Is Hexblade's Curse OP?

[Ivor_The_Mad]

Am I the only one that thinks that the curse ability hexblades get is op? At first level they get the curse ability where they can curse a single creature within 30ft for up to a minute and they get a bonus against that creature = to there proficiency modifier, they crit 19-20. and when the creature dies they gain health = to warlock level + cha modifier.

[Dalebert]

All you did was repeat the feature. What's your argument for why it's OP? I'm not necessarily disagreeing but you didn't actually make an argument.

[Talamare]

The heal?
Eh who cares

Being able to Crit on a 19-20, is pretty amazing
Dealing Bonus Damage that is higher than a Raging Barbarian is pretty insane!

but... it's only 1 target

[Ivor_The_Mad]

Oh yah sorry. It sounds OP to me and it was pretty good when I used it. It is similar to something high level rangers get. the main reason I made this post was (1 to see peoples opinion on this ability and (2 because the hexblade class in general seems op compared to others and I wanted to see who agrees.

[Dalebert]

(2 because the hexblade class in general seems op compared to others and I wanted to see who agrees.

Oh THAT I am inclined to agree with. If you look at them on the aggregate compared to other warlock archetypes they are very front-loaded--hexblade curse, medium armor & shields, use cha for weapon attacks. But this ability in isolation? It's nice but it's also 1/rest. And you gotta be careful about looking at an ability in a vacuum. ARchetypes are designed with all the features in mind. Some are are a little weak early on but get better things later or vice-versa for instance.

[ad_hoc]

Hexblade is ridiculously overpowered.

Both Curse and Medium Armour/Shields are better abilities than any of the other patrons get at 1st level. And Hexblade gets both.

[Skyblaze]

I would say its OP because of where it is in the warlock level placement. If it improved the curse over time, say 1st level the regain HP, lvl 10 you get the bigger crit range, and 14 you get the +proficiency mod to damage...that would be another thing. But you get all of it at level one, which is ridiculous.

[Asmotherion]

The real deal is using it together with hex. A lot of nova damage from level 1. Scales well with a hand crossbow at level 1 or magic stone.

It's the warlock class design to get synergy from spells and class abilities for stacking maximum damage output. That's how it works.

[the_brazenburn]

Hexblade is ridiculously overpowered.

Both Curse and Medium Armour/Shields are better abilities than any of the other patrons get at 1st level. And Hexblade gets both.

But now you're just proving the OP's point.

If Curse is better than any of the other 1st level patron abilities, then of COURSE it's overpowered!

[Vaz]

Am I the only one that thinks that the curse ability hexblades get is op? At first level they get the curse ability where they can curse a single creature within 30ft for up to a minute and they get a bonus against that creature = to there proficiency modifier, they crit 19-20. and when the creature dies they gain health = to warlock level + cha modifier.

No, they gain temp HP. So what?

Also I like how 'hit stuff' is now 'overpowered'. Ad_hoc, you consistently make me giggle. Where do you come uo with your jokes?

[Dudewithknives]

But now you're just proving the OP's point.

If Curse is better than any of the other 1st level patron abilities, then of COURSE it's overpowered!

Curse by itself being OP is debatable, Hexblade itself being OP is not.

[Mikal]

Hexblade curse is not OP
Hex Warrior is not OP
Hexblade is not OP

[Vaz]

Hexblade curse is not OP
Hex Warrior is not OP
Hexblade is not OP

Man knows 👌

[Finlam]

The real deal is using it together with hex. A lot of nova damage from level 1. Scales well with a hand crossbow at level 1 or magic stone.

It's the warlock class design to get synergy from spells and class abilities for stacking maximum damage output. That's how it works.
Since you only get 1 bonus action per turn, I don't think it's that big of a deal. It takes 2 turns to make this happen, you've just blown a spell slot and a short rest future, and it requires your concentration: getting 1d6 + prof extra damage on a hit seems like a fair trade since the +prof goes away when the target dies.

Also, the heal is amazing.

Let me reiterate: AM-AZ-ING

Since the curse does not require concentration, the heal can go off after you're unconscious. Short of a contingency, there is no other way in the game to bring yourself back up from unconsciousness. The best part is that your allies don't even have to revive you, they can optimize their actions by attacking enemies that they were already going to attack and then *boom* you're back on your feet.


