Poor Poor Favored Soul

[AnimeTheCat]

So, I was reading about the favored soul for a NPC in a game and as I was reading (the Complete Divine version... I'm unsure if the PHB II version is different) I kept getting a worse and worse taste in my mouth.

I understand that the favored soul is supposed to be a spontaneous divine caster, and that's really cool, but the vanilla divine caster is the cleric. As such I figured the class would be fairly comprable to cleric much in the same way that a sorcerer is comprable to a wizard, a little less powerful, but ultimately not missing anything except the versatility bit of being a prepared spellcaster with no limit on spells known. Then I dug in and started making the character and it started with the paladin badness of needing charisma to determine spells/day and level of spell you can cast, but basing DC off of wisdom. Lame.

Then I noticed on my second read through, they don't get heavy armor proficiency, but they get a bigger HD than cleric as well as weapon focus with the deities weapon which implies they're designed to be more front line oriented. That really stinks too...

Third read through, i noticed something that was appalling... THEY DON'T HAVE KNOWLEDGE (RELIGION) AS A CLASS SKILL!?!?!?!? Seriously... that is... wow....

So, instead of having something that is basically a spontaneous cleric, i found that favored soul is an overall less desirable divine caster than pretty much every divine caster... and it made me sad....

Is this a concensus across the internet that the Favored soul is just sad or am I missin an eratta or something?

(rant over)

[Ignimortis]

So, I was reading about the favored soul for a NPC in a game and as I was reading (the Complete Divine version... I'm unsure if the PHB II version is different) I kept getting a worse and worse taste in my mouth.

I understand that the favored soul is supposed to be a spontaneous divine caster, and that's really cool, but the vanilla divine caster is the cleric. As such I figured the class would be fairly comprable to cleric much in the same way that a sorcerer is comprable to a wizard, a little less powerful, but ultimately not missing anything except the versatility bit of being a prepared spellcaster with no limit on spells known. Then I dug in and started making the character and it started with the paladin badness of needing charisma to determine spells/day and level of spell you can cast, but basing DC off of wisdom. Lame.

Then I noticed on my second read through, they don't get heavy armor proficiency, but they get a bigger HD than cleric as well as weapon focus with the deities weapon which implies they're designed to be more front line oriented. That really stinks too...

Third read through, i noticed something that was appalling... THEY DON'T HAVE KNOWLEDGE (RELIGION) AS A CLASS SKILL!?!?!?!? Seriously... that is... wow....

So, instead of having something that is basically a spontaneous cleric, i found that favored soul is an overall less desirable divine caster than pretty much every divine caster... and it made me sad....

Is this a concensus across the internet that the Favored soul is just sad or am I missin an eratta or something?

(rant over)

Technically, Favored Soul is MAD, not SAD :P
But yes, it's a weird class in that way - not paladin-y enough, and way worse than cleric.

[heavyfuel]

Meh, you're still a Tier 2 caster who can outshine pretty much every class in the game. Sure, you're not as strong as the Cleric, but then again, very few classes are.

[weckar]

The capstone is also VERY meh.
Considering this got printed right next to the Spirit Shaman, there is really no excuse.

[Psyren]

Yeah it's kinda lame. You also have to burn some of your limited spells known on healing.

I would port in the Pathfinder Oracle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle) instead. It is SAD, has cool curses, a bunch of free spells (including all cures or inflicts), and fun Revelations to choose from that are at least equivalent to feats.

[ArendK]

My groups fix was just giving them 2 domains, and the domain spells as spells known. Worked out rather nicely for my group.

[Gnaeus]

Agree w/ Psyren.

But on the thread in general, I would add that they can’t turn (so worse minionmancy, can’t use that Cha they are forced to have) and no domains (so less powers less customizability) and those 2 things block them from entering most of the good PRCs for their deities.

[noob]

One thing you can do is instead use spontaneous cleric.

[AnimeTheCat]

so I know there are lots of little fixes and all of them are pretty good. I'm the DM so I can fix and tinker away if I want (and I likely will). I was mostly just shocked that they are a divinely inspired class, basically vessels of divinity for their deity on the material plane, but they don't have knowledge (religion) on their skill list... That is just strange.

I'll probably give them the heavy armor proficiency and Knowledge (Releigion) as a class skill, Turn Undead and one domain (as opposed to two).

The character is a dwarf favored soul of Moradin so i'll probably just end up trading the Law domain for Law devotion because I like it and it's a fun feat.

EDIT:
This post was really just a little rant on how I was a little sad when I went to make my first favored soul.

[Psyren]

This post was really just a little rant on how I was a little sad when I went to make my first favored soul.

Ranting can be fun but proposing workable solutions is fun too :smallsmile:

[Fizban]

The Fiend Blooded PrC, explicitly meant for sorcerers and with a sorcerer as the example character, requires Knowledge: The Planes 8 ranks. Sorcerers do not have this as a class skill and thus cannot enter the class as the obviously expected standard of 5+PrC The example sorcerer does not have enough ranks to enter the class. Yeah, sometimes they screw up.

The Mystic from Dragonlance manages to do it right. Very much the sorcerer style counterpart to the cleric, with the delay (in fact just the sorc spells per day and known period), no free turning and only the one domain instead of a cleric's two, Wis SAD (and the proper knowledge skills). Exactly what you'd expect from a printed spontaneous divine caster.

Of course the divine caster role hinges on having a bunch of solutions that will eat all your spells known if you try to actually have them all, which means you're more of an "arcane" except with 2nd string attack spells and healing instead of arcane spells, and the ability to reliably activate scrolls of the rest of the cleric list.

[noob]

If you want a spontaneous cleric you can just pick spontaneous cleric from unearthed arcana.
It even explicitly gets the ability to spontaneously cast domain spells.

[Zanos]

Heavy armor proficiency isn't a big deal long term. The best armor is either light for movement or medium if you really care about a few AC.

But yeah, Favored Soul is kind of just worse than Cleric other than spontaneous casting. It's still a 9th level caster off a strong list, though.

[mastermisha1]

The dead levels 2 article from WotC has an option to select Knowledge Religion from the start, along with 2 other minor boosts at levels 1 and 2. This doesnt fix all the problems of the Favored Soul, but its a start.

As for making them less MAD, Bastards and Bloodlines does have the Lost Tradition feat, but its a 3.0 book so it depends on what is and isnt ok in your campaign.

[GrayDeath]

Agree w/ Psyren.

But on the thread in general, I would add that they can’t turn (so worse minionmancy, can’t use that Cha they are forced to have) and no domains (so less powers less customizability) and those 2 things block them from entering most of the good PRCs for their deities.

I agree.

We usually fix it like this:

1.: Pure fluff it shoud have fix: Gain Knowledge Religion, gain Turning as a Cleric, gain all the domains of their god (but only 1 domain slot).

Does not make it much more powerful, but adds some flexibility, makes the "Chosen of God X actually exhibit that gos´ds domains/style.


2.: Fix to make it better at what it was most likely meant to do:
Add the choice of spontaneus conversion to healing or harming spells OR Turning as cleric, add one domain (cast spontaneously), and give the option to add a second one (also increasing spells/Day) if neither of turning/SPont. Conversion is added.

More of a Divine Sorcerer, less of a GOds Chosen.



However, as was said, while you are most likely the either weakest or least flexible T2, you still ARE a T2, if a dumbly constructed one. :)

[ShurikVch]

Evangelist - variant of Cleric from Dragon #311 - is one more spontaneous divine caster:
What it lose - Knowledge (history, planes); "domain spell slot"; spontaneous Cure/Inflict; Turn/Rebuke Undead
What it get - spontaneous spellcasting (as Sorcerer, but Wis-based); extra Domain every 5 levels (in addition to starting two. All domain spells are added to Spells Known)



The Fiend Blooded PrC, explicitly meant for sorcerers and with a sorcerer as the example character, requires Knowledge: The Planes 8 ranks. Sorcerers do not have this as a class skill and thus cannot enter the class as the obviously expected standard of 5+PrC The example sorcerer does not have enough ranks to enter the class. Yeah, sometimes they screw up.Firstly: why, exactly, it should be "5+"? Divine Crusader, for example, is required BAB 7+, will you complain about the impossibility to enter it at 6th level?

And secondly - it's still doable.
Races:
Ghost Elf (Dragon #313) - Knowledge (the planes) is always class skill
Empty Vessel (Eberron Campaign Setting) - Knowledge (the planes) is always class skill

Templates:
Primordial Giant (Secrets of Xen'drik) - +any one Knowledge as class skill

Alternative Class Features/Substitution levels:
Blood of Siberys (Dragon #351) - Knowledge (the planes) as class skill
Domain Access (Complete Champion) - Knowledge Domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#knowledgeDomain), all Knowledge skills as class skills
Planar Sorcerer (Planar Handbook) - Knowledge (the planes) as class skill

Feats:
Academy Graduate (Savage Tide Player's Guide (http://paizo.com/dungeonissues/SavageTide/SavageTide_HR.pdf)) +any three Cha- or Int-based skills
Aereni Focus (Player's Guide to Eberron) +any skill as class skill
Apprentice, philosopher or spellcaster (Dungeon Master's Guide II) - any Knowledge as class skill
Flexible Mind (Dragon #326) - any two trained skills become class skills
Keeper of Forbidden Lore (FC1: Hordes of the Abyss) - Knowledge (the planes) as class skill
Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion) - any Knowledge as class skill

Items:
Planar Syllabus (Dungeon #88) - costs 500 gp per granted rank of Knowledge (the planes), thus - 4000 gp to qualify for the Fiend-Blooded PrC :smallamused:

[Anthrowhale]

I'd second the Spontaneous Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm). Relative to FS, you get:

+ Turn Undead
+ 1 level of spell access. This only applies to domain spells, but it's great being able to get second level spells at 3rd level.
+ 2 domains
+ Wisdom-only casting
+ access to most cleric ACFs (since a Spontaneous Cleric is a Cleric)
+ more knowledge skills
- sense motive
- some control over spell choice (since you choose domains rather than spells)
- good Ref save
- unimportant FS class features.

