Why did the vampire agree to not vamp Z in 908?

[Peelee]

Z had access to teleportation spells, and would have solved the issue of getting to the Godsmoot much more easily than flitting around Tinkertown with Roy trying to get the information volunteered. Obviously, the Giant wanted the Order with him when he went, but from his perspective, his goals could be achieved easiest by insta-vamping Z and having them teleport. What's an in-universe reason for him throwing away a resource like that?

[Kish]

He only had a few seconds to decide how to respond to Nale's offer, and Greg's made it pretty clear that when in doubt, he defaults to bloodthirsty and sadistic. It's entirely possible that, somewhere during the fight with Tarquin's army, it occurred to him hey, I could just have turned that drow into a vampire and made him teleport me here, but it was too late then.

(And for that matter, it's also quite possible that Vampire Zz'dtri would have helpfully informed Greg that he had no more teleport spells prepared that day, leaving him with his cover blown and everyone around against him.)

[martianmister]

Z is an elf, his/her vampire spirit probably belongs to the western god/dess of death. So, his/her vampire spirit probably wouldn't follow the northern goddess of death's secret plan.

[Euclidodese]

Also, Nale was attacking him. He wouldn't have been able to vamp Z until after Nale was out of the action, meaning leaving Z unconscious with the potential of Nale healing him back to positive hit points, and Z blasting him/escaping, or Nale just escaping with unconscious Z, since Dimension Door allows you to take one ally with you.

[Peelee]

Z is an elf, his/her vampire spirit probably belongs to the western god/dess of death. So, his/her vampire spirit probably wouldn't follow the northern goddess of death's secret plan.

Yet Z would be under The dwarf's control until released. His plans and heritage don't matter.

[King of Nowhere]

Seems like a combination of "snap decision he may have regretted later" and "nale was there to interfere and it was too dangerous to wait the several rounds needed to vamp z" is the bet answer

[Fyraltari]

Can you cast "protection from the sun" on a dead body? Cause if you can't there's little point in trying to vamp a guy on a sunny day in a desert.

Also I'm already surprised that every Cleric vampire was okay with helping a goddess destroy the world, so a non-Cleric would probably be pushing it.

Edit: Oh right some of those probably are thralls. Can you re-thrall a vampire after freeing him if disagrees with you?

[martianmister]

Yet Z would be under The dwarf's control until released. His plans and heritage don't matter.

That's a good point. I agree then, it doesn't make much sense for him to not vamp Z. :smallconfused:

[DataNinja]

What's an in-universe reason for him throwing away a resource like that?

I just went back and checked, at no point after vampirization did Durkon at all see Z teleport. In which case, he might not have realized/had time to dig through Durkon's memories to know that Z could actually cast teleport. Especially if he didn't really have much self-thought as a thrall, he might have mostly been acting on instinctive reactions upon being freed.

[Vendanna]

That's a good point. I agree then, it doesn't make much sense for him to not vamp Z. :smallconfused:

Its dangerous, you need to kill the drow by blood drain while nale its still around, somehow protect the body from the sun effect, then you have a thrall which retains all its spellcastings waiting for a chance to get mindblanked and insta petrify you. and if that's not good, that drow can use "scry and die tactics" at any moment durkula try to prepare spells.

Too risky, especially knowing that the entire linear guild goes all out on small slights, and worse, if freed the drow can generate SPAWN to prepare and fight durkula later.

It was way more safe to just remove the drow from the equation.

[Fish]

Can you cast "protection from the sun" on a dead body? Cause if you can't there's little point in trying to vamp a guy on a sunny day in a desert.
Are you sure Dukula could not cast Protection from Sunlight on Z, using the staff? What's he doing here? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0932.html) If that's not the Protection from Sunlight spell, he's sure walking around (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0934.html) pretty freely afterward.

On the other hand, if the casting time for Protection from Sunlight is any longer than 1 standard action, then Z is toast even if Durkula can cast the spell. Casting time on both Protection From Evil and Protection from Energy is 1 standard action, and valid target is "creature touched," which implies casting it on a dead body doesn't work. Ditto if the "accelerate raise vampire" effect takes longer than 1 standard round. Perhaps raise + protection takes too long?

In answer to the question: Durkula knew about Elan's plan to call for help, because Durkon sent the message himself; walking around with a Drow would draw unwanted attention; he could always use Wind Walk to get to the Godsmoot if necessary and ditch the party at a later time.

