Seeing through walls

[keeper2161]

The Prestige Classes Soul Archer has an ability called Phasing Shot. Which allows you to fire arrows through non-magical walls and barriers. Is there any item that allow you to see through walls and barriers (I would assume the ground would constitute a wall or barrier)? I know there are a few but I am looking for something with a distance of 120ft. Basically I want to make an assassin type character that shoots his targets through walls. If an item like this doesn't exist then can any one offer advice on how I would make one? I was thinking maybe combination of the spells see through stone, true seeing, and scrying on a pair of goggles. So far the item cost would be 100,800g. Which to craft it it would be,at most, 50,400g. Any advice?

[noob]

You can take a single level in mindbender(if you have manifester level 5) and then take mindsight and know the position of intelligent creatures within 100 foot

[Darrin]

The Ring of X-Ray Vision has been in the game since 1st edition. However, I don't think there's ever been a spell that has duplicated the effect. The range on the ring is only 20', so that doesn't really fit what you're looking for. The closest we get is maybe clairaudience/clairvoyance, but the location you want to look at must be already familiar to you. Most of the other spells either use an object or creature to anchor your viewpoint, such as a floating eyeball or a familiar.

Reverse engineering the Ring of X-Ray Vision is problematic. We know the caster level and that it's command-word activated... so if we divide by 10,800 GP we get something around a 2nd level spell... but if it were just a 2nd level spell, then why isn't the caster level 3rd instead of 6th? So maybe we can assume there was a limitation put on there to knock down the price, and indeed, using the ring for longer than 10 minutes incurs Con damage. So call it a 3rd level spell with a 20' range. If we add widen, then Enlarge Spell would bring it up to 4th, but that's only 40' range. Enlarge it twice more, call it a 6th level spell for 160' range... hmm... 6 (spell level) x 11 (caster level) x 1800 = 118,000 GP? Or you could just say a Ring of X-Ray Vision with x6 range = 25,000 x 6 = 150,000 GP. I'm not sure if that's really balanced, but 118,000 to 150,000 gives you someplace to start.

[Fizban]

The closest we get is maybe clairaudience/clairvoyance, but the location you want to look at must be already familiar to you.
Correction: "the locale must be known—a place familiar to you or an obvious one." Clairvoyance is the spell that lets you just look behind the door. Of course the idea that you could aim a shot with your body on one side of the wall and your eyes on the other is still absurd, but anyway.

Obviously as a legacy fiat item the Ring of X-Ray Vision doesn't actually use any formulas- or does it? They put True Seeing in the prerequisites, and True Seeing 1/day is suspiciously close to 25,000 (not counting the material components). True Seeing 1/day (at min cl) lasts for 11 minutes, suspiciously close to the 10 minute limit before con damage. A dash of rounding to nice numbers and it's there. Why is it cl 6? Because the cl on an item rarely means anything and every writer seems to assign them differently for anything without a standard template.

Trying to reverse engineer a spell out of a fiat item is not what I'd call a good idea (and if your spell level is lower than the prerequisite for the item. . . ). I don't remember a See Through Stone spell, and I don't see why you'd need True Seeing if you can see the target and yourself, or indeed why you'd anything else if you can already see your target through the stone. Aside from there being plenty of building materials other than stone, including paint. If your DM's okay with the idea in the first place, just using Clairvoyance is the easiest option.

[keeper2161]

True seeing has a range of 120ft. So using that as a base we have our range. See through stone is a druid spell that lets you see through a stone surface as glass. Not very useful to me as it basically creates a one way window. But combined with true seeimg extends the range. Allowing us to see through stone at 120ft. Now we add scrying which would give sight through everything else non magical at 120ft range. I think I did that math wrong and the price is actually a lot higher. 244,800g would be the total price and 122,400g would be the crafting price. Is there any rules about not stacking spells to make an item?

[keeper2161]

True seeing has a range of 120ft. So using that as a base we have our range. See through stone is a druid spell that lets you see through a stone surface as glass. Not very useful to me as it basically creates a one way window. But combined with true seeimg extends the range. Allowing us to see through stone at 120ft. Now we add scrying which would give sight through everything else non magical at 120ft range. I think I did that math wrong and the price is actually a lot higher. 244,800g would be the total price and 122,400g would be the crafting price. Is there any rules about not stacking spells to make an item?

EDIT: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/see-through-stone/

[Fizban]

I have no idea where you're getting the idea that True Seeing would extend the range of that spell.