[Malimar]

The reasoning (such as it is) for favored soul not having Knowledge(religion) is obvious and not utterly nonsensical, if you look at the fluff: a favored soul is just selected by the deity and gets power directly from them without having to do any fancy studying or praying or anything. So why would they, having received no religious training, have any Knowledge(religion)?

Considering that sorcerers are the same story (they get power by inheriting it, no studying or anything) but still get Knowledge(arcana); and the fact that if you want that to be your favored soul's backstory you can simply elect not to put any ranks in Knowledge(religion) while having it be a class skill would open up more concepts; it's not a particularly good justification. But it's there.

[AnimeTheCat]

The reasoning (such as it is) for favored soul not having Knowledge(religion) is obvious and not utterly nonsensical, if you look at the fluff: a favored soul is just selected by the deity and gets power directly from them without having to do any fancy studying or praying or anything. So why would they, having received no religious training, have any Knowledge(religion)?

Considering that sorcerers are the same story (they get power by inheriting it, no studying or anything) but still get Knowledge(arcana); and the fact that if you want that to be your favored soul's backstory you can simply elect not to put any ranks in Knowledge(religion) while having it be a class skill would open up more concepts; it's not a particularly good justification. But it's there.

I see what you mean, but it would be my expectation that a favored soul of heironeous would uphold that which heironeous upholds otherwise why would they be a chosen of heironeous?

[Fizban]

Firstly: why, exactly, it should be "5+"? Divine Crusader, for example, is required BAB 7+, will you complain about the impossibility to enter it at 6th level?
Do you really need me to explain the pattern of almost all caster prestige classes having 8 rank requirements for 5th level entry? And how this one specifically requires not 3rd level spells like the majority, but only 2nd level spells, a change which would allow the Bard and Sorcerer, the two classes which are specifically called out in the "Becoming a Fiend Blooded" section, which also uses the phrase "meet the spellcasting requirements before 6th level", to meet the requirements before 6th level?

Seriously?

And secondly - it's still doable.
Congratulations, you found a workaround that assumes use of another sourcebook rather than admitting the people who wrote the class and the example failed to communicate and wrote a whole class description as well as example character and declaration of intent that are in direct conflict with each other.

Reflexively responding with char-op lists is a heavy contributor to why so many people don't actually think when they find a problem, realize that their judgement is just as valid as the writers, and actually figure out how to fix their game. I am so sick of the forced ignorance of it. Come on man.

[Thurbane]

The capstone is also VERY meh.
Considering this got printed right next to the Spirit Shaman, there is really no excuse.

I personally think FS suffers from being one of the earliest expansion base classes: it originally appeared in the Miniatures Handbook (alongside Healer, Marshal and Warmage). Out of that group, FS actually shines.

I think FS is solid enough as long as you PrC out as early as you can, to get yourself some class features.

[Pugwampy]

Energy resistance , wings , extra spell slots = chuck Norris approved .:smallbiggrin:

I don't don't know any higher HD but if that's true it's even more attractive . You can easily get better armour but not HD . No one complains about high HD , low armour barbarians . Heck this class is an untrained barbarian cleric

Nice role play theme , slowly transforming into an angel or demon . Pretty nice add on class to tiefling or assaimar race.

No this class is not frontline so it does not need the best armour. Clerics were never frontline so they don't need full plate either as far as I am concerned.

[ShurikVch]

I was mostly just shocked that they are a divinely inspired class, basically vessels of divinity for their deity on the material plane, but they don't have knowledge (religion) on their skill list... That is just strange.There is a reason there: Cleric starting at the same age as Wizard (2d6 years of education for Human-equivalent); Paladin - who still got Knowledge (religion) too - as Bard (1d6 years); Favored Soul, on the other hand, have lowest education of them all - "as Barbarian"



and the fact that if you want that to be your favored soul's backstory you can simply elect not to put any ranks in Knowledge(religion) while having it be a class skill would open up more concepts; it's not a particularly good justification. But it's there.This argument is double-edged:
- You want some Knowledge (religion)? Take it cross-class!
- You want Knowledge (religion) with full ranks? OK, then give the in-character justification for that - take Education, Well Read, or Knowledge Devotion!
Also, Knowledge Specialty (Ex) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x) was online for over a decade



Do you really need me to explain the pattern of almost all caster prestige classes having 8 rank requirements for 5th level entry?The "almost" is a keyword there: since "almost" ≠ "every single one", why you're complaining about the exception? :smallconfused:


And how this one specifically requires not 3rd level spells like the majority, but only 2nd level spellsSo what?
Fleshwarper, for example, doesn't required, technically, any spellcasting at all - I can enter it as a Barbarian with Familiar.
Your point..?


which also uses the phrase "meet the spellcasting requirements before 6th level", to meet the requirements before 6th levelBut it's the truth!
They are, indeed "meet the spellcasting requirements before 6th level"!
It's the skill ranks requirements which Sorcerer have problem with


Congratulations, you found a workaround that assumes use of another sourcebook rather than admitting the people who wrote the class and the example failed to communicate and wrote a whole class description as well as example character and declaration of intent that are in direct conflict with each other.Let me quote the Completely Dysfunctional Handbook [3.5] (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267985-Completely-Dysfunctional-Handbook-3-5) there:
All example characters are known to be wrong Thread 2, Page 29. 3.X
(Post any known exceptions here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283794))So, since they're all wrong, what's the big deal with one more?
It would be more surprising if it was correct!


Reflexively responding with char-op lists is a heavy contributor to why so many people don't actually think when they find a problem, realize that their judgement is just as valid as the writers, and actually figure out how to fix their game. I am so sick of the forced ignorance of it. Come on man.Please, don't take it as a personal attack or something, but maybe it's just a choice to see a problem where is, actually, none?
Take the aforementioned Fleshwarper PrC: is the omission of Heal 10 requirement for Graft Flesh a problem, or is it "as intended"?

[Coretron03]

For fiend-blooded, the desingers obviously intended for sorcerer to enter at 6, as the sample characters themselves enter at 6. Of course, thats not what they wrote.

The most amusing part of the class is this bit in the fluff though

"Clearly, the sorcerer is the shortest path to becoming one of the fiend-blooded, but bards can also qualify with ease. Both have Concentration and Knowledge (arcana) as class skills, and both can meet the spellcasting requirements before 6th level."

So they noted that it had the other skills as class skills, but not knowledge:the planes. I suspect some that editors added that skill requ requirement in without looking too carefully.

[weckar]

Clerics were never frontline so they don't need full plate either as far as I am concerned.
They weren't? Heh. I should tell my Cleric player about that. Too bad, he's been awfully effective at it.

[Grim Reader]

The lamentable thing about the Favored Soul is not that it is less powerful than the Cleric, it is that it is overshadowed in pretty much every one of its own areas of competence. There is almost nothing you can do with a Favored Soul that you can't do better with a Cleric. Only exception that I know of is if you can finagle entry to Sand Shaper.

Of course there is the opposing view... (http://secretsofthearchmages.net/Threads/WOTC/2005/Redgars%20Repository/154443.txt)

[Fizban]

Please, don't take it as a personal attack or something, but maybe it's just a choice to see a problem where is, actually, none?
Take the aforementioned Fleshwarper PrC: is the omission of Heal 10 requirement for Graft Flesh a problem, or is it "as intended"?
Or you just don't see the problem. Every single thread I see with someone desperately hunting for RAW answers to problems that wouldn't be problems if they understood the fact that they don't need RAW answers, is another indication of the overarching problem. You don't need a char-op list of workarounds for the screwed up entry requirements if you read the plainly stated intent of the class, realize they screwed up their own class, and then use that knowledge to ignore or fix those requirements.

And most people don't, but that doesn't mean I don't still get irked when someone tries to cram it down my throat- as you are the one who responded to my example of a similar problem by basically saying "here's a char-op list that makes your argument invalid." And seem to be further arguing that some web article or book literally printed after Complete Divine (or for a specific setting) justifies choices made in Complete Divine for the FS that weren't made for the Sorcerer. Or maybe they just got wrapped up in their fluff and didn't consider the consequences.

