaalspawn to serve Drow? Screw this whole city. I'll make an omelette out of your eggs, and I want a side of silver dragon steak on my plate as well.

What has been your defining moment to RP your Abdel in Brynnlaw, I got with Ust Natha.

Honest Tiefling

2018-04-01, 07:10 PM

Regarding the whole "killing spiders is a death penalty crime" thing, not matching up to restaurants with spiders on the menu - not every author follows the "Spiders are absolutely protected" principle.

Maybe they were good aligned spiders? Isn't there an intelligent spider race, the Aranea (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aranea.htm)? I mean, if you are a spider with any intelligence score and don't worship Lolth, maybe you just get put on the menu.

Salvatore emphasised it, but in 3.5, Drow of the Underdark (admittedly set in Greyhawk rather than Faerun) suggested that drow do sometimes eat spiders.
In Athan's defense, it could have been something invented by Salvatore or in the transition to third edition. Where's a grognard when you need them?

And when it was mentioned there'd be a vampire/drow threesome with Imoen, I am immensely relived to find out it's because Imoen wants to tap dat ***. Maybe Bhaal was just the god of sexy? It does seem like that a lot of people start getting stupid around hot attractive Bhaalspawn they want to diddle. Maybe the reason that Jaheira is finally doing something competent because she leveled up enough to gain a better save vs. DAT BUTT.

And could they have left Abdel with the dragon!? I mean, the dragon is fine on their own, but what made anyone think bringing a man of such stupidity in was a good idea? Actually, why isn't he a lady? Does the second edition spell give a crap about what sex the subject is, like the third edition one?

It might be a Tangent, but I agree with Khay. It's pandering and obviously here as porn for the straight male audience, but it's really not that offensive other than being out of place in the wrong genre. So what if the books want to make Imoen a lesbian? She's not a romantic interest, so I have no issue with that. I'm pretty sure there are real-life elf fetishists, so why not one in setting? I think the only issue is that Imoen was presented as very young looking before. I think Phaere doesn't get that, but, uh...Still mildly creepy she's gone from 'young girl' to 'sure, I'll seduce the dangerous elf'.

Ust Natha was interesting, to say the least. I don't actually like the design of Baldur's Gate II (It looks like Planescape, and doesn't seem 'real' in a lot of cases), but that's one time where the odd design choices looked appropriate and fitting. I like the fact that love interests have difference reactions to sleeping with Phaere, but I did always wonder how Sully ever heard of Elistraee. I think it would have been inappropriate, given time pressures, to address that, but it did seem a little weird. It would have been more fun if say, the HALF ELF HARPER did something about it, but that's just probably me.

Kish

2018-04-01, 07:27 PM

No threesome. Necrophilia is all Abdel; Imoen does a drow but no vampires.

Imoen seems to be functionally James Bond here, with Phaere being a Bond girl. (You'll see more of what I mean next chapter.)

Honest Tiefling

2018-04-01, 07:34 PM

No threesome. Necrophilia is all Abdel; Imoen does a drow but no vampires.

I'm conflicted, should I be glad that no weird creepy necro threesome happens, or should I be upset that Athans fails to deliver the stupids? What am I saying, he'll do something soon enough.

Imoen seems to be functionally James Bond here, with Phaere being a Bond girl. (You'll see more of what I mean next chapter.)

I'm just happy that someone other than Abdel's trouser titan is being socially competent.

Khay

2018-04-02, 12:00 PM

I'm conflicted, should I be glad that no weird creepy necro threesome happens, or should I be upset that Athans fails to deliver the stupids? What am I saying, he'll do something soon enough.

Well, Chapter Nineteen does have vampire masturbation.

Honest Tiefling

2018-04-02, 05:46 PM

Well, Chapter Nineteen does have vampire masturbation.

Well, that pretty much answers the question. Did no one edit this book? I really want to know how we went from Baldur's Gate, which is pretty PG-13, into full blown necro masturbation.

Keltest

2018-04-02, 08:48 PM

Well, that pretty much answers the question. Did no one edit this book? I really want to know how we went from Baldur's Gate, which is pretty PG-13, into full blown necro masturbation.

Maybe it doesn't count if the person masturbating is dead?

I don't really want to think about this long enough to come up with a better answer.

Spore

2018-04-03, 04:26 AM

I feel comparing vampire sex to necrophilia is not fair though. Vampires in modern culture are often creatures of desire and sexuality, even before a certain book trilogy involving abuse, vampires and werewolves. Vampire masturbation though, sounds weird. I liked the interpretation White Wolf did with their vampire RPG. In there, sucking blood gives the vampire the same sensation as an extremely good intercourse. And according to the "high on Bhaalspawn" blood paragraphs earlier in the book, Athans subscribes to that idea. After all, vampires procreate through that ritual so it makes sense that it would be incredibly fun for the individual. Regular mortal sex is done in these books too. But it is really just a ruse to get close enough to a naked unarmed victim to suck their blood. Sex doesn't give vampires much if they are young or almost nothing if they are older.

But that brings me to another question: Is Baldur's Gate 2: Bhaal is dead! a better love story than Twilight? :smalleek:

Calemyr

2018-04-03, 10:52 AM

For my part, Ust Natha is one of my favorite and least favorite parts of the game. By which I mean that I don't like how, at this point in the story, you are just about stripped of agency in the story. You are blackmailed repeatedly and basically treated like a thug in the service of every drow with a chip on their shoulder (i.e. all of them). It really gets across (for me) a sense of frustrating powerlessness - I could (and likely ultimately will) butcher every last drow in this miserable city, but to get a job done for another power-player who strong-armed me into her service, I have to let all these... folk... walk all over me.

On the other hand, it's the Ust Natha storyline that gives most of the chaos in the Underdark context and meaning. Without House Despana's ritual, everything else in the Underdark is just random fodder for the visiting omnicidal murder hobo on their way from one massacre to the next.

And, of course, there's the subversive element of the arc. By playing an archetypal drow, you get put into situations where you can undermine them repeatedly. You can buy off their slaves and arm them, giving them their own opportunity to cut their way out of the darkness. You can spare the gnomes and spit on Ust Natha's bad name. You can aid enemies of the state, lie to the authorities, and subvert their perverted concept of justice. And, best of all, you can orchestrate a Xanatos Roulette that uses and abuses everybody's ambitions, hatreds, and suspicions to tear down the leadership of the city and leave their champions cursing your name with their dying breath as you cut your way through the entire city. Oh, and then brag to the elves on the other side of the gate that you most certainly did not "flee" the drow, only to have the soothsayers declare this to be emphatically true. It's an extremely satisfying payoff that only really works because of how frustrating and limited your options are for most of the chapter. It's one of the main reasons I like envisioning the main character as a "mastermind" type.

As for Imoen's bit in this chapter... It's at least refreshing that something happened that wasn't focused on Abdel. Since, as I've stated before, I envision the books as the "bard approved" version of the story, I also envision this moment as a point of frustration for her in her later years - getting tired of it being brought up repeatedly and having a rather negative opinion of bards because of it. "And before you ask, because everyone always does: No, Abdel did not have an affair with a vampire. No, I didn't have a tryst with a drow priestess. And, Minsc always kept his head shaved so I have no idea what color his hair would be if he ever had any. I... do like the image of him in a barmaid outfit, but the big guy wouldn't have cut it as anything but a bouncer. Too short an attention span to keep track of orders, you see..."

The Glyphstone

2018-04-03, 12:17 PM

I figure this thread is the most relevant place for this:

http://blog.beamdog.com/2018/04/april-1-fun-sword-coast-high.html

Baldur's Gate as a high school dating sim.

Honest Tiefling

2018-04-03, 12:20 PM

I feel comparing vampire sex to necrophilia is not fair though.

IT'S A CORPSE. I think the accusation is fair. I mean, that probably isn't even her own blood flowing in her veins. I don't know about you, but that's sorta an important detail in the nastiness.

Vampires in modern culture are often creatures of desire and sexuality, even before a certain book trilogy involving abuse, vampires and werewolves.

I think the first two 'modern' vampires (as opposed to the more zombie like incarnations of old) were Carmilla and Dracula. Both are creatures of sex and desire, but they are not creatures of sex and desire in a normal, healthy, sane way. It's all-consuming, destructive, evil, controlling and corrupting. Having a dead corpse trying to diddle someone is symbolic of the unnaturalness and utter wrongness nature of these desires. In literature, these relationships are not romantic, but utterly wrong.

Cazero

2018-04-03, 12:41 PM

IT'S A CORPSE.A corpse with free will and agency.
So while it's definitely not a thing for everyone, it doesn't carry the ethical wrongness you can find in regular necrophilia.

Honest Tiefling

2018-04-03, 12:48 PM

A corpse with free will and agency.
So while it's definitely not a thing for everyone, it doesn't carry the ethical wrongness you can find in regular necrophilia.

Well, maybe. If the vampire in question is a spawn, it has no free will. Vampires from third edition are always evil regardless of their former alignment, so they might NOT have free will much like how Durkon isn't the same being as Durkula.

But other then that, yes, the dead body is probably consenting in a fashion, but IT IS STILL DEEEEEAAAAD. I take it I'm in the minority in being creeped out by vampire sex.

Spore

2018-04-03, 04:55 PM

I take it I'm in the minority in being creeped out by vampire sex.

Have you SEEN modern D&D's variety on half-breeds? If it has vaguely humanoid features, there is a half-breed of it. Even stones (Earth Genasi), dragons (they don't even HAVE mammalian genitalia!) or shadow beings (...how?).

A Dhampir is a quite moderate idea comparatively.

Honest Tiefling

2018-04-03, 05:10 PM

A Dhampir is a quite moderate idea comparatively.

Yes, but in most of those cases, polymorph is involved. At least I sure hope it's involved in the case of the dragon, else...

Also Genasi aren't born from stones in older editions, but from humanoid elementals like the Azer/dwarf crossings. In 5e, only genies are mentioned. And somehow I find it better to bang a dude who can occasionally turn into fire then the one who has to drink some blood before being able to get down and dirty and is a dead body being piloted by evil forces.

Khay

2018-04-07, 08:16 AM

For my part, Ust Natha is one of my favorite and least favorite parts of the game.

You kinda hit the nail on the head there. That's exactly how I feel about this section too. You really get shoved around a lot, and the NPCs keep interrupting you with non-optional sidequests. At least the end of this arc is nice and cathartic.

I figure this thread is the most relevant place for this:

http://blog.beamdog.com/2018/04/april-1-fun-sword-coast-high.html

Baldur's Gate as a high school dating sim.

Hah! You know, I would've played it. It's hardly the biggest desecration of the lore we've seen so far. :smallbiggrin:

As I mentioned last time, I had to chop Chapter Sixteen into two updates. Chapter 16a introduced the world of literature to the "horny idiot" villain archetype; Chapter Sixteen B will deal with the fallout of... that. This will be another short update, but don't worry - we'll go back to the good old sprawling and barely coherent posts after this.

Note that the game section earns a content warning for discussion of non-consensual sex.

Last time, Phaere slept with Imoen and told her all about her evil plan for some reason. Today, we'll see what the rest of the party has been doing.

Abdel was worried about Imoen. She was surprisigly good at pretending to be someone she wasn't, but Abdel realized that every second they spent in Ust Natha brought them closer to being found out. (...)
Jaheira was getting better at the ruse herself, but she wasn't as good as Imoen. Abdel watched her carefully and took some consolation in the fact that Solausein took his odd behavior to be simple jealousy.

Solausein, not to be outdone by Phaere, has also decided to betray the evil plans to the odd strangers he met five minutes ago.

"Perfect," Jaheira said, standing in front of the row of enormous eggs.
Solausein, maybe a little drunk judging by the sway in his walk, grinned openly at his new mistress's reaction. "As I promised."
"A fortune," Abdel offered, still reluctant to play along.
"Enough to establish my own—" Jaheira said, stopping when she realized the guards could overhear.
Solausein picked up on that right away and barked, "You men, load these things onto the cart outside, and be quick about it — quick but careful. The mistress has need of the eggs elsewhere."

Are you familiar with the Evil Overlord List? (http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html) This was a big thing on the Internet, a decade and a half ago. Among other things, the list advises the following:

77. If I have a fit of temporary insanity and decide to give the hero the chance to reject a job as my trusted lieutentant, I will retain enough sanity to wait until my current trusted lieutenant is out of earshot before making the offer.

This is exactly why. Phaere sent Solausein to assault Adalon for no obvious reason, then publically humiliated him and demoted him when the inevitable happened to his troops, just to make sure he's nice and angry. She goes above and beyond, though, by failing to actually tell the egg guards that Solausein has been fired. It's like she's trying to sabotage her own scheme. At this point, she qualifies as being Chaotic Good purely by accident.

The House Despana guards load the eggs into a cart, then leave. There are no horses in the Underdark, but Solausein brought a scaly friend. And a fleshy friend, too:

The lizard seemed to make a good enough pack animal. It was surefooted in the cavern terrain and strong enough to pull heavy loads. Abdel judged it to be as
strong as a team of three, maybe four horses.
"We should be going, mistress," Abdel prodded. Jaheira turned and said, "Indeed, we
need to—"
"They're being moved?" an all-too-familiar voice sounded in the empty room. Abdel, Jaheira, and Solausein turned simultaneously, and Abdel's head spun at the sight of Yoshimo, flanked by two unhappy-looking drow guards, strolling casually into the room. "I was hoping to see these great dragon eggs for myself."

Jaheira's reaction to this is "uh," which is also my own reaction. Yoshimo fails to recognise Abdel or Jaheira, thanks to the illusion, but Jaheira recognises him.

This man is known to us," Jaheira said to Solausein, and Abdel felt a short wave of panic wash over him. Jaheira had met Yoshimo in Irenicus's prison but didn't know the rest of it. She didn't know what Abdel knew. "He's of use to me," Jaheira continued. "Dismiss the guards."
She turned her back on Yoshimo, and Solausein, without hesitation, said, "You heard the mistress. We'll take it from here."

I've previously mentioned that Athans occasionally delivers payoffs for plots he forgot to set up. This, I think, is an example of that. Yoshimo vanished from the plot back in Chapter Four, and he isn't mentioned again until Chapter Fifteen. Abdel doesn't really know anything. This might refer to the fact that Yoshimo was associated with Gaelan Bayle, who was associated with Bodhi? I don't know.

This is about to become a moot point, though:

"I must beg your pardon, my black-skinned friend," Yoshimo said, "but I am unfamiliar with the tongue of your underground city."
Abdel felt a tingling feeling shudder through his whole body and was surprised — even a little disappointed — by his nervousness.
"Abdel?" Yoshimo asked, quietly, tentatively. Solausein said something Abdel didn't understand, and Abdel suddenly realized the feeling wasn't nerves. He wasn't a dark elf any more.

Of all the moments for that stupid spell to fail... I feel like Adalon didn't think this through, if the spell ends this quickly.

Things are about to become much more exciting, but let's check back in with Imoen first.

She wore a luxurious spidersilk robe borrowed from Phaere's extensive closet, and scared as she was, she felt better than she had in—how long? Days? Tendays even? She was clean; they had eaten, relaxed, and grown intimate in a way Imoen was never afforded in the monastery-fortress of Candlekeep.

I imagine the lesbian dating pool in Candlekeep is pretty shallow, yeah. This implies that Imoen just lost her virginity to Phaere, which does not make me feel better about the inclusion of the encounter. (It's possible that Imoen is not a virgin if we assume that she's bisexual and simply never had the opportunity to sleep with a woman before, but there's no evidence for this in the text.)

Imoen slips out of the bed and sneaks over to the pile of discarded clothes, pocketing Phaere's lightning wand. Phaere wakes up, but is too sleepy to realise what's happening. Imoen shushes her.

"Well," Phaere said, apparently understanding what Imoen was trying to say. "I'll leave you to it."
Imoen nodded, and the dark elf paused briefly, maintaining a long, comfortable eye contact Imoen didn't release. Phaere finally turned and slipped back to the darkness of the bedchamber.
Imoen's skin crawled, and she was surprised and ashamed of the sensation... until she realized that her beautiful black skin was no more.

This spell is quite flimsy. If Phaere had waited until the second or third date... but luck and narrative fiat are always on the side of Team Abdel.

Speaking of Abdel, let's see how the other half of the party is dealing with the loss of their disguise:

Abdel punched Solausein in the face so hard the drow's nose shattered in a spray of blood. He went down fast and hard.
"It is you!" Yoshimo exclaimed. He seemed legitimately happy to see Abdel and Jaheira. "My friends, am I happy to have found you!"
"Save it, Yoshimo," Jaheira said, surprising Abdel, who was rubbing bruised knuckles. Solausein didn't stir. "What are you doing here of all places?"
"Why, looking for you, of course," the Kozakuran replied.

It's pretty anticlimactic.

Abdel points his sword at Yoshimo, accusing him of working for Irenicus and demanding an explanation of what he's doing here. Yoshimo dodges the question, saying that they should worry about escape first, and Abdel immediately drops the topic.

"I can get you straight to the surface through a most impressive magical gate."
"We're not going to the surface," Abdel said, glancing at Jaheira with a look of resignation.
"We have to give a dragon back its eggs first," Jaheira said. (...)
"We came with another woman—a human disguised as a dark elf," said Abdel.
"Ah ..." Yoshimo said. "She's with Phaere."
"Still?" Jaheira asked, though she didn't expect an answer. (...)
Abdel smiled, looked at Yoshimo, and said, "Lead the way."

And thus, the chapter ends. Will the scheme succeed after all? Can Abdel's incompetence overcome Phaere's incompetence? Will we finally learn what the hell Yoshimo's characterization is supposed to be? We will see... in Chapter Seventeen.

Last time, Phaere gave Solaufein some "time off." There's always been tension between the two, which quickly escalated to the point where Solaufein was actively defying her. Phaere also asked us to meet her in her private quarters. Today, we find out why.

https://s33.postimg.cc/rydk3s0i7/p_TCBvh_P.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/pTCBvhP)

See? I was right about it being innocent. Murder is how drow say "hello."

:mad: PHAERE: You are lucky that my mood is improved, <PRO_MALEFEMALE>. I was pondering having you tortured for my amusement, but the whim has passed.
:mad: PHAERE: You needn't look so nervous, fool. If I desired you for intimate matters, you'd be naked and sweating already. No, I need you for something else.
:mad: PHAERE: You are aware of my relationship with Solaufein, yes? You do not need to stare at me blankly. Our animosity is open and obvious.
:mad: PHAERE: His insolence is beyond all endurance. I cannot tolerate it further without risking my position in Lolth's heirarchy.
:mad: PHAERE: But I also cannot take action that would be traced back to myself or my House without risking war. So you shall take action for me. You will kill Solaufein.
:roy: CHARNAME: What would be my reward for this task?
:mad: PHAERE: Your reward is continued existence and my continued favor. You will do this because I command it... or you shall suffer uspeakable torments.
:mad: PHAERE: We are drow, and the drow show no mercy. My opportunity is nearly upon me, and I will not be distracted by a gnat at my back.
:mad: PHAERE: Solaufein has been given time off from his regular duties... you will find him in his quarters in the Male Fighter's Society, sulking as is his wont.
:mad: PHAERE: He will not be expecting you... but nor will he suspect your true intentions, I imagine. He will greet you, and then you will kill him.
:mad: PHAERE: Those of my House would be the first questioned for his death... but you, without allies of any House, can get away with his murder.
:mad: PHAERE: Once you are done, take his... hmmm... take his piwawfi cloak and bring it back to me here. It shall make an excellent trophy.
:mad: PHAERE: That is all. Do you understand what I ask of you, Veldrin? Telling anyone will bring death down upon yourself. I shall keep your secret if you keep mine.
:roy: CHARNAME: I understand... and I look forward to killing that arrogant bastard.
:mad: PHAERE: It is good to see a drow <PRO_MALEFEMALE> with a commendable lust for power. Continue this attitude, Veldrin, and things in Ust Natha will prove favorable for you.
:mad: PHAERE: Go, then. You have three days to hunt down the fool and return with his cloak. Do not fail me, Veldrin.
:miko: JAHEIRA: Despite what she says, <CHARNAME>, we may be able to use this situation to our advantage. Perhaps there is no need to kill Solaufein. Consider this, at least.

Journal entry:
Inside the Drow City

Phaere demands that I hunt down Solaufein and kill him. He will be within his quarters in the Male Fighter's Society, and once the deed is done I am to return to Phaere's quarters with his piwawfi cloak.

This honestly was a long time coming. Solaufein is edging ever closer to outright insubordination, and he's been on the radar of the handmaidens of Lolth before. That's not a recipe for a long life in drow society.

(Jaheira is still thinking about friends lost. (https://s33.postimg.cc/g99kfth9b/w_NPc_CPd.png))

https://s33.postimg.cc/71hbz4hwv/p0evg_Ax.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/p0evgAx)

Solaufein is guarded but not immediately hostile, which is usually a death sentence in drow society. As Jaheira hinted, this presents an opportunity. Let's see if we can make an ally in Ust Natha.

:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Veldrin?! What are you doing here? The Matron Mothers have not given me another task so soon, have they? I was given leave to rest!
:roy: CHARNAME: Phaere sent me to kill you, Solaufein, but I'm not going to do it.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: I see. It was only a matter of time before she acted, I suppose. No alliance of mine to any House could prevent the unseen dagger from plunging into my back.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Phaere and I were... lovers once. Mother Ardulace felt Phaere cared for me in a most un-drow-like fashion and had her taken by the Handmaidens.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: They tortured her with tentacle rods... tortures I can only shudder at the thought of. When they were done all that remained of Phaere was her ambition.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: And I... I remained only as a constant reminder of her weakness. (sigh) I have been expecting this for a long time.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: So, then. If you are not going to kill me, what do you propose that we do?
:roy: CHARNAME: You can join with us, Solaufein... and leave this place.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Join with you? Leave? To where, Ched Nasad? No... I can see that you do not mean that place. In fact... in fact, you are not from that place, are you?
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: You are not drow. I should have known sooner, I think... Who are you, then? Why have you masqueraded yourself as drow?
:roy: CHARNAME: My name is <CHARNAME>, and I'm a surface <PRO_RACE>. I have been sent here to retrieve the stolen eggs of the silver dragon.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: I know a little of this. The Matron Mothers claim the great silver dragon guarding the entrances to the surface elves' temple would no longer be a hindrance.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: In fact, it was Mother Ardulace that made that announcement. I believe she would hold the eggs you seek... but I do not know where such things would be kept.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: A... surface <PRO_RACE>? It explains much, including the mercy you show me now. No drow would do such, I suspect, and I shall not betray you, <CHARNAME>.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: I cannot return to Ust Natha without endangering you... and myself. Since you are from the surface, I will tell you something I would tell no other...
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: The Spider Queen holds no sway over my heart. I worship Silverhair, Eilistraee, and like her I believe that my people have strayed from the path.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: I will remain in the shadows, and seek out others like me. There must be more... I am sure of it. Perhaps my people can yet be saved from themselves.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Thank you, <CHARNAME>... for your mercy. Perhaps one day I will stand on the surface and see the moon of my Eilistraee... Until then, farewell.

Journal entry:
Inside the Drow City

I have talked Solaufein into giving me his piwawfi cloak. With luck, he will not betray me and Phaere will never know the difference. It doesn't seem like he will... from the sounds of it, Solaufein is unlike other drow, and actually expressed disgust with their ways. Perhaps he and I shall meet again.

Lady Eilistraee (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Eilistraee) is the only non-evil member of the Drow pantheon. Lolth, obviously, forbids worship of her (and indeed every other god.) She was dead for a while, though I think that hasn't happened yet.

It may seem foolish to trust Solaufein, but if he worships Lady Silverhair, he's almost certainly Chaotic Good. Also, he has very little incentive to rat us out to the handmaidens, because he'd be rewarded as a traitor deserves (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RewardedAsATraitorDeserves), because drow society sucks a lot.

We take his fancy cloak back to Phaere. It's interesting that she keeps asking for clothes, not (say) a head, which would be harder to fake, but... so it goes.

https://s33.postimg.cc/sb4y9z5xb/k_LRJMJy.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/kLRJMJy)

Love is literally outlawed in drow society. I don't even know how to comment on that.

:mad: PHAERE: Ah, I see you carrying his piwawfi, my darling Veldrin. He... Solaufein is dead, yes? Yes... of course, he... he is dead.
:mad: PHAERE: Here... give it to me.
:mad: PHAERE: "All love is foolish." You have done well, Veldrin... you have earned a place of honor in this House by serving me well. This shall not stop, naturally.
:mad: PHAERE: First... I will speak to you alone, Veldrin.

If your CHARNAME is male, Phaere then takes you to her personal quarters. This is where the content warning comes in. Last chance to stop.

https://s33.postimg.cc/vuqvzsgcv/F4_WL2ix.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/F4WL2ix)

Drow society is, in many ways, a funhouse mirror of certain sexist societies. This extends to, well, rape culture. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture)

:mad: PHAERE: I find you useful, Veldrin. You are a strong and powerful male... worthy of my bed. You shall remain here for a time and please me... Come.
:roy: CHARNAME: Is this really necessary?
:mad: PHAERE: Of course it is necessary, fool. The fact that I command it makes it necessary. Remove your armor and come here, already.
:roy: CHARNAME: No, I do not wish this.
:mad: PHAERE: Your wishes do not come into this, foolish Veldrin. Refuse me again and you shall pay the ultimate price, do you understand? Now... come *here*.
:roy: CHARNAME: I cannot. I, ah, belong to another.
:mad: PHAERE: What?! Who?
:roy: CHARNAME: It... it's someone you don't know...
:mad: PHAERE: Someone I... ah. From Ched Nasad. A Handmaiden has collared you, yes? I am almost tempted to break the ward, but I have no interest in a battle at the moment.
:mad: PHAERE: A pity. I now see why you fled from Ched Nasad. Soon, dear Veldrin, I shall break your collar and free you from her grasp... then we can do as I wish.
:mad: PHAERE: But I have no time for such a thing, now. I shall have to find another male to satisfy me later, when I have the time... for now, there is more for you to do.
:mad: PHAERE: It is time to introduce you to the Matron Mother of House Despana, Veldrin. Mother Ardulace is anxious to see the <PRO_MALEFEMALE> who has done so much for Ust Natha.
:mad: PHAERE: You will go to the temple and meet myself and Mother Ardulace there. Do not delay, Veldrin... Mother Ardulace wishes to speak with you immediately.

Journal entry:
Inside the Drow City

I have performed more than a few tasks for the drow, and have instilled enough trust that I am now to meet Matron Mother Ardulace of House Despana personally. In drow terms, this means that I have gained the favor of this house... and that can only help me get ever closer to what I seek. I am to meet Phaere, the Matron's daughter, at the Temple of Lolth without much delay.

I called this out when it happened in the book, so I'm going to call it out here as well. Phaere does not take "no" for an answer. She'll initially assume you're just playing hard to get, but if you press her on this, she'll turn hostile and you'll fail the quest line. If you don't have the option to refuse, then you're not giving consent, so this is a rape scene.
It isn't explicit, of course - if you agree to go along, all that happens is a fade to black, followed by the "resting at an inn" animation. If you are in a romantic relationship with a party member, you are then treated to some really vile victim-blaming from Jaheira (https://i.imgur.com/ZCk4RxJ.png) and Aerie (https://i.imgur.com/Sx2Vi51.png), so that's nice. (Viconia, knowing what Drow society is like, correctly blames Phaere. (https://s33.postimg.cc/9vkhcl78f/Hrw_Se_KE.png))
It's true that you can "get out" of this. With sufficiently high INT and/or CHA, you can claim you swore an oath to remain celibate, that you are impotent, or that you are affected by a curse. The excuse about your Chednasadian girlfriend always works. But it's kind of horrible that you have to give an excuse?

It can be difficult to distinguish between fiction being awful and fictional characters being awful. (Or a fictional society being awful, for that matter, because Phaere had to be beaten into complying with drow gender stereotypes.) Obviously, you can portray bad things without endorsing them. You kinda have to portray something to condemn it, in fact. I want to say that this is a commentary on rape culture, including the crap Aerie and Jaheira say, rather than just a straight (if gender-flipped) representation of it, but... I'm not sure. My teenage self certainly wasn't inspired to meditate on gender inequality.

Eh. I'm just going to link to the appropriate the TVTropes article (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DoubleStandardRapeFEmaleOnMale) and call it a day.

https://s33.postimg.cc/oerme0833/Gawc_BVj.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/GawcBVj)

The Tempel of Lolth is now open for business. It doesn't look inviting, but nothing in this city does. Phaere and Matron Mother Ardulace are waiting inside.

https://s33.postimg.cc/if3v9rn4f/ja_VRk_HK.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/jaVRkHK)

This place is just crawling with people who can and will cast True Seeing and Know Alignment at the slightest provocation. I reaaaaalllly hope Adalon remembered to cover these things when she designed her crazy-ass epic-level Final Boss Illusion.

:mad: PHAERE: Ah! Here you are! Matron... this is the <PRO_MALEFEMALE> that I spoke to you of, Veldrin.
:yuk: ARDULACE: I can see <PRO_HIMHER> well enough, fool girl. You think I am blind? Ehhh... I see nothing special about <PRO_HIMHER>. What fascinates you so?
:mad: PHAERE: Matron, <PRO_HESHE> is an excellent fighter... and <PRO_HESHE> is the one that rid House Despana of its... other... problem.
:yuk: ARDULACE: *This* is that one? Illithids, eye tyrants, gnomes... and the mighty Solaufein! Are you sure? To me <PRO_HESHE> looks scrawny, and there is... something... odd...
:mad: PHAERE: I am positive, matron, that <PRO_HESHE> could prove of great use to you.
:yuk: ARDULACE: Ehhh... perhaps. Let <PRO_HIMHER> prove it, then, if <PRO_HESHE> is to become so favored in the eyes of Despana.
:yuk: ARDULACE: You, <PRO_GIRLBOY>! You there... Veldrin, is it? Pay attention.
:yuk: ARDULACE: The eye tyrant you killed coming from their so-called city. It was not the right type. I told the girl, here, which type I required and that was not the one.
:mad: PHAERE: But, matron, I --
:yuk: ARDULACE: Silence, girl! I'll not swallow your lies! Speak again and I'll send you into the pits of Lolth... would you like to deal with the drider again so soon, girl?
:yuk: ARDULACE: Now, Veldrin... you have proven yourself as competent. This is good. House Despana needs competence, a rare commodity when one is surrounded by fools.
:yuk: ARDULACE: House Despana is about to embark on the path to greatness, Veldrin. You can tie yourself tightly to us. Mother Lolth approves of the successful.
:yuk: ARDULACE: But I require something rather rare to begin this path. You might acquire it for me. So I shall give you the task and see if you can earn Despana's favor.
:yuk: ARDULACE: I need the blood of one of the neighbour races, Veldrin. The noble races only, and blood from one of their most powerful members. A dangerous task.
:yuk: ARDULACE: Your first option is to acquire the blood of an Elder Orb, most powerful of the eye tyrants. Its blood or its eye. I bade the fool girl do this, but she failed.
:mad: PHAERE: The Spelljammer tyrant was supposed to be an elder, matron! I swear that is what the spies had reported! They must have exaggerated!
:yuk: ARDULACE: SILENCE!! You should have checked on it yourself, girl! Do you rely solely on this <PRO_MALEFEMALE> to be your strength and your wits?!
:mad: PHAERE: No, matron, I do not.
:yuk: ARDULACE: Enough! Should you go after the Elder Orb, you will no doubt find one in their tunnels in the southeastern portion of the main caverns.
:yuk: ARDULACE: Your other options are to gather blood from the Elder Brain of the Illithid or from a Prince of the Kuo-Toa. Either would be as difficult as the Elder Orb.
:yuk: ARDULACE: The Elder Brain is guarded in the Illithid city, through the southeast caverns. An old ruin of the Kuo-Toa lies in the western caverns, ruled by a mad Prince.
:yuk: ARDULACE: Go, then, Veldrin. Bring me the blood of one of these creatures. House Despana awaits your return... but do not tarry. This is my command.
:roy: CHARNAME: Very well, I will do my best.
:yuk: ARDULACE: Of course you will. Go, now, and begin your task.

Journal entry:
The Drow Summoning Ritual

Matron Ardulace has sent me to get the blood of one of the elder races that inhabit the Underdark with the drow. I either need to go the beholder tunnels in the southeast and kill an Elder Orb, go to the illithid city in the southeast and kill an Elder Brain or go to the Kuo-Toan ruins in the west and kill a Kuo-Toan Prince. Once I have the blood, I am to return to Ardulace forthwith.

Hm. I still can't see the point of this, but if a Matron Mother is involved, this probably isn't some two-bit intra-drow scheme.

We are essentially given a choice of three side-dungeons here. Kuo-Toa are relatively straightforward enemies, being individually weak but showing up in large parties with a good mix of fighters and spellcasters. Beholders and Illithids both require special tactics to defeat.

Of the three, the Illithid dungeon (http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/Walkthrough2/SoA/chapter-5/areas/mindflayer-dungeon.php) is easily the most interesting. This update is already running kinda long, though, so I went for the Beholders. Sorry.

(We are ambushed by another sidequest (https://i.imgur.com/deiJmmD.png) on our way out of town. This priestess tells us to go kill some Ghaunadaur worshippers, which we do (https://s33.postimg.cc/qklx7xj33/7_BJs9_DT.png). There is no reward, because drow are awful.)

https://s33.postimg.cc/amd7hswkv/u_Ua0yqq.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/uUa0yqq)

The entrance to the southern tunnels is off to, well, the south of Ust Natha.

https://s33.postimg.cc/kwfmh1u67/Fw_Zbyw_G.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/FwZbywG)

The Elder Orb is literally right there in the first room, which is almost impossibly convenient.

Beholders (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Beholder) are quite dangerous. Each of those eye-stalks you can see is capable of firing off an eye-beam, which basically means a Beholder gets to cast like five spells per round. There are things you can do, of course, but I like to treat this fight as just a DPS race. Buff up as much as possible, then kill the Elder Orb before it can tear your party apart.

https://s33.postimg.cc/irv9fz09b/iv7k_LB9.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/iv7kLB9)

Ew.

Now, we are technically done with the quest, and the rest of the dungeon is optional, but there's something interesting about Beholders:

https://s33.postimg.cc/k6wu4p927/HGGHl_Y9.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/HGGHlY9)

They are really easy to cheese.

See, Beholders don't actually have regular attacks. They have at-will ranged Cause Serious Wounds, Flesh to Stone, Slow, Domination and Imprisonment - but they can't actually deal physical damage. If you have a mind-shield effect like CHARNAME-Abdel's berserk rage, a Ring of Free Action and a Cloak of Mirroring (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Cloak_of_Mirroring), then the Beholders literally cannot harm that character. They just become big, floating EXP pinatas. (Or just use the Shield of Balduran, I dunno.) So we clear out the dungeon, finding some nice loot (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Sling_of_Arvoreen) in the process.

Let's check in with Ardulace before she gets too antsy...

... next time.

There isn't much to talk about here, given that this is just the second half of Chapter Sixteen. We've already discussed that Phaere is laughably bad at being an evil mastermind, and I don't really feel like discussing the sex thing again.

However, there is something I brushed off last time which deserves discussion: The worldbuilding. The plot in this book is painfully compressed, and the Ust Natha section illustrates this quite well.

I know I say this every time we move to a new location of any kind, but... just... look at the novel, then look at the game. Pick any one screenshot set in Ust Natha. (Perhaps this one (https://s33.postimg.cc/dt7r1gbvz/naqfm_Yc.png).) That one picture will have more character and tell you more about the place than all of Chapter Sixteen. The worldbuilding in the novels is just... anemic, and what little we get is both pointless and charmless. The Ust Natha of the games is a lot more interesting than the Ust Natha of the novel, partially because the book is a nice tasty nothing sandwich. (This actually makes commentary a bit difficult. There are only so many ways I can say "Well there isn't much here but I still hate Abdel.")

Let's just do a quick side-by-side comparison, shall we?

The game
The book

Solaufein is a skilled warrior-mage and one of the more independently-minded drow in Ust Natha. He has some alliances of his own, which is unusual for a male. In the past, he was romantically involved with Phaere - and it was a romantic involvement, not the stuff drow normally do. Both were punished heavily for daring to defy social norms, but Solaufein was never broken. He flees Ust Natha if you spare him, becoming a Chaotic Good rebel, yearning to throw off the reputation of his evil kin.
Solausein is Phaere's second-in-command. He fails to succeed in a suicide mission against Adalon, and Phaere demotes him. After he's demoted, he gets drunk and betrays Phaere to the first female drow he sees. He gets seventeen lines of dialogue before Abdel punches his face in. (Yes, I counted.)

Phaere is an ambitious drow, and daughter to Mother Ardulace of House Despana. In the past, she was romantically involved with Solaufein, and she was punished heavily for... well, being nice to him, basically. She schemes to become Matron instead of the Matron, using Veldrin as a pawn. (More on that in the next chapter.)
Phaere is an ambitious drow of some nondescript-but-powerful station. She's also a horny idiot, and probably the least competent evil mastermind in all of fiction.

Ardulace is a Matron Mother and head of House Despana. She's exactly as cold and aloof as her high station would imply. She made a deal with Irenicus and Bodhi, taking Adalon out of the picture (by stealing her eggs) and opening a path to the surface. She has a secret plan that'll insure victory over the surfacers. (More on that in the next chapter.)
Ardulace doesn't exist.

The city contains many minor NPCs, some of whom are named, some of whom are not. You can talk to the commoners as you could on any surface city, learning rumors. Notable locals include Imrae (favored of Lolth), several patrons of the Inn (sweet bonus lore) and some questgivers.
The city is populated with a few nameless warriors, including a mage or two.

At fourteen pages, Chapter Sixteen is the longest chapter in this book. (Chapter Four and Chapter Eleven share the silver medal.) While that is quite long by the standards of this book, it's very little in the absolute sense. Nothing in this book ever has room to breathe or develop. The characters hurry from event to event, getting smacked with plot at irregular intervals. Their input is barely required, because everything that isn't a combat encounter is resolved through coincidence and narrative fiat. All the characters end up flat and underdeveloped simply because there's no room to give character development to NPCs. It's like... well, it's like a high school D&D campaign, where you're trying to finish up a session before your lunch break ends. Just without the charm.

So, AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION, yeah? We've hit sort of a dry spell for topics here, but there's a choice in this chapter, so we can discuss that. Specifically, the side dungeons! How do you like to tackle them? The Illithid city is the most interesting one, in my opinion, but it's also the longest and most difficult choice of the three, and the only one where I've ever had trouble with the time limit. The Beholder cave is trivial if you're willing to use cheesy tactics (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Shield_of_Balduran). The Kuo-Toa ruins are the most straightforward of the three. (Also, you can complete the dungeons before starting the Ust Natha quest chain - you just have to remember to pocket the item. The Illithid city and the Kuo-Toa ruins change a little depending on whether or not you look like a drow.) How do you like to handle this?

Keltest

2018-04-07, 08:51 AM

Beholders have a special place in my heart for having the crap beaten out of them, so I always chose to go after them. The fact that I usually couldn't handle the illithids without breaking the time limit may or may not have contributed to that decision.

Kish

2018-04-07, 09:56 AM

I invariably go through all three before going to Ust Natha. Illithid are really vulnerable to being backstabbed by someone who psionics doesn't work on.

Guancyto

2018-04-07, 12:31 PM

Used to be that I'd do the Kuo-Toa dungeon and call it good (it has the best loots, and is also the easiest), but yeah, all three gets you lots of delicious XP, and if you do them before Ust Natha you aren't on a timer. (You do have to remember to not give the Matron Mother the items right away when you do that, because that quest opens up a bunch of sidequests as well that you'd otherwise miss.)

...also! You didn't mention it in the update, but one of those "I really dislike Aerie now that I'm older" details is that while Viconia knows what's up and Jaheira is upset, Aerie actually dumps you (her romance variable is set to 'failed and over') if you can't talk your way out of sex with Phaere. Something I didn't think about much back in the day but... yeah. Kind of horrifying now.

Spore

2018-04-07, 05:13 PM

I tackle the three dungeons as they come up on the way. If I am underlevelled I kill a few drow patrols for their good gear that crumbles in sunlight basically. (A friend of mine played only at night, with the items resting in a bag of holding during the day for the rest of SoA.)

Honest Tiefling

2018-04-08, 11:30 AM

...also! You didn't mention it in the update, but one of those "I really dislike Aerie now that I'm older" details is that while Viconia knows what's up and Jaheira is upset, Aerie actually dumps you (her romance variable is set to 'failed and over') if you can't talk your way out of sex with Phaere. Something I didn't think about much back in the day but... yeah. Kind of horrifying now.

...You just made me go from disliking Aerie to outright hating her. No wonder she keeps seeming cheerful while my sister is imprisoned, possibly tortured. Viconia got nothing on this stone cold woman.

As for the audience participation...I didn't know there was a timer. I tried to beat up the dungeons before the main quest because that's what you do. Sooooo...I guess it is a good thing my Bhaalspawn was always a little too eager for violence.

Calemyr

2018-04-08, 01:01 PM

Audience Participation: Unless I'm playing a flat-out vengeance driven character, I let them be lost and flail blindly in an unmapped alien domain, "accidentally" running afoul of the monster kingdoms in the Underdark. Since I usually go the Sahaugin route, the Illithid conquest in particular has some added weight to it, while the Sahaugin and Beholder conquests often involve a little PTSD regarding the Unseeing Eye and Rebel Prince quest. I also love to envision Phaere and Ardulace sharing confounded expressions as my character rifles through a bag of holding and pulls out bits of their bitterest rivals without much thought.

I totally abuse the Baator out of the Shield of Balduran, especially using lore-focused characters like Bards, as they frequently treat Baldur's artifacts with reverent awe and eagerly employ them when possible, especially Trilogy characters who found the Sword of Balduran in the ruins of a ship on a wolfwere infested isle and lifted the Cloak of Balduran from a safe in Baldur's Gate's seedy underground.

Spore

2018-04-08, 02:01 PM

I totally abuse the Baator out of the Shield of Balduran, especially using lore-focused characters like Bards.

I had hoped you say that you use the bard's innate lore score as a reason to roleplay abusing the system:

:smallamused: Oh no, these Beholders sound scary but if you find a way to reflect their beams they are just big ugly floating balls of eldritch fun!

Which is a thing I am desparately trying to get going in a P&P group where the DM allows me to know every intricate weakness of every standard monster so that a knowledge/bard character can go: "No, if you blindfold yourself and affix a lot of mirrors to your clothing this basilisk is totally harmless."

The arch villain should be a bog standard fighter with an army of goons. Why? Because he killed all the other incredibly powerful villains with esoteric plans to conquer the world.

:smallmad: Jebidus the Great? It appeared to me that his weakness involved being vulnerable to beheadings. Same as Mannimarco the Great actually. Would've thought it took more to kill a Lich than to dismember it and then crush the little vase he thinks he can live in.

Calemyr

2018-04-08, 05:54 PM

I had hoped you say that you use the bard's innate lore score as a reason to roleplay abusing the system:

:smallamused: Oh no, these Beholders sound scary but if you find a way to reflect their beams they are just big ugly floating balls of eldritch fun!

Which is a thing I am desparately trying to get going in a P&P group where the DM allows me to know every intricate weakness of every standard monster so that a knowledge/bard character can go: "No, if you blindfold yourself and affix a lot of mirrors to your clothing this basilisk is totally harmless."

The arch villain should be a bog standard fighter with an army of goons. Why? Because he killed all the other incredibly powerful villains with esoteric plans to conquer the world.

:smallmad: Jebidus the Great? It appeared to me that his weakness involved being vulnerable to beheadings. Same as Mannimarco the Great actually. Would've thought it took more to kill a Lich than to dismember it and then crush the little vase he thinks he can live in.

Heh. It varies. I let my characters have entirely too much control over their games. Abdel (my bard) likes any tactical advantage he can get, so he stockpiles tools like that, even if they're pretty niche in use, and employs them at any opportunity. My paladin, Char, idolizes warriors that can have that kind of impact in a world with wizards, so she collects anything with Baldur's name on it, though she doesn't like the strength loss on the shield and needs to be reminded she has it. Other characters like Sienna (my sorceress) and Ardgeihn (my kensai mage) dismiss it as a parlor trick and see little need to use such things when intelligent and enthusiastic application of raw power ends fights before they begin. So, yeah... I realize I think about this way too "in character". But that's what makes it fun for me.

In D&D, when I DM, the most dangerous enemies my players ever face are bards, largely because they're more privy to the secrets of the world than even wizards are and use that knowledge to devastating effect, as well as their talents for mass manipulation. For my own entertainment, I usually represented overt bardic performance using the song Twisted Nerve (aka "that whistling song from Kill Bill") played from my phone and reveled in the reactions my players give to it, a satisfying mixture of rage and terror as they realize the rest of the story arc is going to be a lot more complicated than they bargained for. I'd probably feel bad if they weren't also some of the most popular story arcs I put them through. Admittedly, though, the group was so determined to enjoy themselves I could have probably kept them entertained by reading the phone book - a realization that typically serves as a sufficient check to my ego.

Maryring

2018-04-13, 07:28 PM

The thing about Phaere's horrible horribleness and the resulting victim blaming is that I think the game tried to present it as an exploration of... well, of what it's like to be coerced into sex that you do not want. After all, there's three ways to show that you're not comfortable with this. The game didn't ask you if you wanted to have sex with the hot drow chick, it made it clear that this hot drow chick is actively coecing you into sex. I usually play female characters, so when I first went through this I didn't experience it, but when I replayed the game as a guy that scene left me feeling vaguely wrong. It's not a strong presentation, but I think that it, and the resulting reactions, are all very good for exploring sexual coercion and the damage it can do.

Well that and remind everyone that Aerie is the worst of the worst. Sure, have her act like an immature brat, but the game really dropped the ball by not having any of your more sensible party members call her out on this.

As for the three dungeons. I generally do all three before I go into the drow city. Because treasure, experience and because I always check every sidequest area once I've identified the main quest location simply so I can aviod it. I also really don't like fighting beholders. Either they're stupidly powerful with all those save or lose effects, or you equip the Shield of Balduran and beat on those XP pinatas.

Khay

2018-04-14, 11:49 AM

Some interesting discussion since the last update! If you're reading this from the index at some point in the future, I'd strongly encourage you to go back and look at the discussion too. This is what I like about this thread. :smallbiggrin:

The arch villain should be a bog standard fighter with an army of goons. Why? Because he killed all the other incredibly powerful villains with esoteric plans to conquer the world.

:smallmad: Jebidus the Great? It appeared to me that his weakness involved being vulnerable to beheadings. Same as Mannimarco the Great actually. Would've thought it took more to kill a Lich than to dismember it and then crush the little vase he thinks he can live in.

I actually quite like Sarevok as a villain for this reason. His whole thing is that he's at (or near) the theoretical peak of human ability in almost everything. He's smart, strong, fast and charismatic, so he doesn't have to rely on any one of those things. There's simply nothing he's bad at, and he doesn't have the big obvious psychological weak spots of certain lesser villains. Elfy McButtcape just tends to, ah, overshadow him a bit. (Though Sarevok would make for a very intersting Anti-Roy if we're setting up a fanfic Linear Guild v4.)

...also! You didn't mention it in the update, but one of those "I really dislike Aerie now that I'm older" details is that while Viconia knows what's up and Jaheira is upset, Aerie actually dumps you (her romance variable is set to 'failed and over') if you can't talk your way out of sex with Phaere. Something I didn't think about much back in the day but... yeah. Kind of horrifying now.

...You just made me go from disliking Aerie to outright hating her. No wonder she keeps seeming cheerful while my sister is imprisoned, possibly tortured. Viconia got nothing on this stone cold woman.

Oh god. I never actually realised that. This... is quite bad. That has to have been an intentional decision, right? She's had some terrible things happen in her past, but I guess she doesn't really realise that other people can suffer too.

Chapter Seventeen concludes our trip to scenic Ust Natha and puts a bow on the ridiculous conspiracy plot. I hope you've all enjoyed the stay!

Last time, Adalon's spell failed at a very inopportune moment, Abdel punched Solausein's lights out, and Yoshimo rejoined the party. They are alone for the moment, and they have recaptured Adalon's eggs, but they still need to get them out of the city somehow.

Phaere was more than a little unhappy. The young woman Jaenra had disappeared at some point during the night, and Phaere found that disrespectful. She had opened herself and her home more quickly and more completely to Jaenra than she'd ever done before, and though Phaere had a rather thick skin, she just couldn't help but take it personally ... and take it out on someone.
She slapped the mage across the face with a hard, practiced backhand that sent the drow man reeling. The sorcerer hit the marble tiles of the plaza, and a pouch of spell components he wore on his belt burst open, scattering bits of string, crystals, feathers, and live spiders all over the tiles. He looked up at Phaere in horror, fully expecting to be killed.

I'm confused about the timeline again. Jaheira and Abdel went out drinking with Solausein, he told them about the eggs, and they stole them along with the cart. That doesn't feel like it should take a whole night. But, apparently, it's the next day and Phaere has a serious case of the afters.

Phaere kicks the mage a few times, demanding to know whether the gate is ready. It is, and the man says as much. Phaere just feels like kicking something. I'm just going to quote the Evil Overlord List again: "45.) I will make sure I have a clear understanding of who is responsible for what in my organization. For example, if my general screws up I will not draw my weapon, point it at him, say "And here is the price for failure," then suddenly turn and kill some random underling."

Phaere is, ultimately, interrupted by a loud crash. This turns out to be Team Abdel:

The pack lizard was pulling an open cart onto which the silver dragon eggs were lashed. The cart was being driven by humans, their pale skin positively glowing in the ambient light of the plaza gate. One of them looked familiar—the big one, but how could he? (...) She counted two, plus the round-faced human Bodhi called out of the gate to... well, to apparently do what he was doing at this moment. The cart was headed for the gate.
Phaere waved a hand signal in the air that made the guards step back from the gate. Crossbows and hand crossbows were leveled at the cart, but the guards were all obedient enough to follow orders and not fire. Phaere smiled though she was still disappointed. It had begun.

Phaere doesn't even wonder how Abdel and Jaheira were able to retrieve the eggs. Did she... did she really just give everyone a "stand down" order ahead of time? Is that what happened?

So, yeah, all the workers leap out of the way of the cart and the guards don't draw their weapons. This is such an obvious trap that even Abdel notices. He is about to employ his tried-and-true strategy for dealing with traps - that is, describe them as traps while still walking into them - when Imoen shows up to save the day.

"We have no choice!" Yoshimo yelled over the clatter of the cart's wheels on the marble tiles. "It's the only way out!"
"It's a trap!" Abdel repeated.
"What isn't?" was Yoshimo's cryptic reply. "Trust me one time."
Abdel opened his mouth, intending to regale Yoshimo with the full list of reasons why he'd never trust the Kozakuran when a lithe, pale body leaped into the cart behind him.
"Imoen!" Jaheira gasped.
"Don't go through that gate!" Imoen shouted to Abdel, clutching his shoulder to steady herself on the bouncing cart. That was all Abdel had to hear. He pulled hard on the reins, and the lizard pulled up short.

The cart crashes to a stop, sending cargo and passengers tumbling. The drow watch, confused, as Imoen continues to yell exposition.

Phaere's heart sank, and she cursed herself silently when she saw the third human run across the roof of a granary at the edge of the gate plaza and jump into the speeding cart. It was Jaenra, and she was as pale as a human. She was human.
Phaere's mother had a list of criticisms of her. At the top of it was her weakness for a certain type of woman, a physical weakness that made her make fast, rash decisions based more on passion than cunning. Phaere had always liked to think that passion was as good a motivator as cunning. (...)
Jaenra, if that was really her name, produced from her robe—one of Phaere's robes—a long, thin, glittering...
"Oh gods, no," Phaere murmured. It was the wand. Had she really done it? Had she whispered the command word into Jaenra's ear? She had.

This is ridiculous. Is there anything Phaere didn't share during her night(?) with Imoen? Does Imoen know her credit card number and phone password? Phaere really should've listened to her mother.

Speaking of talking to your parents: Phaere clearly didn't consider it important to keep her weakness for women a secret. How does drow society feel about same-sex relationships, anyway? If it's supposed to be a reflection of real-world sexist societies, then I'd expect female homosexuality to be heavily punished (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_law#United_States), if not legally then socially. On the other hand, if drow society is meant to be salacious in a way that pleases a presumed straight male audience, then I'd expect it to be tolerated. In case you were wondering: Yes, this is impossible to Google.

Eh. Whichever it is, Phaere lifts her crossbow and points it at Imoen, but she can't bring herself to pull the trigger.

The girl didn't seem to see her, didn't know that Phaere was letting her live, was punishing herself by letting this human woman—who'd managed to manipulate her so well she could have been a drow after all— destroy the gate.
Phaere couldn't hear Jaenra actually say the command word, but a blue-white arc of lightning leaped out of the tip of the wand and met the swirling magic of the gate. The blue-violet gate energy puckered at the point the lightning struck it and coalesced into a churning storm cloud. (...)
The cart was gone in an instant, taking the humans and the dragon eggs with it. There was a heartbeat of silence and darkness in the plaza, then the gate exploded again.

The portal consumes itself. The resulting explosion destroys a big chunk of Ust Natha, instantly killing everyone in the plaza. Phaere's final thoughts are dedicated to Jaenra.

Last time, we recovered a Beholder's eye for some presumably nefarious purpose. Today, we learn what exactly this is all about.

On our way back to the city, we trigger another romance dialogue with Viconia, because I haven't managed to shut those down yet. I have been ignoring them, but this one deserves to be shown off:

https://s33.postimg.cc/69enztqjj/Qw_QVi3l.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/QwQVi3l)

To my knowledge, this is the only hint on why CHARNAME left Baldur's Gate in the pre-revisionist continuity. It still isn't much of a hint.

Let's inform Phaere of our success.

https://s33.postimg.cc/nzgckvbu7/l0e_LU38.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/l0eLU38)

Who's the best? Veldrin's the best.

:mad: PHAERE: You have the blood! You have done it!! Outstanding, Veldrin!
:yuk: ARDULACE: Ahhh... the Spider Queen smiles upon us. Our gamble does not go unwasted, daughter. Your champion has brought us the blood that we need!!
:mad: PHAERE: Praise Lolth! The ritual may finally be begun! Despana will rule Ust Natha without question as the pre-eminent House!
:yuk: ARDULACE: Indeed. But we must be cautious, daughter, ever cautious. The ritual may be disturbed before it is completed. The silver one may get desperate.
:mad: PHAERE: You are going to seal the city, matron?
:yuk: ARDULACE: Yes. We cannot be disturbed from the outside. I shall go, now, and begin the proper preparations. This shall be a glorious day, indeed!
:yuk: ARDULACE: Veldrin. You have done House Despana the greatest of services. You will be a <PRO_MALEFEMALE> without equal... riches and slaves shall be yours.
:yuk: ARDULACE: I shall see to it as soon as the ritual has been completed. Now is the time for you to rest, strong one... there is nothing more for you to prove to me.
:mad: PHAERE: Well, I am not done with <PRO_HIMHER> just yet. Veldrin... come to my personal apartments. I expect you to meet me there within the hour... this is not a request.

Journal entry:
The Drow Summoning Ritual

I have returned with the blood, and Matron Ardulace was very pleased. She mentioned that she is about to start a ritual... and before doing so she was going to seal the city. I suppose that means that nobody can enter or leave. She also mentioned the 'silver one' being barred from entry... obviously she knows something of the silver dragon's eggs.
Matron Ardulace told me to relax, but Phaere ordered me to meet her within her apartments within an hour. Obviously she has something else in mind.

Well, we've earned the Matron Mother's favour, and she seems to know something about Adalon, but... sealing the city? I'm not sure I like where this is going. You actually can't leave the city once it's sealed - the area transition is simply gone.

Let's see what Phaere has in mind.

https://s33.postimg.cc/4ud3b44vz/Mz8v_Ppk.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/Mz8vPpk)

Schemes within schemes.

:mad: PHAERE: Veldrin? Good. I have a plan... a plan that will place me as the head of House Despana even as we take our place as the rightful ruling House of Ust Natha.
:mad: PHAERE: My plan includes you, Veldrin... without your timely arrival here none of this would have been possible. Do as I say and your rewards will be unimaginable.
:mad: PHAERE: Refuse and... well, why would you refuse? You have everything to gain, Veldrin. Everything.
:mad: PHAERE: In order for this plan to be successful, however, you must betray the Matron Mother. Are you willing to do this? Think carefully on your answer.
:roy: CHARNAME: I have no qualms about betraying the Matron Mother.
:mad: PHAERE: Good. Then you may aid me in my plan and be rewarded accordingly once I am the new Matron Mother.
:mad: PHAERE: You heard matron speak of the ritual? Matron will summon a demon of terrible power, Veldrin... one to aid the drow in our attack upon the surface elves.
:miko: JAHEIRA: So... a war? Open battle between the Drow and the surface has not occurred in... eons. With a greater demon to back them... I truly wonder why Irenicus would do this.
:mad: PHAERE: The blood is a component in this ritual, used to draw the demon's attention and bring him before us.
:mad: PHAERE: But, most gloriously, House Despana has acquired the eggs of a silver dragon. The one guarding the route to the surface that we drow descended from so long ago.
:mad: PHAERE: Holding these eggs hostage keeps the silver dragon from interfering. Even better, Matron plans to use them as an offering to the demon to enlist its aid.
:mad: PHAERE: Indeed, what demon could refuse? House Despana will have opened the way for the war and summoned its most powerful warrior. We shall become pre-eminent.
:mad: PHAERE: But there is no rule that states Ardulace must still be Matron Mother of such a powerful House.
:mad: PHAERE: Go to the treasury, Veldrin... steal the dragon's eggs and replace them with the convincing fakes that I have had made. You will then bring the real eggs to me.
:mad: PHAERE: Matron will offer the fake eggs to the demon and be killed. Then I shall offer him the real eggs. The ritual will be completed and I shall be Matron Mother.
:mad: PHAERE: Here... here is the key to the treasury room and the fake eggs. Take them. Return with the real eggs before the ritual is ready to begin.
:mad: PHAERE: I give you one warning... the guards will try and stop you in the treasury, if they see you. Kill them only if you must. Use stealth, Veldrin... now go.

Journal entry:
The Drow Summoning Ritual

Phaere has told me of Ardulace's plan in its entirety. The drow intend to invade the surface... to what end, I don't know. But Matron Ardulace's ritual is going to summon a great demon to aid the drow. The dragon eggs will be sacrificed to the demon in return for its service, and this will place House Despana in great favor with Lolth.
Phaere intends to betray Matron Ardulace, and has coerced me into helping her. She wants me to go to the Despana treasury (in Lolth's temple) and replace the silver dragon's eggs with fake eggs that Phaere has had made. Then when Ardulace offers the dragon the fake eggs, Phaere can step in with the real ones.
I must be careful if I go to the treasury... killing the guards, if it is done, must be done discreetly if at all. And even once I get the eggs, the city has been sealed by Matron Ardulace... there is no escaping. I must continue to play along... for now.

So... a demon, hm? This is starting to make a little more sense. If they hand over the eggs, then Adalon will be free to act (and incredibly angry), but if the demon is sufficiently powerful, it may be a match for the Silver. At the very least they'll be able to break through the line.

With the treasury key, we finally have access to the room where the eggs are being kept. We still have to find a way to get them out of the city, but... one step at a time.

There are many different ways this quest can go, depending on how you handled the Underdark up to this point. We'll be showing off the optimal path first, then summarize the other branches at the end.

In this timeline, we encounter an old friend on our way to the temple:

https://s33.postimg.cc/fh6wgjkr3/TALOQ4_M.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/TALOQ4M)

Solaufein! I did not expect to see you back in Ust Natha.

:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Veldrin! Excellent, I have found you. I have been watching you for some time, now, here in the city.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: I do not know your purpose, or if you will listen to me. But I have something to offer... something to give that treacherous wench, Phaere, what she deserves.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: I followed her and saw that she had duplicates of the dragon's eggs made... and I have surmised her plan. I have had a second copy made.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Phaere had her copies marked so she would recognize them, but these have no such mark. They will fool her if you give them to her instead of the real eggs.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Will you take them, Veldrin? Will you take them and give them to her?
:roy: CHARNAME: I will. Thank you, Solaufein.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Good. Whatever your purpose in this city, I don't care. But since you spared my life... well, I only wish I could be there to see the look on her face.
:cool: SOLAUFEIN: Fare you well, then... and good luck.

Journal entry:
The Drow Summoning Ritual

I have encountered Solaufein once again, who has apparently snuck back into the city to spy on Phaere. He thanked me for sparing him, and gave me another copy of the silver dragon eggs... these ones even Phaere will not be able to distinguish from the real ones.

This dialogue varies depending on how much Solaufein likes you. There's no variable that tracks what you actually told him. He likes us, but he doesn't like-like us, so he calls us "Veldrin" and claims to not know our plans, although we actually told him.

https://s33.postimg.cc/bktkkk7hb/Nk_Vi_E5l.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/NkViE5l)

Technically, we were supposed to sneak past those guards,I think? Oops.

We take the real eggs, place Phaere's fake eggs in the container...

https://s33.postimg.cc/44uayrz7j/fi_Jx_Os_I.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/fiJxOsI)

... and give Solaufein's fake eggs to Phaere.

:mad: PHAERE: Ahhhh, you are a marvel, my brilliant <PRO_MALEFEMALE>. You are, indeed. You have done as I asked and returned to me with the eggs. Where are they?
:roy: CHARNAME: Here you go. (give Solaufein's eggs)
:mad: PHAERE: So these are the silver dragon's eggs? Yes, they must be. Thank you, Veldrin... you have performed well.
:mad: PHAERE: I will go to the temple for the ritual... I expect you to be present for my victory. Go to the temple to meet me and do not delay, or I shall be most angry.

Journal entry:
The Drow Summoning Ritual

I gave Phaere the eggs that Solaufein had given me... and it seems that she has been fooled into thinking they are the real ones. The real eggs are still in my possession... and both Phaere and Matron Ardulace think they have the real eggs for the upcoming ritual.
Phaere has gone onwards to the Temple of Lolth and has commanded me to follow right away.

I think this technically qualifies as a triple-cross? We're betraying Ardulace to Phaere while simultaneously betraying Phaere to Adalon.

Speaking of Adalon, a small portal appears as soon as Phaere leaves:

https://s33.postimg.cc/3s2wslonj/S0tsld3.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/S0tsld3)

This is... odd. Why is a Lawful Evil critter (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Imp) working for Adalon? Does she have other agents in Ust Natha?

:roach: UDIMP: Ahhh, here am I, here am I. Wondering you who I am must you be, yes? Servant loyal to the silver one, forever! The silver one serve you, or her bidding do you, matters it does not.
:roach: UDIMP: Watching you, have I been. Most interesting a time, watching you. Tricky, tricky, tricky! Deceit upon deceit, the silver one's eggs safe from immediate harm, they be.
:roach: UDIMP: But get them out of city, you must! Closed magically, sealed, the city is. Dead the Matron Mother Ardulace first must be, if leave you wish to.
:roach: UDIMP: Once dead the Matron Mother be, fleeing with eggs you should. Much anger from priestesses there will come... minutes you have, maybe, before revealed your disguise is. Quickly leaving you must be.
:roach: UDIMP: Failing the silver one if you do... coming to you, she will. Liking that, you will not. Saving eggs you must.
:roach: UDIMP: To the Matron Mother's daughter, go you must... waiting in the temple for you she is. Of the essence, time is very! Wishing you luck, am I, manling...

Journal entry:
The Drow Summoning Ritual

An imp claiming to come from the Silver Dragon appeared, telling me that in order for me to be able to flee the city with the eggs, Matron Ardulace must first be killed. Doing so will only leave me minutes to get out of the city before my disguise is revealed by the angry Handmaidens of Lolth. No doubt my chance will come during the ritual... cutting it close, indeed.

We have a plan in place, so the imp is just here to cheer us along. Ardulace has to die, and once she's dead, we'll have minutes at most to make it out of Ust Natha. But no pressure.

We hurry back to the temple. The ritual is about to begin.

https://s33.postimg.cc/817murzmn/iicnbi_G.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/iicnbiG)

Oh, it'll be sweet... but not for the reasons you think. We are shuffled off into the ritual chamber, which has been locked until now.

https://s33.postimg.cc/69enzvnzj/QOOw_Tx_W.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/QOOwTxW)

Mother Ardulace begins casting. Notably, this is not a cutscene - you have control during the ritual. (https://s33.postimg.cc/r6aw4jtq7/Gzknlop.png) More on that later.

The eye-tyrant's blood successfully draws the attention of a major(ish) demon.

https://s33.postimg.cc/caccwyq1b/qp_Bm_G4_O.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/qpBmG4O)

You can tell he's powerful because he has ** NO INSIDE VOICE. **

:roach: UDDEMON: ** I HAVE COME... YOU HAVE WRESTED ME FROM MY PLANE, DARKLING... HAVE GOOD REASON, OR I SHALL TAKE MY PRICE IN DARKLING BLOOD... **
:yuk: ARDULACE: I have good reason, lord of the nether pits! I beseech you to aid the drow cause in the war against our hated surface cousins, to carve their pale flesh!
:roach: UDDEMON: ** AND WHAT MANNER OF TITHE WOULD YOU OFFER ME FOR SUCH A DEED, DARKLING? WHAT MANNER OF PAYMENT WARRANTS MY AID? **
:yuk: ARDULACE: I offer you *these*, lord of fiends... eggs of a silver dragon, a self-righteous creature of light. Yours to do with as you please, in return for your aid.
:roach: UDDEMON: ** FOOLISH DARKLING. DO YOU THINK I WOULD BE TAKEN IN BY SUCH A SIMPLISTIC DECEPTION? I? **
:yuk: ARDULACE: Wh-what do you mean, o dark lord? These... these are --
:roach: UDDEMON: ** THEY ARE FALSE, DARKLING. I WOULD TAKE SUCH A TITHE, WERE IT REAL, BUT NOW YOU HAVE OFFENDED ME. PERISH, LITTLE DARKLING WOMAN. **
:yuk: ARDULACE: NO! NO!! LOLTH PROTECT YOUR FAITHF --

https://s33.postimg.cc/44uayth7z/Fwj4bbm.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/Fwj4bbm)

Lolth does not protect her faithful, and Ardulace dies screaming.

Phaere tries her luck, too.

:roach: UDDEMON: ** HOW DARE YOU CALL ME FORTH!! HOW DARE YOU TEMPT ME WITH EGGS OF HATED SILVER, BUT THEN DECEIVE ME!! I AM TEMPTED TO RAZE THIS CITY TO ASHES!! **
:mad: PHAERE: Hold, demon! I am the daughter of the one who has summoned you... and I have the eggs that you seek. I offer them to you as the tithe!
:roach: UDDEMON: ** HAHAHAHA! A GREAT JOKE HAS BEEN PLAYED ON YOU, DAUGHTER-DARKLING. THE EGGS YOU HOLD ARE ALSO FALSE. **
:mad: PHAERE: What?! No, it's... Veldrin? VELDRIN?! WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO ME?!!
:roach: UDDEMON: ** THE BHAAL-CHILD HAS MURDERED YOU, DAUGHTER-DARKLING. MOST AMUSING, IT IS. HAHAHAHA! COME, NOW, AND BE MURDERED. **
:mad: PHAERE: NO!! I WILL DESTROY YOU, VELDRIN!! I WILL FIND YOU AND EAT YOUR BEATING HEART!! I WILL ---
:amused: VICONIA: You are weak and you shall pay the ultimate penalty amongst the drow... an ignoble death. <CHARNAME> has beaten you all.

She does not fare much better.

https://s33.postimg.cc/69enzwqkf/e6q5_LCE.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/e6q5LCE)

Boom! Headshot.

:roach: UDDEMON: ** NOW... IT SEEMS THERE ARE NO *ACTUAL* DRAGON EGGS TO BE HAD. A PITY. UNLESS THERE IS A BETTER OFFER, I SHALL DEPART. **
:roy: CHARNAME: Return to whence you came, demon... your summoners are dead.
:roach: UDDEMON: ** SO BE IT. MORTALS ARE EVER FOOLS. **

Journal entry:
The Drow Summoning Ritual

Both Phaere and Matron Mother Ardulace have been fooled into offering the demon fake silver dragon eggs... and the demon has finally vanished, finding the whole thing amusing. According to the imp, the seal on the city should be lifted... but I have only a couple of minutes to get out before my disguise is revealed!

This activates a timer. We have a few more minutes before the city goes on alert (and everyone in it turns hostile), but it's enough time to make it out. You can even check in with the vendors near the entrance if there's anything you want.

If you are interested, here are the alternate branches. Meanwhile, in a parallel universe...

There are several different paths this final confrontation can take. I think it's the most open-ended quest conclusion in the game, which is pretty interesting, considering it's technically optional. (Actually, I think that's why they could do this.)

First of all, there are a few things you can set up before the ritual starts:

If you save Solaufein and agree to Phaere's scheme, you can set up a double betrayal, where both Phaere and Ardulace end up with fake eggs.
You can rat Phaere out to Ardulace. If you do this, Ardulace kills Phaere before the ritual starts. You can do this and still swap out the eggs if you also saved Solaufein, I think. Alternatively, you can allow the ritual to begin with just Ardulace in the chamber.

Here are the various different ways the ritual can go down:

Ardulace and Phaere both have fake eggs. Both are killed by the demon. (As seen above.)
Ardulace has fake eggs and Phaere is dead. Ardulace is killed by the demon.
Ardulace has fake eggs and Phaere has the real ones. Ardulace is killed by the demon. Phaere offers the real eggs to the demon, and you let her. The demon takes the eggs and removes the illusion on your party. The eggs are dead and everyone turns hostile. You fail the quest and have to fight Phaere and the demon.
Ardulace has the real eggs and Phaere is dead. Ardulace offers the real eggs to the demon. The demon takes the eggs and removes the illusion on your party. The eggs are dead and everyone turns hostile. You fail the quest and have to fight Ardulace and the demon.
Ardulace has fake eggs and Phaere has the real ones. Ardulace is killed by the demon. Phaere offers the real eggs to the demon, but you interrupt her. This turns into a three-way battle between you, Phaere and the demon. You can recover the eggs (and thus complete the quest) if you can kill Phaere and escape the demon.
Regardless of who has which eggs, you can attack Ardulace during the ritual. If you do, the spell fizzles. She and Phaere (if alive) turn hostile. You can kill them and recover the eggs.

The ** LESSER DEMON LORD ** can theoretically be defeated, but you probably won't be able to pull that off. He has a lot of resistances and can only be hurt by weapons with a +5 enchantment bonus or better. In the base game, that means just Carsomyr, and to get that one, you have to go through a Red Dragon. (There are a few exceptions, though, including Melf's Magic Meteors.) While the demon can be killed, there's no special reward for this, save the 26000 XP it yields.

Oh, one more thing: If you set up the double betrayal, an evil CHARNAME then has the option to offer the eggs to the demon. If you do this, then Nalia, Cernd, Aerie, Keldorn, Valygar, Mazzy and Anomen (if Lawful Good) exit your party and turn hostile. The demon leaves you to fight it out. So this is a terrible idea.

Buuuuut, if both drow are dead and you have the real eggs and CHARNAME is evil and your entire party is evil or at least apathetic, then you can go through with the deal. You can get the demon to escort you out of Ust Natha (pointless) or trade the eggs for Blackmist +4 (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Blackmist). It's the textbook definition of Not Worth It, because you'll fail Adalon's quest, but the option's there, if you really want to be maximum evil.

