Swords bard, a better swashbuckler.

[Dudewithknives]

Ok. Plan has completely changed.

Blades Bard

Stats of 18 16 15 15 14 13
Free feat at level 1
All official products are fine
No multiclassing

Game will go 1 to 20,
All I know is that we will have an airship eventually, one player is a half orc champion with a greatsword, we have 2 others and one is playing an arcane caster.

Looking to be primarily a melee combatant with spells as backup and buffs, so primary dex over Cha.

[DivisibleByZero]

I'd go with AT, because the spells will eventually trump what Swashbuckler offers, while retaining exactly what you were tying to accomplish from the start.
Note that you'll probably want/need Warcaster at some point if you actually want to cast most of your spells while dual wielding.

[Dudewithknives]

I'd go with AT, because the spells will eventually trump what Swashbuckler offers, while retaining exactly what you were tying to accomplish from the start.
Note that you'll probably want/need Warcaster at some point if you actually want to cast most of your spells while dual wielding.

Most of the spells I was going to get from AT was going to be out of combat utility like Disguise Self and such, or buffs I would do before I draw the offhand weapon anyway.

Some of my Powergamertm are already giving me flack over picking mage armor as my one open level 1 spell.

I am going to play a duelist one way or another, since they will not release one as a subclass, I will have to make do.

[Easy_Lee]

AT seems to be the better choice for this build. Mobile at 1 and dual wielder at 4 will have you TW fighting with rapier + dagger, using booming blade, and casting mage armor on yourself prior to entering dungeons.

I think this build is fine. Once you get Haste, you can hold your action to cast booming blade, make one attack for SA, then use your reaction to Blooming Blade and get SA again. Nothing wrong with that by any means. And while hasted, assuming mage armor and 18 dexterity, you'd have an AC of 20.

[Dudewithknives]

AT seems to be the better choice for this build. Mobile at 1 and dual wielder at 4 will have you TW fighting with rapier + dagger, using booming blade, and casting mage armor on yourself prior to entering dungeons.

I think this build is fine. Once you get Haste, you can hold your action to cast booming blade, make one attack for SA, then use your reaction to Blooming Blade and get SA again. Nothing wrong with that by any means. And while hasted, assuming mage armor and 18 dexterity, you'd have an AC of 20.

Yeah if I went AT that was the plan basically.

Although my DM found the idea that you can not dual wield a dagger and a rapier stupid so in his game only the off hand has to be light. I do not need the dual wielder feat, but i may take it anyway just for the +1 AC and the drawing of 2 weapons.

[Easy_Lee]

Yeah if I went AT that was the plan basically.

Although my DM found the idea that you can not dual wield a dagger and a rapier stupid so in his game only the off hand has to be light. I do not need the dual wielder feat, but i may take it anyway just for the +1 AC and the drawing of 2 weapons.

Ah, well in that case I'd say just go dexterity at 4 and 8. It grants +1 AC but has many other benefits, particularly to a rogue.

[DivisibleByZero]

Dual wielder is practically useless on a Rogue. Any Rogue who takes that feat has basically wasted an ASI.

Dual Wielder benefits:
Better weapons? It's an average of 1pt.
+1 AC
Draw two weapons

+2 Dex benefits:
+1 attack
+1 damage
+1 AC
+1 Dex Saves
+1 initiative
+1 to many important skills

The struck through balance out.
So you're left with DW granting the ability to draw two weapons, and +2 Dex granting +1 attack, +1 Dex saves, +1 to initiative, and +1 to many skills

Either way you're getting +1 AC and +1 damage, so:
You can choose to act faster, be more accurate, be more nimble, and be better at your role....
.... or you can choose to draw two weapons.

DW on a Rogue is the worst.

[Lord8Ball]

If you go arcane trickster you should look at the mobile feat. It can make up for the free disengage that the swashbuckler would get.

[Dudewithknives]

If you go arcane trickster you should look at the mobile feat. It can make up for the free disengage that the swashbuckler would get.

It did, it is in the OP...

[Dudewithknives]

Dual wielder is practically useless on a Rogue. Any Rogue who takes that feat has basically wasted an ASI.