The ability is OP because it has something really good for everyone: HP regain for tanking builds, extra crit and damage for strikers, and it does not compete with concentration. It would not be OP at level 10, maybe not at level 5 or 6, but at level 1 it is definitely OP.

[Vaz]

The hexblade heal isn't 'amazing'. It is giving you Temp HP, which puts you in line with Fighter HP AFTER you have killed something, with a max of +5HP.

[Provo]

Also, the heal is amazing.

Let me reiterate: AM-AZ-ING

Since the curse does not require concentration, the heal can go off after you're unconscious. Short of a contingency, there is no other way in the game to bring yourself back up from unconsciousness. The best part is that your allies don't even have to revive you, they can optimize their actions by attacking enemies that they were already going to attack and then *boom* you're back on your feet.

The lack of concentration IS strong.

However, the curse goes away when you are unconscious (the description of the curse explicitly states this)

[Skyblaze]

The hexblade heal isn't 'amazing'. It is giving you Temp HP, which puts you in line with Fighter HP AFTER you have killed something, with a max of +5HP.

Its not temp HP though, you regain HP.

"If the cursed target dies, you regain hit points equal
to your warlock level + your Charisma modifier (mini- mum of 1 hit point)."

As opposed to the fiend pack:

"Starting at 1st level, when you reduce a hostile creature to 0 hit points, you gain Temporary Hit Points equal to your Charisma modifier + your warlock level (minimum of 1)."

[Sception]

Not really? Again, until late levels it's only against a single enemy per rest. The damage bonus should probably scale with warlock level, instead of proficiency bonus, which scales with character level.

Hexblade looks weird, and becomes, arguably, way too dipable, not because any of its features are unreasonable compared to other non-warlock characters, but rather because it's both a fully functional warlock patron and a stealth fix to the blade pact at the same time, and due to the levels that patron features land on anyone can dip hexblade to get the fixed bladelock pact boon two levels before the boon itself.

It's ok as is, but if you're concerned about the balance of hexblades vs. other bladelocks and with the dippability of hexblade in general in games that allow multiclassing, then I'd recommend the following changes:


Take hex warrior out of hexblade and add it to the level 3 pact of the blade feature. If you're doing this, you can make it apply to your pact blade only and not bother with the meditate on a weapon bit, but if you do that you might want to allow the pact blade itself to be summoned as a pair of matching light weapons for dual wielders, so you're not accidentally removing the ability to dual wield from the existing hexblade. Maybe make that part of the 'improved pact blade' invocation, along with the ability to make ranged weapons?
Make the curse damage scale with warlock level. Easiest way to do that is to make it two damage at level 1, 4 damage with the second patron feature at level 6, and 6 damage with the final patron feature at level... 14, I think? This in addition to the other benefits.


A plain hexblade ends up about the same, at least from level 3 on. At levels 1 & 2, you're stuck blasting, but that's not that huge an inconvenience, imo. Especially for those who dip a level or two of fighter or paladin at the start of their build, as is already common regardless. Multiclassing bladelock is still strong for paladins & other cha gishes - as it should be since there's a good thematic fit there - but it requires a more substantial investment, and, as with pure bladelocks, you're free to choose patron for thematic rather than mechanical reasons (fiend for oathbreakers/tyrants, fey for ancients, etc). Bladelocks would get a real choice in patrons since they'll get medium armor and cha to melee attacks with their pact blades regardless of patron choice. Hexlocks, well, they don't have more choice in pact boons than they currently do, book and chain hexlocks are currently perfectly playable, but without hex warrior they're no longer pushed towards blade over the others. Probably rename and refluff the hexlock slightly for the same reason.

[Vaz]

Its not temp HP though, you regain HP.

"If the cursed target dies, you regain hit points equal
to your warlock level + your Charisma modifier (mini- mum of 1 hit point)."

As opposed to the fiend pack:

"Starting at 1st level, when you reduce a hostile creature to 0 hit points, you gain Temporary Hit Points equal to your Charisma modifier + your warlock level (minimum of 1)."

Oh wow, my bad. Conflating that and the spectres Temp HP after checking. Although that still doesn't change that you have to expend a short rest resource and have taken that damage to be on par (+/- spare change) with any other decent melee type in the game.

[Ganymede]

The Hexblade patron definitely gives a suite of abilities at first level that are clearly better than the other patrons. It's definitely better than the Great Old One, which only grants a ribbon, and the curse is arguably better than the features of the other two patrons.