For completeness' sake: You can always just fight your way into the temple, steal the eggs, and fight your way back out. You can do that before you hand the item to Mother Ardulace - or, alternatively, you can do it now and just sword her to death. When I first came up with the idea to LP & LR this series, back in 2016, I was planning to play the games "as Abdel." That is, I was going to try to replicate the choices made by the Abdel of the books. That's... not what ended up happening. But if I had stuck with that idea, I'd probably have taken that backdoor solution.

However you decide to handle it: This concludes the quest. The drow city will turn hostile in a few minutes, so we take our leave.

https://s33.postimg.cc/s8l2n4mu7/b_J2jmt_W.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/bJ2jmtW)

Adalon had probably be grateful. We'll find out next time.

... I hope this drow makeup washes off.

I think I'm running out of ways to call Phaere stupid, but what else is there to say here? The plot in this book is driven mostly by coincidence and, well, railroading. Phaere just telling Imoen the entire plot in the half-hour they spent together, and then refusing to intervene when Imoen shows up, is a good example of both.

But there is an interesting opportunity for some comparison work here, in that both the game and the book feature an example of a conspiracy being derailed. In the game, Phaere and Ardulace can get completely outplayed by CHARNAME, as we saw in the timeline presented above. This is a mix of luck and cleverness - the solution is provided for you (by Solaufein), but you had to first maneuver yourself into a situation where you could take advantage of it. If you've screwed yourself out of the golden ending, there are other opportunities for you to muck things up, some of which the game barely hints at (like betraying Phaere to Ardulace). And, importantly, you can fail. If you just go along with what everyone tells you to do, you'll mess things up, Adalon will tell you to sod off, and you'll feel like an idiot.

The book is different, of course. The villains do everything they possibly can to make sure the heroes succeed - first by setting up a needlessly complicated scheme to get Abdel and company into Ust Natha, and then by having Phaere tell the entire plan to Imoen. That second thing is technically an example of derailing the scheme, since it wasn't what Irenicus and Bodhi intended, but... well, it's unearned. Phaere's little speech did all the work, starting with "so Irenicus is doing this thing" and ending with "here's a magic wand it would be a shame if someone were to steal it." Imoen did little more than listen. The very last bit of this chapter - where Phaere can't bring herself to take the shot and kill Jaenra - suggests she may be prone to self-sabotaging behaviour. That characterization can make for interesting villains (https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11127/111279017/5260873-0201792589-46168.jpg), definitely, but it's a disappointment here.

I'm sure you're all as tired of Book!Phaere as I am, so we'll leave it at that for now. We have one final chapter of Underdark content left to cover, as Chapter Eighteen describes the journey back to the surface, and then we'll be ready to move this story into the final act. We might even learn something about Irenicus' ridiculous scheme! And... see what Yoshimo ends up doing in this version of the plot, I guess.

As for AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION, I feel like it's time for another rewriting challenge! The book's Underdark plot only works because Phaere is a blithering idiot. So here's my fix fic request: How would you rewrite the Underdark section (i. e. Chapters Fifteen through Seventeen) while keeping the rough outline intact? Do you think it can be fixed? Or would you throw it out and rewrite fullwise?

Keltest

2018-04-14, 01:02 PM

Well, they could be really, really crazy and actually let Imoen do some rogue stuff instead of just hanging out with the bad guys, and being handed the plot. Let her show off her usefulness and initiative, and actually earn that wand and command word.

They should also go through and make sure the audience understands what the Drow and Irenicus actually want to accomplish with this nonsense. I have absolutely no idea what the heck they thought they were doing beyond something evil buahaha.

Also, Abdel should just sword Yoshimo on sight. He's lost most of his soul, theoretically, and was already inclined to sword his problems before that. Let him do that. Show that he is simply unable to care that he just murdered a guy on reflex. Or heck, maybe Yoshimo's presence makes him turn into the Slayer, and THATS what breaks the Drow illusion. Much better than the dragon just being bad at magic.

Spore

2018-04-14, 01:12 PM

I'm just going to quote the Evil Overlord List again: "45.) I will make sure I have a clear understanding of who is responsible for what in my organization. For example, if my general screws up I will not draw my weapon, point it at him, say "And here is the price for failure," then suddenly turn and kill some random underling."

Honestly that behaviour just sounds like how some of my old bosses would behave. :smallannoyed:

This is ridiculous. Is there anything Phaere didn't share during her night with Imoen? Does Imoen know her credit card number and phone password? Phaere really should've listened to her mother.

Are there any hints to drugs in the text? She is behaving like a trusting old woman who pays money to help her grandchildren, even though her grandchildren live on another continent. Only in drow society.

How does drow society feel about same-sex relationships, anyway?

Not sure really. But the Drizz't books have a paragraph about a ritualistic orgy for when the priestesses graduate. One could argue both ways. Either to keep them heterosexual ("Look how easy it is to woo a man") or to show that females can have sex with anyone they please. Homosexuality has the distinct advantage of not becoming pregnant. But then again, birth control isn't exactly hard in a world with magic and alchemy.

Eh. Whichever it is, Phaere lifts her crossbow and points it at Imoen, but she can't bring herself to pull the trigger.

Cool. More stereotypes.

You can tell he's powerful because he has ** NO INSIDE VOICE. **

We big guys just tend to get a bit loud at times. No need to point fingers. :smallamused:

Lolth does not protect her faithful, and Ardulace dies screaming.

Phaere tries her luck, too.

She does not fare much better.

Maybe this is the wrong thread entirely but considering how often BG 2 offers you peaceful solutions I miss one where the evil witches survive. I mean it doesn't make sense, and this game is about literal murder incarnate but hey.

Maybe there are a few things BG would make differently today even though it is ahead of its time by choices. Then again, we deal with "roleplaying" games like Fallout today (Yes, sarcastic yes, No [maybe later])

If you are interested, here are the alternate branches. Meanwhile, in a parallel universe...

It is really really nice for you to have so many options. But doing good or not, anything to help the drow decimate the surface elves helps Irenicus, aka the dude who stole your soul. Butchering your way through Ust Natha and retrieve the eggs is the smartest way I could find to ensure the elves have a chance against Irenicus' siege and you might be able to call on the help of a great silver dragon.

As for AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION, I feel like it's time for another rewriting challenge! The book's Underdark plot only works because Phaere is a blithering idiot. So here's my fix fic request: How would you rewrite the Underdark section (i. e. Chapters Fifteen through Seventeen) while keeping the rough outline intact? Do you think it can be fixed? Or would you throw it out and rewrite fullwise?

Now this is a challenge. I would keep everything the same, down to the drow not noticing that Abdel is fake. That's what they'd say. In the background, Solausein would pull strings that Abdel gets as far as he can. Phaere knows the group is fake, Solausein does, but the group does not. You play with the reader's anticipation here. The rest of the tone of the book makes it seem like the drow are that gullible. Abdel advances towards the eggs and is confronted by Phaere and her elite guard. Abdel gets a sweet fight scene, but ultimatively crumbles under the opposition. Clobbered close to death he goes nova and transforms again, butchering all but Phaere in the process. Meanwhile Imoen gets the eggs in a magical bag ('member this world has bags of holding?) and Jaheira warps the doors shut.

The group flees successfully, hunted down by drow. The book seems to be in a rush, so this part should be sped up.

Guancyto

2018-04-14, 04:04 PM

I mean, yeah. Abdel is an invincible swordsman. Imoen is a sassy rogue. Jaheira is a nature magician. Phaere is a scheming backstabber.

To improve it, I would... let literally any of those people... be literally any of those things.

Honest Tiefling

2018-04-17, 04:20 PM

1) Why is the sex wand also the combat wand? This seems like a lack of safety measures...

2) Actually, lesbian drow makes sense. In many patriarchal cultures, male to male homosexual BEHAVIOR is not punished or deemed unnatural, more like a hobby or side interest. Think of the Romans, Norse and Greeks, and none of them had any issue with male on male activity. Drow don't spend THAT much time pregnant, so showing dominance by seducing women seems pretty legit to me. I mean, you need a form of population control and ways to show off status.

Also, maybe Lolth herself enjoys a bit of cheesecake. She doesn't bother to interact with males and drow are quite pretty, possibly due to her influence.

3) The orgy for the priestesses from the Drizzt books, if I remember correctly, might have involved several demons of...Whatever gender. I don't know if demons have a particular sex or what. But later materials suggest this is where the special half-breed of drow/demon hybrids come from that show up in later stuff.

As for fixing this? Well...

1) Drow don't work with undead elves. Ick. They turn against their allies, explaining how Team Derp gets anywhere.

2) The Deep Gnomes do things because gods know how else the protagonists would do things.

3) Phaere has a desire not for women (since she can find those anywhere, is she just really incompetent at being a lesbian too!?) but thicc ladies...Like a human would be to an elf. Also, she could yearn for a relationship as opposed to...Well, more nope. This could be a hint that she might seek out Eilistraee had she the opportunity, but more important things are afoot so the protagonists can't help. Solausein is also pointless, so he can't do this.

4) Replace Yoshimo with someone else. He's obviously going to betray them. What if the geas affected, oh, Aerie or Anomen?

There's probably more, but yeah, probably better to just re-write the entire section.

Calemyr

2018-04-18, 01:52 PM

As for AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION, I feel like it's time for another rewriting challenge! The book's Underdark plot only works because Phaere is a blithering idiot. So here's my fix fic request: How would you rewrite the Underdark section (i. e. Chapters Fifteen through Seventeen) while keeping the rough outline intact? Do you think it can be fixed? Or would you throw it out and rewrite fullwise?

Assuming "Get a better writer" isn't a viable solution...

First, bring Ardulace into the story. She is a vital disconnect between Irenicus and the party. Let Irenicus tell Adulace the whole story, but Ardulace is far too smart to tell Phaere the whole story because Phaere is a Drow and a Drow that is not in power is a Drow looking for a back to stab. Thus Phaere doesn't know about the incoming Bhaalspawn, and is low enough in rank to do petty, stupid stuff like publicly dress down a lieutenant like Solafein. As the head honcho, these kinds of rookie mistakes would be suicidal, especially among Drow who are always looking for weaknesses to exploit. But as middle-management bursting with ambitions and frustrations, Phaere's mistakes make a lot more sense.

Second, let Abdel and Jaheira fumble blindly throughout Ust Natha. Milk the shifting balance of power between the two, with the subservient Jaheira being forced to take a dominating role in the pair while the usually dominant Adrian has to struggle and keep his mouth shut and trust her. If you're keeping the actual author's style, this role-play could lend itself to a loves scene between the two. The two do not effectively solve the problem with Irenicus, but they do "fix" some of the things happening in the city. Like the slaves, for instance. I could totally see Jaheira using her temporary leadership to make Abdel do something unabashedly good for once. For added fun, let her go Game-Jaheira for this moment, letting her just take charge of the situation with haughty certainty. "Excellent. I have use for slaves back home. Veldrin, pay the man. Come to think of it, however, I would hate to see such pathetic rabble under my house's banner. See that they're properly equipped as well. Stop gaping at me, male, and hand over the gold! I swear, why do I even bother dragging you along? Wait, never mind. (Cheshire grin.) I remember."

Third, let Imoen play an active role in her part. She's not just a passing fancy of Phaere's, she saw Phaere and saw someone she could exploit, and the seduction is mutual - Phaere sees Imoen as a pleasant opportunity to vent her frustration of being left out of the loop, while Imoen sees Phaere as a source of information and... well.. a taste of something exotic. While Phaere enjoys her domination of the newbie, Imoen is fanning her ego and asking leading questions. Let Phaere question, just for a moment, if she's making a mistake spilling the beans, but... darn it feels good to have a cute girl like this worshiping your ruthlessness and genius!

Finally, give a reason for the veil to fall. Most likely have Jaheira, in a moment of weakness, refers to Adrian by name and break the illusion, or have Abdel off-handedly suggest they forget the whole dragon egg nonsense and just go after Irenicus already. Or possibly have Abdel run into Jarlaxle and call his bluff (Abdel is beginning to show a little savvy), only to find out it wasn't a bluff. In any event, the veil falls and the game is up.

Abdel grunted under the weight as he lowered the last of the eggs into the cart. "Where's Imoen?" He demanded under his breath. "We've got to-"

"We're not alone, Abdel." Jaheira interrupted, quietly. Abdel followed her gaze and found a familiar face at the end.

"I did warn you that we'd meet again, didn't I?" Jarlaxle asked with a foppish grin. "I do hope you've enjoyed your visit to this quaint little town." In his hand, he held a glass sphere. He tossed it experimentally in the air and caught it in an open palm.

"Why now?" Abdel asked. It wasn't much, but it was all he could think to say.

The Drow continued tossing the ball casually in one hand as he looked the scene over. "For the fun of it, of course. And the profit, let us not forget that. I could have revealed you at any time and caused a little chaos. A little entertainment. But right now? With you in possession of such contraband lifted from the treasury of a high priestess? Now that would make for a lot of chaos. And, with that, some wonderful opportunities will just open up."

"We're not going to die here." Abdel promised, trying not to focus on the bouncing ball. "No trap can hold me."

"That is quite alright, I assure you. By all means, fight to your heart's content. It will only afford me more time. Now, as amusing as this has been, I must be off. Good luck, Mister Adrian. I will be watching with interest." With that, he vanished, leaving the sphere behind on another upwards journey. As gravity took hold of it once more, it fell only to find no hand waiting to catch it.

As it crashed and shattered, a fierce whisper of torn magic ripped past Abdel's ears. He looked down in horror as the smooth, dusky tint of his skin faded into the hairy pale tone he was familiar with.

In the frozen second, it was Yoshimo that broke the silence. "Now would be a good time to run, my friend."

It was hard to argue with that.

Not how I would write it myself, but I think it would take the story as-is and tighten it up. Abdel gets some activity, but is forced to take a passive role he's really not built for, while Jaheira is forced to think on her feet and for herself. Imoen remains in the role given her but is proactive and intentional rather just having everything dropped in her lap.

Honest Tiefling

2018-04-18, 05:54 PM

I feel like making it clear that Imoen is seducing Idiot Drow Lady severely reduces the nope of the situation, so I'm all for it.

Khay

2018-04-21, 07:30 AM

Excellent contributions all around, thank you all! Reading though those, I definitely think this section could've been salvaged. Forcing the characters out of their comfort zones and letting the non-Abdel people do things, that would've been nice.

Chapter Eighteen concludes our visit to the Underdark. Today, we journey back to the surface. This chapter is relatively long, but it's also easy to summarize since not much actually happens here. This update goes a little weird with the commentary section.

You know how the last chapter ended with a huge magical explosion that killed most people in Ust Natha? Well, unfortunately, Abdel made it out okay.

When Abdel hit, the air was pushed from his lungs and explosions of purple and red blazed behind his eyelids. He immediately tried to push himself up and roll over, but all he could manage was one quick, dull glance. He saw one of the enormous feet of the silver dragon Adalon and heard a rumbling voice say, "They're safe," before he lost consciousness.

I think this is meant to imply that Adalon teleported them away just before the portal blew up. The book never quite explains, but it's the only thing that really makes sense.

They lose consciousness for a while. An indeterminate amount of time passes. The rest of the party lets Abdel sleep it off. When he wakes back up, they are... well, still in the cave. Adalon is a little pre-occupied, you see.

Jaheira shrugged and stood up, turning to face the dragon towering overhead like a living cathedral of liquid silver. The dragon was crying. Abdel's heart swelled from the sound of it, and he knew, all of a sudden and all at once, he knew. Set up or not, manipulation or not, deception or not, there was a time to do the right thing. (...) A talon as big as two men came down slowly and caressed the top of one of the eggs with a touch so gentle Abdel couldn't have believed a human could manage it, much less something the size of a decent keep.

The writing here is clumsy, and it still kinda reads like a first draft, but I appreciate the sentiment. It's a genuinely sweet moment, and something we don't actually get in the game. Abdel, Jaheira and Imoen spend some time watching the dragon's superhuman joy, and it makes them feel warm and fuzzy inside.

What about Yoshimo, though?

"That was foolish," Yoshimo said to Abdel, his voice gruff and low. (...) Yoshimo sneered. "Do you have any idea, druid, what that gate represented? What power that thing... You weren't supposed to be so... active."
"We were supposed to be good little pawns, is that it?" Abdel asked, surprised by how little anger he felt toward the Kozakuran.

This is our big confronting-the-traitor scene. The game gave us something similar in Chapter Nine and Chapter Thirteen, and it was... well, pretty impressive, even if it always was pretty obvious that Yoshimo was going to become a traitor. Let's see how this is handled, yeah?

Abdel sheathed his sword and looked over to see the dragon carefully lifting her eggs from the crumbling cart.
"Yoshimo," Abdel said, "under any other circumstance I'd just kill you now and get it over with, but I've been... thinking. You can come with us. You can have a chance to..."
"Redeem yourself," Jaheira provided with a smile.
Abdel nodded and said, "Or I will kill you. Believe me that I will kill you."

I was prepared for having this fall flat, but this is flatter than expected. Yoshimo was demoted to an extra, but this is just... weak. Abdel knew Yoshimo for maybe half an hour before the betrayal, combined, and the betrayal itself was resolved in maybe five minutes. This strikes me as very easy forgiveness, given that he has given them literally no reason to trust him. They don't actually know the guy.

Eh. I guess it's impossible to be grumpy in the company of a super happy silver dragon. We'll talk about Yoshimo's arc - or lack thereof - at a later date. His story won't conclude until Chapter Twentysomething. For now, the thief cautions that Irenicus is still dangerous. Abdel agrees, and Adalon shoos them out, pointing them to the exit tunnel and telling them to find an elf named Elhan.

* * * * *

Chapter Eighteen isn't all that long, but it does have several parts, so we don't stop here. Instead, we check back in with Bodhi.

Bring your people to Suldanessellar, Jon Irenicus said into Bodhi's mind, and be prepared to kill them all.
She was just about to reply when a crossbow bolt punched through the supple, pale flesh of her bare mid-section and pushed violently out the other side. The vampire, uninjured despite the momentary mess, looked up to see a group of Shadow Thieves emerge from the darkness behind a large marble mausoleum. In the walled Grave District of Athkatla, the night was overcast and dark, but Bodhi's undead eyesight saw the five assassins clearly enough.
One of them was an older woman she'd heard some of her own people talk about. A priestess of Xvim (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Iyachtu_Xvim), this one was, named Neela. She had heard that Neela was dead, but Bodhi had been dead briefly herself once.

Bodhi is in an ambush and must defend herself.

This section is quite interesting, because this is the first time the book has made me nod and thing "yeah this is some real D&D content." Priests and rogues and fighters engaging vampires in combat, in a graveyard. The fight itself is a relatively straightforward, though. Bodhi summons her various assorted minions (vampires and a few humans) and they battle it out. They are all named and have a decent gender balance, which is nice to see. (Specifically, Team Bodhi consists of Sheeta, Goram, Nevilla, Naris and Kelvan.) Some of them even get a little bit of backstory - like Kelvan, who is currently interning but will be promoted to vampire shortly.

I'm sorry if it seems I'm going a bit too fast, but... not much actually happens here. It's a fight, you know how these go. Sheeta uses her sling to disarm a Shadow Thief; a lot of steel throwing knives are flung at the vampires; and the fight commences.

If Nevilla hadn't come up to Bodhi's side so quickly, she might have been in danger from the stake. Instead, she grabbed Nevilla roughly by the shoulder and pulled the thrall in front of her just as the assassin stabbed down with the stake. Nevilla apparently realized what was about to happen, because she let out a frightened shriek when the assassin corrected in mid-stab and went for Nevilla instead of Bodhi. He must have figured one vampire was as good as any.

The stake hits Nevilla in the chest, dusting her instantly. Bodhi herself hangs back, figuring her remaining thralls can handle this. She checks in with Irenicus in the meantime.

Bringing all these lovely little assassins of mine to some elf city just to kill them, she thought, directing the words to the distant mind of Jon Irenicus, seems like a waste.
Oh no, he replied quickly, not a drop of their blood will be wasted, my dear. These playthings of yours will help me unleash from this child of Bhaal such power ...I will bring forth the Slayer.
All that to kill a single elf?
A single elf, yes, Irenicus replied. A single elf whose death will make me immortal again.

Ominous! This, I think, is our first hint that the curse which drives the game's plot may also exist in the book. Maybe. It's not particularly clear. We'll find out more once we get to Suldanessellar. (We'll spend so many chapters in Suldanessellar.)

* * * * *

For now, we'll return to Team Abdel for a few paragraphs.

"That's fifteen days," Abdel said. "We've been down there for fifteen days?"
Jaheira and Imoen looked at him, amazed.
"I'm not sure," Imoen said slowly, "if that seems like more time or less time than it actually felt like."
"And you were told to expect us?" Jaheira asked the thin, stern-faced elf who was obviously the leader of the patrol.
"After a fashion, druid," the elf answered in thickly accented Common.

Fifteen days, huh. It's rare to get a real sense of time and place in this book, so this is nice to hear. Most of that must've been travel time, since the events in Ust Natha can't have taken more than two days.

Our heroes have made it back to the surface without further trouble, and ran into an elven patrol after a few minutes of wandering. The elves knew they were coming (perhaps Adalon gave them a heads-up?) and are escorting them to Elhan. Continuing the trend of unusual things happening, we get some nice environmental descriptions:

The night was cool, and the trees hissed with a chilling breeze. The dark forest was alive with the sounds of a thousand animals of all sizes and descriptions, singing away the very last traces of indigo in the now-black sky and greeting the spray of stars that peeked through the thick canopy. (...)
"We'll be in camp by this time tomorrow night," the elf said.

I imagine that it would be very comforting to be able to see the stars again, having spent weeks underground. The elf leader hands his cloak to Jaheira, who is feeling a bit chilly, and warns Abdel that they have a lot of walking to do. Abdel shrugs it off, and the group sets out towards the camp.

* * * * *

... and with that, we cut back to Bodhi.

The priestess muttered through a series of seemingly meaningless words and even less meaningful hand gestures. (...) Naris pulled back his right arm to bring the polearm to bear and froze that way. Bodhi heard the stone from Sheeta's sling drop onto the hard ground, and the vampire turned to look at her. The short orc woman was also frozen firmly in place.

This looks like Hold Something (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Hold_Person_(divine)) to me, likely Person or Monster. It's not the most devastating (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/False_Dawn) spell Neela could've opened with, but we don't know her character level, so... fair enough. One of the problems with the previous book was the near-complete absence of spellcasters. Bhaal is Dead! does better on that front, if nothing else.

Two of Bodhi's vampires make their saving throws and charge, one at Neela, one at the remaining Shadow Thief (named as Selarra). Neela strikes one of the thralls with her mace, which turns out to be enchanted, because the vampire dies screaming - it's a one-hit kill. Bodhi decides she probably does need to intervene before she loses her last minion.

Bodhi's teasing sidestep brought her to within an arm's reach of the priestess[.] (...) Goram ducked a fast blow from the enchanted mace and had to almost throw himself to the ground to avoid the wild attack. The priestess screamed angrily when Bodhi took her eye in a hard rake of sharp claws. The mace dropped from Neela's grip.

And thus the encounter (and the chapter) ends. Goodbye, Neela and most of the other people who had names. Hey, look on the bright side - you got almost as much character development as Khalid.

Last time, we did a lot of backstabbing, and were rewarded with a nice and shiny set of dragon eggs. (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Eggs) The little ones seem to be alright, so we'll take them back to their mother.

https://s33.postimg.cc/qfi5yuby7/t1dn_GWW.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/t1dnGWW)

Silver dragons are known for their powers of observation.

🥈 ADALON: You return!
🥈 ADALON: You have returned victorious! I sense my beautiful eggs on your person. I shall take them and give you the reward I promised.
🥈 ADALON: May it serve you well in the time ahead. Ahh, but I also promised a safe escape, did I not? One that will lead you nearer Bodhi and Irenicus?
🥈 ADALON: I shall transport us there, and see you safely away. Truth be known you might have gone there yourself, but it would have been all the bloodier.
:roy: CHARNAME: It was an honor to serve. May I assume that you will be punishing the Drow now?
🥈 ADALON: No, they will receive what they deserve from the elves they face. I have seen too much of this evil to continue guarding a peace that does not exist.
🥈 ADALON: My last act here will be a few selective deaths perhaps, a lesson for those responsible for my strife at least. They will know not to cross my path again.
🥈 ADALON: But that is for later. I shall help you as I promised and then see to my own concerns. Before I take you to the way to the surface, I must transform myself into a more suitable form.

This is a rather measured response. I would've assumed Adalon would be angrier. I guess that's the Lawful Good self-control at work, or maybe Adalon is just a bit passive. She's still going to prevent any reinforcements from reaching the surface, so that should do the trick.

https://s33.postimg.cc/7bouhwr7z/l_O8_CCXG.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/lO8CCXG)

One surface teleport, coming up! The exit is in the Kuo-Toa Ruins, but Adalon is going to skip straight to the end.

We no longer look like drow and no longer understand their language. Here's what's going on, according to Eilistraee's Drow Translator:

:smallyuk: UDDOOR02: Beware! They are not Drow!
:amused: VICONIA: Guard! We are not your enemy!
:smallyuk: UDDOOR02: This will be amusing. Light be upon you, rogue!

Well, Viconia tried.

There's a small number of drow here, possibly reinforced by off-screen kuo-toa, but it's a relatively straightforward encounter. We have backup from Adalon, who - even in non-draconic form - is still a powerful spellcaster.

https://s33.postimg.cc/hyinnc733/y_Oy_SFNh.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/yOySFNh)

She leaves as soon as the last drow falls, bidding us goodbye. You... weren't actually that helpful, Adalon, but we earned a lot of EXP by screwing over Ust Natha, so... thanks. (Also, this door is sealed unless Adalon is with you / you have found a backdoor path through the quest.)

We fight our way through another war camp or five (https://s33.postimg.cc/luvzjbzsf/1w_HQH2_S.png). Eventually, we reach the temple that Adalon was supposed to be guarding.

https://s33.postimg.cc/7bouhxedb/bm_Qnd0_W.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/bmQnd0W)

There are parties of elves here fighting against parties of drow. The drow are hostile, the elves are neutral. So of course we intervene on behalf of the elves. We're high-level adventurers, after all. Altering the outcome of a war? That's what we do. (Actually, this is a bit small-scale for a war.)

https://s33.postimg.cc/fh6wg3abz/LIm7f_B9.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/LIm7fB9)

This is the exit from the temple and, by extension, the Underdark. Gods, I can't wait to see the sun and smell grass. We'll finally be under the open skies again...

Next time.

This is kind of a weird chapter. It's relatively long, at eleven pages, but very little actually happens here. Yoshimo receives some easy forgiveness, Team Abdel makes it back to the surface, and Bodhi resolves a random encounter with acceptable losses. That's pretty much it. Yoshimo's arc isn't complete yet, so we'll talk about him in a later update. Instead, I think it's time for a nice, long, disorganized stream-of-consciousness ramble about story structure.

See, you could cut this chapter from the book, and it wouldn't affect the plot one bit. That's usually not a good sign. However, I'm willing to give it a pass, because Chapter Eighteen does provide something we've been missing so far: Some actual worldbuilding. Some setting detail. A suggestion that there's more to the world than the bits directly witnessed by Team Abdel. That sort of thing. The Forgotten Realms world is a huge, expansive setting with a deep and rich backstory. It has to be - otherwise it wouldn't work as a D&D campaign setting. The novel has done an exceptionally poor job showing off the world, utterly unlike the games. We've seen very little of the world, and we learned almost nothing about the parts we did see.

This again goes back to the book being far too short, I think. There are some 65,000 words spread over 240 pages here, which sounds like it would be plenty, but compare that to actual genre stalwarts - this book is about half as long as Guards! Guards! or a third as long as The Fellowship of the Ring. This has consequences. Plot threads are resolved almost as quickly as they are introduced, and there's simply no room for things like quiet character moments because the narrator is always in a rush. Worse yet, despite its short length, the book somehow manages to contain filler material, like the minotaur wrestling contest in Spellhold.

... I wonder how much of this is an inherent format with the format. See, paper D&D is kinda set up to be consumed in chunks, i. e. game sessions. Ideally, each game session is going to have its own gameplay-focussed mini-arc with setup, confrontation and resolution, with an overarcing story that is gradually advanced through these mini-arcs. You would not normally tell a complete story in one setting. That format translates very well to videogame form, but novels have no gameplay to hold them up, so you run into trouble if you copy the structure directly. (Above and beyond the translation-of-a-translation problem.) Some books get away with stapling a series of loosely connected mini-arcs together, but they tend to be childrens' books, or otherwise intended to be consumed in bite-sized chunks. The Hobbit or Harry Potter and The Philosopher's Stone are good examples, because they also use their self-contained mini-âdventures to establish character. Novels, especially short ones like this, are different. The overarcing plot is a lot more important here - the mini-arcs need to serve the plot, not the other way 'round. It's entirely possible to consume the entire thing in one or two sittings, so if your book is a series of mini-arcs stapled together in a way that vaguely resembles a plot, and you also fumble the side quest/main quest integration, it quickly becomes grating. (That's part of why the Hobbit movies are so horrible.) A good author can probably make this work, but... Athans was not a good author at this point in his career.

Chapter Eighteen is kind of an odd time to bring all of this up, because it's actually one of the exceptions. Yes, the graveyard fight is technically filler, but the chapter still manages to hint at a larger world, it advances the plot and reveals character, and the random encounter is actually pleasant to read because it has at least a small amount of tension. (Which of the redshirts will make it?) The cutting back-and-forth between viewpoints is handled deftly, the chapter boundaries make some small degree of sense, and the random encounter feels like it actually belongs in a D&D world. Weirdly, the same thing happened in the last book (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?513564-Let-s-Read-and-also-Play-Baldur-s-Gate-Bhaal-must-be-stopped!&p=22037197&viewfull=1#post22037197), which also had a Chapter Eighteen that was vastly superior to the rest of the book. (Though last book's Chapter 18 was better than this book's Chapter 18.) If more of the series was like those chapters, the books would have been... well, still unambitious, but palatable.

So we've kinda talked about everything that can reasonably be discussed about the Underdark, I think. We've had the sound-off about the area, we've had discussions of drow culture, we've even had the fix fic challenge. (Some good entries, be sure to read them if they haven't! This is a big missed opportunity. I like the idea of taking the characters out of their respective comfort zones here. And, you know, letting those who aren't Abdel actually do something.) Also, Chapter Eighteen doesn't deserve the vitriol of some other chapters, since... well, I kinda liked it, even if the summary ended up a bit short.

All this discussion of genre and medium has gotten me thinking, though. We've talked about translating Baldur's Gate to a different genre, like a high school romantic comedy, but how about a different medium? It exists in pen-and-paper form, as a book and as a videogame (duh), but could you imagine it as a card game? An animated miniseries? A webcomic? Let your imagination run wild. I want to see some outlandish sales pitches.

Honest Tiefling

2018-04-21, 12:18 PM

This book reminds me of the Midnight movie...Which was lacking in the rando lesbo sex, but was still pretty bad. It was intended to be a pilot (I think) but it does make me wonder if DnD campaigns like Baldur's Gate could be mini-series as you have a lot of material, a functional world and the plot doesn't lend itself to one big climax as opposed to several episodic ones. I don't really know much of comic books, but I could see that operating on the same principle.

Spore

2018-04-22, 08:36 AM

Neela strikes one of the thralls with her mace, which turns out to be enchanted, because the vampire dies screaming - it's a one-hit kill.

They did none of the characters justice but he made an effort to include the Mace of Disruption (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Mace_of_Disruption)? Why?

or maybe Adalon is just a bit passive.

She is a dragon. Their entire schtick is sleeping and being passive. It's like they saw lizards and thought: "What if they were big? Eh, they'd still lie around 22 hours of the day. Fire breathing or not."

We fight our way through another war camp or five.

Maybe you ...uhm, could teleport us to where we need to be? You know Suldanessalar, bring us there. The city is in danger. But nuh-uh.

This is kind of a weird chapter. It's relatively long, at eleven pages

Eleven pages is long for this book? :smalleek:

Maryring

2018-04-22, 05:48 PM

Honestly, I could really see Baldur's Gate 2 as a TV series. Each adventure being it's own "monster of the week" kind of deal where CHARNAME and his gang of Jaheira, Minsc, Viconia and Yoshimo wander around, with occasional guest stars like Nalia or Keldorn as they do those specific quests. Finally they gather up enough gold to travel to Spellhold and rescue Imoen.

Then the Execs cancel it after the cliffhanger episode where the treachery of Yoshimo is revealed because they don't get this sword and sorcery nonsense. Fan outrage is immense. Petitions are sent in, but nothing really happens. Some fans try to make the final episode where the party confronts and beats Yoshimo and Irenicus, but they get hit with a cease and desist. Ultimately nothing happens and the series is considered yet another victim of executives who do not understand their own shows.

Kish

2018-04-22, 05:59 PM

Why does your imagined TV show place Viconia above as a main cast member rather than a guest star?

Maryring

2018-04-22, 06:14 PM

Viconia does not have her own subquest to be part of and leave once it's completed.

Honest Tiefling

2018-04-22, 07:23 PM

Viconia does not have her own subquest to be part of and leave once it's completed.

Also, the Two Girls to a Team rule. What is this, the 80's!?

Keltest

2018-04-22, 08:18 PM

Also, the Two Girls to a Team rule. What is this, the 80's!?

Well they need to leave the 6th slot open for the rotating character/Imoen. Yoshimo is important for the betrayal, Minsc will carry the entire show, and Abdel is the character that everybody wishes they could replace but the story is written around.

Honest Tiefling

2018-04-22, 08:58 PM

Well they need to leave the 6th slot open for the rotating character/Imoen. Yoshimo is important for the betrayal, Minsc will carry the entire show, and Abdel is the character that everybody wishes they could replace but the story is written around.

Oh, family never sticks around. She'd be dead by the season finale. Can't have too many actors you know. Good thing attitudes have changed or she'd be dead because of being a lesbian instead of just plain being too expensive. Let us give this book credit, they haven't killed the lesbian that is 100 times more interesting then the main character...Yet. Please tell me she lives. She's the only one I like!

She is a dragon. Their entire schtick is sleeping and being passive. It's like they saw lizards and thought: "What if they were big? Eh, they'd still lie around 22 hours of the day. Fire breathing or not.

Adalon can't do anything because she is not Abdel. Therefore she is rendered useless after meeting him. I'm honestly glad she didn't end up boinking him too.

Guancyto

2018-04-22, 09:10 PM

Let us give this book credit, they haven't killed the lesbian that is 100 times more interesting then the main character...Yet. Please tell me she lives. She's the only one I like!
I mean, they did just knock off Phaere. That's 1 for 3 so far, and 2 is Bodhi...

Kish

2018-04-22, 09:21 PM

THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE.

Even vaguely significant character who survives to the end of the novels, that is.

And it's Abdel.

Spore

2018-04-22, 09:54 PM

Why does your imagined TV show place Viconia above as a main cast member rather than a guest star?

Nah. Viconia has to be part of "Team Evil". Not Team Villain. She is the the bossy female that heckles the protagonist's love interest. She usually romances the fittest guy on Team Evil but I make a point here to bring Sarevok (or Dorn) back earlier because I cannot see her dating Korgan :smallredface: Maybe she could even mingle with Anomen.

They could just rival the good guys on the jobs the quest NPCs send them out to. Ratting out the good party to the Drow would get them killed so they do their best to indirectly sabotage the goodies. "Yes, have them kill a few dozen svirfneblin. And an eye tyrant. I hear your demon loves their eye stalks with a bit of Bechamel sauce."

Mordokai

2018-04-23, 02:48 AM

Well they need to leave the 6th slot open for the rotating character/Imoen. Yoshimo is important for the betrayal, Minsc will carry the entire show, and Abdel is the character that everybody wishes they could replace but the story is written around.

You would seriously do a TV series based on BG2, but not replace Abdel with somebody more likeable?

Or barring that, at least sligthly less annoying/unlikeable?

Maryring

2018-04-23, 04:58 AM

That would actually be the great thing if you ever did make it into a TV series. You wouldn't have to use Abdel. Except perhaps as some background character who does absolutely nothing of value or interest whatsoever.

Spore

2018-04-23, 06:53 AM

You would seriously do a TV series based on BG2, but not replace Abdel with somebody more likeable?

Or barring that, at least sligthly less annoying/unlikeable?

Doesnt the actual Faerunian NPC Abdel have some sort of charm to him? The older parts of his biography are seemingly well handled so you could try and add the wisdom and cleverness that he naturally should have as a child of Candlekeep to his earlier life.

The Glyphstone

2018-04-23, 08:46 AM

Yeah - call him Abdel, but use the personality of CHARNAME from the game, not Abdel from the novel. As a running gag, give him a habit of randomly pulling out his journal in the middle of otherwise dramatic/climactic moments to write things down.

Maryring

2018-04-23, 09:11 AM

Honestly, I would love that. Right in the middle of Jon's epic speeches about his ultimate triumph and godllike power, CHARNAME shows him precisely the respect he deserves by writing in his journal.

Keltest

2018-04-23, 09:16 AM

TheStranger

2018-04-23, 09:30 AM

Honestly, I would love that. Right in the middle of Jon's epic speeches about his ultimate triumph and godllike power, CHARNAME shows him precisely the respect he deserves by writing in his journal.

For some reason, I imagined CHARNAME using an iphone for this. "Siri, take a note. Irenicus has revealed his plans..."

Then I started wondering if you could make a "modern fantasy" version of BG2, taking all the major characters and plot elements and adapting them to fit in the real world. Kind of like how a bunch of movies are stealth retellings of something by Shakespeare. I'd watch that show.

Calemyr

2018-04-23, 12:34 PM

It's tricky to find the right medium for this. Live action would be bound by the need for a lot of expensive special effects. Western cartoons, despite recent progress, are still rarely mature enough to handle a story like this. All said, I think anime would be the better option, because we need two things that have been rather well done in that medium: Record of Lodoss War provides a solid blueprint of how to do a D&D campaign. Persona 4 provides a decent example of how to abridge optional content without letting it get too stale (although it does still feel rushed at points).

One thing that I would like to see is a Baldur's Gate story starring a female main character. That's always tricky, I know, as the focus tends to be on such characters being female rather than being protagonists. If she needs a love interest, give her Rasaad, especially if you're going to give her the "fun" personality I'd want to see. I mean, just imagine the physical incarnation of murder buried in the body of a good-natured genki girl who faces the darkness and comes out still smiling. (Opposite Imoen, who avoids facing the darkness and doesn't fare so well once she does.)

NRSASD

2018-04-23, 12:37 PM

"don't mind me, I'm just writing this down for posterity."

In Tyranny, Baldur's Gate's distant evil cousin, one of your party members, Lantry, literally does exactly that. It's amazing

ti'esar

2018-04-24, 01:38 AM

I stumbled across this the other day and just finished getting through both threads thus far, so I wanted to take a moment to comment on how great it's been to read. The original Baldur's Gate novel has the dubious distinction of being one of the first books I read that I actually disliked and did not pick up again at the time of my most uncritical fantasy-reading period - even though I had no familiarity with the games at the time - so this has been a weird sort of memory trip. (And I really love the game dialogue being done through forum smileys, for some reason).

Honest Tiefling

2018-04-25, 06:12 PM

Calemyr

2018-04-26, 08:21 AM

Nah. Viconia has to be part of "Team Evil". Not Team Villain. She is the the bossy female that heckles the protagonist's love interest. She usually romances the fittest guy on Team Evil but I make a point here to bring Sarevok (or Dorn) back earlier because I cannot see her dating Korgan :smallredface: Maybe she could even mingle with Anomen.

They could just rival the good guys on the jobs the quest NPCs send them out to. Ratting out the good party to the Drow would get them killed so they do their best to indirectly sabotage the goodies. "Yes, have them kill a few dozen svirfneblin. And an eye tyrant. I hear your demon loves their eye stalks with a bit of Bechamel sauce."

Actually, in my version of the story, Viconia is the MC's love interest. Not because she's my favorite (Jaheira all the way), but because what it adds to the story.

First thing is that Viconia is the only character other than Minsc that is available through 90% of all three games. You have time to create a rapport, there, and history is power when it comes to narrative. (Jaheira misses most of Siege of Dragonspear, while Imoen misses almost all of it and then a good third of BG2.)

On the MC's side, Viconia represents a destructive influence that is pushing him to indulge his divine heritage. I usually see the MC as a generally well-meaning sort that struggles with a barely contained dark side, able to maintain control primarily due to the disciplined upbringing of Gorion and the calming influence of Imoen. Adding in Viconia, who not only finds that unholy power alluring but wants to see more of it... it creates a complex dance of death where she's clearly a bad influence but at the same time is intoxicating and extremely useful (as a full cleric with natural magic resistance). "Intoxicating" is probably the perfect word for it, more I think about it - she's a drug he knows is bad for him but he can't bring himself to quit.

On Viconia's side, the MC is probably the single best and worst thing that's ever happened to her. Her life outside of him is horrible, with everything going horribly wrong whenever she's alone. At the MC's side, she's safe and accepted (though very much not liked by most of the group) and she thrives. And that's horrible. It's tantamount to slavery. She is bound to him and cannot escape without suffering for it. And to make matters worse, her attempts to corrupt him ultimately have the opposite effect of forcing her to re-evaluate her own ideals, leading her to becoming neutral rather than evil. In a warped way, it's a toxic relationship where they're both trying to corrupt the other - leaving both of them in a moral quagmire where neither of them can be truly good or evil.

As for the ending, the "official" version of the Bhaalspawn Saga has Adrian taking over as the leader of Baldur's Gate. Viconia's ending matches up with this, as the MC becomes a statesman and she becomes his mistress (marriage seems to be dismissed outright) and right hand. So the story ends pretty much where it began, with Adrian and Viconia in Baldur's Gate, but this time on the top of the food chain rather than being hunted refugees. In my retelling of the events, the story ends with Viconia's funeral (she's assassinated by Drow in the relevant ending), with Adrian and their son leaving that funeral to declare war on the Underdark. Again.

Perhaps it's just me, but I can see that adding a lot of depth and complexity to both the plot and the characters, on a level even Jaheira can't match. Add in the fact that Viconia has some wonderfully acidic one-liners and banters, and she becomes able to add comedy as well as drama.

Unless I'm wrong, she doesn't actually romance anyone other than the MC, though she readily flirts with anyone who's strong enough to catch her interest. Unless you're head-canoning that. Her and Dorn as the evil-but-allied beta couple could be an interesting party dynamic.

So do I get a few points towards the evil side of the spectrum if I recommend rotoscoping?

Envisioning that in my mind is... glorious. Just a hand drawn, mechanically animated gif of a guy with a sword just slaughtering an endless horde of goblins forever...

Unless you mean CG rotoscoping, like in the CG movies for Beowulf or A Christmas Carol? A computer generated veneer over a live action performance? It would be outrageously expensive to do properly, but it could be done. You'd be forced to decide between a franchise of movies or an extended episodic series, both of which would struggle to effectively adapt the gross amounts of optional content in the games, resulting in much the same situation as anime - just with an even larger budget requirement.

Honest Tiefling

2018-04-26, 11:16 AM

Envisioning that in my mind is... glorious. Just a hand drawn, mechanically animated gif of a guy with a sword just slaughtering an endless horde of goblins forever...

Unless you mean CG rotoscoping, like in the CG movies for Beowulf or A Christmas Carol? A computer generated veneer over a live action performance? It would be outrageously expensive to do properly, but it could be done. You'd be forced to decide between a franchise of movies or an extended episodic series, both of which would struggle to effectively adapt the gross amounts of optional content in the games, resulting in much the same situation as anime - just with an even larger budget requirement.

I'm only aware of the technique being tracing live action actors. It's gotten a bit of a bad rap but has produced some nice looking animation. Through when I thought of Baldur's Gate the Novel as a series, my mind went to the movie Fire and Ice (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085542/) that relied on this technique heavily...And has a similar type of plot to the novels. Why do things happen? Who knows! Why do things exist? Who knows!

Khay

2018-04-28, 05:26 AM

Oh man, I love the idea of a Baldur's Gate miniseries. You can probably fit a game into, say, ten(ish) episodes of forty minutes each. I do think it should be an animated series, though. It's difficult to do D&D justice with a live-action movie, unless you have access to really good CGI, and that's not exactly cheap either. Animation lets you go a bit wild with the character designs, too, which might help with portraying larger-than-life characters like Minsc. (Though I would love to see two accomplished actors suffer through Jon's and Bodhi's ridiculous outfits.)

Plus, we really need more good Western animation so we can balance out Seth Woodbury MacFarlane.

I stumbled across this the other day and just finished getting through both threads thus far, so I wanted to take a moment to comment on how great it's been to read. The original Baldur's Gate novel has the dubious distinction of being one of the first books I read that I actually disliked and did not pick up again at the time of my most uncritical fantasy-reading period - even though I had no familiarity with the games at the time - so this has been a weird sort of memory trip. (And I really love the game dialogue being done through forum smileys, for some reason).

Hey there, and welcome to the thread(s)! :smallbiggrin: I'm having fun, but it's also a lot of work, so I'm always glad to hear when someone's enjoying the read.

Do you remember what your initial impression of the novel was? I'm kinda curious what it's like to read the novel without knowing the games themselves. Does the plot hold up at all, or not so much?

Meanwhile, back in the novel, we have arrived in Chapter Nineteen. You may have noticed that this book has twenty-seven chapters. That means that, yes, we will be spending eight chapters discussing the siege on (and subsequent liberation of) Suldanessellar. I hope you like elves, because there's a lot of elves in our future.

When we last saw our heroes, they set out on a multi-day journey to an elven war camp. The opening to Chapter Nineteen summarizes the journey: Jaheira is a bit melancholy, Yoshimo seems nervous, and Abdel is vaguely surprised that Yoshimo hasn't yet taken the opportunity to vanish into the forest. They reach the camp without further trouble, and I just realised that the elf/drow war has essentially been cancelled.

They'd been brought directly from the gate by the elf patrol leader to an enormous tree. As tired as they all were, they were anxious to warn the queen of the dangerous forces still rallying against her. (...)
The furnishings were spartan but well-crafted of wood and woven vines. The curved wall of the semicircular room was cut with delicate carvings of leaves sprouting from twisting vines. Against this backdrop stood a slim male elf in simple traveling leathers. At his belt was a sword that made the sellsword in Abdel practically drool. He'd only heard of them, but he was sure the weapon was a moonblade.

The slim male elf introduces himself as Elhan. While Abdel is busy lusting after Elhan's sword, the two elves have a quick chat in Elvish, then switch to Common for the benefit of the humans in the room.

"The queen is in danger," Jaheira said simply.
The elf smiled and said, "I am Elhan. And you are...”
Jaheira, flustered, said, "Jaheira ... a druid in the service of Mielikki."
"And the Harpers, of course," Elhan added for her.
Jaheira blushed and said, "I am not here on their behalf." She didn't question how this elf knew of her affiliation with the Harpers. Elf princes, apparently, just knew things like that.
"I am Yoshimo," the Kozakuran said, filling the uncomfortable gap as he so often did.

It's kind of a running gag in these books that everyone just knows Jaheira works for the Harpers. It's hard to tell if this is supposed to mean something in this instance. Elhan plays his cards very close to his chest. I can't tell if this is meaningful, which probably makes this a successful bit of writing, I guess?

Imoen and Abdel also introduce themselves, and Elhan goes all... oh right, you're the Bhaal guy. What's up, Bhaal guy?

Abdel turned to Elhan and said, "Suldanessellar is in danger. A powerful necromancer, a human named Jon Irenicus is hoping to perform some ritual—"
"Indeed," Elhan interrupted. "Irenicus is known to us. He has... my sister — Ellesime — has had a... relationship with this human for quite some time. They are linked in a way that I must be honest and say I don't fully understand. Ellesime herself senses only apathy from Irenicus, when she can feel him through this link. She is refusing to believe that he means her harm or even that he is responsible for sealing off Suldanessellar."

This is... something a divergence from the games. Elhan seems to be rather trusting, and he's revealing some information that is quite embarrassing to the elves.

The conversation quickly moves away from Irenicus. Elhan explains that the Swanmay's Glade has been sealed off, and the elves can't get back into their home. Abdel shrugs, and says that he's not really sure what he's doing here, but... maybe they can help with that?

Elhan smiled and nodded. "I think I can shed some light on all this for you, Abdel Adrian. I think our fates are bound together after all. I'm so glad you made it here. So very glad."

This is another nice bit of writing. Abdel only ever introduces himself as Abdel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mononymous_person), but Elhan adresses him as Abdel Adrian. Thus, he can be safely assumed to Know Things. It's surprisingly subtle by the standards of this book. There even was foreshadowing, for crying out loud. (In Chapter Fourteen, with Adalon.)

* * * * * *

You know what? This is kind of boring. Let's check in with Bodhi real quick. Irenicus asked her to keep the shards of some artifact safe; let's see how that is going.

Bodhi awoke early, as she often did, and stayed in her casket knowing the sun hadn't completely set. As had been the case over that last dozen days or more, she awoke thinking of Abdel. The feel of his hands on her body, his tongue in her mouth, their most intimate embrace, lingered in her in the most delicious way. (...) She stretched, and her elbow brushed past several loose pieces of cold metal. Irenicus had told her to keep these broken bits of some antique close to her. (...) She touched herself and closed her eyes, knowing that that night she would kill all of her assassins in Irenicus's name. She no longer cared that her fledgling guild would never serve her — one way or another, the son of Bhaal would instead fill that role.

Ahh, here it is: Vampire masturbation. I don't know how else one would interpret the comment that Bodhi "touched herself" while thinking about Abdel. The relevant bit of information is that Bodhi is keeping the shards of the Rynn Lanthorn (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Rynn_Lanthorn) in her coffin. And that she hopes Abdel will come and get them.

This is rather uncomfortable. It feels really obsessive to me, and I still can't figure out if this is deliberate. It's like one of those optical illusions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambiguous_image) where the picture changes every time you look at it - is Bodhi meant to be a creepy stalker, or is this intended to bolster Abdel's masculinity? I can't figure it out.

Let's get away from the creepy, creepy vampire.

* * * * * *

Back in the elven tree-camp, Elhan is still talking.

"Irenicus was responsible — Irenicus and Bodhi together — for the worst disaster ever to befall the city of Suldanessellar," Elhan explained. Abdel settled into his chair, happy to finally get some facts that he might use to make sense of all this mess, happy to feel calmer than he had in a long time. (...) "The Tree of Life... they attacked the Tree of Life itself."

Another subtle divergence: Book!Elhan mentions Bodhi by name, which is something Game!Elhan avoids. Book!Elhan is a lot more forthcoming in general. I hope you're all sitting comfortably - the rest of this chapter is all exposition. (With occasional pauses to sip from tallglasses of elven wine).

"And they got away with this?" Jaheira asked, her eyes wide.
Elhan smiled and shrugged. "We didn't think they did. They were punished according to the wishes of Ellesime. They got the opposite of what they desired. Great magic — High Magic — was used to make them human. They were stripped of their elven nature and sent away. Not only were they given mortality, but... forgive me," he said, nodding to the three humans in turn, "but they were to have only a handful of years to ponder their crimes before time would execute them for us."
"What was it he was looking for?" Abdel asked.
"Immortality," Jaheira whispered.

Irenicus actually had a pretty good life, Elhan explains. Elves aren't immortal, but they are very long-lived. Irenicus was one of the best mages in Faerûn and he was dating Elhan's sister - who happens to be Ellesime, queen of the elves. So how did it all go wrong? Well, a woman is always to blame.

"So what turned him?" Jaheira asked. "What could possibly make him betray her?"
"Bodhi," Elhan said flatly. "Though I'm loathe to attach all the responsibility to her. Still, where my sister and I believe Irenicus once had some pure intentions, I doubt Bodhi ever did. What it is about her that makes her ... I don't know, and maybe I don't want to. I will be satisfied believing she's simply an aberration."

At the mention of Bodhi, Abdel gets up from his chair. He walks over to a window and stares out at the forest canopy, fuming quietly. It's understandable.

Elhan qualifies his earlier statements a little, explaining that maybe his sister just wanted an excuse to not blame Irenicus for what he did. Whatever his motivations were, Irenicus did something rather terrible - he sought to drain life force directly from the Tree of Life itself. They stopped him, but the mere attempt was almost enough to kill everyone in Suldanessellar.

Abdel sighed and turned back into the room. "So what do we do about this?" he asked.
"They're going to try it again, aren't they?"
Elhan nodded. "I'm afraid that you and your sister have something to do with it this time, Abdel Adrian."
"Well," Abdel said, "I've been the center of an arcane ritual or two before, sir. I don't intend to have anything to do with this one."
"Good," the elf prince said sincerely. "Then there's something you'll need to do for us all."
"Tell me," Abdel said.
"Go back to Athkatla," Elhan directed, his eyes burning into Abdel's. "Find Bodhi, kill her, and bring back the pieces of the Rynn Lanthorn."

Yoshimo perks up at the mention of the Rynn Lanthorn, always eager to prove he's plot-relevant now. He confirms that - yeah, Bodhi has some bronze scraps. Irenicus gave her those for safekeeping, so they are probably important.

"What does this thing do?" Jaheira asked.
"It will put your souls back in order," Elhan said, "not to put too fine a point on it. It will suppress the avatar within you, Abdel, and it will save Imoen's life."
Abdel looked over at Imoen and noticed for the first time that the girl had fallen asleep or passed out. Her breathing was soft and regular, but she seemed pale, her eyes sunken, her lips gray.
"So I'm off to Athkatla," Abdel said quietly, not looking away from Imoen.
"We all are," Jaheira said.
"No," Abdel said quickly. "This I have to do by myself."
Abdel looked at Jaheira, and she nodded, a tear rolling slowly down one cheek.

And, just like that, the soul loss thing is suddenly back in the plot. Suffice to say, this isn't at all what the Rynn Lanthorn does in the game. Is this another divergence, or is Elhan deliberately fibbing here? It does seem a little too convenient. We'll find out soon...

... next time.

Next time, we escaped the Underdark. (Well, not "escaped" so much as "slaughtered our way through.") Today, we finally make it back to the surface. Welcome to CHAPTER VI, everyone.

https://s8.postimg.cc/y9fgsqi6d/VXkt_WG7.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/VXktWG7)

CHAPTER VI

Leaving Spellhold and following Irenicus and Bodhi, I ended up in the Underdark. There I learned that the pair had contrived to steal the eggs of Adalon, a silver dragon... and had bargained them to the dark elves in return for passage and perhaps a service I am unaware of. The dragon disguised me as a drow so that I could infiltrate Ust Natha, and through her efforts and mine, I was able to survive the Underdark, learning a bit of Irenicus and his plan along the way.

As near as I can figure, the actions of Irenicus nullified Adalon's influence as the guardian of an elven temple, and though the drow care little for conquest above ground, it has allowed them to deliver an insulting blow to the surface elves. The drow have now destroyed a very ancient and symbolic elven holy site, drawing a large elven force to secure the area and retaliate if necessary. Many have died on either side. Obviously, Irenicus plans to use the carnage to his advantage... but how?

I think the transition differs a bit, depending on how you handled things. I'm not sure.

https://s8.postimg.cc/mkbh4ryxh/A14z_A04.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/A14zA04)

The surfacers are equal parts impressed and confused.

🤺 C6ELF1: I speak the common tongue that you might hear and be warned! All that breach the surface will be fought back! Wait, you... you are no drow!
🤺 C6ELF1: But you travel with one among you! Are you collaborators? Have you betrayed us all to the darkness below?
:roy: CHARNAME: I am no collaborator, but I do not judge allies on their skin alone.
🤺 C6ELF1: A brave statement in time of battle. Your sentiments are true enough, but I will NOT trust you when you walk with the enemy.
🤺 C6ELF1: My commander shall decide your worth. You will be taken to him. Do not resist, I will not waste time when the deeds of Irenicus grow more foul each day.
:roy: CHARNAME: I will be watching my back through this. You will regret if this is a trap.
🤺 C6ELF1: Your fate will be decided shortly. You will remain under guard until Elhan sees you. Make no move; you will be watched closely.

I feel like the elves are seriously overestimating their chances of winning against us, but... sure, we'll play along. If these elves have intelligence about Irenicus, we should talk to them.

https://s8.postimg.cc/dpamu9hut/2_Rqil_MU.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/2RqilMU)

What a lovely welcome.

🤔 SOVALIDAAS: Welcome.
🤔 SOVALIDAAS: Yes... welcome.
🤔 SOVALIDAAS: I'll have you know I do not trust you. I have no reason to trust you. I do not feel that I *have* to trust you. No doubt the same applies from your perspective.
:roy: CHARNAME: I will be happy to aid you while on my own search for Jon Irenicus.
🤔 SOVALIDAAS: I see. You mention some very interesting names, names you could not know unless you were enemies of our enemies... or their friends.
🤔 SOVALIDAAS: I am undecided.
🤔 SOVALIDAAS: Elhan will see to you. He will make sure you are comfortable, and that you reveal what you must of yourself. He is experienced and... and he has knowledge of the enemy.
🤔 SOVALIDAAS: Mind that you obey him. Regardless of your intent, if you attack ANY of my elves here, I will have you killed on the spot. We are legion, rest assured.

One of the nice things about having a superior officer is that you can always pass the buck to them. Are we dangerous? Who knows. Elhan can deal with it.

https://s8.postimg.cc/qgot0rzcl/Z0_Cq8bd.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/Z0Cq8bd)

Our call has been escalated to L3 support.

:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: Well, I thank you for coming.
:roy: CHARNAME: Thank you for proving friendly. I was not looking forward to another fight.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: Yes, well, I am here to determine exactly what it is you *were* looking for. A battle may yet be warranted.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: I shall keep this brief, as I have little time to waste on you. A few questions are all I need, regardless.
:roy: CHARNAME: You will get no answers from me if I am to be your prisoner.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: I would advise you to answer truthfully and completely. No answer is an answer in itself, placing you firmly in league with our enemies.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: I will ask some things of you, and you will speak what you know. My sages will detect any falsehood. They are very good at that sort of thing.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: They will pay close attention to your next statement, especially since you are already damned for having a Drow traveling with you.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: Now then, something simple and direct to begin with. You emerged from the home of the Drow. Were you fleeing or are you in league with them?
:roy: CHARNAME: Oh sure, I have Viconia don't I? That means I *must* be a servant of the Drow.
🔮 C6WARSA1: False.
🔮 C6WARSA2: False. This person is no ally of the Drow.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: A lie, and had I believed it your death would be certain. You are fortunate my sages can see through such games.

Elhan, like any good L3 tech support worker, does not believe a single word that comes out of a caller's lie-hole. Hence the war-sages. (Also like any tech support person, he has not yet mastered the hu-man art of "sarcasm.")

https://s8.postimg.cc/qgot0s72d/CISYdox.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/CISYdox)

You can be as cooperative or as hostile as you want, but the peanut gallery makes sure Elhan always learns you're not working with Irenicus. So I'll be as much of a douchebag as possible, because that's funny.

:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: So you are not an ally of the Drow. That is fortunate, though it does not tell me of your current goals.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: Let us continue. A name, then, that you may know something of. Irenicus. Do you know of him?
:roy: CHARNAME: My business with Irenicus is my own concern.
🔮 C6WARSA1: Strong Truth.
🔮 C6WARSA2: Very much so. The association is clear.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: So you admit to knowledge of a fiend and criminal. I will have to push this further. Perhaps you are a window to his plans.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: Shall we try to determine how much you know, how far your association goes? Are you in league with Irenicus?
:roy: CHARNAME: Oh sure, I've chased him through the Underdark because I am in league with him.
🔮 C6WARSA1: A lie. There is no association.
🔮 C6WARSA2: I agree. They are not in league.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: You lie out of jest, I assume. Perhaps I should dismiss my sages and let you hang yourself? No more games, if you please. I don't have time for them.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: Nevertheless, I am glad to know you share no association with Irenicus. Such a relationship would have meant your death.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: This has put me more at ease. Whatever manner of creature you are, we are on the same side in this instance at least.
:roy: CHARNAME: It is as I told you. Why wouldn't you believe me to begin with?
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: You are certainly less of a threat than I first imagined, but do not think you are welcome as of yet. This area is still at risk, and I will not take chances.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: Especially since there is still the matter of the Drow you bring with you. I will return to her later, rest assured.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: For now, I will apprise you of the situation, and you will realize why travel in this area is to be restricted.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: You might have received a warmer welcome, but Irenicus has triggered the strongest of emotions where e'er he has tread.

You can be a jerk to Elhan all you want, he (and his war-sages) will eventually intuit the truth. At the same time, he isn't any nicer if you play along, so... eh.

Settle in, everyone, because Elhan is about to drop some exposition.

https://s8.postimg.cc/w4v3roj4l/ctr_RMzx.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/ctrRMzx)

Oh. Well that isn't good.

:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: He has stepped beyond all bounds of decency, and our very city is under the weight of his thumb. Suldanessellar is simply gone.
:thog: MINSC: Irenicus is the most vile of villains if he dared destroy a whole city! I can't believe that, and I have believed some amazing things, let me tell you!
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: It has only been concealed, but we cannot penetrate the magics that have hidden it. We are forced to remain here, pestered by Drow while supplies falter.
:roy: CHARNAME: He bears some great hatred for this city, and someone named Ellesime?
🔮 C6WARSA1: Truth.
🔮 C6WARSA2: Yes, <PRO_HESHE> knows much of this.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: It would seem your travels have given you quite a bit of insight into the plans Irenicus has made. I wonder if you might be of service to us.
:roy: CHARNAME: I might be. If you think you can trust me.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: You obviously bear no love for Irenicus, making you the enemy of our enemy. Classically speaking, this might make you our friend.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: And even if you are not, you cannot reach Irenicus without helping us. He is untouchable, save for one possibility.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: Within the temple was an artifact of great power: the Rhynn Lanthorn. It is an ancient lantern, etched with the oldest of runes.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: The Lanthorn is attuned to the Elven nation, and no magic can bar its return to elven lands. We could simply walk to Suldanessellar if we had possession of it.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: Someone stole the relic when the temple fell to the Drow. Obviously it was a servant of Irenicus capitalizing on the chaos of the battle.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: We have not been able to determine where the thief went, despite the best efforts of our sages. It makes me think that the Lanthorn is no longer in elven territory.
:roy: CHARNAME: It must have been Bodhi. Only she would have been trusted with such a thing.
🤺 C6ELF1: Truth.
:roy: CHARNAME: You are not helping the situation any, you know.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: Bodhi... hmm, you may know more than we about this situation after all. I propose we exchange our services.
:roy: CHARNAME: I have reservations about this. Why does Irenicus hate you and your city?
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: I cannot say more than I have. Perhaps if I had access to the city I would have insight, but as it stands, I am in the same situation you are.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: The attack came without warning, born in the mind of a human we did not know. This was not in the realm of possibility, and it remains as such.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: He has dealt with Drow, defiled our temple, and violated our city. His name is to be spit and spoken of as rarely as possible. He is all that elves are not!
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: If you know how to find the treacherous servant of this fiend, I suggest that you do it. You seek Irenicus, we seek Irenicus; to help us is to help yourself.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: Find the Lanthorn. Seek outside elven lands in whatever location you think an important servant of Irenicus would be. Only then will we reach this man.

Elhan isn't exactly being open with us. There are some hints here that he knows more than he's letting on. Unfortunately, we can't press him on this yet, but we'll get our chance.

CHARNAME doesn't really have a reason to believe that it's specifically Bodhi who has the lantern, but Irenicus isn't the friend-making type. So I guess it's fair to assume he'd be using his pre-existing minions.

https://s8.postimg.cc/xjwogerxh/2_Hs1_Aw_V.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/2Hs1AwV)

For now, let's see if we can get some stakes out of Elhan.

:roy: CHARNAME: I will need supplies, and I might need help facing Bodhi.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: We cannot march on human territory. As great as our problems are, they would only get worse if we appeared to be sending agents into the cities of Amn.
:thog: MINSC: Boo does not favor the odds, but I have no doubt we will succeed!
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: You have traveled extensively; return to the groups you have already encountered and ask their aid. I am sure you will find some among them to help you.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: They need not know the nature of the emergency, only that a great evil must be routed. The less who know of the shame brought by Irenicus, the better.
:roy: CHARNAME: Can you help with special supplies? Holy Water and stakes come to mind.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: I have such things. The water is exceptionally potent and will prove effective against those that wronged the temple. The wrath of elven gods is in each vial.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: It sounds as though you know the nature of the creature you must face. Your service is now doubly appreciated.
:roy: CHARNAME: Before I go, what did you say about shame? What shame has Irenicus caused you?
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: It is not your concern. His deeds will be apparent when we reach him. Until then, you should begin your task.
:roy: CHARNAME: I will begin immediately.

Journal entry:
The Elven city requires my aid.

Elhan has requested my service none too subtly. To reach Irenicus I must first help the elves gain entry to their own city, Suldanessellar. Irenicus has hidden it using illusionary magics of some sort that defy dispelling. If we are to regain access, I have to retrieve the Rhynn Lanthorn, an artifact lantern that is attuned to the elven nation. Elhan believes that someone powerful that follows Irenicus stole it from the desecrated elven temple, and I have a very clear idea just who that might be. I will not receive help from the elves in tracking her, even though I am certain I am familiar with her old stomping ground. Elhan has advised that he cannot follow with his battalions for risk of causing an even larger incident, this time with paranoid human forces. He suggested that I seek out allies among the groups I have already met within human territories.

This is interesting. I always thought it a bit odd that everyone just kind of assumes Bodhi would be in her old lair, but it's Elhan who brings up the idea. CHARNAME notes in their journal that they're certain she's in her old stomping grounds, but Elhan is clearly the one who mentioned it first. This is after claiming that his sages haven't been able to detect the lantern. That's another hint that he's not quite being honest with you - he might reasonably assume that the Lanthorn is in human lands, but how did he know it would be Amn? Tethyr is much closer. I was curious, so I merged (https://i.imgur.com/3vSE14X.png) the world maps of the games, using Watcher's Keep as the reference point, and... yeah, Saradush is right there.

As for the recruitment of allies... that feature is a little under-implemented. It would've been cool to go around the world, picking up allies and calling in favours, but that's not how it'll go down. More on this next time.

Elhan has one more request before we leave:

https://s8.postimg.cc/ca925kjcl/fvdv_IHo.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/fvdvIHo)

Well, it isn't really a request.

:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: We have talked long. I will make sure the guards know you are free to come and go.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: Unfortunately, I must bring up a final point of contention. I said I would return to the Drow, and now is the time. I will not allow her to accompany you.
:amused: VICONIA: I was wondering when you would give voice to the looks you have been giving me all eve. Poor Elhan, hating me so.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: You are an unhealthy risk. I will not allow it.
:roy: CHARNAME: I cannot do this without the group I am familiar with. She must go with me.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: Very well, there is one way that I will allow her to partake in our plans. She must first swear loyalty to you and your cause, <CHARNAME>.
:miko: JAHEIRA: Yes, declare your loyalty, Viconia. When you eventually betray us I will hold your statement up as proof of the unstrustworthy nature of your kind.
:thog: MINSC: Boo would have sensed any treachery long ago! She fights well with us!
:amused: VICONIA: Bah, such a statement is unnecessary. I am loyal. But if it will help your doubts, I do so swear my loyalty to this cause.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: And she must agree to a Geas. That is the only way.
:amused: VICONIA: Your distrust is such that you require magical bonds to ensure I commit no treachery? I wonder if the drow are the only elves with darkened hearts.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: Such talk does not endear me to you. Do you agree or do you not?
:amused: VICONIA: Very well. Have your spells cast and secure my will to the task. I imagine spitting on you for the indignity will be restricted as well? A pity.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: With the casting of this spell all my doubt is removed. Viconia, you are bound to the task and I fear no treachery. Let death be the threat if I am wrong.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: <CHARNAME>, I wish you well in your goals. All Suldanessellar depends upon your success.

I think this is purely a visual effect. While a spell effect is forced, it's called "FLASHY_1." You can, I think, still remove Viconia from your party with no ill effects.

There's nothing left to do here. Maybe they'll be more helpful after we retrieve the Lanthorn. Let's get right on that...

https://s8.postimg.cc/z95roa505/g_TSb4_XZ.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/gTSb4XZ)

... next time.

(In case you were curious: Yes, Aerie still says wacky things (https://i.imgur.com/hNS91xG.png).)

There's one thing that's immediately striking about this chapter: Game!Elhan and Book!Elhan are quite different. They serve similar narrative roles, but Book!Elhan is a lot more helpful than Game!Elhan, to the point where he actually volunteers information about Bodhi and Irenicus. This is not something Book!Elhan is willing to do. (I did jerk him around a bit, but he's just as cold if you play nice. There's no way to truly offend him because then the plot wouldn't work.)

The information in qustion is highly embarassing to the elves, no less. As we'll see in a few chapters, Game!Elhan throws a huge hissy-fit when you press him for information about Bodhi and Irenicus, to the point where he'll deny that the two can't possibly have ever been real elves, given the crimes they commited. His defensiveness makes sense - the plot of Shadows of Amn is ultimately the fault of the Suldanessellar elves, and elves do not react well to being called out. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CantArgueWithElves)

We'll discuss this later, though, when the confrontation with Elhan actually happens. I did want to note that Elhan is a lot more cooperative, though, because it's part of an established pattern. As always, the narrative makes sure that Abdel has to do no real critical thinking and no real investigation. He's faced with one probem at a time, he's always kept firmly pointed towards the next goal, and he uncritically accepts any and all information that's presented to him. Par for the course.

Also, I would like to call attention to the fact that there doesn't seem to actually be... you know... a war. In the book, we've seen no hints of a drow incursion. There's a war camp, but no actual fighting seems to be going on. This, once again, changes the whole context of the chapter. In the game, Irenicus hired the drow to stage, essentially, a distraction - draw most of the troops out of Suldanessellar, seal it off from the outside world, then pick off the remaining defenders. In the book, it appears he just kinda... walked into Suldanessellar?

Maybe this will start making sense in the next couple of chapters.

This is another chapter where I can't really think of a good AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION since... not much happens. Also, the discussion about the miniseries is still going strong, and I've really enjoyed reading along with that. (Sorry I don't tend to post much in between updates - I'm more of a lurker, heh.) So I'm declaring this an OPEN THREAD for the rest of the week. If you do need a discussion starter, though: It could be interesting to talk about the surface elves, maybe. They are definitely in a situation where you'd expect them to be sympathetic, since they are getting invaded and all, but they seem to go out of their way to be jerks to Team CHARNAME. How do you feel about them? Did your opinions change after learning the truth about Irenicus' backstory and why he is kind of their fault?

Kish

2018-04-28, 06:14 AM

If you don't mention what you need at all, Elhan still presses holy water and stakes on you; you can call him on knowing much more about who you're going to face than he admits, but he responds evasively. Then later, when he comes back, he brings up Bodhi's name and that she's a vampire, and you have lines to point out that you never mentioned her name, and that you never said you were going to face a vampire, if those things are true.

Maryring

2018-04-28, 08:40 AM

The worst part about this part of the game is that you're not allowed to kill the elven warcamp. Because good grief I hate Elhan and his cronies more than Irenicus. Irenicus at least makes for an interesting and amusing villain. Elhan and the elves sound and act like intrusive DMPCs who are so totally awesome and you can't beat them at all gaiz that it's... frustrating. Really frustrating. Also, the elves are pretty awful in Shadows over Amn and I'm really glad that you have a personal stake in getting your soul back because otherwise I wouldn't have cared about the final chapter at all. If anything I'd be more inclined to help Irenicus because elves are the very worst.