As for the Fleshwarper: yup, they screwed that up too. And the Dirgesinger as both the PrC and the feat required to enter it both require 8 ranks, but there's no general feat at 5th level, so you have to wait until 6th before you qualify (Fleshwarper having the same problem on top of the misaligned skill ranks). Of the three, Fleshwarper is the only one you could claim is "working as intended" (which is your claim, not mine, as I'm pointing out they're not working as intended), as the example Fleshwarper does have enough levels to get the ranks and take Graft Flesh before entering- the example Fleshwarper is an actual indication that maybe it was intended for later entry than the 8 skill ranks implies. It still doesn't change the mind-numbingly obvious pattern of BAB and skill ranks setting standard entry levels, which becomes even more apparent the later the books are printed and they actually start making more non-5th level entry classes, and the Fiend Blooded and Dirgesinger still lack that sort of justification. They have an obvious disconnect between the requirements and the expectations of the class, for which the simplest reasoning is that they forgot Sorcerers don't have Know: Planes, or that someone put an 8 or 10 rank requirement on a feat someone else had in mind for a normal 5th level entry prestige class.

Or it could be the PrC writers meant them to have "unique" entry levels and personally knew the exact details of why but didn't communicate them and reflexively put 8 rank requirements on everything because even though they had something specific they were too lazy to do it right and/or specifically wanted to give people reasons to search for earlier entry methods. Which for people that like to complain about the writers not knowing their own game (such as people who like to say "all example characters are wrong"), is a rather large about of credit just to support the RAW of those same writers. In short: a forced ignorance, the refusal to accept anything other than the exact mechanical data that aligns with one's own point and to heck with any other description or intent no matter how obvious.

TL;DR - No, seriously bro, it's pretty obvious.


Regarding my previous point on the Favored Soul having to blow most of their spells known in order to match the cleric, I will expound: I came up with a breakdown idea for a sphere-based divine caster a while back, like how I hear the older editions went. Comparing to the existing fixed list casters, I decided each sphere could have 5/5/4/4/4/3/3/2/2, which would allow three spheres for a competitive total, as long as the spheres weren't super minmaxed. Knowing that there would need to be a "standard divine caster" sphere with all the status prevention/removal in order to allow the class to perform in the divine caster role, I made those spheres first.

That's spheres, plural. Because I couldn't fit them all into 5/5/4/4/4/3/3/2/2 without deliberately dropping some in order to cram them all into one. The Favored Soul has 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/4 spells known total. So yeah, that's basically all your spells known until high levels, unless you're deliberately leaving off certain spells. The DM can of course tailor encounters and simply not send things at you that will ruin the party due to your lacking the spell, but a lot of people swear by the idea of status-quo only. Status-quo only is made largely possible by the presence of a Cleric (or at least Druid) keeping the party survive-able even when their offensive options don't line up.

[Coretron03]

Of course there is the opposing view... (http://secretsofthearchmages.net/Threads/WOTC/2005/Redgars%20Repository/154443.txt)

Gah, reading that hurt my brain. You gain flight! At level 17! Nobody cares, Phantom steed and overland flight have been in been flying for 3 (more with CL boosts) and 8 levels respectively. Energy resistance is a 12000 gp item for each ncrement. Sure, nice, but it's not game breakingly powerful, as energy resistance is a second level spell that can be cast on other people, scales and you can choose the energy type on the fly. Don't worry though, at 12th level, you gain a +2 to damage with one weapon! The fighter and cleric must be scared now, eh?

All good saves? You know what else has all good saves? The monk! None of the Miniature handbook classes can compare to the monk! He even gets the bit about proficiencies wrong, as clerics get heavy armour while FS's only get medium. They also says that Favoured souls have poor bab, just oike the sorcerer, only to say later that they have BAB just like a cleric. Can't even be consistent within their own post. Manages to call the spilt Wis/Cha casting a "strawman" and ignores the fact that the sorcerer will have either better DC's or spells per day no matter what they do. Ignores the fact clerics don't have to prepare cure or inflict spells to be able to cast them while favoured souls have to use up their spells known. Ignores the fact FS's are a level behind clerics in their spell progression (Which, to be fair, sorcerer's have too, but he doesn't compare it to just sorcerers). Ignores how powerful domains (Which can give feats and off list spells) and turn undead (even if you not (ab)using divine metamagic, there lots of feats that let you use them for other things, Plus ACF's) can be.

This part is of special note though
"I mean, I've got no problems saying that the Sorcerer's save DCs should be tied to Intelligence."
So he proposes nerfing the sorcerer, in a post complaining about it being over shadowed, while stating it in a such a way that it sounds like a buff.

There's also the fact that the Sorcerer/Wizard is better than the cleric list and that the cleric list was designed with the idea that the cleric could choose to prepare niche spells without putting effort into like a wizard would have to, which is why (At least, I would assume why) the favoured soul gets more spells known than the sorcerer, but thats a bit harder to explain in depth.

Some of his comments are similarly odd. Like how he says that having resistance to fire and cold (Gained at 10th level, mind you) lets you ignore hostile weather conditions. Which is what a first level spell can do and it doesn't protect your party. Useful, right? Then there's the one that recommends removing all of the FS's class features except flight, cutting its saves back to the sorcerers and giving it the same spells known as the sorcerer, which would obviously be way worse than a sorcerer

Of course, the FS can be powerful, because it casts of the cleric list. But better then Cleric and rendering the sorcerer pointless? Nope. Sorcerers lack of class features make entering a PRC much less painful anyway, so taking some levels in fatespinner or something (I don't know, I don't do sorcerers very often) will probably leave you with more useful class features than a favoured soul anyway.

Edit: Ooh, thst spheres thing sounds interesting Fizban. Could I have a link to it, if possible?

[Grim Reader]

Gah, reading that hurt my brain.

Yes... that was originally some kind of blog post on the Wizards boards. Not just a thread on the forums, a sort of "excellent posting" thing. Back in the day when avoiding the char op forums seemed to be a badge of honour among the WOTC designers.

[Fizban]

Edit: Ooh, thst spheres thing sounds interesting Fizban. Could I have a link to it, if possible?
Never finished or posted it since I didn't get very far- needing two spheres to maintain the role bummed me out a bit so I didn't get any farther filling them in, while on the other side giving full choice in all three is a little bit too must customization for that many spells known, but forcing people to take a "core" sphere is too restrictive. Here's the straight text dump from my notes:

If you want to make spontaneous Clerics more interesting and are willing to put in the work, you could make them a semi-fixed-list caster by building your own spheres. Take the existing fixed list casters spells known, divide them by the number of spheres you want each Cleric to have, then make a bunch of spheres with the appropriate number of spells each level. From 1st, say: 15/15/12/12/12/9/9/6/6 for your target totals. Then each cleric can start with three spheres each with 5/5/4/4/4/3/3/2/2 spells in them (0th orisons can just stay universal).

That's basically three times a Sorcerer's spells known, but from a set of fixed lists you don't get to choose (if you give them a bonus sphere later on then you'll need to buff Sorcerer's to compensate) and many will feel compelled to take healing by default. Build each list like domain, focused with all the relevant spells but not perfect when filling in the gaps. Have the standard 3 sphere cleric be a caster type with low BAB/hp/armor, then make the good 'ol Battle variant which trades a sphere and 1 slot/level for standard cleric BAB/hp/armor and maybe a couple bonus feats later on. Oh, and if we end up with a spell in multiple spheres give a +1 or +2 cl bonus if you have it multiple times.


Most important is the root healing sphere, which has to have all the main healing and status removal spells to cover the main cleric role. There's still a bunch of defenses that we could put in a mysticism sphere, and utility, but heals first.

Healing Sphere
1
Cure Light
Remove Fear
Deathwatch
Sanctuary
Resurgence (SpC)
2
Cure Mod
Delay Poison
Lesser Restoration
Remove Paralysis
Gentle Repose
3
Cure Serious
Remove Blindness
Remove Curse
Remove Disease
4
Cure Crit
Death Ward
Restoration
Panacea (SpC) [else Neutralize Poison]
5
Mass Cure Light
Break Enchantment
Raise Dead
Revivify (SpC) [else Healing Circle, CCh]
6
Mass Cure Mod
Heal
Regenerate [reduced level to make room at 7th]
7
Mass Cure Serious
Greater Restoration
Resurrection
8
Mass Cure Crit
Mass Death Ward
9
Mass Heal
True Resurrection


Mysticism Sphere -take 1
1
Shield of Faith
Protection from Alignment
Comprehend Languages -Bless/Curse Water?
Hide from Undead
Endure Elements
2
Resist Energy
Shield Other
Consecrate/Desecrate
Align Weapon
Aid -Living Undeath (SpC)?
3
Protection From Energy -Mass Resist?
Magic Circle against Alignment
Water Breathing
Water Walk
4
Air Walk
Freedom of Movement
Tongues -Dim Anchor needed
Sending
5
True seeing
Spell Resistance
Hallow/Unhallow

6
Word of Recall -Wind Walk?
Forbiddance? Banishment? (no dismissal earlier)
Heroes' Feast?
7
Refuge
Ethereal Jaunt
Control Weather? Holy Word? Repulsion?
8
Dimensional Lock
Alignment Aura
9
Etherealness
Miracle? Astral Projection?

So for mysticism we've got some competing sub-themes. There's room for most but not all of the PHB cleric transport spells, room for languages/tongues, but this line should have dim anchor as well. Giving it Miracle will make people whine about being mandatory-which means they'll seriously consider taking it. But making Miracle a class feature would also be cool. Astral Projection will likely fit best here, but has enough problems I'd rather it not be on our core two lists. Miracle it probably is then.