I think this is because they used the Hexblade patron as a way to retrofit features for melee warlocks that should have already been a part of the pact weapon boon.

[rbstr]

On its own I think it's a pretty good feature. Proficiency to damage is dumb because of multi-classing but the actual damage added is fine.

The problem with the archetype is that it gets the curse and Martial Weapon, Armor and Shield proficiency.
Fey-locks get a one/rest one-round fear or charm. That is all. There's no and.

It's like this because they're probably as tired of "Blade Pact should give a **** load of extra features without cost" whines as I am so they gave up and just gave the Hexblade everything.

[SwordMeow]

Yes, hexblade is OP. It's a warlock that does more damage with eldritch blast and has better defenses.

[ad_hoc]

The main issue that people are having when looking at the abilities is comparing them to abilities that have more costs.

For example, comparing Hexblade's Curse to Hex. Hex requires a spell known, a spell slot, and concentration. There is no comparison.

Instead lets pretend the 1st level patron abilities are invocations. We will ignore cha to hit/dmg.

Medium Armour/Shields results in +5 AC - S tier
Hexblade's Curse 1/short rest damage boost plus almost guaranteed healing - S tier

Fiend THP on creature kill - Compare to False Life: False Life ensures THP at beginning of battle which is important and Fiend may not fire b/c character needs the kill. Is superior to False Life but ultimately a few HP isn't nearly as good as higher AC as monsters do more and more damage. I would rather Tomb of Levistus to get me out of hot water when I need it most. Fiend is better if campaign contains a lot of mooks. - A tier invocation

Telepathy - Utility/Theme invocation. I would probably rather 2 skills, disguise at will, etc. - C tier

frighten/charm 1 round - The issue here is the action to activate it. I would use it for free, but don't want to pay an invocation for it. - D tier


Even if I were to grant that Curse and Armour are both only A tier invocations, Hexblade gets both.

[sithlordnergal]

Hexblade can be OP, but it is not due to the curse ability alone. Rather, the OPness comes from the curse and the Spectre they get. And to give an example:

I recently played an AL Epic event, I forget the exact name of it but it happened in Port Nyanzaru. The Warlock managed to kill a Humanoid and get a Spectre during tbe first mission. Seeing as you can't take long rests during an Epic, the Spectre stayed with us for the rest of the Epic. And it trivialized 2-3 of quests in an epic with only 5 quests.

In one quest, we had to sneak into a house to steal documents without being caught. A wizard used Arcane Eye to scout the house without being seen, then the Spectre used it's ability to fly through walls to easily grab what we needed. We literally finished the quest in less then 10 rounds.

In another quest the same thing happened. We were faced with a hallway thay had traps in it, so the Spectre went through the walls totally unaffected by the traps to disarm them for us and open the door.

In the third quest we needed to murder a minotaur pirate champion and rescue a halfling or something like that. We sent in a Quetzalquoalt that was immune to non-magical weapons to do the fighting, and had the Spectre float in and save the halfling since it could float through walls and open the doors and windows for the halfling to escape.

[Citan]

I would say its OP because of where it is in the warlock level placement. If it improved the curse over time, say 1st level the regain HP, lvl 10 you get the bigger crit range, and 14 you get the +proficiency mod to damage...that would be another thing. But you get all of it at level one, which is ridiculous.
I wouldn't have said better. :)

[Snowbluff]

The main issue that people are having when looking at the abilities is comparing them to abilities that have more costs.

For example, comparing Hexblade's Curse to Hex. Hex requires a spell known, a spell slot, and concentration. There is no comparison.

Instead lets pretend the 1st level patron abilities are invocations. We will ignore cha to hit/dmg.

Medium Armour/Shields results in +5 AC - S tier
Hexblade's Curse 1/short rest damage boost plus almost guaranteed healing - S tier

Fiend THP on creature kill - Compare to False Life: False Life ensures THP at beginning of battle which is important and Fiend may not fire b/c character needs the kill. Is superior to False Life but ultimately a few HP isn't nearly as good as higher AC as monsters do more and more damage. I would rather Tomb of Levistus to get me out of hot water when I need it most. Fiend is better if campaign contains a lot of mooks. - A tier invocation

Telepathy - Utility/Theme invocation. I would probably rather 2 skills, disguise at will, etc. - C tier

frighten/charm 1 round - The issue here is the action to activate it. I would use it for free, but don't want to pay an invocation for it. - D tier


Even if I were to grant that Curse and Armour are both only A tier invocations, Hexblade gets both.