Kish

2018-04-28, 08:47 AM

Maryring has just illustrated exactly why I find my reaction to Elhan...complicated.

If I wasn't online, it would probably start and end at "wow, these people are jerks."

Unfortunately, I can't not be aware of the large fan contingent who think being rude to their PCs should be punishable by death. And, ironically, that has the effect, in my view, of justifying Elhan's elves' attitude: it makes sense for them to treat you like a racist psychopath who would attack if they didn't keep you at weapon-point constantly if that's what you are. At this point, I pretty much just shrug at that whole exchange.

Maryring

2018-04-28, 08:56 AM

Being rude is one thing. Plenty NPCs are rude or insufferable and I don't hurt them over that. But there are multiple problems with Elhan and his incredible rudeness is one thing. Another thing is the fact that these are people who absolutely refuse to take responsibility for what they did with Bodhi and Irenicus. They're racist, dismissive, use threaths and coercion in order to make you do what they want and the game never calls them out on this, instead making any kind of objection on the player's part result in death. They are horrible in so many ways, and to reduce my complaint about them to "they're rude" is in itself rude and dismissive.

Spore

2018-04-28, 02:41 PM

Thus, he can be safely assumed to Know Things. It's surprisingly subtle by the standards of this book.

Actually it's the book saying: "You know what? The exposition drop we usually have in the beginning of segments? Screw that, we assume the prince knows EVERYTHING!"

https://i.imgur.com/nLyt69N.png

I hope you're all sitting comfortably - the rest of this chapter is all exposition.

Or not.

"It will put your souls back in order," Elhan said, "not to put too fine a point on it. It will suppress the avatar within you, Abdel, and it will save Imoen's life."

How extremely convenient? Does it come with an Ending Machine (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/discussion.php?id=e7axozuja3k0flcwdgtbxufg)?

A winner is you! (or will be you)

is Bodhi meant to be a creepy stalker, or is this intended to bolster Abdel's masculinity? I can't figure it out.

We are talking about a hypermasculine fantasy where men don't feel threatened or feel emotions at all, actually. Other than horny, angry and hungry.

CHARNAME: I will be watching my back through this. You will regret if this is a trap.

Is Charname always this gruff? I know he is threatened with swords and is basically betrayed at every step but come on. Be a bit more "videogame-y". Am I this used to blank-eyed emotionless protagonists?

CHARNAME: I will be happy to aid you while on my own search for Jon Irenicus.

Or...Charname is just a prick to everyone that does not at least command a few men.

ELHAN: You lie out of jest, I assume. Perhaps I should dismiss my sages and let you hang yourself? No more games, if you please. I don't have time for them.

Ah, we have him back. Sarcastic Charname is my favorite.

It could be interesting to talk about the surface elves, maybe. They are definitely in a situation where you'd expect them to be sympathetic, since they are getting invaded and all, but they seem to go out of their way to be jerks to Team CHARNAME. How do you feel about them? Did your opinions change after learning the truth about Irenicus' backstory and why he is kind of their fault?

Yes, but they are ELVES! I have yet to see a fantasy setting where (tolkienesque) elves are deeply trusting towards 'lesser races'. Even if Charname is elven, you are bound to have a few non-elves with you. This plus the fact that treachery and sacrilege where their society's downfall, I can see how a rag-tag group of adventurers don't enjoy the majority of intel.

Assuming they know how Charname or Abdel is, his group still looks like he trusts everyone who throws in their towel to follow them, particularly the following:
1) a drow priestess
2) a madman talking to a hamster
3) a red wizard of Thay
4) a weird tinker gnome that just might burn down half of the city
5) a werewolf man
6) a sheltered noble woman

Imagine how these look to a well trained army (if we take away the character levels for that of course).

Honest Tiefling

2018-04-28, 06:06 PM

4) a weird tinker gnome that just might burn down half of the city

Tinker gnomes existed in Forgotten Realms? Probably one of the better retcons.

Through, reading this:

1) Does Bodhi have a sink in that coffin? Otherwise...Eew. That's going to be an unpleasant soul restoration.

2) Good job, Adbel. You didn't notice your sister until Prince Ex'pos'tion pointed it out. Then again, he can't exactly stick his longsword into that.

Kish

2018-04-28, 06:10 PM

Honest Tiefling

2018-04-28, 06:22 PM

Jan's not a tinker gnome. He's a gnome...who happens to be a tinker. His inventions reliably work, and while his answers to questions about them are likely to drive you insane, that's because he has an arcane sense of humor, not because he couldn't explain them if he chose.

Oh. Well, I feel like the elves would be pretty justified in killing your party and burning down Amn just to make sure if he really was a tinker gnome.

Through, I admit that the ability to kill DMPCs is in fact warranted, I think I lean to Kish on the issue of Elhan. Even if you were evil, Elhan is going to be useful against Irenicus even if he's acting like a huge jerk. He's also seeing his home being destroyed, friends and family murdered by monsters, and the fate of his people being threatened would probably make him a bit undiplomatic. Sure, he's being a donkey cavity, but the game never presents the elves as being good or morally right for screwing everything up.

Maryring

2018-04-28, 06:41 PM

You mean the same fate the elves trust on humans by stripping Jon and Bodhi of their elvenhood but not their powers before sending them to human lands?

Yeah no. I have nothing but loathing for the elves.

Mordokai

2018-04-29, 02:00 AM

Oh. Well, I feel like the elves would be pretty justified in killing your party and burning down Amn just to make sure if he really was a tinker gnome.

Being unfamiliar with tinker gnomes, I would kindly ask you to elaborate on this. Because to me, it seems nothing other than a case of fantastic racism. And yes, I realize these are elves we're talking about, but still.

Spore

2018-04-29, 05:29 AM

Jan's not a tinker gnome. He's a gnome...who happens to be a tinker. His inventions reliably work, and while his answers to questions about them are likely to drive you insane, that's because he has an arcane sense of humor, not because he couldn't explain them if he chose.

He is also a thief. I feel this is the engine trying to emulate someone skilled with tools rather than an assassin or a pickpocket, but he needs money for his own business as per his intro sequence.

You mean the same fate the elves trust on humans by stripping Jon and Bodhi of their elvenhood but not their powers before sending them to human lands?

Yeah no. I have nothing but loathing for the elves.

Which powers? Irenicus is a wizard. That is aquired skill, not granted power. Similarly, Bodhi is a rogue or assassin, again skill, not power.

There is no way they could have drawn their powers. I think you need Elminster or another chosen of Mystra to exclude Irenicus from the Weave.

Keltest

2018-04-29, 07:17 AM

Being unfamiliar with tinker gnomes, I would kindly ask you to elaborate on this. Because to me, it seems nothing other than a case of fantastic racism. And yes, I realize these are elves we're talking about, but still.

Tinker Gnomes are the flavor of gnome native to the Dragonlance setting. They speak extremely quickly using far more words than is necessary and compulsively tinker and invent things that never work correctly. For example, their solution to the problem of how to rapidly ascend multiple levels in their mountain home is... catapults and nets.

And when I say they never work correctly, I mean it literally. They came about as a result of a curse by the god of blacksmiths to have a desire to invent things but the inability to do it well. As a species, they are completely incapable of being efficient by their own volition.

Mordokai

2018-04-29, 09:42 AM

Tinker Gnomes are the flavor of gnome native to the Dragonlance setting. They speak extremely quickly using far more words than is necessary and compulsively tinker and invent things that never work correctly. For example, their solution to the problem of how to rapidly ascend multiple levels in their mountain home is... catapults and nets.

And when I say they never work correctly, I mean it literally. They came about as a result of a curse by the god of blacksmiths to have a desire to invent things but the inability to do it well. As a species, they are completely incapable of being efficient by their own volition.

Ok, that sounds pretty annoying, I agree, but I still don't see why that would merit the wipe out of entire city from the elven side, on account of one bad apple... or gnome, as the case may be.

Can I assume I failed my Sense Sarcasm check and all our resident tiefling was doing was simply playing a little tongue-in-cheek?

In any case, thanks for your explanation. Learn something new every day.

Keltest

2018-04-29, 10:31 AM

Ok, that sounds pretty annoying, I agree, but I still don't see why that would merit the wipe out of entire city from the elven side, on account of one bad apple... or gnome, as the case may be.

Can I assume I failed my Sense Sarcasm check and all our resident tiefling was doing was simply playing a little tongue-in-cheek?

In any case, thanks for your explanation. Learn something new every day.

Like Kender, tinker gnomes have a reputation for being extremely disruptive and generally a real pain. He's exaggerating, but only slightly, the impulse most people, in character and out, have when encountering a tinker gnome.

Honest Tiefling

2018-04-29, 10:48 AM

Ok, that sounds pretty annoying, I agree, but I still don't see why that would merit the wipe out of entire city from the elven side, on account of one bad apple... or gnome, as the case may be.

A bit, but it's also due to the fact that tinker gnomes have really good trolling potential. Your inventions NEVER can work, so you can constantly screw up the party, usually with explosions. Add into the fact that Dragonlance became so popular that people didn't actually know how gnomes in other settings (such as Forgotten Realms) are supposed to be, and well...Kender-Lite.

Like Kender, tinker gnomes have a reputation for being extremely disruptive and generally a real pain. He's exaggerating, but only slightly, the impulse most people, in character and out, have when encountering a tinker gnome.

I probably should have just quoted this.

Maryring

2018-04-29, 03:53 PM

He is also a thief. I feel this is the engine trying to emulate someone skilled with tools rather than an assassin or a pickpocket, but he needs money for his own business as per his intro sequence.

Which powers? Irenicus is a wizard. That is aquired skill, not granted power. Similarly, Bodhi is a rogue or assassin, again skill, not power.

There is no way they could have drawn their powers. I think you need Elminster or another chosen of Mystra to exclude Irenicus from the Weave.

Don't be obtuse. There's plenty ways that they could have limited the damage they could have done. A geas that prevents slaughter, kidnapping and torture of innocents is a bare minimum, and that's before you get into things like cursed anti-magic collars. Making Irenicus incapable of casting a cantrip doesn't require something as drastic as excluding him from the Weave entirely.

Ultimately, the elves did nothing to render them any less dangerous, pushed them over on another nation, and didn't even bother to warn the local government somehow. Through criminal neglect, they're responsible for all the pain and suffering Bodhi and Irenicus inflicted on Amn, and so I have little patience for the elves.

Khay

2018-04-30, 04:19 AM

You know, I'm not entirely sure if there is a (safe) way to exile or imprison a mage that doesn't involve sealing their powers away somehow. Irenicus has 9th-level spell slots; he'll always get out eventually, even if it takes a few Wishes.

That said, a geas would've been the least they could've done. "Never harm a living soul except in self-defense" or something. Have it fail because they gave it an escape clause or because Irenicus has cronies like Rielev or because he is so delusional that he genuinely doesn't perceive other people as... well, people. Or something.

Kish

2018-04-30, 07:27 AM

Irenicus could simply Wish a geas away; he's more powerful than any other spellcaster in the Realms except Elminster.

If they were thinking in terms of him doing more harm they needed to kill him. But Ellesime was thinking in terms of him repenting and making restitution, and she didn't take other possibilities into account.

Khay

2018-04-30, 08:25 AM

I'm a bit unsure how a Geas works, to be honest. Could you include a clause about not removing the Geas? Would that do anything? Or does it just introduce another Wish step into the process?

Honestly, the main surprise with this ridiculous scheme the elves set up is that it took so long to backfire.

NRSASD

2018-04-30, 08:28 AM

About Irenicus- I'm pretty sure the elves already did that. Irenicus is powerful enough and has enough connections that nothing short of disintegrating him or removing him from the Weave is going to stop him from lifting any magical restrictions that might be placed on him. They didn't want to kill him outright (out of mercy or vengeance it's not clear, probably both) and they can't remove him from the Weave, so yeah. That's where they are.

They stripped away his immortality and dumped him in a ditch, figuring that would kill him; which it probably would have if he were anyone but Irenicus. Really the only other two options are to store him in a secret island prison for mages (and we know how well that worked out), or to kill him. Since he takes over a sizeable piece of Hell (or is it the Abyss?) later on, I'm not sure how well that would work either.

About Tinker Gnomes- I loved seeing them in the books, but I was 13 when I read them. I don't know how well they've aged. I like having a good grip on what my party's relative power is when I DM, so I'd probably ban them because they're either super disruptive or super effective, with nothing in between.

About Elhan- I felt bad for him and his troops, so I pardoned any rudeness we ran into (and they were pretty rude). Given the circumstances, Elhan certainly wasn't over reacting. If a known war criminal and general showed up at the helm of your absolute worst enemies and then he blows right past you and cuts off all communications with your homeland, I'd be pretty "shoot first, ask questions never" too.

Kish

2018-04-30, 09:34 AM

Since he takes over a sizeable piece of Hell (or is it the Abyss?) later on,
Either this is treating the (rather horrible and, shall we say, excessively sympathetic to Irenicus) Redemption mod as official or you've misunderstood something somewhere.

Irenicus' power in a Lower Plane is limited to contesting with you for ownership of Bhaal's planar realm because he has your soul--a contest he loses. Once he's dead, he's completely powerless there; the end-movie of SoA shows him trying to blast a fiend and discovering that he no longer has any magical powers.

Maryring

2018-04-30, 09:55 AM

Not if the geas included stipulations against Irenicus removing the geas from himself. Furthermore, considering the nature of his crime, they could have beseeched Corellon for a specifically crafted curse. And again, this is before you get into invasive but effective tools like operating an object with a permanent anti-magic field into his body. They should have done something. Anything. And the argument of thinking of redemption falls flat because they drained him of emotions. The ability to feel guilt or shame. It's the moral equivalent of taking a known mass murderer, damaging the emotional centre of his brain, and then dropping him off near a native jungle tribe without stripping him of his guns and knives.

Ellesime really dropped the ball and someone should've made her have to Speak With Dead for each and every person needlessly butchered by Irenicus. I'd love to see her explain to them why banishing Irenicus was the right thing to do.

NRSASD

2018-04-30, 11:34 AM

@Kish- Since I've never heard of the Redemption mod and only played the original games, it's definitely a misunderstanding on my part. Sorry about that. It's been far too long since I've played them!

My point still stands though, Irenicus is not to be underestimated. Any reasonable safeguards cannot be considered sufficient when it comes to dealing with him.

@Maryring- We're straying waaay into the realms of hypotheticals here, but here's my take on it. If I understand your point correctly (and please correct me if I'm not!), you're saying that the elves treated this situation without enough concern. That offscreen, beyond the scope of the game, the elves just took Irenicus' soul and dumped him in Amn with nary a second thought. Hence why all the destruction that follows in his wake is ultimately the elves' fault.

I think that the elves tried to neutralize Irenicus but severely screwed up. They did get a specially designed divine curse placed on him to remove his soul. We have no idea what other safeguards they may have put in place to control or mitigate him, because ultimately, they all failed. I'd be surprised if the elves just turned him loose, but given how much of a sap Ellesime seems to be they might have. Regardless of whether the elves cursed him, geased him, or locked him in a coffin and shot him into orbit, it's obvious it wasn't enough.

Maryring, you and I are looking at the ruins of a bombed out house. You're accusing the builder of not making a bomb resistant house, while I'm saying they probably tried; but the smoking crater is all the proof we need to know that whatever their intentions, they clearly failed.

Honest Tiefling

2018-04-30, 05:43 PM

There's also the point to be made that Ellesime (and possibly Lord Jerkears, but I am not looking up his name) made the decision. Is it even noted if the rest of the elves even knew the specifics? I mean, do you really tell Kelvhan the Master Baker what is going on with the queen's ex?

Spore

2018-04-30, 10:51 PM

Once he's dead, he's completely powerless there; the end-movie of SoA shows him trying to blast a fiend and discovering that he no longer has any magical powers.

He made no bargain and holds no clerical power, resulting in him just being a petitioner like any other dead souls. I feel he does not follow the Seldarine, so actually he should be brought to Kelemvor's Wall of the Faithless. More likely is that by absorbing our soul he attunes for Bhaal's afterlife, so he is drawn to Hell.

Is it even noted if the rest of the elves even knew the specifics?

I agree. I think at least some elves would have protested because even by snobby elven standards this punishment is beyond short sighted (actually ESPECIALLY by snobby elven standards).

Cazero

2018-05-01, 04:44 AM

I mean, do you really tell Kelvhan the Master Baker what is going on with the queen's ex?
The queen's ex? No.
But the public enemy #1 who just attempted to destroy your city, lifestyle, racial mods and culture? Everyone probably wants to know.

Spore

2018-05-01, 06:25 AM

The queen's ex? No.
But the public enemy #1 who just attempted to destroy your city, lifestyle, racial mods and culture? Everyone probably wants to know.

Ellisime: We have a fate worse than death for him!
Random Elf #1: What is it? Eternal torture in the Nine Hells?
#2: Do you slowly let a dryad's tree grow into him?
#3: Let his liver be eaten by ants and then cast regrowth on him at dawn?
Ellisime: :sabine: Worse! We de-elfify him! We make him a human with pointy ears.
*All gasp loudly*
#1: You can't.
#2: You wouldn't.
#3: So cruel...!

Something tells me Faerun moon elves see not being an elf anymore as physical and mental torture...

Kish

2018-05-01, 06:58 AM

NRSASD

2018-05-01, 08:09 AM

Keltest

2018-05-01, 08:13 AM

So here's something that's been bugging me since we brought up the topic. If the elves removed Irenicus' soul, or at least enough of it that he had to steal the Bhaalspawn's soul to replace... where is it? What kind of insane power would it hold? It seems like a bit of a missed opportunity to not find his soul in game.

The elven afterlife? Sitting in a little jar in the Queen's bedroom? Placed into some poor elven child who had his soul stolen by the drow? I don't think they necessarily had to *do* anything with it once it was out of Irenicus. Heck, they could have put it in a little lantern and hung it from the tree as a reminder of his hubris. Its not like its harder for him to get to any given location in the city, at least from their perspective.

Maryring

2018-05-01, 08:30 AM

See, that's another thing that makes me shrug at complaints about the elves:

The common playerbase treatment of "we stripped him of everything that was elven" as identical to "we made him human."

You can't both legitimately complain about another sapient race looking down on you and treat your own race as some kind of universal default!

Can you just stop misrepresenting people's arguments? It's getting incredibly tiresome and your arrogance is not appreciated. It's the elves that continually compare Irenicus to a human, more specifically his life-span. They already direct the conversation by making "an elf without his elfiness is a human" the norm. And even here the only one who put forth that argument did so in a joke.

Which isn't getting in on how these two stances are honestly distinct. Humanity as a default is a result of the fact that different sapient races do not, to our knowledge, exist in the real world and so we only have ourselves as a point of reference with which to compare cultures. Racism however does exist and does indeed get a whole lot of legitimate pushback in the current world.

So if anything, the stance do in fact empower one another. "An elf without his cultural heirtage (and long lifespan) is just a human. So therefore dismissing a whole race as lesser when the differences are so small is nonsensical and arrogant."

@NRSASD: Thing is, we do know what was done to him. The special elfiness-stripping curse and nothing else. And that's a curse they should know wouldn't touch his considerable arcane powers because there's nothing inherently elfy about accessing the Weave. All other races can do it. They stripped him of all that made him able to empathise and consider others. In the game Jon states several times that where there should be feelings there's just... nothing. A great big hole of apathy. We're not just looking at a bombed out house. We're looking at a bombed out house of straw, and I'm cursing the builder for not using brick instead. Could the house still have been bombed out? Certainly. In fact, for our story to progress it has to have been bombed somehow. But at least at that point I could admit that the builder at least tried to protect those who would live in the house. As is, ms "I get to be connected to the Tree Jon tried to claim" Ellesime allows her own fondness for the worst terrorist in Elven history to weigh more heavily than the incredible risk Jon poses to everyone.

And that's terrible.

Keltest

2018-05-01, 09:22 AM

@NRSASD: Thing is, we do know what was done to him. The special elfiness-stripping curse and nothing else. And that's a curse they should know wouldn't touch his considerable arcane powers because there's nothing inherently elfy about accessing the Weave. All other races can do it. They stripped him of all that made him able to empathise and consider others. In the game Jon states several times that where there should be feelings there's just... nothing. A great big hole of apathy. We're not just looking at a bombed out house. We're looking at a bombed out house of straw, and I'm cursing the builder for not using brick instead. Could the house still have been bombed out? Certainly. In fact, for our story to progress it has to have been bombed somehow. But at least at that point I could admit that the builder at least tried to protect those who would live in the house. As is, ms "I get to be connected to the Tree Jon tried to claim" Ellesime allows her own fondness for the worst terrorist in Elven history to weigh more heavily than the incredible risk Jon poses to everyone.

And that's terrible.

To the best of my knowledge, the game never actually specifically states that Irenicus is unable to feel positive emotion because of the curse, or that it was a deliberate outcome. Theres a lot of game, so I could have missed it, but it wasn't obvious if it was there. And before his exile, Jon was ambitious, but not outright malevolent. Its not a reasonable conclusion that he would go on to blow a crater in the middle of a crowded marketplace, ally with the Drow (who should hate him by default) acquire a Bhallspawn soul or do several of the other unlikely things he does in the game.

Calemyr

2018-05-01, 12:02 PM

To the best of my knowledge, the game never actually specifically states that Irenicus is unable to feel positive emotion because of the curse, or that it was a deliberate outcome. Theres a lot of game, so I could have missed it, but it wasn't obvious if it was there. And before his exile, Jon was ambitious, but not outright malevolent. Its not a reasonable conclusion that he would go on to blow a crater in the middle of a crowded marketplace, ally with the Drow (who should hate him by default) acquire a Bhallspawn soul or do several of the other unlikely things he does in the game.

I think they indicate strongly that it's old age wrecking Irenicus. The way I've always understood it was that Irenicus is suffering from a rough equivalent to Alzheimer's - he's becoming disconnected from his memories and losing control over his emotions. His rant at Ellesime, Clone!Ellesime's rant at the party, and the Dryad's pleas to the party all show how badly he's losing it. As he put to Ellesime, he at first clung to the emotion, then the memory of the emotion, then the memory of the memory. As Clone!Ellesime ranted, Irenicus is desperately trying to cling to the dying embers of the one positive relationship that he remembers, and growing extremely angry as it continues to fade anyway. Even the Dryads, beings with unreal beauty and the supernatural ability to charm mortals, can't move him. One way to read the Dryad's bit is that he's also no longer to be... uh... physically moved by beauty, either. The past loses all meaning to him and it's only the present, the continuing decay of his mind and the growing outrage at his punishment, that holds weight. Where he once treated the damage his scheme would do to the pantheon was a risk, it's now considered a side benefit.

Spore

2018-05-01, 02:40 PM

In all fairness, and jokes aside, I feel Irenicus' disconnect from the elven life spring dampens his positive emotions. Yes he still revels in his victories but those are strong emotions for him anyhow. But everything else is speculation. We do not know much of Irenicus' personality before the - let's call it - schism; except that he apparently was neutral evil before (power hungry to the point of risking genocide).

ti'esar

2018-05-02, 11:53 PM

Hey there, and welcome to the thread(s)! :smallbiggrin: I'm having fun, but it's also a lot of work, so I'm always glad to hear when someone's enjoying the read.

Do you remember what your initial impression of the novel was? I'm kinda curious what it's like to read the novel without knowing the games themselves. Does the plot hold up at all, or not so much?

It was a really long time ago, but I remember feeling like it was kind of slapdash plotting. Characters seemed to show up, leave, and/or die at random without any clear story purpose, and the ending was bizarrely abrupt. (I also thought the characterization seemed largely bad even at the time, but that's sort of a different issue).

Khay

2018-05-05, 09:56 AM

We will learn a little about Irenicus' past in the coming chapters, but his post-Suldanessalar life remains a little obscure. The only time we really learn anything about it is during the starter dungeon, I think. You can find a few things that imply Irenicus was trying to hold on to his past self, like with Rielev (https://i.imgur.com/nSTbxHc.png), the fancy elven bedroom (https://i.imgur.com/fKigucY.png) and the dryads (https://i.imgur.com/6EDFBxw.png) / clones (https://i.imgur.com/T3EirBa.png), but he seems to have suffered a lot of motive decay. The stasis tanks and clone chamber have both turned into torture experiments and he seems to have no idea as to what one would actually do with dryads. It's possible that this is a symptom of his early-onset dementia and not a side effect of the soul extraction, but the elven gods made up the curse specifically for him, so I'm not sure.

Last time, we made it back to the surface and received a mission from Elhan: Recover the Rhynn Lanthorn so we can get into Suldanessalar and give Irenicus a good swording. Chapter Twenty shows us... well, pretty much exactly that. We are entering the final quarter of the book, so it's time to start resolving all those dangling plot threads.

The "relationship" between Abdel and Bodhi is brought up again in this chapter, so here's a content note for further discussion of dubious consent.

Last time, Abdel was sent on a mission to retrieve the pieces of the Lanthorn from Bodhi's hideout, back in Athkatla. But how is he going to get there in time?

Difficult as it was for him to believe, Abdel was actually starting to get used to teleporting.
He never really thought of himself as the teleporting sort. It was something mages, phaerimm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaerimm), demons, and gods did. He was the kind of man who got paid to guard warehouses or walk next to trade caravans with a big sword in his hand. He traveled the old fashioned way. (...) Instantaneously shifting hundreds of miles in less than a second in a flash of magical light made him dizzy, and he really felt as if he wasn't in control, which is something that bothered him more than anything else.
But then he hadn't been in control of anything in his life for a long time now, so maybe that was it.

Magic, that's how! Elhan has access to mages, and one of them teleported Abdel straight to Amn.

Credit where credit is due: This is a good way to open a chapter. It's a good way to set the scene, and it's lightly snarky without being 2wacky4u. I'm getting some real Journal!CHARNAME vibes from this whole paragraph.

Abdel takes stock of his surroundings, finding himself in the Copper Coronet's basement.

He could hear footsteps crossing the floor above his head and the sound of a chair being pulled across it. A mumbled voice clearly said, "All done, Boo," and Abdel knew he was in the right place. He stood on the exact spot where he had made love with Bodhi. She'd hypnotized him. He told himself that again, though he didn't believe it.

I just. I can't figure this out. We know that their encounter wasn't consensual. The way Abdel behaves later implies that he blames himself for the encounter, though. This could be self-blaming behaviour, which would be awful but realistic. On the other hand, it could also be an excuse to have some relationship drama, with the author not quite realising how monstrous this is. I can't figure this one out. Help.

The cellar is empty, so Abdel starts exploring. After poking around in the darkness for a while, he finds a heavy wooden trapdoor in a corner.

He slid the sword behind his back, and his right hand found the carved wooden stake tucked into his belt. The elves had given it to him. It was carved from a windblown branch, a branch of a tree in the forest of Tethir, on the edge of the sealed, doomed city of Suldanessellar. (...) The space below was lit by three candles flickering in a very old candelabra made for six. (...) The place smelled of mildew and rat droppings, and the only thing down there besides the candelabra and Abdel was an empty coffin. The fact that it was empty filled Abdel with misplaced relief.

Bodhi is nowhere to be found, and neither are the bronze scraps he's looking for, so Abdel heads for the stairs.

* * * * *

You may have noticed that Abdel seems to be alone. That's because he is - ever the tactical genius, he left the rest of the party behind in the elven camp at Wealdeath. We'll use this opportunity to check in with Jaheira and company.

Imoen was asleep again, laying under an amazingly sturdy lean-to the elves had woven of vines, sticks, and leaves. Jaheira sat over her, one hand holding her holy symbol and the other on Imoen's forehead. The prayer came to an end, but where there should have been a surge of healing power there was nothing. (...) "Phaere..." Imoen mumbled in her sleep.
"She's dying," Yoshimo said from behind her, startling Jaheira.
"Yes," Jaheira said, not looking back at him.

Imoen is having a very different reaction to the ritual than Abdel did. While Abdel was showing ragemonster symptoms from the start, Imoen was basically fine for the last fifteen days, but now she's suddenly on death's door. Yoshimo and Jaheira make some small talk about the banality of evil, when things suddenly go all The Exorcist.

Jaheira gently pulled the rag off Imoen's head.
"Abdel will save her?" Yoshimo asked. He seemed happy enough to change the subject.
"Abdel?" Imoen murmured in her sleep.
Jaheira gently touched her shoulder, and Imoen's eyes popped open.
"Abdel!" she said, her voice clear and loud in the quiet of the elf camp.
"He'll be here," Jaheira told her. "He'll—"
"Silence!" Imoen growled, her voice deeper now and coarse. Her eyes flashed yellow, and Jaheira gasped. Imoen sat up in a burst of motion, and Jaheira felt a hand grab her and pull her back. Imoen's jaws snapped in the air in front of Jaheira's face as if the girl was trying to bite her.
"Imoen—" Jaheira said.
"She's not herself," Yoshimo whispered.
Imoen laughed, and it wasn't her usual pleasant giggle. "Who am I, Kozakuran?"
"Bhaal..." Jaheira answered for him.
As if in response, Imoen fell back onto the bed of leaves and was asleep.

This is kiiind of similar to the way the curse is portrayed in the game, I think. Imoen never goes into Slayer mode, but the loss of her soul does cause her to start wasting away. Something similar happens here, but... well... she hasn't actually lost her soul yet? I am confused about the mechanics of all this.

* * * * *

We rejoin Abdel in the middle of a Diplomacy check.

Abdel pulled the punch he threw into Gaelan Bayle's midsection, which was the only reason Bayle survived. (...)
"Oh," Minsc breathed, "I'm sure that did hurt, Boo."
Abdel looked over at the red-haired madman and said, "You need to go for a walk or something, Minsc. The Copper Coronet is closed for the night."
Minsc looked at Bayle then back at Abdel, smiled, and left quickly, whispering, "Looks like we'll need a new job soon, Boo."

In case you were wondering: Yes, that is the last time we ever see Minsc. His name does not appear again - he vanishes from the narrative on page 185, having watched while Abdel was punching an unarmed man half to death. I honestly don't know how you can get Minsc's character this wrong. The narrative even calls Minsc a "red-haired madman" one more time, just to rub it in.

Anyway, Abdel is ready to kill Gaelan Bayle right then and there, but Bodhi appears just in time.

"I knew you'd come," Bodhi said, sliding out from behind the curtain leading into the back room. "You can let him go."
Abdel turned back to Bayle, who smiled at him and winked. Abdel smashed his fist into Bayle's face and dropped the bartender like a bad habit. (...) He looked up at Bodhi and took her in all at once. She was dressed in a tight silk dress that shimmered in patterns of vines and spiders. Her hair fell around her pale face and accentuated her gray eyes. Her face was regal and perfect, and Abdel could see that she might have once been an elf. She wore no jewelry or shoes.

Bodhi is really playing this "sexy vampire" thing to the hilt. We've made fun of Game!Bodhi for running around in leather underwear, but a silk dress isn't really much better. The vines-and-spiders motif makes me think she probably borrowed this dress from Phaere, so I think that would work better on Imoen than on Abdel.

She asks him to stay his hand for a moment. Since Abdel is a complete dumbass, he listens to her.

"Everyone has been lying to you, Abdel," Bodhi said, her voice as sincere as any voice Abdel had ever heard. "I've lied to you... over and over... but I'm not the only one. What did they tell you?"
"Who?" Abdel asked.
"The elves," she said, stepping closer still. Abdel's hand went to the stake, but he didn't pull it out. "They told you, what? That I was an elf once? That I did something terrible to them or one of the sacred thises or holy whatses?"

I have to figure out if there's an audiobook version of this novel, because I really want to hear someone say the words "holy whatses."

Bodhi is blatantly going for the vampiric gaze ability again, so Abdel does the most sensible thing possible: He makes eye contact.

"Abdel..." she said, and he looked her in the eyes again. "I'm sorry. I had to do all these things. I had no choice and neither did you."
"I had—"
"No choice," she said again. "Name one thing in the last month you decided to do on your own."
Abdel sighed, and Bodhi's eyes softened. Her pupils seemed to widen, and Abdel felt his jaw relax, felt his grip on the stake relax, then a yellow fog passed over his vision.
"Abdel," Bodhi whispered, "be with me..."

I'm so glad Abdel didn't bring anyone else with him. Elhan clearly has access to high-level mages; would it have killed him to spring for a Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm) or something? I have no idea why these books even bother to have a party when Abdel is always alone at the important moments.

As before, Abdel easily succumbs to the vampiric gaze ability, but there's... another factor to consider here. We switch back to Bodhi's viewpoint:

Irenicus had warned her that this might happen, and Bodhi had very casually brushed it off, saying she'd seen monsters before. In more ways than one, she was a sort of monster herself, wasn't she?
But what she saw Abdel transform into, she really wasn't ready for. (...) Bodhi was fast, fast enough to stay away from the Abdel-Bhaal thing — the raving, murderous beast. It smashed the bar to splinters and sent stools and chairs hurtling through the air so fast and so hard they shattered the plaster when they hit the walls.

I guess Bodhi wasn't there for the ritual, so she hasn't seen Abdel transform before. The Slayer is immune to the gaze attack, since it's a creature of undirected all-consuming rage and all, so Bodhi figures she's pretty screwed.

She knew she couldn't turn and run ... or could she?
She didn't have a chance to decide before the thing that used to be Abdel turned and fixed its blazing yellow eyes on her.

As always, we end on a cliffhanger. How will this encounter go? Find out next time! (Spoiler alert: It does not end with Bodhi remembering she can do the turn-to-mist thing.)

... you know, I'm pretty sure that "a kaiju is smashing up a downtown bar" is the sort of thing that would normally trigger a response from the Cowled Wizards. That's kinda why the city keeps them around. Sadly, they don't seem to exist in the book.

Last time, we finally made it out of the Underdark. We met some surface elves, led by General Elhan, who informed us that the drow offense was a feint, intended to draw the defenders away from Suldanessalar. The city itself has been hidden, so we need to find an artifact known as the Rhynn Lantorn to find our way back. CHARNAME speculated that Bodhi probably has it.

https://s8.postimg.cc/791o3z6ol/Tl17_Zcu.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/Tl17Zcu)

It's been a while since we've seen the world map. The Underdark's exit is near the southern border of the map, so we have a lot of travel time ahead of us. Well, no time like the present! Let's head back to Athkatla an-

https://s8.postimg.cc/y6vl5pz1h/hmp4d_Kn.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/hmp4dKn)

You have been waylaid by enemies and must defend yourself!

... this doesn't seem quite right.

https://s8.postimg.cc/wf2matned/c_G7_UE5_I.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/cG7UE5I)

While this event pretends to be a random encounter, it is anything but. Drizzt Do'Urden is here to make his legally mandated cameo appearance. I think the other characters are also from the novels. I feel like I'm supposed to understand these references.

⚔ DRIZZT: I tell you, Bruenor, we have been on this path previously. Are you sure you know where you left it? I have no desire to keep traveling about in circles.
:durkon: BRUENOR: Blast it, boy, I may be old but me memory has not left me head just yet! And we would not even have to look for it had Wulfgar not knocked it out of me hand!
💂 WULFGAR: I did no such thing, dwarf.
:durkon: BRUENOR: But ye did, me boy! Ye were not looking where ye were flying about in the battle, and I were too distracted by the trolls to run after it. And then I forgot that ye even did it, after.
🥊 CATTIE BRIE: Well, of course we be trying to help ye find it, but all Drizzt was wondering was ---
:durkon: BRUENOR: He be wondering whether I have a wit left in me head, girl! And I tell ye we'll find me hammer soon enough, I'll not leave it fer goblins to steal. Hmph.
🕵 REGIS: Umm... be that as it may, Bruenor, Drizzt... we've got company. Maybe they found your pretty little hammer, Bruenor.
:miko: JAHEIRA: I know of this one, <CHARNAME>, from the Harpers. A drow of good alignment and heroic reputation. He is deserving of respect.
:thog: MINSC: Ooh, another drow! I begin to see them everywhere, ever since the Underdark! They are so vicious, even Boo cowers. What will we do, <CHARNAME>?
:durkon: BRUENOR: One more comment on me hammer, Rumblebelly, and ye'll be the first it squishes when I gets it back!
⚔ DRIZZT: Peace, my friends, there is no need for us to fight over this. Ho there, travelers! I am Drizzt Do'Urden, most recently of Ten Towns. Are you friend or foe?
:roy: CHARNAME: I am a friend, Drizzt. I have heard of you.
⚔ DRIZZT: Well met, then, friend. Tell me, have you perhaps seen a, ah... a pink war hammer in the vicinity during your travels?
:durkon: BRUENOR: Blast ye, Drizzt, me hammer be not PINK!!
🕵 REGIS: Well, you have to admit, Bruenor... since Cirine cast that enchantment on it, it *has* been glowing a little on the pinkish side...
:durkon: BRUENOR: It be RED! RED, I tell ye!! Call it pink again, halfling, and ye'll have yerself a one-way ticket to the Abyss!!
💂 WULFGAR: I've been there. It was nothing special.
⚔ DRIZZT: Red, then. Might you have seen something like it, stranger?
:roy: CHARNAME: No, I haven't.
:durkon: BRUENOR: Moradin's breath! It must be about here somewhere!!
⚔ DRIZZT: We'll look for it a while longer then, Bruenor, have no fear. We are not expected back in Ten Towns for a fortnight, yet.
⚔ DRIZZT: Tell me, though, stranger... have we met before? I feel as though your face is familiar, but I cannot attach a time or place to it. Should I know you?
:roy: CHARNAME: We met only briefly. I helped you defeat some gnolls near Baldur's Gate.
⚔ DRIZZT: That was you? Glad I am to meet you again, friend, it is good to see others of decent nature travel these roads, especially with all the rumors of danger.
⚔ DRIZZT: If you are in need of assistance I will be glad to offer it. If not, I will wish you well and we shall be on our way back to the far north.
:roy: CHARNAME: I have a proposal for you, Drizzt, if you will wait for a moment.
⚔ DRIZZT: A proposal? Very well, stranger... I have no objections to hearing you out. If I can assist you, I will.
:roy: CHARNAME: I am <CHARNAME> and I seek to defeat a vampire in Athkatla too powerful to face alone. Will you help?
⚔ DRIZZT: I have heard rumors of a vampire. They say she was responsible for the destruction of the Shadow Thieves in the capitol. Is this the same creature?
:roy: CHARNAME: Yes. I destroyed the Thieves for her, but now she is my enemy, and too powerful to defeat alone.
⚔ DRIZZT: You worked for her, you say? Then I shall keep an eye on you for signs of treachery. Still, if what you say is true she must be destroyed.
⚔ DRIZZT: I will join you in your battle, <CHARNAME>, although there are things that we must do before that time. Where does this creature reside in Athkatla?
:roy: CHARNAME: In the crypts beneath the Graveyard District.
⚔ DRIZZT: I think I know the area you speak of. Very well... we will meet you there when you are ready to venture beneath the surface. Until that time, <CHARNAME>...
:miko: JAHEIRA: An excellent idea, <CHARNAME>. Adding Drizzt and his companions to our battle against Bodhi will certainly tip the scales. You show great wisdom.
:amused: VICONIA: What do we need *him* for? Having one drow in your party is not enough, you need to go trolling about for extras? Even though that one is a little on the luscious side...

Journal entry:
Drizzt Do'Urden joins the fight.

I encountered the famed ranger, Drizzt Do'Urden, and several of his companions on the way back from the Tethir Forest. I managed to get him to agree to join in my fight against Bodhi. He will meet me in the catacombs beneath the Graveyard District when I am ready to face the vampire.

This encounter is fascinating to me. You really (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html) couldn't get away (http://goblinscomic.com/comic/07102005) from Drizzt references (https://strategywiki.org/wiki/Baldur%27s_Gate:_Dark_Alliance/Drizzt) back in the '00s, but the presence of people like Cattie Brie and Wulfgar and Regis puts this over the top. I have no idea who any of those characters are, but I have no doubt that this encounter was carefully designed to represent them properly. Baldur's Gate 2 has a rather timeless air, since all the pop culture references were already decades out of date when it was new... but sometimes, it reminds you that it's from 2000.

The whole thing is weirdly... elaborate, I guess. Drizzt will know if you attacked him in Baldur's Gate 1 and imported your save, and it changes the whole encounter - in fact, it can spiral into a lengthy debate on the nature of drow and the existence of intrinsic evil. There are other oddities, too. For example, he'll attack you if you are an Elf named "Drizzt" or "Drizzt Do'Urden" with a reputation of less than 12, calling you an imposter. This encounter has a ridiculous amount of branching points, and it's only time that Baldur's Gate 2 takes your actions in BG 1 into account, and it's just for a cameo.

Anyway, I guess we've recruited some helpers...? Let's see if we can pick up any more aid in Athkatla.

https://s8.postimg.cc/z95roa505/g_TSb4_XZ.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/gTSb4XZ)

First, though, we should take care of some unfinished business. A few things have changed in Athkatla - among other things, Ribald Barterman has expanded his stock, which means there are now some high-end magical items you can buy.
All the content from Chapter II is still available. Among other things, there's a serial killer (http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/Walkthrough2/SoA/chapter-2/quests/bridge-distric-murders.php) on the loose in the Bridge district, who skins his victims. It's one of the longer quest chains in the game, with two follow-ups later on, so that link is well worth reading. We'll only do the first part, though. We take a moment to help out Lieutenant Aegisfeld with the problem, extract a confession from the killer (https://i.imgur.com/XgJoIk0.png), and loot his basement for part of a magical bow. (https://i.imgur.com/YkTCNpI.png) (We found the other part in Spellhold.)
We then take the two parts to a dwarf in the Docks district. (https://i.imgur.com/XP42lLL.png) Remember how you could commission a set of Ankheg armour in the first game? Cromwell can do the same, and much more. (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Cromwell) There are some broken components and crafting materials scattered throughout the game world, and Cromwell can smith them into powerful items for you. That's right: Baldur's Gate 2 has crafting mechanics. This game invented or popularised a lot of things that would become standard for WRPGs. There's only a handful of items that can be made, but most of them are best-in-class, so it's worth the effort. Crom Faeyr in particular is completely broken, but it also requires a game-long scavenger hunt, with the Hammer of Thunderbolts being found at the conclusion of a particularly weird sidequest that feels like half-cut content.

https://s8.postimg.cc/9dm153aw5/Sy_NIRP4.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/SyNIRP4)

This isn't really related to the plot, I just wanted the bow. It needs no ammo because it shoots lighting bolts. How can you not love that? Also, I needed an excuse to show off Cromwell.

... ahem. Right. The plot. We're here to recruit allies and then assault Bodhi's compound in the Graveyard District. I've said before that this feels like it was cut late in development. There are exactly three groups you can recruit to help you:

The Shadow Thieves can be convinced to help you finish off Bodhi's guild, if you sided with them in Chapter III. We didn't, so that option is off the table - the Shadow Thieves are a little too busy being dead to help us.
Drizzt's group is currently "between sagas," so they can be convinced to help out. And by "be convinced" I mean "you have to use an exploit if you don't want to encounter them" so one's kind of a freebie.
Finally, there's the Order of the Most Radiant Heart. They're paladins, so vampire-slaying is right up their alley. The Order has such a strong presence in this game, I literally didn't realise they exist until my third playthrough.

... this is a bit of a diversion, but - I think it might've been interesting to tie this quest in with some of the Chapter 2 content, just to make the world feel a little more responsive. As it stands, the ally-gathering is rudimentary at best.
This might've been an opportunity to make the strongholds a bit more relevant. A mage who completed the Planar Sphere questline ends up in good standing with the Cowled Wizards, who might appreciate the chance to punish Irenicus for the whole Spellhold thing. A bard could recruit a party of adventurers at the inn. Clerics and paladins could get help from their respective orders. Imnesvale doesn't seem to have a militia, but a ranger might ask Madulf's party (http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/Walkthrough2/SoA/chapter-2/quests/madulf-and-his-friends.php) for help. As for the fighter, we've noted that the de'Arnise guard is very well-equipped, as far as local guards go; they can probably spare a few mid-level casters who need to earn some XP. That sort of thing.

Eh. Maybe it'd be too much of a diversion. I don't know. Anyway: You don't really need the help of any of these groups, but I figure we should check in with OMRH, mostly because I've actually never seen them help.

https://s8.postimg.cc/hvvh9fp4l/gq_Dlu1_Y.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/gqDlu1Y)

The Order has a swanky place in the Temple district, next to the Guarded Compound, which houses one of SoA's stranger optional dungeons.(?) (http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/Walkthrough2/SoA/chapter-2/areas/temple-district-guarded-compound.php) Also, Garrick from the first game is making a cameo (https://i.imgur.com/jey9rWL.png) for some reason.

https://s8.postimg.cc/cx7yuwt1h/O7l_BO3a.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/O7lBO3a)

Ooh, a fan. Nice to get some recognition.

:redface: C6SQUIRE: Greetings to you, <CHARNAME>, in the name of the Most Noble Order of the Radiant Heart. Allow me to introduce myself... I am Squire Catheras, assistant to the Prelate Wesselan.
:redface: C6SQUIRE: I am young, but I have been following the tales of your many exploits. It is difficult to discern the truth, but whatever truth there is to these tales must still be quite exciting!
:redface: C6SQUIRE: I am pleased to finally meet you in person. I apologize, however... you likely came here with a purpose, and I am keeping you from it. Did... did you have business with the Order, <CHARNAME>?
:roy: CHARNAME: I intend to enlist the aid of the Order in battling a powerful vampire that is in the city.
:redface: C6SQUIRE: A... a vampire? Such a terrible creature truly exists? Here in Athkatla? I... I had no idea!
:redface: C6SQUIRE: You must tell the Prelate about this immediately! If there is such a pervasive evil in the city, I am sure the Order will do all it can to assist you. Come!

That was pleasantly straightfoward for a change. Catheras has a range of possible greetings, depending on your Reputation and on whether you are a Paladin. Even a Fallen Paladin can convince him to fetch the Prelate, though.

https://s8.postimg.cc/rt6i2ic5x/C9_Ycyx_G.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/C9YcyxG)

These are some fancy halls. The OMRH can't be hurting for cash at the very least.

♞ HPRELATE: Ah, <CHARNAME>... I greet you on behalf of the Order of the Radiant Heart. Be welcome here in our Hall. Do you have business with the Order?
:roy: CHARNAME: I do. I intend to do battle with a powerful coven of vampires here in the city and I wish to request the Order's aid.
♞ HPRELATE: I have heard of this vampire, her name is Bodhi... you were working with her and her guild when you destroyed the Shadow Thieves. Why did you do this?
:roy: CHARNAME: I thought I needed her aid, and that the Shadow Thieves were worse. But now I know she is part of a terrible plot, and I cannot defeat her alone.
♞ HPRELATE: Then she and her brood must be stopped, without question. Very well, <CHARNAME>, the Order shall fight alongside you against this evil.
♞ HPRELATE: When you go to the graveyard to face this creature, I shall send a group led by Sir William Reirric to fight by your side. They will meet you in the catacombs.
♞ HPRELATE: In Torm's name, I pray that this is enough to defeat this evil once and for all. Go with my blessing, <CHARNAME>... I have preparations that must be made.

Journal entry:
Allies recruited for the struggle against Bodhi.

Prelate Welessan of the Most Noble Order of the Radiant Heart has agreed to aid me against Bodhi. A group led by Sir William Reirric will meet me beneath the Graveyard District when I am ready to strike at the vampire.

Prelate Wesselan knows whether you sided with Bodhi or the Shadow Thieves, and the dialogue also changes a bit if you are a Paladin and/or a member of the OMRH. There is a range of possible responses here, ranging from "enthusiastic cooperation" to... er, well, "reluctant cooperation." Okay, not much of a range.

https://s8.postimg.cc/f1sbw0hth/ar_KOZL0.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/arKOZL0)

While the game goes back to being a wide-open sandbox in Chapter VI, there isn't actually anything new to do here. You can finish old sidequests, but that's it. Nothing changes.

There are no more allies to recruit, so it's time to confront Bodhi.

https://s8.postimg.cc/6wa9xv1ad/y_Ja_YRks.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/yJaYRks)

You always arrive at night, regardless of when you left. Bodhi waiting to deliver some last-minute villain sneering.

:sabine: BODHI: You are becoming an impressive pest, one that I am finding difficult to ignore!
:sabine: BODHI: Honestly, <CHARNAME>, I simply do not know what to do with you. I grow tired of seeing you in my shadow.
:roy: CHARNAME: I was not the one that fled our last encounter, Bodhi. Sorry if I... scared you.
:sabine: BODHI: Hardly. It was simply more important that I report of your condition to Irenicus. He has decided that it is of no importance, interesting though it is.
:sabine: BODHI: Regardless, I have not the time to stand here discussing what you will or will not do. I have more important duties to take care of.
:sabine: BODHI: A simple warning, one that you would do well to heed. Follow Irenicus no more, <CHARNAME>, or your end will be dire indeed.
:sabine: BODHI: I will speak no more to you. Fight, and if you survive, be thankful and go home.

Journal entry:
The Final Battle with Bodhi.

Bodhi has revealed herself to me, letting me know that she is aware of my pursuit... and in an attempt to dissuade me from entering her lair unleashed yet more of her undead creations upon me. She swears I will lose much more than my life if I continue to pursue her... although, in truth, I have little choice.

:sabine: BODHI: You follow in the hopes of retrieving something dear to you. I say that the longer you keep this up, the more you will lose.
:sabine: BODHI: Take poor Jaheria there. I understand you have developed a relationship of sorts. It's so hard on couples when something happens to one of them, don't you agree?
:miko: JAHEIRA: I have no fear for his well being, monster.
:sabine: BODHI: Ahh, but I do not speak for him, Jaheira. I speak of you. This is a lesson, <CHARNAME>. Follow me and you will lose more than you could imagine. Starting now!

[BODHI vanishes with JAHEIRA.]

Journal entry:
The Final Battle with Bodhi.

Bodhi appeared in an ambush shortly before I reached her haven, warning me that she was aware of my pursuit and stealing from me the one person that is dearest to my heart: Jaheira. Before she vanished and unleashed more of her undead creations upon me, Bodhi warned me that if I continue I will lose even more than I thought possible. I cannot give up on the Rhynn Lanthorn... but now the life and immortal soul of the one I love is at stake, as well!

"Go home." Heh. I doubt Candlekeep would take us on, now.

What's meant to happen here is that Bodhi abducts whomever you are dating, removing them from your party and spawning a bunch of vampires for you to fight. For some reason, I've never gotten that to trigger properly. I think you need to have actually completed the romance sidequest, but we haven't, so... we get the generic dialogue.

https://s8.postimg.cc/x4len8t3p/8_Tiz1c_L.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/8Tiz1cL)

The fight with the trash vampires still happens, though. They aren't too dangerous, but they have two highly annoying abilities: They drain levels, and they can use a Charm spell at-will. It's not a big deal if you have Clerics in your party, but you definitely want Negative Plane Protection and Chaotic Commands here, plus maybe Lesser Restoration in case you do get hit.

(If you have a very high-level cleric in your party: Yes, Turn Undead does work against vampires. And if you're Good-aligned, the vampires do get incinerated. If you're nearing epic levels, this part of the game becomes entirely trivial.)

https://s8.postimg.cc/asnltv9f9/o_AIo_Hjd.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/oAIoHjd)

Anyway, we finish off Bodhi's minions without too much trouble. Time to take this battle to Bodhi herself.

https://s8.postimg.cc/6jivrpdvp/2_A1pp_IY.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/2A1ppIY)

The paladins are already waiting for us. The name "Erik Vanstraaten" is probably a reference to something, but I couldn't tell you what. If nothing else, van Straaten is a Dutch name like van Helsing.

https://s8.postimg.cc/m507bo59h/m_F6_QIPc.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/mF6QIPc)

This dungeon is pretty straightforward: Vampires charge at you, and you sword them to pieces. (Hopefully.) If you have trouble with this dungeon, you can always soften up the opposition with a few Fire Elementals, but the vampires can kill them because of the level-drain ability.

Vanstraaten sends most of the paladins home, but he sticks with you for the remainder of the dungeon. (Speaking of sticks: Defeated vampires can be staked for a modest EXP gain. It's worth doing, because there are a lot of stakes lying around in this place. Make sure you keep one around, though.)

https://s8.postimg.cc/lfhezbcfp/0xadfhb.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/0xadfhb)

Drizzt and company are waiting for us in the next room. They easily kill the vampires here, spending more time arguing about what kind of pizza they want to get later than the actual encounter. Just like a pen-and-paper group!

As with Vanstraaten, Drizzt sends the others away and joins you on his own. If you have some Holy Water, you can pour it into the blood pool to debuff the vampires a bit.

The adjacent hall is chock full of mid-level vampires. Abdel and Misnc could probably handle those guys on their own, assuming Chaotic Commands and Negative Plane Protection are in place, but this is a great opportunity to put Holy Smite (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Holy_Smite) to use.

https://s8.postimg.cc/7lt2a9rk5/Zvw_ZWtv.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/ZvwZWtv)

Boom! Headshot. Vampires are quite annoying in a fair fight, because you have to keep fixing the level drain, so it's quite satisfying to annihilate them like this.

We clear out the remaining vampires, stake those we can stake, then head downstairs for the final confrontation...

https://s8.postimg.cc/pbuqvbcut/RFr3_Pr4.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/RFr3Pr4)

... next time.

The novel series has certain fundamental flaws I keep coming back to. The book is clearly a rush job; most characters are quite useless; the plot is driven by random events; and, for some ungodly reason, events from the game are altered to be less exciting. The assault on Bodhi's lair hits, oh, two or three of those recurring complaints? You've heard most of them before, but they need to be restated here. Don't worry, I'll keep it brief.

That was a lie.

We are constantly reminded that Abdel's main way of interacting with the world is "blundering." He seems to be entirely unaware that "planning" is a thing that one could, potentially, do. He keeps charging headfirst into danger, but not because he's brave or good at thinking on his feet but because it's the only thing he knows how to do.
You can definitely have a character like that, especially if you're writing an action-comedy of some kind, but it has become rather tiresome at this point. Abdel never prepares for anything, never accepts help from his friends and never stops to consider his options, but he just... keeps getting away with it. Things always work out for him, and for no good reason.
Consider this chapter. Abdel knows - from personal, painful experience - that Bodhi's gaze attack is functionally a one-shot kill. If he gets mind-whammied, he just loses. That's a potentially interesting complication. Abdel's main thing is that he's a really good puncher, but this is a problem you can't solve with punches alone. Or at least not without additional preparation. So what is Team Abdel going to do?
Well... nothing, really. Abdel refuses to prepare for this. He has friends and allies that could help him, but he refuses to take them along for basically no reason. I can see why you'd leave Yoshimo behind (he might betray you), but why not Jaheira? It's ridiculous. Yes, Imoen is too sick to do anything, but you didn't have to do that. You could've made her curse more like Abdel's. That was a choice the author had. Even if Abdel has to do this alone, for some reason, he could've asked for a casting of Mind Blank or Chaotic Commands first. Or brought some smoked goggles. Or something.
Buuuut of course this doesn't end up mattering. Abdel gets mind-whammied, obviously, but then he turns into the Slayer and easily solos the encounter. (Uh, spoiler alert.) Remember that Abdel can't control the transformation. He can't choose to turn into the Slayer, so that wasn't something he planned for or expected to happen. Things always just... seem to work out for him.

This kind of plot, where the protagonists succeed at everything for no reason, is terribly frustrating. Everything that happens is a result of covenient accidents and narrative fiat. The plot bends over backwards to make sure things go alright for Abdel and that just makes it hard to care. Phrased another way: There's a reason Gladstone Gander (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladstone_Gander) is usually not the protagonist.

Allowing the other characters to participate might've helped with fixing those problems. Abdel may not be capable of coming up with a reasoned plan, but Imoen or Jaheira certainly could. If you allow them to do something, then Abdel doesn't have to carry the entire narrative weight and you don't have to rely on narrative fiat to have your protagonists succeed. (It would also help with having the book feel more D&D-y, since playing a game of D&D is explicitly and inherently a social experience.) But, for some ungodly reason, Abdel is almost always alone.

Also, I don't know if you noticed, but... there's no drow assault on the surface. Blowing up the gate seems to have stopped the invasion outright. Yeah, there's a camp of armed elves, but there don't seem to be any drow around. Elhan and company are far too relaxed for a wartime operation and far too welcome to outsiders for elves. I guess including the drow would've been untidy? But this part of the story kinda needs to be untidy. You won a battle against Irenicus by crippling his drow allies, but that's all you did. There's a cosmic countdown timer hanging over CHARNAME's head, and Irenicus is about to do... something... bad to Suldanessalar, and he's locked you out, and you have to rely on the support of those weird elves and they are clearly hiding something from you and... well, it's meant to be a somewhat desparate situation. It needs to be. We're approaching the climax of the story; this is where the tension needs to ratchet up and the screws need to turn. (There's a small hint in that direction with Imoen's possession, but I feel like that needed more build-up before it happened.)

Meaningful conflict is at the heart of every story. That's another thing that keeps popping up.

Here's a suggestion for an AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION for this week: I'd love to hear a sound-off about the return to the overworld / the assault on Bodhi's dungeon. Do you think it holds up?
In my opinion, it's probably the weakest part of the game, since nothing new really unlocks in the world above, and the quest itself seems a bit under-implemented. The generic vampires aren't really dangerous anymore, but they are annoying to fight because you have to keep spending spell slots on removing or preventing the level drain. (I also question Bodhi's decision of hiding the Lanthorn in the one plce where her enemies would know to look.)
It's not bad by any means, just... weaker than the rest of the game. Do you share that opinion? Or am I just being grumpy? For extra credit - how would you change this section and why?

Kish

2018-05-05, 10:10 AM

Clerics and paladins could get help from their respective orders.
As a cleric, you can actually ask your temple for help, but they just reply with, "Hunting vampires isn't really our specialty--try asking the Order of the Radiant Heart" or, for Talos, "No, we're not interested in helping you wipe out a major force of evil."

Prelate Wesselan knows whether you sided with Bodhi or the Shadow Thieves, and the dialogue also changes a bit if you are a Paladin and/or a member of the OMRH. There is a range of possible responses here, ranging from "enthusiastic cooperation" to... er, well, "reluctant cooperation." Okay, not much of a range.

If you're evil (or below 10 reputation? I can't remember which and can't be bothered to look up the flag at the moment) it becomes a lot trickier, with "ha ha, you're probably just trying to lure us into a trap, get out of here" being not only a possibility but the most likely outcome.

(If you have a very high-level cleric in your party: Yes, Turn Undead does work against vampires. And if you're Good-aligned, the vampires do get incinerated.

Good or Neutral; it only controls them if you're Evil.

Spore

2018-05-05, 10:44 AM

The way Abdel behaves later implies that he blames himself for the encounter, though.

"I just have this effect on women. I can't help it. The poor gal must thirst after my buttocks even now." :smallamused:

You may have noticed that Abdel seems to be alone. That's because he is - ever the tactical genius, he left the rest of the party behind in the elven camp at Wealdeath.

Yes, the sneakiest of fighters. He is dexterous. But I have yet to see the WILLINGNESS to sneak. but yes, waltz into the lair of the mind-bending vampire which could probably be accompanied by a powerful necromancer.

Or maybe he is after having another taste of vampire. :smallannoyed:

she hasn't actually lost her soul yet? I am confused about the mechanics of all this.

Maybe it is similar to "Scrying" clause about being familiar with something. Her soul is gone. But her soul knows her body. It CAN return and scare the bajebus out of everybody. Why it would return however, I don't know. Maybe it is just Imoen struggling with her inner turmoil and it is actually NOT Bhaal but Imoen.

Bodhi is blatantly going for the vampiric gaze ability again, so Abdel does the most sensible thing possible: He makes eye contact.

I knew it. He is out to get some poon.

As before, Abdel easily succumbs to the vampiric gaze ability

There is ignorance in bliss. Maybe Abdel seeks just that simplicity. He seems like a guy that does not like complicated things.

But what she saw Abdel transform into, she really wasn't ready for

Boo! Abdel became a slayer. He so wanted to lay 'er. (Yes, sometimes I applaud my own wordplay!)

´This encounter is fascinating to me. You really couldn't get away from Drizzt references back in the '00s, but the presence of people like Cattie Brie and Wulfgar and Regis puts this over the top.

Oh, I remember him in Dark Alliance. His appearance was EXTREMELY shoe-horned (in?).

I'd love to hear a sound-off about the return to the overworld / the assault on Bodhi's dungeon.
or extra credit - how would you change this section and why?

I have not seen why raiding her crypt is so crucial. But it DOES give undead hunting CHARNAMEs (rangers, clerics, paladins) a bit of fodder if the Umar Hills and the occasional undead encounter along the way was not enough. I like it simply for a bit of "enemy balance".

Personally I would have moved Irenicus and Bodhi to Suldanessalar however. In a climactic finale, you learn that your dabbling in the Underdark was too time consuming and they have already sieged the city to its knees. The elves fled in terror, leaving only a small force in the city to secure the retreat and the High Priestess who refuses to part with her city.

Drama would unfold between Irenicus and Ellisime. Then they would fight - the group would see the combat "cutscene-style", with the RP reason that Ellisime protects us but make it impossible for us to help. Irenicus would then be given a last possibility to redeem himself and atone. He would get teary-eyed for a second then enact his plan, killing Ellisime and completing his plan. Then the part with the Abyss would proceed.

Keltest

2018-05-05, 11:34 AM

I have not seen why raiding her crypt is so crucial.

You cant kill a vampire without staking them in their coffin. Well, you can, theoretically, but it is by far the easiest and most feasible way to do so. Since Bodhi of the games is actually somewhat intelligent, she has her coffin in a secured location with lots of minions and defenses instead of, say, the basement of a public building.

JadedDM

2018-05-05, 01:32 PM

It's funny for me to remember, that Drizzt was not a solo character originally. He was part of an ensemble cast. The other characters were Bruenor, Regis, Catti-Bree and Wulfgar. But Drizzt turned into such a dark horse, that eventually he overshadowed them all. People started collectively referring to the books Drizzt was in as 'Drizzt books' even though he wasn't the main character, just one of them.

Now everybody knows who Drizzt is, but apparently his companions have been forgotten. Weird.

Spore

2018-05-05, 05:13 PM

It's funny for me to remember, that Drizzt was not a solo character originally. He was part of an ensemble cast. The other characters were Bruenor, Regis, Catti-Bree and Wulfgar. But Drizzt turned into such a dark horse, that eventually he overshadowed them all.

Which is weird because he is not even the strongest character in there imo. but I guess you can't write fanfic as easily of Bruenor :)

Khay

2018-05-06, 04:02 AM

Spore

2018-05-06, 06:29 AM

Heh, I never actually read the novels. I only know about the Drizzt character because of the second- and third-hand references. I think it's the same for a lot of people, at least those who weren't D&D fans before Baldur's Gate.

I became a fan of the Forgotten Realms and D&D 3.5 because of the games. Drizzt had nothing to do with it. But I read all the books during a lazy summer - my teenage mind needed light reading to vent some of the required reading of highschool (Kafka's Transformation, Goethe's Faust).

The earlier books are well made where Drizzt is just a weird racial choice for a ranger. His origin story from Menzoberranzan is also well made; who knew that the story of being an outsider works best if the character actually IS an outsider and not a world famous good dude.

Then he got an assassin hired on his head, that turned arch enemy out of respect (wat?). And the recent books deal with extremely high magic threats where a ranger cannot do much. He is super-happy when fighting small hordes (that is why the 5e PHB ranger has so many options vs. mooks) but he is struggling with everything else. Be it liches, ancient artifact golems or Shadovar warlocks (exilants of Netheril to the Shadowfell). Basically the narrative is falling apart because he is not designed to be a main character. The only thing remaining is tragic love stories that emphasise that he will outlive any humans he falls in love with.

e: to tie this into our discussion here. Abdel has clear reasons to be the focus of attention. He is THE Bhaalspawn.
Uhm, end of list. If he were at least as smart as Roy, there would be reason to pick him as the leader. Maybe Athans wanted a good group dynamic and Bioware just told him the focus HAS to be on the main hero. In my hypothetical board meeting, I could see the Bioware writers say that growing up in Candlekeep, they could see Abdel as being a bard at minimum, but a cleric of Oghma or a wizard would be better. Athans then said: "But think of Conan. I have many good ideas. A fighter would mesh so well with the destructive nature of murder." They nodded, seeing the child-like glee in Philip's eyes.

He then proceeded to write the most published fanfic to date. Wait, I forgot about that ONE Twilight fanfic, didn't I?

mangosta71

2018-05-08, 02:48 PM

FYI: The Order of the Most Radiant Heart is the paladin stronghold.

There's a mod that makes Valen (Bodhi's messenger, in case people forgot who she was) a joinable NPC as a vampire fighter/thief if you side with her. She gets a magical cloak that allows her to survive during the day, albeit with severely reduced physical stats, but at night... "Strong" isn't strong enough; she's ridiculous. Her claws are functionally daggers that become more powerful as she levels up, but even when she starts they drain levels on anything they hit (which, incidentally, is a quick way to kill trolls without fire or acid). She'll beg Bodhi to let her leave with her during the betrayal/reveal at Spellhold, but Bodhi will tell her that she's free now and that her presence will make hunting CHARNAME more interesting. During the encounter with Drizzt and company, Valen will "test their mettle" by attacking and forcing you to kill them. She will also be attacked on sight if you go to the OotMRH, so you'll have to kill all of them as well, which means you'll go into Bodhi's lair with no NPC cannon fodder allies. (She will also be attacked by high-level undead hunters with Protection From Undead on them during ToB; you can intervene or not as you choose.) As an undead, she's killed permanently if she dies or gets hit with an Imprisonment.

As for the audience participation thing this week, the thing that Chapter 6 is really missing in-game is a sense of urgency. Chapter 5 has all those quests on timers; Chapter 6 has nothing forcing you to not take several in-game weeks derping around finishing old questlines even though supposedly your character is wasting away without their soul and you're trying to save a city that's been invaded. There aren't any consequences if you don't hurry.

Calemyr

2018-05-09, 10:05 AM

Book - Lustful Gaze
I like the concept of the vague nature of subtle mind control. Memory is a tricky thing to begin with - recalling events after the fact rarely is all that accurate. Now add in mind control that guides your thoughts rather than shutting them off and it becomes much harder to draw a line between where your thoughts end and the influence begins. "Did I really cheat on my girlfriend? I don't want to believe I'd do that, but that vampire girl was hot... And willing... Hell, eager might be underselling it... Would I have said no without the mind control? Was there even mind control, or am I making that up to feel better about what I did?"

It's the kind of tidbit that could, in the hands of a better writer, have lead to some fascinating introspection and character development. Here, it's probably just there to bring the previous scene back to mind and get a little more "fan service" mileage out of it while carefully walking a tightrope of "wanting what he got" and "still not culpable for his actions" for maximum titillation in the target demographic.

Game - Bodhi's Revenge
Yeah, you have to have a romance setting of 2 (romance completed successfully) for Bodhi to steal a love interest. You then find your love in vamp form standing beside Bodhi during her final stand. You kill him/her and take her body to the temple Mazzy was in, place her in the arms of an altar, and she's revived as a mortal again. Why did I drop the "him" pronoun? Who'd want to resurrect Anomen?

The Enhanced Edition characters have a different reaction to this event if you romance them, however, no-selling them in their own ways. Dorn just overpowers them, Rasaad's a sunsoul monk and thus effective against the undead, Hexxat [already is a vampire], and Neera is a tsundere who uses the wild magic spell "IT'S COMPLICATED!" to escape capture. Wilson loves everyone, just... not in that way.

All told, I always found it a nice touch that, at least once, your love life does play a role in events beyond pillow talk and therapy. Your love interest actually has a specific role to play in this event and you actually lose them and must go on a completely optional secondary quest to get them back. Unless they're EE characters, in which case they get to no-sell the even in their own unique ways. Given that 80% of the time your party doesn't matter at all and 19 of the remaining percents they just add a little banter, I welcome this addition.

Game - Return to the Surface
Much like I said in Bodhi's Revenge above, and like my opinion of the the Underdark section, the whole return to the surface event (from leaving the Underdark to reclaiming the Lanthorn) always struck me as a welcome shift in tone. This is the rising moment of the story. You started broken and directionless, scrapped enough together to get to Spellhold, got outplayed, and then chased a prey that was always two steps ahead of you through a perversion of civilization as you know it. But this is the moment you really stand up as an active participant rather than a victim. You persuade the elves, you gather allies, you prepare and then embark on a raid that is in some ways a culmination of everything Shadow of Amn has put before you so far. The quests you've done, the friends you made, the places you've seen... it comes together here like it does at no other point in the game. If the Underdark chapter could be called a subversive political thriller, this chapter would be called a classic caper movie. Build your cadre, make your plan, and make them pay. (I can see the movie poster now: "Kill Bodhi")

It's also the first unequivocal win you get, too. You destroy Bodhi. Her minions, her defenses, her tactics, everything she can bring against you is dust and ash in the wake of your onslaught. You kill your enemy, you claim the prize, and even Imoen gets her soul back, how nice. And if you lost your lover in the process, they're only a dungeon dive away from a perfect happy ending. The only problem is a glitch in the ally AI that views damage from traps as friendly fire - often resulting in allies claiming you betrayed them because they're too dumb to let the rogue go first. Bad code, however, does not equate to bad storytelling. After so long of "You won, kinda, but...", this time it's just "You won.". Which is nice, because this is the only "perfect victory" you get, as caveats and riders will continue to compromise every victory you'll be getting from here on out.

Khay

2018-05-12, 02:18 AM

Dear thread,

I pray this letter finds you in good health. I am currently on vacation on the exotic island of "Britain," hoping to [relax and recover a little / see new sights / take my mind off certain events in the recent past.] I do not wish to neglect my duties as a host, however, and you will find a regular update attached. I hope this post will [keep the discussion going / provide the thread with a little bump / allow future generations to learn from my foolish decisions.]

I arrived at my destination , and found the hotel to be [excellent / just as advertised / technically fit for human habitation]. The locals are [warm and welcoming / quite charming in their own rustic way / making strange chittering noises in the corridor outside], and I [look forward to the rest of the trip / cannot wait to start exploring / have barred the door as a security measure.] I wish [that you were here / that this trip would never end / that I had never set foot on this cursed island.]

[Yours, / Love, / Please send the army,]
Khay.

Chapter Twenty-One resolves the Bodhi subplot. And Bodhi's existence, for that matter. The discussion section below contains some big-picture discussion of Bodhi's character. That means we have to talk about a few things that happened in previous chapters, so it earns a content warning for discussion of dubious consent and various awful things connected to it. At least this should be the last time that warning is needed, yeah?

The last chapter ended on... well, not quite a cliffhanger, but it was certainly a tense moment. Abdel had just confronted Bodhi. She tried to mind-whammy him, and he responded by turning into the Slayer and going berserk.

That said: Let's check in with Jaheira first. Imoen was doing a bit from The Exorcist in the last chapter, how did that turn out?

Jaheira was practically panting, and Yoshimo's hand was still on her shoulder for a very long time after Imoen had collapsed back into a deep but fitful sleep.
"She might kill us all before she dies," Yoshimo said.
Jaheira spun out of his grip and spat, "That's enough!"
The Kozakuran bowed his head, his eyes fixed on Jaheira's, and took one deliberate step back.
"She is possessed," he said pointedly.

Yoshimo isn't wrong, but this seems a little extreme if you're just dealing with possession. I'm pretty sure a mid-level Cleric can resolve that just fine. (Remember that he wasn't present for any of the previous transformations, so he shouldn't know about how bad this really is.)

The bounty hunter keeps glancing at Imoen and fingering his sword, so Jaheira pointedly steps between him and the sleeping Bhaalspawn. She gently pushes him out of the room, telling him that Imoen needs rest.

