Staffs in 3.5

[Celebandùne]

Hey folks,
I have a question that, I'm sure, came up already 654 times.
In the DMG, it says the following about Staffs:

"A staff is a long shaft of wood that stores several spells. Unlike
wands (see page 245), which can contain a wide variety of spells,
each staff is of a certain kind and holds specific spells. A staff has
50 charges when created."

But then, when presenting some Staffs, it mostly lists several spells that have 1 to up to 3 charges each.

So...what is the deal there? And where are Staffs different than Wands? Because it seems to me, they copy-pasted the description of wands, to a certain extend, but then go on to list a series of Staffs that have nothing to do with that description. So...where is the Mistake? What are Staffs?

[Zanos]

That's the number of charges out of the 50 that using that spell costs, not how many charges of that spell the staff has.

A fresh staff of evocation has 50 charges, If you use chain lightning twice(3 charges) ice storm once (2 charges) and magic missile once(1 charge) the staff has 50-3*2-2-1 = 41 charges remaining.

Staffs also allow a caster to use their caster level and saving throw DCs.

[Telonius]

I think what they were trying to get across is that you'd expect to be able to find or buy a Wand of every spell of 4th level and lower; basically, same as scrolls. But if you're looking for a Staff, then Ye Olde Magick Shoppe is only going to have a limited supply available, and the ones it does have available aren't going to cover the whole list of spells in the game.

EDIT: that's leaving aside custom creation. The math there gets complicated pretty quickly, especially if you're trying to cut down creation costs by making the spell cost 2 or more charges.

[Afgncaap5]

Yeah, when you use the custom item creation guidelines, it's really easy for staffs (staves?) to look a lot like wands that just have multiple spells with different costs for using them. But between the aforementioned ability to use a caster's own level and DCs, and the fact that they're meant to be pretty rare , they might be best used as DM story hooks. "Oh no, the staff of shadows, now he'll cast those super rare spells all day!" etc.

[Celebandùne]

That's the number of charges out of the 50 that using that spell costs, not how many charges of that spell the staff has.

A fresh staff of evocation has 50 charges, If you use chain lightning twice(3 charges) ice storm once (2 charges) and magic missile once(1 charge) the staff has 50-3*2-2-1 = 41 charges remaining.

Staffs also allow a caster to use their caster level and saving throw DCs.



This is what I was looking for! Thank you!! =)


And also thank you other guys as well! =)
Staffs really seem to be powerful now that I got it! =)

[Vaern]

By the time my DM finally rolled a staff of healing for loot, none of us yet understood how staves worked. I thought they were horribly underpowered, only having a couple charges of each spell, until I encountered this tidbit in the item creation section:

If desired, a spell can be placed into the staff at only half the normal cost, but then activating that particular spell costs 2 charges from the staff.
After realizing that the numbers were the cost of carrying and not actually charges of each spell, we had the DM roll before the next session to determine how many actual charges were on the staff.

[weckar]

Without a method to actually recharge a staff in any way, though, it is still only going to be a novelty and not the character-defining-item staffs should be to a wizard.

[Bronk]

Without a method to actually recharge a staff in any way, though, it is still only going to be a novelty and not the character-defining-item staffs should be to a wizard.

There are a few ways of recharging staffs though, although most of them are pretty involved.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?370386-Recharging-Staff-Cost

[Vaern]

I mean, after burning out all of the charges, you still have a masterwork staff that you can use as the base of a new staff. By "crafting" a new staff from the old core, you effectively recharge it.

There's also runestaves, which function by consuming one of your own spells to convert it into another spell rather than consuming charges. That seems rather more like the stereotypical character-defining wizard's staff. Likely they were created in the first place because someone thought that a staff should be used as a tool to shape power, rather than the magical battery that the core books made them.

[rel]

You don't recharge a staff, you reforge it. That way it grows in power as you do, changing to meet your evolving desires.

My main problem with staffs is that (as with rings) crafting one requires reaching level 12.