The obvious answer is that the other patrons are kinda garbage and undertuned. .-.

[ad_hoc]

The obvious answer is that the other patrons are kinda garbage and undertuned. .-.

Given:

1) The Warlock balance is just fine
2) Not all subclasses from all classes need to be balanced to each other
3) The Warlock subclass is split into patron and pact

It's just fine for the patrons to be on the weak side. Same with the pacts.

[prototype00]

Is it not conversely fine for some patrons to be stronger then? Like the Fiend?

[ad_hoc]

Is it not conversely fine for some patrons to be stronger then? Like the Fiend?

I think the Fiend is in the window of acceptable higher strength. Would it be great if they were closer in balance to one another? Sure. At the same time, as the patrons (until now) didn't have that much power, having a stronger patron only made a small difference in the class powers overall.

This wasn't an Open Hand, Shadow, 4 Elements situation. Hexblade now makes every other patrons look like 4 Elements in comparison.

[Ivor_The_Mad]

On a slightly different note what are some ideal races for a hexblade. I have a tiefling. Are there any better ones?

[Jerrykhor]

Is it not conversely fine for some patrons to be stronger then? Like the Fiend?

I think Fiend is on the sweet spot of power level, as in being powerful enough to be fun, but not so broken that everyone complains about it. Kind of like Lore Bard vs the other Bard archetypes. Its the other Patrons that are too weak, not Fiend being too strong.

The OP part about Hexblade is that it gives too many bonuses for a Patron. The Curse itself is fine. Hex Warrior is fine. Everything combined on top of the usual expanded spell list? Too much.

[rooneg]

On a slightly different note what are some ideal races for a hexblade. I have a tiefling. Are there any better ones?

I'd say Half-Elf is better than Tiefling for warlocks, since they can take Elven Accuracy, but if you don't want to go that way Tiefling is fine.

[samcifer]

It might be OP if...

A. I could remember to ever use it and

B. My groups battles lasted longer than an average of two rounds.

[Snowbluff]

Given:

1) The Warlock balance is just fine
2) Not all subclasses from all classes need to be balanced to each other
3) The Warlock subclass is split into patron and pact

It's just fine for the patrons to be on the weak side. Same with the pacts.
I think it's fine for the subclass to be stronger. Warlock is a little undertuned in some ways. It's really a grind to play the class unless you've got two SR/day, and a lot of the newer mods I've been playing don't allow for it.

On a slightly different note what are some ideal races for a hexblade. I have a tiefling. Are there any better ones?
Yuan Ti Pureblood is generally fantastic. Poison immunity is really nice at lower levels, and Magic Resistance is nice at higher levels.

[Elric VIII]

Playing a Hexblade right now, I don't feel overpowered, but that's because I'm playing it melee. The biggest problem with Hexblade is that it makes blastlock even better.

As a melee striker I found I actually wanted more low level slots. 2 spells per rest is actually quite constricting when you need to use them to defend yourself. Aside from blink and phantasmal killer, the expanded spells spell list is not very good. The smite spells eat concentration, so they are mostly worse than hex (maybe banishing is worth it, I'm not level 9 yet). Warlocks already get mirror image, so blur is not that helpful.

After that you are trading the protection of range for the protection of extra AC. You can surpass agonizing EB damage with PAM/ GWM, but at that point you are dedicating a lot of build resources into it. That's what hexblade really does: it lets you burn more resources to increase you power ceiling.

But curse should really only work on weapon damage.

[Malifice]

The OP part about Hexblade is that it gives too many bonuses for a Patron. The Curse itself is fine. Hex Warrior is fine. Everything combined on top of the usual expanded spell list? Too much.

Im not seeing it.

A 1/ short rest small bonus to damage, 5 percent better crit chance, and a small amount of healing, that only applies against a single target, and it uses your bonus action?

Vs Fiend netting Temp HP each time it kills something, all day every day?

At low levels the Fiend is milking Temp HP almost every single round.

The medium armor (whoopee) and +Cha to hit and damgage brings them to par really. Your Hexblade gets a slightly better AC over the Fiendlock (who has a bunch of always on temp HP anyway).

And Fiends other abilities are amazing. +1d10 to a save 1/short rest. I'll take that over a crappy spectre 1/long rest that dies in a round or two, and requires you to kill a humanoid (that arent exactly commonly encoutnered creatures).