Jaheira pushed him gently and said, "Let's talk about this outside."
Yoshimo looked down and nodded reluctantly. "You have a few moments, but if she moves again..."
Jaheira sighed, happy to feel Yoshimo step back, happier to see him turn and duck out of the lean to.
"If I have to," she said to his receding back, "I'll kill her myself."
She followed him out, and they walked a short distance in silence before Yoshimo turned to her and said, "What will convince you that you have to?"
"All hope exhausted," she answered flatly.
"Spoken like a true priestess," was his curt reply.
"Druid, actually," she joked, though her heart wasn't in the banter.

Yoshimo continues trying to make the argument that, if Imoen goes Slayer, then everyone here just dies - so they should kill her while they have the chance. (Although he, I should emphasize, has never seen the Slayer.) Jaheira manages to dissuade him, though, so the bounty hunter just expresses some general-purpose pessimism about how Abdel probably can't defeat Bodhi.

* * * * *

And with that, we return to our main attraction.

Bodhi's whole body exploded in pain — a kind of burning agony she hadn't experienced since before she'd become a vampire. Things had pierced her flesh before, but weapons of steel or claw never hurt her. A blade had to be enchanted to make her bleed. No fist could bruise her, and no claw could rend her, but here she was, being torn apart by this thing's bare hands.

Dang. Abdel is really lucky that he turned into the Slayer, because he was [i]not prepared for this fight. Even if the gaze attack wasn't a factor, he wouldn't have been able to hurt Bodhi at all. Maybe the stake is enchanted, but... did he just expect Bodhi to stay still or something?

Anyway, the Slayer is pretty big and pretty fast, so the fight doesn't go well for Bodhi. In fact, the fight is entirely offscreen. By the time we rejoin the two, Bodhi has been reduced to a combination of pleading, crying and getting torn apart. No, seriously:

She'd tried to speak to him, to hypnotize him, to run from him, but nothing worked. (...) She'd tried admitting all her lies and manipulations. She'd even said she was sorry. It took her leg off, and the pain was literally blinding. It ripped her arm off, and she almost passed out. She could feel cool blood drying all over her. The creature bit into her chest, and she could feel her heart burst, and more blood exploded out everywhere. One of her breasts came off in its mouth, and she screamed. The sound was as alien in her ears as it was in her throat.
"Abdel!" she screamed, the blood that had filled her throat fountaining out with the name. "I love you... I loved you, Abdel..."

Okay, so, this seems pretty bad, but remember that Bodhi's organs are pretty much just decorative. The narrative explicitly calls this out - vampires are very hard to kill. She's full of blood, but it's not hers.

... that said, ouch. We'll have to talk about this in the discussion section below.

The Slayer pauses when Bodhi shouts Abdel's name. Bodhi starts crying, partially because she's in an apocalyptic amount of pain.

"Abdel, please..." she said.
His hand came back to normal in the time it took for him to reach for, grab hold of, and lift the sharp half of the broken wooden stake. The yellow faded from his eyes.
"Where?" he asked, his all too human face covered, dripping in blood.
She coughed out another gout of cool red blood and said, "My casket... under the soil. In the dirt."
A tear slipped out of one of Abdel's eyes, and Bodhi hoped it would fall on her. It might have, but she couldn't see or feel it.

Agh agh agh agh agh agh. This isn't just creepy, this is making my skin crawl. The way the narrative lingers on Bodhi's death scene feels voyeuristic. These books are full of gushing blood and shredded guts, but it's never this... appreciative.

"I'm sorry," he whispered.
She felt the stake go in, heard something that might have been dry leaves blowing over stone, and there was nothing.
Finally.

There's a lot to unpack here. (http://legend-of-laurel.tumblr.com/post/170201351712/theres-a-lot-to-unpack-here-is-the-academic) We'll get there in a moment. We have two more viewpoint switches before the chapter ends, though.

* * * * *

In the game, Bodhi's death is a moment of liberation for Imoen. She has retrieved her soul; the curse is ended. In the novel, though, she hasn't actually lost her soul yet. So let's see how this one goes for her.

Jaheira was about to turn and go back to the lean-to when a blast of hot air blew her off her feet.
She slid to a stop through a bed of dried leaves and came to rest pushed up against the sprawled form of Yoshimo.
"By the long departed," the Kozakuran exclaimed, "she exploded!"

Oh. That's not so great.

They left Imoen to sleep in the lean-to. The shelter is gone now, consumed by... a magical vortex, apparently?

A man stepped out through the whirling winds still pouring out of the gate as if he was strolling into a friendly tavern for a night of play. He saw Jaheira and smiled.
"Irenicus!" Jaheira sneered.
The necromancer didn't answer, just leaned down, his feet still lost in the whirling magical clouds. He rose with something in his hand—an arm, thin and pale. It was Imoen's arm. A spell came to Jaheira's mind, and she started her prayer[.] (...)
Jaheira's spell drew to a close the exact moment Irenicus and Imoen faded from sight. A bolt of lightning, easily as big around as Jaheira was tall, crashed into the magical gateway, and Jaheira closed her eyes against the blinding flash. Her hair stood on end, and her skin crawled.

What.

So... Irenicus teleported into the war camp, scooped up Imoen, winked at Jaheira as an added insult, and teleported back out. Just like that. How does he know they are there? Why hasn't he done that sort of thing before? Did Elhan not set up any magical defenses? If he can do this, then why did he bother with the stupid portal trap?

Why anything? Who knows? This is yet another turn of events that implies everything is going according to keikaku (http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/037/923/keikaku.jpg) for Irenicus, and that plot device is seriously overstaying its welcome. It was weak enough the first time, and by now, it's just ridiculous.

I do like the use of Call Lightning (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Call_Lightning), though - this is the first time Jaheira has used an offensive spell. As in the game, Call Lightning is never quite as useful as you'd hope. Try Summon Insects (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Summon_Insects) next time, that's a better use of a third-level spell slot.

So, yeah. Irenicus teleported into the war camp, scooped up Imoen, and teleported back out. With that, we cut back to Abdel.

* * * * *

Abdel fell more than walked down the stairs into the basement. He was covered in freezing gore and nearly blind with a crushing load of guilt and self-loathing. He found a barrel of water and ripped it open with his bare hands. He spilled it over himself and was immediately drenched.

The mention of "guilt and self-loathing" is interesting, here. This implies that the narrative thinks that Abdel had some kind of emotional attachement to Bodhi.

Bodhi told him where the Rhynn Lanthorn is, but Abdel feels like he should try to wash the gore off first. Note that, although the tavern was previously torn apart by the Slayer, the basement stairs are still accessible and the barrel of water is still there.

Abdel isn't feeling so hot.

[T]hey'd be cheering, reveling in their chance to defeat Irenicus. Abdel still wanted to care, but at this exact moment and in this exact place, he couldn't. All he wanted to do right now was go back — crawl back if he had to — to Candlekeep and just hide himself away. (...) The casket was there, and the artifact the elves needed so much — that he needed so much — and that Imoen needed so much.
Imoen. They could go back to Candlekeep together.

This is meant to be ironic, I think - otherwise, the section with Imoen's abduction wouldn't have been spliced in here. I'm too angry to appreciate this, though. I question whether Abdel would be the sort of person to long for Candlekeep - Baldur's Gate seems more likely - but he's clearly tired and emotional, so... fair enough.

He dumped the soil out of Bodhi's casket and heard metal clatter on the wood as the jagged pieces dropped to the dirt floor. Abdel scooped them up in his big, bloodstained hands, and, just as Elhan's mages had promised him they would, the fragments caused a teleport to activate, and the root cellar was gone in a flash of blue light.

The chapter ends once Abdel touches the Lanthorn, taking him back to Wealdeath. Turns out it was a portkey (https://www.pottermore.com/writing-by-jk-rowling/portkeys) all along! I guess that would make the logistics easier. Good thing that Abdel has gotten used to teleports by now, I suppose.

Last time, we began our assault on Bodhi's lair. We cleared out the top level with the help of our friends Drizzt and Erik. We're ready to hit Bodhi and recover Imoen's soul, now.

https://s8.postimg.cc/tr8kmhkc5/IS2u5_VK.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/IS2u5VK)

We find a short corridor downstairs, which ends in a rather ominous set of doors. Now's probably a good time to cast our buffs. Chaotic Commands and Negative Plane Protection are all but mandatory here. Protection from Evil is nice to have, and so is the usual Chant / Bless / Haste setup. There's always Protection from Undead (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Protection_From_Undead), but that's a bit on the cheesy side.

Well, here goes nothing!

https://s8.postimg.cc/7fart3sxx/syd_NWYg.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/sydNWYg)

Wow, these blood pools cannot possibly be sanitary.

:sabine: BODHI: And so it shall end here. Welcome. You have been very resourceful in finding me, although I did not go out of my way to hide.
:miko: JAHEIRA: You should have made more of an effort. We have an obligation to destroy you, as if we needed more reasons.
:thog: MINSC: Boo would have found her wherever she tried to put her evil foot! That's what we do!
:haley: IMOEN: I've come for what you stole from me! I'll not leave here empty! I will have my soul!
:sabine: BODHI: You may try, Imoen, but you will fail. We have worked long to realize our revenge, and it will not be stopped by you.
:sabine: BODHI: I'm sure your reasons for coming are all very important to you. Do spare me the boredom of hearing them.
:roy: CHARNAME: I will avenge what you have done to me and Imoen. You will pay for your crimes.
:sabine: BODHI: That old tune? I grow tired of being judged by those inferior to me. First Suldanessellar, now you. They... they told of of the theft in their temple, didn't they!
:sabine: BODHI: You help those treacherous elves?! They deserve all they receive, and more! They will not even approach us while we destroy them, such is their arrogance!
:sabine: BODHI: Let them shiver in fear that they will die between me and Irenicus! They would not even acknowledge us as their own, and now we will bury them all!
:roy: CHARNAME: What do you mean, as their own? Elves rarely allow outsiders of any kind in their cities.
:sabine: BODHI: Fool! They would have you think we are some foreign intruders, attacking their city for no reason! Their shame is that Irenicus and I are very familiar indeed!
:sabine: BODHI: No *elf* would dare turn against the others, no *elf* would endanger the very fabric of their society, no *elf* would do as Irenicus and I have done!
:sabine: BODHI: Who was it that plead their case? Elhan? He stood by while they echoed our crimes in their punishments!
:sabine: BODHI: I should almost let you live so that he could have the shame of an outsider questioning him about this whole matter! Almost!
:sabine: BODHI: Your part in this ends here, <CHARNAME>. I shall feast on the blood of the gods, while you enter death with questions unanswered!

Journal entry:
The Final Battle with Bodhi.

I have finally encountered Bodhi within her lair! I must be careful to use every advantage I have at my disposal, including the holy water that Elhan gave me. I doubt it will do much to her personally... but perhaps there is some way to pollute the power she draws from this place, use the holy water to dim the blood she draws... And if I survive, I will have many questions for Elhan. He knows more than he has said about Irenicus and Bodhi.

:sabine: BODHI: But... no, I have already prepared much for this meeting, <CHARNAME>. I did warn you that you would suffer great loss if you continued your push towards me. I did not lie.
:roy: CHARNAME: You have taken too much already! You will return both Imoen's soul and Jaheira!
:sabine: BODHI: She is lost to you, <CHARNAME>. Jaheira has been quite receptive to my wiles. I doubt your fumbling could have inspired the loyalty I have taken with a bite and a gaze.
:sabine: VAMPJAH: W-what do you wish of me, mistress. I am your s-servant in all things
:sabine: BODHI: You see, <CHARNAME>, she is now quite agreeable. Of course it would have taken more time to fully turn her, but she is deadly enough as she is.
:sabine: BODHI: So let us end this, with your life crushed by the hand of your vampiric love. You won't even be reunited in death. They are mine, as long as I live!

Journal entry:
The Final Battle with Bodhi.

Bodhi has turned Jaheira into a vampire! Or... or very nearly. The process may not have been completed in the short time Bodhi has had her. Hopefully something can be done or I will have lost her. Perhaps the elven war sage might know some way of restoration... or Elhan...

As always, I appreciate how Journal!CHARNAME pauses to write down "I'm about to have a big battle" while Bodhi gives her little speech. I assume that Bodhi is used to it by now, but this must be awkward for Erik and Drizzt.

Bodhi opens by summoning a bunch of minions - several lesser vampires, as well as a handful of Grimwarders (http://www.pocketplane.net/volothamp/chap8.htm).

https://s8.postimg.cc/jtxjtfs5x/RQku_Dbz.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/RQkuDbz)

If Bodhi took your lover, you have to fight them here, but it's difficult enough even without that complication. On the bright side, you can pour Holy Water into the blood pool to debuff the vampires, and Vanstraaten and Drizzt will usually soak up a few hits. So that's cool.

https://s8.postimg.cc/vvsxnl945/Zi_PWifd.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/ZiPWifd)

To make matters worse, several of the vampires are spellcasters, and all of them have access to the hypnotic gaze ability. Bodhi herself hits like a truck, and she drains five levels at a time, so this can spiral out of control rather quickly. This is one of those fights where you really need to buff up beforehand. Protection scrolls (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Protection_From_Undead) go a long way here.

https://s8.postimg.cc/vj1jhf69x/z_AVXUhq.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/zAVXUhq)

Oh, and Holy Smite is still pretty good, I guess. Viconia and Aerie spend most of the battle spamming that spell, with the occasional pause to toss a Bolt of Glory (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Bolt_of_Glory) at Bodhi. Sadly, the two aren't quite high-level enough for Turn Undead to work. Being undead in the D&D universe is mostly a liability, I think; while you gain a few useful immunities, it also opens you up to being blasted apart by Clerics.

As you can see above, the vampires ultimately aren't that difficult if you remembered to bring your Chaotic Commands. Bodhi falls soon enough, and Erik Vanstraaten and Drizzt both take their leave.

https://s8.postimg.cc/fxk7xh21h/f5v_Uw6_K.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/f5vUw6K)

It's easy to miss, but the quest isn't complete after Bodhi's death. She withdraws to her coffin, and you have to ram a stake into her corpse to finish her off. Her coffin is a lootable object, so you have to hunt for the narrow band of pixels where the cursor turns into a sword.

We let Imoen do the honours. She recovers her soul, and the party receives a massive chunk of EXP. Progress!

https://s8.postimg.cc/am5bcrnol/n_Myns_OP.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/nMynsOP)

Speaking of progress, we also retrieve the Rhynn MacGuffin from Bodhi's remains. That'll do it for today - we'll start on our return journey next time. I haven't forgotten about the strange things Bodhi said in relation to Elhan. We're getting some answers from elf-boy, starting now.

Well, starting in the next update.

You can also retrieve Bodhi's Black Heart (http://www.ironworksforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57595) from her corpse, but it's only relevant if you had your lover vamp'd. Otherwise it's just a grisly trophy.

https://s8.postimg.cc/yd4ouvvlh/UCZh_PAZ.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/UCZhPAZ)

Same for those books over here - those, too, are part of the sidequest (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Reviving_Your_Dead_Lover) to revive your lover. It's pretty cool, you have to go to the Temple of Amaunator and everything. Sadly, we won't be seeing that in this playthrough, so I recommend you check out the BG Wiki if you're curious.

Sadly, we probably also won't see the conclusion of the romance sidequest. I'll have to think of something.

Okay, Imoen's abduction by Irenicus here is ridiculous and it makes me incredibly angry, but there'll be time to be angry about Irenicus later. Right now, I need to be angry about Bodhi.

So... our vampire antagonist gets torn apart, literally, without receiving the dignity of a badass fight scene. The entire fight happens off-screen, summarized in a paragraph or two. We learn that "nothing worked" and that's it. Hypnosis doesn't work, fighting doesn't work, running doesn't work. Why does running not work when we know that Bodhi can turn into a bat? Well, it doesn't. She could flap straight up. Bats can fly pretty high. (http://www.batcon.org/resources/media-education/bats-magazine/bat_article/755?tmpl=component) Or why not go back to the asylum? You should be safe once you're over water. It doesn't work, okay. Stop asking so many questions. Don't you want to get to the good part?

While we only get a brief summary of the fight itself, Bodhi's painful dismemberment is covered in extreme detail. She is rendered entirely helpless, having her limbs ripped off and her various organs bitten in half, and she is quickly reduced to begging Abdel for death. In the end, she dies while crying and telling Abdel what a hunk he is.
I've noted before that combat in these books tends to be pretty gory, but this stands out even compared to the Athans baseline. This is partially because it's from Bodhi's viewpoint, partially because it's not actually a fight, but mostly because of the exaggerated cruelty. No other character in the series receives a death that is quite this brutal. The narrative really lingers on it.
Now, Bodhi isn't a sympathetic character. She works with Irenicus and all, so it's not like her death is a shocking twist. But the question remains - why does Bodhi receive such a horrible lingering death when Sarevok didn't and Irenicus won't? Why Bodhi and not (say) Aran Linvail or Phaere? I can think of a few explanations for this. None of them end up looking particularly good, though some are worse than others.

The kindest possible interpretation is that this is mostly meant to underscore how terrible the Slayer is. Bodhi's death is just a means to an end in this interpretation. She's a nominally powerful character who can be curbstomped (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect) to show how big the new threat is. The fact that she has an emotional attachement to Abdel just makes it more tragic or something. It's a bit late to start talking up the Slayer - you may have wanted to give us something other than rockworms for our first impression - but that would just be run-of-the-mill bad writing.

The second way to read this chapter assumes that the narrative is aware that Bodhi is... quite messed up, and this is her receiving her just desserts. The reason Bodhi is punished so heavily is that she violated Abdel more than Sarevok ever did. Rape is a special kind of evil, after all, and the narrative is acting out a sort of righteous revenge fantasy. Bodhi's professions of love are meant to make the scene a little more tragic, because it shows that she lacks any shred of self-awareness or regret. The whole thing isn't particularly tasteful, and the narrative would've been better off without that angle, but so it goes. Good riddance to bad trash.

Aaaand then there's the unkind interpretation. You see, Bodhi is a Strong Female Character on the villainous side, which means that she's both dominant and promiscous. Not only is Bodhi a femme fatale, she's a femme fatale who can fight, which is an even worse perversion of the natural order. So of course she has to die. "Female + sexuality = evil" has lllllllllong been part of the cultural context. In this interpretation, the dubious consent is kind of an accident - Bodhi does end up genuinely being a terrible person, but not for the reasons the author intended.

I've mentioned before that I have a lot of trouble figuring out how Book!Bodhi is meant to be read, particularly the fact that she has a non-consensual encounter with Abdel. And... yeah, I never did figure it out. My priors keep shifting. I figure that the first explanation is probably closest to the truth, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was (subconsciously) influenced by the "sexuality = evil --> evil = sexuality" thing I discussed in option #3. You didn't have to make Bodhi a sex pest, after all. She's relatively asexual in the game, her ridiculous outfit aside. See, you can't remove a work from its cultural context, and "female + sexuality = evil" was definitely part of the cultural context for fantasy novels circa 2000, but you shouldn't reduce a work to its cultural context either. I can't figure this one out. Sorry, guys.

That's the problem with analysing Bhaal is Dead! - there are just so many layers.

(The game is completely different, of course, but at this point, that goes almost without saying. There's a big ol' battle and Bodhi gets first sworded and then staked. I'm not a fan of fridging CHARNAME's love interest, but at least it can happen to Anomen as well if you dated him for some reason, so there's some flailing attempt at gender balance here.)

As a tribute to Game!Bodhi, I am unilaterally declaring this week to be Villain Week. Jon Irenicus kinda tends to overshadow everyone else, so here's my question to you: Who is your favourite minor antagonist from the Baldur's Gate franchise and why? The character can anyone ranging from Bodhi to... I don't know, Silke or something. Anyone's fine as long as it's not Sarevok, Irenicus or Amy. (SoD has sort of a complicated setup with its villains, so I'll just say that anyone from that game is also a fair choice.)

For me, it's probably Balthazar (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Balthazar) from Throne of Bhaal. It can be difficult to write a Lawful Good villain, especially in the D&D universe. Most LG villains end up being like Miko - fanatically Lawful and nominally Good - but Balthazar is more like... the villain from Watchmen, I guess. He's planning to do horrible things in the name of the Greater Good, but he's 100% serious about working for the Greater Good. His plan even includes actual self-sacrifice at the end. Balthazar has managed to keep the influence of the taint at bay, thanks to his superhuman willpower, but you can tell that he's... struggling.
ToB has always felt like the weakest game in the series, and its villains are mostly caricatures, so Balthazar really stands out to me. His plan to break the Bhaal prophecy probably wouldn't have worked, since it was relying on the same flawed assumptions as Sarevok's own ascension plan, but it's nice to see that someone other than CHARNAME was at least trying to do something. Second place goes to Rieltar and the rest of the Iron Throne, who learn a very painful lesson about what it takes to be a primary antagonist in a D&D campaign, and the bronze medal... probably Saemon Havarian, the charming smuggler everyone loves to hate. (Oh yes, I'm counting him as an antagonist.) Bodhi has a cool design and she's definitely memorable, but she's doesn't have a whole lot of depth as a character. She gets an honourable mention for sure, but I don't think she makes it into my personal top three.

How about you? Any favourites?

Spore

2018-05-12, 08:03 AM

I am short on time but I like Davaeorn. He receives the perfect amount of characterization (mostly through his scared apprentice) and is a difficult yet rewarding fight. He makes sense in power and place. And I like the little silly thing that he just mentions his "death star sized problem" with the river seal in his diary.

The Glyphstone

2018-05-12, 10:53 AM

Is Edwin eligible? He's a villain, though not an antagonist, and I love his dialogue.

Spore

2018-05-12, 05:15 PM

Is Edwin eligible? He's a villain, though not an antagonist, and I love his dialogue.

I really think he means antagonists. But a few words on Edwin. 10 years ago he was hilarious and fun. Today I don't see how him, Viconia or Dorn would ever stay in a party longer than 2-3 days. Similar to Montaron, they threaten you openly, do what you tell them while spewing insults or crying murder.

Even if you are evil, I do not think you would call someone your "ally" if they start their move command with 'Best ye sleep with one eye open'...

Kish

2018-05-12, 05:34 PM

I never saw the appeal of the evil party members in BG. First game, most recent game, every game in between, Edwin winds up dead on the bridge in Nashkel without ever joining my party.

However, my answer to the question is: Bodhi herself. She was as much of a monster as Irenicus, but so much more self-aware and less whiny than him. I've always read her words and actions in the game as indicating that she despises her brother, who wanted power as much as she did, cared as little for who he hurt along the way as she did, but grabbed onto a narrative where he was an innocent victim in her schemes when it was offered to him.

mangosta71

2018-05-12, 05:35 PM

Ardulace and Phaere deserve some mention, I think. Sure, drow culture is completely ridiculous and unworkable if your setting includes anything akin to realism, but their scheming and layers of betrayals are delightfully in-character. And, unlike the Iron Throne leadership, if you don't kill them yourself you still get to witness them getting their just desserts.

Calemyr

2018-05-13, 08:50 AM

I personally have a soft spot for Sendai, the Drow Bhaalspawn in ToB. Where all of her peers treat the main character as a gnat, even as their strongholds are being brutally slaughtered, Sendai recognizes them as a threat and pretty much freaks out when they target her. She's pretty unique in that reaction, which is sad because the MC should be the stuff of nightmares after a certain point.

Honest Tiefling

2018-05-13, 11:05 AM

I've never done an evil run of the game (yet), but I think Eldath is an interesting choice as he's clearly up to no good but isn't murder happy or openly plotting your doom (oh, you little scamp, Edwin!). Through a part of me worries it gets creepy, fast.

I think I'll throw down for the Cowled Wizards in general. They get treated as a mild speed bump by Irenicus and you can end up bribing them, but...Well, after Irenicus does a number on the holy promenade and you have to keep swording mages in the face, you can't help but feel like they might have a point. An annoying point, but a point. I don't think Irenicus would feel as threatening in the beginning without that cut scene.

And speaking of poorly done LG villians, I think that the main villian of Dragonspear counts. It could have been done well, but they sorta goofed and forgot to tie up several plot holes. Like the murder thing. Overall, I'd still recommend it for some good moments with your companions, but the ending was meh.

Kish

2018-05-13, 11:08 AM

They get treated as a mild speed bump by Irenicus and you can end up bribing them, but...Well, after Irenicus does a number on the holy promenade and you have to keep swording mages in the face, you can't help but feel like they might have a point.
Please to speak for yourself. :smalltongue:

Even if they weren't so in-your-face corrupt, your "have to keep swording mages in the face" argument seems to hinge on ignoring the vast majority of every mugger group that attacks you. ("I was attacked by a group of a druid, a cleric, a wizard, two thieves, and three fighters. Wizards are so evil!")

Honest Tiefling

2018-05-13, 11:19 AM

Even if they weren't so in-your-face corrupt, your "have to keep swording mages in the face" argument seems to hinge on ignoring the vast majority of every mugger group that attacks you. ("I was attacked by a group of a druid, a cleric, a wizard, two thieves, and three fighters. Wizards are so evil!")

Amn DOES regulate thieves, why do you think they have the shadow thieves hanging around? Local color and to be a tourist attraction? Tradition? Boredom? And if they weren't corrupt, I wouldn't be mentioning them as villains!

I think that the setting itself would more than likely regulate weapons, but it wouldn't translate well to a game. Too much inventory swapping.

Spore

2018-05-13, 01:31 PM

I think that the setting itself would more than likely regulate weapons, but it wouldn't translate well to a game. Too much inventory swapping.

Though not in the areas we visit. Short of the temple and government district I don't think you can make a good claim why someone has to peace-bind (that was the word, right?) their weapons.

Honest Tiefling

2018-05-13, 04:29 PM

Though not in the areas we visit. Short of the temple and government district I don't think you can make a good claim why someone has to peace-bind (that was the word, right?) their weapons.

Well...People's houses and the taverns. Less the slums, but I imagine it would be bad for trade. Trademeet would follow similar logic.

And SOME regulation makes more sense to me personally than NO regulation whatsoever. Do they go overboard? Yes. But you could see why it would possibly happen.

NRSASD

2018-05-15, 08:48 AM

Spore

2018-05-15, 01:55 PM

For favorite villains... I'd have to say Irenicus, Firkraag, and Balthazar. Balthazar for reasons previously mentioned, Irenicus because David Warner made him a masterclass villain, and Firkraag because he basically prank calls the PC for no reason, then dismisses him with nary a second thought. Also, his dungeon is awesome.

Oh, I agree on Firkraag though it is less "Haha, I tricked you into killing paladins" and more "Finally you killed those annoying interlopers. thanks, and toodles".

but it is one of the more frustrating events of my youth to discover that my cavalier - whose very kit is MADE to kill dragons - is unable to get the paladin stronghold because I attacked him TOO EARLY. :smallfurious:

Kish

2018-05-15, 03:32 PM

Keltest

2018-05-15, 08:36 PM

Unless you attacked Lord Jierdan in the Copper Coronet instead of taking his quest, you should have been able to get the stronghold; killing Firkraag when you first meet him in his dragon form isn't a problem (and if you did attack him in the Copper Coronet, call it a metagaming penalty).

Did you, perhaps, not bother to report to Garren Windspear?

From my understanding, the paladin stronghold is one of the most frustrating strongholds, with many invisible requirements and barriers to various parts of the quests that are completely unintuitive. I actually failed the first quest because it was my first trip to that zone, which triggered a cutscene that overrode the normal group of paladins coming in to take me to the battle, and the timer was so tight that zoning out and back in caused enough game hours to pass that the battle was lost.

Kish

2018-05-15, 09:19 PM

...of course it was your first trip to that zone. It can't have been anything else, since the Windspear Hills opens up when you accept the quest from Jierdan: not before, not later. Are you talking about a mod now?

...hold on, "The battle was lost"? Are you talking about the quest after you already have the paladin stronghold to reinforce the paladins fighting in the Umar Hills?

Keltest

2018-05-15, 09:21 PM

...of course it was your first trip to that zone. It can't have been anything else, since the Windspear Hills opens up when you accept the quest from Jierdan: not before, not later. Are you talking about a mod now?

No, not windspear. Umar or whatever its called. This is the first quest from the paladin stronghold, not the quest to acquire it. The zone where the ranger cabin is located.

GungHo

2018-05-16, 08:25 AM

Kish

2018-05-16, 11:08 AM

The ironic thing is that they did program for the eventuality. If you attack Jierden in the Copper Coronet, he doesn't just stand there--he says "You're not worth my time" and teleports away.

It's, rather, a case of: They programmed for "you may choose to kill quest givers instead of doing their quests" in a way some people don't like.

Khay

2018-05-17, 02:01 AM

One thing I learned during this LP: You can run past the "monsters" at the Windspear Hills spawn point, if you so choose. The hut will be empty and the dungeon locked off, but at least you can complete the dryad quest. (Hi, I'm back from vacation.)

Spore

2018-05-17, 07:00 AM

I did talk with Lord Jierdan and I did go to Windspear Hills, going through the dungeon and killing the dragon. I might have overlooked the fact that he held captives and I might have challenged Firkraag prompting Garren's kid to die.

Well....uhm...woopsie?

Kish

2018-05-17, 10:23 AM

Change that to "you might have simply left Garren's child in the dungeon for the rest of the game." Insisting on an immediate battle with Firkraag doesn't get them killed.

Honest Tiefling

2018-05-17, 12:14 PM

Change that to "you might have simply left Garren's child in the dungeon for the rest of the game." Insisting on an immediate battle with Firkraag doesn't get them killed.

Oh come on, everyone has accidentally done this at least once in their life.

Spore

2018-05-17, 12:19 PM

Oh come on, everyone has accidentally done this at least once in their life.

You're talking about fictional lives, yes?

Kish

2018-05-17, 04:04 PM

Don't know about you, but the majority of my fictional lives are in games other than BG2.

Honest Tiefling

2018-05-17, 05:59 PM

You're talking about fictional lives, yes?

I think forgetting a kid in a dungeon would have a slightly different context in real life...

And if it ever made you feel better, I played a game where I forgot to go back and prevent a genocide, so there's that.

Spore

2018-05-17, 06:20 PM

I think forgetting a kid in a dungeon would have a slightly different context in real life...

And if it ever made you feel better, I played a game where I forgot to go back and prevent a genocide, so there's that.

Reminds me of Fable 3. In the game half way in you are crowned as king and

have to shore up defenses against a race of shadow demons in one year. This costs gold but every good decision costs also gold. So you can put work in and save the kingdom AND make its inhabitants happy when you do EVERY side quest.

Or you are like me, do the first third of good quests because you like people being happy. Then this hippie dude rants on about the beautiful lake and how it should be preserved and you say to yourself. The monsters are approaching, pump the damn lake and mine the ressources laying on its ground. Screw this, evil decisions that make dosh from now on (except turning an orphanage into a whorehouse. that is just NEXT LEVEL EVIL.) Weirdly enough despite my largely unpopular decisions the monster still overrun the place.

After the final fight, I am place in a game world where 60% of all NPCs have died, AND everyone is pissed because I made a few unpopular choices. I gave the business magnate the ability to employ children. Nowhere did I say he could keep employing them after the catastrophic apocalypse!

Uhm, sorry about the rant. What I try to say is that sometimes the lack of choices really sours the mood on old classics. Concerning BG 2, I wanted the blackguard Dorn Il-Khan in my group. His literal first mission is to kill not only a paladin - one could easily wrap his head around killing one of the more pompous members (I'm looking at you Anomen!). No, you are to disrupt his marriage and kill him before the altar.

And the companion doesn't even tell you why. It seems out of spite at first glance. Some games really do a terrible job goading you into evil. And some do a far better job. I've yet to pick up a game more sinister than the Sims franchise though (http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/002/565/976.jpg).

Calemyr

2018-05-18, 10:45 AM

Reminds me of Fable 3. In the game half way in you are crowned as king and

have to shore up defenses against a race of shadow demons in one year. This costs gold but every good decision costs also gold. So you can put work in and save the kingdom AND make its inhabitants happy when you do EVERY side quest.

Or you are like me, do the first third of good quests because you like people being happy. Then this hippie dude rants on about the beautiful lake and how it should be preserved and you say to yourself. The monsters are approaching, pump the damn lake and mine the ressources laying on its ground. Screw this, evil decisions that make dosh from now on (except turning an orphanage into a whorehouse. that is just NEXT LEVEL EVIL.) Weirdly enough despite my largely unpopular decisions the monster still overrun the place.

After the final fight, I am place in a game world where 60% of all NPCs have died, AND everyone is pissed because I made a few unpopular choices. I gave the business magnate the ability to employ children. Nowhere did I say he could keep employing them after the catastrophic apocalypse!

Uhm, sorry about the rant. What I try to say is that sometimes the lack of choices really sours the mood on old classics. Concerning BG 2, I wanted the blackguard Dorn Il-Khan in my group. His literal first mission is to kill not only a paladin - one could easily wrap his head around killing one of the more pompous members (I'm looking at you Anomen!). No, you are to disrupt his marriage and kill him before the altar.

And the companion doesn't even tell you why. It seems out of spite at first glance. Some games really do a terrible job goading you into evil. And some do a far better job. I've yet to pick up a game more sinister than the Sims franchise though (http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/002/565/976.jpg).

I got around that by going the land baron route - buy all the properties in the kingdom, get rich off rent, and then honor your commitments to your allies (the "good" decrees) and throw your own pile of cash into the war effort. Then tell pour out a cup of wine on dear brother's grave as I tell him the tale: You can have your cake and eat it too as long as you can afford two cakes.

Dorn is... problematic if you're playing anything but Stupid Evil alignment in BG2EE. If you're quick and clever, you can mitigate the damage of assassinating the paladin by disrupting the wedding in a non-violent manner (I believe you can talk the bride and groom into calling it off) and goading the paladin into attacking you. End result, the only person that dies is the target and you only lose one point of rep for doing so. Of course, you've got to tap-dance in most of his quests to stay even morally dubious, and ToB goes even further. That said, there's something satisfying about his SoA capstone: if you play it juuuust right, you can screw over two demon lords, trap them in a weapon (whose flavor text suggests they are not happy roommates), and let Dorn keep his powers while still being freed from the increasingly unreasonable demands of his patron.

Personally, I have an easier time getting along with the bloody vampire than Dorn. She at least has a reason for what she does: pure, simple survival - nothing more, nothing less. I don't approve of her actions, but I can still respect that. Dorn... lacks that.

Honest Tiefling

2018-05-18, 12:17 PM

Personally, I have an easier time getting along with the bloody vampire than Dorn. She at least has a reason for what she does: pure, simple survival - nothing more, nothing less. I don't approve of her actions, but I can still respect that. Dorn... lacks that.

Well, probably doesn't hurt that she is a very pretty vampire. Through now you have made me determined to play an evil character through BG:1 to the end. I wonder who should join Team Evil? Tempted to cheat and murder Eldath to get Skie because I have always wondered why that wasn't an option. Thanks for telling me your evil plan, but YOOOOOOOOOINK!

I also wonder if the vampire's romance is better than Viconia.

I never played Fable 3, but I have always wondered why punching the guy who is enslaving children in the face and taking all of his stuff isn't an option. It's probably not a good action, but child enslavement, come ON. Lemme punch him! (And yes, the game doesn't explicitly say he does, but it is implied that he hires children who don't get paid, sooooooooo...)

Spore

2018-05-18, 02:53 PM

Reaver is about 500 years old and immortal. He sacrificed a whole village for eternal youth and has to sacrifice a human every now and then to fulfill his contract. In exchange he cannot even be killed. He is like fantasy Dorian Grey.

I wonder who should join Team Evil?

Dorn is very good in BG 1, because his evil has a purpose. I used to like Neera but her surges are tedious. I take Montaron and Xzar as a given for a Team Evil though it happens more often than not that Xzar dies a natural death. And since no one really misses him, I keep Montaron. Other than that, I like Xan and take Viconia as a necessary evil (pun intended). Kagain is very solid but I usually invite him because he shuts his pie hole.

Honest Tiefling

2018-05-18, 08:08 PM

Does the game ever reveal how the character of Fable 3 ever learned this? Also, I thought he got eternal youth, not life. But even so, a volcano or the ocean will work quite well in keeping him contained while you loot his stuff.

Otherwise, I will take this advice and form Team Evil to see how bad it is.

Calemyr

2018-05-18, 08:08 PM

Well, probably doesn't hurt that she is a very pretty vampire. Through now you have made me determined to play an evil character through BG:1 to the end. I wonder who should join Team Evil? Tempted to cheat and murder Eldath to get Skie because I have always wondered why that wasn't an option. Thanks for telling me your evil plan, but YOOOOOOOOOINK!

I also wonder if the vampire's romance is better than Viconia.

Hexxat can do charming quite well, unlike Bodhi. Using Char, my undead hunter, I've tried her romance and I haven't found it very interesting. She's not really looking for a romance and considers you an idiot for pursuing her, and she's only interested in girls, so not really my speed. I find her a lot more interesting as a companion than I do as a LI.

Viconia, on the other hand, has one of my favorite romances for how much it challenges her and pushes her to grow. Add in Vicci's role as an early recruit in every game, and I consider her the "canon" romance in the story. If I ever try my "Road from Candlekeep" story again, she'll be one of my core characters. (Personally, I prefer Jaheira's "To Hell and Back" theme, but that's not as good a narrative.)

Dorn is very good in BG 1, because his evil has a purpose. I used to like Neera but her surges are tedious. I take Montaron and Xzar as a given for a Team Evil though it happens more often than not that Xzar dies a natural death. And since no one really misses him, I keep Montaron. Other than that, I like Xan and take Viconia as a necessary evil (pun intended). Kagain is very solid but I usually invite him because he shuts his pie hole.

Absolutely agree that Dorn is wonderful in BG1. He really has this "Count of Monte Cristo" vibe going and his targets are ones anyone can get behind slaughtering. Never used him in Siege of Dragonspear (Corwin, Glint, and M'khiin dominate any CoD party I make). In BG2, however, he's tasked with pretty gruesome deeds by his patron, and then doubling down and doing even worse things to get out of trouble for it. You get to be more clever in BG2, and you get to have fun at his expense, but he is NOT for a good aligned run, that's for darn sure.

Team Evil typically has the best characters. Dorn is a blasted powerhouse in all the games, Viconia is a stupidly effective cleric with high innate magic resistance, Baeloth is an overpowered sorcerer (and quite funny), Edwin is an overpowered wizard, Kagain and Korgon are very effective fighters in their games, Hexxat and Montaron make very useful thieves, and Eldoth is useless. Personally, I'd stick with Dorn, Edwin, and Viconia and add in others to flesh out what you need. Hexxat in particular is absurdly useful: she comes with a bag of holding, she is effectively immortal (she respawns after 8 hours if she's killed), and she can have excellent stats if you take her cloak off (but only do so when you're not exposed to sunlight).

Killing Eldoth and keeping Skie is something of a headcanon of mine, made only more valuable if you play Siege of Dragonspear as she has her own side arc there where she starts to show some actual maturity. She's not playable in SoD, but you cross paths with her frequently and I rather enjoyed it. It works even better for me as my version of Abdel develops a real hatred for bards and Eldoth serves as a great start for that hatred, extending his big brother instinct to Skie as well as Imoen...

Khay

2018-05-19, 09:00 AM

Hi everyone! In the last update, I mentioned that I kinda messed up the romance sidequest. Shadows of Amn is the work that codified the Bioware Romance, but... well, it takes a few tries to get the formula right. We didn't really see what the Jaheira romance had to offer, and we missed a sidequest (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Reviving_Your_Dead_Lover) because we didn't complete it in time.

I was debating whether (and how) to present the remaining content. There's too much of it to work in smoothly, I think. We only have about seven updates left, and they'll be quite plot-heavy. So here's another Intermission, which will deal with various matters of looooooooove. (Also, I need to stall for time again so I can figure out how to handle the grand finale.) Regular content will resume with the next update. Sorry!

In case you were just tuning in, here's a quick run-down of how the romance went so far:

We met Jaheira and her husband Khalid (http://i.imgur.com/tZy6G71.png) early during the last game. Jaheira and Khalid were happily married. They are old friends of Gorion, our deceased adoptive father. We traveled with them for a while, eventually resolving (http://i.imgur.com/V8mjCFc.png) the Iron Crisis that was plaguing the Sword Coast.
In between BG 1 and BG 2, our party was abducted by one Jon Irenicus.
The evil wizard, among other things, tortured Khalid to death (https://i.imgur.com/uX1Ub70.png) and left his corpse for us to find. Harsh.
Jaheira experienced terrible survivor's guilt (https://i.imgur.com/vGrHl1M.png) for a while, which manifested itself in nightmares.
We helped Jaheira work her way through those issues, gradually building a sort of rapport. And, eventually, more. (https://i.imgur.com/3MidZBZ.png)

Nothing much has happened since then, apart from occasional (rare) chats. (https://i.imgur.com/CWGYfrF.png) I know there's more to the romance, though, in part because Bodhi is meant to abduct your lover (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Reviving_Your_Dead_Lover) if you've completed the sidequest.

It turns out I missed an event flag. It can only be tripped by resting in a wilderness area, so we would've had to do it before going to Brynnlaw, and I didn't think to do that. The event looks like this:

https://s8.postimg.cc/tk2e6ds85/Z2j_HNsc.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/Z2jHNsc)

If the romance has started, and you then rest in an eligible area, you have a chance of triggering Ertof here. It doesn't seem to be a sure thing, but I got it after a few tries.

:yuk: ERTOF: Pssst...psssst. Hey. Hey there.
:yuk: ERTOF: RISE AND SHINE! Oh, I hope I didn't disturb ye. My, but yer a bunch of sound sleepers. Did'nay hear the approach of us wee little bandits and now look at the mess yer in.
:miko: JAHEIRA: Get your hands off me! So help me I'll...
:yuk: ERTOF: Uh uhh, stay right where ye are. Wipe the sleep from yer eyes and ye'll see me little friend, a sharp little number right at this here lassie's throat. I would'nay want to...SLIP.
:roy: CHARNAME: Don't! Don't you harm a hair on her head!
:yuk: ERTOF: Or ye'll hunt us down across the Realms and exact yer bloody revenge. Yes, yes, I know. Can't say's I blame ye; she is a fine lass.
:yuk: ERTOF: No matter. Ye turn over whatever valuables you might be carrying -we've heard ye've got some nice trinkets- and soon you'll be on your way.
:yuk: ERTOF: We get what we want and ye get...well, perhaps we just get what we want. That's good enough for me.
:roy: CHARNAME: Please, no. This is all I have in the world. If you take my things I'll be destitute again. Please.
:yuk: ERTOF: Eughh, should I let ye polish me boots while you're down on your knees? Ye have the spine of a noble, that is for certain. What the...hold still, lassie!
:miko: JAHEIRA: Oh for crying at the moon, don't prostrate yourself before this weasel. That's all I'm going to stand!
:yuk: ERTOF: Hands off me scabbard, lassie, that's hardly ladylike. OW!

<JAHEIRA hits ERTOF for 50% of his HP. A combat encounter ensues.>

<ERTOF and company are easily killed because they are like fourth level.>

:miko: JAHEIRA: Well, that was the most stunning display of bravado I have ever had the pleasure of seeing. Could you have stooped any lower?
:roy: CHARNAME: It was all a ruse. I just played the ineffectual coward to throw him off. Yeah, that's it.
:miko: JAHEIRA: Regardless, I had thought you made of sterner mettle. I was mistaken, and will not expect as such from ye again.

There are several different ways for this encounter to go. If you call Ertof's bluff, he hits Jaheira for 50% of her HP and she calls you an idiot. If you agree to give Ertof all your stuff, you have to fight him anyway and Jaheira calls you an idiot. If you offer yourself as a hostage, Ertof hits you for 50% of your HP and Jaheira calls you an idiot.

It may not look like much, but this is actually a huge branching point. Taking one of the cowardly options breaks off the romance, at least kind of. You can still do the rest of the quest, but Jaheira won't like you as much and a few encounters change in tone. You have to take one of the stupid/heroic options. (Indeed, if you offer yourself up as a hostage instead, she explicitly compares you to Khalid, telling you that she won't lose "another" to a senseless death.)

We've advanced the romance far enough, so this fight is immediately followed by another cutscene. And I do mean immediately.

https://s8.postimg.cc/wqwxq0kdx/IGxhw_Cv.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/IGxhwCv)

This green-clad woman seems to know Jaheira.

:redface: MERONIA: A word I would have with you, Jaheira. Listen carefully whilst I say what I must, for this brings me no pleasure.
:miko: JAHEIRA: Do I know of you? Have you reason to subject me to your rude manner? I have no coin, if that is your wish.
:redface: MERONIA: Charming, as I was told. No, Jaheira, you have nothing I require save your attention. You are bid to follow as I lead. Come, we must go.
:miko: JAHEIRA: I do not follow by a stranger's command. Who are you?
:redface: MERONIA: Oh, you know me, as well as you should know yourself. We are one and the same, and I bear the pin that tells our name. Let your eyes not deceive you as you look upon this 'trinket.'
:miko: JAHEIRA: I...Yes, I see. If you would give me a moment I will do what needs be done.
:redface: MERONIA: Make your farewells quick, you will not be gone long.
:roy: CHARNAME: And what is this about, Jaheira? Should I be concerned? If something is wrong and I can help...
:miko: JAHEIRA: Relax, <CHARNAME>, I will not be gone long. Please, I will explain when I return. I...I do not wish to be apart from you too long. I will return when I can.

Journal entry:
Summoned to the Harper Hold.

Another Harper named Meronia appeared and bid Jaheira to follow her. I have misgivings of what may come of this, although Jaheira has assured me that she will not be gone long.

Meronia is one of the random NPCs you can meet in the Harper hold before starting this quest. She doesn't really do anything, apart from spouting exposition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?544430-Let-s-Read-amp-Play-Baldurs-Gate-II-Bhaal-is-Dead!&p=22730167&viewfull=1#post22730167), but it's a nice touch. I love the attention to detail in this game.

Jaheira leaves with Meronia. This starts a timer. You essentially have to wait for some time before Jaheira comes back.

... hey, since we have some time to kill - you know what else is new in this chapter?

https://s8.postimg.cc/pnp2aemo5/S77_T2k3.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/S77T2k3)

We've just finished a long linear section and the overworld is accessible again. There's really nothing new here - all the content was already available in Chapter II - but a few areas (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Small_Teeth_Pass) have been added (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/North_Forest_(AR1800.are)) to the world map. All three of them are optional, in that there aren't any quests that take you there. They're all pretty small, and there's nothing in there other than (somewhat anemic) monsters and some loot. It's a real throwback to Baldur's Gate 1. One area even has ankhegs.

That said, the Forest of Tethir area is notable since it contains one of the... stranger... cameos in this game.

https://s8.postimg.cc/f0v94ztyd/eh9d_HEW.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/eh9dHEW)

Specifically, this guy.

Remember Coran? You know, from Baldur's Gate 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21987508&postcount=89). He was one of the better characters in that game, in terms of mechanics. He had a personal sidequest that was boring and buggy, but his biography was pretty long. For some reason, he appears here.

He's also dating Safana, (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Safana) another character from the first game. Safana is one of those characters that are rendered entirely pointless by Imoen's existence. Basically the only reason anyone cares about Safana is that her portrait is conventionally attractive and she has a lot of flirty dialogue.

Anyway, Safana has been abducted by wolfweres and needs to be rescued. (A wolfwere is a wolf that occasionally turns into a human.)

https://s8.postimg.cc/kca5ppnqt/r_Gh_Gt_YG.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/rGhGtYG)

This whole thing is a trap, of course. Safana has been hired by Irenicus to capture CHARNAME. She has outsourced this job to a subcontractor by the name of Lanfear.

https://s8.postimg.cc/h5fm63b0l/Of_SUh_WF.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/OfSUhWF)

Lanfear herself has an obsessive crush on Coran. She kills Safana and tells Coran that they're dating now. (https://smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=410#comic) Coran disagrees, and Lanfear decides that, well, if she can't have Coran, so can't anyone else.

Coran "participates" in this fight, in the sense that he blindly attacks the nearest wolfwere. Lanfear is actually pretty dangerous, while Coran has normal NPC stats. He will almost certainly die here, unless you knew this was coming and pre-summoned a bunch of Fire Elementals.

https://s8.postimg.cc/uz3yv5bbp/Nu5f3_G5.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/Nu5f3G5)

You do get a little more exposition if he survived, but not much. He then exits the game, leaving you to wonder about what the hell just happened.

This is one of the more well-known easter eggs in Shadows of Amn, mostly because of how baffling the whole thing is. To quote the BGWiki:

Lanfear (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Lanfear) was the username of a member of a Baldur's Gate message board who was particularly vocal and aggressive in her demands for Coran to return in Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn.

And indeed the game checks whether CHARNAME is called "Lanfear" - and if they are, some of the dialogue changes. I was curious about the details, so I did some light sleuthing. I couldn't find the message board in question, but it's probably long gone. There is a contemporary reference on the alt.games.baldurs-gate newsgroup (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.games.baldurs-gate/lanfear|sort:date/alt.games.baldurs-gate/bCw1IqX88H8/v22BkAQAGUgJ), though, so the BGWiki is probably right. (Incidentally, that post also answers the question of "why the hell is there a dragon called Draconis in ToB.")

There is also this post (http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?t=4284) on a random board and this one (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12466&whichpage=3&SearchTerms=Lanfear%2C) on Candlekeep.com. Both are from 2010 and by one of Lanfear's friends.

Digging around a little more, I found a post on the newsgroup (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.games.baldurs-gate/lanfear%7Csort:date/alt.games.baldurs-gate/ejz2SilYAVE/bgRBExBvxh4J) that links to something called "Lanfear's fan page." That is also long gone, of course. The website has been crawled by the Internet Archive a few times, but the archives all seem to be broken (http://web.archive.org/web/20000903035637/www.crosswinds.net/~lansbg2page) or empty. (http://web.archive.org/web/20010208183212/http://lansbg2page.de:80/). A few sites in the Baldur's Gate webring (http://hub.gamesntoys.org/hub/bgweb#.Wt5LSC5ubmg) still exist - seriously, a webring - and some contain references to Lan's page, but the page itself seems to be simply gone.

I'd have loved to read some material on/by Lanfear herself, but I couldn't find anything. There was someone named Lanfear (http://www.ironworksforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51478&highlight=lanfear) on the Ironworks Forum, they were active in the early '00s and their writing style does suggest that English may not be their first language, but I couldn't tell you if it's the same person. They don't talk about Coran, anyway.

The whole experience left me feeling... a bit weird, actually. See, thanks to the restorative work done by Beamdog, this game will continue to be accessible, and I think there'll be some historic interest in Shadows of Amn for the foreseeable future. When the current old guard of Very Important Culture Makers finally dies, it'll be replaced by people who know what videogames are, and we'll finally be allowed to start discussing them as an actual art form. I would argue that Shadows of Amn does need to be part of that conversation. What I'm trying to say here is that the character of Lanfear is weird enough that, as long as this game is actually still played, it'll continue to be noted. There's no explanation of any kind within the game, but maybe the trivia item will endure too. The series has immortalized someone's online persona circa 1999, when all other traces of that persona seem to be gone, and that's amazing to me.

... let me know if you remember anything about Lanfear, I'm dying of curiousity.

https://s8.postimg.cc/rs9fbj6b9/RRq_El_C3.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/RRqElC3)

So we randomly wander around the area for a while. Jaheira shows up after, oh, a few days. (Right in the middle of the Coran quest, to be precise. That's why she vanished for a bit up there.)

:miko: JAHEIRA: There you are! I...I missed you while I was gone. I mean...well, I am glad to see you. I must tell you, however, that we must go to the Harper Hold in Athkatla.
:miko: JAHEIRA: I have been asked to bring you, and we must go soon. They will allow us to pass the wards of the door, but I must be with you, and I must be conscious.
:roy: CHARNAME: What is it they wish from us? They have been nothing but cold to me in the past. Can you tell me anything?
:miko: JAHEIRA: I cannot say. Please, rejoin with me and go there. It is very important.
:roy: CHARNAME: Very well, join with me.
:miko: JAHEIRA: Thank you, I am glad to be back in your company. I only wish it were not under such circumstances. Come, we must go. I will explain more when it is time.

Journal entry:
Summoned to the Harper Hold.

Jaheira has returned to the group, and has told me that she has been summoned to the Harper compound in Athkatla...and that I am to go there, as well. I have agreed to do so, even though I am not told their reason, and Jaheira says we must go quickly. The compound is in the Docks District of the city.

If you remember, we've been in the Harper hold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?544430-Let-s-Read-amp-Play-Baldurs-Gate-II-Bhaal-is-Dead!&p=22730167&viewfull=1#post22730167) the first time we visited Athkatla. It's not marked as such, but it's also pretty hard to miss. Off to the Docks it is.

https://s8.postimg.cc/lrbqegret/Drsa_ZH5.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/DrsaZH5)

The Harper stronghold is just as ostentatious as before, but there are some new faces around. I hope you're sitting comfortably, because there's a real wall of text coming up. I'll try to break it up in a few places.

:belkar: GALVAREY: Jaheira, my dear, it is good to see you!
:miko: JAHEIRA: Your welcome is forced, Galvarey, you know I am here at the bidding of the Herald. Why have you come to greet me; this is too important to waste time on you.
:belkar: GALVAREY: Ahh, I know well the importance of this. It was I that called you.
:miko: JAHEIRA: You! You are no Herald! What is going on here?
:belkar: GALVAREY: This area lacks a Herald currently, and I seek to establish one. You will help, by doing what's right. You know what is right, don't you?
:miko: JAHEIRA: I know you are an ambitious fool. You cannot be sanctioned to do this. Even this gaudy base is against our usual restraint. The position of Herald requires...
:belkar: GALVAREY: Herald requires the will to establish the position. The High Heralds will judge if it is deserved. Really, Jaheira, this is a matter aside. You know this.
:miko: JAHEIRA: Fine, set about with your questions so I can get on with my job as well.
:belkar: GALVAREY: Very good. You serve the greater cause that we all do. Now then, <CHARNAME>, do you know why you are here?
:roy: CHARNAME: I am here because Harpers meddle in the affairs of others, an activity they take sadistic pleasure in.
:miko: JAHEIRA: <CHARNAME>! Please.

Heh. CHARNAME gets some good snark in this conversation. If that aspect of CHARNAME was downplayed a little in SoA, it's back in full force now.

Note the exposition that's being dropped here. Galvarey is not actually the local "Herald," whatever that is. The place is called the Galvarey Estate (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Galvarey_Estate), though, which makes me suspect that he's a rich kid who bought his way into the Harpers.

:belkar: GALVAREY: Ahh, you are being playful. He said as such just to get a reaction from you, Jaheira. I imagine he cares for you somewhat. I wonder what Khalid would say...
:miko: JAHEIRA: Galvarey, siblings we are in Harper blood, but if you do not cease your tongue I shall remove it!
:belkar: GALVAREY: Fine, fine, I meant no offense. No, <CHARNAME>, you are not here for my amusement. You are here because of who and what you are.
:belkar: GALVAREY: Let me ask you a few things straight away, <CHARNAME>. Nothing too intrusive, I assure you. What are your earliest memories? Are they happy ones?
:roy: CHARNAME: I remember running, but I am not sure from what exactly. My stepfather Gorion led the way.
:belkar: GALVAREY: Running, hmm? No doubt from your past. I remember Gorion... the idealist. I was with those who thought it was a mistake. Ahh... I will clarify later.

Galvarey claims to know Gorion, and he also claims that he thought saving Bhaalspawn was a mistake. Galvarey is probably in his late forties or early fifties, if he was around when that actually happened. Or maybe he's just talking crap, who knows.

:belkar: GALVAREY: As a child of Bhaal, have you...violent thoughts?
:roy: CHARNAME: That is a loaded question. Violence is part of our world. It is unavoidable in some measure.
:belkar: GALVAREY: Hmm...finds that violence is unavoidable. Certainly to be expected in a creature such as you.
:miko: JAHEIRA: Why do you ask the question if you are going to infuse the answer with your own meaning? <CHARNAME> would never...
:belkar: GALVAREY: Never what? You are clouded by personal feelings. He may not think like us at all. Can you understand an illithid? Or a beholder? He is akin to these.
:miko: JAHEIRA: Only in your mind. This is a farce!
:belkar: GALVAREY: The questions will continue nonetheless. I do hope there will be no further outbursts.

The "interview" swiftly goes downhill. In case you were thinking that Galvarey had a valid reason to ask these things, this is where you might start to develop some doubts.

The next question, though... yeah, that sells it.

:belkar: GALVAREY: Now then, <CHARNAME>, what is your favorite color?
:miko: JAHEIRA: What has *that* to do with anything?!
:belkar: GALVAREY: Jaheira! I question your loyalty to our cause. My method will become clear in the end. I ask again, <CHARNAME>, what is your favorite color?
:roy: CHARNAME: Green is my preference.
:belkar: GALVAREY: Green! Jealousy, or the gangrenous limb!
:miko: JAHEIRA: And also of the grass, or the leaves in the trees! You are so intent on seeing what you wish the answer does not matter!
:belkar: GALVAREY: I suppose in part it does not matter. Obviously this person causes much disturbance where e'er <PRO_HESHE> goes. My interview is just to clarify the matter.
:miko: JAHEIRA: But you were to see <CHARNAME> as <PRO_HESHE> is, not as you expected <PRO_HIMHER> to be! I was to bring them here so...
:belkar: GALVAREY: You were to bring them here so that we might have them here, nothing more. The course of action was always clear.

Yeah, this conversation has taken kind of a turn. What is this about, exactly?

:roy: CHARNAME: Excuse me, but I am still in the room. What is it you intend?
:miko: JAHEIRA: I am sorry, <CHARNAME>, this was not my intent at all! I thought...
:belkar: GALVAREY: You thought you would bring him here and I would determine he presented no danger? My dear, your emotions have clouded your duty.
:miko: JAHEIRA: My...what!? You are questioning me!? You subject him to this...this witch hunt and you think I am the one that is to be questioned?
:belkar: GALVAREY: Well, your mood confirms it. My dear, as a Harper...as a DRUID, how can you allow <PRO_HIMHER> to walk around freely? Think of the effects on balance!
:miko: JAHEIRA: And what if they will restore the balance? What if <PRO_HISHER> intent is good?
:belkar: GALVAREY: It is simply not worth the risk. No, there is no choice in the matter. <CHARNAME>, You are to be...confined.
:miko: JAHEIRA: It is as good as death and you know it, Galvarey!
:belkar: GALVAREY: Nothing so barbaric. Imprisonment to contain the chaos <PRO_HESHE> might sow, either intentionally or unwittingly. It is a humane solution.
:roy: CHARNAME: And where am I to be locked away? I hope someplace with a view?
:belkar: GALVAREY: No, <CHARNAME>, I mean the spell 'Imprisonment'. You will find yourself in a small container a few leagues under the earth. Quite peaceful.

I... I wonder about this, actually. In the game, CHARNAME being hit with Imprisonment is an instant game over. You see the hand dissolve (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4WnELmgPDM) and everything. (Fun fact: Everyone who played this game is intimately familiar with the first half-second of that cutscene.) That may just be a gameplay abstraction, though. Imprisonment explicitly leaves the target alive (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Imprisonment), and indeed no worse for wear when/if they are ever set free.

Galvarey clearly doesn't have a good reason for doing this, but I wonder if something like this might be a way to delay the Bhaal prophecy. I don't think the games ever quite answer that question.

Anyway, we'll have to disappoint Galvarey here.

:roy: CHARNAME: You've no right to do this. I will not allow it.
:belkar: GALVAREY: You have no voice here and little choice in the matter. Certainly you can fight, but there are six Harpers to contend with. The odds are quite clearly...
:miko: JAHEIRA: Nay, Galvarey, there is but you and your four lackeys. I will have no part in this!
:miko: JAHEIRA: <CHARNAME>, I...I will stand by your side if you will have me. You are...you are better than this, I know. I...
:roy: CHARNAME: I had hoped... I had hoped you would, but I do not wish you to harm your friends.
:miko: JAHEIRA: These are no friends of mine! I do not recognize them!
:belkar: GALVAREY: You have made a mistake, Jaheira. With <HISHER> imprisonment I could get sponsored as Herald! But now you fight the Harpers with this monster!
:miko: JAHEIRA: Harpers may interfere but it is for the greater good! Not this! I don't know you!

Journal entry:
Summoned to the Harper Hold.

I presented myself before the Harpers at their base and discovered that I was there only to bolster the ambitions of a man by the name of Galvarey. Imprisoning the 'child of Bhaal' to restore the balance, as he claimed, would improve his position amongst the Harpers and bolster his chance of obtaining the position of Herald.
Jaheira had apparently brought me there to show Galvarey my true nature, but the decision had obviously already been made. Jaheira fought with me against the Harpers, disgusted by my treatment and becoming a traitor to her own kind... and now Galvarey is dead, his petty ambitions along with him.

The Harpers then all turn hostile and we sword them to death. And, yes, CHARNAME wrote about Galvarey's death before it actually happened.

https://s8.postimg.cc/twtscn2t1/r_Lq27i_I.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/rLq27iI)

I figure CHARNAME would consider the actual swording to be mostly a formality at this point.

Whew! That was a lot to take in. We leave Athkatla and walk around for a bit while waiting for the next event trigger to fire.

https://s8.postimg.cc/41a1tg8p1/brdms8_D.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/brdms8D)

Galvarey might have been a snake, but he was still a Harper. There have to be consequences for assaulting a Harper stronghold.

:smile: REVIANE: Hold! And let justice take its rightful measure! You will know this day that you have suffered Harper justice!
:miko: JAHEIRA: What is this! Reviane! What are you doing here? It is I, Jaheira!
:smile: REVIANE: So I can see. It pains me to do this, but a traitor's death is what you deserve!
:miko: JAHEIRA: What? If this is about the attack at the Harper Hold, you know I would not do such a thing if I had any alternative! They left me no choice!
:smile: REVIANE: I know not of what you speak, Jaheira. Explain yourself!
:miko: JAHEIRA: It was Galvarey; he had me bring my companion there on the pretense of determining <PRO_HISHER> danger, but he had no intention of letting <CHARNAME> leave once there.
:smile: REVIANE: The Harpers know only that there was an attack, and Galvarey is dead. The loss of such a promising person sent waves through the ranks and...
:miko: JAHEIRA: Bah! He was a fool bent on advancing his own station! His intent was to use <CHARNAME> as a trophy, hoping to gain enough influence to become a Herald!
:smile: REVIANE: This seems far-fetched, Jaheira. You are well known to have hated Galvarey... and why should this <PRO_MANWOMAN> command such value?
:roy: CHARNAME: It is your choice to tell her or not, Jaheira. I would prefer my background kept secret, but I leave it to your discretion.
:miko: JAHEIRA: If that is your wish, <CHARNAME>. Reviane, suffice to say that Galvarey had an unhealthy interest in my compatriot. You must trust me in this matter.
:smile: REVIANE: How can I, Jaheira? Your presence at the Harper Hold resulted in the deaths of many. For that I can but assume you are no longer one with our cause.
:miko: JAHEIRA: You must do as you will, Reviane. I have told you my circumstance, there is little more for me to say.
:roy: CHARNAME: Stand down your weapons, Jaheira. We need not shed any blood here today.
:miko: JAHEIRA: I will not draw arms against you, Reviane. This has been a huge mistake, and I will not be party to making another.
:smile: REVIANE: I know you to be truthful, Jaheira, and I have heard good things of <CHARNAME>. I will try to sway the others, but passions run high in this matter.

This encounter again contains a few branching points. If Jaheira like-likes you (i. e. if you did the heroic thing vs. the bandits), then she won't reveal your ancestry. Reviane trusts Jaheira's judgement only if your reputation is very high, at 16 or above. If it is, Reviane leaves peacefully, but otherwise, you have to kill her.

https://s8.postimg.cc/qd7umufit/Jmciset.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/Jmciset)

The next event trigger follows almost immediately. It doesn't stop with Reviane.

:miko: JAHEIRA: Der... Dermin? Is that you? It has been some time.
:nale: DERMIN: Indeed. It has been a very long time.
:miko: JAHEIRA: What is the matter, Dermin? You would not have let me walk on by, would you? I know we did not always see eye to eye, but I assure you the respect...
:nale: DERMIN: I may well have let you pass, for there is no joy in my visit today. Jaheira, do you remember the lessons I taught you?
:miko: JAHEIRA: Of...of course, you were the one that introduced me to the Harpers.
:nale: DERMIN: Yes, yes, but the lessons?
:miko: JAHEIRA: What...what are you getting at, Dermin?
:nale: DERMIN: I am not here to rehash our friendship. Jaheira... I have been sent to kill you, or otherwise seek your downfall, and I do not relish the duty.
:miko: JAHEIRA: I see. And what power has decided that I should be killed? I serve nature and protect the good of the land through my work as a Harper. Who have I offended?
:nale: DERMIN: Who...? Jaheira, you travel with a killer of Harpers. I do not wish to think you had any complicity in those acts, but here <PRO_HESHE> is and <PRO_HESHE> is still alive.
:miko: JAHEIRA: I have washed my hands of the incident in the Harper Hold. Galvarey was in the wrong and brought his fate upon himself.
:nale: DERMIN: We know nothing of this. There is only the fact that you...you and your friend were the cause of many deaths. This cannot be ignored.
:miko: JAHEIRA: He was in the wrong! Of that I am certain! Galvarey sought to imprison <CHARNAME> for his own gain and I took the side of right. I could do no other!
:nale: DERMIN: It is not seen that way, Jaheira. Exact the necessary justice. That is the only route to redemption for you. The others... will not accept you otherwise.
:miko: JAHEIRA: This is wrong, Dermin. This is not the right solution.
:nale: DERMIN: I cannot see this ending otherwise, Jaheira. Your own have died. What do you intend to do about it?
:roy: CHARNAME: This is an unfortunate situation they have placed you in, Jaheira. I trust your judgement though.
:miko: JAHEIRA: Dermin...I...
:miko: JAHEIRA: Dermin, I cannot do as you ask. You are in the wrong, as was Galvarey. I was right to choose <CHARNAME>'s side, and it is your loss if you cannot see this.
:nale: DERMIN: Consider carefully what you are saying, child. You have a duty to justice.
:miko: JAHEIRA: This is not justice. This is revenge for a lie, a falsehood that none seem bothered to find the truth behind. If this is Harper justice then I...
:nale: DERMIN: What are you saying, Jaheira?
:miko: JAHEIRA: If this is the justice you represent then I...I renounce you. I renounce...I renounce my life as a Harper.
:nale: DERMIN: Jaheira, you cannot mean...Think this through.
:miko: JAHEIRA: It would seem I am the only one that has thought any of this through. You do not, Galvarey did not, and now the Harpers out for blood do not.
:miko: JAHEIRA: I mourn many fellows of the Harp, but they died fighting for balance and truth. Galvarey did not, and this matter cheapens their loss. I will not be party to it.
:nale: DERMIN: So be it then. I will take your words to those that will listen. Do not expect your life to be peaceful with this choice.
:miko: JAHEIRA: It shall not be peaceful, but it is clearer than the course you are on. Goodbye Dermin.
:roy: CHARNAME: You have a place here, Jaheira, regardless of this mess.
:miko: JAHEIRA: I take strength from the group, but... more so in your company. I have friends to avenge, but life is also for the living. Life is worth pursuing. I...I hope you agree.
:miko: JAHEIRA: Come, enough sadness for the day. We have much to do and...and together we will not fail.

Journal entry:
Jaheira renounces her Harper status.

We have met with yet another Harper...this one, apparently, a former tutor of Jaheira's by the name of Dermin. He told Jaheira that he was sent to execute her for the deaths at the Harper Hold, and while he did not attack, Jaheira renounced her life as a Harper in anger over the injustice.

This subplot is fascinating. I think this is the only time in the series where "killing the bad guy and stopping his evil plan" doesn't actually resolve the problem. The real trouble starts after Galvarey dies. The Harper hierarchy hasn't even been taken in by his scheme. All they know is that someone messed with the Harpers and that, therefore, that someone has to die.

(Note: Although Jaheira officially renounced her Harper status, she can still cast Harper's Call. (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Harper%27s_Call) Hmmm.)

Some time passes.

https://s8.postimg.cc/c6s3rmcdh/6_Ikvdj_J.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/6IkvdjJ)

One night, Jaheira just... vanishes without a word. An oddly-dressed stranger named Terminsel (seriously) gives us a note, which explains a few things.

<CHARNAME>,

Goodbye. No sappy farewells or crying over how things must be; I do neither of these things well, nor would I wish to. I have made a decision; one that is not ideal, but it is necessary. I can go nowhere without this shadow, and I wish to leave it behind. I am returning to the Harper Hold that I might face judgement there. I will plead the case as we saw it for whatever they accuse, and if they do not see reason then I will suffer what I must. Galvarey had detractors as well as allies, so I believe I can end this in my favor. If not, at least it will be an end.

I do not ask you to follow. I do this for myself, and there will be little or no gain for you. You may still be a target of violence, but perhaps their interest in you will wither beside the capture of a 'traitor.'

For better or worse, I am taking control once more. I hope to see you again in better times.

With Nature's love and mine,
Jaheira

Oof. Given what the Harpers have been like so far, I can't imagine that working out well for Jaheira. To the rescue!

https://s8.postimg.cc/nj4p9ess5/fs_JSXnd.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/fsJSXnd)

The Hold has been repopulated with trash mobs. Out of our way!

https://s8.postimg.cc/bu0plg9j9/hz1_Y7g_J.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/hz1Y7gJ)

Jaheira is waiting upstairs. Take a moment to look at that screenshot, by the way.

:miko: JAHEIRA: What are you doing... why are you here?
:roy: CHARNAME: Your troubles are my troubles, Jaheira, and you will not face them alone!
:miko: JAHEIRA: <CHARNAME>, you magnificent bastard! I would kill you for following me if I were not so glad to see you!
:roy: CHARNAME: Jaheira, I don't care that...what? Glad? I thought you wanted this?
:miko: JAHEIRA: I wanted to atone with the Harpers, but these are not they. I think revenge is more a factor here. The true Harpers have abandoned this garish place.
:miko: JAHEIRA: Notice the lack of Spectral Harpists? They were here at one time, and they would not leave their post unless it was no longer to be guarded.
:roy: CHARNAME: Then we are free of their meddling.
:miko: JAHEIRA: We may still be hunted. I must ask Dermin if I see him again. He told me to come here, so I need to know if his allegiance has changed or not.
:miko: JAHEIRA: Those we kill in self-defense may look like Harper allies, even if they are not. We have no choice, and I will not feel guilty over this tangled web any more.
:miko: JAHEIRA: Let's get out of here, but take care: if their tactics are as simple as their motives then you may have been allowed to pass. Our exit may be treacherous.
:roy: CHARNAME: Then we will go together. Rejoin and...and walk with me.
:miko: JAHEIRA: I am glad too. We will talk later, <CHARNAME>.

Journal entry:
The return to Harper Hold.

I have rejoined with Jaheira at the Harper Hold...and she was happy to see me, relaying that the Harpers there were no longer truly Harpers. She is unaware of the full plot, but the lack of the spectres on the second floor meant that this was a mere splinter group bent on revenge, and having killed them to free Jaheira from their clutches does not weigh on my heart.