[Jasdoif]

Oh right some of those probably are thralls. Can you re-thrall a vampire after freeing him if disagrees with you?No, once an enslaved spawn is freed, it cannot be enslaved again (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm).


Casting time on both Protection From Evil and Protection from Energy is 1 standard action, and valid target is "creature touched," which implies casting it on a dead body doesn't work.It doesn't work. As a subject that came up often enough for the 3.5 FAQ to state it two different ways; a (non-undead) corpse is an object, not a creature.

[Emanick]

It also seems likely that the vampire didn’t yet know he would need to teleport to the Godsmoot. The gate had exploded, what, less than two minutes earlier? The meeting probably hadn’t been called yet.

[Peelee]

So the spur-of-the-moment decision seems like the best answer so far. Barring that, inability to cast Protection from Daylight and the Godsmoot likely not being called yet work very well together regardless.

[137beth]

HPoH was almost out of spells, and he knew Z had used a bunch of his spells too. Vampirization didn't renew the spell slots Durkon had used, so presumably they wouldn't have recovered Z's slots, either. So, as far as HPoH knew, Z could be out or nearly out of spells, which would have left the two of them with no quick way out of the desert. And, with both a hostile Order and Nale nearby, one or both of them could be destroyed before they have a chance to refresh their spells. HPoH may have thought getting away would be easier with the Order, especially if he didn't expect Tarquin to arrive.

Then again, if HPoH did know or guess Tarquin's impending arrival, then he might have feared Tarquin would hunt after Vampire Z and himself if they found out from Nale what happened, and he'd have little hope escaping them without being able to cast. I don't know how HPoH could have guessed Tarquin would show up, though.

[Thaumic]

Z is an elf, his/her vampire spirit probably belongs to the western god/dess of death. So, his/her vampire spirit probably wouldn't follow the northern goddess of death's secret plan.

Sorry to ask a somewhat unrelated question, but I didn't realize Z's gender was ambiguous. I thought that gag was reserved to V and their family. Did I miss something indicating otherwise?

[Emanick]

Sorry to ask a somewhat unrelated question, but I didn't realize Z's gender was ambiguous. I thought that gag was reserved to V and their family. Did I miss something indicating otherwise?

I think you’re right and that Z has always been clearly male. Clarity is the opposite of ambiguity, after all.

Also, I think I disagree with those arguing that vampirizing Zz’dtri would have made it harder for Durkon* to assimilate into the party. He had a literal devil under his control and the Order was fine with that. Saying “I’ve got Z vampirized and under my control” likely would have flown as well, especially given how much danger the Order was in.

[unbeliever536]

Z had access to teleportation spells, and would have solved the issue of getting to the Godsmoot much more easily than flitting around Tinkertown with Roy trying to get the information volunteered. Obviously, the Giant wanted the Order with him when he went, but from his perspective, his goals could be achieved easiest by insta-vamping Z and having them teleport. What's an in-universe reason for him throwing away a resource like that?

As has been mentioned, it's possible he wasn't created with the plan in his head. We don't know exactly how the vampirization process works, so it's possible Greg didn't know about his mistress's plan until he was able to commune with her that evening.

[Cifer]

Also, I think I disagree with those arguing that vampirizing Zz’dtri would have made it harder for Durkon* to assimilate into the party. He had a literal devil under his control and the Order was fine with that. Saying “I’ve got Z vampirized and under my control” likely would have flown as well, especially given how much danger the Order was in.I disagree. Yeah, the devil is clearly evil, but it is also extremely short-term. Vampires spawning makes people more likely to realize that they're essentially an epidemic waiting to happen.

[Sylian]

Also, I think I disagree with those arguing that vampirizing Zz’dtri would have made it harder for Durkon* to assimilate into the party. He had a literal devil under his control and the Order was fine with that. Saying “I’ve got Z vampirized and under my control” likely would have flown as well, especially given how much danger the Order was in.He summoned the devil while he was still a thrall, though. I doubt the Order would have been very happy with vampire Z.

[Peelee]

To everyone talking about the Order's reaction to Vampire Z, there's no reason that Vampire D would need to have Vampire Z tag along. Malak thought of thralls as children, and while newly vamped creatures do need to learn things (such as Vampire D sticking his foot but in the sun), he could simply order Vampire Z to hide in a dark, safe spot and do nothing except defend himself until new orders are given. Vampire D has Sending, so her could completely hide the new vamp from the Order, in theory.