Dual Wielder benefits:
Better weapons? It's an average of 1pt.
+1 AC
Draw two weapons

+2 Dex benefits:
+1 attack
+1 damage
+1 AC
+1 Dex Saves
+1 initiative
+1 to many important skills

The struck through balance out.
So you're left with DW granting the ability to draw two weapons, and +2 Dex granting +1 attack, +1 Dex saves, +1 to initiative, and +1 to many skills

You can choose to act faster, be more accurate, be more nimble, and be better at your role....
.... or you can choose to draw two weapons.

DW on a Rogue is the worst.

I was not going to take it until my dex is maxed.

We are rolling stats, so it is possible I will start with a 20 dex anyway.

[DivisibleByZero]

I was not going to take it until my dex is maxed.

We are rolling stats, so it is possible I will start with a 20 dex anyway.

It's still a terrible choice for a Rogue. Int if you go AT. Cha if you go Swashbuckler. Alert, Dungeon Delver, Healer, Lucky, Magic Initiate, Observant, Resilient, Ritual Caster, Sentinel, Skilled, Skulker, Tough, War Caster.
All better choices.

[Bloodcloud]

So here is my plan:

I want to play a duelist type character. Rapier in one hand and dagger/shortsword in the other, think rogue equivalent of Zorro or a Musketeer not ninja or thief.

Almost exclusively a dual wielder, will throw a dagger if he has to.

It comes down to two choices: Note, we get a free first level fear, and the DM has ruled only the off hand has to be light for dual wielding, not both.

A: Rogue - Swashbuckler to get the ability to ignore Opportunity attacks. First level feat: Magic Initiate for Booming Blade, Mage Hand and Mage Armor

or

B: Rogue - Arcane Trickster, to get Mage hand, booming blade and mage armor. First level feat: Mobile for ignoring Opportunity attacks and slight speed boost.

I am usually pretty indecisive on these things.

I know I want to dual wield, have booming blade and mage armor, and ignore opportunity attacks. The question is, which way to do it.

Booming blade is not compatible with dual wielding for your info.

If you want pure duelist style, ftr battlemaster/rogue swashbuckler should give you everything you want flavorwise.

[Easy_Lee]

Booming blade is not compatible with dual wielding for your info.

If you want pure duelist style, ftr battlemaster/rogue swashbuckler should give you everything you want flavorwise.

Come to think of it, nor is it compatible with haste. A rogue may hold his action to use booming blade then use the haste action to make one attack. Technically, that is not the attack action. Some DMs may still allow a bonus action attack from TWF, others won't.

I would remove that limitation from the TWF bonus attack because I dislike it, but that's just my preference.

[Dudewithknives]

Booming blade is not compatible with dual wielding for your info.

If you want pure duelist style, ftr battlemaster/rogue swashbuckler should give you everything you want flavorwise.

The dual wielding is more for a backup to have a throwing weapon on hand if I need it, or in those cases where I really have to hit and I don't booming blade and I make 2 attacks.
I can't use a shield so might as well keep 2 weapons.

In most cases it will be BB with he rapier.
Unless I get boots of speed or go AT to get haste, then you can do both.

We aren't multi classing so can't dip something else.

[Dudewithknives]

Come to think of it, nor is it compatible with haste. A rogue may hold his action to use booming blade then use the haste action to make one attack. Technically, that is not the attack action. Some DMs may still allow a bonus action attack from TWF, others won't.

I would remove that limitation from the TWF bonus attack because I dislike it, but that's just my preference.

Actually haste does say take the attack action, just with the clause you can make 1 attack, like with fighter 5 or others that can make 2 attacks with the attack action. The bonus attack from TWF is not the attack action, it is different but with the requirement that you have taken the attack action, which you did with haste.

[Dudewithknives]

At this point I think I would be better off just designing a subclass for "Duelist"

I will put one together and post it in a bit.

[DivisibleByZero]

At this point I think I would be better off just designing a subclass for "Duelist"

I will put one together and post it in a bit.