Of course, there actually are Spectral Harpists in the screenshot above, but that's strictly a rendering error. They do vanish as soon as dialogue ends and gameplay resumes. Ahh, videogames.

https://s8.postimg.cc/s50thrtqt/d21_Zd_Ln.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/d21ZdLn)

More trash mobs are waiting for us in the foyer. This is technically an ambush, I think, but... we're far beyond the point where those Mercenaries could pose a credible threat. I think that's a consequence of the problematic pacing of the romance. The intention seems to be that you should do this before going to Spellhold...?

Escaping the Harper Hold starts another timer.

https://s8.postimg.cc/j9zz79co5/Fq_WKu_If.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/FqWKuIf)

Dermin has returned, and he brought backup this time.

:miko: JAHEIRA: Stop.
:miko: JAHEIRA: Do you see him? Ready yourself.
:miko: JAHEIRA: Dermin! I would speak at you!
:nale: DERMIN: As sharp-eyed as ever, though your choice in companions has not improved. Is your treachery not enough that you must consort with a killer? I thought you better than...
:miko: JAHEIRA: Shut up! I said I would speak AT you! This matter is finished! I will not acknowledge this again! If you press it I will be forced to deal with you!
:nale: DERMIN: As you were 'forced' to deal with the Harpers that died in Athkatla?
:miko: JAHEIRA: Yes, actually, and you well know it! Galvarey was no more a Harper than a treant. His actions betrayed him, and all those that followed him!
:miko: JAHEIRA: The garish Hold, his political agenda; he was merely using the weight of the Harper name to promote himself. Tell me: what did he offer you?
:nale: DERMIN: You don't know what you are saying, Jaheira. Your association with this <CHARNAME> has poisoned your judgement.
:miko: JAHEIRA: Then I am better for it. Call me traitor, but I have followed the spirit of the Harpers. You are the traitor, and if the events were known others would see!
:nale: DERMIN: Ah, but the events are not known. What is accepted is that you have killed your brethren and taken up with a known murderer. There is no evidence existing to the contrary.
:miko: JAHEIRA: Of course not. Despite the ambushes you will still be able to claim the moral high ground for your actions. What happened to you, Dermin? I do not know you.
:nale: DERMIN: One grows weary. We would have done good works, Jaheira, just from a more profitable perspective.
:miko: JAHEIRA: At the cost of the innocents. That is always the way.
:nale: DERMIN: Innocent?! Is that what you call <CHARNAME>? But <PRO_HESHE> is a child of Bhaal! Whether his nature is good or bad it will certainly be disruptive!
:miko: JAHEIRA: It certainly disrupted you. The innocents also include Harpers that have died thinking they were fighting for the right cause. Galvarey's cause. Your cause.
:nale: DERMIN: Regrettable losses.
:miko: JAHEIRA: As was yours, though I suspect you have been gone for years.
:nale: DERMIN: Ah, your wit is still the most dangerous trait about you, Jaheira. I told you to cultivate it. Little did I know I would be on the receiving end one day.
:miko: JAHEIRA: Save it, Dermin. I have no more guilt about facing you, or any other sent on this Fool's Crusade. You are the betrayers, not I. I know this in my heart.
:nale: DERMIN: You'll pardon me if I have a look for myself!

Journal entry:
The Harper plot revealed.

The plot with the Harpers has finally come clear...Galvarey was not a true Harper at all, simply an opportunist who used his position to gain power. Jaheira's former mentor was one of his compatriots, and both were counting on the fact that my own status as a child of Bhaal would make any accusations made against me believeable.

One must wonder if the rest of the Harpers will continue their vendetta against Jaheira and I.

This is quite a revelation. I guess Galvarey was just a rich twit, one who was using his association with the Harpers to... gain prestige, I think? He strikes me as the sort of person who always finds a way to "accidentally" flash his CIA badge during dates. And at bars. And occasionally while waiting in line at public restrooms. He's technically part of the scheme that the crooked cops run, but only because his security clearance is useful. He dies at the end of the second act, just when the detective is about to flip him.

This would make Dermin the mastermind, though I'm not sure what their scheme was supposed to be. Perhaps "gaining the Heraldship" was just the first step of their scheme? Were they going to run a protection racket or something? Galvarey is Lawful Evil, but Dermin is Chaotic Neutral. Maybe Dermin was telling the truth about still wanting to do good, and he was hoping to use Galvarey's resources for that? I don't know. I wonder if having agents go rogue is a big problem for the Harpers, if the Athkatla chapter can be lost this easily.

Anyway, Dermin. He may have story importance, but all of his 14 levels are in Bard, so... this is another easy win.

https://s8.postimg.cc/tk2e6ia9h/x9_Gitk_Q.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/x9GitkQ)

Ain't that right.

:miko: JAHEIRA: I did not wish to do this. I did not. We are in the right, <CHARNAME>, but why does it still hurt?
:roy: CHARNAME: The right thing is not always the easiest. Actually, it's usually the bloody hard bit.
:miko: JAHEIRA: Heh, you and your jokes make me smile far too often, even when I do not want to. People will think I am getting soft.
:roy: CHARNAME: Not a chance. Hey, why didn't I get to say something to him? I wanted to help.
:miko: JAHEIRA: I've sat through all of your little plots and plans. The least you can do is toss me a bone now and then. Yeesh, take <PRO_HISHER> thunder for one conversation and <PRO_HESHE> gets all touchy.
:miko: JAHEIRA: Let's get out of here. We've still got things to do.
:miko: JAHEIRA: (snicker)

There are a few different ways to play this conversation, but the light-hearted ones are probably best. Jaheira will need some time to process this, and clichés won't really help her do this.

https://s8.postimg.cc/65ueul01x/z7e_F1_Xm.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/z7eF1Xm)

We return to the "occasional dialogues" mode afterwards. Jaheira continues to make vague small talk about the environments (rainclouds and such) and the topic of "friends lost," but it's obvious that she's trying to work through a brand new grief/anger/guilt emotion-snarl.

https://s8.postimg.cc/gso800fx1/u_QGevw_G.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/uQGevwG)

You're seeing Watcher's Keep there - we won't visit the bonus dungeon in the mainline posts, because there's no room for that, but I did dip into it. I like to do the dungeon in Shadows of Amn, just for the added challenge.

https://s8.postimg.cc/4e1fzow4l/f_BJm_GHT.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/fBJmGHT)

https://s8.postimg.cc/jzirjnnid/JCRTO8_T.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/JCRTO8T)

That sort of thing.

I, ah... I couldn't get the next event to trigger. Resting and wandering doesn't seem to help much. I think it's maybe just bad luck, since all the dialogues are on random(?) timers, but I can't exactly keep experimenting with this for days. This is why there are mods to speed up the romances, I think. Sometimes I wish I was using the Enhanced Edition.

Here's what's supposed to happen: Jaheira will continue to occasionally pipe up with her thoughts. Things have gotten incredibly complicated for Jaheira. She knows that Dermin and Galvarey were the traitors, but she still feels like she is the one who betrayed the Harpers. Also, her husband is still dead. Assuming you're nice, CHARNAME's support helps her sort her thoughts, though, and she eventually regains her inner balance. Eventually, she asks to spend the night with CHARNAME, and the two... well, they get to know (https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=knew+his+wife&qs_version=KJV) each other.

I dug up a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J01Mp5GN42k) that shows the quest's capstone encounter. "Terminstel" appears one last time, asking Jaheira if she's comfortable with her decisions. If she likes you and/or your Reputation is high enough, she'll say yes. Terminsel then praises her for her moral fortitude, and gives her a little trinket (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Harper_Pin) that tacitly reinstates her Harper membership. If you don't meet those conditions, then Jaheira will express some doubt and Terminsel will scoff and leave, ending the sidequest on a more ambiguous note.

This concludes the romance content. If you complete it before killing Bodhi, you have to go through the whole Vampire!Jaheira song-and-dance, but that's not specific to the romance sidequest itself. Jaheira and CHARNAME do remain a couple, though, and it changes a few things down the line. For the time being, though: Our very first BioWare romance has been completed! Spiffy, wasn't it?

I'll leave off the comparison section this time, since this post is already long enough and Bhaal is Dead! doesn't really have any romance content. I'll have some things to say in my closing thoughts on the book.

That said, I do have a few quick thoughts on the way this is handled. One of my complaints with with the romances is that they are incredibly back-loaded on content. It starts off well enough - you're helping Jaheira work through her survivor's guilt - but the pacing soon slows to a crawl. You get bits of small talk spread out over several dozen hours of gameplay, and then... suddenly all of this happens.

Don't get me wrong, the writing is decent and the gameplay is always fun, but maybe it could've been spread out a little better? It doesn't really integrate with the plot at all. Jaheira's romance in particular is troublesome in that a vital event trigger is "resting in wilderness," which you just can't do for about 30% of the game and may actually not ever do. Shadows of Amn doesn't have all the overworld travel that Baldur's Gate did - you spend most of your time in cities, caves and dungeons, not so much the forest. The other romances have similar problems, but at least there isn't a blocker like this in there. (I think.) The designers seem to have expected you to spend a llllot of time puttering around in Chapter II.

I did find the sidequest to be emotionally satisfying, though. It's the longest and most involved of the four romances, I think, and I rather like Jaheira.

As for AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION... well, we've already discussed the romances that exist in the games, but what about the ones you'd like to see added? That could be interesting. If you could pick any one character who exists in any of the Baldur's Gate games and make them romanceable, which one would you pick and why? Or, alternatively, is there a romance mod you like? And finally, if neither of those topics seem appealing, what is your favourite Bioware romance?

Kish

2018-05-19, 09:30 AM

"Terminsel." Only one T in Elminster.

After you kill Galverey, if you try to remove Jaheira from the party, she'll throw a tantrum, ranting about how she "turned [her] back on many of [her] own brethen" for you, how dare you treat her like "any other member of the group." This is unrelated to the romance; Jaheira just has that much of a superiority complex.

As illustrated by Galverey, Dermin's fake Harpers were going to keep functioning as a "force for good" in the Realms, but actually choose their targets more for being unpopular and wealthy than for actual evidence of evil-doing. A historical example of something similar springs to mind immediately, but of course I can't say what it is on this forum.

Spore

2018-05-19, 10:27 AM

There it is. The update that has been made entirely better by the absence of the book. I know this is the whole point of the book. But I think I get you now. I feel better by NOT reading through someone suffering through a bad book. A book that bad by proxy is not enjoyable, is it?

Jaheira's romance in particular is troublesome in that a vital event trigger is "resting in wilderness," which you just can't do for about 30% of the game and may actually not ever do. [...]The designers seem to have expected you to spend a llllot of time puttering around in Chapter II.

According to the spectacular sample size of...two (me and my high school DM), I think it's fair to say that yes, we spent much time in the overworlds. But also as an impatient inattentive boy I botched Jaheira's romance some part after the first visit to Harper Hold. I think I said something insensitive about Khalid. But more along the lines of: "Oh will you move on already. His death was AT LEAST two weeks ago."

But this chapter also emphasises a confusion with me. Jaheira's TN alignment does not match her behaviour at all. Or it does, I am not expert on D&D alignment dynamics. But I have oftne felt NG is far more fitting.

Well, we've already discussed the romances that exist in the games, but what about the ones you'd like to see added?

Keldorn, hands down. He is likable, handsome and has a character to booth. And Cernd. There is little reason anyone ever picks him up. Statwise he is just a terrible Jaheira, he is incredibly distant to pick up and has little else going for him. And a guy that can transform into a werewolf is weird enough that you can both talk about the duality of men and beast. I'd enjoy this.

Keltest

2018-05-19, 10:56 AM

But this chapter also emphasises a confusion with me. Jaheira's TN alignment does not match her behaviour at all. Or it does, I am not expert on D&D alignment dynamics. But I have oftne felt NG is far more fitting.
As a (multiclass) druid, she is mechanically required to have a true neutral alignment, because druids are silly like that in this edition. In practice, she's definitely Good, not Neutral, but presumably they didn't want to have to deal with explaining that Jaheira is a special druid who isn't subject to the normal alignment restrictions for her class.

Mordokai

2018-05-19, 11:14 AM

But this chapter also emphasises a confusion with me. Jaheira's TN alignment does not match her behaviour at all. Or it does, I am not expert on D&D alignment dynamics. But I have oftne felt NG is far more fitting.

That has more to do with the facts that druids can only be TN in SoA(and entire second edition of DnD, if memory serves) than anything else. I(and I know quite a few people who share this opinion) agree with you... Jaheira is far more NG than TN.

As for romances... I personally quite like(and I imagine I'm going to catch some flak for that) Imoen romance. Jaheira is my favourite "canon" romance, but as far as mods go, I really dig the one that lets you romance your sister. I know there has been a mod in development that would allow you to romance Sarevok, but I think it's never been finished.

Someday, I'm gonna go to trouble and install a mod that lets you go with Solaufein(apologies for possibly misspelling that)... I heard good things about it. And there's a mod that allows you to romance random NPCs(some more... carnally than others) that I quite like. Romantic encounters or some such. Good stuff, especially for those solo runs.

Spore

2018-05-19, 12:11 PM

You're divine siblings. It's practically tradition to at the very least extremely like each other. :smallamused:

Honest Tiefling

2018-05-19, 05:48 PM

Keldorn, hands down. He is likable, handsome and has a character to booth.

Keldorn also has troubles with the missus, and has to choose between his love and his devotion. A third option would have been interesting, but probably doomed. Would have been nice to have some bittersweet options.

Speaking of doomed, Yoshimo is my second pick. I will always miss you and your Anomen-mocking ways.

Divine siblings or not, it would have been nice to set up Imoen in the first game, but in the second, uh...Timing ain't right.

Guancyto

2018-05-19, 06:07 PM

Haer'Dalis, definitely.

It really does sort of baffle me that they went with Anomen for the ladies' sole romance option when there's a much better guy right over there, and incidentally he already has a romance route, it's just not with CHARNAME!

mangosta71

2018-05-20, 01:53 AM

Calemyr

2018-05-20, 09:58 AM

There were several changes I always made with ShadowKeeper. One was making Jaheira NG.

I think Valygar could have been another interesting romance for females. Or maybe Edwin for evil female PCs. Nalia could potentially be another good option; I understand that there's a mod that enables a Nalia romance.

Also, one of my favorite PC lines in BG2 comes up in Jaheira's romance quest, but you picked a different response. "I have violent thoughts all the time. Really good ones. I'm having some right now. You'd laugh if you could see them. Well, *you* might not..."

That's not really part of Jaheira's romance, just her personal quest which does draw off of it. You get pulled into that interrogation if Jaheira's in your party regardless of gender or LI. But yes, that line is a personal favorite of mine as well. Anytime the main character can be an absolute troll scores points with me, especially when the target richly deserves it like in this case.

The deArnise Romance (http://www.pocketplane.net/mambo/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=119&Itemid=118) by JCompton is a great Nalia romance mod crippled only by its creator's inability to extend it into ToB, which is a major pet peeve of mine when it comes to BG2 romances. It's well written and a lot of fun, but I really wanted to see how she and the relationship would evolve in ToB.

Other ones I'm rather partial to:
Tyris Flare (http://www.gibberlings3.net/tyris/): A pretty stylish and substantial one, drawing a fighter/mage from the game of Golden Axe and dropping her in front of your party. Tyris's primary goal is getting back to her world and defeating her own end boss, helping you in the meantime is a worthy endeavor. Her portraits (she's got 6 options) are great, the writing is solid, the voice is solid, and the mod fittingly uses Golden Axe music to backdrop her love talks. She's stylish, pleasant, and extremely useful. A go-to for me when I want my main character to simply have a partner in crime.

The NPC Flirt Pack (http://www.pocketplane.net/mambo/index.php?option=content&task=blogcategory&id=104&Itemid=81): If you're going with the original four options, this is a very good call, as it adds a lot to the relationships. Things like random flirtatious banters with your love interest as well as player-initiated conversations for once. It makes romance part of the game rather than a side-quest, if you follow me, a recurring element that doesn't end on a set note.

Sheena (http://www.blackwyrmlair.net/~sheenaslair/Index.htm): Like De'Arnise Romance, this one suffers from no ToB content, which drops it a large chunk in my eye. So the fact that it's still one of my favorites should say something. Sheena is a half red dragon fighter/mage multiclass with the ability to turn into a half dragon (using Icewind Dale artwork). You can't get her until you kill Firkraag, so she's a pretty late addition, but she's quite interesting from both a narrative and a mechanical perspective. She doesn't pursue a romance unless urged on by Mazzy, and the friendship between the half-dragon and the halfling demi-paladin is a welcome addition. Plus, it's a good excuse to bring Valygar along as well, because his knight/squire relationship with Mazzy is wonderful. The one somewhat downside about the romance is that at some point she goes Dragonheart on you and gives you a point of her constitution, but the cost is that your lives become linked and you die if she dies, creating two game-ending conditions instead of just the usual one. Also, due to using the half-dragon sprite, she's limited in what weapons she can equip, such as halberds, greatswords, and quarterstaffs. The real downside of this mod, however, is that the original author's website is long gone and he has pretty much dropped off the face of the earth.

Yvette (http://www.shsforums.net/forum/615-colours-of-infinity/): An interesting mod regarding a cleric of Sune who is trapped in a drawing. After communicating with her through the painting for a while she breaks free and joins you in the game. It's a pretty interesting way to initiate the relationship and the story is well told throughout. Hard to say more. It's sweet and creative and well done.

Kelsey (http://www.pocketplane.net/mambo/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=81&Itemid=66): A love interest for Imoen rather than for my main character. Kelsey is a pretty interesting character all around. A sorcerer more interested in economics than magics, he finds himself hunted by arcane researchers who want to dissect him to learn how sorcery works forcing him to stay on the run. Not unlike Neera's plot, just written a decade earlier and without the frustrating tsundere angle. Kelsey is well integrated into the game, having comments on events as if he were actually part of the world, and will romance Imoen if the main character is male or otherwise engaged. He's a very likable, level-headed guy who brings a lot of arcane power to the table.

One of my recurring goals in this series is to build a party with the most interparty relationships (not necessarily romantic) possible. Minsc can claim Nalia or Aerie as a new "witch" to protect. Valygar and Mazzy have a great knight/squire relationship. Aerie and Haer'dalis can form a romance of their own. Things like that. I haven't found the perfect combination, but I'm still working on it.

Spore

2018-05-20, 10:41 AM

Oh, Minsc Aerie AND Haer Dalis together are a delight, I tell ya. Nothing like two horny well motivated men fighting over a trophy woman.

Honest Tiefling

2018-05-20, 11:10 AM

It really does sort of baffle me that they went with Anomen for the ladies' sole romance option when there's a much better guy right over there, and incidentally he already has a romance route, it's just not with CHARNAME!

Nalia would have been a better contender for a straight female romance despite missing some qualifications. A pile of burning garbage would have been a better choice!

Oh, Minsc Aerie AND Haer Dalis together are a delight, I tell ya. Nothing like two horny well motivated men fighting over a trophy woman.

I feel like this could work, sarcasm aside. Evil options would involve punching Aerie in the face, while good aligned ones involve communication, leadership, and respect.

Then again, Aerie is a *****. Screw her. Just punch her in the face anyway.

Kish

2018-05-20, 11:19 AM

If Minsc reacts negatively to the Aerie/Haer'Dalis romance, or shows any form of romantic rather than purely protective interest in Aerie himself...that's from a mod.

Mordokai

2018-05-20, 01:51 PM

The NPC Flirt Pack (http://www.pocketplane.net/mambo/index.php?option=content&task=blogcategory&id=104&Itemid=81): If you're going with the original four options, this is a very good call, as it adds a lot to the relationships. Things like random flirtatious banters with your love interest as well as player-initiated conversations for once. It makes romance part of the game rather than a side-quest, if you follow me, a recurring element that doesn't end on a set note.

Oooooh, how could I have forgot that one? :smallbiggrin: I really love this one... so many things added to make romance feel more... organic :smallsmile: If I remember right, it even adds some silliness, which may not be everybody's cup of tea, but I really dig it. Nice to see Jaheira let her hair down every once in a while, so to speak.

Khay

2018-05-26, 04:36 AM

Oh man, I forgot how many good mods there were for the Baldur's Gate series. Someday I'll have to do a modded playthrough as well. (Though I probably won't play the games for some time after I'm done with the thread.)

Hey everyone! We're back to regular content now. I was able to re-build my buffer thanks to last week's intermission, so everything should go smoothly now. In Chapter Twenty-Two, we finally make it to Suldanessalar.

In the previous chapter, Abdel killed Bodhi and Irenicus abducted Imoen. Today, we'll follow up on that second one.

"I want to ..." Imoen whispered, her mind a violent haze of fast-approaching hell, "go... home."
She was stretched, magically sedated, across a huge, broken, jagged-edged slab of greentraced marble in the middle of a city elves now long-dead once called Myth Rhynn. All around was the broken remnants of a great elven city, now gone to the wilderness and wandering creatures both benign and hellspawned.

Imoen seems to have partially recovered from her Bhaal possession. Perhaps that's a side effect of the magic sedation?

The final act of Bhaal is Dead! diverges significantly from its counterpart in Shadows of Amn. I think this is the first time the novel is actually expanding the world a little - Myth Rhynn (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Myth_Rhynn) does not appaear in the game.

Anyway, Irenicus is doing some bad stuff and Imoen does not get to go home.

The marble slab was tilted on one edge, leaning at a sharp angle. Imoen lay sprawled across it, her tattered clothes gone now, and a hundred twisted sigils traced on her pale, goosefleshed skin. (...)
Irenicus himself gagged on his own bile and stepped back. He lost his voice to the shock, revulsion, and twisted, freakish pleasure of the sight of his last desperate hope coming to fruition. (...)
"Yes," he whispered, his voice no more than a painful squeak. "Yes. Change!"
Imoen screamed, and it was the last sound she made as a human. Her face changed first. There was a loud sound like fabric ripping and the skin of Imoen's pretty, young, smooth-cheeked face fell away in ragged, blood-soaked ribbons.

Did... Imoen really need to be naked for this one? I mean, really? It seems to me she would've just grown out of them. She wasn't naked the first time around, back in Spellhold. Maybe Irenicus just wanted to practice his body painting skills, but this is neither the time nor the place for that.

Imoen goes through a grisly and painful transformation. Her jaw pushes out, her teeth grow sharp and needle-like, spikes sprout from her back and she grows a third arm out of her stomach. The process is accompanied by popping bones, ripping skin, dripping pus and spraying blood. It's quite gruesome. And moist.

"Bhaal..." Irenicus whispered, his face a twisted rictus of shock and triumph. "It is you... it is you..."
The bulb on the end of the quivering arm broke open even as a second arm unfurled itself from the growing beast. The hand that bulb had formed had more fingers than Irenicus could easily count. The fingers were set on the long, rectangular palm at angles and with joints placed so that it looked like no hand ever seen on Faerun. The fingers grew long, curved talons, which shone in the dawn's light in a way that revealed their razor sharp edges.
"The Ravager," Irenicus gasped. "The Ravager awakens."

It's nice of Irenicus to provide running commentary. That makes my job a lot easier.

The Ravager (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Bhaal#Avatars) is distinct from the Slayer. It's another one of Bhaal's avatars, but the Ravager is like... well, think about it this way: If the human form is casual dress, and the Slayer is what you'd wear to the office if your boss is in that day, then the Ravager is business megaformal. (http://shencomix.com/post/171847625289)

Imoen grows another arm, then another, each with razor-taloned hands. The slime and blood dry out and harden into a chitinous shell, and she screams, knocking Irenicus over.

t turned its enormous saurian head toward Irenicus. The necromancer's knees began to shake, but he managed to stand. "Obey me," he whispered. (...)
"Obey me!" Irenicus barked at the thing, and its inhuman eyes burned into him. There was nothing of Imoen left — nothing human at all.
"Suldanessellar!" Irenicus shrieked. "Ellesime! The Tree!"
The Ravager roared into the dead morning air of Myth Rhynn, raged at the rising sun, then turned in the direction of Suldanessellar and took its first step. The ground shook, and Irenicus put a hand to his stomach to settle it.
He felt it and watched it go on its way to Suldanessellar, on its way to Ellesime, on its way to his own immortality, and Jon Irenicus began to cry.

I've hinted before that Book!Irenicus has a different plan than Game!Irenicus. Rather than take the souls of the Bhaalspawn, this version of Irenicus seems to use them essentially as siege weapons. It's sensible enough - the Ravager is a challenge for Epic-level adventurers (http://www.sorcerers.net/community/threads/help-with-the-ravager-spoilers.20533/). The local defenders wouldn't stand a chance. It makes me wonder why Irenicus grabbed Abdel as well as Imoen, though.

* * * * *

Speaking of the big guy, though: Let's check back in with our (sigh) protagonist.

Abdel burst into the forest of Tethir in a blue flash and just let himself collapse on the ground. The pieces of the artifact slipped out of his hands, and he made no effort to hold them, or retrieve them. He heard Jaheira call his name, and he put one hand down on the ground, intending to lift himself up to look at her. He heard her running toward him, and she slid to a stop next to him in the bed of leaves.
"The Rynn Lanthorn," Elhan said from somewhere not far behind and above him. "He's done it."
"I've done it," Abdel whispered, his throat tight and painful.
Jaheira's warm, soft hands touched him, and he rolled over to look at her, unashamed by the tears streaming down his face. The tears mixed with traces of Bodhi's blood.

Abdel keeps his face pressed against the ground, reaffirming his decision to take Imoen back to Candlekeep. Jaheira just kind of... holds him for a moment. Elhan's mages gather up the metal scraps, and we switch to his viewpoint for a moment.

* * * * *

Elhan stood at the edge of the Swanmay's Glade, the tall trees of Suldanessellar in front of him. "Do it," he told the mages in Elvish. "Open it." Elhan was ringed by several of Tethir's most powerful mages, and several of her weakest. Elves as young as twenty years stood side by side with elves who'd seen two thousand summers pass.

This seems exceedingly young. (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/93071/could-an-elf-pc-start-adventuring-at-the-age-of-20) Elves aren't generally considered to be mature until the age of 110, (http://people.wku.edu/charles.plemons/ad&d/races/age.html) though D&D is inconsistent about when exactly physical maturity happens. You probably don't want them wielding magic, anyway. Can't Elhan at least find some high schoolers or something?

Elhan scanned the line of mages around him. Chanting words that were old when humans first emerged from caves to stare in dumb fascination at the stars, the mages brought the fragments together.

Nice to see that all the elf supremacism was kept.

While Elhan is waiting for the spellcasters to do their thing, he provides a little more exposition. They can't get into Suldanessalar because of a magic barrier constructed by Irenicus, but the the lantern has enough magic power to blow a hole in it.

A wind blasted down from above, and Elhan had to close his eyes against the force of it. He was driven down to one knee.
[i]It'll be over soon enough, sister, he thought, letting his mind touch Ellesime's. (...) The mage was thrown back with a shower of sparks, and there was another louder, stronger rumble that knocked Elhan to the ground.
It's open, Ellesime's voice sounded in his head, but it's not over.

Boom! At least we're getting some cool special effects. The telepathic link with Ellesime is new, I think. That should make finding her a little easier.

* * * * *

We then cut back to Abdel, for... frankly a rather confusing section.

Abdel could feel the vibration in the bottom of his feet, could feel the dizzying aftereffects of the teleportation, could feel his friends falling far behind him, could feel an old anger rising in him, could feel that yellow haze that always came before he spilled someone's blood, but none of those things managed to spill through into his conscious mind. He was running to get Imoen. (...)
Irenicus had his back to him, but Abdel was making no effort to quiet his pounding footsteps and gasping, exhausted breathing.

I didn't skip anything. The chapter goes like this: Abdel lies face down in the mud, then the local child prodigies blow up the magic barrier, then Abdel chases after Irenicus. Maybe they were transported to the city? But I thought Irenicus wasn't actually in the city. Last we saw him, he was having a little emotional moment in Myth Rhynn. I'm pretty sure that these are different cities.

Anyway, this chase scene goes exactly like the last one.

The necromancer smiled, spread his arms wide as if he meant to embrace the charging sellsword. Abdel almost ran him through, then ran him over, but Jon Irenicus blinked out of existence only to reappear a few yards to one side. The necromancer had the nerve to laugh at him.

Gee, if only you had a spellcaster on your team, Abdel.

Abdel slips and falls, getting a faceful of gravel. He struggles back to his feet, and Irenicus laughs at him, telling him that Imoen is already gone.

"Your sister," Irenicus laughed, "has achieved her true purpose. She walks Faerun in the guise of your father's avatar. Bhaal is dead, but his blood lives on, his power lives on, and I have twisted it, turned it to my will to kill Ellesime of Suldanessellar and rip from that damn tree what I need to live forever."
Abdel, sword in hand, continued his charge at Irenicus.
The necromancer held up a hand and said, "Don't you want to see? Don't you want to see it?" His voice descended into incoherent babbling.
Abdel pulled his sword back, determined to see if the necromancer could live without a head, when something hit him in the chest. It was as if he'd run into a stone wall, and the wall kicked back.

You'd think that after eight or nine tries, Abdel would realise that charging Irenicus simply isn't going to work. But... nah. Abdel refuses to even consider using tactics, even if that means wilfully endangering his own life.

Irenicus knocks him back with a gust of wind, and Abdel slams into a stone slab. His back produces a nauseating crack, and his legs go numb. His spine has been broken. There is a brief flare-up of pain, but Abdel remains conscious.

"You'll die before you see it, then!" the necromancer wailed. "I'll see you in Hell where I'll take your soul and meld it with the essence of the tree, and I'll be a god!" (...) Spittle flew from the corner of his babbling mouth.
Abdel felt a wave of overwhelming nausea. A haze of gray fell over his vision, and his head spun. He turned to one side and retched, but nothing came up. He felt a chill run up his spine, and his ears began to ring.
"Die!" Irenicus shrieked, his voice ragged and shrill. "Die, gods damn you, die!"
Abdel didn't die, but it took a long time for the sickness to pass.
"The s-son of B-Bhaal," Irenicus stuttered. "You are the son of Bhaal. I've killed a thousand men with that spell ... a thousand mortals." The necromancer cackled, falling to one knee. His eyes were red, still bulging and looking painful, as if they might burst. "It should have killed you. It has never failed to kill anyone— except Ellesime. Oh, you will serve me and serve me well."
Something popped in Abdel's spine, and sensation returned to his legs in a wave of prickling fire. He stood, tightened his grip on his sword, and fixed his furious gaze on Jon Irenicus.

I'm not sure what that spell was supposed to be. AD&D has plenty of instant death spells, but none of them quite fit. Power Word: Kill (http://pandaria.rpgworlds.info/cant/rules/adnd_spells.htm#Power%20Word,%20Kill) and Death Spell (http://pandaria.rpgworlds.info/cant/rules/adnd_spells.htm#Death%20Spell) would work on almost all mortals, but they would also outright fail to affect Abdel. He's too beefy for that. They shouldn't even make him nauseous. Old-style Disintegrate (http://pandaria.rpgworlds.info/cant/rules/adnd_spells.htm#Disintegrate) has the same problem, and it should be immediately obvious when Disintegrate doesn't work, since Abdel would... you know... crumble to dust. If Abdel can somehow recover lost levels, then Energy Drain (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Energy_Drain) might work, but a single Energy Drain would come nowhere close to killing Abdel. Maybe Finger of Death (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Finger_of_Death_(arcane)), with the nausea representing 2d8+1 points of damage? That might be it. Finger of Death should have a far higher failure rate than 0.2%, though.

Also, I'm starting to understand why passive Regeneration is kind of a priority for high-level adventurers. I'm pretty sure that "broken spine mends itself in 1d4 rounds" is beyond the scope of even troll regeneration, but then again Abdel is an actual demigod.

Anyway, the party is about to catch up to Abdel, which means that the chapter is almost over.

"Abdel!" Jaheira screamed from some distance away.
Yoshimo's voice followed suit, then Jaheira's again.
"Where is she?" Abdel asked Irenicus.
"You can't do anything for her now, Abdel," Irenicus said, his voice strangely subdued. "It's all over. I've won."
Abdel, snarling like a dumb, enraged animal, shot forward. Irenicus said three foreign words and was gone before Abdel could take off his head.

Abdel. Please. Please just take the spellcasters along with you next time. I'm begging you here.

Last time - before the brief intermission - we defeated Bodhi and recovered the Rhynn Lanthorn. Before she died, Bodhi shared some... rather interesting information about the elves. We'll take the lantern back to Elhan and see what he has to say about this.

https://s8.postimg.cc/510cp5g51/M4u8_Lcv.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/M4u8Lcv)

In case you were wondering, I visited Athkatla after clearing out Watcher's Keep to pick up a few of the absurdly expensive prestige items. (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Robe_of_Vecna) So we have some travel time ahead of us.

We should probably freshen up before we talk to-

https://s8.postimg.cc/4bhkcsnb9/F2_Lj_EM8.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/F2LjEM8)

Hahahahaha oh my god what is wrong with you Aerie.

Anyway, like I was saying: We should rest. I'm sure Elhan won't mind if we sleep in his front yard for 8 hours.

We have another dream...

https://s8.postimg.cc/brgtyliqd/5_KWLXIP.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/5KWLXIP)

... but this one is... different.

:vaarsuvius: DRELLE: Awaken. Awaken and hear me.
:vaarsuvius: DRELLE: I bring visions of warning, of what is happening now, and what may happen soon.
:vaarsuvius: DRELLE: This image will speak true, for you are of two sides, and the liars have said their part.
:vaarsuvius: DRELLE: You travel in search of yourself, divided, splintered. There is a piece of you missing.
:vaarsuvius: DRELLE: The hole inside you fills with death, with darkness, while another... Irenicus... kills with your strength.
:vaarsuvius: DRELLE: Look. Look at the destruction he has wrought. See the corruption that he brings.

This is new. I am not sure who or... what this Dream Vision is meant to represent. Some buried part of our self, perhaps? I don't think we've seen her before. It might be the part of our self that took on Imoen's appearance in the Spellhold dream, before the loss of our soul, but that's conjecture.

She has some visions to show us.

https://s8.postimg.cc/jwyvwrep1/w_Kyg_Ve_L.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/wKygVeL)

Ah. This seems more like the kind of dream CHARNAME would have. We watch Irenicus slaughter his way through Suldanessalar for a bit.

https://s8.postimg.cc/63aj7q1j9/d_Xe_XG9q.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/dXeXG9q)

It's not clear if this is literally happening right now, or if it's just symbolic. Is this dream showing us actual events taking place elsewhere? How does CHARNAME know those things? Suldanessalar is shielded from scrying.

:vaarsuvius: DRELLE: He has stolen your future to replace his own, avoided his proper fate. This must be undone.
:vaarsuvius: DRELLE: For your sake, and theirs, you must take back what has been stolen.
:vaarsuvius: DRELLE: If their lives are not enough, then think of your own. You will lose yourself to the hole within.
:vaarsuvius: DRELLE: Yours is the potential to be your own worst enemy, or your own savior.

Well, that still ended on an ominous note.

Now that we've healed and regained all our spell slots, we should talk to the man in charge.

https://s8.postimg.cc/u71aw0rpx/z_Bz_Gk_Pm.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/zBzGkPm)

He is happy to see us. You know, as happy as one can be when one sees a human.

This encounter can go a few different ways, depending on how you played things during the initial meeting with Elhan. If you avoided mention of Bodhi's name, you can call him out on that; and if he offered the stakes and holy water on his own initiative, CHARNAME will consider that suspicious.

:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: You return. All has been relatively quiet here. I believe the Drow were mostly satisfied with the destruction of our temple. They have made no further serious advancement. Yet.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: You have the Lanthorn! It is in the hands of the murderous vampire Bodhi no longer! I feel the tide of this crisis is certainly changing.
:roy: CHARNAME: How do you know that? I mentioned her name, but never said she was a vampire.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: Perhaps not, but you did ask for Holy Water and stakes. One needs only put two and two together to make the correct assumption.
:roy: CHARNAME: Ridiculous. Why bother with this dance? I know you are hiding something. Bodhi was clear on this.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: Anything said by her or the Exile Irenicus must be treated as suspect! You would do well not to repeat their tales to those that do not need to know them!
:roy: CHARNAME: So, Irenicus is now 'the Exile.' That's not a name for a stranger. Perhaps I should ask around.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: No! This is... This is not for you to know.

Unfortunately, we volunteered that information, so Elhan is able to keep evading. (Also, CHARNAME isn't an elf. That also matters here, a little.)

https://s8.postimg.cc/4bhkctxlx/LTWn_QIT.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/LTWnQIT)

Still, this is all... very suspicious.

:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: I can't tell you, <CHARNAME>, it is not my place to do so. The Exiles, this Irenicus and Bodhi, are criminals. Their crime was great, their punishment greater.
:roy: CHARNAME: And so he has returned for some sort of revenge. I fail to see the great shame in this.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: You do not understand, and I am not prepared to make you. If you wish to know more, you'll have to talk to one of those involved.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: Demin the high priestess, she will tell you. We will have to breach the city to find her. Fortunately my sages have instructed me in the use of the Lanthorn.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: We must go, but most of my elves must remain to hold the Drow. We must not be struggling on two fronts when we face what is in the city.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: Follow, <CHARNAME>, we must let the Lanthorn lead us to Suldanessellar. I can only hope that the Exile will have left us a city to find.

Journal entry:
The Elven city requires my aid.

The Rhynn Lanthorn will now guide us into Suldanessellar. The majority of Elhan's elves will have to remain here to rout the Drow, meaning I will be left to deal with Irenicus and whatever he has unleashed upon the city. Elhan has still not revealed the origins of Irenicus' hatred towards the elves, and has shed little light on why he refers to the mage as 'the Exile', saying only that the crime was great, the punishment greater. Irenicus must have done something especially abhorrent to the elves. Once in the city I will see if the high priestess Demin has any more information, if the city is intact at all.

In the end, Elhan will not say anything useful, no matter how hard you press him. Even if your romantic partner has been vamped. All he'll do is say he's "sorry for your loss." Bah. Elves.

Anyway, we have some... pressing matters we need to handle.

https://s8.postimg.cc/qnfd68c5h/0_Nsg_Nbu.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/0NsgNbu)

You'll recall that the entrance to Suldanessalar has been hidden behind a glamer of some sort. The Lanthorn should help us pierce that veil.

:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: It is here, I can feel it. The Lanthorn is almost buzzing, there can be no mistake. Stand back, and I shall make the way clear!

<The screen shakes a little, and the entrance to Suldanessalar appears in the tree.>

:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: Ahh, sweet Suldanessellar. I have been away too long. I must determine what Irenicus has done within the city.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: Walk with reverence when you step. You are going where precious few outside of the elven community have even seen.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: Follow me within, and we shall determine the extent of the damage. I shall meet you on the other side of this passage. Do not tarry.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: Keep that Drow of yours under guard. None of her kind has seen the beauty of an elven city since their fall. I would blindfold her if I could. Others would put her eyes out.

Okay, maybe wait with the racism until after we've saved your city? I'm just saying.

Although the story is clearly heading for a climax, this is not a point of no return. The branch you can see in the screenshot is located on the "Forest of Tethir" map. (You know, the one with Lanfear on it.) If you want, you can walk over to the area transition and go do a few more sidequests.

... the elves would kind of deserve that, but... we do also kind of need our soul back. So... Suldanessalar it is.

https://s8.postimg.cc/m1j8xvyc5/erp_Yy_JD.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/erpYyJD)

The area transition cutscenes in Shadows of Amn are all simple camera pans through pre-rendered environments. Remember that this was the 2000s, though. This was still quite expensive. That's why the draw distance sucks so much.

https://s8.postimg.cc/z5otaky3p/z_RHr_DP5.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/zRHrDP5)

Welcome to CHAPTER VII. This is not the end, but you can see it from here.

https://s8.postimg.cc/6stbk5udx/E0f_Xk_Lu.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/E0fXkLu)

This version of the Infinity Engine could only handle rendering a few characters at any given time. That's why SoA has the "only 5 summons" limit, and I believe it's also why the army sent to retake the city consists of six people.

:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: It is as I feared. The madman Irenicus has unleashed his anger upon the city. And worse yet, I now recognize the magic he has employed.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: Corruption magics, illusions from a race of spirits, the Rakshasa. Such creatures are very predatory. It would appear that there is no depth to which Irenicus will not sink.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: Suldanessellar is under siege. With this number of beasts under his command, Irenicus will be very hard to unseat.
:roy: CHARNAME: Direct assault, I say! Let his lackeys come! I'll take them all down!
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: We must proceed with caution. Not everyone in the city can withstand an onslaught like this. Their safety must take priority.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: You must seek out Ellesime. She will know what to do. She has a link to the divine not unlike your own, though through a much more benevolent spirit.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: Failing that, find the high priestess Demin. If anyone had warning of Irenicus and made preparations, it would be one of those two.
:vaarsuvius: ELHAN: Go, <CHARNAME>, I will garrison this area with my elite War Guards. We will shepherd people to safety as you secure the inner city.

Journal entry:
Getting Inside the Palace in Suldanessellar

The Rhynn Lanthorn has shone the way to Suldanessellar, and Elhan was grieved to see that the city is under siege by multitudes of creatures brought by Irenicus, including devilish Rakshasa whose illusionary magicks hid the city in the first place. Elhan has told me to seek out Queen Ellesime or High Priestess Demin, either of which may be able to do something about the invasion or help me find Irenicus. Elhan himself will remain at the city's entrance and shepherd refugees safely out of the city.

The War Guards take a moment to cast their buffs (https://i.imgur.com/3G2nTRh.png), then charge ahead on their respective missions.

https://s8.postimg.cc/ohl2bfb6d/SZYYSCJ.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/SZYYSCJ)

As a civilized area, Suldanessalar is pre-explored. It seems that rule applies even to active war zones. We can see our starting point, and Demin's house over there. We have a lot of work to do if we want to make it from point A to point B. Let's get right on that...

... starting in the next update. We have plenty of book still to cover and there isn't a lot of game left, so we need to pace ourselves.

This chapter is... confusing. I can't quite make sense of the sequence of events. I've re-read it a few times, but I can't tell you how we got from "elementary school kids de-veil Suldanessalar" to "Abdel is swording at Irenicus in Myth Rhynn." It's possible that a teleportation spell was triggered, or that Abdel just ran there, but it's entirely unclear. (If the latter: How did he know where to run?) Since I can't quite deciper that, I feel like this might be a good time to step back a little and take another big-picture look at our protagonist and our antagonist.

Abdel, we've previously established, is almost impossible to defeat in a straight fight. We've seen hints of that before, but this chapter really doubles down on it. He gets his goddamn back broken, and he's hit by a death spell right after that, but he just... shrugs it off. He grows a brand new spine within seconds - a minute at most.
I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, Abdel's healing factor is a well-established superpower. It has been foreshadowed a few times, and this is a good payoff for that. A resistance to death magic fits the "supernatural vitality" theme, and it nicely rounds out his power set.

On the other hand, there seem to be no limits to Abdel's regeneration. Loss of blood does nothing, obviously, and neither do flesh wounds, but he can also regrow lost limbs, and broken bones mend within seconds. The thread has jokingly called Abdel "invincible" a few times, but that may actually be true. Having a powerful character is fine and all, but I feel like this takes a lot of tension out of the constant combat encounters.

"But Khay, Abdel has been defeated before!" I hear you protest. Well, that's true. Abdel can't be hindered. He does have weaknesses, which is to say that he can auto-lose a fight if a mind whammy is involved. But here's the thing: It can only ever be an auto-lose. Abdel can only be threatened by something that can kill him outright, and obviously he can't be killed outright because this is the second novel in a three-novel series. Combine that with the character's outright refusal to ever prepare for anything, and you end up in a situation where every encounter is decided by narrative fiat. If the enemy randomly has access to a mind whammy, Abdel loses. If the enemy randomly doesn't have access to a mind whammy, Abdel wins. It just doesn't feel like he's earning his victories, you know?

Book!Irenicus, for his part, is... rather different from his game incarnation. He has a different backstory, and he's oddly emotive. See, Game!Irenicus only really has three modes - cold triump, cold anger and cold indifferent sneering. His veneer of superiority only really starts to crack when things go seriously wrong for him, and at that point, he's all about rage. It adds to his menace, and it makes sense given that he lost his soul and his ability to feel emotions. He has a very reduced spectrum of emotions, and they're all negative.

The Irenicus of the books, on the other hand, cycles through emotions really quickly. Just look at this chapter - he experiences shock, triumph, disgust, rage and happy crying, all in the span of a few minutes. He seems almost manic at times. And, of course, he loves trolling Abdel and always giggles his way through every fight.

I... am torn on this. I mean, it's obviously a different character entirely. As an adaptation, this is dreadful. But considered on its own, it sort of works, I think. Book!Irenicus is a lot more flamboyant than Game!Irenicus, which says a lot considering that the latter invented the butt-cape. He just seems a lot less stable. You can make a character seem off-putting (https://youtu.be/HQdVrQofPis?t=236) by having them over-emote (https://youtu.be/HQdVrQofPis?t=339) or switch modes too quickly. The Joker (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joker_(character)) relies on this, at least in the more serious portrayals of the character.

That said, this sort of undercuts Book!Irenicus. It feels... a bit silly at times. Part of the reason Game!Irenicus works so well is that he does a good job seeming invincible. The game keeps you from fighting him, he rarely loses his composure, and you frequently get to see him blasting mid-bosses apart. Book!Irenicus, on the other hand, spends a lot of time giggling and crying and jumping and choking back bile. That sort of thing.

I will say that I'm glad that Abdel also gets to occasionally feel sadness or disgust. See, it's hard to miss the fact that Irenicus is a giggly prancing doofus (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SissyVillain) full of book learning, while Abdel-the-swordsman is a tedious blob of masculine virtues. Abdel did develop some human feelings in this book, which softens things a little, but the theme is still present (and uncomfortable).

The next few chapters will continue to provide... insights... into Irenicus and Abdel both. There are five chapters of Suldanessalar left, so... let's see how that goes, shall we?

For today's AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION, I'd like to step beyond Baldur's Gate a little. We'll be breaking through the siege on Suldanessalar in the coming chapters, but... the fact that it's a siege doesn't really comes across that well. This is partially due to engine limitations. The old Infinity Engine could only handle so many actors at the same time, so Suldanessalar feels less like a city under siege and more like a city with occasional bits of skirmishing. Throne of Bhaal will come back to this theme with Saradush, but even there most of the besieging army is strategically kept offscreen.

So here's my question to you: How do you feel about "big ol' siege" scenes, either in videogames or more specifically in fantasy RPGs? This is a popular theme, so it crops up a lot. Each game in the Baldur's Gate series has its own example, and of course there's an example in the common ancestor of all high fantasy (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_the_Hornburg). Do you have a favourite example? A least favourite example? Or just something that stands out in your memory?

Keltest

2018-05-26, 07:31 AM

In my experience, most fantasy works tend to use the word "siege" to refer to any assault on any walled fortification. Obviously, as you hinted at, this is wrong. The only times I think ive actually seen a proper siege in any of the fantasy works ive explored are the siege of Saradush, sort of, and a couple times in the Black Company series by Glen Cook. Even the battle of the Hornburg wasn't really a siege, it was an assault that happened to take a while.

Spore

2018-05-26, 07:32 AM

Did... Imoen really need to be naked for this one? I mean, really? It seems to me she would've just grown out of them.

Nakedness represents purity and vulnerability. So yes, if the author did not go into creepy detail about it, it adds to the story. Also if he wants to witness the transformation, areas obscured by clothing are going to be a hindrance.

also body horror.

The process is accompanied by popping bones, ripping skin, dripping pus and spraying blood.

then the Ravager is business megaformal (http://shencomix.com/post/171847625289).

I am curious which form you consider demimagnate. :D

It makes me wonder why Irenicus grabbed Abdel as well as Imoen, though.

As several people in this forum would point out. Even an epic monster has limited actions. Having two is an encounter.

"Obey me!" Irenicus barked at the thing

That was awfully simple. You'd take more time training a dog breed that responds well to training than commanding a demonic form of a dead god. Weird.

unashamed by the tears streaming down his face.

Do I see a hint of character development here?

This seems exceedingly young. Elves aren't generally considered to be mature until the age of 110, though D&D is inconsistent about when exactly physical maturity happens. You probably don't want them wielding magic, anyway.

This is a city under attack. You need....wait Book!Suldanessalar is never under siege...

They can't get into Suldanessalar because of a magic barrier constructed by Irenicus, but the the lantern has enough magic power to blow a hole in it.

You know when in films every high tech contraption doubles as a bomb? Yeah, this is the fantasy equivalent. When in doubt, every major artifact doubles as a fireball.

I'm not sure what that spell was supposed to be. AD&D has plenty of instant death spells, but none of them quite fit

Irenicus casts "Father's rapture" ingame. Maybe it's that one. Maybe he has 10th level spells, and somehow knows a 10th level spells (rather than 3.5's solution to metamagic up 9th level spells to use the 10th levels, or Infinity Engine's solution to emulate these spells with the high level abilties.

Irenicus said three foreign words and was gone

This just in: kay. thanks. bye. now official vocal components for Teleport!

Aerie: No wonder Khalid was the only man who would marry you.

I think I start to get why you people dont like Aerie...

I am not sure who or... what this Dream Vision is meant to represent

Come on, the actor description even spells out "dream ellisime"...

As a civilized area, Suldanessalar is pre-explored. It seems that rule applies even to active war zones.

It's only sensible to give the guy a map of your city even if he travels with a drow. Maybe that somewhat explains the threat of gouging out eyes?

If the enemy randomly has access to a mind whammy, Abdel loses. If the enemy randomly doesn't have access to a mind whammy, Abdel wins. It just doesn't feel like he's earning his victories, you know?

High level D&D always is kind of rocket tag. Also with a wizard antagonist you can only go so far as to which spells affect or dont affect the protagonist. That being said, Athans didn't even try. There's a multitude of debuffs he could have strained Abdel with, and powered him down to human levels.

See, it's hard to miss the fact that Irenicus is a giggly prancing doofus full of book learning, while Abdel-the-swordsman is a tedious blob of masculine virtues.

I would not go as far. But Book!Irenicus gives the vibe that a standard sorcerous villain would make in a work like that. Take the wizard apprentice that found Creshinibon (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Crenshinibon) in one of the first Drizzt books. He made himself a castle, he forced a balor into his bidding, all with the giggly fun of a high school student that was given ultimate power. It make less sense with Irenicus.

But when you are a wizard with centuries of successes under your belt I can assume you are either incredibly light-hearted or battle-hardened. With the best archetype - for me - being the silly fun guy, that deep down knows not to underestimate his foe. But Book!Irenicus can only work as an overconfident idiot because if he calculated one half of the avenues Abdel could attack him and win, he would actually default to winning.

And the goal to winning is not killing Abdel in this case. It's to stall until he has his divine power.

So here's my question to you: How do you feel about "big ol' siege" scenes, either in videogames or more specifically in fantasy RPGs? This is a popular theme, so it crops up a lot.

They are overdone and since most RPG engines are optimized to show a few dozen assets with more quality rather than hundreds of poorly animated foot soldiers, it ruins the immersion in most of them. In Skyrim it's 20 soldiers per side for the epic conclusion ot the civil war. In Oblivion I think you fight your demons attacking the Imperial city with a small squad of 5 elite Blades protecting their emperor. In BG 2, you assault a huge city with 6 people.

A close comparison is IWD 2 where the city gets attacked by orcs. There is kind of works. It's still just about 100ish orcs and goblins attacking, but Ten Towns, attacks are supposed to happen everywhere at once, and with Targos being a fisher town, it is excepted that only a few guards and militia form the defense. Ah, I think I'll delve into that game for the weekend.

Khay

2018-05-28, 12:42 PM

In my experience, most fantasy works tend to use the word "siege" to refer to any assault on any walled fortification.

They are overdone and since most RPG engines are optimized to show a few dozen assets with more quality rather than hundreds of poorly animated foot soldiers, it ruins the immersion in most of them. In Skyrim it's 20 soldiers per side for the epic conclusion ot the civil war. In Oblivion I think you fight your demons attacking the Imperial city with a small squad of 5 elite Blades protecting their emperor. In BG 2, you assault a huge city with 6 people.

This is a good point, actually. Thinking about it a little more, I think most successful examples leave the siege mostly off-screen and leave it as a plot device. There's Saradush in Throne of Bhaal, and... uhm... there's... Siege of Avalon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Avalon), I guess?

It occurs to me that I don't actually know a lot of good videogame sieges.

Irenicus casts "Father's rapture" ingame. Maybe it's that one. Maybe he has 10th level spells, and somehow knows a 10th level spells (rather than 3.5's solution to metamagic up 9th level spells to use the 10th levels, or Infinity Engine's solution to emulate these spells with the high level abilties.

Ooh! Sure, that can be my headcanon. Rapture of the Father is a 10th-level instant death effect that doesn't allow a saving throw. Hey, there's some precedent in Imprisonment.

Keltest

2018-05-28, 08:46 PM

It occurs to me that I don't actually know a lot of good videogame sieges.

That's because sieges generally sucked for everybody involved. Soldiers don't like camping out in front of a fortress or whatever for however many months only surviving on rations and stuff, and being inside a siege is obviously bad. Nobody actually wants to simulate that.

Honest Tiefling

2018-05-31, 07:04 PM

That's because sieges generally sucked for everybody involved. Soldiers don't like camping out in front of a fortress or whatever for however many months only surviving on rations and stuff, and being inside a siege is obviously bad. Nobody actually wants to simulate that.

I dunno, I could see quite a few series banking on people being amused by flinging plague victims around. The rest might be a bit boring, but a bit of fire can change that. People love fire.

Through I'm pretty sure that casting 10th level spells is a huge no-no in the canon of Forgotten Realms due to Karsus' little adventure. I uh, think that would require murdering Mystra or making your own weave with blackjack and hookers or something a bit beyond Mister Butt-Flap.

Khay

2018-06-02, 08:31 AM

Through I'm pretty sure that casting 10th level spells is a huge no-no in the canon of Forgotten Realms due to Karsus' little adventure. I uh, think that would require murdering Mystra or making your own weave with blackjack and hookers or something a bit beyond Mister Butt-Flap.

I have to admit I'm not really up on historical Forgotten Realms canon. Wasn't there some sort of exception for epic magic? Buttcape McGee certainly has access to that.

It's been an exceptionally slow week at work, so I'm posting this update a bit early. We've entered the final act of our story, so here is Chapter Twenty-Three: Liberation commencing. I'll be honest, I'm pretty ready to be done with this book. Ah well. Five more chapters to go!

In the last chapter, Abdel had his spine broken by Irenicus, but it wasn't a big deal. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for the city.

There was smoke everywhere, and Abdel almost choked on the thick stench of burning wood, singed hair, and crisping flesh. Screams of fear, shock, sorrow, and pain punctuated the morning air. All around there was fire, elves running, trees burning, and the visceral death of the elven tree city.
Abdel ran off the effects of the teleport that brought them back from Myth Rhynn fast on the heels of the Ravager. The beast must have flown, run faster than anything on Faerun, or teleported itself to beat them there. Jaheira and Yoshimo fanned out behind him.

Okay, so it's literally impossible to beat teleportation for speed, but I guess the Ravager must've something of a head start. Where are all those mages that keep teleporting people around? I feel like those would be handy right now.

Team Abdel shoves through the crowd of refugees fleeing Suldanessalar. The Ravager seems to be attacking more or less at random, causing mayhem across the city.

Behind him, Jaheira raised her voice into a keening chant.
The Ravager hung from the side of one of the enormous trees. Its long, taloned feet dug deeply into the ancient bark, and it had all four hands free. With one mighty limb the creature smashed a hole into the hollow tree and revealed the modest home of an elf family who couldn't possibly have done anything to deserve this. An elf woman screamed and all but threw a squalling infant into a bassinet in one corner of the room. The Ravager picked the woman up as if she weighed nothing and squeezed. The claws were as long as the woman's arms, and they impaled her four times from four different directions. She didn't scream again, but she managed a sob before she died. An elf warrior answered from below with a battle cry that set Abdel's heart racing again.

This is pretty good. I mean, yes, the prose is overwrought, and killing one elf at a time is a bit small-scale for a giant monster, but I'm definitely getting the impression of death and destruction.

The elven warrior fares no batter than the civilian. He is cleanly bitten in half. A mage throws a fireball at the demon, which draws a snarl but causes no visible damage.

Abdel took a step forward, and he looked at the sword in his hand. (...) Against the Ravager, it would be no better than a needle. It was poorly made and cheap and certainly not enchanted in any way.

Abdel is the worst adventurer.

Our hero stares at the Ravager for a while. He has to kill that thing if he wants to save the city, he muses, but that monster used to be Imoen; if he kills Imoen, then Jaheira will be sad. No, seriously, that's his reason:

If he killed Imoen, what would [Jaheira] think? She had tried so hard to turn him away from his father's blood. Any death at his hands was a betrayal of that. Wasn't it?

Yeah, it's waaaaay too late to start worrying about that. You've been killing without remorse all book, even when Jaheira was present. It's natural to feel different about killing people you actually know, but don't even try to start moralising now.

A few more fireballs hit the Ravager. The tree catches fire, but the demon is unhurt. Things are looking pretty bad for the defen-

...

... wait wait waaaaait hang on a second.

Is it just the Ravager attacking the city? There's no mention of drow or golems or anything like that. I assumed the fires were because of the attackers, but it seems to be strictly because the elven mages are using fireballs. That changes the context. One critter honestly shouldn't be this hard to deal with, if the elves weren't attacking it with the one element that is least likely to affect demons. Just put it in a Forcecage (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3e_SRD:Forcecage), you idiots. Or spam Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Otiluke%27s_Resilient_Sphere); the Ravager is going to fail its saving throw eventually. Or even just Blindness. (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Blindness) If you don't have any save-or-die spells prepared, at least start flinging Magic Missiles at the thing. That's always the best fallback option. Bah.

Speaking of spellcasters, Jaheira surprisingly continues to be a druid:

There was a roar, a flash of purple and black, and a tiger the likes of which Abdel had never imagined, much less seen, appeared in the glade in front of him. "You know what to do, my girls," Jaheira said, her voice as certain and steady as she could make it.
Abdel turned to look at her, and before he saw Jaheira he'd counted six of the huge cats. Standing in front of her were two more. From the mouths of these tigers grew fangs like scimitar blades.

The Animal Summoning (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Animal_Summoning_III) line of spells is a waste of time. The creatures it summons are too weak, and the spell slots too valuable. Eight tigers is definitely Animal Summing III, so this could have been an elemental (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Conjure_Fire_Elemental_(divine)) instead. Not a fan. Not a fan.

But I guess it's better than nothing - summons are how you take down superbosses. Trash critters are a fair choice if you're mostly trying to soak up actions. (https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/5zxpd7/5e_action_economy_summary/)

"I came here for ..." Yoshimo said to Abdel. "I did not come here for this. It is time for me to ... go."
The first tiger hit the Ravager hard and heavy, daggerlike claws tried to dig in, to hold, then tear. The monster reacted to the animal's weight with a sense of irritation rather than pain or fear. It took hold of the beast as if it was a mewling kitten and crushed its spine with a single twitch of its massive hand.

... okay, but you do need to actually do something to support them...? Lesser summons just buy you time. They can't actually win fights, you need elementals or devas for that.

One of the tigers manages to pierce the exoskeleton, drawing blood (which turns out to be green). The remaining mages focus everything they have on the Ravager, while our heroes bravely continue to watch.

There was a brilliant flash of blue-white light — a single bolt of powerful lighting — that ran parallel to the ground and was obviously the doing of a young elf, standing defiantly at the base of one of the mighty trees.
The Ravager shook off what little effect the lightning might have had on it and whirled to face the elf mage.
"That elf is going to die very soon," Yoshimo said grimly.

I guess the scene makes a certain degree of sense. We are currently at the part of the movie where Godzilla tanks a hit from a cruise missile or something, just to let the audience know that a conventional solution isn't going to work.

"Yoshimo," Abdel said, "we have to immobilize it."
"Immobilize?" the Kozakuran asked.
"Make it ..." Abdel fumbled. "Make it so the thing can't move. Make it fall down and not be able to get back—"
"I understand, now," Yoshimo interrupted, "thank you. So, we go for the legs?"

And, watching the devastation, our plucky hero notices a small, seemingly insignificant weakness that will allow him to save the day. It makes internal sense. Abdel is not normally the kind of person who would pick up on this, but there is some precedent for this. Abdel always know how to kill people. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21944354&postcount=63) This book would've been much better if that had been a consistent characterization, rather than something Athans forgot about for most of the plot, but I won't quibble.

"Abdel—" Jaheira, who had moved up behind them started. (...)
"Don't, Jaheira," he said. "It was you who started this. Before I met you I wouldn't have hesitated — not just now but lots of times before. Yoshimo would be dead now, so would Gaelan Bayle — but they live because of you, because you taught me to fight with my heart — my human heart — not my tainted blood. That thing is Imoen. I can't kill her. I killed Sarevok, but I can't kill her."

So close and yet so far.

See, I can tell what Athans is going for. This would be a perfectly valid character arc for Abdel, learning to be more than a hired thug. For that to work, though, we would've needed to see some actual character development from Abdel. At best, he's been more selective about whom he killed, and he's been more willing to use nonlethal force than before, but it's clear that he has absolutely no problem with violence.

Anyway, the two men nod at each other and charge.

Abdel got to the thing's leg and made to swipe at the already open wound. The broadsword bounced off the thing's armored skin less than half an inch from the wound. The Ravager took no notice of him.
Yoshimo circled around. The Kozakuran moved with barely a sound, and though it looked as if he wanted to let loose a battle cry of some kind, he held his tongue. The sword bit deeply into the Ravager's leg, benefiting from the Kozakuran's running momentum. (...) "Enchanted," Yoshimo called. "The blade, I mean."

This confirms that we are definitely using D&D rules behind the scenes. Abdel is one of the strongest men alive; if force mattered, he should stand a fair chance of piercing the armor. But that's not how it works. Nonmagical weapons simply fail to affect the Ravager. I'm not sure what Abdel expected to happen.

This is also why I complained so much about the elven spellcasters earlier. See, the monster can be hurt. It's not even that hard, you just need magic. The elves really should be able to deal with (http://cloverfield.wikia.com/wiki/HAMMERDOWN_Protocol) a single kaijū. It might've been a better idea to tie the Ravager's weak spot more explicitly to its Bhaalspawned nature. That way, it would make sense that Abdel is needed to defeat it.

Yoshimo dodges the first counter-attack but not the second.

The Ravager reversed the direction of its arm and swatted Yoshimo away. The enchanted sword came out of the thing's leg, releasing a second torrent of green blood, and Yoshimo was thrown several paces away and to the ground.
"Imoen!" Abdel screamed. "No!" The Ravager roared and tipped its head down to Yoshimo.
The Kozakuran, stunned, shook his head and tried to stand.
"Yoshimo!" Jaheira shouted, "get out of there!" as if the Kozakuran would want to do anything but.

Okay, so, first of all: Points for having a non-Abdel character be relevant. That's nice to see. Yoshimo hasn't really done anything since joining the party, so this is nice - even if it's strictly his sword that matters.

This is close to feeling right. I'd like to see Jaheira participate too, but I guess she got her moment with the Animal Summoning.

Yoshimo tries to stand up but doesn't quite pull it off. The Ravager smacks him again, then pins him to the ground. That's it for Yoshimo.

"Harasu (https://translate.google.com/#auto/en/Harasu)," Yoshimo said, his voice breaking, his right hand fumbling vainly in the dirt for the sword. "Harasu (http://www.tenrikyo.or.jp/en/newsletter/html/tt4/harasu.html), ..."
The Ravager slowly brought one hand down over Yoshimo, withdrew the horn, and ripped the Kozakuran to bloody shreds.

No loving description of biting his chest off? Okay then.

Abdel dives for the sword while the Ravager is distracted, grabbing the blade but also suffering an attack of opportunity.

The Ravager had pinned him to the ground the same way it had Yoshimo. Abdel could feel its hot breath and the smell of it gagged him. The pain of the wrist-sized horn jammed through bone and flesh set Abdel's head spinning in colored lights and brought him to the edge of unconsciousness.

The Ravager then stomps down, crushing Abdel's skull. He dies and dissolves into dust, as the Bhaalspawn are wont to, and that's the end of the novel. It's a little abrupt, but I think we can all agree that it's-

Hm?

Oh alright, alright.

Abdel flipped himself over onto his side, letting the horn rip through his already numbing flesh. (...) Abdel's whole body twitched, then tightened, and the deep wound in his side closed all at once and was gone. The yellow haze deepened over his vision, and all he saw clearly was the Ravager — his opponent had become the entire world.
The sellsword hacked the thing again, then again, and again. He didn't stop until the huge hellspawned beast fell to the ground with a tremor like an earthquake and a sound only Abdel couldn't hear.

Turns out we still hadn't seen the ceiling on Abdel's regeneration ability. Mending a broken back is a nice trick and all, but even near-lethal damage inflicted by a demigod heals in one round. Note that this is after we saw the Slayer tear Bodhi apart without any effort whatsoever.

You know that thing I keep saying? About how it's really hard to care when we know that, no matter how much Abdel gets injured, he can't actually ever lose? That applies here.

The chapter ends once the Ravager falls. The main threat has been dealt with, but there are still four chapters left. Suspicious ...

Last time, we opened up a path into Suldanessalar, which is under siege. Today, we'll see if we can break through the siege and get to Irenicus before it's too late.

https://s8.postimg.cc/ohl2bfb6d/SZYYSCJ.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/SZYYSCJ)

As Elhan explained last time, our first goal is to find High Priestess Demin. We are going to need some help to get out of this one, and she seems most likely to have a plan.

https://s8.postimg.cc/t3h6js4f9/gc_Jg_Q0_A.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/gcJgQ0A)

As expected, the city is full of monsters. The game is not kidding around with the encounters - it's all Adamanite Golems all the way.

https://s8.postimg.cc/sqpsdltv9/j8_Ls_Id_V.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/j8LsIdV)

That said, thanks to our detour through Watcher's Keep, we are hitting low-epic (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/High-level_class_ability) levels. A few golems won't trouble us.

https://s8.postimg.cc/e7inc78g5/b_Rz_LLc_T.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/bRzLLcT)

The ambient noise for this area is sounds of battle, and you can occasionally meet defenders, but they are badly outclassed. I think these are the remnants of the local militia. You can save some of them if you're quick, but I don't think it changes anything.

https://s8.postimg.cc/wzuifsck5/3_Uc_IXAc.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/3UcIXAc)

Demin's house is guarded by a drow and his demonic buddy. (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Nabassu) Raamilat is the real threat here. He's a high-level mage, and this fight is a good preview of how every encounter in Throne of Bhaal is going to work. He has a Contingency and a defensive Spell Trigger up, and - given the chance - will use fun spells like Time Stop into Gate / Meteor Swarm. You end up having to use a combination of True Seeing (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/True_Seeing) into Pierce Magic (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Pierce_Magic) into Breach (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Breach) before you can even start hurting him, and of course he can re-cast his protective spells. But, in the end, Minsc can handle this. (https://i.imgur.com/M8qy1KS.png)

https://s8.postimg.cc/h1lspnq1x/Bhuk0j9.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/Bhuk0j9)

Demin is being menaced by a group of Rakshasa, but they are frankly pretty pathetic. (At least compared to Raamilat.) We easily sword them to pieces.

https://s8.postimg.cc/8jcclbr91/9_Hoz_WQp.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/9HozWQp)

Demin seems more reasonable than Elhan, but I'm really tired of being kept on a need-to-know basis. Spill it, lady.

👖 DEMIN: Th-thank you for your assistance, strangers. Forgive me, also, if I reward your effort with questions. How do you come to be here?
👖 DEMIN: Our city is not usually found by outsiders, doubly so with the Exile employing his magics to hide us. It is beyond fortuitous if you stumbled here unknowing.
:roy: CHARNAME: I seek the one you call "the Exile". Irenicus has taken much from me.
👖 DEMIN: It is our folly if we think his terror would be isolated. I apologize if he pained you, for we are partially to blame for each act of evil he survives to commit.
👖 DEMIN: We will seek to make reparations when this matter is done, but the Exile is firmly in control at the moment. We are at his mercy.
:roy: CHARNAME: You will continue to be so if I don't start getting some answers. What caused this?
👖 DEMIN: I begin to feel it is a mistake to keep this amongst us exclusively. The consequences have been far reaching and have proven especially difficult to dispel.
:roy: CHARNAME: Elhan was particularly vexing, demanding help while also refusing information.
👖 DEMIN: I am not so concerned with the shame of our people over Irenicus and Bodhi. What good is our silence if the city is crushed because we would not seek help?
👖 DEMIN: As an elf, perhaps you will come to understand our hesitation in speaking of this. Hopefully it is a folly that will not be repeated again.
👖 DEMIN: The Exiles were not always as you know them now. They once had names that I would have been proud to speak, and were as worthy as any other of praise.
:roy: CHARNAME: Then they have fallen far from that lofty perch. I see no trace of worth in them now.
👖 DEMIN: Certainly you are entitled to your misgivings. You would not be here if you were not driven by powerful emotions, and the Exile is good at provoking a reaction.
👖 DEMIN: He has garnered the strongest of reactions from we, his own people, for he wronged us greater than any other. He is a criminal that knows no bounds.

Elves are terrible at getting to the point. Even the comparatively reasonable ones like Denim. There are some party reactions here, but it's from people like Korgan and Mazzy and Edwin.

Denim is about to spill it, so I hope you're comfortable and ready for an avalanche of exposition.

👖 DEMIN: Yes, he was elven as we are, but no longer. Queen Ellesime cast him out, for he had proven he was not elven at heart.
:roy: CHARNAME: That must have been some crime. What did he do?
👖 DEMIN: She and He were well known in the elven court of Suldanessellar. He, at least, was a great asset to our kind and kin.
👖 DEMIN: He was the greatest of our mages, as skilled as any of elven blood could be without divine assistance. He even had the favor of the Queen. It was not enough.
👖 DEMIN: Of the two, the 'sister' was the insatiable one. She was not as regarded, but she held great influence over her 'brother,' and pulled him into her madness.
:roy: CHARNAME: How lovely. It's nice that those butchers keep so close.
👖 DEMIN: Together they sought more than was possible; they wished the power of the gods, and they were not concerned about the consequences.
👖 DEMIN: He of the Exiles performed a dark ritual, and committed a grave offense against the greatest symbol of our longevity: the Tree of Life.
👖 DEMIN: He sought to merge his essence with the divine tree, draining it and stealing its energy. He failed, but there was a price to pay for the rest of us.
👖 DEMIN: He disrupted the elven connection to land and nature. There was a great shock that ran through Suldanessellar, and many of our weaker citizens lay near death.
👖 DEMIN: That he would endanger so many for he and his sister's selfish goals was one thing, but to threaten the very nature of what makes us who we are was unfathomable.
:roy: CHARNAME: Then why was he not killed outright? It would have saved a lot of trouble.
👖 DEMIN: It fell to Ellesime to judge the crime, and she was harsh. Having forsaken everything elven, they would be outcast so they might learn how precious our ways are.
👖 DEMIN: Of spiritually high regard, Ellesime petitioned the gods and a divine curse was placed upon the Exiles. All their connection to the elven spirit was severed.
👖 DEMIN: Ellesime thought it a punishment worse than death. A life no longer than a human's, and their elven spirits banished from the paradise all elvenkind are entitled to.
👖 DEMIN: The sister exposed herself to vampirism to try and counteract the divine curse, but gods are not routed so easily. The brother did not risk the same.
👖 DEMIN: A better man would have learned to appreciate what he had lost, perhaps learning humility and seek to make amends. He did not prove to be a 'better man.'
:roy: CHARNAME: Wow, what was your first clue, genius?
👖 DEMIN: We had hoped this would turn out better. The Exile has found a way to restore himself, has made pacts with our most despised enemies, and has resumed his original plot.