Resistance to damage of choice 'always on' is better than a reaction for a 50% miss chance vs 1 attack per round, that only works against your hexed target.

And 10d10 spike damage from HtH is sweet when compared to the ability to shift your curse (making it an encounter ability instead of 1 target per short rest).

I'd also take Fiends spell list over Hexblades. Fireball from 5th level thank you very much.

Id say they're quite balanced. Im certainly not seeing any OPness here.

[prototype00]

Playing a Hexblade right now, I don't feel overpowered, but that's because I'm playing it melee. The biggest problem with Hexblade is that it makes blastlock even better.

As a melee striker I found I actually wanted more low level slots. 2 spells per rest is actually quite constricting when you need to use them to defend yourself. Aside from blink and phantasmal killer, the expanded spells spell list is not very good. The smite spells eat concentration, so they are mostly worse than hex (maybe banishing is worth it, I'm not level 9 yet). Warlocks already get mirror image, so blur is not that helpful.

After that you are trading the protection of range for the protection of extra AC. You can surpass agonizing EB damage with PAM/ GWM, but at that point you are dedicating a lot of build resources into it. That's what hexblade really does: it lets you burn more resources to increase you power ceiling.

But curse should really only work on weapon damage.

Completely agreed here. The Hexblade is probably well balanced if you are rushing in to mix it up with ogres and Dragons.

If you are an Eldritch Blaster, congrats, I guess? You win?

[Citan]

Im not seeing it.

A 1/ short rest small bonus to damage, 5 percent better crit chance, and a small amount of healing, that only applies against a single target, and it uses your bonus action?

Vs Fiend netting Temp HP each time it kills something, all day every day?

At low levels the Fiend is milking Temp HP almost every single round.

The medium armor (whoopee) and +Cha to hit and damgage brings them to par really. Your Hexblade gets a slightly better AC over the Fiendlock (who has a bunch of always on temp HP anyway).

And Fiends other abilities are amazing. +1d10 to a save 1/short rest. I'll take that over a crappy spectre 1/long rest that dies in a round or two, and requires you to kill a humanoid (that arent exactly commonly encoutnered creatures).

Resistance to damage of choice 'always on' is better than a reaction for a 50% miss chance vs 1 attack per round, that only works against your hexed target.

And 10d10 spike damage from HtH is sweet when compared to the ability to shift your curse (making it an encounter ability instead of 1 target per short rest).

I'd also take Fiends spell list over Hexblades. Fireball from 5th level thank you very much.

Id say they're quite balanced. Im certainly not seeing any OPness here.
But yes it is OP, and it's surprising you don't see it considering your experience.
Not that it would be OP on a pure Warlock. It is OP, extremely OP, because of multiclassing power.

Take Cleric/Fighter/Paladin/Ranger/Barbarian/? multiclass: getting medium armor proficiency.
Take Battlemaster's Manoeuvers: several times per short rest, at 3rd level, they have the ability to inflict additional damage.
Take Champion's level 3 crit.
Take Paladin's Devotion's Sacred Weapon that makes him SAD+ for a fight every short rest for an action.
You get all that encompassed in a nice single ability, AT LEVEL 1. FRIGGING LEVEL ONE.
Of course, it's not the same magnitude (especially manoeuvers who had extra effects, or Champion that has it permanently, or Paladin who has it against any enemy). But it's still more than extremely good for a single level dip, especially since you also get every other usual benefit from Warlocks.
But let's focus solely on Patron benefit comparison at level 1.

Be Paladin
Consider Fiend Warlock dip: you'd get 3-6 THP on kill for the rest of your life. Pretty meh right? After all, you are supposed to take hits, and you don't have great mobility in the first place. Fat chance is you will forget about this feature's existence once you get level 6 or so.

Now consider Hexblade: proficiencies are wasted, but you can easily focus on CHA, you get as good or better than Vengeance at slaying single enemies (especially if you are Devotion: that first turn of prep will be more than reimbursed as soon as the third one starts) until/unless Vengeance can Haste himself then come back on par because you get better critical chance (on which you will obviously Smite) as well as better overall accuracy than any other Paladin, and possibly better balanced array if you go medium armor (because you can bump CHA while keeping 14-16 STR without remorse) and better damage because character-scaling bonus.