Of course, this is all academic and probably wouldn't make for a good story in any case.

[Fish]

It [casting creature-targeted spells on a body] doesn't work. As a subject that came up often enough for the 3.5 FAQ to state it two different ways; a (non-undead) corpse is an object, not a creature.
My point was that there could only be one sequence: raise Z as a vampire (1+ standard action), then cast protection (1+ standard action). Vampire Z may have had at least 1 round unprotected in the sunlight, precisely because the reverse order was not permitted.

[Jasdoif]

My point was that there could only be one sequence: raise Z as a vampire (1+ standard action), then cast protection (1+ standard action). Vampire Z may have had at least 1 round unprotected in the sunlight, precisely because the reverse order was not permitted.Exactly. Casting protection from sunlight on Zz'dtri's inanimate corpse would fail entirely (if the target isn't valid for the spell, the spell's wasted); for it to have any effect it'd have to be cast after Zz'dtri was animated (as a vampire), and as you noted the timing can't work unless either of those spells have cast times faster than a standard action (which looks unlikely).

If HPoH had some means to block the sunlight for a round, that could've worked; but being out of spells and Nale being right there makes that extremely unlikely. (I suddenly have a mental image of HPoH building a sand castle big enough to cast the size of shadow vampire Zz'dtri would need...Maybe if HPoH had managed to kill Nale too)

[Peelee]

(I suddenly have a mental image of HPoH building a sand castle big enough to cast the size of shadow vampire Zz'dtri would need...Maybe if HPoH had managed to kill Nale too)

Well that's just silly.

Clearly, the sand castle would be his grave, spring him to naturally rise after 3 nights. Upon which, sending, teleport, world's end.

[Kish]

I disagree. Yeah, the devil is clearly evil, but it is also extremely short-term. Vampires spawning makes people more likely to realize that they're essentially an epidemic waiting to happen.
I think more of a concern is that the presumption that Vampire Durkon was simply Durkon implied that either:
1) Zz'dtri would be freed eventually and would revert to being someone who had been consistently an enemy to the Order, more powerful than before.
2) Zz'dtri would not be freed eventually, meaning Vampire Durkon was fine with turning an enemy into a puppet, dragging him along as long as he was useful, and then destroying him in cold blood...which would indicate a big change in Durkon's moral perspective.

[NerdyKris]

Durkon didn't know where the Godsmoot was being held (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0985.html). He needed the Order to help him find the information in the first place, and clerics were more likely to help a band of mortal adventurers trying to raise their friend than two vampires with a shady story. The Order also was more likely to survive the encounter than Nale was. And as mentioned, he wouldn't have been able to cast protection from sunlight in time.

Plus, I feel like Nale would have informed everyone of the vampire spawn immediately, ruining Durkon's cover.

[Peelee]

Durkon didn't know where the Godsmoot was being held (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0985.html). He needed the Order to help him find the information in the first place

I always thought he was fishing for information so that the Order would know about the Godsmoot. After all, the high priest should know where the Godsmoot, since they need to attend; the god can just tell them directly. He was trying to hide the fact that he was serving a different god, since the Order knew that he wasn't Thor's high priest, and thus shouldn't know where the Godsmoot was.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Durkon didn't know where the Godsmoot was being held (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0985.html). He needed the Order to help him find the information in the first place, and clerics were more likely to help a band of mortal adventurers trying to raise their friend than two vampires with a shady story. The Order also was more likely to survive the encounter than Nale was. And as mentioned, he wouldn't have been able to cast protection from sunlight in time.

Plus, I feel like Nale would have informed everyone of the vampire spawn immediately, ruining Durkon's cover.

Greg knew exactly where the Godsmoot was being held (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html), and only needed Roy to help him get there.

With access to a teleportation-ready wizard, Greg would not have needed to rejoin Roy at all, nor pretended to be Durkon for any length of time.

GW

[Jasdoif]

I always thought he was fishing for information so that the Order would know about the Godsmoot.He was. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html)

I think a bigger point in that comic, though, is that the Godsmoot was called with three days' notice, meaning it'd been called two days ago (since the Godsmoot was the next day); it'd been at least three days (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0952.html) (and twelve-ish hours (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0956.html)) of travel time before the Order got to Tinkertown, so the Godsmoot hadn't been called when Malack was destroyed (so HPoH couldn't have known about it then).