We've talked about this scheme in the thread, and I don't want to repeat that debate here, but... yeah, this was naive at best, reckless at worst. Expecting Irenicus to "learn humility" is a serious misjudgement of his character. Especially since you didn't actually take his powers away. You goddamn idiots.

Anyway, turns out we were basically collateral damage.

:roy: CHARNAME: And this is where I come in. He stole my divine soul through some sort of ritual.
👖 DEMIN: I have no way to accurately measure the cost of our decisions on you. Reparations will be made, if there is anyone left here to make them.
👖 DEMIN: I... I am still in shock that this happened. So much of Suldanessellar's defenses were away, battling the Drow and their incursion at the temple. We were left weak.
👖 DEMIN: One group of exiles helping another, both so full of their petty hatred and jealousy that they would stop at nothing to strike at our hearts.
👖 DEMIN: The Exile brought to the city magical constructs and demons, and a... a black dragon, which landed to the northwest. I have been trying to fight, but there are too many.
:roy: CHARNAME: I am to find Ellesime. After that, Irenicus is mine to deal with.
👖 DEMIN: The Exile has seeded the streets with his minions, and taken Ellesime into the palace. I have made an attempt to enter, but it is sealed tight.

This is looking pretty dire. Luckily, Denim has an action plan.

👖 DEMIN: Whether you search for the Queen or seek the Exile for reasons of your own, you will have to get into the palace and also deal with the monsters in the streets.
👖 DEMIN: And I believe there is a way to do both at the same time, though it will not be easy. No, we have seen to it that it will not be easy.
:eek: AERIE: Of course we'll help! I can feel the Tree of Life calling out in pain... and the pain of the elves is its pain as well! We must do what we can, <CHARNAME>!
:haley: IMOEN: Do... do we even have time for this? We're here to get <CHARNAME>'s soul back. Maybe if it wouldn't take too long. It's horrible to see this place suffer.
👖 DEMIN: I obviously do not have the strength, myself, to complete the task. I think perhaps you do. If I tell you what is to be done, will you do it?
:roy: CHARNAME: If there is no other way, then fine. Tell me what needs to be done.
👖 DEMIN: The temple is dedicated to Rillifane Rallathil (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Rillifane_Rallathil). He can summon the spirit defenders of the forest to protect us... and has the power to break the seal on the palace.
👖 DEMIN: But the Leaflord must be awakened, his avatar summoned, in order for the spirits to come. The Exile's creatures have desecrated the temple and stolen the artifacts I need.
👖 DEMIN: The artifacts are lost in the city, held by the Exile's minions, perhaps even the black dragon in the northwest. There are three: a talisman of Rillifane, a golden cup, and a moonblade.
👖 DEMIN: Go into the temple, which will most likely be guarded, and place the items on the statue in the center. This will summon the avatar to our defense.
:roy: CHARNAME: This had better be worth the trouble.
👖 DEMIN: I believe so, stranger. I cannot be sure, but only Rillifane has the power. Go, please... the longer you wait the more elves will suffer. Quickly!

Journal entry:
Getting Inside the Palace in Suldanessellar

High Priestess Demin informed me that Irenicus holds Queen Ellesime inside the palace, and that he has sealed the gates with his magic. The only way to get inside is to deal with the creatures ravaging the city. This is according to her, of course... there may be another way in, but she is determined to save her people.

Demin's plan is to summon the avatar of the elven god Rillifane. He will awaken the forest spirit guardians to save the elves, and he has the power to break the seal on the palace.

Irenicus' creatures stole three relics from Rillifane's temple and I must return them. It was a cup, a talisman and a moonblade. The more powerful monsters will have them, including, Demin suspects, Irenicus' black dragon in the northwest. Once I gather the items I must enter Rillifane's temple and place the relics on his statue... that should summon the avatar. I must move quickly before Irenicus completes whatever plan he has set in motion here.

So, yeah, we've gotten to the point where the most realistic plan is hoping for divine intervention.

I quite like this setup - you have three artifacts you need to retrieve, but you can tackle them in any order.

https://s8.postimg.cc/n2jhmqs3p/2_Vjia5_M.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/2Vjia5M)

The map is pre-explored, so you can plan your approach as you like. We'll go for the moonblade first.

https://s8.postimg.cc/6rjdqfnbp/Gvv1857.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/Gvv1857)

A short cutscene plays when you enter the building. A demon is menacing this warrior. The elf asks Rillifane for death and victory, which he grants. We take the moonblade off his corpse.

https://s8.postimg.cc/jixjwy4th/cp_X0_RQm.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/cpX0RQm)

The talisman is hidden in kind of a puzzle box. You can find the solution elsewhere in the city, but it's honestly not that difficult to figure out. You are kicked out of the dialogue box and suffer minor damage when you press the wrong rune, so there are only fifteen possible combinations. Plus, it's a creation myth - you know how those go. We retrieve the talisman.

https://s8.postimg.cc/y24oyd5o5/Sk5_Jesj.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/Sk5Jesj)

This leaves just the cup and thus the dragon. ... "just" the dragon. Heh. I, ah. Yeah. Sure. We can probably do this, right?

The dragon in question resides on his own map. I think every dragon in SoA works like that - they are always in a little arena of sorts.

https://s8.postimg.cc/98v4xpudh/2_Db_JHFr.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/2DbJHFr)

Niyzdramamine Nidzydrainman Nicole is appropriately massive and scary. Fortunately, there is a time-tested standard strategy for talking to dragons.

🐲 NICOLE: Food! Irenicus has sent lunch at last. It is well. I grow tired of this, treasure or no. Nizidramanii'yt is no pathetic soldier to guard duty over a tarnished cup.
:roy: CHARNAME: I am <GABBER> and I have no quarrel with you, culinary or otherwise. I just need the Goblet of Life.
🐲 NICOLE: Idiot! Food does not make demands of Nizidramanii'yt! The task is beneath my dignity, but I will not be derelict in protecting the Goblet. The reward is too great!
:roy: CHARNAME: Why do you do the bidding of this wizard? Surely a great and *powerful* dragon could not be subservient to a mere elf?
🐲 NICOLE: How dare you! Nizidramanii'yt is no slave! The wizard offers much treasure for easy work. I should kill you slowly, but you are not worth it. You are food! Cattle!
:roy: CHARNAME: I meant no offense; you are no servant! How dare Irenicus think that you will do his bidding like some mewling lackey!
🐲 NICOLE: Hmm, that would be the gist of it. But before you judge me subservient, understand that the wizard offers a great deal of treasure for such a simple task.
:roy: CHARNAME: What if I were to offer you more to give me the Goblet?
🐲 NICOLE: Who am I to be purchased like a painted whore? If you have gold give it to me. Hah! Then you may grovel at my feet in thanks that I have allowed you to live.
:roy: CHARNAME: I am not so easy to kill as that. Attack if you wish. You will be surprised.
🐲 NICOLE: Excellent! I do so enjoy it when they struggle!

You can actually bribe the black dragon into leaving peacefully, if you are careful about it.

:roy: CHARNAME: Whatever Irenicus is paying you, I will pay more!
🐲 NICOLE: Hmm, the idea has merit. I smell your magic items and hear your gold. The Goblet is all the treasure that I have. Give me everything that you have and I will do likewise.
:roy: CHARNAME: You want everything that I own in exchange for the Goblet?
🐲 NICOLE: I *did* promise to protect the Goblet. Irenicus is offering me a great fortune. You can do no less if your truly wish to have the Goblet.
:roy: CHARNAME: Very well. Take everything and give me the Goblet.
🐲 NICOLE: Excellent. Take the useless cup and be happy that I allow you to live.

Ol' Knickers actually keeps his end of the deal, which is unusual for a dragon. You lose all your gold and all your non-plot-relevant items, and receive a plot coupon in exchange. This is obviously a terrible idea... unless you just dropped all your magic stuff on the ground before talking to Nicole. That way you'll just lose your gold, which no longer has a use anyway.

Ahh, okay. That, ah, could have gone better. Nibbles is a fool to assume that Irenicus actually plans to pay up, but maybe this is a relatively young dragon? BLACDRAG.CRE claims 21 WIS, but that seems unlikely.

https://s8.postimg.cc/gc30dc7it/v5ib_Qcu.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/v5ibQcu)

As befits a D&D game, dragons basically function as superbosses. All the dragon fights in SoA are technically optional, so when you do decide to fight one, you're in for quite a struggle. (http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/Walkthrough/suldan.php#woods001) Nicole has access to crowd control abilities, can cast a few spells, can knock your party around with Wing Buffet, physical damage resistance, magic resistance... all of this on top of a strong phsyical attack and a ton of HP.

Fortunately, we're pretty over-levelled, so we can get away with treating this like a damage race.

https://s8.postimg.cc/h1lsppfs5/mkw6i56.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/mkw6i56)

Phew. I hope we won't have to fight any more dragons. We take the Goblet of Life from Nicky's corpse and hurry back to the temple. No dragon scales for us to loot, sadly.

https://s8.postimg.cc/tszyw7x9x/HUgr_Egi.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/HUgrEgi)

The militia is getting routed, so we need to hurry. Irenicus' forces seem to be specifically targetting civilians, which is all kinds of not okay.

https://s8.postimg.cc/dur963arp/F0_Zf_Hi_Z.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/F0ZfHiZ)

The altar is also guarded, but it's nothing we haven't seen before. Imoen has access to Spell Trigger, so she gets in some fifteen Magic Missiles before the mage's Contingency triggers. This is a very short battle.

We toss the items on the altar and call forth the Avatar of Rillifane.

https://s8.postimg.cc/csh2njzo5/rg_W1_WOS.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/rgW1WOS)

Rillifane presents himself as a blurry Shambling Mound for some reason.

🍁 SUAVATAR: ** THE AVATAR OF THE GREAT OAK STANDS BEFORE YOU, MORTALS. WHAT TRANSPIRES HERE THAT REQUIRES THE ATTENTION OF THE LEAFLORD? **
:roy: CHARNAME: The sorcerer, Jon Irenicus, has --
🍁 SUAVATAR: ** AH... THE EXILE HAS RETURNED. **
🍁 SUAVATAR: ** HE WHO ONCE WAS OF THE ELVES BUT IS NO LONGER SURVIVES YET. ONCE AGAIN HE COMMITS HIS SACRILEGE AGAINST THE TREE OF LIFE. **
🍁 SUAVATAR: ** THE EXILE PROTECTS HIMSELF WITH POWER THAT CORRUPTS NATURE. I CANNOT TOUCH HIM. **
🍁 SUAVATAR: ** HE HOLDS SHE WHO IS OF MY BLOOD IMPRISONED WITHIN CORRUPTION. HE USES HER LINK TO THE TREE OF LIFE TO DRAIN ITS POWER. **
:roy: CHARNAME: Why? What's he going to --
🍁 SUAVATAR: ** THE EXILE SEEKS TO JOIN THE SELDARINE. THE EXILE SEEKS TO BECOME A GOD, AS HE SOUGHT ONCE BEFORE. **
:eek: AERIE: He... he seeks to actually join the Seldarine? The elven circle of the divine? But... Corellan Latharian would never allow it! He *is* mad!!
:amused: VICONIA: So he seeks to actually join the Seldarine... to become an elven god in fact. The man is insanely ambitious, striving towards the impossible.
:miko: JAHEIRA: The Seldarine? The collection of elven gods led by Corellan Latharian? How would he ever propose to do join such ranks? Mad! Mad!
🍁 SUAVATAR: ** THE FIRST OF THE SELDARINE WOULD NEVER PERMIT IT. THE TREE OF LIFE MUST NOT PERISH, OR OUR CHILDREN WILL SUFFER. **
🍁 SUAVATAR: ** THE SPIRITS OF THIS WOOD WILL BE CALLED TO DEFEAT THE EVIL THAT THE EXILE HAS BROUGHT INTO OUR MIDST. **
🍁 SUAVATAR: ** RISE, SPIRITS... IT IS I, RILLIFANE RALLATHIL OF THE SELDARINE WHO CALLS YOU. DEFEND OUR CHILDREN THIS DAY. **
🍁 SUAVATAR: ** AND YOU, MORTAL... **
🍁 SUAVATAR: ** YOU SEEK TO DEFEAT THE EXILE. FREE SHE WHO IS OF MY BLOOD FROM HIS CORRUPTION, AND SHE WILL SEVER THE LINK HE USES. **
:roy: CHARNAME: But Irenicus has sealed --
🍁 SUAVATAR: ** THE EXILE BLOCKS YOUR WAY, SEALING THE GATES TO THE GREAT PALACE. I SHALL UNSEAL THEM. ... IT IS DONE. **
🍁 SUAVATAR: ** I CAN DO NO MORE. **

Journal entry:
Getting Inside the Palace in Suldanessellar

I summoned the avatar of the elven god Rillifane Rallathil in order to get past Irenicus' seal on the palace gates. The avatar awakened the guardian spirits of the forest, which attacked the invading monsters throughout the city. It then told me that Irenicus' plan is to take the power of the Tree of Life for himself... both for power and revenge. Queen Ellesime is Rillifane's daughter and may be the only one who can stop the mage.
Rillifane broke the seal on the palace gates... my way within is now clear.

Befitting his power, SUAVATAR also has ** NO INSIDE VOICE **. I enjoy this convention. It's safe to assume the voice is deep and booming and smells like a wet forest.

https://s8.postimg.cc/p73unvyw5/y_TOG64_Y.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/yTOG64Y)

Rillifane puts down the remaining troops and un-seals the palace. We are ready to strike at Irenicus...

... next time.

There's kind of a lot going on here, but I'm sure you are sick and tired of hearing my complaints about Abdel. The liberation of Suldanessalar also needs to be discussed, but we can do that in a future update. While this chapter is essentially just a long, drawn-out fight scene, I... actually kind of like it. It's relatively exciting, as far as those things go, and all the party members get to participate. It's pretty gokay.

For now, there's another thing I want to discuss: Yoshimo's character arc. Treason and atonement are some of the most fundamental themes in stories, and the arcs of Book!Yoshimo and Game!Yoshimo contrast in interesting ways. Book!Yoshimo has died, so now's a good time for that.

I am going to divide the basic "traitor narrative" into three chunks. First, you have the honeymoon period, where the traitor works with the hero. (Judas Iscariot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_Iscariot#Historicity) is one of the twelve disciples.) The narrative turns on the moment of the actual betrayal; either when it is executed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_Iscariot#Betrayal_of_Jesus) or when it is refused (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BecomingTheMask). Finally, you have the aftermath, where the traitor faces the consequences of his deeds. Let's look at these in turn. We'll assume you did take Yoshimo along - if you didn't, his personal plot just doesn't happen.

Game!Yoshimo and Book!Yoshimo start out as false allies. Both Yoshimos were employed by Irenicus before the game started, and both were tasked with making sure the scheme doesn't go off the rails. (The details are a bit fuzzy, since the prison break wasn't planned to happen, but we can assume that Yoshimo was part of a contingency plan. There probably as a lot of improvisation.)

In the game, the length of the "honeymoon period" depends on your personal playstyle. It's possible to keep Yoshimo around for all of Chapter II and Chapter III, which can mean several weeks of playtime. If you do this, he becomes a regular party member with a distinctive skillset, and you get to know him a bit through the usual business of banter and sidequests.
There's a lot of emergent storytelling at work here - characterization through gameplay mechanics. Yoshimo is written to seem untrustworthy, but mechanically, he's just as reliable as every other party member. If you keep Yoshimo in your party, you'll hear his selection quotes a billion times and you'll likely have a few fun stories involving his snare-setting abilities. These moments are unscripted, but that doesn't make them less valuable. By the time you reach Spellhold, he'll feel familiar.
This is entirely absent in the book. I have to emphasize this: There's absolutely nothing like this. The reader does not get to know Yoshimo. He's around for the big prison break scene in Chapter Two and Chapter Three, which would be an excellent setup. He could give Abdel the "allies do not come cheap in the city of coin" speech, but that kinda... doesn't happen? The story is set up, but there's no payoff. Yoshimo doesn't return to the party until Chapter Sixteen, and the betrayal happens soon after. There just hasn't been enough setup. See, in order for a betrayal to have an impact, you have to have known and trusted the traitor beforehand.

The (respective) revelations of treachery happens at different points. In the game, it happens in Spellhold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?544430-Let-s-Read-amp-Play-Baldurs-Gate-II-Bhaal-is-Dead!&p=22830763&viewfull=1#post22830763). You are finally ready to confront Irenicus and rescue Imoen, and the game pulls out the rug from under your feet. Yoshimo has turned traitor, and poisoned your food. You don't even get to fight back. Your soul is extracted, and... well, the second half of the game happens. All of that is partially Yoshimo's fault. (And also potentially Saemon Havarian's fault.) The bounty hunter refuses to explain his motives even if you press him.
In the book, the big betrayal moment happens in Chapter Seventeen. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?544430-Let-s-Read-amp-Play-Baldurs-Gate-II-Bhaal-is-Dead!&p=22994560#post22994560) Yoshimo gives Team Abdel some inaccurate bits of information about a gate, and they were going to fall for it, but Imoen showed up in time and blew up the gate. It's... rather more muted than in the game. This is partially because the betrayal isn't shocking (we had it spoiled (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?544430-Let-s-Read-amp-Play-Baldurs-Gate-II-Bhaal-is-Dead!&p=22943457#post22943457)), partially because there's no time for the betrayal to sink in, and partially there aren't any real consequences to Yoshimo's betrayal.

Speaking of consequences: How does Yoshimo's betrayal shake out? In the game, Yoshimo eventually explains that he has been magically compelled (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?544430-Let-s-Read-amp-Play-Baldurs-Gate-II-Bhaal-is-Dead!&p=22907472&viewfull=1#post22907472) to carry out the plan. He begs you to take his heart to a temple of Ilmater, to ask the god to intercede on his behalf. (For what it's worth, you can kick him out of the party and he won't show up in Spellhold. When you get back to Athkatla and meet him in the Copper Coronet, he'll graphically die before your eyes due to Geas backlash.)
Game!Yoshimo's story is a lot darker and a lot less straightforward than Book!Yoshimo's story. He dies as a traitor, with his last act being suicide-by-CHARNAME. You can take his heart to the temple of Lathander, if you want. This might allow him to find peace in death - without this act, he'd probably end up with a one-way ticket to Carceri. ("The Crying God will determine what torment is deserved or not. If there is suffering undeserved, this Yoshimo will see relief in his eternal rest.") He is ultimately denied redemption, but he may find forgiveness.
Book!Yoshimo gets away a lot cleaner than that. His end fits into a cleaner "traitor redeemed" story. He could've probably slipped away from the party, had he wanted to - but he didn't, and so he dies to the Ravager. If you squint a bit, he was facing the consequences of his ill deeds (i. e. working with Irenicus.) I mean, sure, he didn't manage to fix his mistake and died, but the Celestials definitely award points for trying.

This is one of the most baffling things about this novel. Events from the game are repeated, but with circumstances changed so that their impact is muted. It makes me wonder if Athans really understood what the writing was trying to accomplish.

We are approaching the finale, and we finally learn what Irenicus was actually planning to do (and how.) Just like Sarevok, he is trying to become a god. He doesn't want to merely achieve godlike power, his goal is to actually ascend and join the pantheon. I... have no idea what the mechanics of this would be. Irenicus was one of the most powerful mortals around - he was no Elminster, but he was probably somewhere in his weight class. Jon has since gained demigod status on top of that. Draining the tree might elevate him to minor deity status, but I guess Corellon (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Corellon) would be allowed to intervene at that point? I'm not sure. He's a greater deity whose portfolio includes High Magic, he should be able to put Irenicus down.

We've had this discussion about Sarevok, so I figure we should discuss Johnny's plan as well. So here's our suggested AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION topic: Do you think this scheme had any chance of actually working, or was Irenicus doomed from the start?

Keltest

2018-06-02, 08:51 AM

Irenicus was pretty thoroughly hosed. There are a lot of gods in the Forgotten Realms who make a game of trying to pick on the Seldarine, like Grummsh (god of Orcs) or Malar the Beastlord and, plot twist, they mostly fail in horrible and embarrassing ways. But what happened to Araushnee is probably the biggest indicator that you don't mess with the Seldarine. She was originally a member, but she betrayed Corellan so the Seldarine stripped her of her divinity and banished her to become a demon, where she took the name Lolth. Surprisingly, she never really got over that.

The point being, picking fights with the Seldarine is a terrible idea. They always win, they win hard, and they can get personal.

Kish

2018-06-02, 10:13 AM

The altar is also guarded, but it's nothing we haven't seen before. Imoen has access to Spell Trigger, so she gets in some fifteen Magic Missiles before the mage's Contingency triggers. This is a very short battle.

We toss the items on the altar and call forth the Avatar of Rillifane.
Note that you can also just run by the guards around the altar and put the items to summon the Avatar of Rilifane on it while they're alive. When Rilifane says "NO MORE SHALL THE TEMPLE BE DEFILED" he automatically kills any enemies left in the temple.

Epic magic is a 3ed concept. In 2ed, there was no such thing as magic more powerful than ninth-level; I remember an essay in one of the books on "Why There Will Never Be And Shouldn't Be Spells More Powerful Than Wish."

Baldur's Gate in general throws out much of the Realms-specific cosmology mechanics; Valygar is able to be a divine spellcaster without a patron god like he was in Oerth or something. The Wall of the Faithless? Karsus? What are those? That the tenth-level spells wouldn't have been legal in a game that cared about Forgotten Realms cosmological background doesn't matter here.

Keltest

2018-06-02, 10:36 AM

Note that you can also just run by the guards around the altar and put the items to summon the Avatar of Rilifane on it while they're alive. When Rilifane says "NO MORE SHALL THE TEMPLE BE DEFILED" he automatically kills any enemies left in the temple.

Epic magic is a 3ed concept. In 2ed, there was no such thing as magic more powerful than ninth-level; I remember an essay in one of the books on "Why There Will Never Be And Shouldn't Be Spells More Powerful Than Wish."

Baldur's Gate in general throws out much of the Realms-specific cosmology mechanics; Valygar is able to be a divine spellcaster without a patron god like he was in Oerth or something. The Wall of the Faithless? Karsus? What are those? That the tenth-level spells wouldn't have been legal in a game that cared about Forgotten Realms cosmological background doesn't matter here.

Valygar is a ranger, and thus I don't believe he needs specific deific patronage to cast spells, being able to draw on the power of "nature" in a general sense, like some druids.

Also, does he specifically scorn the patronage of deities? I don't usually travel with him because Minsc is just the cooler ranger.

Mordokai

2018-06-02, 03:44 PM

Valygar is a ranger, and thus I don't believe he needs specific deific patronage to cast spells, being able to draw on the power of "nature" in a general sense, like some druids.

Also, does he specifically scorn the patronage of deities? I don't usually travel with him because Minsc is just the cooler ranger.

My memory is a little vague, but I think "scorn" isn't quite the term I would use. He has some chosen words to say about deities in general, but I don't think he scorns them, per se.

Of course, I may be mixing him with Roy at this point, so lets wait for somebody more knowledgeable to tell us more.

Spore

2018-06-02, 05:00 PM

hamishspence

2018-06-03, 02:21 AM

The 3.0 Deities & Demigods book makes a distinction between "simply not having a patron" and "actively opposing the worship of the gods" - it's the latter that gets you The Wall.

Khay

2018-06-03, 07:23 AM

My memory is a little vague, but I think "scorn" isn't quite the term I would use. He has some chosen words to say about deities in general, but I don't think he scorns them, per se.

Of course, I may be mixing him with Roy at this point, so lets wait for somebody more knowledgeable to tell us more.

I'm not too knowledgeable, but I do have access to a script dump. Looking through Valygar's dialogue, there's not much about the gods in there. At the very end of ToB, he gets a line about he's always thought it prudent to not attract too much divine attention, maybe you were thinking of that? He is pretty scornful towards mages, though.

Kish

2018-06-03, 08:55 AM

Mordokai

2018-06-03, 02:49 PM

I'm not too knowledgeable, but I do have access to a script dump. Looking through Valygar's dialogue, there's not much about the gods in there. At the very end of ToB, he gets a line about he's always thought it prudent to not attract too much divine attention, maybe you were thinking of that? He is pretty scornful towards mages, though.

Now that you mention it, I may have confused mages with gods... or vice versa. In any case, I remember he's pretty opinionated about both of them. But it's been such a long time since I've played the game(let alone with Valygar in tow) that, for the life of me, I can't remember it properly.

But be it as it may, thank you for remindering me. Of the awesome game that BG2 is and for doing the hard work, exposing yourself to Athan's horrible work of "art", so we don't have to.

You truly are a champion :smallsmile:

Spore

2018-06-03, 04:34 PM

You truly are a champion :smallsmile:

Champion of Deneir or Ilmater in that case? :smallamused:

Rusty Spoon

2018-06-04, 03:16 AM

As a lurker in this Let's Read since it started, I just want to say how fantastic it has been to follow. I've heard a lot about how bad the books are and... yeah. Understatement.

We've had this discussion about Sarevok, so I figure we should discuss Johnny's plan as well. So here's our suggested AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION topic: Do you think this scheme had any chance of actually working, or was Irenicus doomed from the start?

The question that finally sucked me in to respond!
In my admittedly not very high opinion of FR fiction, it'd probably go something like: Bhaalspawn soul lets him dodge Corellon's authority, become a new god of murder-magic, probably kill Mystra at some point, something something Drizzt or Elminster, something something was actually part of another god's plans all along and gets done away with in a sidebar of a 3rd edition splat-book.

Spore

2018-06-04, 04:32 AM

We've had this discussion about Sarevok, so I figure we should discuss Johnny's plan as well. So here's our suggested AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION topic: Do you think this scheme had any chance of actually working, or was Irenicus doomed from the start?

Ohhh, I actually overlooked this one. As for Book!Irenicus. Hell no. The little semblance of a plan this has is getting ruined by logistics (which elven mythal are we attacking now?), everything else is getting Abdel-ex-Machina'd (Deus-Ex-Abdel?) away.

As for Game Irenicus: I am not as well versed in Forgotten Realms mythology but the following seems about right:

The point being, picking fights with the Seldarine is a terrible idea. They always win, they win hard, and they can get personal.

Not necessarily because they are the Seldarine. But because its a group of major deities supporting each other. And picking power from deities is generally not as easy. He should have gone after Bhaal spawn essense instead of Suldanessalar AND Bhaal spawn essence.

Granted, that would have thrown him into the ball game where ultimatively Amelyssan would have stopped him because he basically had what he wanted from the MC anyway. (In theory maybe Amelyssan only got so strong in the final fight because she starts absorbing the essence, so before that Irenicus maybe could have duelled her and won?

mangosta71

2018-06-04, 08:47 AM

Now that you mention it, I may have confused mages with gods...

To be fair, this is a perfectly reasonable mistake to make. Prior to 4th edition, mages basically WERE gods.

Calemyr

2018-06-04, 01:52 PM

Not necessarily because they are the Seldarine. But because its a group of major deities supporting each other. And picking power from deities is generally not as easy. He should have gone after Bhaal spawn essense instead of Suldanessalar AND Bhaal spawn essence.

I don't think Jon wanted the baggage that comes with Bhaal's power. A divine spark to seal the gap in his soul, yes, but, in the game as well as the book, Bhaal's essence is a tool rather than a goal - either as a stop-gap or a siege weapon. Pretty soon we'll see how that tactic bites him in the buttcape in the game, seeing as Abdel had Lojack installed on his soul. That said, Bhaal's essence wouldn't have been a particularly viable path. It's too spread out. The only paths that are viable (and even they are questionable to some degree) are nurturing a spark of divine essence into a roaring fire by pursuing its portfolio (Such as with Sarevok) or knowing where the essence will pool and letting the Bhaalspawn kill each other while you wait to collect it downstream (the ToB villain's tactic). Irenicus couldn't really do either, as he had the spark but not the blood. (Note that Charname only grows more in tune with Bhaal after their soul is removed, meaning a lot of Bhaal's essence was left behind.) Besides which... he was an elf, dammit! He was going to be an elven god, not some human murder-deity!

Honestly, I think the credibility of Irenicus's plan is far better than Sarevok's, but not as good as the ToB villain's. I mean... they all seem credible, and even Sarevok is demonstrated to be an extremely intelligent and cunning man for all his brute strength. I don't imagine Sarevok would go to that much effort without vetting his information first. The ToB boss has the best claim, on the other hand, because it's effectively the same one Charname can use - drawing divinity from the source rather than a tributary - and it works for Charname. The other two methods are ultimately unverified.

I assume you're not doing Siege of Dragonspear or Throne of Bhaal, Khay? Neither of them really get much love, sadly, and it'd be interesting to see a full examination of one or both of them.

Spore

2018-06-05, 04:00 AM

I think then, a ploy to get Ellisime to leave her mythal area and get her soul sacrificed to demons/devils/whatever or stored for bargaining (not sure if trap the soul exists in AD&D). This way, simultaneously the mythal looses its best priestess and Irenicus gets a bargaining chip for dealing with fiends.

russdm

2018-06-05, 05:34 PM

...and gets done away with in a sidebar of a 3rd edition splat-book.

Isn't that how it always worked?

Spore

2018-06-06, 02:49 AM

Concerning sidebars in RPG source books. It always felt odd when rules-books mixed fluff with rules. Why it is the modus operandi I do not know. Yes, it is probably important to know which spell defines what ingame. But I was always of the opinion that if rules prop up the narrative instead of the other way around, the game suffers as a consequence.

But it is WEIRD when you consider D&D and Faerun where they basically change up the cosmology every 5 years or so. Because even gods need a bit of framework for the sake of consistency and versillimitude or however this monster of a word is spelled.

Other (https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/29699/does-irenicus-have-low-wisdom-spoilers-for-bg2) forums (https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/258273-baldurs-gate-ii-shadows-of-amn/60677002) seem to note that Charname's rise through the levels is something Irenicus did not foresee and that his two worst enemies are the plot and as jackjack put it: "Power Word: Reload"

1) The rise in power: Equipment and artifacts are one thing, but rising from known hero to almost epic spellcaster/warrior/high priest/thieves' guild leader in the matter of 2-3 months is something not even the biggest FR heroes managed to do. Sure, you can manage the end fights with level around 14+. But even if you dabble a bit in off quests you are much much more powerful. And the effects extends to your companions, too so it cant just be some weird Bhaalspawn power.

2) Plot and Reloading: Yes, if not for reloading, many of the save or die effects would have stopped Charname's journey long ago. Death is a normal occurence in high-level D&D that can only be avoided by virtue of DM fiat (or in case of Drizz't fighting almost exclusively mooks). And with a main character that crumbles to dust once his heart stops. So yes, it is plausible for Irenicus to assume you'd die during your travels. Because you did. Several times. But it just didn't count.

I know the intelligent-lazy approach to that would be to include a fail-safe should Charname pull through. Intelligent-wise approach would be eliminating a factor from this equation. But if knew how deific essence works, maybe it was his intention to delay your death. Because if the essence pools and some Bhaalspawn can access it, they might be able to dispute his claim for godhood. A small fry like 8th level Charname is doing nothing more than holding a bit of essence back by stubbornly surviving. Another idea would be that maybe Irenicus cannot use Charname's soul because it too would be pulled into Hell once you die.

Calemyr

2018-06-06, 10:06 AM

"Power Word: Reload"

That reminds me of one of my favorite scenes in Throne of Bhaal. In order to get a key item from a dungeon, you end up recruiting a party of level 1 neophytes to do the job for you. They pull the job off, but gain a level or two in the process and thus are cocky when they show up to turn the quest in. Deciding that they can probably take you at their new heights of power, they attack you instead of giving you the item. You promptly go into Slayer mode and butcher them...

They then reload the game, politely hand over the item, as well as some other things they found in there, and quickly walk away.

That scene had me splitting a gut back in the day. You don't see the save mechanic referenced in most games. I can only really think of Undertale and Final Fantasy 13 for games that made it a true plot point.

The Glyphstone

2018-06-06, 10:12 AM

That reminds me of one of my favorite scenes in Throne of Bhaal. In order to get a key item from a dungeon, you end up recruiting a party of level 1 neophytes to do the job for you. They pull the job off, but gain a level or two in the process and thus are cocky when they show up to turn the quest in. Deciding that they can probably take you at their new heights of power, they attack you instead of giving you the item. You promptly go into Slayer mode and butcher them...

They then reload the game, politely hand over the item, as well as some other things they found in there, and quickly walk away.

That scene had me splitting a gut back in the day. You don't see the save mechanic referenced in most games. I can only really think of Undertale and Final Fantasy 13 for games that made it a true plot point.

What quest is that? I don't remember it.

Calemyr

2018-06-06, 10:23 AM

What quest is that? I don't remember it.

The dungeon for the dragon bhaalspawn. Abazigal. It's an optional solution offered by an NPC. Abazigal's got a green dragon geased into protecting his lair. You can either kill it or get a scroll of reversal from an NPC, who requires a beholder eyestock in trade. Of course, a beholder isn't much of a threat at this point (although the dungeon is much more dangerous if you go yourself), so you could just send these petrified rookies over here instead. And so the comedy begins.

The scene is also known for giving you the Bronze Pantalettes (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Bronze_Pantalettes), the last ingredient for the Big Metal Unit - and that's its own category of comedy. The wordplay in the item descriptions just never quits. Stealing from the Wikia once again:

General description: (Combined Pantaloons)

“Long has the world marveled at the Golden Pantaloons, the Silver Pantaloons, and to a lesser extent, the Bronze Pantalettes. Revealed here for the first time are the secrets of their gregariously girding gussets that so softly shield your shanks. Ye gods! Get to identifyin' already! Now it can be told!”

Identified description:
“Found within a long-forgotten pocket of our collected pantology, herein tales the lie of the Metal "Unit."

Gargantua was self-proclaimed lord of his immeasurable lower regions until his son, Pantagruel, questioned the accuracy of the ruler. With his shortcomings exposed, great Gargantua lay prostrate upon the ground while Pantagruel sought to cover his cuirass in case his now governing body lost its sway. He was warned that the people would cut him no slacks, but he never listened, and had burned his britches behind him. Undaunted, he fulfilled his animus with the robes of his father, as uncomfortable as that might sound, and shaped the Metal "Unit" with his own hands.

The rule of Pantagruel was a discommoding morass, his armor eventually suffering a breach in the breech that proved his undoing. As his basket left the pantry, so to speak, his regime fell to insurrection, and so complete was the sacking that not even his Metal "Unit" could be found. The component pieces, a pantaloon triumvirate, were lost in the annals of time.

You now bear the awesome responsibility of the Metal "Unit." Gussets of wind, seams like reality, pockets of resistance, the seat of power, and legs as flared as your temper. Polish it well; the onus is now on you.”

One of these days, I'm going to need to run a game with Mazzy in ToB, just to let her use the Big Metal Unit and pilot it like a Gundam. "It's a Gundam!" "No, worse! It's a seven foot tall halfling!"

Khay

2018-06-09, 06:10 AM

Hi guys! Sorry for being relatively inactive during the week, I suddenly have a lot on my plate again. Thankfully, I'm well ahead of my deadline for the actual updates.

Check his conversations with Keldorn.

Oh, there it is! Sorry, I missed that one. Turns out I was wrong - Valygar does have a few issues with the gods. I know that non-theistic clerics exist, as long as you serve a "cause" of some kind. Maybe there's a similar loophole for rangers?

:annoyed: KELDORN: I must say, Valygar, that I have watched you fight and have found you to be a most extraordinary warrior. How is it that you have not pursued something more important with your life?
:confused: VALYGAR: More important? What do you mean?
:annoyed: KELDORN: More important...such as joining one of the Royal Orders. Or perhaps earning a career in the military. Serving your lord or your god, as it were.
:confused: VALYGAR: I was in the army, once, as a scout. It wasn't for me.
:annoyed: KELDORN: What about serving your god, then?
:confused: VALYGAR: But I have no god, paladin. Whom would I serve?
:annoyed: KELDORN: You have no god?! Do you speak truly? How could one live such a life devoid of faith?
:confused: VALYGAR: I live it according to my heart. I defend the natural against the unnatural, and that is important enough for me.
:annoyed: KELDORN: Well spoken, Valygar. You're a good man, if godless. I meant no offense.
:confused: VALYGAR: None taken, Keldorn. Were that all people were of as true of purpose as yourself.

As a lurker in this Let's Read since it started, I just want to say how fantastic it has been to follow. I've heard a lot about how bad the books are and... yeah. Understatement.

But be it as it may, thank you for remindering me. Of the awesome game that BG2 is and for doing the hard work, exposing yourself to Athan's horrible work of "art", so we don't have to.

You truly are a champion :smallsmile:

Thank you kindly, both of you! :smallbiggrin: This has been... a lot more work than I anticipated, but I'm glad you like it. The thread has been a lot of fun, at least. (I'm generally reading along, even if I don't reply a whole lot.)

I assume you're not doing Siege of Dragonspear or Throne of Bhaal, Khay? Neither of them really get much love, sadly, and it'd be interesting to see a full examination of one or both of them.

I'll talk about this in the final update, because I'm not actually sure yet. It's fun, but I have relatively limited free time these days. ToB is shorter, as a game, but the book is just as long as the other ones. I haven't actually played SoD, which I should probably do, but I don't think there's a novel? We'll see.

The invasion has been stopped, more or less, but the real problem was always Irenicus. In Chapter Twenty-Four, it's finally time to deal with the mage.

... sort of. You'll see.

Abdel managed to kill the Ravager, but he isn't feeling so great.

Quiet.
Not silence, there were sounds: the sound of running feet, burning wood, crying children, voices calling out, asking in Elvish if everyone is all right, if anyone has seen my husband, if anyone knows what happened to my family...
Abdel heard all of it, but as one muffled, wavelike hum. He could feel blood trickling out of his ears.

This one starts out well, but I'm not sure if the author quite sticks the landing. I get the impression he's trying to convey, but I don't think Abdel should be able to tell what the elves are shouting about. He seems to have blown out his eardrums, after all. Then again, he doesn't actually speak Elvish, so maybe this is just speculation.

Elhan and Jaheira drag him out of the gore zone, away from the still-twitching corpse of the Ravager. They prop him up against an old tree, and Abdel closes his eyes, deciding to rest for a moment.

"I killed her...." he said again. "It's the Ravager," Elhan said.
Abdel was surprised at the sound of the elf s voice. The dull hum was fading into a piercing ring, but he was beginning to hear voices over that ring. "It's still twitching," Elhan added. Abdel wanted to smile, but his face wouldn't respond.
"Abdel's wounds are already healing," Jaheira said, ignoring the Ravager's death spasms. "It's impossible. He's stopped bleeding, but I can see straight through the hole in his shoulder."

See? He's fine. He's not going to suffer any permanent damage either. This strikes me as a missed opportunity - Jaheira should be frantically trying to clean the wound before it closes itself, because otherwise Abdel is going to end up with bits of metal and chitin embedded into his flesh. That would've been an interesting twist for Abdel's regeneration. Or does his body just expel foreign materials?

At least the story finally acknowledges how overpowered Abdel really is. Elhan watches as the Bhaalspawn's bones regrow and the flesh reknits itself. Jaheira helps the process along with a Cure Light Wounds or two, and Abdel figures he will be okay in a few minutes.

Unfortunately, he does not get those minutes.

Abdel managed to open his eyes, and he smiled at her. The smile Jaheira returned was relieved but tinged with sadness.
"You had to, Abdel," she told him softly. "She was gone before—"
The druid was interrupted by an ear-splitting crack that was answered by the startled shouts of a dozen elves.
"It's cracking!" Elhan called. He fell backward on his rump, sitting next to Abdel, who could only let his head limply hang in the direction of the fallen monster.
A clawed hand — not as big as the Ravager's monstrous claws — burst out of a widening crack in the creature's otherwise still chest.
"Mielikki help us," Jaheira breathed. "It's another one."

Pffff. Okay, we all knew there was another thing coming, since we are still three chapters from the end, but this is... a particularly silly twist.

Something climbs out of the Ravager's chest, smaller but just as spiked. Also, it has a bug head instead of a lizard head. The book names this thing as the Slayer, which you may be familiar with from the game.

Abdel felt for the Kozakuran's sword, but found only a blast of pain from his shredded shoulder. The creature seemed to nod at Abdel again, then it leaped into the air, flinging itself straight up into the heavens like a crossbow bolt. In less than a second it had faded to a point, then nothing against the blazing blue sky.
"Oh, no," Jaheira sighed.

My thoughts exactly.

Elhan seems ready to call it a day, since the Slayer isn't attacking the city, but Jaheira forms a suspicion.

Elhan spun on her, his eyes wild. He calmed himself quickly, taking a deep breath, then said, "The queen is safe. Ellesime is in Myth Rhynn."
Abdel and Jaheira exchanged a long, pained, exhausted look, and the sellsword began the painful process of trying to stand up.

Dun dun dunn! See, the twist is that it made no goddamn sense for Irenicus to send the Ravager to Suldanessalar if Ellesime is actually in Myth Rhynn. Unless Irenicus meant for the Ravager to die, and I am so completely done with that particular trope.

* * * * *

Speaking of Ellesime, let's actually check in with her real quick.

Ellesime screamed again, and the guards near her cringed at the sound of pure, desperate fear in their queen's shriek.
The link she'd shared with Irenicus for centuries uncounted had never been one of words or even tangible thoughts. The two were simply aware of each other. Now, for Ellesime to have said that something had changed would be an incredible understatement. The man at the other end of this joining of spirits was at once in mortal agony and riding a cresting wave of self-satisfied triumph.

I... why do they still have that link? Irenicus was exiled and stripped of his elf status. We know the elves are stupid because they left Irenicus with his powers, but this? Giving him a direct line to the elf queen? One that apparently doesn't have safety measures? This is a whole new tier of stupid. (Also, I'm pretty sure that "agonised / smug" is the default emotional state of Jon Irenicus.)

Anyway, Myth Rhynn. The city is a ruin, and it's technically forbidden to go there, but these are unusual times. The elves have used some of the local debris to put up barricades around the old library.

In an unusual show of efficiency, Elhan let Ellesime know about the Slayer situation by way of sending. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sending.htm) He also managed to round up a mage who still had spell slots left, so Team Abdel arrives before the demon.

Elhan, dizzy from the teleport, stumbled to Ellesime's side and spoke to her briefly in Elvish.
"I can feel him falling apart," the queen said weakly. "He can't control it."
Abdel, his shoulder now a mass of red, tender skin and his side almost completely healed, squeezed the grip of the enchanted sword. He'd have to choose between this woman, this elf queen who was a vision of such beauty Abdel had never thought possible, and the life of the little girl he remembered playing with in Winthrop's wine cellar.

This is kind of a cop-out. We know from Adalon that the author can do impressive physical descriptions, but he doesn't even try with Ellesime. At least mention something about supernaturally smooth skin or... I don't know. I know that this is a non-visual medium, but Ellesime is meant to have love me and despair (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ1jtwEi0fU)-tier beauty. Either don't bring it up or give it more than 34% of a sentence.

The elf queen drops some last-second exposition on us. She moved to Myth Rhynn to make sure she's at least not in the same location as the Tree of Life, and she also has some thoughts about Imoen.

"Your sister," Ellesime said, addressing Abdel directly for the first time, "is not like you." (...)
"She's enough like me," Abdel hissed, "so that your old lover could turn her into that... that..."
"It would have been an avatar," Ellesime said, "if Bhaal were alive. Instead, it's just... close enough. It can kill me, this new one, the Slayer. Your sister's blood was lying dormant, where yours was given a chance to show itself." (...)
"What could all this matter now?" Abdel asked, his brow furrowing in anger. "I have to kill her. You've brought us all here, and now there's only one way to stop all this. To keep this Slayer of Irenicus's from killing you — from killing us all — I have to kill Imoen."
"No," Ellesime said, "there is a chance..."

https://s8.postimg.cc/uw6b2uqlh/utes_RLE.png (https://postimg.cc/image/t4dc7y78h/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/utesRLE)

Nick Harkaway has ruined the rhethorical ellipsis for me. (Incidentally, I recommend The Gone-Away World. If you plan on reading it, I strongly urge you to avoid any information about the book outside of the cover text. It's best experienced unspoiled. Trust me.)

I figure this works as a cliffhanger ending. Irenicus' plot is... convoluted, to say the least.

Last time, we brought down some divine intervention and ended the siege on Suldanessalar.

https://s8.postimg.cc/c3ufza1x1/Vt_PWoc_E.png (https://postimg.cc/image/qzsz6vdbl/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/VtPWocE)

There are no more sounds of battle in the city, and the enemies are all gone. There are even some civilians (https://i.imgur.com/dlwbCoH.png) around. Reirra here runs the very last shop in the game, so if you have gold left, now's a good time to spend it. You can also still backtrack and do some sidequests if you wish.

https://s8.postimg.cc/qzsz6vl1h/Wcak_Sdu.png (https://postimg.cc/image/nsyfn90ld/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/WcakSdu)

The way to the palace is open. You can check in with Demin or Elhan if you want, but they just tell you to go here.

https://s8.postimg.cc/hf9ck03f9/TLDjr5_U.png (https://postimg.cc/image/5q5cw1cgh/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/TLDjr5U)

One wonders how this tree receives enough water and sunlight, given that the palace appears to have a closed roof. Magic, probably. It provides some nuts (https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/25939/nuts-for-the-tree-of-life-bg-2-vanilla), assuming the script works (it can break).

The palace only has one other room:

https://s8.postimg.cc/m15gscwo5/vo_Ch4_S8.png (https://postimg.cc/image/xdi2a55cx/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/voCh4S8)

These two statues are incomplete and you need to find a horn and a harp in the city to complete them. Doing so opens up a stairway. I'm not a fan of this - it's really just busywork at this point. I don't think this even technically qualifies as a puzzle, since Demin will just outright tell you if you ask her.

https://s8.postimg.cc/u6niqismt/NR8_Xt9_O.png (https://postimg.cc/image/uw6b2vt69/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/NR8Xt9O)

This is the end. And our last chance to reconsider. (This file is called PLAYER1.DLG, by the way.)

:mitd: NARRATOR: You feel a tingling as you approach the stairs; a familiar touch which you instinctively recognize as your own soul. Irenicus is near, in the next room.
:mitd: NARRATOR: You pause, knowing that you may not survive the battle to come. You have little choice, however; without your soul, your fate is a grim and certain one.
:mitd: NARRATOR: You turn and regard those who remain in your party. You feel a need, perhaps, to ascertain their loyalty, their friendship, or to offer a chance to reconsider.

:mitd: NARRATOR: Imoen, your sister and steadfast friend, who has changed so much in the time you have known her. Shadows circle her eyes, but she smiles as she notices your gaze.
:roy: CHARNAME: Imoen... you have your soul back. There's no need for you to endanger yourself any more. This is my fight now.
:haley: IMOEN: Irenicus hurt me, too, you know. He kept me in that asylum... and experimented on me, and took my soul like it was an appetizer. Uh-uh, I'm not going anywhere. I'm with you all the way.

:mitd: NARRATOR: Aerie, at times innocent, at times determined, the young elf has come far since you took her from the circus in Athkatla. Is she ready for what is to come?
:roy: CHARNAME: Aerie... you don't have to continue past here. This isn't your fight.
:eek: AERIE: If... if it wasn't for you, I wouldn't have escaped from Kalah. I... I wouldn't be out here, and I wouldn't have the chance to face this evil. I won't stop now no matter what the cost
.
:mitd: NARRATOR: Viconia, the brooding dark elf cleric of Shar who has remained since her rescue from the fanatics in Athkatla; In the end, however, you are sure she serves herself.
:roy: CHARNAME: Viconia, we're heading for a fight, and there's no need to endanger yourself without need.
:amused: VICONIA: I have encountered few who have given me quarter since I fled my home. You have saved my life on more than one occasion... we have fought and bled together and I will give my last breath for you, if necessary. But come... glory awaits us.

:mitd: NARRATOR: Minsc, the scarred and loyal ranger, always ready to leap into battle with Boo ever at his side. You wonder if he truly understands the struggle to come.
:roy: CHARNAME: Minsc, you are a valiant warrior... but there's no need for you to risk your life in this battle. This is my fight.
:thog: MINSC: Minsc owes much to the killer of Dynaheir! I stand with you! Nowhere shall I go until the heel of justice has been firmly imprinted once and for all into the wizard's evil backside! Nowhere!

:mitd: NARRATOR: Jaheira, proud and resolute; she has been with you since the beginning, practically. She knows you well, and has suffered loss at the hands of Irenicus, as well.
:roy: CHARNAME: Jaheira... I have to get my soul back, you know that. This is not necessarily your fight.
:miko: JAHEIRA: Long ago I promised to assist you if your adopted father fell. That promise has not expired, nor has your worthiness. I stand with you if you will have me.

:mitd: NARRATOR: There is nothing more to be said. Without a further word, you turn grimly back to the stairs before you. Your soul awaits.

Unsurprisingly, every single companion in the game gets an opportunity to say their piece. I'm going to skip CHARNAME's lines here, since it's always the same three choices ("it's my fight" vs. "are you sure" vs. "you better have my back there") but here's all the reaction shots:

:mitd: NARRATOR: Anomen, cleric of the Helm and hearty warrior, he has been tested perhaps the most of all your companions. He began seeking fame, why does he remain?
:yuk: ANOMEN: Things may have changed since I first laid eyes upon you in the tavern, <CHARNAME>, but I refuse to back away from a fight. Whether we are victorious or we fall today, I could not live with myself should I fight with anything less than all I possess.

:mitd: NARRATOR: Valygar... the intense and noble ranger whom you saved from the predations of the Cowled Wizards and has been your companion ever since.
:confused: VALYGAR: Perhaps not all magic is evil, <CHARNAME>. But Irenicus is worse than anything Lavok ever was, I am sure of it. I intend to help you stop this madman. Whatever the cost.

:mitd: NARRATOR: Mazzy, determined and valiant, who yearns to be a true paladin of Arvoreen and has accompanied you since you freed her from the Shade Lord.
:cool: MAZZY: I can no more abandon you now than I could have my old friends in the Shade Lord's dungeon, <CHARNAME>. I shall remain honorable... even unto death, itself.

:mitd: NARRATOR: Jan, ever the irreverent jester; you wonder if he is serious this time... if he has considered fully what may come of the next battle.
:elan: JAN: You've done me a few good turns here and there, <CHARNAME>. And besides... leaving now would be like turning your back on a three-copper-a-barrel turnip deal. It just isn't done. I would become a Jansen of infamy and ill-repute, never again allowed to involve myself in turnip merchandise anywhere. Tsk. Even Golodon the Unmanned would consider himself superior to me, and I've seen the man's underwear.

:mitd: NARRATOR: Edwin, who once promised a year of service but isn't the sort to keep his word, yet the Red Wizard remains, keeping his own counsel and motivations secret.
:redcloak: EDWIN: And where do you suppose I should be going? You have a nose that seems to sniff out the path of power, and I will wrest what portion of it I wish until I am sated.. (And then, perhaps, we see what becomes of *you*!)

:mitd: NARRATOR: Haer'Dalis, the tiefling bard who has been a unique companion, always enigmatic and obsessed with entropy. Why he continues to follow you, you don't really know.
:sabine: HAER'DALIS: Ahh, but I have little choice in the way of it now, my cautious raven. Your life is an act of such vivid interest to me, I cannot help but remain at your side to see how the last act unfolds before me. My blades stand ready to fall, if entropy dictates it is so.

:mitd: NARRATOR: Keldorn, the wise paladin and venerable member of the Most Noble Order of the Radiant Heart; He has sworn to accompany you, but he has a family as well.
:annoyed: KELDORN: The path of honor dictates that I see this through to the end, my friend... no matter what. I would not be able to lift my eyes were I to abandon you while such an evil remains unchecked. I could serve good no greater than by what I do now.

:mitd: NARRATOR: Korgan, the vicious and self-interested dwarf, but a seasoned adventurer who also happens to be one of the most effective fighters you have encountered.
:furious: KORGAN: Ach, don't be givin' me any o' that! Me axe be as sharp as she gets, and it's itching fer a wizardly bloodletting! If I dies, I takes me chances, but I'll have none o' yer coddling!

:mitd: NARRATOR: Nalia, young and naive, yet she has come a long way since you first met her. She keeps a generous spirit and youthful attitude, and you wonder if she belongs here.
:redface: NALIA: I... I've come this far, haven't I? I refuse to let someone like Irenicus get his way. If he gets the power he wants, the suffering will only get worse. No... No, I'm ready to fight, <CHARNAME>.

:roy: CHARNAME: Cernd, steadfast and wise, he has proven himself time again since he joined your ranks, but he has duties and loyalties elsewhere.
:sigh: CERND: Irenicus, in his madness, threatens to upset the balance in a way that few have ever proven capable, <CHARNAME>. It is good that you will regain your soul, but I will give my life to stop this man from attaining his goal.

The conversation changes a little if you have completed a romance. You will be given one last chance to affirm your mutual love:

:mitd: NARRATOR: Aerie: she has stayed with you, even though not ready for a serious relationship, but there have been times when both of you have forgotten this. Her eyes are wide as you address her.
:roy: CHARNAME: Aerie... I ---
:eek: AERIE: I... I know, <CHARNAME>. I know. Or at least I think I do. It... it isn't important. I've got something to say, myself.
:eek: AERIE: You've shown me what the importance of my life could be. What I could do to make a difference. Irenicus has to be stopped, no matter what. And you have to regain your soul.
:eek: AERIE: I... I owe you everything, <CHARNAME>. You've saved my life... and far, far more, you've saved my soul. If I have to give up my life to help you now, I would do so gladly.
:eek: AERIE: I would do it because I... I love you. And I never knew what that meant, before, really... but I do now. But there is a task ahead of us that comes first. The future holds what... what it will. And if it holds that we live through this, together... well, nothing would make me happier.

:mitd: NARRATOR: Anomen: he has been severely tested during his time with you. It has brought you closer, and he is steadfast in his devotion. He is pensive, as if he senses what you are about to say.
:miko: CHARNAME: Anomen... I ---
:yuk: ANOMEN: Nay, lass, nay. If there are words that are to be spoken before we do what we must, let it be I that speaks them.
:yuk: ANOMEN: I have said harsh things to you. I have done much that I regret. But you have stayed the course with me throughout it all. More than that, you have saved my life... nay, more... my very soul.
:yuk: ANOMEN: I have said more than once that I love you, <CHARNAME>. But those words describe nothing of the ache in my heart I feel for you, now. Would that there were some way I could repay you in kind all you have done for me.
:yuk: ANOMEN: Let us go, now, and stop this madman who threatens all. Let us regain your stolen soul. And should one or both of us fall, then that is what the fates will. If not... then we shall speak again, and soon. I swear it.

:mitd: NARRATOR: Viconia: she has stayed though your relationship could not work, despite moments when it seemed otherwise. Her dark eyes regard you oddly as you speak.
:roy: CHARNAME: Viconia... I ---
:amused: VICONIA: There is no point in saying what you are going to say, <CHARNAME>. It changes nothing.
:amused: VICONIA: You are the only one I have encountered since I fled my homeland who has both taken my measure and given me quarter. You have saved my life more than once, we have fought together and bled together...and more.
:amused: VICONIA: Whether loyalty is a trait you would ascribe to me does not matter. I would offer my last breath in your defense. You are... unique amongst men, and I salute you.
:amused: VICONIA: Now let us finish this business you have at hand. The future will deal with ... us... as it may.

:mitd: NARRATOR: Jaheira: you and she have grown close and been through much. Her eyes meet yours instantly and grow pensive, sensing what you are going to ask.
:roy: CHARNAME: Jaheira... I ---
:miko: JAHEIRA: It is not necessary to say anything, <CHARNAME>. I know what comes next... I know what may happen. To either of us.
:miko: JAHEIRA: We have been through too much to let that stop what you must do. For all the pain that losing Khalid brought... I would not give up our years of good works.
:miko: JAHEIRA: Let us regain your soul and make you whole again. And what comes after... comes after. I look forward to it... should the gods prove willing.

Finally, there is some special dialogue if you are doing a solo run:

:mitd: NARRATOR: Fortunately you arrive at this battle alone. Whether that means you have the power to win or not, you are unsure, but the risk is yours alone, as it should be.

This sort of thing is fairly standard now. Most RPGs have a scene like this near the end, where you talk to your True Companions and allow them to back out - but nobody does. It was rather moving back in the day. Shadows of Amn didn't neccessarily invent this, but it certainly helped codify it.

Nowhere to go but down.

https://s8.postimg.cc/d64mhunb9/XWMUAi_T.png (https://postimg.cc/image/50mkjoz29/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/XWMUAiT)

Lady Ellesime, I presume.

:vaarsuvius: ELLESIME: Wait! Who comes? You... you are the Child of Bhaal, aren't you? The one that Joneleth... Jon... boasted of stealing power from? He claimed to have slain you!
:roy: CHARNAME: Yes, but... who are you? And what is Irenicus doing?
:vaarsuvius: ELLESIME: I am Ellesime, Queen of Suldanessellar. Joneleth has me at the center of the tree, trapped in a cage of corruptive magics. This is as far as I have been able to send my image.
:vaarsuvius: ELLESIME: Joneleth, the one you know as Irenicus, he...is drawing power from the Tree of Life into himself. There are...parasites attached to the Tree, draining it for him...
:roy: CHARNAME: Parasites? What manner of creatures are these?
:vaarsuvius: ELLESIME: I do not know what manner of parasites these things are...but they are formed from corruption itself, I fear! They feed Joneleth the power and maintain my cage!
:vaarsuvius: ELLESIME: Whether you are here to save my people or simply kill he who has tormented you, I care not. One thing must be done; the parasites on the Tree of Life must die!
:vaarsuvius: ELLESIME: Do that and I can sever Jon's connection to the Tree. Then, and only then, may he be killed! I...believe he has protected the parasites somehow...I do not know. Hurry!
:roy: CHARNAME: How do I reach the parasites? There is no route I can see amongst all these branches!
:vaarsuvius: ELLESIME: Yes... he has severed branches. Use the nuts... the nuts from the palace gardens! They will grow new branches on the tree! You can use them to cross!
:vaarsuvius: ELLESIME: Do it quickly, Child of Bhaal! If Jon drains the Tree of Life, all of Suldanessellar is doomed... and Jon will have the power he craves! Please, you *must* stop him!!

We are drawing very close to Irenicus. These parasites are the final obstacle between us and the bad guy. Note that we still haven't crossed the point of no return - you could, if you wish, go up the staircase and walk back all the way to Waukeen's Promenade. But once you start killing the parasites... well, you'll see.

I hope to see you again next time, when we'll finally put a stop to all of this.

So the book and the game have diverged a fair bit at this point. I guess that the exact method Irenicus is planning to use doesn't actually matter all that much, but... it would have been nice to be able to make sense of events.

This book has an Evil Plan that drives events behind the scenes. That much is clear from the beginning. The plan is kept obscure from the audience, and that's all well and good, but the way it's written makes me think... well... it makes me think of a bad DM actually. See, here's the thing: Irenicus strikes me as the impression of a chessmaster-type (https://theanteroomblog.wordpress.com/2014/10/13/monday-morning-villains-the-chessmaster/) villain. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=14261822180A80277900&page=0) He is always several steps ahead of Team Abdel, and nothing they do seems to actually affect his overall plans, so that's fair enough... but I'm not getting the impression that there's actually a coherent plan behind all of this.

I've noted before that this book is really obsessed with all-according-to-keikaku (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22943457&postcount=254) moments, to an almost comical (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23064368&postcount=380) degree. Our heroes do something to stop Irenicus, then we cut to Irenicus steepling his fingers and cackling about how he expected them to do this. That's an effective way to set up the villain as a chessmaster, but it's also really cheap. You can pull this twist off, but it's extremely important that it makes sense in hindsight. This book... never quite gets there.

I think that the obscurity of Irenicus' plans is actually intentional. By never actually describing the scheme, the author doesn't have to explain how Irenicus' plans are furthered by having Imoen blow up Ust Natha and kill all the drow. If there is no overall plan, then the success or failure of any given step will have no impact (https://www.nuklearpower.com/2008/01/15/episode-942-cross-eyed-traffic/) on the macro level. The way Irenicus acts creates the impression of an overarching plan, but I can't figure out a way for it to actually work. Taken at face value, it's a needlessly complicated way to get a big old demon to Elf City, which then dies into a slightly smaller demon. There's easier ways to do that. Like Gate. (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Gate_(arcane))

This also leads to a really unsatisfying story. There's no real sense of progress - we still don't actually know Irenicus' goals, or the means by which he hopes to achieve them, so we can't really gauge whether Team Abdel is making any progress in stopping him. That's not inherently a bad thing. You can definitely write fiction that's mostly about the heroes flailing and trying to figure out what the plan actually is. This can be a tension-building device. How certain are you that you really disabled all the contingency devices? Then the villain can reveal one final fallback scheme as an eleventh-hour plot twist and we can have an exciting last chapter.

But this is not the right genre for it, and it's just... not handled right. The way this book is written, you're just waiting for when Irenicus stops making things up. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bBD5yyT-s0)

I struggled to think of an AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION ACTIVITY for this one. While the final battle is exciting and all, it also means this update is a bit... short.

I did just dump a whole bunch of words about the party members, so... perhaps that could be an interesting topic. Did any of the NPCs in any of the games stand out to you? Or, conversely, do you feel there are gaps in the lineup? We did talk about evil parties not too long ago, and I feel like the roster is a little shallow there. Do you have any personal favourites, beyond what we discussed so far? Or pet peeves? I used to be quite sad that Xan didn't make a cameo in Shadows of Amn; I'm not sure if he'd make it into my party, but he certainly would've added to the local colour. How about you?

Keltest

2018-06-09, 08:34 AM

Frankly, I think we might be overthinking Book!Irenicus' plan here. Maybe he was happy with blowing up the Drow because theyre all genuinely awful and he still has a bunch of the racial prejudices he grew up with. I mean, besides the drow getting blown up, who wouldn't be happy about that?

As for the transparency of his plan, im of two minds. On the one hand, Abdel is really dumb. You don't need me to tell you this. Unless Irenicus just came up and told him what he wanted to accomplish, he isn't going to figure it out. On the other hand, the reader's only source of information on this plan is, well, Abdel. So were confused and frustrated because this moron cant or wont even try to figure this guy out, and we don't have a clue what he's actually doing, beyond ticking off Abdel and co.

Kish

2018-06-09, 10:24 AM

Oh, there it is! Sorry, I missed that one. Turns out I was wrong - Valygar does have a few issues with the gods. I know that non-theistic clerics exist, as long as you serve a "cause" of some kind. Maybe there's a similar loophole for rangers?

In the tabletop Forgotten Realms, there is no such loophole for anyone: you cast divine spells, you need a divine patron.

Anywhere but the Forgotten Realms, there's no need for a loophole: most divine spellcasters don't need any form of divine patron.

In Baldur's Gate, there is, manifestly, no need for a loophole; the metaphysics are standard for D&D, without the Forgotten Realms-specific stuff.

Spore

2018-06-10, 06:07 PM

Did any of the NPCs in any of the games stand out to you? Or, conversely, do you feel there are gaps in the lineup?

Xzar (or Montaron) were really missing in this one. Their connection to the Zhentarim is gold as far as story involvement in Faerun goes. And the homicidal halfling could have filled the evil thief slot that just recently the enhanced edition closed. With Montaron and Hexxat, you would have all multiclasses and most single classes available for every spec. And Tiax, oh god, yes. I would have LOVED a thief/cleric and an insane one to boot.

As for outstanding NPC companions? Cernd, because he is so incredibly mediocre I have yet to see a run with him in the main party. And I love Mazzy so much that I built a Pathfinder Halfling Paladin around the idea of a determined exalted warrior for the good of human (and halfling-) kind.

Rusty Spoon

2018-06-10, 06:27 PM

I struggled to think of an AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION ACTIVITY for this one. While the final battle is exciting and all, it also means this update is a bit... short.

I did just dump a whole bunch of words about the party members, so... perhaps that could be an interesting topic. Did any of the NPCs in any of the games stand out to you? Or, conversely, do you feel there are gaps in the lineup? We did talk about evil parties not too long ago, and I feel like the roster is a little shallow there. Do you have any personal favourites, beyond what we discussed so far? Or pet peeves? I used to be quite sad that Xan didn't make a cameo in Shadows of Amn; I'm not sure if he'd make it into my party, but he certainly would've added to the local colour. How about you?

I really liked Branwen from BG1. Her ability to summon her own weapon at a point in the game where non-magical weapons tend to break was really useful. She never got a cameo later on, did she?
Lack of evil characters has been covered, I think. Neutral characters didn't get too much love either, though. From memory in BG2, there was:
Jaheira (basically good), Cernd (blah), Jan (so quirky, you guys! Are you not entertained?), Haer Delise (why are you even in my party?) and Anomen (alignment up for grabs).
So, all kind of annoying in their own way, and very much non-standard in the party set up (want a dedicated wizard, thief, front liner? Nope. At least you have plenty of heals, 'cause you're gonna need them!).
Though, now I'm looking at it I do actually want to try that as a team. Charname could... be... a barbarian, maybe. Let's get our dysfunction on!

Kish

2018-06-10, 06:33 PM

I really liked Branwen from BG1. Her ability to summon her own weapon at a point in the game where non-magical weapons tend to break was really useful. She never got a cameo later on, did she?
Branwen and Xan appeared in the BG2 tutorial. Few people have played it.

russdm

2018-06-10, 06:42 PM

Kish

2018-06-10, 06:53 PM

While I'd be lying if I said I particularly liked (say) Jaheira or Bastila, I'll fight the question of whether Bastila is somehow deeper or more memorable than Jaheira to the mat.

And the same applies to lots of other characters. You find HK more complex than Minsc? That is, apparently, a point of view it is possible to hold. And so on.

In BG they only stay with you if you don't piss them off. They are all potentially loyal--at least, for some value of loyal; Edwin is questionable even if you do everything he wants. If you treat them badly they'll leave and/or attack you. (Jaheira, as previously discussed, will storm off if you ever remove her from your active party after Galverey's betrayal--assuming you had enough Reputation for her not to simply leave at Galverey's betrayal.)

Keltest

2018-06-10, 06:56 PM

I have always felt that there were too many companions, and once they join your party, they stay the whole way through. That actually doesn't really reflect anything but the tabletop game. Why do they stay with you? Undying loyalty? in Game, you can treat some like a real jerk.

I think there should have a smaller group of characters that got really fleshed out, so you have maybe a full party of real personalities. Even later Bioware games, like Kotor, Mass Effect, and Dragonage, feels like they stocked up on archetypes, a great many that you just dump at home/ship/base-place, and never take with you often.

I remember Minsc and Boo fondly, I remember Jaheira barely at all, I remember Imoen, because of that introduction in the first game, but I could barely tell about the other NPCs that much. I just don't think they are that memorable.

As Kotor, I can tell you about each one. I know who they are and some of what they are good for using in your party. I know who has issues with each other character. Plus there is only 9 of them to recall. And they get to be fully voiced and you can have real conversations with them later.

I can tell you about characters in Mass Effect. I can distinguish them some. Then everything I said about the characters in Kotor can apply here as well.

I don't think you can do that with the Baldur's Gate Characters. Or I can't. Maybe others can actually go down the massive (Isn't there as many NPC Companions as characters in the Transformers Line? Or something like 50 or so?) list and identify with their traits.

So given that, I can welcome having less in the sheer number of NPC companion, and ones that you can really grow to like with the constant interaction, like Jolee Bindo or Canderous Ordo or HK-47.

Actually, most companions will leave if you tick them off enough. Usually that requires acting against their alignment (viconia will leave if you get a really high reputation from doing good acts no matter how polite or rude you are to her). But there are some things you can do or say that will result in them just leaving the party. Aerie, for example, will not stay in a party with you if you refuse to kick out Korgan from your party when she asks you to. Korgan, obviously, will leave if you do.

While I'd be lying if I said I particularly liked (say) Jaheira or Bastila, I'll fight the question of whether Bastila is somehow deeper or more memorable than Jaheira to the mat.

And the same applies to lots of other characters. You find HK more complex than Minsc? That is, apparently, a point of view it is possible to hold. And so on.

In BG they only stay with you if you don't piss them off. They are all potentially loyal--at least, for some value of loyal; Edwin is questionable even if you do everything he wants. If you treat them badly they'll leave and/or attack you. (Jaheira, as previously discussed, will storm off if you ever remove her from your active party after Galverey's betrayal--assuming you had enough Reputation for her not to simply leave at Galverey's betrayal.)

Actually, im inclined to agree about HK-47. While Minsc is amazing, he is also not a particularly complex character. HK on the other hand will apparently do such things as philosophize about the meaning of love in his spare time, having a ready answer for that question should the Exile ask him. Minsc's simplicity is not the only thing that makes him work, but lets not pretend it isn't an important part of his charm.

Spore

2018-06-11, 06:42 AM

Keltest

2018-06-11, 06:48 AM

About the most memorable thing about Jaheira is that I cannot hear her German voice actress as anything other than her in other games now. It's even worse, she does commercials. Now I have Jaheira selling cars and cosmetics to me...

FOR CHRIST'S SAKE SHE IS PAMELA ANDERSON IN BAYWATCH FOR US.

"YES oh omnipresent authority figure!?"

Spore

2018-06-11, 07:27 AM

"YES oh omnipresent authority figure!?"

:miko:Ja, oh allgegenwärtige Authoritätsperson.

Keltest

2018-06-11, 08:22 AM

:miko:Ja, oh allgegenwärtige Authoritätsperson.

I didn't think it was possible but it sounds even more passive-aggressive in German!

Calemyr

2018-06-11, 08:23 AM

I'll talk about this in the final update, because I'm not actually sure yet. It's fun, but I have relatively limited free time these days. ToB is shorter, as a game, but the book is just as long as the other ones. I haven't actually played SoD, which I should probably do, but I don't think there's a novel? We'll see.

ToB is definitely shorter, especially if you've already raided the keep in SoA. But it's worth noting that, as I understand it, ToB was written by Drew Karpyshyn, who has a somewhat better reputation as a writer. I have to admit I'd be curious to learn if he can save the novel series.

I'm not aware of a novel for SoD, mainly because it's a creation of Beamdog rather than Atari/Bioware. I've played the game and found that it was... good. For the most part. A bit inconsistent, rather railroad-y, and linear, but good over all. A few cringe-worthy moments, and some pretty excellent characters. Next to nobody talks about the game, though, so I'd relish the chance to see you dissect it with the panache you have the older games.

I struggled to think of an AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION ACTIVITY for this one. While the final battle is exciting and all, it also means this update is a bit... short.

I did just dump a whole bunch of words about the party members, so... perhaps that could be an interesting topic. Did any of the NPCs in any of the games stand out to you? Or, conversely, do you feel there are gaps in the lineup? We did talk about evil parties not too long ago, and I feel like the roster is a little shallow there. Do you have any personal favourites, beyond what we discussed so far? Or pet peeves? I used to be quite sad that Xan didn't make a cameo in Shadows of Amn; I'm not sure if he'd make it into my party, but he certainly would've added to the local colour. How about you?

I've said it before, but the best part of the game, to my mind, are the instances where the npcs form their own relationships. Minsc and Nalia or Aerie, Aerie and Haer'dalis, Mazzy and Valygar, Mazzy and Korgan, things like that. This may be Charname's story, yes, but I like it when the other characters have their own lives as well.