Dex build Battlemaster. That's 5e's Duelist.
Disarming, evasive, feinting, lunging, maneuvering, parry, precision, riposte, pick your favs.
BM3 / any rogue you want X

[Dudewithknives]

Duelist subclass: Rogue

3rd

Elusive Footwork: While wearing no armor and not wielding a shield you may calculate your armor class as 10 + Dexterity bonus + Intelligence bonus.


Fighting style: You may choose either the Dueling or the Two Weapon Fighting fighting styles to train in.


9th: Parry: When you are struck by a weapon attack by an opponent you can see, as a reaction make an attack roll, if this roll is higher than the attack roll used to hit you, the attack misses as it is parried away.


13th: Master Duelist: You may use two reactions per round instead of one. You must have separate triggers for each.


17th: The Perfect Stroke: Once per long rest, whenever you strike an opponent with a sneak attack, you may forgo rolling dice and choose to deal maximum damage.



Might change the level 13 ability to something a little more utilitarian, or make the level 17 ability 1/SR instead of long.

[Bloodcloud]

Duelist subclass: Rogue

3rd

Elusive Footwork: While wearing no armor and not wielding a shield you may calculate your armor class as 10 + Dexterity bonus + Intelligence bonus.


Fighting style: You may choose either the Dueling or the Two Weapon Fighting fighting styles to train in.


9th: Parry: When you are struck by a weapon attack by an opponent you can see, as a reaction make an attack roll, if this roll is higher than the attack roll used to hit you, the attack misses as it is parried away.


13th: Master Duelist: You may use two reactions per round instead of one. You must have separate triggers for each.


17th: The Perfect Stroke: Once per long rest, whenever you strike an opponent with a sneak attack, you may forgo rolling dice and choose to deal maximum damage.



Might change the level 13 ability to something a little more utilitarian, or make the level 17 ability 1/SR instead of long.

I always considered the swashbuckler to be a duelist subclass, and i'll admit i'm unsure how this subclass fit the bill better? How would homebrew be acceptable but not an entirely logical multiclass?

[Dudewithknives]

I always considered the swashbuckler to be a duelist subclass, and i'll admit i'm unsure how this subclass fit the bill better? How would homebrew be acceptable but not an entirely logical multiclass?

I did not say that Swashbuckler was not acceptable, just that it did not really do what the classes Duelist classes did which are 3 main things.

1. Fight extremely well with a finesse weapon.

If a freaking Bard, which is already a full caster, and can cherry pick spell lists, and gets another great use for Inspiration dice can get fighting styles then the Rogue is LONG overdue to have a subclass that gets one.

2. Have a form of Unarmored Defense.

Also because unlike Monk which use Wisdom which is one of the best stats in the game, or Barbarian who use Con which is also a great stat AND they can use a shield too, this should definitely be an acceptable trade.

3. Make great use of melee defense specialties like parry.

Yeah this one can be done by a battle master. No argument there.

[DivisibleByZero]

Now that you mention it, why not Bard?
Swords, with his spells being refluffed as "maneuvers" or however you want, would actually work pretty well.

[Dudewithknives]

Now that you mention it, why not Bard?
Swords, with his spells being refluffed as "maneuvers" or however you want, would actually work pretty well.

That is true.

I could take either mobility or magic initiate at first.

Let me make some sheets and compare.

[Dudewithknives]

Now that you mention it, why not Bard?
Swords, with his spells being refluffed as "maneuvers" or however you want, would actually work pretty well.

Ok, I am liking your idea of Blades Bard better than my swashbuckler one.

The bard gets two attacks and a fighting style which works very well. The backup buffs and utility is great.

Now just to see what I can do with the blades bard.

We are getting a free feat at level 1 and rolling for stats.

We have an odd way of doing stats. All 4 people in the game roll one set and we pick the best set, then everyone uses those.

So far the best set is.

13 14 15 15 16 18.

With one person left to roll so I will at least have stats that good.

Tabaxi maybe.

Str. 13
Dex 20
Con 16
Int. 14
Wis. 16
Cha 16

The extra 2 skills, and climb speed will be nice.
Darkvision is always great, and the double move is gold.

Now what first level feat.