That said, if I ever play a suitably high level wizard I'm going to enchant my walking stick (heavily enchanted quarterstaff) into a proper wizard staff as soon as I can qualify for the feat.

[Caelestion]

For what it's worth, I amended the Craft Wand feat to allow the creation of rods at 7th-level and staves at 9th-level, cutting down the amount of feats you need to produce magical items and reducing the required level too. I did the same for Forge Ring (merging it into Craft Wondrous Item) and even Craft Consumable (1st: scrolls, 3rd: potions, 5th: single-use wondrous items).

[Fouredged Sword]

A proper wizard's staff is a magic staff with two wand chambers, elvencraft, with solid defensive and utility enchantments on the three masterwork weapons it counts as.

[weckar]

A proper wizard's staff is a magic staff with two wand chambers, elvencraft, with solid defensive and utility enchantments on the three masterwork weapons it counts as.

You care to break that down? How does it count as three weapons?

[Fouredged Sword]

An elvencraft bow is a weapon that is both a quarterstaff and a bow. The bow segment is enchanted sepaeratly. A quarterstaff is a double weapon, meaning you can enchant both ends differently. A quarterstaff can have a wand chamber built into each end. A quaterstaff can ne enchanted into a magic staff.

On top of that a quarter staff can expressly be wielded one handed, allowing you to passivly use all the defensive enchantments of the weapoms while casting with your other hand.

[Caelestion]

Even if you think that the rest of that cheese would fly, you can't wield a bow one-handed.

[Fouredged Sword]

Even if you think that the rest of that cheese would fly, you can't wield a bow one-handed.

No, that is why the bow tends to get utility enchantments that are useful, but not needed at all times.

[Vaern]

You can't use a bow one-handed, but you can carry it with one hand. Likewise, you can carry a staff in one hand, though you would need both to use it effectively as a weapon. If all of the enchantments are defensive, though, you generally don't need to be swinging a staff or firing a bow to gain the bonus. You only need to be holding it.

[Fouredged Sword]

You can't use a bow one-handed, but you can carry it with one hand. Likewise, you can carry a staff in one hand, though you would need both to use it effectively as a weapon. If all of the enchantments are defensive, though, you generally don't need to be swinging a staff or firing a bow to gain the bonus. You only need to be holding it.

No, you can expressly wield a quaterstaff in one hand. Read the srd entry for quarterstaff. You can only wield one end at a time.

[Grytorm]

I like the Pathfinder version of staffs. They only hold 10 charges but they can be recharged by casters by giving up a spellslot at the beginning of the day.

[ayvango]

I like the Pathfinder version of staffs. They only hold 10 charges but they can be recharged by casters by giving up a spellslot at the beginning of the day.
I backport them to d&d with home rule under name of "orbs" to distinguish them from staffs and runestaffs.

[Caelestion]

What defensive enhancements can you put on a weapon that still function even when you're not wielding the weapon?

[Fouredged Sword]

What defensive enhancements can you put on a weapon that still function even when you're not wielding the weapon?
You generally put the enchantments you want on your turn on one end of the quarterstaff and defensive enchantments on the other end. You release and rewield the staff with your off hand to cast. You never stop wielding your dominant end, but can still use things like smokeing on the off end.

I generally don't actually use this to get MORE enchantments. Rather i get the enchantments i would get anyway cheaper.
Two +3 weapons are cheaper than a +5 weapon. A +3 and +2 weapon is cheaper than a +4.

[ayvango]

An elvencraft bow is a weapon that is both a quarterstaff and a bow. The bow segment is enchanted sepaeratly. A quarterstaff is a double weapon, meaning you can enchant both ends differently. A quarterstaff can have a wand chamber built into each end. A quaterstaff can ne enchanted into a magic staff.