I'll be honest, I couldn't stand Baldur's Gate 1 as it originally came out. The NPCs were designed to be expendable and it showed. It wasn't until the mods BG1NPC and Baldur's Gate Trilogy (which imported the BG1 game into the BG2 engine) that I could play it. BG1NPC expanded the BG1 NPCs to the point of being BG2 NPCs, complete with banters and relationships and even romances. It gave them life, something they were sorely lacking. The Enhanced Edition (Beamdog's version) added a quartet of new characters with a lot of interactions and content. I really enjoyed all of them - particularly Baeloth - a drow sorcerer with a knack for alliteration, which Neera and Rasaad find hilarious. EE also made it possible to play... well... the "genki girl", as TVTropes puts it. The energetic and playful female archetype that runs circles around the more serious characters, in spite of her tragic situation. A female Charname can have altogether way too much fun with Rasaad and Dorn, and it's a blast.

The original BG2, I have to say I can't find a dud in the cast. Cernd comes vaguely close with his sober attitude and somewhat lackluster kit, but he can really show up when he feels like it (his epic roast of Edwina is a thing of beauty) and, bugged though the kit may be, he's still a divine caster that can turn into a freaking werewolf. But everyone brings something interesting to the table in the game, and cutting my party down to 5 (6 including Charname) is always really hard. The Enhanced Edition adds the main EE trio of Neera, Dorn, and Rasaad, but also the mysterious thief Hexxat and Wilson - a bear built like a kensai. Again, they are all pretty interesting (although Wilson doesn't speak, he's still a friggin' bear), and add a lot of content to the game.

SoD has my single favorite character in the franchise: M'khiin Grubdoubler - an aging goblin shaman who is frankly sick of being the adult in a race of eternal children. She is incredible, with her blase acceptance of the fact that her race earns its reputation but also her assertion that the "civilized" races are racist jackasses. In a franchise of over-the-top, scenery chewing hams, she's refreshingly low key without being boring, and she's useful to boot by being a spontaneous divine caster with a broader access to weaponry (basically anything a goblin's been seen using) and a unique summoning mechanic.

Outside of Baldur's Gate, I have an enduring love for Wrex and Mordin (Mass Effect series), Serana (Skyrim, Dawnguard DLC), and HK-47 (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic).

Spore

2018-06-11, 09:52 AM

I didn't think it was possible but it sounds even more passive-aggressive in German!

I mean...not really. https://youtu.be/l39tr_2PrBA?t=11m20s

(Then again this voice clip is before she realizes Khalid is dead.

mangosta71

2018-06-11, 11:10 AM

Outside of Baldur's Gate, I have an enduring love for Wrex and Mordin (Mass Effect series), Serana (Skyrim, Dawnguard DLC), and HK-47 (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic).

No love for the companions in Dragon's Age: Origins? Alistair in particular is brilliantly written, but Sten, Leliana, and Morrigan are also fantastic. Zevran was kind of forgettable, and I didn't much care for Wynne's constant mothering, and Oghren usually joined the party too late to get much of a chance to shine as, while the game had dynamic scaling, the minimum level for Orzammar was the highest so most playthroughs did it last out of necessity. But all of the companions banter with all of the others, and all of them will react to different events. You can piss Sten off to the point that he'll challenge you for leadership. Leliana and Wynne will fight you to the death if they're with you and you defile the Ashes of Andraste, and will leave and never return if they're not in the group. And several of them develop in different ways depending on how you handle their personal quests and/or how much they like you.

As for the BG series I've always had a soft spot for Viconia, and that's only grown as I've matured and realized that a lot of her behavior is just posturing. She's been abused and hurt, and while she's angry, bitter, resentful, etc. she's not nearly as heartless as she pretends to be.

Calemyr

2018-06-11, 11:28 AM

No love for the companions in Dragon's Age: Origins? Alistair in particular is brilliantly written, but Sten, Leliana, and Morrigan are also fantastic. Zevran was kind of forgettable, and I didn't much care for Wynne's constant mothering, and Oghren usually joined the party too late to get much of a chance to shine as, while the game had dynamic scaling, the minimum level for Orzammar was the highest so most playthroughs did it last out of necessity. But all of the companions banter with all of the others, and all of them will react to different events. You can piss Sten off to the point that he'll challenge you for leadership. Leliana and Wynne will fight you to the death if they're with you and you defile the Ashes of Andraste, and will leave and never return if they're not in the group. And several of them develop in different ways depending on how you handle their personal quests and/or how much they like you.

As for the BG series I've always had a soft spot for Viconia, and that's only grown as I've matured and realized that a lot of her behavior is just posturing. She's been abused and hurt, and while she's angry, bitter, resentful, etc. she's not nearly as heartless as she pretends to be.

I guess DAO had Shale. She was pretty awesome. And Morrigan, of course, being voiced by Claudia Black and all. But really, if I were making a dream team of all my favorite characters in all of gaming, they'd be second string at best. That said, teaming up M'khiin, Wrex, and HK-47 on some wild galaxy-spanning quest? Magic.

And, yeah, it took me a long time to respect Viconia. I hated her at first, seeing her as a lowest common denominator cookie-cutter drow. She's got a lot more depth to her that I came to see as I matured, so she and Aerie changed places on my favorites list.

Mordokai

2018-06-11, 01:40 PM

I didn't think it was possible but it sounds even more passive-aggressive in German!

Everything sounds more aggressive in German :smalltongue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjV-4CtiIV0&index=96&list=FLbW201sMK6p0CavXWeN-_yQ&t=0s

Khay

2018-06-13, 02:43 PM

About the most memorable thing about Jaheira is that I cannot hear her German voice actress as anything other than her in other games now. It's even worse, she does commercials. Now I have Jaheira selling cars and cosmetics to me...

Oh god, I have that problem as well. I think it's because she has such a distinctive voice. She voices one of the random generic mage NPCs in Skyrim, and since the voice acting is otherwise dreadful, she really stands out.

I'm not aware of a novel for SoD, mainly because it's a creation of Beamdog rather than Atari/Bioware. I've played the game and found that it was... good. For the most part. A bit inconsistent, rather railroad-y, and linear, but good over all. A few cringe-worthy moments, and some pretty excellent characters. Next to nobody talks about the game, though, so I'd relish the chance to see you dissect it with the panache you have the older games.

Hmm. This could be interesting, actually! There really isn't a lot of good critical discussion of SoD, and I haven't actually played SoD yet. This would be a good excuse to finally pick it up. I'll have to think about it.

Calemyr

2018-06-13, 03:36 PM

Hmm. This could be interesting, actually! There really isn't a lot of good critical discussion of SoD, and I haven't actually played SoD yet. This would be a good excuse to finally pick it up. I'll have to think about it.

I hope you do. I've tried very hard to start conversations on the game, but nothing ever comes of it. Unless I ask if it failed as a game, because nobody's talking about it, in which case I get the answer "No, you fail.". It's really frustrating, because there's some really good stuff to talk about there. The Forest of Wyrms, extra content for Khalid and Dynaheir, the nature of the Shining Lady, the Forest of Wyrms, the trio of new characters added for this chapter, the fact that Imoen is out of the party due to Dual-Class-itus (a decidedly human disease)... the Forest of Wyrms...

I swear, someone has to talk about his bloody game, and better you than me. Besides which, the perspective of someone seeing events for the first time would be particularly cool.

For the record, the Forest of Wyrms isn't a major plot point (you're just there to collect a wardstone), but it's pretty important to the series all the same.
The Forest of Wyrms is home to a temple to Bhaal. One the Harpers raided some some fifteen or so years ago. Yeah. That's right. It's where Charname, Imoen, and Sarevok were about to be put to the knife before Gorion burst in.

I mean, in one way it's just a little side jaunt to pick up a wardstone needed to progress the plot, but I found it a powerful moment all the same. You've heard about this place multiple times in other games, though you never heard its name before. Right here, on these mossy stones, was the start of Charname's story. Everything that follows - from Sarevok's campaign to the fight atop the tree of life to bitter battle for Bhaal's soul - all of it stems from this place.

I've always wondered if anyone else considered the weight of that realization. But SoD is like Fight Club. We don't talk about it. Fix this for me, Khay. You're my only hope.

Spore

2018-06-13, 04:12 PM

Isn't Siege of Dragonspear a lame excuse for a IWD clone with BG characters? At least I read the majority of reviews said so.

@ Sarah Chalke/aggressive German
It's not THAT aggressive. Come on, we have a lot of authors and poets in Germany. It is a very nuanced language.

Just promise me and never listen to the BG 1 voice samples for the male protagonist. They. are. hilarious. I mean bad. (It's like redneck, hillbilly and nasal noble dude)

Calemyr

2018-06-13, 06:35 PM

Isn't Siege of Dragonspear a lame excuse for a IWD clone with BG characters? At least I read the majority of reviews said so.

I... can see that as far as it's an Infinity Engine game, but... that's about it. IWD is a full party of player-made characters without backgrounds or personality, going on an adventure they're pulled into but have little personal investment in otherwise. SoD is absolutely about Charname being a Bhaalspawn, in that awkward time where Sarevok is dead and rumors are just starting to spread that he's your brother, which would make you... Not every character returns, because the fellowship kinda dies after snuffing the last of Sarevok's supporters, but those that do are pretty well handled for the most part (I personally really dislike how they remade Safana, but that's just me) and the new recruits are pretty solid as well. It uses the BG1 style of banter, where they just spout their lines without going into dialogue mode, which can make it easy to miss, but there's a good bit of banter.

I definitely liked it more than IWD, which had little character and purpose between dungeon crawling and loot (though I will always have a soft spot for IWD's Male Fighter 5 voiceset (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDWodF7RmvM), which is my headcanon voice for Abdel/Male Charname. "Excuse me for a moment, uh, I'm gonna go find my blood... Oh! There's some!"). This has a solid story that's very much tied to Charname, ties the two games together, and tells a reasonably good story in the process.

Besides the new chapter and new player voices (Melissa Disney, AKA Imoen, does a wonderfully sassy adventuress that's my headcanon for Female Charname, with Jim Cummings and David Warner providing player voices as well, though they're both very reminiscent of Minsc and Irenicus, respectively), there's a a bunch of new features. Most of them have been ported to the other enhanced edition games, but a quick list of what stuck in my mind:
* A new rendering mode that creates solid outlines around creatures, making it easier to see what's going on (can be turned off)
* A healthbar placed over characters that better represents their status (can be turned off)
* Two new difficulties - a brutal Legacy of Bhaal mode and a casual "Story" mode.
* A new configurable AI system.
* A feature where you can put your mouse over a portrait and the related character glows blue on the field.
* A new kit, the Shaman. A divine spontaneous caster that also has a dance where you can't move or act, but you summon a continuous stream of spirits and elementals that fight for you.

The game has its flaws, but it's definitely not "a lame IWD clone".

Spore

2018-06-14, 01:43 PM

I am so much of a fanboy of Jim Cummings that I think mentioning him is enough to look into the game :smallamused:

Calemyr

2018-06-15, 12:23 PM

I am so much of a fanboy of Jim Cummings that I think mentioning him is enough to look into the game :smallamused:

Well, Minsc and Dynaheir are available to be recruited right away. Well, kinda. The first dungeon uses your BG1 party (or a random party if you're starting a new game). Imoen is replaced by Safana if she was in your BG1 party, as she's currently studying to be a mage, though. After which the story starts for real, and the Rashemani duo can be recruited by going to the inn. I focused on new characters (Glint, M'khiin, Corwin, Volghiln) and EE regulars (Rasaad and Neera) when I played, but I really should go through it again and use some of the old guard.

The biggest obstacle, to my mind, is the lack of thieves. You've got only two options: Safana and Glint. I definitely preferred Glint, because Safana was pretty butchered in the game. In BG1, she was portrayed as a playful, flirty femme fatale that enjoyed manipulating men into doing what she wanted them to do. Apparently Coran was all it took to ruin that. She's now quite bitter and has a bit of a chip on her shoulder against the male gender, which is weird because she's still a romance option. Short version is that she's not fun in this game - her playful attitude is lost and not replaced with anything interesting. Glint, on the other hand, is a lot of fun. A gnome cleric-thief with curious mind, an adventurous spirit, and a good attitude. He's also a gay option, if you're into that, but he doesn't make a big deal of it. And that's it. No Imoen, no Montaron, no Alora, no Coran (he makes a cameo but doesn't join), no Tiax (again, has a cameo), and no Shar'teel for the dual-class.

So, unless you want to play a thief (kit, dual-class, or multi-class), your choices are Safana and Glint.

Also, they couldn't find the voice actress for Jaheira (in the English dub, at least), nor could they find a reasonable impersonation, so Jaheira is uniquely the only companion you can have whose lines aren't voiced. Which is a shame. Khalid, on the other hand, is pretty awesome and the two aren't a bound couple like in BG1 - you can have one or the other or both.

One thing I don't particularly like about the game is that, if you romance either Safana or Volghiln, they will cheat on you with each other. It's possible to forgive Volghiln, but Safana wants nothing to do with you after it comes to light. Which makes sense, I guess. You're going to either watch her die or kill her in BG2, so it couldn't be left open, but still... I have no interested in a romance that ends like that.

It isn't helped that Volghiln isn't very interesting. He's a Norse-ish bard (a skald), with a lot of strength and a mind set on wine and women, with songs being a distant third. Most of his content was cut for time, so he's pretty much a cardboard cutout there to serve as your (very) spoony bard for the evening. A skald can be handy, especially paired with a shaman like M'khiin, but as a character he brings little to the table beyond (admittedly) the humor of watching him hit on every female in your party and getting shut down hard.

Khay

2018-06-16, 09:12 AM

I swear, someone has to talk about his bloody game, and better you than me. Besides which, the perspective of someone seeing events for the first time would be particularly cool.

It could be nice as a palate cleanser. I'll have to give it some thought. (You could always do your own LP, though! I'd definitely follow the thread.)

We are approaching the final act. There are three chapters left, including Chapter Twenty-Five. Elf city has been saved, but this was always about Irenicus. Let's see what he still has in store for us.

... for real this time. Sorry for the false advertising last week.

We do, in fact, open up by checking on Irenicus.

Irenicus appeared in the center of Suldanessellar in the guise of an elf. Any number of the mages running all around him in a panic to aid in the recovery of survivors could have identified the disguise with a word and the wave of a finger or two. (...)
Her reached out with his left hand, and the tips of his fingers brushed the warm bark of the Tree of Life.
His arm quivered with the power pulsing through it and into Irenicus's heart. "Forever," Irenicus said, "Forever. Forever. Forever..."

This implies that the whole Ravager thing was, in fact, not particularly important. He just wanted to cause chaos so he could walk up to the Tree and start draining it. I wonder why he'd choose such a convoluted process, but I guess that's magethought for ya.

Back in Myth Rhynn, Ellesime has a bad case of tree empathy. Trempathy. She's in pain, okay.

The sound Queen Ellesime made was worse than any scream Abdel had ever heard. It was the kind of tortured wail that could only be made by someone who'd lived long enough to understand the true significance of what was happening to her.
"The Tree," she coughed. "Irenicus ... is at the Tree of Life!" (...)
"It's the Slayer," Ellesime gasped. "I can ... feel it..." Her face twisted into a mask of revulsion so intense Abdel had to look away.

Okay, but the Slayer isn't actually at the Tree...? We saw it jump away. I guess Ellesime can be in pain about several things at once.

Abdel stepped to her and took Ellesime's face in his huge, rough hands. Her eyes rolled into her head, and Abdel felt a stern hand grip his arm.
"What are you doing?" Elhan demanded. "She is in pain. Release her!"
Abdel brushed him off and said harshly, "Ellesime! Ellesime, look at me."
The queen sobbed and closed her eyes, trying to shake her head out of Abdel's hands. "He will live forever now. He will be like you are."
"Ellesime!" Abdel roared.
Elhan stepped back and drew his moonblade. "Unhand—"
"No!" Ellesime said, her eyes popping open to fix on Abdel's. "The link has been made. Irenicus is feeding from the Tree of Life!"

... hmm. "He will be like you are." I wonder if this was what originally set Joneleth down the path that ended with him becoming Irenicus. If Ellesime gets to live forever, why should Joneleth - gifted, supremely powerful Joneleth - have to die? We never really learn a whole lot about Joneleth's initial motivations, but this would make sense.

Abdel grabs Ellesime and slaps some sense into her. Well, it's more of a squeezing motion, but you get the idea. Elhan watches in horror, but doesn't intervene. For some reason, this works.

"The Rynn Lanthorn..." she said, her voice barely audible, squeaking pain and sorrow now mingling with hope.
"The lanthorn will kill the Slayer?" Jaheira asked, standing.
"Breaking the link with Irenicus and the tree will make it mortal. It will not kill it, but it will make it possible to kill it," Ellesime answered.
Abdel let his hands fall from her face, and she looked down and away.
"Mages," Elhan barked, "we will prepare the lanthorn— gather yourselves."

So I guess the Slayer is currently immortal...? That would have been nice to actually see. Like, maybe a throwaway line about an arrow pinging off its armour, or something. And for some reason the Slayer is the main problem now, not the fact that Irenicus is eating the tree? The threat is seriously not handled right.

Abdel explains that he can't kill Imoen. Elhan complains about this, but the squeaky-voiced elf queen can offer a way out.

"The link I shared with Irenicus was transferred from him to the Slayer the moment he made contact with the Tree of Life. He's bonded with it now and has set the Slayer out along that link to find me," the queen said. "This link ... it could be transferred from me to ... to you." (...)
"If the link between her soul and yours is strong enough," Ellesime said, "it's possible that you could destroy the Slayer but anchor Imoen's soul to this plane. The avatar would return to the hell that spawned it, and Imoen would be free."
"Or?" Abdel asked.
"Or," the queen sighed, "it will kill you both."

We both know that won't happen. Don't get my hopes up, Ellesime.

Elhan is happy to agree with any plan that results in less Slayers rampaging around his backyard. Jaheira asks if Ellesime is sure this'll work, but the queen just shakes her head. Abdel is determined to go through with this.

"If I let Imoen die," Abdel asked Jaheira, "let her soul follow this monster's into Gehenna, what have you taught me? Where have I come?"
Jaheira couldn't answer. She knew there was no way to stop him, that she shouldn't even try.
He reached out and touched her cheek. "Maybe I was hypnotized," he told her softly. "I would have to have been."
She smiled and let herself cry.

No. No. I refuse to think any further about whether it was actually consensual or not. I am done with this subplot. ("But Khay, don't you want to talk about how ridiculous that is to bring up now?" No. I am washing my hands of it. "But there are all sorts of cultural implications in-" Nope.)

Elhan points out that this is nice and all, but there's demons that need to be handled. Jaheira asks to come along, but, well, we know that's not how this book works. Elhan suggests that she should go help with the cleanup in downtown Suldanessellar or something.

Elhan helped Ellesime to her feet. Abdel, his eyes still locked on Jaheira's, stepped next to them, and in a flash of purple light, they were gone.

* * * * *

We skip forward in time a little. This is another relatively long chapter, covering pages 219 to 231 in the paperback. (Shout-out to Thriftbooks.) It could have easily been split in half, probably about here, but it wasn't. The chapter divisions seem quite arbitrary.

During the time skip, the elves have built a little magic circle.

Ellesime had placed it on the rough ground in the center of a ring of standing stones, which might have been the columns of a once-mighty temple, now worn by years of lashing wind in to featureless stubs of their former glory.
The elf mages sat themselves in a wide circle around the lanthorn, contorting their legs in a way that confounded Abdel.

Our hero, apparently, still struggles to understand the concept of "sitting."

Abdel puts his hand on the Lanthorn, and the elves begin chanting. Abdel looks around for Ellesime, but she's comatose.

Elhan was stalking around the circle of mages, trying to look everywhere at once but never managing to keep his eyes from straying to his dying sister.
The Slayer dropped out of the sky five paces in front of Elhan, and the movement startled him. Elhan's hand went instinctively, to the moonblade at his belt, and the ancient sword came out of its scabbard and bathed the circle in a blue glow. The Slayer brought its hands up. Two daggers carved from bone seemed to appear in its hands from thin air.

Oh. I guess we're not doing the whole ritual thing after all.

I have to confess I'm not quite sure how the Slayer works. It seems to be based on horror movie logic, where the monster can just... teleport to where the protagonists are. When we last saw it, it was jumping towards Myth Rhynn, because Irenicus sensed that Ellesime was there. I guess Irenicus can steer it remotely?

Elhan draws his sword and charges. Abdel starts to follow suit, but Ellesime holds him back, telling him to wait for the ritual to finish.

Elhan was a practiced and experienced swordsman, and though the Slayer was faster, the elf managed to swing under its two daggers and sliced hard across the thing's spine-covered chest. (...)
Elhan gasped, never having seen his ancestral weapon fail to cut. The Slayer laughed at him. (...)
Abdel's eyes began to glow yellow. This was no momentary flash now, but a steady, burning light. "Everyone's here," the evil thing said. "Your souls will suckle the legions of Gehenna."

Pro tip: There are certain words you want to avoid when making a threat. "Suckle" is one of them. It just sounds silly. (I also recommend avoiding "flap" and "detestable.")

Elhan continues maneuvering himself between the Slayer and the mages, slashing and dodging to keep it occupied. It buys the ritual some time, but it ultimately isn't enough.

Moving with such unnatural silence it seemed the thing wasn't even there at all, the avatar sliced in with its other blade-arm and opened a gash across Elhan's stomach wide and deep enough to spill the prince's entrails onto the dead soil of Myth Rhynn.
Ellesime closed her eyes and let out a long, shuddering breath.
When the Slayer laughed as Elhan's body fell lifeless to the ground, Abdel heard it in his ears, but also felt it in his chest. The muscles that he would have used to laugh himself twitched and jerked, and air caught in his throat. He could feel it!

Elhan dies over the course of a run-on sentence. Abdel's body starts twitching and jerking, moving in unison with the Slayer, but Ellesime again reminds him to keep his hand on the Lanthorn.

With the elf out of the way, the Slayer moves in on the sitting and chanting mages. You know what would be useful right now? A goddamn druid who can summon meat shields.

The elf had no idea what was coming fast behind him, and Abdel knew he couldn't take his hand off the lanthorn, but he could at least warn—what was this elf s name? "Elf!" Abdel shouted, then, "Mage!" The elf mage didn't show any sign of having heard him.

Getting some echoes of Wizard Guy (http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Wizard_Guy) here.

The Slayer stabs the elf mage to death, drains his blood and organs, then makes daggers out of his bones. It's pretty gruesome. Good thing you left Jaheira behind again, Abdel.

Abdel cursed under his breath, struggling to make himself stay where he was.
The elf mage's body twitched violently once, then exploded in a shower of blood and strips of flesh. (...)
The fragments coalesced, joined the dance of the six daggers, and settled in front of the Slayer. The avatar stood now behind a shield of whirring, razor-sharp bone fragments. Anyone who stepped too close to the creature would be shredded.

Traditionally, the hero would intervene in this sort of thing against the counsel of the elf queen. It turns out to be fine, though - the Slayer took too much time playing with its food, and the ritual ends.

"Go!" Ellesime screamed, and Abdel jumped into the air, Yoshimo's sword in his right hand, before that single word had faded into the suddenly silent air.
Their chant at an end, the elf mages all came out of it at the same time and moved quickly away from the Slayer and its barrier of jagged bone. Abdel went the other way, straight at the whirling cloud of blades.

Two mages drag Ellesime out of the clearing. Abdel charges into the blade barrier without fear, able to track the flight paths of the bone fragments. He slaps them with his sword, and they drop to the ground. (I guess that's how soul links work.) The Slayer politely waits until the barrier is disassembled before attacking.

Abdel stepped in quickly, but the Slayer, waiting behind the dwindling shield of bone blades, was faster. The thing ripped a deep gash across Abdel's chest with one of its blade-arms.
Abdel hissed at the pain but ignored it, dropping his sword arm down to parry the second blade arm's attack.
"I'll eat your soul raw, son of Bhaal!" the thing shrieked at him.

You really need to work on your taunts, Imoen. Now I'm just wondering if you can cook souls. Maybe serve it with some fava beans and a nice chianti.

Abdel stepped back, letting the Slayer come in at him, then sliced hard both in and down. The sword took one of the Slayer's blade-arms off at the elbow joint, and the creature recoiled in shock. (...)
The avatar wrenched Abdel's arm with the strength of a thousand draft horses. His right arm came off at the shoulder with the sound of tearing skin, popping joints, and the hot rush of blood. One of the elf mages screamed, and another turned around and threw up.

It's a dismemberment party! One of the worst kinds of party. I don't recommend it.

So, yeah, Abdel loses his sword arm and his sword, but it's no big deal. The wound barely bleeds at all, and the loss of a limb doesn't actually weaken Abdel.

He pulled hard on the Slayer's arm, and it jerked toward him. Abdel dropped, took note of the Slayer's surprised, offended expression, and flipped the avatar over him. The creature sprawled across the uneven ground, scuttling to its feet like a crab.
Abdel grabbed his still twitching arm that bled into the ground of Myth Rhynn and was happy to feel its warmth. He jammed the torn end of it onto the ragged stump of his shoulder. A wave of tingling pleasure swept through him, and the arm reattached itself.

This, I think, is my main issue with Abdel's regeneration. Abdel suffers injuries, but at their worst, they almost inconvenience him. At least this fight would look cool when animated. (Waiting for the comedy moment where Abdel attaches the wrong limb.)

Anyway, Abdel is done with this boss fight and rips the Slayer's heart out.

He scanned the ground for the sword, but the Slayer was coming in too fast. Without ever having thought to do something like this before, he plunged his hand into the beast's wide, spike-covered chest. Abdel's hand sank into the Slayer's body up to the elbow, and the thing screamed in rage.
Abdel knew on some level that was either beyond or not yet at the point of words that if he turned his wrist just so—there! He closed his hand around something warm, soft, and fleshy, and pulled.

Except... psyche! It's not a heart at all.

Abdel was holding a length of pink flesh. At the end of it was a hand. A hand with five fingers, no claws, no spikes, no chitin. Green blood followed Abdel's hand out. He was holding a human arm.
"She's mine!" the Slayer shrieked.

So... this is Imoen. Imoen is inside the Slayer, which was inside the Ravager. It's like a Russian nesting doll of Bhaalspawn.

This fight is really the ultimate escalation of ridiculousness. If Bhaal Must Be Stopped! was meant to be a grim Conan-esque novel, where fights are swift and brutal and injuries have actual consequences, then Bhaal is Dead! throws all of that out of the window. This series has some real problems with tonal consistency.

Imoen starts pulling herself out of the Slayer's chest. Abdel grabs the Slayer's head and starts squeezing, hoping to finish this, and the Slayer does the same. Abdel's skull starts to crack and his teeth shatter, but... come on, this is Abdel. We all know how this is going to go.

There was a loud, grinding crack, and Abdel thought he might be dead, but it was the Slayer who went limp. The sudden weight pulled Abdel to the ground on top of it. The human arm still protruding from its chest blindly groped for anything. The hand found Abdel's gore-soaked chain mail and hung on.

Abdel flips over the corpse and rips off its head, revealing Imoen's face. I hope she won't be mad that he ruined her fursuit. Bugsuit. Whatever.

"Abdel," Imoen gasped, her eyes not yet able to focus, but she recognized his voice. "Abdel... wh-where are we?"
Abdel smiled weakly and was about to reply when Ellesime screamed, "The tree!"

The- oh, right. I knew we were forgetting about something. Darn.

"Oh, no, Abdel!" Imoen shrieked. "No!"
Abdel felt something pull him downward but couldn't tell where it was holding him. It wasn't his leg — it might have been holding him around the waist. He slipped into the ground and could smell dirt fill his nostrils. His arms tensed, and he could feel them grow. A wave of rage blew his mind away.

Haha oops.

Last time, we finally met Lady Ellesime for real. She's been present in the plot for a very long time (http://i.imgur.com/pOUkgHD.png), but we finally met her in the flesh. She has been caged by Irenicus, who is currently in the process of draining the Tree of Life.

https://s8.postimg.cc/z5b152bv9/9z_EJWO1.png (https://postimg.cc/image/6fo58f7v5/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/9zEJWO1)

He's actually present on the map, but he's invulnerable and can't be interacted with. If we want to save the tree - and make Irenicus vulnerable again - we have to kill three magical parasites. Ideally before Mr. Buttflap ascends to godhood. So let's get to work.

https://s8.postimg.cc/wnz9xszol/l_TTRJel.png (https://postimg.cc/image/th4qe6f8h/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/lTTRJel)

Most large enemies (like dragons) are actually 3D renders, but the parasites are part of the hand-painted map background. They work more like environment objects (https://i.imgur.com/X6CKUtT.png) than enemies. The visual effect is quite interesting; they look rather unlike anything else in this game. This trick is only possible because they don't move much.

https://s8.postimg.cc/gpqk7od6d/Sq_Qxi_UGg.png (https://postimg.cc/image/gcz61huwh/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/SqQxiUGg)

Interacting with the parasites causes them to summon guardians. There are three parasites, so all three alchemical elements are represented: Fire, Wind and Earth. That's all of them.

https://s8.postimg.cc/gpqk7okw5/m9rk3v_H.png (https://postimg.cc/image/62wr29cqp/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/m9rk3vH)

Once the elementals are dead, you can finish off the parasite and receive a modest amount of EXP.

https://s8.postimg.cc/s235ph1at/IBe_DVn_V.png (https://postimg.cc/image/3yce16itt/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/IBeDVnV)

This area is good at feeling like a navigation puzzle without actually being one. Some of the branches are nominally dead ends, but if you have the nuts from the tree in the palace, new pathways open up. The walkable areas are wider than they look, too.

This is so much better than the stupid Thieves' Maze. (http://i.imgur.com/PT7F8xM.png) It's more visually impressive, too. The Infinity Engine is mostly good at small closed areas and... well, dungeons. This still functions exactly like a dungeon with irregular corridors, but it looks much more open. It's also pretty easy and straightforward, so this is kind of an opportunity to catch your breath before the big final boss fight.

https://s8.postimg.cc/ng71h4nhh/H0_NLhur.png (https://postimg.cc/image/5ddypwrmp/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/H0NLhur)

The second parasite dies at our hands. I do like what they tried to do with the background, but I feel like the saturation and contrast are a bit too high. Eh. It looks better in the game, the screenshots are a bit static.

https://s8.postimg.cc/5q5cw3hmd/zv_Ppy66.png (https://postimg.cc/image/j72beyrxt/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/zvPpy66)

Ellesime checks in with you at this point, asking you to hurry. We're going as fast as we can, lady.

https://s8.postimg.cc/gpqk7pfr9/u_MMRo_Kf.png (https://postimg.cc/image/t4dc8179d/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/uMMRoKf)

Killing the final parasite is, at last, the point of no return. If there's anything you want to do, you have to do it now. I recommend pre-casting your buffs and possibly dropping a few summons around Irenicus - the instant the parasite goes down, you are teleported to Ellesime.

https://s8.postimg.cc/gcz61j579/Xgi_Cnl_H.png (https://postimg.cc/image/i4s4wfok1/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/XgiCnlH)

I dare! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_Abuse_Resistance_Education#/media/File:Logo_of_Drug_Abuse_Resistance_Education_(DARE ).png) Oh, you were probably talking about something else.

:xykon: IRENICUS: What... who... WHO DARES!
:roy: CHARNAME: You had to know I wouldn't let you get away.
:xykon: IRENICUS: You... you live *yet*?! You have less than a fraction of your soul and yet somehow you *continue* to oppose me?
:xykon: IRENICUS: The power... the power of the Tree is gone from me. You have been successful in your little scheme, insect, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZM4up0sWJI) but now this ends!
:xykon: IRENICUS: I will take great pleasure in eradicating such a nuisance as you. And then I shall... re-establish my link, join with the Tree once again... I shall find a way, I shall *have* the power --
:vaarsuvius: ELLESIME: No, Joneleth. You shall not.

It takes a lot to throw Irenicus off once he starts ranting. This does it.

https://s8.postimg.cc/8wzwfqp7p/Cjg1_S4_R.png (https://postimg.cc/image/5q5cw44rl/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/Cjg1S4R)

Irenicus seems to notice her presence for the first time.

IRENICUS: Who...? Ellesime?
:vaarsuvius: ELLESIME: Yes, it is I, your Queen. Twice, now, you have attempted this sacrilege and nearly destroyed us all. You will not do this again, Joneleth.
:xykon: IRENICUS: Do not call me that! I lost all right to that name when the Seldarine stripped me of everything that was elven, as you well know!!
:vaarsuvius: ELLESIME: And what shall I call you instead? 'Irenicus'? 'Shattered One'? Yes... it was a terrible punishment. But you violated everything we hold dear. You nearly destroyed us all!
:xykon: IRENICUS: And for what? Power? Is that all that you exist for now, Jon?
:vaarsuvius: ELLESIME: It is all I have now, Ellesime. There is nothing else beyond my revenge. Revenge for what you did to me, what the Seldarine did to me!
:xykon: IRENICUS: And your revenge has poisoned your heart. The Tree touched you once, long ago. Do you remember nothing of it? Is there nothing in your heart that remembers love?
:vaarsuvius: ELLESIME: Is there nothing within you that remembers *our* love? What we once shared before this obsession doomed you?
:xykon: IRENICUS: I...

https://s8.postimg.cc/9mios3xh1/z1_FNt_Lz.png (https://postimg.cc/image/lbmog2ofl/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/z1FNtLz)

Harsh. This must've been one hell of a break-up.

:xykon: IRENICUS: I do not remember your love, Ellesime. I have tried to. I have tried to recreate it, to spark it anew in my memory. But it is gone... a hollow, dead thing.
:xykon: IRENICUS: For years, I clung to the memory of it. Then the memory of the memory. And then nothing. The Seldarine took that from me, too.
:xykon: IRENICUS: I look upon you and I feel nothing. I remember nothing but you turning your back on me, along with all the others.
:xykon: IRENICUS: Once my thirst for power was everything. And now I hunger only for revenge. And... I... WILL... HAVE IT!!
:vaarsuvius: ELLESIME: Then I pity you. Would that you had used your stolen mortal years to *earn* your return to this sacred place.
:vaarsuvius: ELLESIME: I could have loved you anew, as I loved the man you once were. But I see nothing of him here. You are Irenicus. And all that awaits you now is death.
:xykon: IRENICUS: We shall see, my former love. We shall see.

Journal entry:
Freeing Queen Ellesime

I killed the parasites Irenicus was using to drain the Tree of Life, and I freed Queen Ellesime from her cage. She then severed Irenicus' connection to the Tree, a disorientating process that may have weakened him. Ellesime has disappeared, perhaps to get reinforcements, leaving me with my only chance to gain revenge for everything Irenicus has stolen from me!

CHARNAME scribbles down a few notes while the two lovers argue over their relationship. This little exchange comes up a lot when discussing Irenicus' character, and it's not hard to see why.

Sarevok has always been an Nietzschean overman. Above all, a living thing wants to discharge its strength — life itself is will to power. This world is the will to power—and nothing besides! And you yourselves are also this will to power—and nothing besides!

Irenicus may have been... different, once. His love for Ellesime may have been genuine, although he still chose power over love. But now, the love is gone. It's been burned out of him. The will to power is all that is left.

https://s8.postimg.cc/v8xp953r9/9_Atdo_Zv.png (https://postimg.cc/image/kyva9wdvl/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/9AtdoZv)

This was only ever going to end in violence.

:xykon: IRENICUS: So she goes to rouse Elhan and the others while I am still weak. So be it, I shall crush them all, if need be. I retain your power, yet, <CHARNAME>.
:xykon: IRENICUS: Your soul still courses through me. Come and make your attempt to reclaim it, if you like. I have power enough to deal with you!
:miko: JAHEIRA: Your soul is borrowed, and it shall be returned. You are a blight upon nature and you shall be destroyed!!
:thog: MINSC: For Dynaheir and all fallen comrades, for what is good and right, for all these things shall Minsc and Boo fall upon you today!! And we shall taste victory, evil man!!
:haley: IMOEN: We're going to take back <CHARNAME>'s soul if we have to rip it out of your chest, Irenicus! And you are going to Hell... WHERE YOU BELONG!!

Enough talk.

https://s8.postimg.cc/b1k9gudzp/z_IVy_ZQR.png (https://postimg.cc/image/jjtpl6ki9/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/zIVyZQR)

Bring it, ears.

https://s8.postimg.cc/rckdd65x1/q_E2j_Cy_B.png (https://postimg.cc/image/uw6b2z8mp/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/qE2jCyB)

Ears does indeed bring it. Irenicus is an epic-level sorcerer, so this is the caster fight to end all caster fights. I hope you've been paying attention during the previous caster fights, because this is the final exam.

The basic rhythm has been the same since Tarnesh (http://i.imgur.com/4yKiTKp.png): Mages open with a defensive spell, then start tearing your party apart. Of course, Tarnesh had to make do with Mirror Image and Fear, while Irenicus has Complete Immunity and Time Stop.

https://s8.postimg.cc/5q5cw5ms5/7_Lu6_Vag.png (https://postimg.cc/image/756xkvnv5/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/7Lu6Vag)

So here's how this fight works:

1.) Take down his invisibility with True Seeing so you can target him.
2.) Cast Pierce Magic until it punches through his wards.
3.) Cast Breach to remove his defense spells.
4.) Get 1 (one) hit in.
5.) Repeat 1 through 5 until he runs out of Contingencies and Spell Triggers.

https://s8.postimg.cc/d64mhyi79/vc_Y6_QRL.png (https://postimg.cc/image/756xkvvkx/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/vcY6QRL)

6.) Kill his face.

:xykon: IRENICUS: I... *you* k-killed me...
:xykon: IRENICUS: T-this is not... this... is not...

https://s8.postimg.cc/6fo58j2r9/Lx5_Fse5.png (https://postimg.cc/image/exxlcv99t/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/Lx5Fse5)

7.) Victory.

:mitd: NARRATOR: Irenicus crumples, his words dying on his lips, and a strange quiet envelopes the scene. You begin to wonder if you have finally won, if it is all truly over.
:thog: MINSC: The evil wizard is dead! Once again Boo and Minsc and <CHARNAME> emerge as victorious heroes! Much rejoicing and celebrating must be commencing soon!
:miko: JAHEIRA: A bitter end to a terrible man. We did well, I think, but I am not certain that all has been restored to as it was. <CHARNAME>? Do you feel any different?
:amused: VICONIA: The mage was a fool to believe himself so powerful. Now he is dead, as fools usually become. But... what of you, <CHARNAME>? Have you recovered what you lost?
:eek. AERIE: So... so it's over. Just like that. It's odd... I thought things would be different, somehow, that it wouldn't be so... so easy. I don't know.
:haley: IMOEN: It... it's finally over, then. All those terrible things he did to us, and it's finally over. Or... or is it? <CHARNAME>, something's not right...
:mitd: NARRATOR: If this is victory, there is a question burning in the back of your mind: What about what he stole from you. What of your soul?

I... I think.

https://s8.postimg.cc/uw6b30b7p/Ez7_AUy_E.png (https://postimg.cc/image/ov8m5xold/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/Ez7AUyE)

I don't... feel so good.

:mitd: NARRATOR: You feel a small tug inside yourself, a pull that seems to come from the apparition that rose from Irenicus. It is gentle at first, but quickly becomes urgent.
:mitd: NARRATOR: Within seconds you cannot breathe, drawn inexorably to where Irenicus fell. You are still connected to your stolen soul, but it is no longer among the living.
:mitd: NARRATOR: Released in death, your stolen soul does not return to you. It is falling away from the mortal world, and you are being dragged along with it.

Oh.

https://s8.postimg.cc/o5pttkvrp/PNkdrv6.png (https://postimg.cc/image/5q5cw6hn5/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/PNkdrv6)

Oh. Oh no.

https://s8.postimg.cc/oih7zrlr9/74ff1wu.png (https://postimg.cc/image/bebnn2tpd/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/74ff1wu)

God dangit. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oT4bikoVuY)

I... don't have much to say about this chapter. The plots of game and book diverged significantly by Chapter Twenty-Four, but they converge again at the very end of Chapter Twenty-Five. They converge in a very strange way, and that sounds interesting, but we won't actually see the consequences of this until Chapter Twenty-Six.

I wrote the last three updates more or less at the same time, and the interesting material is really in the next two chapters. So I don't have a lot of material today. Sorry! I can always drop some general-purpose snark, but that's what the Let's Read section is for.

Uhm... I guess the Abdel vs. Slayer fight is pretty intense? It doesn't really advance the plot all that much, but at least it's a fairly exciting read. Athans is genuinely quite decent at writing body horror and gore. It's ridiculous, of course, but it's the right kind of ridiculous. The nesting doll of demons, the green and yellow blood, the dismemberment, Abdel regrowing his arm mid-combat... the whole thing is so over-the-top that it actually works quite well. The plot doesn't, but at this point, I'll take what I can get. Of course Abdel is going solo again, and I'm quite done with that, but I guess the party can't be expected to contribute in every combat. If we have to have a fight in every chapter, then some variety would've been nice, but I guess you can't go wrong with screaming punching dismemberment.

... yeah, I got nothing. Sorry. The text walls will be back next week. Think of this as taking a nice deep breath and steadying yourself before jumping into the pool.

As for AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION... well, we just saw a super-elaborate casterfight. We've talked about the villains we like, but how about the fights we like? Which combat encounter (or set of encounters) is your favourite, and why?

I think my favorite fight is the one against Zhalimar Cloudwulfe (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22107076&postcount=151), as representative of the stretch of gamplay that happens after the Cloakwood but before the return to Candlekeep. It's a massive difficulty spike, so you have to break out some real tactics (or at least novel kinds of cheese), but it's also relatively fair. This happens at a relatively low level (I think my party was level 5-6), so you have to be smart about using your resources. Every wand, every scroll and every spell slot matters here.
I've been cruising through Shadows of Amn basically without using scrolls, potions or wands, and I rarely exhaust my spell slots anymore. You really can't get away with that in the original Baldur's Gate. At the same time, the game usually doesn't cheat, which will become a real problem in Throne of Bhaal. (Rahvin (http://i.imgur.com/1X73228.png) earns an honorable mention, but that fight is more like a puzzle than anything else.)

That said, Shadows of Amn does have its charms. Baldur's Gate may have my single favourite fight, but the average fight in SoA is so much better than the average fight in Baldur's Gate. Just about all the boss battles in SoA are perfectly decent, and all three fights against Irenicus are quite memorable. The dragons, too, deserve a shout-out.

How about you? Any favourites? Or least favourites, for that matter?

Spore

2018-06-16, 10:33 AM

I think fights against groups of more powerful NPCs are among my favorites. You don't need to punch through a gazillion magic defenses like in caster fights. And you don't have to fight giant hideous monsters with 1-2 annoying gimmicks (I am looking at you, stunning ghouls and regenerating trolls).

The Glyphstone

2018-06-16, 11:44 AM

Why is the Planetar so horribly rendered compared to all the other sprites?

Keltest

2018-06-16, 12:03 PM

Why is the Planetar so horribly rendered compared to all the other sprites?

Planetars don't have the authority to sign off on high-res models. Gotta go up higher in the chain for those, and nobody got time for that.

Mordokai

2018-06-16, 12:59 PM

I'm interested in seeing how you'll have Abdel solve the Hell tests :smallsmile:

Kish

2018-06-16, 02:02 PM

At this rate, I'll be surprised if CHARNAME doesn't do them all the Good way and stay Good.

Irenicus at the Tree of Life is unfortunately not prepared for high level abilities. You could have simply moved off-screen and let a single planetar or deva beat him up.

Calemyr

2018-06-17, 03:01 PM

It could be nice as a palate cleanser. I'll have to give it some thought. (You could always do your own LP, though! I'd definitely follow the thread.)

I'm conflicted. Besides not wanting to steal your thunder, we offer very different things - I know a good deal about the EE features and SoD itself, while you'd provide a fresh perspective that would well serve an audience unfamiliar with the new game. That said, it's tempting and we could split ToB and SoD between us, seeing as SoD doesn't have a book to go with it.

If people are actually interested in me talking about SoD, I would ask you guys to help me with the toughest part of the game for me: picking who I'm playing, since I'll want to play through BG1 before I begin...

Abdel (LN Male Human Skald): My version of the "canon" main character. Not a powerful fighter in his own right, but a natural leader whose support makes his team much more effective. Primary party could be Minsc, Dynaheir, Glint, M'khiin, and Corwin.

Sienna (TN Female Human Dragon Disciple): "Our lady of hellfire." A girl entirely too at home with her fiendish heritage, who solves problems by reducing them to cinders. Primary party could be Safana, Edwin, Viconia, Dorn, and Volghiln.

Neithan (CG Male Human Berserker/Thief): An adventurer and historian, prone to guile and charm as his preferred weapons. Indiana Jones as a D&D character. Primary party could be Neera, Rasaad, Baeloth, Jaheira, and Khalid

Jean (NG Female Human Shaman): A fun loving girl whose dance can turn the spirit world into her own personal army. Voted least likely to take the game serious. Primary party could be Glint, Minsc, Dynaheir, Jaheira, and Khalid

Not everyone is available right up front, of course, so others will be in the party in the interim. If anyone is interested, I could add in mod companions, but that seems counter to this exercise. The options there are Aura the gnome artificer (thief) and Sirine the tiefling paladin.

Khay

2018-06-22, 11:08 AM

If people are actually interested in me talking about SoD, I would ask you guys to help me with the toughest part of the game for me: picking who I'm playing, since I'll want to play through BG1 before I begin...

I like Neithan, though that's mostly because I'm a sucker for the guile hero. All of them are fine choices, I think.

Hi guys! I have a thing tomorrow, so we're getting an early update.

Last time, the story's main threat was defeated. The world is saved... or is it? Well, no. There were some last-minute complications. Let's find out more in Chapter Twenty-Six.

The previous chapter ended with Abdel sinking into the ground. We are down two protagonists now, so it's back to Jaheira for this chapter.

Jaheira came awake with a gasp, her head snapping back, and her mouth gaping wide to draw in the unseasonably cool air of Suldanessellar. Her body, suspended in a mass of weblike strands, shook and rocked forward, then back, and came to a vibrating stop over the course of a long, painful minute. (...) Her one eye was blurred, but she saw Irenicus kneeling in front of the Tree of Life.

In case you were wondering how the cleanup operation went: Not well. Irenicus seems to have taken the remaining defenders out with a second-level spell. (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Web)

This is another significant divergence from the game. In Shadows of Amn, we stopped Irenicus just in time to save the Tree of Life. In Bhaal is Dead!... well...

The Tree of Life was on fire. That thought didn't sink in at first. (...)
Jaheira screamed.
She heard the sound echo across the burning ruins of Suldanessellar. Irenicus didn't react at all. He just kneeled there, chanting.

Good job stopping Irenicus, guys. Big round of applause for our heroes, good thing we didn't get a new evil god. That would've been pretty bad.

I don't really know how to explain what happens next. The section makes very little sense to me, so I'm just going to quote it in its entirety.

"Abdel," Irenicus said, his voice like the wind rumbling across the Shaar — the voice of a god. "Yes... Abdel."
Jaheira screamed again and tried to look away, but her head was stuck, and she couldn't.
Irenicus smiled a toothy, leering, evil grin, and sank into the ground. His body just collapsed into a hole that wasn't really there. The Tree of Life blazed into wild orange flames hundreds of feet high that scalded Jaheira's face, and she screamed again. The webs started to unravel from the heat, and Jaheira's foot shifted painfully, then her head fell sideways.

Why... does Irenicus sink into the ground, exactly? It seems like he chose to go after Abdel, but why would he do that? He won. The defenders are dead or dying, and the Tree of Life is quickly turning into ash. Abdel is out of the picture. There's no reason to go after him now, or at all. Is this another bit of questionable metaphysics I don't understand? This one's a head-scratcher.

Oh, right. Abdel is in Hell. Sorry, I should've started with that.

Abdel was blasted with heat, and it brought his consciousness back from the brink. (...)
Shadows coalesced in the orange and became figures, then those figures drifted into larger, more solid masses. The shadows were ledges and outcroppings of rock.
Abdel inhaled sharply and felt his jaw open. His mouth opened wrong, sideways, like the monster that Imoen had been before. Against all odds, he'd saved her life. Abdel remembered that clearly. It had happened a minute or so before he'd been pulled down into Hell.

It's a pretty traditional Hell, all lava and brimstone. The air around Abdel is burning, but it doesn't affect him. He calls out for Bhaal, and waits for an answer.

Jaheira, meanwhile, has managed to struggle out of the Web. She's not doing so great, though.

"Mielikki," she said, not caring that her voice was ragged from the heat, from crying. "Mielikki, sweet Lady of the Forest, please..."
She put both hands down on the dry grass and pushed herself up, rolling over onto her left side. Pain made her gasp, then gag, and she sat up.

The Tree of Life is burning brightly. The flames are quickly consuming the city, but it's a big tree. It'll remain standing for a while. Jaheira starts to pray for divine intervention... for the sake of Abdel, because she has her priorities straight.

"Mielikki," she whispered, and a tear rolled into her mouth. "Dear goddess, just tell me where he is. Where is he?"
Jaheira's hands shot up to guard her face, and she fell backward, the pain in her side not even registering. She was instinctively guarding her face from the vision that flashed across her eyes.
Orange flames. Boiling seas. Writhing bodies.

At least we know Mielikki is paying attention, I guess. Maybe ask for some rain instead? No? Alright. Cool. Let's see how Abdel is doing instead.

He was going to wait for his father to say something. (...)
Speak to me.
Tell me.
Where are you?
What do you want from me?
What do I do?
Do I become you? Do I replace you? Do I serve you? (...)
You'll talk to me, you bastard.
God of Murder.
Father.
Talk to me. (...)
And Abdel let himself drift in the lava flow of Hell and waited for his father's voice to tell him everything, to tell him what to do. He waited in the pits of damnation for a long time, but his father never spoke to him. "You're dead." Abdel said, and opened his eyes.

Well, yeah. Of course he's dead. It's right there in the title.

This section works better in the printed version. Each of Abdel's questions is on its own line, and they go on for a while. The linebreaks make it feel like some time passes after each statement, which I actually kinda like.

Back in the world of the living, Jaheira has decided to lie down and wallow in despair for a moment.

Irenicus had nearly killed her when she confronted him at the Tree of Life. (...) She fought back with spells of her own, and elves came to her defense, but Irenicus's supply of painful, body-twisting magic seemed endless. (...) She'd watched him suck the life energy out of the greatest source of life energy in the world, if not the entire multiverse.

It's not looking good for Suldanessellar. The flames seem to be collateral damage; the Tree has already been drained, so the damage is done. It's not dead yet, but it's burning to ash.

How are our heroes going to get out of this one? There's only one chapter left.

Then Irenicus went willingly down into some hell where Abdel waited — for what? Abdel surely hadn't gone there willingly. They wouldn't embrace there in brotherhood. They'd fight, and even as much as she loved and trusted and was in awe of the Son of Bhaal, Jaheira didn't think he could win. How could he?

Yeah, that's probably how.

Last time, we finally sent Jon Irenicus to Hell. Actual uppercase-h Hell. (Well, Gehenna.)

https://s8.postimg.cc/ykrep2vyd/8_HSifjx.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://imgur.com/8HSifjx)

Unfortunately, we came along for the ride.

:mitd: NARRATOR: The pain subsides, and you open your eyes to horror beyond imagining. It is an assault on your senses, a collection of nightmare sensations. This, surely, is Hell.
:mitd: NARRATOR: You slowly realize that you are not alone, that others were apparently so wounded in the battle with Irenicus that their souls were dragged to a similar fate as yours.
:mitd: NARRATOR: You doubt they will be pleased with their present circumstance, when you don't even know why you are here yourself.
:haley: IMOEN: I... I feel so strange. I felt myself coming apart, my essence... I don't know. And there was this pulling, this force, and... and I knew it was you. I had to come with you, I just knew I had to.
:haley: IMOEN: We're dead, aren't we? If I'm a Child of Bhaal, shouldn't I be... be gone, then? Just like Sarevok? Irenicus said I was different, but... I don't know. But I know I'll follow you wherever I can.
:haley: IMOEN: But... but why didn't I follow Bodhi into... into wherever she went when she died?
:haley: IMOEN: Unless it's because she was a vampire, with no soul of her own. She just... died, and there was only my own soul left? Or maybe it had something to do with your dying at the Tree of Life. I don't know.
:eek: AERIE: This... this place is terrible! I... I felt something pulling at me when I died, and I just knew it was you. I... I had to come. You may need my help, here...
:thog: MINSC: Oh, such a glorious death in battle for Minsc and Boo! We were well on our way to the great fields and halls of Rashemen, but we felt you needing us, so we came!
:amused: VICONIA: This is... most unusual. Death overwhelmed me in combat, and the darkness came over my senses. I felt a pulling, and followed it... and here we are. What place is this, I wonder?
:miko: JAHEIRA: It... it is not finished, is it? This is death... and your strange power has dragged me here with you. So be it, then. We stand together until the end.

Journal entry:
Chapter 7: Part 2

Irenicus had attempted to walk amongst the gods, taking the power of the elven Tree of Life for himself. I stopped him... and while he was still weakened from Queen Ellesime's severing of his connection to the Tree, I managed to kill him.

But it isn't over. He still has my soul, and perhaps that was reason enough for me to be dragged into hell after him. Perhaps it was the power of the Tree, or something else, I don't know. But I am in Hell, now, with one last chance to track down Irenicus and take my soul back.

Here it will have to end. One way or another.

Irenicus' death did not have the same effect as Bodhi's did, and my soul has not returned to me. Perhaps it was because of the power he gathered from the Tree of Life, or because Bodhi was undead. Regardless, Irenicus has fallen, dragging both my soul and myself inexorably behind. And such was the power that my party members that had fallen or were near death were drawn with us as well! Together we are in Hell, and I am certain Irenicus is somewhere near. Somehow, through all this, I feel I must find him and battle him once and for all to get my soul back.

Dear diary, today I woke up in Hell... my headcanon is that the chapter headings exist in-universe, because CHARNAME was raised by librarians. Our Bhaalspawn probably spent a good five minutes just staring at the page, trying to decide whether this warranted a new chapter.

Imoen raises some good points. I really don't know about the metaphysics involved in this, and I don't think the writers knew either. There won't really be a satisfying answer to this.

As before, every possible companion gets to say something here, talking about their death experience and how/why they followed you.

Unlike last time, this includes Yoshimo.

:cool: YOSHIMO: This... what place is this? I died, I am sure of it! But... did you bring us here, <CHARNAME>? Are things left unfinished with... with Irenicus? Still?

Yeah, I don't know either.

https://s8.postimg.cc/9eqgi92dx/v_TM1b_LS.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/vTM1bLS)

This door seems important, but there's no real way through it. This whole area has an eyes-and-teeth theme to it, which I guess makes sense for Hell. That moustache, though? No thank you.

https://s8.postimg.cc/6xepazq79/Nfty_Yn_Z.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/NftyYnZ)

Needless to say, you can't get back to the world map from here. Nothing to do but explore the area. There are five little side-areas, and you can do them in any order you choose. We'll start at the top left and go in counterclockwise order.

https://s8.postimg.cc/ah0n0t0mt/Tj_Fo_I5_Z.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/TjFoI5Z)

Speaking of questionable metaphysics...

:nale: SAREVOK: So we meet again. How fitting that our reunion should be in this place of retribution.
:roy: CHARNAME: Sarevok?!
:nale: SAREVOK: It is I. Or an echo, perhaps. My essence joined that of our dead father after you murdered me, after all... but in the end, all the Children of Bhaal end up here.
:nale: SAREVOK: You have finally joined us, to claim your heritage as I had attempted. A pity that you arrive in pieces, weak and pathetic. My death was far more final than yours.
:roy: CHARNAME: What are you talking about 'in pieces'?
:nale: SAREVOK: I speak of your soul, fool. You are just a part, not fully dead, so your essence has not joined our dead father. This is his realm, so your blood holds sway here.
:roy: CHARNAME: Holds sway? What are you speaking of?
:nale: SAREVOK: Your soul is tainted by the touch of our father, fool, and it is that part which rules over this realm. But you share your soul with another, don't you?
:nale: SAREVOK: The mage, he stole most of your soul, but not all. You are tethered like a helpless calf, dragged into hell after him. Neither of you is truly alive, or truly dead.
:roy: CHARNAME: Irenicus? Do you know where he is?
:nale: SAREVOK: Bah! Have you heard nothing? You have *power* here. Already you search, and already the mage obstructs you. The Tears of Bhaal are your only choice.
:roy: CHARNAME: The Tears of Bhaal?
:nale: SAREVOK: A tear fell for every murdered soul, every torment paid by our father, and he kept each one. They can show the path to your wizard... if you gather them all, that is.

Journal entry:
Finding Irenicus in Hell

The demon I encountered has explained much. This plane was once the realm controlled by Bhaal, and my heritage means that I hold a certain amount of power over it. So does Irenicus, however, since he remains in possession of most of my soul. I don't quite understand, but the great doorway in this place 'represents' the path to my own soul... the other piece that the mage holds. So long as Irenicus holds that piece, we are tethered... it is what drew me down here, and is the reason why neither of us is fully dead or alive.

By finding the Tears of Bhaal, I will be able to open the doorway and face Irenicus. And then, I suppose, I must take all of my soul back. What will happen then, I can only wonder.

The first demon you encounter always explains how this area works. (Note that the diary entry says "the demon" and not "Sarevok.") There are five Tears, guarded by five apparitions. We have to overcome the apparitions and recover the Tears, if we want to leave.

https://s8.postimg.cc/5v4isgmth/ZE0q_Nbh.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/ZE0qNbh)

In today's production of the Deadly Sins, the role of Wrath will be played by Sarevok.

The subquests all follow the same pattern. You are confronted by a demon, who attempts to get you to give into your darker impulses, and you have the choice of giving in or resisting. If you give in, you are given a boon of some kind, but there are... consequences. Refuse, and you make things harder for yourself.

The original idea behind this LR & LP was to keep game and book somewhat in sync, and I've done that whenever possible - for example, I sided with Bodhi, not the Shadow Thieves. However, CHARNAME!Abdel has kind of... diverged from Book!Abdel. (You may have noticed that I've been doing sidequests.) It hasn't been too relevant so far, but roleplaying choices are about to become extremely important in a short while. So how about a combined approach? I'll continue playing CHARNAME!Abdel, but I'll also briefly lay out my reasoning for what I think Book!Abdel would do. First of all, here's CHARNAME.

:nale: SAREVOK: I have one of the Tears of Bhaal you will need. I will not hand it over to you, however. You do not deserve it.
:roy: CHARNAME: You are in no position to place judgement on me, Sarevok.
:nale: SAREVOK: But I am. I am in an excellent position. Rule of this realm was rightfully mine, and had I spitted you on my blade as easily as that pathetic wizard, Gorion, our positions would be reversed now!
:roy: CHARNAME: You dare to speak of Gorion!
:nale: SAREVOK: Ahhhh, yes. Stoke that infernal wrath of yours. I can feel the anger within you, boiling like a pit of sulphur in the crevices of your heart.
:nale: SAREVOK: You feel it, do you not? The taint that surrounds your soul like a serpent, squeezing it, spreading its venom. That taint, that wrath, exists in all the Children of Bhaal... but few know how to use it.
:nale: SAREVOK: You have become the Slayer, have you not? The avatar of our dead father. The blackest expression of murder... I see it behind your eyes. Summon your wrath for me... if you can.
:roy: CHARNAME: Why?! What do you get out of this?!
:nale: SAREVOK: You are the one who brought me here. Your power over this place has summoned forth my essence once again. And why do you think you have done that?
:nale: SAREVOK: I can teach you how to use your wrath. You can control the taint, direct it, summon it at will! You can become the Slayer at will and become the weapon of murder that you were meant to be!
:nale: SAREVOK: So think of me! Think of how I destroyed your precious Gorion! How I plundered the lives of your Candlekeep! Summon your rage, stir the depths of your black heart!
:nale: SAREVOK: Summon wrath! Summon wrath and *become* it! Because if you cannot, then you are not worth your destiny! It should have been I! It should have been I! ATTACK ME, WORM, IF YOU DARE!!
:roy: CHARNAME: No! I won't do it! I don't need the taint and I won't use it!!
:nale: SAREVOK: THEN YOU WERE NEVER WORTHY OF BHAAL'S BLOOD AND I SHALL CRUSH YOU WHERE YOU STAND!!

Journal entry:
Finding Irenicus in Hell

I have encountered my 'half-brother' Sarevok, or at least his spirit, here in Hell. He offered to show me how to use my wrath to become the Slayer at will, the avatar form of Bhaal, but I don't know what the consequences of such a decision would be. I am not about to trust Sarevok, whether it was I who summoned him here or not. I refused, and he flew at me in a rage. I will not give in to whatever darkness my blood threatens to plunge me into, I won't!

Frankly, I'm not convinced that Book!Abdel would actually pass this test. Book!Abdel is a very wrathful person, he's defined by his inability to back down from a fight, and he has a very good reason to hate Sarevok in particular. He'd likely try to reject the Slayer, but he'd still attack Sarevok, I think. Not sure how that one works out. The dialogue is more about refusing the Slayer, less about pacifism.

Oh, speaking of the Slayer: It has suddenly become plot-relevant again. You may remember that it was kind of a big thing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?544430-Let-s-Read-amp-Play-Baldurs-Gate-II-Bhaal-is-Dead!&p=22888836&viewfull=1#post22888836) back in March. I used a Zalgo text converter and everything. After a few nightmares (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?544430-Let-s-Read-amp-Play-Baldurs-Gate-II-Bhaal-is-Dead!&p=22943457#post22943457), we acquired the ability to turn into the Slayer. I praised it at the time - it's presented like a powerup, recalling the magic powers we acquired in the first game, but it represents something incredibly bad for CHARNAME.

So what actually happens when you activate the ability? (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Slayer_Form) First of all, you get a dialogue prompt. Do you really want to turn into the Slayer? You'll gain power, the game informs you, at the cost of a small fraction of your self. If you agree, you lose 2 Reputation and turn into a demon.
This seems pretty great - it's a desparation power, right? An ever-present temptation, just lurking in your Special Abilities menu. You can win this combat right now, and the Reputation is easy to earn back, right? Just give in. What's the worst that could happen?
Unfortunately, the mechanics don't work quite right. You can't use magic while in Slayer form, so it's useless for spellcasters, and fighters won't actually gain much stopping power, so it's really not worth it. You start taking damage after a few rounds, so you can't use it for long either. (In fact, unless you're playing the Enhanced Edition or the Ascension mod, turning into the Slayer will probably make CHARNAME weaker. (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Slayer_Form?direction=next&oldid=38447))

he "boon" that Sarevok offers makes very little sense. We already had the ability to turn into the Slayer, we just haven't used it because it's not actually worthwhile. This makes me think that the Slayer had more of a presence in the game, but much of it was left on the cutting room floor.

Speaking of the floor: Sarevok was a good final boss, but that was ten levels ago.

https://s8.postimg.cc/jc1hbc4ut/mkea3gu.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/mkea3gu)

We sword him to death with relatively little trouble.

http://i.imgur.com/Liu7cZa.png
Screenshot (http://i.imgur.com/Liu7cZa)

A little corpse-looting later, we retrieve the Tear and return to the little hub area.

https://s8.postimg.cc/yxisvaoit/Ro_Vd_Ovz.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/RoVdOvz)

Using the tear on the door closes one of the eyes and yields a permanent character upgrade. For resisting our anger, we gain +1 WIS and +1 CHA. Giving in would have given us +2 STR. The evil rewards are generally superior to the good ones, though it's not universal. In this case, I'd rather have the STR boost, but so it goes.

https://s8.postimg.cc/tyvagrsfp/HZz_Wwdr.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/HZzWwdr)

The ssssecond test is overseen by a more... traditional demon. All the vices have voice acting, and their voices are all different. Greed's voice is harsh and low, almost growling at times. It's also using the "big red chap with wings" character model.

:roach: GREED: One of the Tearssss doessss lie near thisss very place. It isss in the possession of another, one with sssso much power. Sssso difficult to defeat, it isss.
:roach: GREED: But all thingss, even the powerful, can be overcome, yess? You have defeated many whossse claims of power were hollow. You tore them from their thronesss...
:roy: CHARNAME: What does that have to do with the Tear?
:roach: GREED: Ahhh, alwaysss you have used the right toolsss to defeat your foesss, yesss? And I am givingsss to you, now, the right tool to defeat thisss one.
:roach: GREED: Here it iss... gaze upon the sssword called 'Blackrazor'. Mosst powerful, it iss. And it iss the tool you needss to defeat the one who holdss the Tear.
:roach: GREED: It isss for you to decide, Child of Bhaal, how you usssse the tool you have. I leavesss you to your choice, then, young <PRO_LADYLORD> of thisss place...

Journal entry:
Finding Irenicus in Hell

A demon gave me a sword, 'Blackrazor', saying it is the only way to defeat a powerful creature who holds the Tear of Bhaal I seek.

Free loot! Blackrazor (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Blackrazor) is indeed one of the more powerful weapons in the game. The +3 enchantment bonus is a little anemic, but those abilities... gosh. This would make for a great off-hand weapon for CHARNAME.

Greed then vanishes, leaving us to deal with the creature in question.

https://s8.postimg.cc/wsyfu82bp/8_Ack_E6_Z.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/8AckE6Z)

Yeah, this doesn't look like a great place to spend eternity.

:frown: HELLGEN: I see the ruler of this small plane has come to me. Perhaps my eternal torment shall be relieved at long last! I can only hope.
:roy: CHARNAME: Are you the one who guards the Tear of Bhaal?
:frown: HELLGEN: I am, to my everlasting lament. It is my punishment that I hold the Tear of Bhaal, to remain evermore until certain... conditions are met. Only then may I be free.
:roy: CHARNAME: What conditions are those?
:frown: HELLGEN: I... cannot tell you directly, my <PRO_LADYLORD>. It is a condition of my punishment that I can only tell you of its nature in a riddle. Listen carefully:
:frown: HELLGEN: "Ye who hold the razor's blade / forged of darkest iron / quenched by blood and fear, / know that ye hold the key / to the one who guards / Bhaal's sacred murdered tear."
:roy: CHARNAME: So... let me get this straight. The sword Blackrazor is the key to getting the Tear of Bhaal from you?
:frown: HELLGEN: I cannot answer that, my <PRO_LADYLORD>.
:roy: CHARNAME: So the sword allows me to kill you, is that it? That would release you from your punishment?
:frown: HELLGEN: You do not need the sword, itself, to do that. The fact that you were given Blackrazor is enough, even if you possess it no longer. But, yes... that, too, would be a release.
:roy: CHARNAME: But I could give you the sword, as well, right? That would release you from guarding the Tear?
:frown: HELLGEN: It would, my <PRO_LADYLORD>.
:roy: CHARNAME: Take the sword, then. I have no need of it.
:frown: HELLGEN: I am most grateful to you, then, for my release. May the Heavens sing your praises for this charity you have shown me, my <PRO_LADYLORD>.

I like how the genie didn't even bother with a real riddle.

The good solution is to fork over the sword, the evil one is to fight and kill the genie. If you hand over Blackrazor, you get +2 to all saving throws. If you fight the genie, you can keep Blackrazor around, and you get +15 max HP as a free bonus. I think I prefer the evil bonus, but it's a little closer this time. By the time of ToB, you can't exactly rely on saving throws, but 15 HP isn't actually that much.

This would've been the first time I would've actually been able to use the Blackrazor. Ah well. We hand over the sword, and I think Book!Abdel would do the same. For all his faults, he hasn't been avaricious. (He might get stuck on the riddle for a while.)

https://s8.postimg.cc/ym1chyfmd/JNnb6_Tb.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/JNnb6Tb)

Next up is Selfish, which isn't traditionally one of the deadly vices. I guess Envy is a form of selfishness? The demon's voice is harsh and demanding, but not as distorted as Greed's.

:roach: SELFISH: Know you, Child, that there is a Tear of Bhaal in this place before us... yet there are two paths that lead to it. Two doors, two paths, yet both lead to your goal, yes?
:roach: SELFISH: You have made many choices on the journey that was your life. Many paths have you taken, and always they have had an effect on those around you... even when that was not your intention.
:roach: SELFISH: Such is the fate of those born with Destiny... the consequences of the actions they take ripple about them throughout all that is reality.
:roach: SELFISH: Perhaps the fate of others concerns you little. Perhaps it consumes your soul. That, too, is a choice... an action taken... a ripple set into the pond of reality.
:roy: CHARNAME: What does all this have to do with the Tear, then?
:roach: SELFISH: The path that you take to the Tear will affect another this day. Another who is innocent of the action you take, and yet affected by it just the same.
:roach: SELFISH: One of those who travels with you, who orbits your destiny and yet is innocent of your taint... will do nicely.
:roach: SELFISH: Remember, Child of Bhaal... a choice must be made, and you must live with the consequences of that choice. Go to my left and sacrifice for the innocent. Go to my right and save yourself.

Journal entry:
Finding Irenicus in Hell

I encountered a demon who told me that the two paths I see before me will both lead to the Tear of Bhaal... but that the path I take will affect another. It then stole away one of my companions. I suppose the path I take will have a bearing directly on my companion, and I will have to make a choice as to which way I go. But why? He says that the path to his left will require me to make a sacrifice for my companion. If I go to his right I need not sacrifice anything.

The demon then abducts one of your party members. If you are doing a solo run, the demon instead takes a random innocent from the prime material plane - or it claims to do that, anyway. I don't think it would actually be able to do that.

https://s8.postimg.cc/w4plap3fp/5b_A0_O5v.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/5bA0O5v)

Anyway, we have party members. The demon goes for Jaheira.

https://s8.postimg.cc/qtaopzp2t/1321_Xge.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/1321Xge)

There are three doors on each side. Go through the ones on the viewer's right, and the companion takes damage. When you go through the third door, they die, no questions asked. If you're playing on Core difficulty or above, they are reduced to chunky salsa, so no resurrection.
Go through the ones on the left, and CHARNAME suffers permanent debuffs. The first door takes 2 max HP, the second takes a point of DEX, and the third takes some experience points. (You can cheat it, but I messed that up here. The Spell Immunity: Divination would need to go on CHARNAME. Alternatively, you can try to Haste the stolen party member and have them open the door from the inside before they are frozen.)

... this hurts my inner minmaxer, but we do the right thing.

https://s8.postimg.cc/xjr5zfjyd/v_YCG9_NR.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/vYCG9NR)

Welcome back, Jaheira. The good path gives you +10 magic resistance, which... is actually pretty good. Huh. The evil path gives you a permanent -2 to AC bonus, but you do lose your party member. (Lower ACs are better, because THAC0 is a really wacky system.)

As for Book!Abdel... I think it would depend on the person abducted. We've seen that he's willing to suffer in order to save his friends. But a random peasant? I'm not sure. He'd definitely suffer for Jaheira, though.

https://s8.postimg.cc/93904yqxh/r_Fpf_W2o.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/rFpfW2o)

Up next is Fear. That's not traditionally part of the seven deadly sins, but Sloth's precursor acedia has a range of possible interpretations. "Inaction due to fear of the future" is one of them. So... if you squint a bit, this could be Sloth. Fear's voice is soft and quiet.