[keeper2161]

Using it as a base. True seeing has a range of 120ft. The other two spells alter true seeing to allow sight through everything non magical at 120ft.

[Psyren]

Of course the idea that you could aim a shot with your body on one side of the wall and your eyes on the other is still absurd, but anyway.

I mean, why not? It's magic. It's not hard to imagine that the spell delivers the visual information in such a way that your brain can process it without being disoriented.


Using it as a base. True seeing has a range of 120ft. The other two spells alter true seeing to allow sight through everything non magical at 120ft.

The True Seeing isn't doing anything here unless there is an illusion or something similar on the other side of the wall. Either the wall is thin enough for your STS to penetrate it, or it isn't.

[keeper2161]

The idea for the character is to get a job for a hit. Find the targets home. Then, using the goggles, find out where the person is inside in the castle or manor. Then using phasing shot kill them without ever entering the building.

EDIT:True seeing is just the shell being used. All the spells augment your sight. True seeing is longest of the three. So using that as a base the other augment what you see.

[Fizban]

I mean, why not? It's magic. It's not hard to imagine that the spell delivers the visual information in such a way that your brain can process it without being disoriented.
It makes you see as if you were standing there. Normally your eyes are always in the same place relative to the rest of your body, but now they're in a variable position. There's no mention of you knowing the current position of your body relative to the sensor- you might know it when you cast, but it doesn't update. Basically it's just a whole 'nother ability that the spell doesn't grant, though an improved version would be worth researching.

I'm still recommending Clairvoyance as the proper spell though. Cast it relative to your position, get the mark's position relative to the sensor, and you have the target's position relative to you. That's enough to target the square vs full concealment, slap on a spell to ignore concealment and you've got the shot. No monkeying needed.

[Psyren]

It makes you see as if you were standing there. Normally your eyes are always in the same place relative to the rest of your body, but now they're in a variable position. There's no mention of you knowing the current position of your body relative to the sensor- you might know it when you cast, but it doesn't update. Basically it's just a whole 'nother ability that the spell doesn't grant, though an improved version would be worth researching.

Well first, it's "almost" as if you were there, not as if you were there. So there is wiggle room to say that the weirdness of seeing from one spot and firing from another doesn't occur. Second, the spell doesn't mention it disorienting you, or applying any additional penalties, either.



I'm still recommending Clairvoyance as the proper spell though. Cast it relative to your position, get the mark's position relative to the sensor, and you have the target's position relative to you. That's enough to target the square vs full concealment, slap on a spell to ignore concealment and you've got the shot. No monkeying needed.

Phase Arrow already negates concealment, no additional spell needed. You just have to know where to aim it - info that clairvoyance gives you.

[keeper2161]

The problem with Clairvoyance is that it creates a object. Granted an invisible one but it is something where there is evidence. Plus if someone got rid of the the orb before I got the arrow off then the target could move and I would be firing at an empty space. But I would also have to know the blueprints of the building to put it into the house. And it wouldn't help if I was in a fortress somewhere with a job to kill the leader of this fortress. I doubt I would be able to find the blueprints to any fort. With the goggles I would be able to go anywhere without any other info then the targets name and looks. And with the goggles no one would see it coming. No magical aura. No evidence.

[Fizban]

Sounds less like an assassin and more like a guy with wall hax to me. Again, if you and your DM want there to be a custom item that (in combination with the appropriate shot hax) lets you just shoot people through walls, use whatever price you agree on. I don't think it's appropriate in the slightest, so obviously I don't have a problem with there being a hole in the ability.

I would note that hitting someone with spell without having line of effect is usually limited to extremely specific low-damage effects and/or requires the highest level of spells. Even magic tends to respect having a wall between yourself and your enemy, forcing them to teleport to your side if they want to engage.

[keeper2161]

Phasing shot only allows one shot at a time. You expend your psionic focus to use it too. So you can only shoot one arrow every two rounds. While useful it's not going to break a dungeon. The goggles would help but are also not game breaking. Mainly because they don't help with magical things. It wouldn't see what magical traps do. Because of true sight I would be able to see the actual traps. Aka magical sigil on the floor or walls. Doesn't mean I know what they do. Plus pretty much any magical field surrounding something would block my sight. Doesn't help when I am inside the field and I would doubt someone would put up walls of anti scrying or wall of force on every wall in a dungeon.

[Zaq]

Tremorsense works through walls, doesn't it? You'd still have concealment (I think), but I think it would let you pinpoint the square, at least.