Since we've got the consecrate/hallow line, should probably have bless water, kick languages and tongues or make them options. No room for Mass Shield of Faith either, could shift both of those to a different sphere. Maybe put put Command/Greater on here since there's room at 1st/5th? Plop mass resist energy on the mass SoF list too, a war or armor sphere.

Create Food/Water would also fit the "things clerics just do" theme, but again no room with 3rd so full. Maybe a providence sphere for food and language, weather. Miracle sounds like a good fit for providence as well.


Mysticism Sphere -take 2
1
Bless/Curse Water
Command
Endure Elements
Hide from Undead
Protection from Alignment
2
Align Weapon
Consecrate/Desecrate
Resist Energy
Shield Other
Living Undeath (SpC)
3
Magic Circle against Alignment
Protection From Energy
Water Breathing
Water Walk
4
Air Walk
Dimensional Anchor
Freedom of Movement
Sending
5
Greater Command
Hallow/Unhallow
True seeing
Spell Resistance
6
Forbiddance
Wind Walk
Word of Recall
7
Ethereal Jaunt
Refuge -Mass Spell Resistance (SpC)?
Alignment Word
8
Dimensional Lock
Alignment Aura
9
Etherealness
Miracle

Drat, realized we're missing Plane Shift. That's 5th and 9th for Gate, but I just decided Command/Word was good. Removing Plane Shift from core two not worst idea though? I do expect we'd end up giving an advanced learning feature in the end anyway, which could pick it up.

So two more natural spheres so far: Providence (food, language, weather) and Planar (Plane Shift, planar survial and anti-planar foes). And one murkier sphere: "mass buffs" (mass resist, mass SoF).


Providence
1
Comprehend Languages
2
3
Create Food and Water
4
Tongues
5
6
Control Weather
7
8
9


Planar
1
2
3
4
5
Plane Shift
6
7
8
9
Gate


Reaction?
1
Expeditious Retreat
Lesser Deflect
Stand
2
Close Wounds
Deflect
Electric Vengeance?
Stabilize
3
Alter Fortune
Energy Aegis
4
Mystic Aegis
Stifle
Delay Death
Ruin Delver's Fortune?
5
Greater Electric Vengeance?
6
7
8
9
Maybe the solution would be to just have a core blob and then two spheres with slightly smaller spheres? Or maybe my first division was fine and I'm just being too uptight. Anyway, it's barely a skeleton as-is, the real art would be choosing and filling up the rest of the spheres without just making them best-of lists: about half the spells should be of the "eh I guess I'll use it since I have it variety," but it's really hard to make oneself do that.

[Psyren]

Of course there is the opposing view... (http://secretsofthearchmages.net/Threads/WOTC/2005/Redgars%20Repository/154443.txt)

To be fair that post is really old. Like, beginning of 3.5 old. So while that long-forgotten poster is definitely wrong and FS looks pretty weak by our modern design sensibilities, I could see it sparking this kind of reaction back in the day, when sorcerers had no ACFs and their lone class feature (the familiar) barely had any optimization, with the tricks we consider ubiquitous today being barely known about.

[Thurbane]

So I think we can all agree that the best move for a FS is to PrC out ASAP, preferably without losing any caster levels.

What are some PrCs that would work for a FS without having to jump through too many hoops to qualify?

[Psyren]

One of my favorite FS builds is the "Ultimate Paladin" - a build that uses Favored Soul to get 9th-level spells while also getting most of the iconic paladin stuff - cha to saving throws, smite and detect evil, and immunity to fear. Your mount will be weak, but you can just rely on Planar Ally or Gate instead to get around.

FS 7/Dragonslayer 1/Sacred Exorcist 1/Prestige Paladin 2/Fist of Raziel 9

For those who don't like being exalted good, I believe there is an Ordained Champion build like this that works in place of FoR.

[DEMON]

So I think we can all agree that the best move for a FS is to PrC out ASAP, preferably without losing any caster levels.

What are some PrCs that would work for a FS without having to jump through too many hoops to qualify?

The Knight of the Raven costs you a single CL, but is easy enough to qualify for and gives you full BAB and Turn Undead, amongst other class features.

[Anthrowhale]

FS 7/Dragonslayer 1/Sacred Exorcist 1/Prestige Paladin 2/Fist of Raziel 9

You can also use the Serenity feat to shift this over to wisdom focus.

[Pugwampy]

They weren't? Heh. I should tell my Cleric player about that. Too bad, he's been awfully effective at it.

I am guessing he is the closest thing you guys have to a martial character , yes ?

Big difference between effective and having nothing better to hide behind .

[Coretron03]

I am guessing he is the closest thing you guys have to a martial character , yes ?

Big difference between effective and having nothing better to hide behind .

That's not particularly fair assumption that the cleric would be worse than some other martial character, since clerics can be built to be better than most frontliners at melee. I'm not saying that the cleric necessarily is like that, just that you can't rule out the possibility.

[Grim Reader]

To be fair that post is really old. Like, beginning of 3.5 old. So while that long-forgotten poster is definitely wrong and FS looks pretty weak by our modern design sensibilities, I could see it sparking this kind of reaction back in the day, when sorcerers had no ACFs and their lone class feature (the familiar) barely had any optimization, with the tricks we consider ubiquitous today being barely known about.

The author comes back and defends the point a year before 4th edition though. Really, it illustrated a lot of the thinking in WoTC at the time that they singled that opinion out.

[rel]

I disagree with the OP, I like the favored soul.

It is a cleric option that isn't van helsing undead hunter.

It is much better balanced than the cleric, wizard or druid, with the right spell selection you can even hang out in a tier 3 party.

Dual attribute dependant casting classes are a great idea that go a long way towards closing the gap between casters and mundanes.

It actually requires the backing of a god. I struggle to remember a cleric powered by something other than an unshakable faith in their own awesome.


If you are looking for access to clerical curatives like remove curse, panacea or sheltered vitality in a tier 3 game the favored soul is a solid pick.
Select spells carefully, prestige class often and have fun.

[Telok]

My quick fix for the FS was simply to yank out the spells known and give them four domains of the deity that they worshipped.

[ShurikVch]

Or you just don't see the problem.Probably, it's the problem of view angle: it may look like a problem from your point of view, but from somebody else's point of view - not so much



Every single thread I see with someone desperately hunting for RAW answers to problems that wouldn't be problems if they understood the fact that they don't need RAW answers, is another indication of the overarching problem. You don't need a char-op list of workarounds for the screwed up entry requirements if you read the plainly stated intent of the class, realize they screwed up their own class, and then use that knowledge to ignore or fix those requirements.Maybe it's because people just hate to houserule?
Content created by WotC still regarded as "balanced" (whatever it may mean for the speaker), "tested", and so on...
People just prefer to search for "official" solutions, no matter how much of roundabout it will be (and when there is just no "official" solutions, they may prefer to just drop it over houseruling)



As for the Fleshwarper: yup, they screwed that up too. And the Dirgesinger as both the PrC and the feat required to enter it both require 8 ranks, but there's no general feat at 5th level, so you have to wait until 6th before you qualify (Fleshwarper having the same problem on top of the misaligned skill ranks). Of the three, Fleshwarper is the only one you could claim is "working as intended" (which is your claim, not mine, as I'm pointing out they're not working as intended), as the example Fleshwarper does have enough levels to get the ranks and take Graft Flesh before entering- the example Fleshwarper is an actual indication that maybe it was intended for later entry than the 8 skill ranks implies. It still doesn't change the mind-numbingly obvious pattern of BAB and skill ranks setting standard entry levels, which becomes even more apparent the later the books are printed and they actually start making more non-5th level entry classes, and the Fiend Blooded and Dirgesinger still lack that sort of justification. They have an obvious disconnect between the requirements and the expectations of the class, for which the simplest reasoning is that they forgot Sorcerers don't have Know: Planes, or that someone put an 8 or 10 rank requirement on a feat someone else had in mind for a normal 5th level entry prestige class.

Or it could be the PrC writers meant them to have "unique" entry levels and personally knew the exact details of why but didn't communicate them and reflexively put 8 rank requirements on everything because even though they had something specific they were too lazy to do it right and/or specifically wanted to give people reasons to search for earlier entry methods. Which for people that like to complain about the writers not knowing their own game (such as people who like to say "all example characters are wrong"), is a rather large about of credit just to support the RAW of those same writers. In short: a forced ignorance, the refusal to accept anything other than the exact mechanical data that aligns with one's own point and to heck with any other description or intent no matter how obvious.Note: Anarchic Initiate is blatantly Wilder (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/wilder.htm)-oriented PrC, and even have example character with Wilder entry...
Except it required 8 ranks in Knowledge (the planes)...
Wilder doesn't have Knowledge (the planes) as class skill!
So, would you grouch about it: "... grumble ... grumble ... bad design!.. grumble ... grumble ... houserule!.."?
Or would you just use one of "char-op solutions"?
Or just play Psion?..

