Help on optimizing Horizon Walker

[sflame56]

So I am planning on making a Horizon Walker soon and I was trying to find some help trying to optimize them. What I am thinking for them since their Planar Warrior ability takes up your bonus action each turn to make your dmg force dmg. This would be a sword and board ranger with dueling fighting style. I am either between having them be a Human variant and grab a feat early or a dragonborn for dragon hide/ dragon fear or half orc.

For stats going to keep them as such with point by or try to make it this.
Str: 16/17 (17 if dragonborn or half orc)
Dex: 14 (for med armor)
Con: 13/15 (15 if half orc)
Int: 8
Wis: 13/14 (14 if human)
Cha: 9/10 (10 if dragonborn)

I would be focusing on maxing str fast since the way I want to play this character as a hard hitter that jumps to enemy to enemy in fights and smacks them for a lot. This way he is hard to pin down and can end up going for back line enemies easily. With this what feats and spells should I grab to maximize what I can do. If you can keep advice to just players guide and Xanthars it would help.

[Chugger]

No idea if this is really worth doing, but you can get shilelagh from magic init or a 1-dip into druid.

You'd lower str and do wis 16. You use wis as your casting and to-hit/damage stat all in one. Very SAD. Counts as magic. Would suck if you got a crazy good sword or something later on - you're kind of committed to using a stick as a weapon.

[sflame56]

No idea if this is really worth doing, but you can get shilelagh from magic init or a 1-dip into druid.

The thing is horizon walker uses their bonus action to make their dmg force and to add a 1d8 onto it with no rests required. Shilelagh is a bonus action cantrip mean I would lose my ability every time. Also it increases in dmg at 11.

[JNAProductions]

The thing is horizon walker uses their bonus action to make their dmg force and to add a 1d8 onto it with no rests required. Shilelagh is a bonus action cantrip mean I would lose my ability every time. Also it increases in dmg at 11.

Shillelagh lasts an entire minute. So you'd only need cast it once per fight.

[sflame56]

Shillelagh lasts an entire minute. So you'd only need cast it once per fight.

Oh does it? I didn't realize.

[Khrysaes]

The thing is horizon walker uses their bonus action to make their dmg force and to add a 1d8 onto it with no rests required. Shilelagh is a bonus action cantrip mean I would lose my ability every time. Also it increases in dmg at 11.

Shillelagh also increase the weapon damage to d8. So you would do d8 from the weapon, then an additional d8 from the force. increased at 11.

So for the one bonus action you increase you average damage for the next 10 rounds by 1. not super significant, but it does make you SAD. If this isnt AL legal, though i suspect it is, maybe you can convince your DM to allow a variation of the high elf that gets +1 wis instead of int and a druid cantrip instead of a wizard one.

[Chugger]

Shillelagh also increase the weapon damage to d8. So you would do d8 from the weapon, then an additional d8 from the force. increased at 11.

So for the one bonus action you increase you average damage for the next 10 rounds by 1. not super significant, but it does make you SAD. If this isnt AL legal, though i suspect it is, maybe you can convince your DM to allow a variation of the high elf that gets +1 wis instead of int and a druid cantrip instead of a wizard one.

Right. So when the DM says, "You see a door 30' ahead." - you say, "I pop Shillelagh." Maybe 2-3 rounds go by getting the door open (looking for traps, other prepping) - but you're ready for a fight. Often you get a clue that a fight is coming - but sometimes the DM won't listen to you cuz he/she is so bent on explaining and thinking about the upcoming fight. So you may have to get your words in anyway - or when it comes to your first turn in combat and they say "what do you do?" - you say "I already popped shillelagh but you didn't hear me -" and hope they accept it.

I don't think High Elf w/ Wis is AL legal, unless there are Volo's or approved book variants of elves that are. A level of dru or nature cleric would get you shillelagh.

[Khrysaes]

Right. So when the DM says, "You see a door 30' ahead." - you say, "I pop Shillelagh." Maybe 2-3 rounds go by getting the door open (looking for traps, other prepping) - but you're ready for a fight. Often you get a clue that a fight is coming - but sometimes the DM won't listen to you cuz he/she is so bent on explaining and thinking about the upcoming fight. So you may have to get your words in anyway - or when it comes to your first turn in combat and they say "what do you do?" - you say "I already popped shillelagh but you didn't hear me -" and hope they accept it.