I know it might not be the most optimized but dual wield is not horrible.

Mobile is always great.

Or

Magic initiate wizard for mage armor, firebolt, and mage hand.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Blades Bard does look like fun. I'd probably swap your Dex and Cha, so you can start with 18/18. Don't forget, you need Cha for your Inspiration Dice, which the Swords Bard looks like it's going to devour. Mobile is partially redundant with Flourishes, but I suspect it would do more for your survivability long-term than Mage Armor, soooo...

[History_buff]

Warcaster is an amazing feat for swords bard and I swear by it. If you can find a way to get shield proficiency, then that’s +2 AC and makes dueling a better option. Also think about expertising Athletics and getting Shield Master.

With Warcaster, you can cast spells with your hands full, besides all the other great stuff. Swords bard can use their weapons for material components. I.e. no muss no fuss spellcasting. And it’s fun to role play it as using the weapon itself to manipulate the weave.

[Dudewithknives]

Warcaster is an amazing feat for swords bard and I swear by it. If you can find a way to get shield proficiency, then that’s +2 AC and makes dueling a better option. Also think about expertising Athletics and getting Shield Master.

With Warcaster, you can cast spells with your hands full, besides all the other great stuff. Swords bard can use their weapons for material components. I.e. no muss no fuss spellcasting. And it’s fun to role play it as using the weapon itself to manipulate the weave.

I am not going to have any of the melee cantrips, I can use my weapon as a casting focus so pretty much all Warcaster does for me is the bonus to keep concentration on spells, not sure it is worth a level 1 feat for that.

[Specter]

Arcane Trickster all the way.

With Mobile, you get the second best thing Swash has to offer. The spells, even if at low levels, will make a lot of difference in tankiness (Shield, Mirror Image, Blur) and in damage (Shadow Blade, Booming Blade). Swords Bard gets more spells, but geared more towards support, and the Inspiration dice will be spent very quickly.

[Dudewithknives]

Arcane Trickster all the way.

With Mobile, you get the second best thing Swash has to offer. The spells, even if at low levels, will make a lot of difference in tankiness (Shield, Mirror Image, Blur) and in damage (Shadow Blade, Booming Blade). Swords Bard gets more spells, but geared more towards support, and the Inspiration dice will be spent very quickly.

AT are stuck to just Illusion and Enchantment level 1 spells until level 7, except for 1 spell of any school. So I would have to spend my only 1st level non illusion/non enchantment spell on shield which is not worth it considering how few spell slots they get and I could not get Mirror Image or Blur until level 7.

[nirurin]

Arcane Trickster all the way.

With Mobile, you get the second best thing Swash has to offer. The spells, even if at low levels, will make a lot of difference in tankiness (Shield, Mirror Image, Blur) and in damage (Shadow Blade, Booming Blade). Swords Bard gets more spells, but geared more towards support, and the Inspiration dice will be spent very quickly.

Swords Bards can choose any two spells at level 10, which is pretty huge.

You can get 5 inspiration dice (20CHA), which gives you 5 flourishes. If you use them on defensive, and plan your usage well, you can get a D6/D8/D10 (depending on level) bonus to your AC for the rest of the round, which is at least equal to if not better than most other defensive options.

Especially as, lets take level 10 for an example, AT only gets 7 spell slots (4x1 and 3x2). So if you burn them all on shield, you can use it 7 times per long rest, and then you have no magic left until your next long rest.
Sword Bard can use Flourishes 5 times per -Short Rest-, which is a huge difference. Plus they do bonus damage with all their options like sneak attack, on top of the extra effects (+AC, mobility, AoE slashing).

And then they still have a bunch of spell slots available to burn through.

I have to say I do like Swords Bard as a rogue alternative.

Though I would personally prefer a single level in Sorcerer to get Shield and a couple extra cantrips. Hexblade Warlock gives shield+cantrips too, as well as some other great buffs, but it means being a devil worshipping Rock-Bard :P But as the OP isn't multiclassing it's not really important.

Magical Secrets + Useful crowd control + Short Rest Inspiration Flourishes. That's what I like.