On top of that a quarter staff can expressly be wielded one handed, allowing you to passivly use all the defensive enchantments of the weapoms while casting with your other hand.
That would make the archstaff extremely expensive. How would you protect it from harm? Some crazy warrior could sunder it with brute force

[Deophaun]

Consider that you can already have a primary weapon, a secondary weapon, two gauntlets, boot blades, armor spikes, elbow blades, etc., etc., this staff-ception weapon doesn't really net you all that much. I mean, it's nice and convenient when the enemy has to choose something to sunder, but otherwise, meh.

[Fouredged Sword]

It's really not all that expensive past 6th level. The base item is only a few thousand gp and you pay that for lots of masterwork no mater what.

That said, I have never played with a DM who sundered the party's stuff. He WAS happy to have "Enemies teleport into camp. You are in your PJ's. Prepare to repel the attack." Having a single item you can pick up and go with was really useful.

I also just like quarterstaffs. They are a solid 2 handed weapon. I have built fighters around them. Good offensive enchantments on the maim end, defending on the backside. Best simple weapon in the game. Being able to carry arrows to shoot without swapping weapons is also very nice.

[Vizzerdrix]

It's really not all that expensive past 6th level. The base item is only a few thousand gp and you pay that for lots of masterwork no mater what.

That said, I have never played with a DM who sundered the party's stuff. He WAS happy to have "Enemies teleport into camp. You are in your PJ's. Prepare to repel the attack." Having a single item you can pick up and go with was really useful.

I also just like quarterstaffs. They are a solid 2 handed weapon. I have built fighters around them. Good offensive enchantments on the maim end, defending on the backside. Best simple weapon in the game. Being able to carry arrows to shoot without swapping weapons is also very nice.

Could also put alchemy capsuels on it. I think a few weapon improvements can get added. Didnt I see a spike shooter attachment for weapons in a faerun book?

[Deophaun]

He WAS happy to have "Enemies teleport into camp. You are in your PJ's. Prepare to repel the attack."
Why is your DM saying what your characters are wearing?

By the time enemies are teleporting into your camp, you shouldn't need to sleep anymore. And I don't know why any wizard is bothering to change for bed while in camp either: they don't wear medium armor and prestidigitation is a thing for taking care of the RP business of having fresh clothes and kempt hair at level 1.

[lbuttitta]

If you were wondering what the cost change for a spell costing multiple charges was, it's that the price of the spell is divided by the number of charges it requires.

Entirely tangentially, it would be interesting to homebrew a recharging staff. Heresy, I know, but something's always bothered me about how wands and staves in D&D are essentially useless once they've run out of charges. I liked 5E's method of handling wands, even though 3E's method gives them more usage at one time.

[Caelestion]

I generally don't actually use this to get MORE enchantments. Rather i get the enchantments i would get anyway cheaper.
Two +3 weapons are cheaper than a +5 weapon. A +3 and +2 weapon is cheaper than a +4.

As this is D&D and not TES games, they're enhancements, not enchantments. Enchantments are spells that affect the mind.

[Fouredged Sword]

Why is your DM saying what your characters are wearing?

By the time enemies are teleporting into your camp, you shouldn't need to sleep anymore. And I don't know why any wizard is bothering to change for bed while in camp either: they don't wear medium armor and prestidigitation is a thing for taking care of the RP business of having fresh clothes and kempt hair at level 1.

We got to say what our pjs are. He just told us everyone but the watch character was sleeping. We didn't actually play full minmax, we just like cool gadgets.

[ExLibrisMortis]

As this is D&D and not TES games, they're enhancements, not enchantments. Enchantments are spells that affect the mind.
You would think that, but "enhancement" is only ever a bonus type*. Armour, weapons, and shields have "special abilities" or "properties". Craft Magic Arms and Armour does use "enhance" to refer to the crafting process, but the result is never* called "enhancement". "Enchanted" and "enchantment" are never* used to refer to magic item abilities or properties, either. Probably because it would be confusing.

I mean, your point sort of stands, but then again, if I want to call it a weapon enchantment, it's pretty clear what I mean. No need to be fussy.