I don't think High Elf w/ Wis is AL legal, unless there are Volo's or approved book variants of elves that are. A level of dru or nature cleric would get you shillelagh.

Yeah the elf variant is probably not AL legal.

The Magic Initiate, Spell Sniper, or cleric / druid multiclass is.

[jaappleton]

I’d 100% go Half Orc over Dragonborn here. Extra damage on a Crit, Darkvision, and the Relentless Endurance ability will prove insanely useful. Dragonborn get a bonus to Charisma, which is totally useless to you, no Darkvision, and no defensive ability like Endurance. Dragon Fear, if you take that Feat, keys off Charisma, and you don’t have the stat points to manage that effectively.

Rangers have few defensive abilities in their core class. They get the Absorb Elements Spell, but that’s really it. No bonus to saves like a Paladin or Second Wind / Indomitable like a Fighter. So any way to add Defense is a welcome one, right?

Also, remember, you’ll need a decent amount of Dex since Rangers don’t get Heavy Armor. The only d10 HD class that doesn’t get it. They do get proficiency is Dex saves, which is good, and I can see the merits of going Strength > Dex in your play style, since you’d have decent saves in both that way as opposed to being amazing at only Dex.

You mentioned wanting to be able to be elusive and able to jump in and attack, but be able to get out when necessary. If, for whatever reason, you care to consider a Dex build using a Finesse weapon like a Rapier, I ask you to strongly consider Tabaxi as a race. Free proficiency in Perception & Stealth, a climbing speed, Darkvision and Feline Agility make you insanely fast. Great for drawing enemy attention and leading your foes into an ambush, or for getting to a fallen ally that needs a quick heal, since you’d only get Cure Wounds, which has a Touch range. It’s something to consider.

[rbstr]

I'd go with Dex too. You gain flexibility in weapon choice and potential for better AC with medium armor master. Shillelagh can be good but it's really not buying you a lot here. Strength is in about the same boat, or a decent bit worse depending on how you want to place. Unless you eventually want to go with great weapons there's really no good reason to use a Longsword instead of a Rapier.

On the spell side Wis might not even be that important to you.
Plenty of good Ranger spells don't need any wisdom including several that go well with a melee ranger. Hunter's Mark, Zephyr Strike, Guardian of Nature (This last one could be pretty neat with a Great-Weapon build!)

Hail of Thorns and Lightning Arrow both actually need ranged attack rolls to be made with ammo or a thrown weapon - Has to be Dex or Str. Even if the AOE aspect of these requires a save vs. your wisdom DC.

And, of course, plenty of utility stuff is wis-free. Absorb Elements, Pass Without Trace and much more.

[Chugger]

Yeah the elf variant is probably not AL legal.

The Magic Initiate, Spell Sniper, or cleric / druid multiclass is.

Right.

If indeed Rangers don't really need wis for their spells then the shillelagh route may be silly.

Or it may be the thing to do if you go "Wis gish" - like Ranger/War Cleric or Ranger/Druid or something, which has been discussed on other threads. Not so overwhelming w/ power like a sorcadin that it calls out omg imba - but possibly fun to play.

Edit - trying to remember some of that - I think for AL you do your last "redo" as you move from lvl 4 to 5. So you become a va hu lvl 4 Ranger w/ warcaster or resil con. If you go resil con make your con an odd number. And your other level is nature cleric to get shillelagh and heavy armor. With heavy armor you only need dx for missile attacks (and st's and stealth and such) - you can opt for med armor to keep stealthing, and with shield and shillelagh you would still have very good ac if your dx is at least 14. Ah, you're not taking str so you don't want hvy armor, anyway, it'd slow you down.

You'd be weak at lvl 5, but at lvl 6 you'd be Rang 5/nature cleric 1 and get extra attack. At this point you're angling for spells like spir weapon and spir guardian. You have warcaster or resil con to keep those spells going in fights - to keep concentration.

The other way to go is druid - same except you have an armor problem. Well, you could go stud leath for ac 12 and dx 16 for ac 17 w/ shield - or you can somehow get non metal medium armor. This route you'd go something like flaming sphere for your lvl 2 druid spells and conjure animals for your lvl 3 spell (or the call lightning one, if you're fighting in a big enough place or outside). You can pick a land druid or new druid from X to optimize your fighting - at least one of the land druid circles gives you haste, for example. So that could be your lvl 3 spell, your main one.