The other notable example is the Thrall of Zuggtmoy.
Description says: "Druids and rangers make the best thralls of Zuggtmoy, although clerics with access to the Plant domain can do well as thralls."
The problem is: Thrall of Zuggtmoy is required Chaotic Evil alignment, and there are no CE Druids
Considering the Chosen of Malar required CE alignment too, but makes exception for NE Druids, fix is too damn obvious (especially considering the fact - "regular" religions allow one-step deviation from patron's alignment anyway)

[Fizban]

Note: Anarchic Initiate is blatantly Wilder (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/wilder.htm)-oriented PrC, and even have example character with Wilder entry...
A class that explicitly grants an ability that the Wilder already has was primarily built for Wilders? Sure, if you say so.

So, would you grouch about it: "... grumble ... grumble ... bad design!.. grumble ... grumble ... houserule!.."?
Or would you just use one of "char-op solutions"?
Or just play Psion?..
Har har, mock me for "grouching" about something just because you don't recognize the problem. Do you have a point? You seem to think that, like a person who must desperately claw for RAW, I would sit around complaining until I found something. Funny thing is, when you don't have that block, the turnaround is instant. "Houserule" takes less time and works better than forcing someone who hasn't already decided they want the workaround to use it. You also seem to think I sit around whining about "bad design"- no, once again that's the internet forum mentality, that one is special for understanding the rules better than the designers themselves who designed everything wrong lol they suck.

Actually trying to understand the mindset of the designers is not whining about bad design. You can't fix anything if you don't know how its supposed to work, and if you don't know how something works then you're far more likely to break it. Kinda like everyone who complains about the game being broken and then floods it with houserules that make it even more broken. And considering how long it took me to really start thinking about things, yeah I figure there's people who need the boost, so I'll keep putting it in print.

The answer of course, is that I would do whatever I want, because it's a game and I have that power. If I want a Psion AI, I'll play that, if I want a Wilder AI I'll play that, and if I want a Wilder AI without spending a feat or something on getting the skill in-class, I'll ask the DM. Or do it since I'm most likely the DM anyway.

[Psyren]

You can also use the Serenity feat to shift this over to wisdom focus.

Personally I would rather leave it at Cha - FS needs that for highest spell level and bonus spells. Your save DCs will be weak, but there are plenty of great spells that don't have saves at all.

[Anthrowhale]

Personally I would rather leave it at Cha - FS needs that for highest spell level and bonus spells. Your save DCs will be weak, but there are plenty of great spells that don't have saves at all.

W.r.t. spell access, it's almost always possible to get Cha 19 by ECL 18 even with a modest starting charisma via enhancement/inherent bonuses. That means you are really trading off between bonus spells and save DC. I could see going either way there depending on role.

The wisdom based approach provides easy access to a high to-hit (via Intuitive Strike/Zen Archery), a high AC (via Monk's belt), very high Will saves, and a high save DC.

The Cha based approach obviously provides much higher Cha based skills (UMD, Diplomacy) and more bonus spells. My favorite Cha-based caster approach of the moment is to take Apprentice Spellcaster for UMD access and then Channel Charge (LEoF) followed by buying staffs & wands with 1 charge to provide cheap access to every desired spell at one level higher than normal.

[Pugwampy]

I disagree with the OP, I like the favored soul.

I would choose this over a cleric . I like specialist healers and for that i need more spell slots than a cleric can offer .

[Psyren]

@Anthrowhale

I'd say the list of useful spells without a saving throw is large enough that I'd be fine dumping Wis. Buffs, summons, utility, healing, several forms of bfc...

Plus, I'd rather not have access to all my higher-level spells dependent on an item.

I'm not worried about Will saves - this build gets Divine Grace after all, plus Favored Soul itself has strong will too. As for high AC, I can simply wear armor since the casting is divine. I already get Cha to hit from smiting as well.

[DEMON]

I would choose this over a cleric . I like specialist healers and for that i need more spell slots than a cleric can offer .

Purely from an optimization point of view, you'll be better off with a Cleric, even if you were mainly going for the healer's shtick.

Between the domain spells and powers, turn undead granting access to divine and domain feats, SAD-ness etc... and more importantly the faster access to higher level spells, the Favored Soul's marginally higher number of spells isn't that big of a deal.

[Nifft]

One thing you can do is instead use spontaneous cleric.


If you want a spontaneous cleric you can just pick spontaneous cleric from unearthed arcana.
It even explicitly gets the ability to spontaneously cast domain spells.

Apparently nobody else saw this.

You need to make longer posts.

That said, you're entirely correct -- the Spontaneous Divine Casters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) variant Cleric fixes a bunch of the problems with Favored Soul.

== == ==

A campaign with purely Spontaneous Divine Casters can be interesting and fun -- instead of a single rest-prep cycle to fix a curse or disease, you might need to find an NPC Cleric who can cast remove curse or remove disease, and of course those NPC Clerics are the only NPCs who could craft items (or help the party craft items) to replicate those spell effects.

Finding the right divine spellcasters becomes a source of side-quests, as it was in earlier editions.

[Thurbane]

Personally I would rather leave it at Cha - FS needs that for highest spell level and bonus spells. Your save DCs will be weak, but there are plenty of great spells that don't have saves at all.

I've often contemplated trying to write up a Favored Soul handbook, which would include a section for "attack" spells that aren't dependent on saves.

No idea when I would have time to do this...

[Anthrowhale]

@Anthrowhale

I'd say the list of useful spells without a saving throw is large enough that I'd be fine dumping Wis. Buffs, summons, utility, healing, several forms of bfc...


I ended up choosing Charisma here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?526397-Warmage-vs-Favored-Soul) so I have an obviously-compromised ability to argue against it :-)

[Fizban]

I would choose this over a cleric . I like specialist healers and for that i need more spell slots than a cleric can offer .
Favored Soul doesn't neccesarily have more slots than Cleric though- it has the same Sorcerer problem where 50% of the time the prepared caster has 2-3 extra spells higher level than your own maximum. For example, at 7th level FS has 6/6/4, while Cleric has 5/4/3/2: even if they only prepped 3rds in the 4th slots, they'd have 5 to the FS's 4. The Cleric's max spells per day do gown down over time, but not until much later, and the split ability casting means FS is likely to have fewer bonus slots. Possibly more important is the lack of Turn Undead, which powers one of the only ways to get ranged healing at "zero" cost.

Ironically, I'd say the Favored Soul's main advantage in being a specialist healer is versatility- in that you're not giving up nearly as much. A Cleric build has to take the Healing domain to leverage all their slots and qualify for Imbued Healing, while a Favored Soul can ignore some of the cure spells if they think they can get away with it, and take the Deity's Favor ACF to get a similar (though overall weaker) benefit to Imbued Healing anyway. Come to think of it, the energy resistance is pretty handy for that too, maybe save a bit on Resist Energy spells and definitely have more defenses when they're not up (fire and cold also come with environmental immunity), and while it's been made a joke of, getting Weapon Spec really does drag on the fighter quite a bit: You can go from that straight to Weapon Mastery, take Divine Power, and the fighter actually does lose one of its only advantages. Since a specialist healer can't really afford too many attack spells with all the status removal they need, and can't gurantee buff rounds or combos since they need to react to to damage, a reliable weapon attack+damage booster is one of the better space fillers.

[Zombimode]

I disagree with the OP, I like the favored soul.

It is a cleric option that isn't van helsing undead hunter.

It is much better balanced than the cleric, wizard or druid, with the right spell selection you can even hang out in a tier 3 party.

Dual attribute dependant casting classes are a great idea that go a long way towards closing the gap between casters and mundanes.

It actually requires the backing of a god. I struggle to remember a cleric powered by something other than an unshakable faith in their own awesome.


If you are looking for access to clerical curatives like remove curse, panacea or sheltered vitality in a tier 3 game the favored soul is a solid pick.
Select spells carefully, prestige class often and have fun.

I agree.

The Favoured Soul is really fine. It is not the most elegant or interesting class but is a fine choice that offers good range of Options and is hard to mess up completely. I would also recomend it over the cleric for new players (Cleric is one of the most daunting and hard to play classes especially for new players).

Sure the casting stat split is a pitfall that a new Player may step into, but what this actually means is that you have to decide between two archetypes: the "fighting priest" (that simply doesn't care about save DCs) or the "casting priest" (that skimps on physical Attributes). With System mastery you can achieve both, naturallly.

Like Psyren I like using the Favoured Soul as base for a "true" Paladin.

[AnimeTheCat]

Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way saying anything like it's the worst class. Far from it as yes, it is a full caster that pulls spells from one of the most expansive lists in the game.

My gripes were that, as a holy character chosen by a deity the class doesn't have Knowledge (Religion) as a class skill and for you to know anything about deities, religious tradition, dogma, undead, etc. you need Knowledge (Religion). Sure, you can know "common knowledge" but that means you can't even know the basic knowledge about your deitie's religion. If the knowledge DCs go 10 (really easy/common), 15 (basic information), 20+ (really hard) then you can't even hope to know the tennets of your own religion... It makes no sense, not for the sake of knowing other religions but for the sake of knowing your own. And as much as clerics may sneer at you and misunderstand where you get your power as a favored soul, you're still a servant of your deity and you still must uphold the values of your deity, but how can you do that if you literally don't know them?!

Second gripe, if you're a front line warrior type why in the world don't you have heavy armor proficiency?! For that matter, why do the clerics have it but you as a favored soul don't? It makes no sense. One class is geared towards fighting (hint, the one with weapon focus and weapon specialzation) and the other is not, but one class gets the heaviest armor (hint, it's the one that isn't geared towards fighting) and one doesn't.