:roach: FEAR: A Tear of Bhaal lies very close to here, Child of Bhaal... just beyond either of these two rooms before you.
:roach: FEAR: You have encountered many times in your existence where you have been forced to swallow your fear, no? You have fought off terror that would overwhelm a lesser being and shown courage, instead.
:roach: FEAR: Pass through either of these rooms and your vaunted courage shall be challenged, Child of Bhaal.
:roach: FEAR: I have something I will offer, however, which will make it so much easier for you, Child. You know, like so many with power, that items of magic can do much that the ordinary man cannot...
:roach: FEAR: ...such as this cloak, for instance. Stitched together from the flayed skins of lovely nymphs. Wear it and be soothed by its powerful magic... panic will never overcome you again.
:roach: FEAR: With this cloak you could easily gather the Tear of Bhaal and worry not of your courage. I bow to the power of your divine soul, Child, and offer this cloak up to you... if you wish it.
:roy: CHARNAME: A cloak stitched from the skin of nymphs? I can feel its evil from here. I wish nothing to do with it, despite its power.
:roach: FEAR: Then you choose to rely on your own power and bravery. It shall be as you wish, Child of Bhaal.

Journal entry:
Finding Irenicus in Hell

I encountered a demon who seemed to perform some kind of test of character. It explained that there are two paths to a Tear of Bhaal... both are paths of fear. It offered me a vile cloak of nymph's skin to protect me from the fear, saying the path would be easier, but I refused.

Fear's voice sounds rather feminine to me, but CHARNAME refers to the demon as "it." Fair enough.

https://s8.postimg.cc/hlig9b55x/r_FWg_BZT.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/rFWgBZT)

One path leads to a group of Beholders. The other one leads to an empty room, but it inflicts a fear effect on whomever tries to enter it. The cloak protects you, but... well... Remove Fear (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Remove_Fear) and Resist Fear (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Resist_Fear) are easy to come by. (Things like Enrage (http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Enrage) will also work.) There's really no reason to take the cloak, even if you don't want to fight the Beholders.

Maybe this is a commentary on the nature of fear, which can make things seem so much worse than they actually are...? I don't know. The good solution gives you immunity to +1 weapons or less, which is basically trinket text because people with non-magical weapons weren't a threat to begin with. The evil path nets you +2 CON, and you get to keep the cloak as lagniappe. The cloak is kind of whatever, but Constitution is a supremely important stat. So, once again, my inner min-maxer is sad. Oh well.

This is a test Book!Abdel would pass with flying colours. I don't think he knows what fear is.

This leaves just one Tear, guarded by the sin of sins:

https://s8.postimg.cc/8qhlyso39/2_SAHVT2.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/2SAHVT2)

Pride. Pride is the original and most serious of the seven deadly sins, so it makes sense that we've saved him for last. Its voice is deep and resonant, even booming. The voice actor is really hamming it up for Pride, and he's having the time of his life.

:roach: PRIDE: Ah. So the Child of Bhaal comes to me, finally, for the last of the Tears of Bhaal. You have come very near to locating your quarry, o young <PRO_LADYLORD> of Murder. Yes, indeed you have.
:roy: CHARNAME: I suppose you're going to tell me Irenicus has been waiting behind that strange doorway this entire time?
:roach: PRIDE: Of course not. He moves fast, yet you close on him quickly. The tests you make are clever, o young <PRO_LADYLORD> of Murder. Your power here is strong.
:roy: CHARNAME: What do you mean?
:roach: PRIDE: How do you find your soul, Child of Bhaal? Do you find it on a stroll? No, you must know yourself, the depths of your passion and the heights of your depravity.
:roach: PRIDE: You come to know what you are capable of, and that shall open the way to your soul. It is yourself, your essence, that you seek... whether you know it or not.
:roach: PRIDE: And because this is what you seek, your power fights against the mage and brings you closer to your goal. Soon you shall open the eyes with the Tears of Bhaal.
:roy: CHARNAME: And what then? The door will be open and Irenicus will be there?
:roach: PRIDE: The way to your soul shall be revealed, but you only perceive it as a door. A pity that mortal minds can encompass more power than their faculties can comprehend.
:roach: PRIDE: I hope you have been careful, Child of Bhaal. The Nine Hells are a place of retribution... the Tears sting as easily as they soothe.
:roy: CHARNAME: Why are you speaking so cryptically? What does that mean?
:roach: PRIDE: I obscure the truth because it is my nature to do so, o <PRO_LADYLORD> of Murder. But I bow to your mastery, here, and answer your questions nevertheless.
:roach: PRIDE: It is a good thing you have come to me, Child of Bhaal. Only you hold the power to vanquish the terrible creature that holds one of your dead father's Tears here.
:roach: PRIDE: I have heard of your prowess, Child... most impressive, for a mortal life. Creatures of great power thrown aside as if they were nothing! Beings any other mortal would quake before you have fought against valiantly!
:roach: PRIDE: You are a wonder of destruction, Child of Bhaal! Go, then, and defeat the creature that lies in the cavern! Crush it beneath your heel and claim another victory!
:roy: CHARNAME: What manner of creature do you speak of?
:roach: PRIDE: It is a powerful creature, Child of Bhaal. One that only you can destroy! I am confident in your ability to deal death to such a creature as this and take the Tear that is yours!
:roy: CHARNAME: It's powerful... but what manner of creature *is* it?
:roach: PRIDE: It is a creature that deserves death, Child of Bhaal. You are such a wondrous fighter, I simply thought that you could defeat it where others failed.
:roy: CHARNAME: Why does it deserve death?
:roach: PRIDE: Because... because it exists. It stands in your way.
:roy: CHARNAME: Are you saying that it will not give me the Tear?
:roach: PRIDE: Well... no. It *might* give it to you if you ask it nicely enough, I suppose.
:roach: PRIDE: I see that despite your great deeds you have no pride in you, Child of Bhaal. So be it. Humility serves well those who wield it well.

Journal entry:
Finding Irenicus in Hell

I encountered a demon that attempted to appeal to my ego to get me to face a terrible creature it claimed held the Tear of Bhaal. The more I questioned it, however, the more frustrated it got... until it finally admitted the creature might just give the Tear to me. I shall have to see for myself what manner of creature this is and if a battle is even necessary.

The demon that holds the last of the Tears of Bhaal has made things clearer to me. In this place, this piece of Hell over which I hold power, things are not what they seem. My inner thoughts battle against Irenicus, here. I search for him and he seeks to obscure himself. But Irenicus has my soul... and the way to discover my soul is to know more of it. Hence the 'tests' that I am putting myself through. With each I grow closer to Irenicus' location, and soon the way to my soul will be clear.

The idea that my subconscious is what gives this place form and summons these demons is disturbing. More so, perhaps, because it seems to happen so naturally. The demon also warned me that the Tears of Bhaal sting... Hell is a place of retribution. What it means by that I do not know.

Aaaaand he deflates completely if you resist the ego flattery. It's amazing.

The first and last demon are special. In the first side-area you visit, you receive an explanation on how the area works, while the last warns you to be careful around the tests. They all put their own spin on it, but they give similar information. It's fitting, given the consequences of giving in. (Again, more on that in a while.)

The important thing to note here is that this place is highly metaphorical. The eyes, the door and possibly the tests are a form we can comprehend. These events are real, but they aren't... literal, for lack of a better word.

https://s8.postimg.cc/nz7jckphh/ZU1_NPQW.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/ZU1NPQW)

Anyway, the creature turns out to be a golden dragon, which indeed hands over the tear without a fight. The good reward is +20% fire/cold/electric resistance, which is nice to have. The evil reward is 200,000 EXP plus some loot, and also you fight a dragon. I think this is one of the few cases where the good reward is just better, because EXP isn't exactly hard to come by. The loot does include a Robe of the Evil Archmage, but there's no real reason to use that when the Robe of Vecna is available.

(I wonder how Bhaal got a gold dragon down here. Remember, those are the nice ones. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0207.html) Maybe it's glittery paint on a black dragon? Forcing a black dragon to cosplay as one of the Lawful Good ones would be one heck of an ironic punishment.)

So, how would Book!Abdel act here? I'm... not sure, actually. Bodhi tried flattering his ego (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?544430-Let-s-Read-amp-Play-Baldurs-Gate-II-Bhaal-is-Dead!&p=22730167&viewfull=1#post22730167) back in Chapter Five, but Abdel didn't really respond to that. He's good at what he does, but he's not prideful. Abdel did end up killing Aran Linvail for her, but the argument that got him was "you have no other options" and not "smite the beast oh mighty smiter." At the same time, Book!Abdel is bad at figuring out what bits of information are or aren't trustworthy. It's entirely possible that he simply wouldn't think to question Pride's assertion that the creature "deserves death." This one could go either way.

https://s8.postimg.cc/4u4a2tij9/t_G2_RJ02.png (https://postimages.org/)
Screenshot (https://www.imgur.com/tG2RJ02)

If Pride can be trusted, closing the last eye will open the door and let us confront Irenicus. This will be the final battle for our soul. No more hiding, no more fleeing, no more mulligans, no more do-overs. This is it. It's time.

Well, it'll be time shortly. In the next update.

I have to admit this chapter gives me trouble. I must've read it four or five times, but I can't figure out why Irenicus would go down to meet Abdel. See, in the book, Irenicus actually succeeds in draining the Tree of Life. Jaheira is too late; the bad guy has won. He goes down to meet Abdel in what seems to be a voluntary action.
The book's sequence of events is a complete mess. The game can be a bit obtuse, but it makes internal sense. You sword at Irenicus, Irenicus dies, you're dragged to Hell with Irenicus because he still has your soul, you battle him for the soul in question. In the book, Irenicus actually succeeds in draining the ToL, then follows Abdel to Gehenna for seemingly no reason.
I don't understand this. There doesn't seem to be an actual textual reason for this. Why would Irenicus do this? Pettiness? I mean, Irenicus is a major douche, but he's never been too hung up on finishing off his enemies. Maybe it's just a plot hole. See, the book is beholden to follow the outline of the game's plot. This chapter therefore has to end with Abdel and Irenicus both going to Hell for the final confrontation, even if it doesn't make sense with the story that the book was telling us so far.

See, in the game, CHARNAME and Irenicus are joined because Irenicus stole CHARNAME's soul. That was always Irenicus' plan. He averted his doom and gained some magical firepower by stealing CHARNAME's soul, and he was then going to use that to drain the Tree of Life and become a god. It's not the most straightforward plan in fantasy fiction, but it makes internal sense and it's consistent. You only learn about it bit by bit, but all the bits make sense in hindsight.

In the book, that didn't actually happen. Irenicus and Abdel aren't joined, and neither are Irenicus and Imoen. Nobody's soul was actually taken. Sure, Imoen was apparently losing her soul, but that seems to have been entirely incidental. In case you need a refresher on the needlessly convoluted plot: It seems that Irenicus was just looking for a Bhaalspawn to use as a glorified siege weapon, and everything else was just side effects. We don't yet know if the Slayer thing was intended (it was), but it seems he just wanted something to cause chaos and let him get to the Tree. But the narrative requires a soul link, for reasons that will soon become obvious, so we get this whole mess. Am I missing something? I must be missing something, but I can't figure out what. Let me know if I'm missing something.

Eh, anyway. The actual meat of this chapter is definitely the visit to Hell. This would have been a great opportunity for the novel to distinguish itself. See, as much as I like the trip to Hell, the actual temptations are a bit generic. There isn't a whole lot of setup for anything that happens here.

It kinda has to be this way, too, since CHARNAME is a player-defined character. They have a well-defined voice, but their actions are decided by the player. The designers couldn't know in advance how you would play the game, so the tests in Hell have to be designed such that they work for a wide range of possible CHARNAMEs, from Paladin to Wizard to Rogue. As a result, they end up targetting the player more than the character. There's a cool sword for the hoarders, some permanent stat gains/stat losses to tempt the min-maxers, some cool optional boss battles... are you suuuure you want to miss out on all that? C'mon, there has to be something here for you. The demons only need you to give in once, so they go broad. It reminds me of Undertale, except combat is actually fun in Baldur's Gate. That's all rather fascinating from a Doylist viewpoint, but it doesn't do much for the actual story. (Throne of Bhaal will take another stab at this, and it has better narrative integration there, though it does come at the price of a few retcons.)

The book could've done something cool here, since Abdel does actually have a well-defined personality. A terrible one, yes, but a personality nonetheless. Up to this point, all the conflict has been external; Abdel has never really been challenged as a person, not in a way that strikes at the core of his identity. I'd be up for watching him wrestle with metaphorical demons instead of literal demons. (More about that in the next chapter.)

Solitary confinement is a good start, but sadly nothing comes of it. This is the Athansverse, where nothing interesting can ever happen. The game's Hell is a unique dungeon full of story and little character moments, while the book's Hell is a featureless room that contains only Abdel. Sometimes, literary criticism is really easy.

I guess the book still has one more chapter. So there's one last chance to tie all of this together and have the plot make sense. Let's continue to feign optimism.

For our last real AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the whole Hell segment. It can be terribly frustrating, since this is after a point of no return. It's possible that you'll make it here but be unable to defeat Irenicus, and in that case, you'll have no choice but to reload an earlier save.
That said, I quite like it for what it is. This is the last time the series really gets to yank out the carpet from under your feet. We just had a big old final boss battle in Suldanessalar, with all the build-up and tension that implies. Hell, we even did the thing where all our party members chimed in about how the bad guy needs to be killed, and the bad guy rejected the last-minute opportunity to back down. That's what happens at the end of a story. Having a second climax after that is unexpected. This chapter also brings back some themes that sort of... faded away after the soul-theft. The Baldur's Gate series asks some thorny questions about identity and predestination, and that really comes into focus here. It lasts just long enough to be impactful.

So yeah. I like the journey to Hell. How about you, though?

Kish

2018-06-22, 11:36 AM

You can also purchase a Robe of the Evil Archmagi in Ust Natha, if you want one.

Two features that might make the Slayer form worth using for one particular fight: It's immune to Imprisonment and its claws count as +5 weapons.

Spore

2018-06-22, 12:40 PM

I like Neithan, though that's mostly because I'm a sucker for the guile hero. All of them are fine choices, I think.

Haha, that really shows considering how you react to Abdel's absence of a plan.

Big round of applause for our heroes

https://i.imgur.com/5mRUjdt.png

How are our heroes going to get out of this one?

Devil ex Machina probably.

Dear diary, today I woke up in Hell... my headcanon is that the chapter headings exist in-universe, because CHARNAME was raised by librarians. Our Bhaalspawn probably spent a good five minutes just staring at the page, trying to decide whether this warranted a new chapter.

Eh, it's still part of Irenicus' scheme. You should not give it another chapter. Consider how much effort and time went into medieval writing. Abdel could've easily sat there for half an hour crafting up the page.

This whole area has an eyes-and-teeth theme to it, which I guess makes sense for Hell

What? how? 'rending' teeth I get for a god of murder. But the eyes? Or is it because his portfolio includes killing for revenge, so it's literally eye for an eye.

CHARNAME: The Tears of Bhaal?
SAREVOK: A tear fell for every murdered soul, every torment paid by our father, and he kept each one. They can show the path to your wizard... if you gather them all, that is.

Oh, that explains the eye thing. That is actually semi-romantic. For an assassin thinking about the loved ones of a murder victim.

The first demon you encounter always explains how this area works.

Demons? Teach me but I thought it's daemons/yugoloths and devils in Gehenna. Probably just artistic freedom of the journal author. the demons ARE themed around the deadly sins which makes sense just not in a FR cosmos kind of way.

I wonder how Bhaal got a gold dragon down here.

Probably like you'd goad any paladin into the Abyss or Hell. Tell them, there is a world ending threat down there. And instead of killing them, you just imprison them.

It was common for gold dragons to appoint themselves with quests to promote good. Those that earned a gold dragon's fury found a relentless enemy who would not rest until the utter and complete subjugation of the evildoers. Either by slaying or by bringing villains to justice, a gold dragon's only acceptable outcome was complete victory over evil

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Gold_dragon

So yeah. I like the journey to Hell. How about you, though?

From a purely gameplay perspective I love it. Several paths, both with worthwhile rewards. You can majorly shape your character, a thing missing from many games claiming to be RPGs. There is character development and you notice it on the crunch side.

From the story perspective, it is the logical decision to wind up at the seat of your father's power. I like Hell, and I like the pocket dimension from ToB even more. CHARNAME's special abilities with Draw Holy Might and similar are a nice touch but they are vague enough to not really be connected to the god of murder.

And for a reputable (good) Charname, some choices are even weirder. Why would a scion of murder be granted cure light wounds or delay poison? Yes, you might be fighting your heritage in your dreams. But that doesn't change the divine pool you draw your power from.

Kish

2018-06-22, 01:14 PM

Charname's in the Abyss, not Gehenna.

Yes, in tabletop D&D Bhaal was a Lawful Evil power whose divine domain was in Gehenna.

This is not something the writers of BG2 took into account.

They'll even have Cyric sneer, in Throne of Bhaal, that his home plane in Pandemonium is "much better than anywhere in the Abyss."

Spore

2018-06-22, 02:14 PM

Charname's in the Abyss, not Gehenna.

This is not something the writers of BG2 took into account.

Hum, I suppose infinite demiplanes are a lot spacier than the Nine Hells.

Guancyto

2018-06-22, 09:09 PM

One of the funny bits about the Slayer: the self-damage it deals to you is Lightning damage, so if you have the Cloak of Reflection, or Protection from Electricity cast on you, you don't need to worry about it at all.

In fact, if I remember right, if the exponentially-increasing lightning damage can't kill you, you eventually turn back unharmed. It's been a while since I've actually bothered (those last two points of Reputation are hard to get back), though, so I could be remembering wrong?

Rusty Spoon

2018-06-22, 09:11 PM

I'm conflicted. Besides not wanting to steal your thunder, we offer very different things - I know a good deal about the EE features and SoD itself, while you'd provide a fresh perspective that would well serve an audience unfamiliar with the new game. That said, it's tempting and we could split ToB and SoD between us, seeing as SoD doesn't have a book to go with it.

If people are actually interested in me talking about SoD, I would ask you guys to help me with the toughest part of the game for me: picking who I'm playing, since I'll want to play through BG1 before I begin...

Abdel (LN Male Human Skald): My version of the "canon" main character. Not a powerful fighter in his own right, but a natural leader whose support makes his team much more effective. Primary party could be Minsc, Dynaheir, Glint, M'khiin, and Corwin.

Sienna (TN Female Human Dragon Disciple): "Our lady of hellfire." A girl entirely too at home with her fiendish heritage, who solves problems by reducing them to cinders. Primary party could be Safana, Edwin, Viconia, Dorn, and Volghiln.

Neithan (CG Male Human Berserker/Thief): An adventurer and historian, prone to guile and charm as his preferred weapons. Indiana Jones as a D&D character. Primary party could be Neera, Rasaad, Baeloth, Jaheira, and Khalid

Jean (NG Female Human Shaman): A fun loving girl whose dance can turn the spirit world into her own personal army. Voted least likely to take the game serious. Primary party could be Glint, Minsc, Dynaheir, Jaheira, and Khalid

Not everyone is available right up front, of course, so others will be in the party in the interim. If anyone is interested, I could add in mod companions, but that seems counter to this exercise. The options there are Aura the gnome artificer (thief) and Sirine the tiefling paladin.

I would love to see some SoD, I'm probably going to get it *eventually*, but I really need to finish a run through of BGEE first.
My vote is Sienna. Love the party, love the kill-it-with-fire attitude, and it's different to any of my go-to characters.

For our last real AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the whole Hell segment. It can be terribly frustrating, since this is after a point of no return. It's possible that you'll make it here but be unable to defeat Irenicus, and in that case, you'll have no choice but to reload an earlier save.
That said, I quite like it for what it is. This is the last time the series really gets to yank out the carpet from under your feet. We just had a big old final boss battle in Suldanessalar, with all the build-up and tension that implies. Hell, we even did the thing where all our party members chimed in about how the bad guy needs to be killed, and the bad guy rejected the last-minute opportunity to back down. That's what happens at the end of a story. Having a second climax after that is unexpected. This chapter also brings back some themes that sort of... faded away after the soul-theft. The Baldur's Gate series asks some thorny questions about identity and predestination, and that really comes into focus here. It lasts just long enough to be impactful.

So yeah. I like the journey to Hell. How about you, though?
I enjoyed the Hell section. It's a nice gap between killing Irenicus in the face again and again, and has a certain epic, almost-there, one last dungeon feel to it. And the theme is on point.
I never quite got my head around how evil you could be without changing alignment, especially as a ranger or paladin. It does feel a *little* rail-roady as a good character - you have one super clear option you can do and that's it. As a neutral or evil character though, I would gladly bring some cannon fodder NPCs and sacrifice them all the way. Bye Yoshimo! Thanks for betraying me so I can get my revenge on you in Hell.

You can also purchase a Robe of the Evil Archmagi in Ust Natha, if you want one.

Two features that might make the Slayer form worth using for one particular fight: It's immune to Imprisonment and its claws count as +5 weapons.
Slayer form I could never get the hang of either. It tended to kill me more than the enemies :smallmad:

Charname's in the Abyss, not Gehenna.

Yes, in tabletop D&D Bhaal was a Lawful Evil power whose divine domain was in Gehenna.

This is not something the writers of BG2 took into account.

They'll even have Cyric sneer, in Throne of Bhaal, that his home plane in Pandemonium is "much better than anywhere in the Abyss."

TBH, I can't keep the convoluted 2e planescape straight in the first place. Hell sounds suitably generic for an evil plane, everything else is so much unnecessary exposition. I think they struck a good balance between keeping Forgotten Realms lore intact and keeping it accessible to more casual gamers.

Edit:

One of the funny bits about the Slayer: the self-damage it deals to you is Lightning damage, so if you have the Cloak of Reflection, or Protection from Electricity cast on you, you don't need to worry about it at all.

In fact, if I remember right, if the exponentially-increasing lightning damage can't kill you, you eventually turn back unharmed. It's been a while since I've actually bothered (those last two points of Reputation are hard to get back), though, so I could be remembering wrong?
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? All this time...

JadedDM

2018-06-23, 01:20 PM

TBH, I can't keep the convoluted 2e planescape straight in the first place. Hell sounds suitably generic for an evil plane, everything else is so much unnecessary exposition. I think they struck a good balance between keeping Forgotten Realms lore intact and keeping it accessible to more casual gamers.

It is a lot to keep track of. There is one plane for each alignment, plus a plane between each alignment. Maybe that's why Dragonlance simplified with just one plane for Good, one for Neutral and one for Evil.

The Lower Planes normally consist of:

LN/LE - Acheron
LE - Baator (AKA the Nine Hells)
LE/NE - Gehenna
NE - Gray Wastes (AKA Hades)
NE/CE - Carceri (AKA Tarterus)
CE - Abyss
CE/CN - Pandemonium

Spore

2018-06-23, 01:55 PM

there are border planes between neutral and evil? I never knew that. But I'd enjoy having a major campaign coming from there. CN/CE entropic creature. He isn't necessarily trying to kill you and sow sorrow. He's just kind of bored of ordered things and wants to speed up entropy for a bit.

mangosta71

2018-06-23, 04:48 PM

Calemyr

2018-06-24, 12:57 AM

For our last real AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the whole Hell segment. It can be terribly frustrating, since this is after a point of no return. It's possible that you'll make it here but be unable to defeat Irenicus, and in that case, you'll have no choice but to reload an earlier save.
That said, I quite like it for what it is. This is the last time the series really gets to yank out the carpet from under your feet. We just had a big old final boss battle in Suldanessalar, with all the build-up and tension that implies. Hell, we even did the thing where all our party members chimed in about how the bad guy needs to be killed, and the bad guy rejected the last-minute opportunity to back down. That's what happens at the end of a story. Having a second climax after that is unexpected. This chapter also brings back some themes that sort of... faded away after the soul-theft. The Baldur's Gate series asks some thorny questions about identity and predestination, and that really comes into focus here. It lasts just long enough to be impactful.

So yeah. I like the journey to Hell. How about you, though?

For my part, I think it's the best part of the game - mainly because I see a subtext in it that I feel really adds to the situation. "Abdel" (lets go with that to make the pronoun game simpler) is in hell, trying to find his soul. He has a direct (but uncontrolled line) to the plane he's in. Irenicus has enough to keep himself hidden. So what does Abdel do to find his soul? He finds himself. He defines who and what he is through a series of tests so that the plane can find his soul, yank Irenicus out of hiding, and finish this mess once and for all. It's a pretty powerful moment when you look at it from that angle, I find.

For the future, I've got one vote for Neithan (might make him a FMT, come to think of it...), and one for Sienna. If it helps, I would probably preface my run with a quick playthrough of BGEE. Not the whole game, mind, Khay already did a fine job of that. Just the new characters (Neera, Dorn, Rasaad, and Baeloth) and their story lines. Perhaps I'd better wait to settle on a SoD party until after that, come to think of it.

Khay

2018-06-30, 08:53 AM

Hi guys! You may have noticed that a lot of images around the Web are broken right now - including, unfortunately, the screenshots in this thread. This is because Imgur changed its hotlinking policy. (In short: They're banned.)

I added click-to-view links to every post in both threads, and I'm working on re-uploading everything to a different hosting service (https://postimages.org/faq), but it'll take a while. I don't relish the idea of going through the thread for Bhaal Must Be Stopped! again, since some of those posts contain 40+ screenshots, but I guess it's my own fault for using Imgur. For now, if you're not seeing in-line pictures, you may have to follow this guide. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23172421&postcount=6)

So... this is it. Chapter Twenty-Seven is the end. Once more unto the breach, dear friends.

Last time, we went to Hell. Well, Gehenna. Abdel spent some time sitting around and waiting for Bhaal to speak to him, but the god is dead and he's not coming back. Irenicus showed up some time after Abdel, seemingly just to taunt him.

"He's dead, you idiot," Irenicus sneered from somewhere in the roaring flames of Hell. "Your father is dead, and you'll get no answers from him."
Abdel gave himself over to the rage and reached out for the source of Irenicus's voice. He found something that felt like flesh and clawed through it. There was the sound of a grunt and the feel of blood, then the sound of laughter.
A hand grabbed Abdel's throat and squeezed. Abdel reached up with a viciously taloned foot and ripped Irenicus's stomach open. Irenicus squeezed, and Abdel's head came off at the neck. His vision tumbled and blurred, and Abdel realized that couldn't actually have happened—not even in Hell.

I... hm. I think I like this? It seems that the two can inflict mortal wounds on each other, but nobody can actually die. Hell seems to be using cartoon logic, where characters suffer horrible injuries but are back to normal in the next scene. (Check out these fully official stats for Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck. (https://twitter.com/studiesincrap/status/783303110848569344)) I think that kind of makes sense, given it's supposed to be a place of eternal suffering.

This would probably work better if the books had kept to a consistent (semi-)realistic tone. We've already had scenes like this in the real world. Abdel has shrugged off several mortal injuries, and neither a broken spine nor the loss of an arm had any real consequences back in the "real world." I like the weird and dreamlike feeling of Hell, but there needed to be a sharper break. Still, the concept is sound.

Irenicus decides to drop some exposition while he's down here.

"Idiot human child," Irenicus said. "Waiting for orders, waiting for answers. You don't get any answers, child, in the flea speck of a lifetime you enjoy. You don't get to know. (...) Only you — spawn of Bhaal — could have destroyed the Ravager, and only when the Ravager was destroyed could the Slayer take its place. (...) Only the Slayer could kill Ellesime. (...) Now, Ellesime is dead. Now, you give me your soul, and I use it and the power of that detestable tree to make myself immortal. I get. I take. I have. You disappear."

If we take this at face value, it implies that everything up to this point was somehow part of Irenicus' plan. He wanted Team Abdel to keep escaping and seemingly stopping his plans, because he wanted Abdel to kill the Ravager, because he needed the Ravager to kill Ellesime. That's just ridiculous. I guess it's possible that Irenicus just wanted to move Abdel and Imoen to Suldanessellar, but then we still have the problem that most of the plot was essentially meaningless. I'm going to assume he's just taunting Abdel.

Also, Irenicus needed to kill Ellesime because... reasons...? He also wants Abdel's soul now, but I'm not sure why. The detestable tree seemed to be enough the first time he went for this. What, is that no longer good enough? I feel like my book is missing a chapter.

Abdel points out that, actually, Ellesime isn't dead yet. There's a moment of awkward silence, then Irenicus shrugs it off.

"Neither of us are staying here, Abdel Adrian," Irenicus replied. "There isn't really even such a place as here. I'm going back to Faerûn an immortal, whether Ellesime lives or not. You're going nowhere. You go to oblivion."

Why did you come here in the first place? Having Abdel be confined in an impossible not-place isn't really all that different from consigning him to oblivion. Explain, book. Explain.

* * * * *

We briefly return to Jaheira. She's digging into the ground with her bare hands, because apparently Hell is just underground. (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/the-well-to-hell/)

Abdel wasn't in some place underground. He wasn't on this plane of existence.

See? You can't get there from here just by digging.

Jaheira stops after breaking off a fingernail. Since she's run out of other options, she decides to ask for help.

She stopped digging and let herself cry into the dry dirt, gave herself over to her goddess as a small, weak, desperate creature. "Help me," she begged.
The words called to her — sounded in the wind — and Jaheira sobbed at the sound of them: Call to him.
"Mielikki," Jaheira cried, "Lady, thank you." She pushed her face into the hole she dug and drew in a deep, soil-scented breath.
"Abdel!" she screamed into the ground. "Abdel!" She breathed again, ignoring the pain in her throat, and screamed, "Abdel!"

So... the gods have been forbidden from intervening in the Bhaalspawn situation, and no god ever wants to be the first one to break the rules. (Cyric will explain this in Throne of Bhaal.) Mielikki is at least bending the rules here, because Abdel can actually hear Jaheira across planes.

* * * * *

Abdel felt a piece of his soul bitten away, and he let it go. He didn't care anymore. (...)
"I'll use it well, Abdel," Irenicus whispered straight into Abdel's disintegrating soul. Abdel felt his legs pop and twist backward, though he didn't really believe he had a body anymore.
"... del..." a woman's voice echoed from so far away, he was sure it was his imagination. He was struck by the fact that he was in Hell and thought that something as simple as the sound of Jaheira calling his name was imagin—-
Jaheira.
"Abdel..." her voice came again, a little louder this time.

Then again, this could be achieved by casting Sending (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sending.htm), and Jaheira was praying to Mielikki for help. So... fair enough.

The sound of Jaheira's voice distracts Abdel from the fight, and reminds him of the world above.

"Abdel," she called, "please..."
That last word burst through the tattered remains of Abdel's soul like lightning, and he could feel her. Irenicus had stripped so much of him away — eaten it in a very real sense — but he'd left one part behind. He'd left the part inhabited by Jaheira. Maybe every part of his soul was home to her in some way.

This is actually quite sweet, as long as you disregard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21720956&postcount=9) how they met and how their relationship (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21918023&postcount=60) actually formed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21944354&postcount=63). Had their been proper setup for this - had their relationship been given room to develop - then this might've actually worked. As it stands... ehhhhh.

Abdel shouts back for Jaheira.

* * * * *

Every time she screamed his name, a little part of the fire that was consuming the Tree of Life went out. "Abdel!" (...)
There was a flash of light that Jaheira didn't bother to recognize. It wasn't Abdel—she knew that on a primal level—so whatever it was didn't matter. Only Abdel mattered. "Abdel!"
"Jaheira!" Imoen called from behind her.

"Only Abdel mattered." Sometimes, my job is really easy. The bit about the fires going out also suggests that the draining of the Tree actually wasn't finished yet. That makes Irenicus' decision to go to Hell even more baffling. Finish what you started, Jon.

Ellesime and Imoen realise what Jaheira is doing. They join her around the tree, kneeling on the ground and shouting for the protagonist. Oh, yeah - Imoen is feeling better now, I guess.

Imoen fell to the ground next to Jaheira without hesitation. Tears flowed anew from Jaheira's burning eyes.
"Abdel!" the young girl screamed, her voice louder than Jaheira's.
"Abdel!" Ellesime screamed.
"Abdel!" Jaheira screamed.
Ellesime and Imoen screamed, "Abdel!" together.
"Abdel!" Jaheira screamed. "Abdel!"
"Abdel!" Imoen screamed[.] (...)
"Abdel!" came another voice — Ellesime.

No, really. This is what happens. This is how our big narrative climax is resolved: Three people gathering and pressing X to Abdel. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAhG9D9UO7c)

Abdel focused on Jaheira's voice, and on Imoen's and Ellesime's. He sent his soul reaching up, and his human hands followed. His human eyes turned up out of the orange and toward the bedrock above.
"No!" Irenicus screamed sharply, and the scream took a piece of Abdel's soul away with it, but it was a small piece.

Every "Abdel!" gives our protagonist a small chunk of his humanity back. This also weakens Irenicus for some reason.

"You look at me!" Irenicus shrieked. "You fight me!"
Abdel could feel the desperation surge through Irenicus. The tide shifted that quickly. Abdel had somewhere to go. He had a real future, not the illusion of Irenicus's gloried immortality as master of a single vampire and a madhouse on an island no one had bothered to name.

I... have no idea where that came from. Say what you want about Irenicus, but I'm preeeeetty sure that his plans for the future involved more than Spellhold.

Abdel looks around, and suddenly realises he can sort of tell where the voices are coming from. It's not really up in the traditional sense, but Abdel can sense a way out now.

He reached up, but it was too far.
"Face me!" Irenicus practically begged. "Fight!"
That was all the necromancer had. He depended on nothing but Abdel's need to fight, the fact that that was all Abdel could do: fight.
Instead, Abdel stepped on Irenicus — figuratively if not literally. Abdel felt as if he had feet,but did he? He might have been in a place where feet were irrelevant.
Still, he stepped on Irenicus, and that sent the necromancer spinning into a mass of incoherent ranting.

Oh boy. We'll have words about this below, believe me on that one.

Abdel moves "up," towards the voices of his friends, and pushes Irenicus further "down" into the pit. Eventually, he catches on to Jaheira's hand, and she pulls him up through the dirt.

He coughed and felt his head return to some kind of solid reality. He could feel his body again. He could move again. (...)
"Abdel..." Jaheira's voice sounded rough, raw, but closer now and real, not a distant echo from Faerûn to Hell.
"Jaheira," he said into her face, which was only inches from his own.
Jaheira touched him. She was crying, but she was happy. Imoen was there, wherever there was, and so was Ellesime. He looked around and saw a tree bigger than any tree he'd ever imagined. The tree was blackened, but the black was falling off in clumps to reveal healthy bark beneath. Brilliant green leaves grew, and as the Tree of Life surged back to life, Abdel was sure he could hear Jon Irenicus screaming.
"Abdel," Jaheira said, "you're alive."
He looked at her, smiled, and said, "I want to go home." He glanced at Imoen. "To Candlekeep."

And that's the end of Bhaal is Dead! by Philip Athans. After this, there's a bunch of ads for R. A. Salvatore novels, and then the cover text. Did you spot any Bhaal disciples in this one? Because I sure didn't.

Last time, we went to Hell. Literally. We confronted and overcame physical manifestations of 71.43% of our sins,* and we are, at last, ready to finish the battle for our soul.

(* We didn't have room for Gluttony and the ESRB wouldn't let us do Lust.)

https://s8.postimg.cc/7m2pla05x/VPKCLi_U.png (https://postimages.org/)
Picture (https://www.imgur.com/VPKCLiU)

We close the final eye and open the door. Take a moment to admire those horrible moustaches.

... this is probably a good time to talk about this place a little more. I always referred to the challenges as having a "good solution" and an "evil solution." There's a simple reason for that: If you give in during one of the challenges, your alignment changes (https://forum.quartertothree.com/t/baldurs-gate-2-alignment-switch/11643/7) to Neutral Evil.

No questions asked, no Reputation stat checked, no way to make up for it. Give in once, and that's it. You belong to the Yugoloths (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoloth) now, thanks for playing, enjoy your bad ending in Throne of Bhaal. (The Enhanced Edition lets you keep your position on the Lawful vs. Chaos axis.)
Notably, the opposite does not happen. You can reject all the temptations and not become Neutral Good. This is unfair, but it makes sense, given that this "test" takes place in Hell. The demons want you to fail, after all. That's why they tempt you in the first place. Of course the playing field wouldn't be even. They aren't in the business of rewarding virtue.
The ethical argument here seems to be that you can't sell part of your soul. As soon as you start weighing pros and cons, as soon as you start to think that there's something reasonable about the words of Greed or Wrath or Fear or Selfishness or Pride, you've already made your choice. You've given in. Now you're just haggling about the price. The only way to deal with evil - true, unvarnished, capital-letter Evil - is outright refusal.
This is a notable change from the first Baldur's Gate. That game looked at your Reputation stat to figure out whether you got the evil dreams or the good ones, not CHARNAME's alignment, which is a form of Consequentialism. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequentialism) SoA, however, takes a hard turn into Virtue ethics, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_ethics) and ToB will continue that theme. Which is weird, because the Bhaalspawn saga has strong consequentalist themes. Is evil something you are, or something you do? (https://www.reddit.com/r/SeriousConversation/comments/3h8y9p/is_evil_something_you_are_or_something_you_do/) That's one of the most fundamental questions in ethical philosophy, and also the fundamental question of the Bhaalspawn saga. ... maybe I'm overthinking this.

Anyway, with all that in mind, here's Jon Irenicus: A man who had already maxed out his Dark Side meter before he got here.

https://s8.postimg.cc/qr5yv1mjp/V8_W32e_F.png (https://postimages.org/)
Picture (https://www.imgur.com/V8W32eF)

Activating the door scatters your party around the room, then Irenicus summons you all back. Not quite sure what the point of this is. Maybe the script does something to your summoned creatures?

Anyway, Irenicus. He's looking good. You know, for someone who really should be dead twice over.

:xykon: IRENICUS: So, we are to battle one last time. No more hiding for either of us.
:xykon: IRENICUS: I will enjoy destroying you, <CHARNAME>. To die in this place is to cease to exist!
:roy: CHARNAME: I am ready to face you. I have seen the depths of my soul and I am not afraid.
:xykon: IRENICUS: Yes, perhaps you are focused within yourself, despite the loss of your soul. But I know as much of myself as well, and I, too, have no fear!
:xykon: IRENICUS: As horrific as this place is, it merely mirrors the soul we now share. Shrink from it if you will, but I have grown to appreciate what it can offer!
:xykon: IRENICUS: Now defend yourself! One of us is not truly dead, and may be restored if the other is left here to rot! I will be free with what I have taken!
:roy: CHARNAME: There is only one possible end. You will fall here, Irenicus. That, I promise.
:xykon: IRENICUS: We shall see, <CHARNAME>. We shall see!

Journal entry:
Finding Irenicus in Hell

I have followed Irenicus unwillingly to the Hells, tethered to him by the soul that he holds. We are neither completely alive nor completely dead, but we both hold power over this place in which Bhaal once ruled. My own perceptions have conjured up tests of myself, tests which led me to know myself better and brought me closer to finding my soul. And I have; it rests in the body of Irenicus, who has been preparing for my arrival.

We are on equal footing here. I only hope that I have the power to wrest my soul from his grasp once and for all. I feel that I must heed the warning that the demon gave me, as well... the Tears of Bhaal also sting. With hope, they will sting Irenicus and not myself, for I must use every advantage that I can.

We get one final sound-off from our party members while CHARNAME is busy writing.

https://s8.postimg.cc/w2kvfrgc5/Cli976_T.png (https://postimages.org/)
Picture (https://www.imgur.com/Cli976T)

Heh. Minsc, as usual, says it best. But here are the other ones:

:eek: AERIE: I came to Hell to help my friend! Who helps you, Irenicus? Demons? You're going to die alone in Hell and you know it!
:amused: VICONIA: The darkness has already taken you, foolish one, yet you refuse to close your eyes! Let us help you onwards to your final rest! L'il alurl! For Shar!!
:miko: JAHEIRA: No more platitudes, Irenicus. You have taken much from all of us. Now you die your final death!!
:haley: IMOEN: This is the last stand, here in Hell. We fall or we win.

No more platitudes, indeed. We've been through this before; let's just be done with it.

https://s8.postimg.cc/k0phlmmj9/M4n5_Dge.png (https://postimages.org/)
Picture (https://www.imgur.com/M4n5Dge)

This may be a metaphorical battle for our soul, but it works very much like a regular battle. Irenicus made some friends, it seems. He summons four major-league demons and changes into a Slayer avatar, and the battle is on.

https://s8.postimg.cc/4rzk7v8ad/i_IO3_Qlt.png (https://postimages.org/)
Picture (https://www.imgur.com/iIO3Qlt)

Step one is running away, because I'm not letting those demons chew on my mages.

We set up a chokepoint near one of the staircases and put our epic-level spell slots to work.

https://s8.postimg.cc/asx94y2md/f_Cw_Zv_Pc.png (https://postimages.org/)
Picture (https://www.imgur.com/fCwZvPc)

Imoen's Planetar does most of the heavy lifting here, but Jaheira's elemental summoning abilities continue to come in handy. Irenicus' army is soon reduced to shreds, because this encounter was not designed with high-level abilities in mind.

https://s8.postimg.cc/4t9i0ppdh/USDzs_FR.png (https://postimages.org/)
Picture (https://www.imgur.com/USDzsFR)

Notably, this version of Irenicus is only called "Slayer" by the game engine. He has fully submerged himself in the stolen Bhaal essence. If anything was left of the original Joneleth, it's certainly gone now.

You'd think he'd be more dangerous now, with his brand new Slayer body, but this is the Forgotten Realms. A mage plus anything else is just worse than a mage. He does still require light casterfight tactics, though.

https://s8.postimg.cc/pq5q5dv45/msqz_A9p.png (https://postimages.org/)
Picture (https://www.imgur.com/msqzA9p)

By the time he finally gets through our summons, his shields are gone. Evil, meet sword. SWORD, MEET EVIL!

https://s8.postimg.cc/m6jsflfjp/ldtw9_Qx.png (https://postimages.org/)
Picture (https://www.imgur.com/ldtw9Qx)

Irenicus dies with a face full of bees. Geez, Jaheira.

Once you reduce his HP to zero, the Slayer reverts into Irenicus. The screen starts shaking, a bunch of explosions happen and Irenicus dies screaming.

We fade to black, and...

https://s8.postimg.cc/xvns3ktnp/0p_Tjm8_A.png (https://postimages.org/)
Picture (https://www.imgur.com/0pTjm8A)

... we return to the world of the living at last.

:vaarsuvius: ELLESIME: Ah... I see that you have finally come to. I almost did not believe it when the priestesses told me that your body was showing signs of life once again.
:vaarsuvius: ELLESIME: We resurrected who we could, but it seemed nothing would draw your spirit back. We were about to give up when you began to stir this morning.
:roy: CHARNAME: H-how... how long was I...?
:vaarsuvius: ELLESIME: Dead? A couple of days, no more. However you managed to find your way back, it is good that you have done so.
:vaarsuvius: ELLESIME: You have done a great service for Suldanessellar. You saved the Tree of Life and myself, ending Irenicus' threat. To lose you would have been tragic.
:vaarsuvius: ELLESIME: I have planned a small ceremony to reward you for your actions, and to show our gratitude despite what your motives might have been.
:vaarsuvius: ELLESIME: You should rest, now, and regain your strength. I will send a priestess to awaken you when it is time.

A party, you say? Sure, I'm game.

https://s8.postimg.cc/6l2gvnygl/Bcb52_Z3.png (https://postimages.org/)
Picture (https://www.imgur.com/Bcb52Z3)

Whoah. You know, I don't think I've ever seen this many people in one room in the Infinity Engine games. Sure, the Enhanced Editions can pull it off, but back in the day? Nnnnno.

Ellesime has prepared a little speech.

https://s8.postimg.cc/mw2krzqdx/pmhjak2.png (https://postimages.org/)
Picture (https://www.imgur.com/pmhjak2)

Heh. Nothing is quite as fun as watching elves struggle to express gratitude.

:vaarsuvius: ELLESIME: Those of you who have survived the return of the Exile to Suldanessellar know me, your Queen... but only some of you know the hero beside me who was most instrumental in saving our city and the Tree of Life.
:vaarsuvius: ELLESIME: Such selfless acts almost resulted in the loss of your life, and perhaps much more than that.
:vaarsuvius: ELLESIME: These deeds were not performed alone... Suldanessellar also extends its gratitude to those who have traveled with you and fought by your side to help save our city.
:vaarsuvius: ELLESIME: There is no reward adequate enough for one who has done so much. Let us offer, then, the eternal thanks of our people... and an Amulet of the Seldarine to remind you forever that you are welcome here amongst us.
:vaarsuvius: ELLESIME: As for the man whom we once knew as Joneleth, I can only say that he died...long ago. He lives in my memory still.
:vaarsuvius: ELLESIME: To the man he became... the Exile, Irenicus... he who performed atrocities on you, the Tree and his former people... to him I can only send my prayer that he finds the peace in death he never found in life.
:vaarsuvius: ELLESIME: I feel I must... apologize... on his behalf. For what he put you and your friends through. For his madness, we stripped Joneleth of his elven immortality and exiled him... only to create Irenicus, instead.
:vaarsuvius: ELLESIME: I cannot help but feel we are partly responsible. It is something I shall have to ponder on.
:vaarsuvius: ELLESIME: As for you, I imagine you are eager to resume your travels once again. We wish you well... know we look forward to your return in the future, should you desire to.

"Partly responsible." Oh, Ellesime. I really hope that you had a good reason to love him. Sure, you doinked Joneleth back in the day, but you're just cutting him way too much slack.

https://s8.postimg.cc/8041kemp1/p2_JXua1.png (https://postimages.org/)
Picture (https://www.imgur.com/p2JXua1)

We linger on this scene for a moment, then slowly fade to black, and the game ends. They learned from Baldur's Gate 1, I think - SoA has a much less sudden ending, and it's a bit more satisfying because of that. I would've loved the opportunity to walk around Suldanessellar a bit, but there's no post-game content here.

This is followed by two short ending cinematics. I strongly recommend watching them, because they are pretty great.

https://s8.postimg.cc/5isad5aid/KCZ4_EUv.png (https://postimages.org/)
Picture (https://www.imgur.com/KCZ4EUv)

The first (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW_qd7HGaCM&t=0s&list=PL2BFacqBImNUsfZ4L-lceAaQ6exvybi1A&index=13) shows us Irenicus' fate. The average blackguard has absolutely nothing on Irenicus, so... yeah, he's going to the Abyss. There will be no peace for him. D&D cosmology isn't really clear on whether the evil afterlife is meant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?99003-Chaotic-Evil-afterlife) to be a punishment, but it's safe to say that the next few centuries are going to suck.

https://s8.postimg.cc/43qpofh51/tze_Br53.png (https://postimages.org/)
Picture (https://www.imgur.com/tzeBr53)

The second (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW_qd7HGaCM&feature=youtu.be&list=PL2BFacqBImNUsfZ4L-lceAaQ6exvybi1A&t=72) cutscene shows a group of people sitting around a Bhaal-themed table. Apparently, someone they call "Gorion's Ward" is going to be a problem for their vague evil plans.

This is obviously meant to set up the plot of Throne of Bhaal. "Gorion's Ward" is the series' official title for CHARNAME. The series doesn't actually establish that until ToB, but it will be retroactive canon, like a lot of ToB. It's pretty clear that the character designs hadn't been finalised yet, because these all look like humans to me, but at least they remembered to throw a female voice in there.

https://s8.postimg.cc/r57au6w85/QVi_Fw2t.png (https://postimages.org/)
Picture (https://www.imgur.com/QViFw2t)

If you have Throne of Bhaal installed, the expansion will start up immediately. But that's a different topic for a different thread.

The book's ending comes very close to working, but it falls short. That almost makes it worse.

See, in a better book, this could actually be a very satisfying capstone for Abdel's personal arc. Our hero has always defined himself through conflict - violent, armed conflict. He was a bully (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22153355&postcount=176) as a child, and he went out to become a mercenary as soon as he could hold a sword. He has fought his way across the Realms, not for a cause or even for gold but because he likes fighting. He has no other skills and indeed no other interests, apart from the occasional bit of hunger or lust. (Before the first book, he didn't even know what "arm-wrestling" is.) The circumstances may have changed since the first book, but at his core, he's still a fighter. Well, a Fighter, actually. It isn't just part of his identity, it defines him.

One remarkably consistent thing about Abdel is that he has never backed down from a fight. I think that's deliberate. Remember, he has not only superhuman strength but also superhuman vitality; he doesn't get tired and his injuries heal within seconds. Abdel will eventually win any conventional fight, either through force or through sheer attrition, and he knows it. He has no use for tactics or discretion.

The notion of disengaging, of winning by not fighting... that should be completely foreign to him. More than that, it should be alien, like introducing a Flatlander to the concept of "the third dimension." Realising that this is possible would be a huge epiphany for him, something that shows how much he has grown as a person. (Indeed, showing that he has become more of a person.) "I want to go home" is a good way to follow that up, too, since it's so different from Abdel's previous lifestyle.

But... it isn't earned. The setup just isn't there. This needed to be a consistent theme throughout the book, not something that suddenly pops up in the last chapter.

I can't help but feel that tying it to Abdel's love for Jaheira cheapens the whole thing. I mean, I get why people write stories about love. It's a powerful thing, and it can be redemptive, even if I don't personally like that kind of story. But it also kinda hurts Abdel's character arc.
It would be one thing if his love for Jaheira led him to develop a sort of more general empathy for others, but that's not what happens. Rather, Abdel's character development (such as it is) exists only in relation to Jaheira. This is actually explicit in the text; if Abdel stops to think about something, his thoughts are always about looking good in front of Jaheira. This might be a decent starting point, but Abdel stagnates there. He doesn't have an epiphany, he just sort of... remembers that Jaheira exists and that he wants here. (It doesn't help that Jaheira is absent for half the novel. We never get a quiet moment between the two, and I'm not sold on the romance.) I should note that something similar happened in the first book (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22187700&postcount=187), but this book doesn't really add anything. It just rehashes the plot.

This is sort of heading in the direction of more general criticism, so I think I'll call it a day here. I want to take some time to tall about the book as a whole, but that really deserves its own post. I hope to see you again next week, one more time, when we'll be doing the dreaded full review.

So... now that the book is done and the credits have rolled, what's next? I have one last update planned, probably in a week or so, where I'll talk about the book from a big-picture perspective. I think I have a decent handle on why the book fails so badly, and I'd like to discuss a few larger trends that aren't really visible if you go chapter by chapter. I also have a fan theory I want to share. Maybe I'll be able to dig up some more trivia as well, but no promises. After that, we'll turn this into an open thread, I think. See you next week, for the grand finale!

... oh, and one more thing. Now's probably a good time to talk about Shadows of Amn as a whole, since we won't have (m)any chances for more AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION activities. Which part of the game did you like best, and why? Does anything in particular stand out in your memory? What (if anything) stuck with you?

For me, it's definitely the semi-open nature of Chapter II. You have a clear goal, but you also have narrative permission to go faffing about and doing sidequests for a bit. In fact, faffing about is kind of the point of that chapter. Even modern open-world RPGs tend to mess this one up.

How about you? Any favourite bits of content?

Kish

2018-06-30, 09:56 AM

No questions asked, no Reputation stat checked, no way to make up for it. Give in once, and that's it. You belong to the Yugoloths (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoloth) now, thanks for playing, enjoy your bad ending in Throne of Bhaal.

Actually, your alignment doesn't determine, or even affect, which ending you get in Throne of Bhaal--only what you say to the solar does that.

Irenicus dies with a face full of bees. Geez, Jaheira.

Bees. My god.

Spore

2018-07-01, 08:11 AM

This is because Imgur changed its hotlinking policy. (In short: They're banned.)

Great so a page that let's you upload pictures in exchange for advertisement doesn't allow full functionality of uploaded pictures anymore. And it even has more added and invasive advertisement. Goodbye.

Jaheira stops after breaking off a fingernail. Since she's run out of other options, she decides to ask for help.

Nothing says "desperate" like stopping to rescue your lover after a minor injury.

So... the gods have been forbidden from intervening in the Bhaalspawn situation, and no god ever wants to be the first one to break the rules.

Sending mortal placeholders seems like cheating anyway. It's a weird game the gods are playing.

"Only Abdel mattered." Sometimes, my job is really easy. The bit about the fires going out also suggests that the draining of the Tree actually wasn't finished yet. That makes Irenicus' decision to go to Hell even more baffling. Finish what you started, Jon.

Jon sounds like a megalomaniac part of middle management, trying to spin as many plates as he can before ultimatively being buried under a mountain of shards.

This is how our big narrative climax is resolved: Three people gathering and pressing X to Abdel.

I am very lenient when it comes to bad writing. But that is just....insultingly bad writing. It's like saving Tinkerbell except without the charm.

And that's the end of Bhaal is Dead! by Philip Athans. After this, there's a bunch of ads for R. A. Salvatore novels, and then the cover text.

:smallannoyed::smallannoyed::smallannoyed::smallan noyed: :smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfu rious::smallfurious:

"I want to go home" is a good way to follow that up, too, since it's so different from Abdel's previous lifestyle.

The setup is terrible on this. I am sorry but that whole name chanting business ruins it for me. It is so much childbook, and less epic battle about the soul of the Lord of Murder.

Maybe if Jaheira, Ellisime and Imoen would have adressed him by their relationship: He is not just Abdel. He is "brother" to Imoen, "hero" to Ellisime, "Abdel" or "lover" to Jaheira.

This is a notable change from the first Baldur's Gate. That game looked at your Reputation stat to figure out whether you got the evil dreams or the good ones, not CHARNAME's alignment, which is a form of Consequentialism. SoA, however, takes a hard turn into Virtue ethics, and ToB will continue that theme. Which is weird, because the Bhaalspawn saga has strong consequentalist themes. Is evil something you are, or something you do?

The bold part is basically ANY alignment debate on this forum. Ever. And between editions it shifts wildly in between both.

Which part of the game did you like best, and why?

It sounds cheesy, but the Windspear Hills dungeon and the Umar Hills/Shadow Temple. Both because it emphasizes the DUNGEONS and DRAGONS theme, because red dragons are just classy and because a battle of literal physical dark (shadows) vs. light is so cool if well done.

Often games want to innovate where a well done classic is sufficient. Of course Watcher's Keep was a cool idea, but the area seems weird from a story perspective. As for storylines, I enjoyed Haer'Dalis extraplanar adventures (as well as the Sphere of the Mage) because it hints at so much more. This is where the game itself showed that the real pen and paper thing is capable of so much more.

Really everywhere where you saw borders just because of the limitations of the game engine, where it didn't just spawn an invisibile wall but wrote a small fluff text about "the tunnel leading nowhere" or "the infinite plane extending before you that is probably too dangerous" and whatnot.

It is a stylistic choice because it didn't need such prompts for that. But it sells the actual game so much better and it is the reason why I got into it so heavily. Of course anywhere with good worldbuilding is nice for this (Harpers have a much richer backstory than the game shows, the Underdark is very developed, the forgotten temple of Amaunator makes you think how worship was back in its times)

Khay

2018-07-07, 08:43 AM

It sounds cheesy, but the Windspear Hills dungeon and the Umar Hills/Shadow Temple. Both because it emphasizes the DUNGEONS and DRAGONS theme, because red dragons are just classy and because a battle of literal physical dark (shadows) vs. light is so cool if well done.

A fine choice! These are pretty traditional and straightforward sidequest dungeons, but they're really well-made. The designers had an eye for this sort of thing. I think part of the reason I don't like ToB as much is that it loses a lot of, you know, traditional dungeoneering.

So... here it is. The promised final update. We finished the book (and the game) last week, but I want to put a little capstone on the thread. That's going to be this post.

For the last book, we also had a little "bonus content" section. Unfortunately, as far as I can tell, even Dragon Magazine didn't really bother to shill for this book. There are a few ads, maybe a paragraph on the "upcoming releases" page, but that's it. We'll have to go straight to the full review. Sorry!

As with the previous book, I'll look at Bhaal is Dead! from two different perspectives before giving my opinion on the book as a whole. Does this book hold up as an adaptation of the game? And does it work as a book? I'm sure you are all quite tired of hearing my complaints that Abdel is dumb, so... think of this as more of a summary.

Before we dive in, I want to emphasize that this all my personal opinion. I'll try to lay out my reasoning, so it's not arbitrary, but still. As always, I'd love to hear your thoughts as well. That can be the AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION for our final update.

As an adaptation, this book is a clear failure. I don't think there's any way around that. It's true that the novel manages to mostly replicate the events of the game, and it does a decent job at "feeling like D&D," but it systematically misses everything that made the game so special.

Let's step back a little. Baldur's Gate - as in, the original game - was a smash hit. It's one of the games that revived the WRPG genre, and it made Bioware a household name overnight. It also gave us the "BioWare formula," an approach to RPG creation that would serve them well for almost two decades.
Given the success of Baldur's Gate, expectations were high for the sequel... and Shadows of Amn completely blew them out of the water. It was everything that Baldur's Gate was and so much more. This game, more than any other, codified what it means to be a western RPG: A freely designed protagonist, a semi-open world combined with a well-written linear main plot, recruitable companions with well-defined personalities and deep backstories, interactions between said companions, romance sidequests that slowly unfold over time, challenging tactical combat, and just enough introspection and genre deconstruction to keep things interesting. SoA may not have invented those things, but it brought a level of polish not seen before. Shadows of Amn was a high-water mark for WRPG design, and it held on to that position for quite some time.

The novel manages to capture absolutely none of that. To be fair, some of SoA's core features would've been difficult to translate. A game is, after all, very different from a book. Games are interactive while books are non-interactive, and games tend to last much longer than books. (Games can also have more repetition, usually in the form of the central gameplay loop.) We've talked about emergent storytelling through gameplay mechanics before, and free-form exploration is a big part of what defines Shadows of Amn. That sense of freedom and discovery is difficult to replicate in a linear medium.

That said, it's not like the novel actually did better in the areas that could have been translated. So I'm going to start by complaining about something that could have been translated: The characters. The game's massive cast is reduced to about three main protagonists (Abdel, Jaheira, Imoen) and two main antagonists (Irenicus, Bodhi), with a few minor characters making guest appearances (Yoshimo, Minsc). The characters that do make it across are... echhh.
To start with an example we haven't yet discussed to death, look at poor Saemon Havarian. Athans clearly has no idea what to do with the character, and thus he gets him completely wrong. Saemon is set up as an archetypal trickster - a clever, dashing, fast-talking, swashbuckling rogue. Pirates of the Caribbean was released after Shadows of Amn, but it's easy to see that Jack Sparrow and Saemon Havarian share a common ancestor. This is a long-standing archetype - the cheerfully selfish pirate captain with a chequered past, a chip on his shoulder, a rakishly crooked smile and a heart of gold. Han Solo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Solo#Star_Wars) is another great example. It's a popular archetype. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html)
Except... it's not quite that easy. Saemon doesn't actually have a secret heart of gold. He keeps setting you up to take the fall for his shenanigans, then offers to bail you out to make up for it, then stabs you in the back as part of the bail-out. Ultimately, he just gets you deeper in trouble every time, while avoiding the consequences of his own behavior. This pattern starts with the food poisoning on Brynnlaw, and it continues well into Throne of Bhaal.
Saemon is one of those quick-witted characters who can get out of anything (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anansi_Boys)... but since CHARNAME is on the receiving end of his antics, we can see that he's actually kind of a douche. Captain Havarian is one of the more controversial characters of the franchise, (http://www.sorcerers.net/community/threads/killing-saemon-havarian.22108/) but that may have been the design intent. This is what I mean when I say that Shadows of Amn has an unusual degree of introspection. Saemon Havarian is a deliberate subversion of the "charming rogue" cliché; stories about tricksters are usually written from the trickster's perspective, since it really would be incredibly aggravating to be the target, and that's the point here.
Meanwhile, in the novel, Saemon is a complete non-entity. He appears in two chapters (though he only has dialogue in one), and he's exactly what he seems to be: A miserable old drunk who owns a rowing boat. The game's Saemon is a fascinating character study, and a great deconstruction of the trickster archetype, while the book's Saemon is just... he's just nothing. You could cut him from the narrative and nobody would notice.

The novel not only loses all of the interesting complexities that are present in the game, it even messes up the superficial characteristics. It's like the author had Havarian described to him as "a washed-up pirate captain" and retained no other information about the character. Havarian is barely even in this book. He makes a cameo, but the point of a cameo is usually fanservice; the book's Havarian resembles the game's Havarian so little, I can't imagine any fan of the game was actually pleased to see the guy.
And Saemon isn't even the worst example. No, that would be Minsc, who goes from being a brave champion of justice to being a maid. Saemon can sort of be explained by thoughtlessness, but the book is so cruel to Minsc, it feels like malice. The original Minsc was comic relief, that's true, but he had character. He had dignity.
We talked about this sometime in 2017 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?544430-Let-s-Read-amp-Play-Baldurs-Gate-II-Bhaal-is-Dead!&p=22710518&viewfull=1#post22710518) - the Minsc of the games is so much more than this. The Minsc of the book is basically a sticky note that says "haha lol brain damage XD." As with Saemon, it would've been a mercy to just cut him from the book.
Not all characters are as catastrophically bad as Minsc or Saemon, but I struggle to think of a good adaptation. There are a few characters who do okay, like Imoen and Yoshimo and Elhan, but they too had most of their complexities sand-blasted off. (Remember how forthcoming Book!Elhan was with embarassing information? Remember how Game!Elhan wasn't like that?) Dr. Buttcape himself fares no better; Irenicus is little more than a standard-issue mad wizard now. There is maybe a small attempt at complexity with Bodhi, who becomes a literal sexual predator, but... it just doesn't work.

Something similar has happened to the setting as a whole. The city of Athkatla - huge, sprawling quest hub Athkatla - is reduced to three buildings. The same happens to Ust Natha, to Brynnlaw, to Suldanessalar... we visit many different places, but we never really get to see anything about them. The book rushes from plot point to plot point, and it never takes the time to flesh out any of the places we visit. This section is long enough already, though, so I'll just point to Chapter Eighteen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?544430-Let-s-Read-amp-Play-Baldurs-Gate-II-Bhaal-is-Dead!&p=23012329#post23012329), where I complained at length. The Forgotten Realms are an incredibly rich setting, full of interesting places to visit and potential story hooks to pick up, but... again, absolutely none of that is present in the novel.

I've noted this before, but I want to be really clear about this: The novel is shorter than the game, but it is not merely "streamlined." It is not "concise" or "focused." It is straightforwardly less than the game. It tells the same story, presents the same characters and visits the same places... just worse. Some degree of streamlining was inevitable, but this book somehow manages to keep all the filler while throwing out all the meat. I guess it's not as bad an adaptation as Bhaal Must Be Stopped! - Jaheira can cast healing spells now! - but that's very faint praise indeed.

So... yeah. This is pretty dire.

That leaves the second category. If you try to pretend that Shadows of Amn never existed, is this a good book?

That's a difficult question to answer. The book only exists because of the game, and it is something of a companion piece to the game. The book doesn't really work as a "stand-alone" experience, because it relies on D&D knowledge. For example, the magic system is never explained in either book, and everything about the Underdark would be incomprehensible to a reader who is not already familiar with Forgotten Realms worldbuilding.

Let's take this one step at a time. Does it hold up as a generic D&D-ish work? Is the craftsmanship acceptable?

First of all, a lot of individual scenes actually do work quite well. I've noted before that the author is good with action scenes, and he comes up with interesting setpieces now and then. There is even some evidence to suggest that an editor at least skimmed the book. That's good! Athans has a background in writing and editing adventure modules, and it shows. He does a good job playing to his strengths.
The book is not very good at connecting those scenes, though. The overall plot structure has a lot of problems. Athans relies heavily on the "villain secretly strings the hero along" plot to connect the individual scenes. The villain reveals his scheme to the readers, the hero stumbles blindly into the scheme, the scheme is stopped through narrative fiat, the villain cackles and reveals that this too was part of the scheme. This pattern repeats over and over, to the point where it becomes comical. You can do this once, maybe twice, but it's supremely important that the scheme actually makes sense in hindsight. Well, it doesn't. In fact, the scheme is deliberately left vague, which makes me think the author realised there was a problem but couldn't think of a way to fix it. Curiously, the first book had the exact same problem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22308996&postcount=231).

Relying on standard narratives is not neccessarily a bad thing, if a bit unambitious. You can write a decent book by assembling pre-built plot structures and placing stock characters in them. You'll never write the next Night Watch (https://pratchettjob.wordpress.com/2015/05/15/revolution-night-watch/) that way, not even the next Colour of Magic (https://pratchettjob.wordpress.com/2014/11/06/i-love-a-magician-the-colour-of-magic/), but you'll give your readers an adequate time and that's still pretty neat. You can have your unsuspecting farm boy with a special destiny, your evil wizard emperor, your sidekicks, your tragically doomed mentor and/or hometown, your swords-based setting full of mostly white people and just... kinda take it from there. As an example, consider Star Wars. A New Hope is a very archetypal story (Hero's Journey (https://www.google.com/search?q=star+wars+hero's+journey)), but the sci-fi setting brings just enough innovation to the table, and it absolutely nails the execution.

This book... this book does not get the execution right. The author does set up all these standard building blocks, but he doesn't really seem to understand how they work. This is most visible in the final chapter, but it's kind of a running theme throughout the book. The parts are there - the Mad Wizard, the Sassy Rogue, the Morally Conflicted Swordsperson, the Dying Elven Queen - but they don't fit together right. Athans keeps fumbling important details in the execution. The author is good with setting up interesting scenarios, but he relies too heavily on narrative fiat to actually resolve them..
Consider the Underdark (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?544430-Let-s-Read-amp-Play-Baldurs-Gate-II-Bhaal-is-Dead!&p=22961324#post22961324) subplot. It's clear what the author was going for; the Sassy Rogue outwits the Trusted Vizier, discovers an Evil Plan, and stops it just in time. (And also picks up some Treasure Type O along the way.) That's a standard plot of the kind you can find in just about every James Bond movie. Except that's not quite what happens. Imoen doesn't have to think on her feet to survive in an unfamiliar environment, she just gets promoted and whisked away for no reason. Imoen doesn't persuade/seduce Phaere into giving up the information, Phaere just yells it out for no reason.
The Hell segment is another good example. It clearly moves in the direction of the villain tempting the hero / the hero almost giving in, but it doesn't have the right amount of setup, and the "power of love" conclusion comes basically out of nowhere. That sort of thing. I'm going to cut it off here, because I'd just be repeating myself. This book has a number of fundamental flaws that keep popping up in slightly different configurations.

Ultimately, I don't think Bhaal is Dead! manages to be workable genre fiction. It comes closer than Bhaal must be Stopped!, sure, but it doesn't really get there. The books are a little too Abdel-centric, a little too light on character-driven drama and a little too reliant on contrived concidences (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?544430-Let-s-Read-amp-Play-Baldurs-Gate-II-Bhaal-is-Dead!&p=22961324#post22961324) and repetitive action scenes. This was not an enjoyable read.

So where does that leave us? Well... I made some excuses for the first book. In retrospect, I shouldn't have done that - the first book was doomed by its circumstances, but that doesn't mean it wasn't bad. It was a book written by a first-time author, who was given an incomplete script, an impossible deadline and a hyper-literate, well-connected and vocally unpleasable fanbase. It doesn't mean the book wasn't bad, but it does provide an explanation for why it was bad. (Check out what our friends over on alt.games.baldurs-gate (https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.baldurs-gate/Eu_MVq1LhVE/82fK37DMn20J) had to say about the novel. (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.games.baldurs-gate/novel|sort:date/alt.games.baldurs-gate/hmHSdHYxFqQ/nG1LBIkRBCAJ))

But this book? No excuses. They should have known better. This is not a mistake you can make twice.

With that out of the way, let's see where Bhaal is Dead! ends up. I'm going to set up an arbitrary ten-point scale for fantasy fiction, so we have some points of reference. This is somewhat subjective, but here's where I personally am:

>9: The best of the best. Shows up on "best books of the century" lists compiled by actual serious critics. Books that expand your world. These works are rare and special; one that comes to mind is Small Gods by Terry Pratchett.

8-9: Incredibly well-written, genre-defining works that spawn a million imitators. You know them when you see them, and you probably do know them. Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings, that kind of thing.

7-8: Very good, often wildly popular, but not without flaws. Works in this category can be the subject of bitter arguments among critics, or between critics and the general public. Harry Potter is a good example.

4-6: Varying degrees of mediocre. Books with good ideas but poor execution belong here, such as The Automatic Detective (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1265289.The_Automatic_Detective) or Barricade (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/21080346-barricade). Generic and derivative but well-written books also fall in this range. Critics rarely pay attention to this category. Popular targets for movie adaptations.

3-4: Bad, but still functional (if barely). Redeeming qualities may exist. Sometimes caters to a niche audience, so readers are willing to put up with the writing. Sometimes make for decent snark fodder. Twilight lives here, though the later novels drop in quality.

2-3: Broken. Technically, these still qualify as "books," since they contain letters that are arranged into word-like shapes, but that's the best thing you can say about them. You'll probably write a 3 if you don't have an editor, or if you can override their decisions because your parents own the company. At best you might find some guilty pleasures here, like Fifty Shades (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifty_Shades_(novel_series)), or funny-bad works like like The Eye of Argon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eye_of_Argon) or Maradonia™ and the Seven Bridges (http://conjugalfelicity.com/maradonia/).

<2: Toxic. These books have catastrophically bad writing, and they also tend to be way too cozy with certain nameless real-world evils. These aren't even fun to snark at. Fifty Shades edges into this category at times, but Gor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gor) or The Domination of the Draka (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Domination) are much clearer examples. This is where critics are important, because someone has to do the intellectual equivalent of hazmat cleanup when novels like this drop.

Looking at the examples, it's clear that the book belongs nowhere near the upper tiers. At the same time, as bad as this book is, I don't think it deserves to go into the trash pile. Maybe the surface of the trash pile. You know, in the trash, but it still gets some air? This isn't the absolute worst book I've ever read. Maybe this is just Stockholm syndrome speaking, but... while I really disliked Bhaal is Dead!, I can't quite bring myself to hate it. I hated some aspects of it, like what they did to poor Minsc, or how useless most of the characters were, or the endless repetition of the same handful of plot elements, but as a whole it's more sad than offensive. If the first book seemed to be actively cruel, this book is more... thoughtless.
I think I'd give this book something like a 3 or maybe a 3.5, compared to the previous book's 2.5. I don't think this book is toxic or broken, but I don't think it's good or even mediocre. 4 definitely seems too high. I think that Bhaal is Dead! exists somewhere in the same neighborhood as Twilight, but (and I can't believe I'm writing this) at least Twilight had interesting worldbuilding at some points. Okay, so I don't hate Twilight as much as most critics do, so maybe I should use Eragon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eragon) as a base of comparison instead.

Actually, that's a good verdict. If Bhaal Must Be Stopped! ranked above Gor but below Eragon, then I feel like Bhaal is Dead! slots in somewhere between Eragon and Twilight.

That said, you can't pretend that this book somehow exists in isolation. In the end, you have to remember that it's an adaptation. The gap between Bhaal is Dead! and Shadows of Amn is just so much bigger than the gap between Bhaal must be Stopped! and Baldur's Gate. In the end, that's the real problem, and that's why this book is a failure.

So there we have it: Bhaal is Dead! by Philip Athans. I can't say I had a good time reading this book, but the thread was a lot of fun, and you all added a lot to it. I think having different perspectives is vital for this sort of thing. (Maybe I need to get a co-author.) I'd love to hear your thoughts about the book - and my review, for that matter. Do you think I was fair? Too harsh? Not harsh enough? Anything you particularly liked or disliked?

There is one more book in the series - Death to the Children of Bhaal! by Drew Karpyshyn. I do want to finish the series, but I can't tell you when or how I'll be able do that. I've streamlined the process a lot, and I managed to improve the production values a bit, but this still took a ridiculous amount of work. I had to put a lot of things on hold to make time for this. Plus, I don't actually know Throne of Bhaal very well. So, no promises; for now, I'd just like to say... thank you all for reading along.