*I ctrl-f'd the DMG and MIC, so don't take this as gospel.

[Caelestion]

I was just channelling Sean K Reynolds (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/terminology.html) there. Little has changed in almost 16 years, it seems. :smallsmile:

[Deophaun]

I was just channelling Sean K Reynolds (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/terminology.html) there. Little has changed in almost 16 years, it seems. :smallsmile:
My first thought reading that was "Who's 'we,' bub?" He gets into TSR as a web developer in the mid 90's, six years after 2nd edition came out and the design decisions he talks about were already done with.

My second thought reading that was "Make me." I mean, I agree with Caelestion, but screw it. It's all "enchantment bonus" and "fighteress" from here on out.

[Thurbane]

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary


enchantment
Enchantment spells affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior. All enchantments are mind-affecting spells. Two types of enchantment spells grant you influence over a subject creature.
Source: PHB


enhancement bonus
A bonus that represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies. Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor's bonus to AC, they don't apply against touch attacks.
Source: PHB

[ottdmk]

No, you can expressly wield a quaterstaff in one hand. Read the srd entry for quarterstaff. You can only wield one end at a time.You're mistaken. A staff is a two-handed weapon.
Two-Handed

Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1½ times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

Now, I can see why it's confusing, as the SRD Quarterstaff listing lists this:
Quarterstaff

A quarterstaff is a double weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. A creature wielding a quarterstaff in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

So, the quarterstaff is listed as a two-handed weapon. Yet the weapon entry specifically says you can't use it as a double weapon if you're using it one-handed. A contradiction... how is it resolved?

By the rules on Weapon Sizes and Inappropriately Sized Weapons.
Weapon Size

Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.
A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

Inappropriately Sized Weapons

A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

So, under these rules, a medium sized creature could use a small sized quarterstaff one-handed. In that case, even if you have Two-Weapon Fighting, you can't use the staff as a double-weapon.

But a normal quarterstaff, one sized for your character's actual Size? You can't use that one-handed.

[tiercel]

But a normal quarterstaff, one sized for your character's actual Size? You can't use that one-handed.

Well not as a weapon to swing for 1d6 damage, but presumably you could use a magic staff and invoke its spells just fine one-handed. So it depends what kind of "use" we are talking about?

[ayvango]

If you get +5 enhancement bonus to both ends of a staff, what impact would it have on HD and hardness? Does it stack in any way?

[Fouredged Sword]

If you get +5 enhancement bonus to both ends of a staff, what impact would it have on HD and hardness? Does it stack in any way?

The bonuses are the same type so do not stack.

[Calthropstu]

I tried to use my staff as a weapon, but they threatened to quit.

[Calthropstu]

You're mistaken. A staff is a two-handed weapon.

Now, I can see why it's confusing, as the SRD Quarterstaff listing lists this:

So, the quarterstaff is listed as a two-handed weapon. Yet the weapon entry specifically says you can't use it as a double weapon if you're using it one-handed. A contradiction... how is it resolved?

By the rules on Weapon Sizes and Inappropriately Sized Weapons.


So, under these rules, a medium sized creature could use a small sized quarterstaff one-handed. In that case, even if you have Two-Weapon Fighting, you can't use the staff as a double-weapon.

But a normal quarterstaff, one sized for your character's actual Size? You can't use that one-handed.

I thought a staff was an item with spells stored in it...

[ayvango]

The bonuses are the same type so do not stack.
But they are applied to different ends.

[rrwoods]

What’s the rule or interpretation that lets you turn a mw quarterstaff into a magic staff?

[rel]

Good question, I wonder if the rules for combining magical effects on the same item should apply.

When I last looked at this seriously as a player I decided to sidestep the issue and make a hollow tube and enchant it as a staff then slip it over a seperatly enchanted quarterstaff so I had two completely separate items that just happen to occupy the same physical space due to clever geometry.