Be Fighter
Consider Fiend Warlock dip: you'd sacrifice (ultimately) 4th attack, and considerably delaying important features like 3rd attack, for a 3-6 THP, on a class that doesn't have great mobility in the first place and is generally sustaining several attacks per turn.
Otherwise said, it's a pure waste past level 4 or so (again, putting aside other Warlock benefits).

Now consider Hexblade dips: unless you are a Champion (in which case it's really lackluster), you get one of the emblematic features of Champion's archetype when it really counts, as well as bonus damage that scales with both character (proficiency) and Fighter class (Extra Attack, 3rd attack).
Even better if you are going Eldricht Knight: you can completely dump INT and STR, go DEX&CHA and enjoy powerful mix between attacks and spells.

Be a Sorcerer
Consider Fiend Warlock dip: you won't get anything good from the THP before a good while, because you are lacking powerful enough attacks to really make it work on a regular basis. Once you get there, 3-6 won't make any difference in the heat of the fight.
Consider Hexblade warlock dip: in one shot, you address one of the biggest weakness of Sorcerer (defense), give him a great way to make use of Chromatic Bolt (although niche) and Scorching Ray (no more niche now), as well as weapon cantrips.

Be a Monk
If you were going for a Warlock Hulticlass for Devil's Sight (Shadow) or Hex/Mirror Image (other), you'd have to choose a Patron anyways.
6 THP won't matter later, while extra damage works well with up to 4 attacks, and extra crit chance synergizes with Stunning Strike or Open Hand / 4E effets (shove for advantage).

Be a Bladesinger or a Tempest Cleric that was tempted to get decent CHA to multiclass Sorcerer or Warlock.
For a Bladesinger who can get up to 4 attacks for a whole fight at level 7, Fiend is decent, but extremely subpar compared to Hexblade.
For a Tempest Cleric who'd consider multiclassing Sorcerer (Chromatic Orb Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, metamagics, weapon cantrips) or Warlock (short rest slots, weapon cantrips) to mix with Channel Divinity, Fiend Warlock dip would be worthless: you already have many concentration spells to use, and 6THP... Confer above.
Hexblade? Now you can hope for a crit on your maximized attack spell or Booming Blade, and you at least get extra damage for the whole fight on that important creature.
Even better if you actually multiclass deep into Hexblade, getting Elemental Weapon to trigger Tempest's level 6 effect by adding lighting energy to your Booming Blade attacks.

Could detail in a similar manner for Bard, especially Valor/Swords (3+ attacks, CHA dependency), Barbarian (crit fisher), Swashbuckler Rogue (CHA dependency), and maybe I forgot about a few others.

And then you have to reel in all the usual benefits of a Warlock dip for any class, which ranges from "easy-peasy maxi gain" (CHA-based classes) to "overly glorified Magic Initiate" (other classes). Like Hex on a short rest for a Fighter which has hothing else to do with concentration in the first place. ;)

Of course, all Hexblade benefits only last against one enemy. But many classes are well-equipped enough to keep all their resources for one or two big novas in the most important encounters of the session. And it's rare for a very risky fight to boast all equally dangerous and hard to beat enemies. Most of the time, it's 1-2 (rarely three) AAA enemies, a small group of AA and small fries around to be used as meat shield. So the fact it's limited to 1/enemy/short rest it's usually not that important (especially if your party has strategies to secure short rests, but that's another matter entirely) because it makes much easier to down the really threatening ones.

Basically, any class that has either attack-based nova, significant dependency to CHA or 3+ attack and wants to take the role of striker in a group has no reason NOT to dip into Hexblade Warlock, unless player is pretty sure to reach level 20 and is player a class whose capstone is worth it.

THAT is why it's overpowered: you get too much too early. Just bring the scaling damage and crit at level 3 / remove the scaling part of damage should be enough to balance it...

[Vaz]

Everyone knows me and Mal don't get on, but what the ****. 'You can't see it despite your experience', basically?

How about it is exactly what Mal says, and I say, in that because of our experience, it's not OP?

Our experience counts for nothing, because we disagree with you? Behave yourself Citan et al.

[Citan]

Everyone knows me and Mal don't get on, but what the ****. 'You can't see it despite your experience', basically?

How about it is exactly what Mal says, and I say, in that because of our experience, it's not OP?

Our experience counts for nothing, because we disagree with you? Behave yourself Citan et al.
Lol. Good things Malifice is smart enough to properly get what I meant, since you are far too emotional to have a clear mind on this and deform what I say into personal attacks (although you weren't even the one I talked to).