The fact that the Favored Soul doesn't get turn undead or domains isn't that big of a deal to me. Thematically I don't feel like it fits as well for favored soul as it does for cleric, that's just my opinion. It would be nice if they got both, but it doesn't feel necessary for the class to me. I would think that favored souls would get all armor proficiencies, simple weapon proficiencies, Shield proficiencies and deity's favored weapon proficieny while clerics should get simple weapon proficiencies and light armor proficiencies. To me (personally) clerics should be lightly armored or unarmored as they are the priest or religious leader, while the favored souls and paladins are the heavy armed and armored ones. Even changing those proficiencies would go a long way in balancing the cleric (in my opinion).

This is all purely opinion based and I know it goes against the accepted culture on these forums and in D&D in general since clerics have long been heavyily armed and armored. I just disagree since it impedes on the Paladin and other holy warrior types. I think by giving the cleric such proficiencies, the other classes that warrant them in the fluff don't get the opportunity to serve in their role as well.

Not really in search of agreement, accord, or any other sort of dialogue, but just putting my opinions out there (for the whopping 1 digital copper they're worth :smallwink:)

[Gnaeus]

I just think that 1. If a class fills the same role as another class and is mechanically weaker in every way, that should be made clear in the description (it’s not bad, as long as it’s clear) and
2 a favored soul of Pelor should be able to be a radiant servant of Pelor, etc.

[Pleh]

So the Thurbane thread about the Tristalt Knightershal (which has become a T5 polystalt discussion) has me thinking about this.

I expect the answer to be, "not all that much" but what do we think about Soulborn/Favored Soul (Favored Soulborn)?

Gestalting Soulborn into the mix improves the HD to d10, boosts the BAB to Good, adds Climb/Handle Animal/Know (Planes)/Ride/Swim (FS gives Soulborn Diplomacy, which is fantastic for a CHA heavy build), grants Smite Opposition, one of four possible Incarnum Defense immunities, and whatever Meldshaping options the Soulborn has (which as I recall was never great, but it might manage to give FS the edge it needs to maybe not need to salvage those lost Cleric features).

What do you think? Any hope here, or is it as bad as it more than likely to be?

[Psyren]

@Pleh: It would be pretty irrelevant. FS can already get full BAB from Divine Power if they need that, and 1 extra HP per level won't do much either. There are also cleric spells like Divine Insight and Guidance of the Avatar that completely blow away anything soulmelds can give you from a skills standpoint.

At the end of the day they're a T2 class, they don't need help - but even if you were to help them, Soulborn doesn't add anything they can't get on their own. Though at least it wouldn't hurt them, other than adding an alignment restriction where none is needed.

If you're going to gestalt them with something that forces them into the corner alignments, I would say use the UA variant Paladins instead - Divine Grace on a Cha class is always useful, and Paladins got a lot more splat support than Soulborns did.

[Pugwampy]

holy character chosen by a deity the class doesn't have Knowledge (Religion) as a class skill and for you to know anything about deities, religious tradition, dogma, undead, etc. you need Knowledge (Religion).

What rule says a deity cannot favour a soul that is ignorant of anything religious ? How much do your own pets know about you ?

This is kind of the opposite to a cleric who has to do religious rites and prayer in order to get the attention and favour of the diety.

Deity likes wierdo , diety is kissing up to wierdo regardless of reciprocation.



if you're a front line warrior type why in the world don't you have heavy armor proficiency?! For that matter, why do the clerics have it but you as a favored soul don't? It makes no sense.

Barbarians dont have heavy armour either . Personally i dont believe cleric or favoured soul is a frontline . PF fixed cleric in that way . As for heavy armour . Clerics have lots of touch spells so they have to get in close . All their stats taken for Wis and Cha , Dex is probably a very likely dump stat .

Remember favoured soul gets wings , you cannot have fullplate and fly . Probably going to have to drop all his armour if he wants to fly .

[Thurbane]

As previously pointed out, there is a web article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x) that gives the Favored Soul the option to swap out Knowledge (arcana) for Knowledge (religion); personally, I believe the original printing of the FS in MH omitting Knowledge (religion) from class skills was an accidental oversight, rather than an intentional design decision.


Knowledge Specialty (Ex): At 1st level, a favored soul can choose whether to make Knowledge (arcana) or Knowledge (religion) a class skill. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed.

[AnimeTheCat]

What rule says a deity cannot favour a soul that is ignorant of anything religious ? How much do your own pets know about you ?

This is kind of the opposite to a cleric who has to do religious rites and prayer in order to get the attention and favour of the diety.

Deity likes wierdo , diety is kissing up to wierdo regardless of reciprocation.

I see what you mean, but how then can a favored soul even know the basic tenets of their patron, or are you implying that Heironeous will still grant spells and spell power to a chaotic evil favored soul? That's what I'm getting at.


Barbarians dont have heavy armour either . Personally i dont believe cleric or favoured soul is a frontline . PF fixed cleric in that way . As for heavy armour . Clerics have lots of touch spells so they have to get in close . All their stats taken for Wis and Cha , Dex is probably a very likely dump stat .

Remember favoured soul gets wings , you cannot have fullplate and fly . Probably going to have to drop all his armour if he wants to fly .

Barbarians get a d12 HD, and a class ability that boosts Con, as opposed to a d8 HD and nearly no class features.

Further, they don't get wings till level 17! You mean to say that the first 16 levels without wings make heavy armor irrelevant to the class? That's a little bit of a stretch in my opinion, but no two opinions will be the same I suppose... a 17th level class feature that comes after too many dead levels that I doubt any character even gets to as there are earlier methods of getting wings anyway. It's not a worthwhile class feature.


As previously pointed out, there is a web article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x) that gives the Favored Soul the option to swap out Knowledge (arcana) for Knowledge (religion); personally, I believe the original printing of the FS in MH omitting Knowledge (religion) from class skills was an accidental oversight, rather than an intentional design decision.

Is there any reason why they couldn't have both been included? If a deity can inspire divine magic is it farfetched for a deity to impart religious and arcane knowledge? Further, maybe a class feature that adds charisma or wisdom as an untyped bonus to each of the knowledges to reflect this fluff in the crunch?

[Thurbane]

Is there any reason why they couldn't have both been included? If a deity can inspire divine magic is it farfetched for a deity to impart religious and arcane knowledge? Further, maybe a class feature that adds charisma or wisdom as an untyped bonus to each of the knowledges to reflect this fluff in the crunch?

I think any or all if that would be totally fine.

[Anthrowhale]

Breaking down prestige class choices a bit more:

Witch Hunter 1 grants "Kami's Grace" = +chr to saves at the cost of a feat, a spell, and one level of spell advancement at ECL8 which is sometimes easier than Prestige Paladin and cumulative.

Hathran 5 is ridiculously powerful as normal with Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell allowing early entry.

Skypledged may(?) grant access to all PHB Druid spells.

[Pugwampy]

are you implying that Heironeous will still grant spells and spell power to a chaotic evil favored soul? That's what I'm getting at.


How did i imply that ? Heironeous would NOT seek out and favour a chaotic evil character in the first place . The favoured soul is unknowingly doing something that impresses a god or furthering that gods cause , so that god is sponsoring him .



Further, they don't get wings till level 17! You mean to say that the first 16 levels without wings make heavy armor irrelevant to the class?


Nothing says you cannot burn a feat or dip into fighter level , although that might be wasted if you do make it to level 17 . If your Dex is higher than 12 , you dont need heavy armour .

[AnimeTheCat]

How did i imply that ? Heironeous would NOT seek out and favour a chaotic evil character in the first place . The favoured soul is unknowingly doing something that impresses a god or furthering that gods cause , so that god is sponsoring him .

Nothing says you cannot burn a feat or dip into fighter level , although that might be wasted if you do make it to level 17 . If your Dex is higher than 12 , you dont need heavy armour .

A person is chosen to be a favored soul of a certain deity. I'm familiar to Heironeous so I'm using him as an example. Said favored soul doesn't have Knowledge (Religion) so the favored soul doesn't know that the 3 major tennets of Heironeous are Duty to People, Duty to Archpaladin, Duty to a Lady. Because the favored soul doesn't know this the favored soul could very well go out and support an evil or neutral tyrant in the idea of doing a good thing, while in actuality the tyrant is not doing things in the best interest of the people. Had the favored soul known that, he could have made sure to be on the watch for tyranny that surpresses the people rather than laws that support and protect the people. Because there is no education for it and no mechanical framework for it, a favored soul can be utterly oblivious to what a deity wants, thus causing problems and potentially a loss of divine backing.

Saying "Chaotic Evil" was an extreme exaggeration, but the concept was that there is nothing in the class that binds a favored soul to any specific alignment. The alignment text says "Usually of the same alignment as their deity" but then it goes on to say that "Some are one step away". Even later, after reading through the text multiple times it never says that a favored soul *Must* be either the alignment or within one step. Unlike the Monk, barbarian, or Paladin (Always Lawful/Chaotic/Lawful Good) there is no text that difines "Must be within one step of deity's alignment" like in the Cleric's alignment description. There are no rules that dictate this meaning that, according to RAW, you could have a Chaotic Evil Favored Soul of Heironeous. It's a stretch, but that's just to expand of my gripe. (and I know, it's just a gripe. I'm not saying the game sucks or anything like that, it just seems lazy is all).