[Specter]

AT are stuck to just Illusion and Enchantment level 1 spells until level 7, except for 1 spell of any school. So I would have to spend my only 1st level non illusion/non enchantment spell on shield which is not worth it considering how few spell slots they get and I could not get Mirror Image or Blur until level 7.

You can also get Find Familiar instead of Shield, which gives you advantage and lets you sneak attack wherever. Shield is just one option, and one that competes with Uncanny Dodge. But obviously, you're the OP and it's ultimately your decision.


Swords Bards can choose any two spells at level 10, which is pretty huge.

You can get 5 inspiration dice (20CHA), which gives you 5 flourishes. If you use them on defensive, and plan your usage well, you can get a D6/D8/D10 (depending on level) bonus to your AC for the rest of the round, which is at least equal to if not better than most other defensive options.

Especially as, lets take level 10 for an example, AT only gets 7 spell slots (4x1 and 3x2). So if you burn them all on shield, you can use it 7 times per long rest, and then you have no magic left until your next long rest.
Sword Bard can use Flourishes 5 times per -Short Rest-, which is a huge difference. Plus they do bonus damage with all their options like sneak attack, on top of the extra effects (+AC, mobility, AoE slashing).

And then they still have a bunch of spell slots available to burn through.

I have to say I do like Swords Bard as a rogue alternative.

Though I would personally prefer a single level in Sorcerer to get Shield and a couple extra cantrips. Hexblade Warlock gives shield+cantrips too, as well as some other great buffs, but it means being a devil worshipping Rock-Bard :P But as the OP isn't multiclassing it's not really important.

Magical Secrets + Useful crowd control + Short Rest Inspiration Flourishes. That's what I like.

You're only listing the advantages of Swords Bard and none of AT. That's hardly a comparison.

First of all, Sneak Attack. If you want to actually bother someone, you want great damage, not good damage. That and Booming Blade will guarantee your place as a striker. Here's a damage comparison at level 10, assuming hits:

AT
1d8 + 5d6 (SA) + 1d8 (BB) + 5 = 32AVG
No resources expended. If interested, add Shadow Blade for an extra 5.

Swords
2d8+ 2 (dueling) + 8 (DEXx2) +1d10 (flourish) = 23AVG
Expends one Insipiration die.

Secondly, but not less important, are Rogue's defensive abilities. Cunning Action lets you position yourself pretty much anywhere on the battlefield, something Bards can't ever do (unless you're taking Misty Step for your Magical Secret at level 10). Uncanny Dodge lets you destroy single-attack creatures, and make you last a lot longer against others, and it's permanent. Evasion needs no introduction.

Swords' Bard wants CHA and DEX maxed ASAP, which won't happen before level 16. Arcane Trickster wants high INT (~16) but can make do with 10, so you are SAD.

Also, Swords Bard doesn't 'get' 5 dice for flourishes, at least not like that. At Bard 1, you get Bardic Inspiration, which you will be handing out to your colleagues during the fight to help them. If you decide later on to use all of these dice in flourishes, your party will be losing the support it once had, and you'll be trading one good thing for another. Treating flourishes like superiority dice is not wise, because they tap on a pool of resources that could save your party.

Most of these points also apply to Swashbuckler.

[Byke]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned 1-3 levels of Hexblade. It's just to good to pass up as a Charisma character and shores up all of the weakness of the class.

[Dudewithknives]

Swords Bards can choose any two spells at level 10, which is pretty huge.

You can get 5 inspiration dice (20CHA), which gives you 5 flourishes. If you use them on defensive, and plan your usage well, you can get a D6/D8/D10 (depending on level) bonus to your AC for the rest of the round, which is at least equal to if not better than most other defensive options.

Especially as, lets take level 10 for an example, AT only gets 7 spell slots (4x1 and 3x2). So if you burn them all on shield, you can use it 7 times per long rest, and then you have no magic left until your next long rest.
Sword Bard can use Flourishes 5 times per -Short Rest-, which is a huge difference. Plus they do bonus damage with all their options like sneak attack, on top of the extra effects (+AC, mobility, AoE slashing).

And then they still have a bunch of spell slots available to burn through.