I gave my view on why I think Malifice missed the point, first and foremost from a theorical point of view (actually trying to not weight in my own experience -which would be different from Malifice too- because this is something that wildly varies from one group of players/dm to another so it's hard to say that one is better than another).
And I think (I hope) I was clear enough in saying that for me the big imbalance problem was only in the case of games allowing multiclassing (although those tend to be the majority from what I read, in any case majority around me but YMMV). For single-classes, everyone more of less evens out in the long run (well, Hexblade is still superior imo, but in a very reasonable and restricted aspect).
If he's interested in argumenting back, I'll be glad to read and argument further. Otherwise, then no problem, everyone has his/her own life to attend to.
Otherwise said, I never pretended anytime that anyone's experience was worthless.

You are the one taking things personally for no reason and being uselessly agressive, so you are so the who should behave. No harm done though.
Feel free to vent off if it helps you. I don't care really. Everyone has bad humors sometimes. ;)
Although honestly, bringing proper counter-arguments to what I said would be more constructive but whatever. ^^
Have a good night.

[Vaz]

Get your head out of your sphincter.

[Talamare]

Given:

1) The Warlock balance is just fine
2) Not all subclasses from all classes need to be balanced to each other
3) The Warlock subclass is split into patron and pact

It's just fine for the patrons to be on the weak side. Same with the pacts.

Warlock is extremely poorly balanced

It's power spikes are in many awkward locations, too much of which comes too early

[Citan]

Get your head out of your sphincter.
Unfortunately, I never reached the level of body flexiness required to achieve such a feat. Congratulations to you if you manage to do that though (I congrats being that flexible obviously, not sticking head in own ass): keeping body flexible is one of the key to longevity, and it does take regular effort to maintain. :)
And since you are, unsurprisingly, not ready for any constructive argument, I won't reply any further to you. Feel free to get the last word if it can make you happy. :)

[ShikomeKidoMi]

I'm of the opinion that Hexblade's Curse is broken for a level one ability. Especially with also getting HexWarrior the same level.

After you level up a bit, it's not so much of an issue, except for all the multiclassers out there. This lets them grab a chunk of abilities with one level and then go grab more from another class.

[Citan]

I'm of the opinion that Hexblade's Curse is broken for a level one ability. Especially with also getting HexWarrior the same level.

After you level up a bit, it's not so much of an issue, except for all the multiclassers out there. This lets them grab a chunk of abilities with one level and then go grab more from another class.
You expressed what I meant in a nice, concise way. Thanks ;)

[ShikomeKidoMi]

You expressed what I meant in a nice, concise way. Thanks ;)

Yeah, probably the biggest issue with Hexblades isn't pure Hexblades, it's all those Hexblade 1/Paladins.

[Asmotherion]

But yes it is OP, and it's surprising you don't see it considering your experience.
Not that it would be OP on a pure Warlock. It is OP, extremely OP, because of multiclassing power.

Take Cleric/Fighter/Paladin/Ranger/Barbarian/? multiclass: getting medium armor proficiency.
Take Battlemaster's Manoeuvers: several times per short rest, at 3rd level, they have the ability to inflict additional damage.
Take Champion's level 3 crit.
Take Paladin's Devotion's Sacred Weapon that makes him SAD+ for a fight every short rest for an action.
You get all that encompassed in a nice single ability, AT LEVEL 1. FRIGGING LEVEL ONE.
Of course, it's not the same magnitude (especially manoeuvers who had extra effects, or Champion that has it permanently, or Paladin who has it against any enemy). But it's still more than extremely good for a single level dip, especially since you also get every other usual benefit from Warlocks.
But let's focus solely on Patron benefit comparison at level 1.

Be Paladin
Consider Fiend Warlock dip: you'd get 3-6 THP on kill for the rest of your life. Pretty meh right? After all, you are supposed to take hits, and you don't have great mobility in the first place. Fat chance is you will forget about this feature's existence once you get level 6 or so.

Now consider Hexblade: proficiencies are wasted, but you can easily focus on CHA, you get as good or better than Vengeance at slaying single enemies (especially if you are Devotion: that first turn of prep will be more than reimbursed as soon as the third one starts) until/unless Vengeance can Haste himself then come back on par because you get better critical chance (on which you will obviously Smite) as well as better overall accuracy than any other Paladin, and possibly better balanced array if you go medium armor (because you can bump CHA while keeping 14-16 STR without remorse) and better damage because character-scaling bonus.