As for the wing thing... It just comes online too late to be useful... and if it were to be something valuable and good, they could be fully functional wings, but also magical in the sense that (unless surpressed or dispelled) they would allow the character to fly in heavy armor without penalty. I mean... that seems pretty neat. Especially if they came online, I don't know, around level 10... that would make it relevant to the character and provide something comprable to overland flight and also make the class more worthwhile to make up for it's lack of class abilities.

Again, I know these are gripes and that I'm more than welcome to fix them. I do appreciate the conversation though.

[Grim Reader]

I don't think the problem with the Favored Soul is power. It is a full caster. And I don't think it is flavour, its got that. (Personally I like the idea that FS has some remote divine ancestor, like the Sorcerer has a draconic one. And casts under his own power. But that's refluffing)

The problem is that it is inferior to the Cleric for pretty much anything. And the Cleric is a core class, whereas the FS is a splatbook class.

Any fix in my opinion should be aimed at moving it out from under the Clerics shadow and give it options the Cleric doesn't have. Maybe something similar to the fixed-list casters Advanced Learning, or letting it pull form more divine lists.

[AnimeTheCat]

I don't think the problem with the Favored Soul is power. It is a full caster. And I don't think it is flavour, its got that. (Personally I like the idea that FS has some remote divine ancestor, like the Sorcerer has a draconic one. And casts under his own power. But that's refluffing)

The problem is that it is inferior to the Cleric for pretty much anything. And the Cleric is a core class, whereas the FS is a splatbook class.

Any fix in my opinion should be aimed at moving it out from under the Clerics shadow and give it options the Cleric doesn't have. Maybe something similar to the fixed-list casters Advanced Learning, or letting it pull form more divine lists.

I mean, truly the best fix to pull other classes out from under the Big Three (Wizard, Druid, Cleric) is to change the big three. It requires less work, and fewer alterations. If you let the T2 (I somewhat dislike tiers but people understand them) classes set the bar and balance based on them, or possibly even based on T3 style classes. Anyway, that shifts the shadow into something more manageable and instead of having 3 huge mountains with smaller, but awesome mountains in their shadow, you have like 30 awesome mountains each unique in their own regards.

[Zombimode]

Said favored soul doesn't have Knowledge (Religion) so the favored soul doesn't know that the 3 major tennets of Heironeous are Duty to People, Duty to Archpaladin, Duty to a Lady. Because the favored soul doesn't know this the favored soul could very well go out and support an evil or neutral tyrant in the idea of doing a good thing, while in actuality the tyrant is not doing things in the best interest of the people. Had the favored soul known that, he could have made sure to be on the watch for tyranny that surpresses the people rather than laws that support and protect the people. Because there is no education for it and no mechanical framework for it, a favored soul can be utterly oblivious to what a deity wants, thus causing problems and potentially a loss of divine backing.

Yeah, I mean if we are working under the assumption that the lack of Knowledge(Religion) on the FS's skill list is not simply an editing error.

Personally I lean on saying that it is and houserule to exchange Know(Arc) for Know(Rel).

[AnimeTheCat]

Yeah, I mean if we are working under the assumption that the lack of Knowledge(Religion) on the FS's skill list is not simply an editing error.

Personally I lean on saying that it is and houserule to exchange Know(Arc) for Know(Rel).

I somehow don't see it as an editing error when it's printed the same way in 3 different books at 3 different times with 3 different chances to catch it and edit it. I don't know the chronological order, but the class is in PHB II, Complete Divine, and Miniatures Handbook.

I'm all for houseruling that both are class skills, but I'm all for more knowledge skill being spread around every class, like fighters getting knowledge architecture/engineering and nobility/royalty and then getting to pick one to apply 1/2 their class level to and can always be considered trained even if they put no points in it.

[Pugwampy]

Regarding the CE favored soul of heronious . Divine castors are borrowing power from the gods . If any deity is not impressed with their favored souls or Paladins or clerics , they can pull the power plug from them any time.

FS being ignorant probably runs a bigger risk of that happening .

[Malimar]

Regarding the CE favored soul of heronious . Divine castors are borrowing power from the gods . If any deity is not impressed with their favored souls or Paladins or clerics , they can pull the power plug from them any time.

FS being ignorant probably runs a bigger risk of that happening .
Many perfectly reasonable DMs would rule so, but is there any support for this in the rules? Favored souls, unlike virtually every other divine caster (other exceptions include Archivist, Ur-Priest, and probably some PrCs), have no Code nor any requirement to follow the tenets of their deity nor any Ex-Class rules.

[ottdmk]

So the Thurbane thread about the Tristalt Knightershal (which has become a T5 polystalt discussion) has me thinking about this.

I expect the answer to be, "not all that much" but what do we think about Soulborn/Favored Soul (Favored Soulborn)?

Gestalting Soulborn into the mix improves the HD to d10, boosts the BAB to Good, adds Climb/Handle Animal/Know (Planes)/Ride/Swim (FS gives Soulborn Diplomacy, which is fantastic for a CHA heavy build), grants Smite Opposition, one of four possible Incarnum Defense immunities, and whatever Meldshaping options the Soulborn has (which as I recall was never great, but it might manage to give FS the edge it needs to maybe not need to salvage those lost Cleric features).

What do you think? Any hope here, or is it as bad as it more than likely to be?I like Soulborns (seriously, I wrote a Guide, it's in my .sig) but I'm not sure I'd go with one here. Gestalt seems to be mostly about optimization and Soulborns aren't the best route that way. Still, it would give the benefits you mention and a Soulborn's melds have some fun options. (For example, if you wanted to go with a chain-trip build, Soulborns are actually really, really good there.)

I think it could be fun, but then again, I think single-classed Soulborns can be fun so I'm obviously biased.

[Thurbane]

I somehow don't see it as an editing error when it's printed the same way in 3 different books at 3 different times with 3 different chances to catch it and edit it. I don't know the chronological order, but the class is in PHB II, Complete Divine, and Miniatures Handbook.

MH: October 2003
CD: May 2004
PHB2: May 2006

Miniatures Handbook was pretty early on in 3.5.

[DEMON]

MH: October 2003
CD: May 2004
PHB2: May 2006

Miniatures Handbook was pretty early on in 3.5.

So no one is going to point out that the class isn't really reprinted in PHB2, it's only discussed and given an ACF there?

It was introduced in MH in 2003 and reprinted in a much more widespread CD the next year. DnD 3.5 was still wearing diapers at that time.

[Elkad]

Clerics were never frontline so they don't need full plate either as far as I am concerned.

Clerics are historically (D&D history) frontline. Only in 3.5 did that start changing. Heavy armor and decent weapons/HP lets them fill a gap in the line, stand in melee range while they heal the fighters, etc.
Sure, they don't do frontline damage after the first couple levels (without Codzilla or similar), but they still keep Mr D4 Hitpoints from getting squashed while he does that finger-waggling.

Then after the fight they healed everyone up to do it again.

A classic party of 2-4 fighter types, rogue, 2 clerics and a mage in a classic dungeon crawl meant you could hold a line and let the enemy break on you. If a fighter got really low, a cleric swapped spots with him while the other cleric healed him up. And one of them often got stuck with rear guard duty, again to keep the bookworm from getting backstabbed.

Now we've moved on to rocket tag (and just as important, the shift to 4-man parties instead of 6-10 man), so it's less applicable. Unless you want to build a war cleric of course.

[Fizban]

Cleric on frontline is even more important in a standard 4 'man party: only two of the main four have armor and hit points, and it ain't the rogue and wizard.

[Pugwampy]

Clerics are historically (D&D history) frontline. Only in 3.5 did that start changing. Heavy armor and decent weapons/HP lets them fill a gap in the line, stand in melee range while they heal the fighters, etc.
Sure, they don't do frontline damage after the first couple levels (without Codzilla or similar), but they still keep Mr D4 Hitpoints from getting squashed while he does that finger-waggling.


This game will never stop evolving . Heavy armour no longer stacks with your DEX but compensates for the lack of it . A high dex non armour weirdo can be a frontliner . No argument that cleric keeps the old man wearing a girls dress alive . My one gripe is the most appreciated trick the cleric is wanted for AKA HEALING for is probably 10 percent of his options list . Its not wrong for a vet player cleric to tell a damaged buddy that he is best used in battle for everything other than healing . Standing in frontline and bashing skulls is just one of many excuses . Whats the point of a fighter then ? Whats the point of giving a cleric healing spells ?


Then after the fight they healed everyone up to do it again.

After the fight pfff.....a good dedicated cleric should drop everything and heal during a fight . After the fight you can sleep it off or go to a temple . My very first campaign had two clerics , which 90 percent of the time killed and frontlined . My Barbarian got no healing until after the fight and well they moaned about losing spells .
My last campaign was awesome , our Priest player kept asking during a fight , who has low HP ?

Have you ever seen your players go ape nutz , throwing dice at DM when monsters have a healer in their group and that wierdo runs around giving HP back to that freak chopping at the players ? There is a very good reason for that .



A classic party of 2-4 fighter types, rogue, 2 clerics and a mage in a classic dungeon crawl meant you could hold a line and let the enemy break on you.