I have to say I do like Swords Bard as a rogue alternative.

Though I would personally prefer a single level in Sorcerer to get Shield and a couple extra cantrips. Hexblade Warlock gives shield+cantrips too, as well as some other great buffs, but it means being a devil worshipping Rock-Bard :P But as the OP isn't multiclassing it's not really important.

Magical Secrets + Useful crowd control + Short Rest Inspiration Flourishes. That's what I like.

so many nice choices for level 10 magical secrets, Glad I have 10 levels to plan. I am rather indecisive.

[DivisibleByZero]

You're only listing the advantages of Swords Bard and none of AT. That's hardly a comparison.

First of all, Sneak Attack. If you want to actually bother someone, you want great damage, not good damage. That and Booming Blade will guarantee your place as a striker. Here's a damage comparison at level 10, assuming hits:

AT
1d8 + 5d6 (SA) + 1d8 (BB) + 5 = 32AVG
No resources expended. If interested, add Shadow Blade for an extra 5.

Swords
2d8+ 2 (dueling) + 8 (DEXx2) +1d10 (flourish) = 23AVG
Expends one Insipiration die.
Rogue will do better damage. Everyone knows that.


Secondly, but not less important, are Rogue's defensive abilities. Cunning Action lets you position yourself pretty much anywhere on the battlefield, something Bards can't ever do (unless you're taking Misty Step for your Magical Secret at level 10). Uncanny Dodge lets you destroy single-attack creatures, and make you last a lot longer against others, and it's permanent. Evasion needs no introduction.
Something bards can't ever do?
He's talking about playing a Tabaxi Blade with Mobile.
Movement 40 base, movement 50 with no OAs against targets if he attacks, and go ahead and toss a racial speed boost or a Flourish on there for good measure.
He'll get around just fine, thank you.
As for the rest, he's trading a bit of defense for a lot of utility.


Swords' Bard wants CHA and DEX maxed ASAP, which won't happen before level 16. Arcane Trickster wants high INT (~16) but can make do with 10, so you are SAD.
Maybe you missed the part where he already stated what his minimum stats would be.


Also, Swords Bard doesn't 'get' 5 dice for flourishes, at least not like that. At Bard 1, you get Bardic Inspiration, which you will be handing out to your colleagues during the fight to help them. If you decide later on to use all of these dice in flourishes, your party will be losing the support it once had, and you'll be trading one good thing for another. Treating flourishes like superiority dice is not wise, because they tap on a pool of resources that could save your party.
Unless you don't hand them out like that?
Or unless you get high enough level to use the Flourishes with a d6 for free, saving your actual dice for the party?
Not every bard needs to play support all the time. If someone came to the table with a Blade described as a duelist, the rest of the party better not expect a lot of BI dice passed around. That's about on the same level as the party getting mad because the Arcane Archer Fighter isn't tanking. It's not his fault that you have unreasonable expectations based on the class stereotype with no thought of the subclass involved.

[Specter]

Rogue will do better damage. Everyone knows that.

Something bards can't ever do?
He's talking about playing a Tabaxi Blade with Mobile.
Movement 40 base, movement 50 with no OAs against targets if he attacks, and go ahead and toss a racial speed boost or a Flourish on there for good measure.
He'll get around just fine, thank you.
As for the rest, he's trading a bit of defense for a lot of utility.

Maybe you missed the part where he already stated what his minimum stats would be.

Unless you don't hand them out like that?
Or unless you get high enough level to use the Flourishes with a d6 for free, saving your actual dice for the party?
Not every bard needs to play support all the time. If someone came to the table with a Blade described as a duelist, the rest of the party better not expect a lot of BI dice passed around. That's about on the same level as the party getting mad because the Arcane Archer Fighter isn't tanking. It's not his fault that you have unreasonable expectations.