[Stabbey]

2) Zz'dtri would not be freed eventually, meaning Vampire Durkon was fine with turning an enemy into a puppet, dragging him along as long as he was useful, and then destroying him in cold blood...which would indicate a big change in Durkon's moral perspective.

So, turning an enemy into a puppet (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0835.html), dragging him as long as he was useful (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0840.html), and then letting them die once useless (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0848.html) is wrong (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0838.html), you say?

[Peelee]

So, turning an enemy into a puppet (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0835.html), dragging him as long as he was useful (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0840.html), and then letting them die once useless (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0848.html) is wrong (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0838.html), you say?

I wonder if anyone ever talked about Durkon's involvement in not stopping that. Or V's involvement in that.

Probably not.

[Kish]

Hi. I'm the Vice-Leader of the Vaarsuvius Hatedom. Yes, "He's been lowered to the moral level of the loathsome Vaarsuvius the Vile" would indicate a change in Durkon's moral standing.

(oppyu came up with the titles.)

[Jay R]

Because he and Nale're still tha same old d*cks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0907.html).

It seems silly to me that we can't quote the OotS comic in these forums, but the rules are clear.

[Peelee]

Because he and Nale're still tha same old d*cks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0907.html).

Let's be fair here, a vamped Z would be a completely different ****.

[Jasdoif]

Hi. I'm the Vice-Leader of the Vaarsuvius Hatedom. Yes, "He's been lowered to the moral level of the loathsome Vaarsuvius the Vile" would indicate a change in Durkon's moral standing.Even "Vaarsuvius the Erstwhile Caricature of 'Power Corrupts'" would be a distinct change for Durkon.

[Fyraltari]

Let's be fair here, a vamped Z would be a completely different ****.

Would probably talk a lot more for starters.
And for dessert because that and "hates V" are about the only characterization he ever had.

[RatElemental]

Edit: Oh right some of those probably are thralls. Can you re-thrall a vampire after freeing him if disagrees with you?

Not as a thrall, but if you successfully rebuke undead, and have twice as many hit dice as the rebuked undead, you can command it. The command undead spell also gives a decent range of control similar to dominate person, but you have to beat them at a charisma check for anything they wouldn't normally do. Dominate person would also work if you have some obscure way around their immunity to mind affecting effects.

[skaddix]

Does the memory assimilation process while he is still a thrall? Otherwise Vampire Durkon is unlikely to know Z has Teleport at all.

[Peelee]

Does the memory assimilation process while he is still a thrall? Otherwise Vampire Durkon is unlikely to know Z has Teleport at all.

Even if not, presumably the whole thing Nale was making his case, the vampire was getting a huge infodump. Likely including a good deal about Nale and Z, since they were of immediate concern.

[snowblizz]

Let's be fair here, a vamped Z would be a completely different ****.

Which incidentally would be a big mark against a Vamp Z since the comic and the story demanded that the readers and OOTS respectively not know that Vampirism isn't same-person but evil rather than your friend is trapped in hell.

Which after all is the argument *Durkon argues to the OOTs immediately after.

[Unoriginal]

You have two enemies around you, and you have the chance to kill one of them.

The first is a Drow Wizard you know is powerful enough to planeshift you away from the action if needed, and whose built make him great at countering casters (and spells would have been the one way the vampire could have attacked him if the elf flew away).

The second is Nale. Who couldn't even defeat his hated brother even in 2 vs 1.

[Vinyadan]

It only makes sense because Nale didn't leave earlier. Durkon killed the more dangerous opponent first, and then turned to the secondary menace, which ran away. Z could have one-shot Durkon with a dispel, so it made sense to make sure that he was dead. Nale pulling out a wand of healing and targeting Z while Durkon was draining him would have been a problem. Z could have simply teleported out, and come back at full strength and without warning. Or did the Malak trick again.

[Dovetail]

Let's be fair here, a vamped Z would be a completely different ****.

He's evil, so he might actually be in tune with his vamped self.

[Emanick]

He's evil, so he might actually be in tune with his vamped self.

Eh. Most people would probably care more about agency than about whether they particularly approved of the spirit controlling their body.

Although Zz’dtri was always portrayed as a bit of a follower... so maybe he’d be an exception?