A classic party is 1 fighter , 1 rogue , 1 cleric and 1 mage . Seems like you swopped out a fighter for another cleric .



Cleric on frontline is even more important in a standard 4 'man party: only two of the main four have armor and hit points, and it ain't the rogue and wizard.

Actually an experienced player can build a rogue good enough to be on the frontline . Might have less HP and light armour but why hide him in the back if his AC is twice that of an armoured cleric ?

[Pleh]

After the fight pfff.....a good dedicated cleric should drop everything and heal during a fight . After the fight you can sleep it off or go to a temple . My very first campaign had two clerics , which 90 percent of the time killed and frontlined . My Barbarian got no healing until after the fight and well they moaned about losing spells .
My last campaign was awesome , our Priest player kept asking during a fight , who has low HP ?

Mmm. Spontaneous casting on Cure spells makes frontlining much better tactically than dedicated healing.

You can always sack spells after the fight to heal after. You might need those spells you sacrifice to win the fight.

I'd say the best strategy for cleric casting is to start healing around 1/4 health left on the injured ally (unless the enemy is dealing lots of damage on each hit). Up to that point, the spells are better than the HP.

[MeeposFire]

The lamentable thing about the Favored Soul is not that it is less powerful than the Cleric, it is that it is overshadowed in pretty much every one of its own areas of competence. There is almost nothing you can do with a Favored Soul that you can't do better with a Cleric. Only exception that I know of is if you can finagle entry to Sand Shaper.

Of course there is the opposing view... (http://secretsofthearchmages.net/Threads/WOTC/2005/Redgars%20Repository/154443.txt)

I remember reading that when that was first written and today it may be hard to believe but that view prevailed for a long time until the OP boards really began pushing narrative. You see the same thing with the monk where a bunch of people said it was overpowered but much later down the line the general consensus moves to it not being overpowered at all (in that case pretty weak).

You will see the same pattern in 4e and now in 5e where something new came out and a bunch of people will talk about how overpowered it is and then down the line the thinking changes when seeing all the info out for it.

[DrMotives]

The other notable example is the Thrall of Zuggtmoy.
Description says: "Druids and rangers make the best thralls of Zuggtmoy, although clerics with access to the Plant domain can do well as thralls."
The problem is: Thrall of Zuggtmoy is required Chaotic Evil alignment, and there are no CE Druids
Considering the Chosen of Malar required CE alignment too, but makes exception for NE Druids, fix is too damn obvious (especially considering the fact - "regular" religions allow one-step deviation from patron's alignment anyway)

The other fix for Thrall of Zuggtmoy is presented right after ToZ, with Thrall of Dagon. Quote, "Ex-druids are perhaps the most unusual of Dagon's thralls. A druid who becomes chaotic evil loses all of her druid spells and abilities, but upon reaching 2nd level as a thrall of Dagon, she regains her spellcasting abilities. She also regains her animal companion, but only if her animal companion is aquatic. She does no regain any of her other druidic abilities such as wild shape or trackless step."

But yeah, allowing all the "Thrall of ___" classes a step of deviation doesn't seem like a bad idea either.

[Elkad]

A classic party is 1 fighter , 1 rogue , 1 cleric and 1 mage . Seems like you swopped out a fighter for another cleric .

The 4 man party is a mighty recent construction. 6-10 was the rule through all those old modules, and every game I ever played in.
Even now I prefer to DM for parties of at least 6. Less than that and I'll be encouraging them to pick up henchmen or something.

Just to pick one at random.
Against the Giants, G1-3.
"The optimum mix for a group is 9 characters of various classes, with an average experience level of at least 9th. "

[Zombimode]

The 4 man party is a mighty recent construction.

"Recent" in the sense of "18 years old" :smalltongue:

[tiercel]

I suppose an alternative question would be “what changes to Cleric would be necessary for Favored Soul to not feel like a strictly lesser version?”

Banning Divine Metamagic? Banning [Divine] feats altogether? (I’d wonder about “restrict number of spells known/retrievable” or “remove turn undead” but that would just make the Cleric more like the Favored Soul.). Make Cloistered Cleric the default/only Cleric variant, together with a DMM ban? Also together with at Knowledge Devotion ban? And splitting the Cleric caster stats while UNsplitting Favored Soul to cast purely off Charisma? Making Cleric LA+2?

[Fizban]

Ban [Divine] feats altogether, ban domains (including the domain slot), ban Cloistered Cleric while you're at it, ban the use of turn undead to power Devotion feats, and make the cleric split ability casting. Put all of those together and you are now roughly analagous to the wiz/sorc dynamic, except clerics get turn undead and a maxed out spellbook instead of feats, and favored souls get resistance/weapon spec/flight instead of nothing.

[Anthrowhale]

Cleric spell access is a fundamental issue since they have access to everything. Damaging a Cleric so FS is not overshadowed implies damaging spell access.

A simple approach would be something like "A cleric's spell list is only those spells on the domains of their deity". This gives the FS a broader ability to pick spells from the (current) cleric list while leaving a bunch of unique abilities with clerics related to turn undead and domain powers as well as earlier spell level access. It also makes clerics much more unique since their deity defines their spell access. In effect, every deity generates a different divine casting class.

[Fizban]

That's not tenable though. Even if you allow every book so the major deities end up with half a dozen domains each, the spell list will barely match the Favored Soul's, except with no choice. Domains were specifically built as a compiment to the main cleric list, not a replacement, and the domain lists of deities aren't made for functional casters.

The divine caster role is about having the answers required to progress the game. The change from the more specific/limited spheres of previous editions to a core spell list with domains for flavor says everything you need to know: all PC clerics should have access to all of these spells all the time. Take away that spell list, and the cleric can't actually do their job- that's why when I poked at making divine spheres the first I had to make were the "actually be a cleric" spheres, and that's a lot of spells.


Actually an experienced player can build a rogue good enough to be on the frontline . Might have less HP and light armour but why hide him in the back if his AC is twice that of an armoured cleric ?
Ignoring that what an "experienced" player *can* do doesn't matter, I find this unlikely. The armor and max dex system puts a soft cap on max AC that's the same weather you use light or heavy armor, so they only way a rogue is having more AC is if they have more than +10 dex and/or something else ridiculous. The cleric doesn't have any pressure to disregard shields, and has Shield of Faith, one of the two bread and butter AC buffs. I expect most of what you're talking about has nothing to do with the rogue- a dozen PrCs and feats and partial wands is a workaround, while the cleric is designed to be a second tank (with the only core tanking ability: shield and heavy armor prof).

[Anthrowhale]

That's not tenable though. Even if you allow every book so the major deities end up with half a dozen domains each, the spell list will barely match the Favored Soul's, except with no choice. Domains were specifically built as a compiment to the main cleric list, not a replacement, and the domain lists of deities aren't made for functional casters.

No other proposals appear adequate to actually make the FS not be overshadowed.

You could strength the 'domains only' approach to be "all spells on a deity's domains and Conjuration(Healing) spells".

[Fizban]

I think my expansion of tiercel's list was pretty comprehensive. Unless you outright reject the idea that a full-list (prepared) caster can exist in a world with limited list (spontaneous) casters. Which is kinda missing the whole point of the class.

[rel]

After the fight pfff.....a good dedicated cleric should drop everything and heal during a fight . After the fight you can sleep it off or go to a temple . My very first campaign had two clerics , which 90 percent of the time killed and frontlined . My Barbarian got no healing until after the fight and well they moaned about losing spells .
My last campaign was awesome , our Priest player kept asking during a fight , who has low HP ?


In my experience healing does not exceed the average damage enemies deal so healing in combat is a poor use of your actions a lot of the time.


Have you ever seen your players go ape nutz , throwing dice at DM when monsters have a healer in their group and that wierdo runs around giving HP back to that freak chopping at the players ? There is a very good reason for that .


Never seen this. If an enemy has a dedicated healer/regeneration/huge HP you throw CC effects so the enemy cannot act against you despite being alive and on full health

[Pugwampy]

In my experience healing does not exceed the average damage enemies deal so healing in combat is a poor use of your actions a lot of the time.

Agreed but it helps alot and is very much appreciated and buys time .
A poor use of your actions is letting your buddy go down in 3 rounds or less because you thought healing him is a waste of your time . your maths and ego just got you into bigger trouble .



Never seen this. If an enemy has a dedicated healer/regeneration/huge HP you throw CC effects so the enemy cannot act against you despite being alive and on full health

Not everyone plays at the same skill level . Some parties dont have a CC specialist .

[weckar]

Skypledged may(?) grant access to all PHB Druid spells.This seems quite clear? You can get them from the spellpool, but they are otherwise still just 'foreign' spells.

[Anthrowhale]

This seems quite clear? You can get them from the spellpool, but they are otherwise still just 'foreign' spells.

The class was clearly made with prepared casters in mind which leads to odd effects for spontaneous casters. My reading is that by RAW a FS can enter and cast any Druid spell but they cannot pay back spell debt in the normal way. Hence, the only mechanism they have for repeated use involves entering the pledgebreaker status and then casting atonement to end it.

You might be able to get around this by somehow getting access to spontaneous arcane spells (?) then getting 'arcane preparation'. Perhaps some minimal form of arcane spells + Alternate Source Spell.