- "Tabaxi maybe" is not Tabaxi. Also, that's comparing a Bard with Mobile vs. a Rogue without one, and Rogue still pulls ahead in the mobility department. Every time you need to take a feat to do something someone else can do, you have to wonder why not take the other stuff and take another feat.
- It's not a bit of defense; it's permanently cutting one attack in half, and permanently being comfortable around Fireballs and all other DEX effects. Notice that stuff like Blindsense and Elusive wasn't even mentioned, because I'm not considering higher levels (after all, you still need to get there).
- In the case of pumped up stats, AT still holds the same advantage. You'll start with 20 DEX, and all the other ASI's can go towards boosting CON and INT to the maximum, or picking up many other feats like Alert, Tough, Resilient (CON) and whatever. Ritual Caster recommended for that utility. Plus, 6 ASI's instead of 5.
- It doesn't matter what they will be used for; it matters what it can be used for. If I'm playing a Wizard and blowing all my slots in damaging stuff, someone will eventually say 'hey, there are better things you can do occasionally'. So you either have to consider you won't use everything in flourishes, or that you'll be playing suboptimally, because sometimes inspiring will be the right thing to do, period.
- Sure, that level 14 ability is nice. It's a shame that by then you won't be able to compete damage-wise with any decent martial.

The only area where you can say that Swords will pull ahead of a Rogue as a duelist is in utility/healing, things that you don't really need to duel at all.

[nirurin]

- "Tabaxi maybe" is not Tabaxi. Also, that's comparing a Bard with Mobile vs. a Rogue without one, and Rogue still pulls ahead in the mobility department. Every time you need to take a feat to do something someone else can do, you have to wonder why not take the other stuff and take another feat.
- It's not a bit of defense; it's permanently cutting one attack in half, and permanently being comfortable around Fireballs and all other DEX effects. Notice that stuff like Blindsense and Elusive wasn't even mentioned, because I'm not considering higher levels (after all, you still need to get there).
- In the case of pumped up stats, AT still holds the same advantage. You'll start with 20 DEX, and all the other ASI's can go towards boosting CON and INT to the maximum, or picking up many other feats like Alert, Tough, Resilient (CON) and whatever. Ritual Caster recommended for that utility. Plus, 6 ASI's instead of 5.
- It doesn't matter what they will be used for; it matters what it can be used for. If I'm playing a Wizard and blowing all my slots in damaging stuff, someone will eventually say 'hey, there are better things you can do occasionally'. So you either have to consider you won't use everything in flourishes, or that you'll be playing suboptimally, because sometimes inspiring will be the right thing to do, period.
- Sure, that level 14 ability is nice. It's a shame that by then you won't be able to compete damage-wise with any decent martial.

The only area where you can say that Swords will pull ahead of a Rogue as a duelist is in utility/healing, things that you don't really need to duel at all.



I've only played as bard (which is why I only talked about the good points of Bard, as I don't know Rogue/Trickster myself).

Personally I like the ability to completely control the battlefield if I want, and if I get into a fight I can deal respectable damage while standing there with 20+ AC. If I get in trouble, force the enemy to run away (causing them to take a bunch of OA damage on their travels). If the party is unprepared, I can take a bunch of the enemy out of the fight for a couple rounds.

Depending on how you set it up, you can do a lot with bard. And Sword Bard can do all the same, without being squishy or helpless when their spell slots run out.

Rogue is (obviously) the stronger pure melee class, and Trickster does give them (very limited) options for some spellcasting. If / when I play a rogue in a game (it will happen soon enough I'm sure, I do like a rogue), I would be hard pressed to decide between Trickster and ...I dunno, Swashbuckler or Assassin maybe. They all have nice points. You really can't go too far wrong.

But I still think he would enjoy the flexibility and options of a sword bard.

[Dudewithknives]

Rogue will do better damage. Everyone knows that.


Something bards can't ever do?
He's talking about playing a Tabaxi Blade with Mobile.
Movement 40 base, movement 50 with no OAs against targets if he attacks, and go ahead and toss a racial speed boost or a Flourish on there for good measure.
He'll get around just fine, thank you.
As for the rest, he's trading a bit of defense for a lot of utility.


Maybe you missed the part where he already stated what his minimum stats would be.