What you're lacking compared to a sorcadin is the amazing single-target divine smites. You'll have higher level slots, though, you can upcast to. But you don't really come on line until lvl 10, so I dunno if this is worth it to you. Well at lvl 8 you get some cool stuff, but the cle or dru lvl 3 spells is where you start to shine.

[PeteNutButter]

There are a few good reasons to use str over dex or wisdom options:
-GWM. You might want to consider this, but if shield fits with your build idea I get it.
-Barbarian. Both rage damage and reckless attack require str melee attacks. It takes up one bonus action to activate but it is well worth it. Consider this as a dip 1-4 levels.
-Other weapons. If playing AL or published adventure, relaying on rapier or bust can be dicey. You’ll often end up with a +1 short sword or some other suboptimal weapon as you watch better magical longswords and battle axes pass by you. The str build can use all the weapons well (except ranged ones).

With these in mind, I’m fond of a zealot barb dip for more dice that only costs 1 bonus action to set up (rage). Reckless attack crit chance (9.5%) is nice if you like to roll fistfuls of dice. And the resistance to physical damage on a melee is always great.

[Chugger]

Pete makes a very good point on AL. There are only a few modules or hardcover adventures where you can pick what you get.

Spoiler below.


*


WHite Plume Mntn is one where if you do at least 2/3 your mission you are rewarded a choice of +2 weapons. Each person gets that - but casters get other options like prayer beads or bracers of def or a bard instrument. If you're locked into a +1 rapier to get magic 1d8 weapon, they do drop, but they're rare. And if you're in a module that drops one there is no guarantee you'll win it, if another player rolls for it.

[sflame56]

Thanks for all the suggestions. For me I am mostly wanting to go med armor since in a lot of my al games it is the most common passed up armor since everyone is either light or heavy armor. Also it allows me to throw in more stats into other locations. Also with str I can go and grab all the melee weapons when they come up and not lose out on a lot of dmg. Even if I grab a +3 rapier I can still use str with it. A rageing ranger kinda sounds cool as a half orc the main thing is I won't be able to use any concentration spells. So spells like Zephyr strike and hunters mark gone. I could grab mobile to make if so I could run to different enemies with no opportunity attacks and help me get in faster. The spell I want the most to use in the new book is the Steel wind strike which is why I was thinking of playing this character in a super mobile way along with their blink ability. I mean whats scarier an elf coming at you with a wimpy rapier or half orc teleporting around and slicing all your friends apart in the blink of the eye as he ends up next to the puny mage in the back line and smashes his skull in.

[PeteNutButter]

Thanks for all the suggestions. For me I am mostly wanting to go med armor since in a lot of my al games it is the most common passed up armor since everyone is either light or heavy armor. Also it allows me to throw in more stats into other locations. Also with str I can go and grab all the melee weapons when they come up and not lose out on a lot of dmg. Even if I grab a +3 rapier I can still use str with it. A rageing ranger kinda sounds cool as a half orc the main thing is I won't be able to use any concentration spells. So spells like Zephyr strike and hunters mark gone. I could grab mobile to make if so I could run to different enemies with no opportunity attacks and help me get in faster. The spell I want the most to use in the new book is the Steel wind strike which is why I was thinking of playing this character in a super mobile way along with their blink ability. I mean whats scarier an elf coming at you with a wimpy rapier or half orc teleporting around and slicing all your friends apart in the blink of the eye as he ends up next to the puny mage in the back line and smashes his skull in.

Steel wind strike is so deep into ranger you should probably not plan around it. Your mileage may vary, but it's hard enough to get tier 3 tables to fire at my store, let alone tier 4.

Zephyr Strike is a different thing altogether. If it's your go-to spell in combat, it really encourages a heavy damage play style. A tank doesn't need to worry about provoking OAs because they want to stand next to enemies to keep them from going to allies. A big half orc with a heavy weapon on the other hand can run in hit HARD and then back away. The advantage on one swing works great with GWM too.

Something like 17, 14, 14, 9, 13, 8 should get the job done. GWM first ASI, Orcish Fury second.

IMO Zephyr Strike seems like a waste on a sword and board character, and that's coming from a player that really favors the shield.