Be Fighter
Consider Fiend Warlock dip: you'd sacrifice (ultimately) 4th attack, and considerably delaying important features like 3rd attack, for a 3-6 THP, on a class that doesn't have great mobility in the first place and is generally sustaining several attacks per turn.
Otherwise said, it's a pure waste past level 4 or so (again, putting aside other Warlock benefits).

Now consider Hexblade dips: unless you are a Champion (in which case it's really lackluster), you get one of the emblematic features of Champion's archetype when it really counts, as well as bonus damage that scales with both character (proficiency) and Fighter class (Extra Attack, 3rd attack).
Even better if you are going Eldricht Knight: you can completely dump INT and STR, go DEX&CHA and enjoy powerful mix between attacks and spells.

Be a Sorcerer
Consider Fiend Warlock dip: you won't get anything good from the THP before a good while, because you are lacking powerful enough attacks to really make it work on a regular basis. Once you get there, 3-6 won't make any difference in the heat of the fight.
Consider Hexblade warlock dip: in one shot, you address one of the biggest weakness of Sorcerer (defense), give him a great way to make use of Chromatic Bolt (although niche) and Scorching Ray (no more niche now), as well as weapon cantrips.

Be a Monk
If you were going for a Warlock Hulticlass for Devil's Sight (Shadow) or Hex/Mirror Image (other), you'd have to choose a Patron anyways.
6 THP won't matter later, while extra damage works well with up to 4 attacks, and extra crit chance synergizes with Stunning Strike or Open Hand / 4E effets (shove for advantage).

Be a Bladesinger or a Tempest Cleric that was tempted to get decent CHA to multiclass Sorcerer or Warlock.
For a Bladesinger who can get up to 4 attacks for a whole fight at level 7, Fiend is decent, but extremely subpar compared to Hexblade.
For a Tempest Cleric who'd consider multiclassing Sorcerer (Chromatic Orb Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, metamagics, weapon cantrips) or Warlock (short rest slots, weapon cantrips) to mix with Channel Divinity, Fiend Warlock dip would be worthless: you already have many concentration spells to use, and 6THP... Confer above.
Hexblade? Now you can hope for a crit on your maximized attack spell or Booming Blade, and you at least get extra damage for the whole fight on that important creature.
Even better if you actually multiclass deep into Hexblade, getting Elemental Weapon to trigger Tempest's level 6 effect by adding lighting energy to your Booming Blade attacks.

Could detail in a similar manner for Bard, especially Valor/Swords (3+ attacks, CHA dependency), Barbarian (crit fisher), Swashbuckler Rogue (CHA dependency), and maybe I forgot about a few others.

And then you have to reel in all the usual benefits of a Warlock dip for any class, which ranges from "easy-peasy maxi gain" (CHA-based classes) to "overly glorified Magic Initiate" (other classes). Like Hex on a short rest for a Fighter which has hothing else to do with concentration in the first place. ;)

Of course, all Hexblade benefits only last against one enemy. But many classes are well-equipped enough to keep all their resources for one or two big novas in the most important encounters of the session. And it's rare for a very risky fight to boast all equally dangerous and hard to beat enemies. Most of the time, it's 1-2 (rarely three) AAA enemies, a small group of AA and small fries around to be used as meat shield. So the fact it's limited to 1/enemy/short rest it's usually not that important (especially if your party has strategies to secure short rests, but that's another matter entirely) because it makes much easier to down the really threatening ones.

Basically, any class that has either attack-based nova, significant dependency to CHA or 3+ attack and wants to take the role of striker in a group has no reason NOT to dip into Hexblade Warlock, unless player is pretty sure to reach level 20 and is player a class whose capstone is worth it.

THAT is why it's overpowered: you get too much too early. Just bring the scaling damage and crit at level 3 / remove the scaling part of damage should be enough to balance it...


Xanathar sure Is a powerfull Beholder; He made an awkward new paralel universe were I don't always dissagree with Citan on Warlock stuff from time to time. O_O Good analysis.

[Kobard]

Warlock is extremely poorly balanced

It's power spikes are in many awkward locations, too much of which comes too earlyIMHO, a lot of warlock dips (sans Hexblade issues) could be prevented with one simple invocation adjustment: a 5th/6th level requirement for Agonizing Blast, which puts it in a similar position as a lot of other blasters getting +Casting Stat to Cantrips at around that level.