Unless you don't hand them out like that?
Or unless you get high enough level to use the Flourishes with a d6 for free, saving your actual dice for the party?
Not every bard needs to play support all the time. If someone came to the table with a Blade described as a duelist, the rest of the party better not expect a lot of BI dice passed around. That's about on the same level as the party getting mad because the Arcane Archer Fighter isn't tanking. It's not his fault that you have unreasonable expectations.

Also since Swords Bard does not have shield proficiency anymore and can use their weapon as a focus it makes TWF really reasonable do damage at level 10 for a pair of rapiers would be.
Which with these stats I can start with a 20 dex and with a free feat at level 1 that is 4 feats to possibly be used. 1 ASI for +2 Dex, 1 for DW, 2 more for other great things like magic initiate, or whatever

(1d8 + 5) x 3 or ~ 28.5 with no inspiration used.
Which is much closer to the rogue, however the rogue
Also since the rogue in question was not dual wielding it seems that means they only get one chance to hit, so there is a chance they do no damage at all compared to the bard getting 3 attacks.
Also, if the bard wanted they could take Shadowblade at level 10 to cast it from a much higher spell slot that the rogue will ever see so the damage could actually be.
If just using a pair of shorts words that would still be (1d6 + 5) x3 ~ 25.5 using no resources at all. or 30.5 and + ~5AC if using 1 inspiration.

(4d8 +5) x2 and off hand of 1d6 + 5 without even taking the Dual Wielder feat if it was not seen as good enough.
That would be 54.5 damage, with rather easy advantage.
The rogue will never get a weapon that does 4d8, and the bard is still a full caster.

[DivisibleByZero]

Which with these stats I can start with a 20 dex and with a free feat at level 1 that is 4 feats to possibly be used. 1 ASI for +2 Dex, 1 for DW, 2 more for other great things like magic initiate, or whatever.

Mobile, Magic Initiate (since you seem to want it still), Defensive Duelist (works out to be similar to Uncanny Dodge in many cases), Martial Adept (it fits the theme perfectly and shores up as another potential "flourish" - and if I were the DM I'd allow a Blade to increase his BI dice by one instead of gaining a MannyDie), Dual Wielder (not as useless as on a Rogue), Lucky, Resilient, Tough, Skilled, there are almost too many good choices here for you.

[Dudewithknives]

Mobile, Magic Initiate (since you seem to want it still), Defensive Duelist (works out to be similar to Uncanny Dodge in many cases), Martial Adept (it fits the theme perfectly and shores up as another potential "flourish" - and if I were the DM I'd allow a Blade to increase his BI dice by one instead of gaining a MannyDie), Dual Wielder (not as useless as on a Rogue), Lucky, Resilient, Tough, Skilled, there are almost too many good choices here for you.

The only reason I want Magic initiate is because of the fact it would be nice to have a better damaging ranged cantrip than bards normally get, and I wish I could do this unarmored and Mage Armor is as close as I will get.

It would be nice if there was just a Ring of Mage armor out there. I could see that being Uncommon.

[DivisibleByZero]

The only reason I want Magic initiate is because of the fact it would be nice to have a better damaging ranged cantrip than bards normally get, and I wish I could do this unarmored and Mage Armor is as close as I will get.

It would be nice if there was just a Ring of Mage armor out there. I could see that being Uncommon.

Studded + 20 Dex = 17
18 if you end up taking DW
+1dX with a Flourish (free at lvl 14)
+ Prof if you take Defensive Duelist
Your AC is fine, and it's only 1pt less than Mage Armor, or equal/better with magic studded.

Shortbow: (1d6+5)*2= ~17, + potential flourish again
average cantrip 4d8= ~18

You don't need either, unless it's specifically for fulff/thematic purposes.

[Dudewithknives]

Studded + 20 Dex = 17
18 if you end up taking DW
+1dX with a Flourish (free at lvl 14)
+ Prof if you take Defensive Duelist
Your AC is fine, and it's only 1pt less than Mage Armor, or equal/better with magic studded.

Shortbow: (1d6+5)*2= ~17, + potential flourish again
average cantrip 4d8= ~18

You don't need either, unless it's specifically for fulff/thematic purposes.

The armor is for thematic purposes, trying to go unarmored and all, the cantrips are just filling space because they come with the feat.