[jaappleton]

Thanks for all the suggestions. For me I am mostly wanting to go med armor since in a lot of my al games it is the most common passed up armor since everyone is either light or heavy armor. Also it allows me to throw in more stats into other locations. Also with str I can go and grab all the melee weapons when they come up and not lose out on a lot of dmg. Even if I grab a +3 rapier I can still use str with it. A rageing ranger kinda sounds cool as a half orc the main thing is I won't be able to use any concentration spells. So spells like Zephyr strike and hunters mark gone. I could grab mobile to make if so I could run to different enemies with no opportunity attacks and help me get in faster. The spell I want the most to use in the new book is the Steel wind strike which is why I was thinking of playing this character in a super mobile way along with their blink ability. I mean whats scarier an elf coming at you with a wimpy rapier or half orc teleporting around and slicing all your friends apart in the blink of the eye as he ends up next to the puny mage in the back line and smashes his skull in.

So, let me get this straight:

You want to be a Half Orc, in Medium Armor, because.... It sounds cooler.

Ok. It does.

But the Half Orc isn't doing any more damage than the Elf is. The Half Orc isn't immune to magical sleep and doesn't have advantage on saves VS Charms. You can still use Medium Armor if you primarily go Dex. That Rapier does the same damage with 20 Dex as it does with 20 Strength. And if you go Wood Elf, you can hide easier. If you go High Elf, you can take the Feat in XGtE that lets you Misty Step every short rest. So what's cooler, clumsily running at someone or teleporting behind them BEFORE THE CLASS LETS YOU TELEPORT and stabbing them through the back of the neck?

Its your character. If the Half Orc appeals to you, go for it. It certainly works.

I just don't think its fair for you to write off being Dex based. If Dex simply doesn't appeal to you, fine. Certainly a valid viewpoint.

But you asked for help optimizing. Yeah, I can help you get blood from this stone, but Dex opens up the floodgates.

[Biggstick]

So, let me get this straight:

You want to be a Half Orc, in Medium Armor, because.... It sounds cooler.

Ok. It does.

But the Half Orc isn't doing any more damage than the Elf is. The Half Orc isn't immune to magical sleep and doesn't have advantage on saves VS Charms. You can still use Medium Armor if you primarily go Dex. That Rapier does the same damage with 20 Dex as it does with 20 Strength. And if you go Wood Elf, you can hide easier. If you go High Elf, you can take the Feat in XGtE that lets you Misty Step every short rest. So what's cooler, clumsily running at someone or teleporting behind them BEFORE THE CLASS LETS YOU TELEPORT and stabbing them through the back of the neck?

Its your character. If the Half Orc appeals to you, go for it. It certainly works.

I just don't think its fair for you to write off being Dex based. If Dex simply doesn't appeal to you, fine. Certainly a valid viewpoint.

But you asked for help optimizing. Yeah, I can help you get blood from this stone, but Dex opens up the floodgates.

Actually, the Half Orc is doing more damage then the Elf. Extra critical dice tend to very much so do more damage.

And you bring up Charm and Magical Sleep. Sure, that's great, but I see more people drop to 0 hp then getting charmed or slept, so Relentless Endurance wins out again here for a melee Ranger.

Also, a 14 Dexterity Ranger in the later game is still going to be just as useful with a bow. I'm talking level 9 and above, where they can shoot a bow with a +6 proficiency. That's still respectable, and definitely nothing to sneeze at.

Either way, for a melee Ranger that's focused on Strength, a Half Orc is going to do more damage and stay alive longer then an Elf.

[GlenSmash!]

I like Strength based Rangers. A lot actually. But unless you plan to go GWM or PM or Grappler there is not much Mechanical reason to justify one. However you might have plenty of Story reason for one if you want.

I also think Hunter with Horde Breaker or Gloom Stalker Rangers work better as Strength based than Horizon Walker since a big damage die weapon will get more out of the extra attacks those sub-classes get. But again this assumes a Heavy weapon.

The Shield Master feat might be enough to tempt me to make a Strength Based Sword and Board Ranger. i could take Prodigy for expertise in Athletics then knock foes down for Melee advantage, or shove them into a Spike Growth I had cast earlier.

[rbstr]

Pole Arm Master + Sentinel could be quite interesting on a Horizon Walker since you've got many tools to stay away from enemies.
But the bonus-action attack is a bit of a waste given your Planar Warrior bonus action. That conflict happens with Shield Master too.

As far as strength-ranger synergy...Gloom gets one extra attack per combat, I'm not so sure that counts for more than what HW can do. While it doesn't match horde breaker, Horizon Walker will get an extra attack every round there's 3 or more creatures to hit.

[sflame56]

If ranger got great weapon fighting I would so go for a heavy two hand weapon. I was thinking of sword and board since I could get dueling which gives +2 dmg and I get +2 ac when I really don't need to do much in my free hand. If I multiclassed two levels into fighter I could get action surge to increase my effectiveness and if i go 3 I could go champion for higher crit chance.

[rbstr]

You could (should) take defense style if you went with a great weapon. Fighter is a decent MC for ranger, though.

[PeteNutButter]

If ranger got great weapon fighting I would so go for a heavy two hand weapon. I was thinking of sword and board since I could get dueling which gives +2 dmg and I get +2 ac when I really don't need to do much in my free hand. If I multiclassed two levels into fighter I could get action surge to increase my effectiveness and if i go 3 I could go champion for higher crit chance.


You could (should) take defense style if you went with a great weapon. Fighter is a decent MC for ranger, though.

Yeah, GWF is generally considered weaker than defense, as its damage boost is relatively small. Most GWF fighters/paladins I've seen take defense style. It's a great way to split the offense and defense. In that regard, greatsword pure rangers are not at all unheard of.

I wouldn't value GWF style high enough to justify a single fighter level. Action surge on the other hand is quite good. If you took it to 3 fighter levels, battle master is probably the best choice.

[sflame56]

I wouldn't value GWF style high enough to justify a single fighter level. Action surge on the other hand is quite good. If you took it to 3 fighter levels, battle master is probably the best choice.

So ya what I am thinking now is go 5 lvls into ranger then 3 into fighter then rest into ranger or 8 then 3. Luckily the last 3 lvls of ranger suck so I won't be missing out on anything good. With my starting gold I got a maul so a nice heavy weapon with 16 ac thanks to my armor. For fight my Maneuevers would be trip attack, Sweeping attack (so I get even more attacks in) and Riposte or pushing attack. Cool thing I just thought of I do save room for the real tanks in the group to get magical heavy armor while I get the Med armor they don't want.

[Biggstick]

So ya what I am thinking now is go 5 lvls into ranger then 3 into fighter then rest into ranger or 8 then 3. Luckily the last 3 lvls of ranger suck so I won't be missing out on anything good. With my starting gold I got a maul so a nice heavy weapon with 16 ac thanks to my armor. For fight my Maneuevers would be trip attack, Sweeping attack (so I get even more attacks in) and Riposte or pushing attack. Cool thing I just thought of I do save room for the real tanks in the group to get magical heavy armor while I get the Med armor they don't want.

Another thing you could consider is three levels of Barbarian. The offensive/defensive value gained here is much more consistent then what Fighter gives you.

Three times per day, you have Rage, which stretches out the usefulness of your spell slots by making them something you're not required to use in every combat. If you don't go Totem/Bear, you're looking at resistance to three of the most common damage types in the game, along with a slight damage boost to every Strength melee attack.

You gain Reckless Attack. If you're a GWM Ranger, I don't really need to explain the awesomeness of being able to generate your own advantage on attack rolls. You're also picking up Danger Sense, and while not an amazing combat ability, it does help you out on those Dexterity Saving Throws.

Lastly you're getting an archetype bonus. Ones to pay special attention to are Totem, Zealot, and Ancestral Guardian (I can't remember the name of this one). All three of these bring either great team utility (Totem and Ancestor) or extra damage and a thank you from your Revivify caster (Zealot).

You're overall getting a more consistent advantage generator then Battlemaster Maneuvers, a bigger hit die, and tools to help you deal with the fact that you are wading into the thick of it without a solid way to efficiently heal yourself (resistance will do wonders for your survivability on a melee Ranger).

I'd still go with the same leveling scheme though of Ranger 5, Barbarian 3, Ranger XX, unless starting at level 6 or higher. If you're starting at 6 or higher, start Barbarian for 1 level (PC lvl 1), go Ranger 5 (PC lvl 6), then Barbarian 2 (PC lvl 8), then rest Ranger as per you see fit.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Consider dwarf. Nothing wrong with dwarf. Hill dwarf even boosts your wisdom.

Perfect for Barbarian multiclassing
Perfect for monk multiclassing (kensai)
Al legal

Nobody makes dwarf rangers anymore :(
Also just throw spears/javelins/handaxe if you need to hit something faraway. Nothing wrong with carrying back up weapons.

[sflame56]

Whats spells do you think I should grab with a ranger fighter mix or a ranger barb mix?